Selling Products & Building An Audience With Tracy Hazzard From The Profit With Podcasting Podcast With Noah Tetzner

Generating product sales through your show, building a niche podcast audience, and insights about the future of the industry. Those are the topics of today's episode. I'm Noah Tetzner, and this is Profit with Podcasting.

My guest today is a prolific podcast host or co host of five different shows with over 2600 episodes and interviews. As the CEO of Brandcasters, Inc. Potitize.com she makes it a practice for all of the executive team, herself included, to start a new podcast every year. She's a former Ink columnist and has illustrious experience in media. And I'm so excited to be joined today by the one and only Tracy Hazzard. Tracy, welcome to the show.

Thanks for having me, Noah. It's kind of fun to get to talk industry with another industry expert.

Well, thank you very much, Tracy. It's truly a real treat to be joined by you. And there is so much going on in the podcasting industry right now as we're recording this in October of 2021. And I am blown away by the opportunities that podcasters and marketers and consultants and CEOs and so forth find themselves confronted with. But before we get into, I would love to hear about your own personal story, you know, regarding how you, like, got to where you are at this point in time and space in the podcasting industry. So for those unfamiliar with you, could you just sort of take us, you know, briefly along that journey that led to poditize.com yeah, absolutely.

My husband and I had a design business. We design products that you buy every single day still today at Costco, Walmart, Target, things like that. And we did that for almost, almost 22 years at the point that we realized that industry was changing so we could no longer design for Martha Stewart when she could just buy straight from China and then have her team do the styling. So we weren't set up to be that kind of person in the middle. We had to figure out how to shift our business, which is really common for a lot of my clients, actually. You know, you get to that point where the industry is moving around you. And so we realized we were either going to have to step out front and be the design celebrity, or we were going to have to do some kind of completely different business. So we decided to test both at the same time. And we were right at the cusp of 3D printing, becoming desktop capable. And we'd use 3D printing in our lives, in our businesses. We'd used it, but it was really expensive. And so this was this opportunity to use it to maybe make end products. And so we could be both designers and celebrities who are making these great 3D print product lines. Or, you know, maybe we just skill up on what we were doing with it and use it in a less expensive way for our clients. So that's what we decided and we decided we would dive into it. So we bought a 3D printer. We did all of this and it was terrible. Like, everything we designed turned out like junk, like plastic junk, right? And so I thought, there's a real story here. Because if other, if we are experienced with 20 plus years of design, can't get something Instagram able out of our 3D printer, then who can, right? And so we said, there's a story here. What should we do? My husband's like, let's do a YouTube channel. I was like, then I'd have to have my hair done. And like, it just wouldn't be, you know, it was. YouTube wasn't casual and live streaming didn't exist. And so this is 2014. And we said, let's start a podcast. Because I'd been listening to some and I thought, this sounds like we could do this and we could add videos of the machine, like, you know, video. Video we called them, we called them video accents, video bonuses, things like that. And so we said we could that. So that's what we did. And we started a podcast in about three months. It took us total to start it up. And that was all the research, everything we did. And when we launched in, I think we launched in May, May of that year, we ended up by October having 25,000 listeners and were featured in Forbes. The podcast was called WTFF, which is the geeky term for 3D printing. Not the WT part, but the FFF is fused filament fabrication. And so then about within a year, we were at 100,000 and people kept to us, what are you doing? And will you teach me how to do it? And I said, look, I don't want to make a course. I don't want to teach you. I'll tell you everything you need to know. And after I would tell them, they would go hand me a credit card and go, will you just do it for me? And that's what we ended up with. Our first 10 clients. That's exactly what happened. You know, that is exciting.

And the rest is history, as they say.

Yeah, it took us until 2017 to decide to spin it off into its own entity. And we had 100 clients at that point. So we were like, oh, I guess we better. We were in business right now in a totally different business. And so it took another year before we shut our design business down.

So were those initial clients and those initial relationships, you know, were those contacts that you had in your design business or those people that you, you know, were introduced to through wtff?

No. So actually, we, you know, I did a lot of speaking on the circuit on innovation. I had my podcast, got me my ink column on innovation, and that got me a lot of speaking events. So these were people I met at entrepreneur conferences, at tech conferences, at various places that I spoke with. A lot of them were other speakers on the stage who were like, I've got a podcast, and mine's not doing as well. And, you know. You know, I've been thinking about starting a podcast to go along with my book. So they all were authors, and I was this podcaster speaking on stages where no other podcaster was really speaking. And that's what happened. So they were in a. It was like, not in the podcasting industry at all. So the funny thing is, is that I was listening to your show and I was listening to your interview with Dan from Podcast Move. And the thing is, I've never been to podcast movement. Still to this day, like, I. And it just almost always happens that when those conferences are going on, I'm speaking at some other conference that's somewhere else, that's in a different industry or a different area, and that's how my. My journey went for where I was. Where I was located. So we were located in front of a lot of aspiring podcasters who weren't in the know, and that was the difference for us. That's what happened. But those first 10 clients, all but one of them are still podcasting with us today.

Oh, that is so wonderful. That is so wonderful. And I think that, you know, for those of us who work in this industry, at least, you know, my experience, and maybe yours has been different. The people who do well in podcasting are those who are coachable and those who generally come from outside of the industry. Because I think there's a lot of people who, you know, maybe they've been doing a show for a little while, while, and they've listened to all of the podcasts like ours, and they think they know the way, yet, you know, they're just doing, you know, I don't know. I think you have to be coachable to do well in podcasting.

I think you do as well. And I think that's why our formula really worked, because we were at conferences where people were getting a continuing learning. Right. So they were already in that mode of being coachable or they wouldn't come to the conference to begin with. It doesn't make sense now. You get a lot of people who are, you know, distracted and going after the, you know, the next squirrel. Right. You know, that happens at those conferences too. So. But we built in and we did, actually did a survey last year at the beginning of January 2020. We did the survey to check on why our pod fade rate in our, in our company was so low compared to the industry. So we surveyed a thousand people total, 500 of our own clients and 500 from the industry in general, to understand what was going on. And coachability and interest in continuing learning, particip and support or having someone that they could tap into and ask questions was the number one thing that they cited as the difference between those that didn't pod fade and those that did. And then the second thing that we found was that they had a business strategic focus, which is something that we felt really strongly, is like, if this doesn't fit your business or it doesn't fit your lifestyle or it doesn't fit what, where you want to go in the future, your mission, your messaging, and it doesn't fit that you're not going to stick with it. It's going to be. It's going to be something where you're like, this is really cool. You hit, you know, 11 to 23 episodes, which is where most people quit in the industry, and you're going to be like, that's it. And then the third thing really was that, you know, the, those that didn't have production support and didn't have the capability. I think I just saw an article that came out, I think just today that was saying that a podcaster has to wear like five different skill set hats in order to do their job. You know that you have to know about audio, you have to know about graphics, you have to know about copywriting, because you have to post a great descriptive paragraph and title things. You know, there's all these things that you need to learn, you know, be a great marketer. And that's just too much for most people. So, you know, our clients, obviously they have full production services. They have all this stuff at their, at their ready. They have complete classes if they want to do it themselves, on every single detail about how to do it perfectly. And we keep them updated so that support makes a big difference. And, and that's why people don't quit, because also they come in and they go, I don't have the skill set for this and is way too much work.

Oh, and I think time is our most sacred asset as podcasters because, as you say, we're expected to wear all of these different hats. Copywriter, marketer, you know, prospecting. But Ponotize handles all of that. I mean, from from graphic design to editing and production, you know, all the highest echelon of quality that one could find in the industry. I'm a huge fan myself, and even I understand that potatoes. Don't you guys have some sort of, like, guest program to help people secure interviews?

So we've got some new tech coming, too, to Noah, so that you could help yourself there. So that's going to premiere in 2022. So it's coming out. It'll be a part of your hosting package, so you'll automatically get access to it. But it's what we're testing behind the scenes. So what we found from helping our clients guest on other shows, so not getting guests, but guesting on other shows. What we found was that there was some key criteria to what made a good show. So I partnered up with a few publicists who would pull lists themselves by going through the Apple Top charts and places like that, and they would come up with these lists of like 20 that they wanted to have their client on. And I said, let me match that list. Let me go and find my own 20 list. You put your guest. You put your client on 40 shows, which, you know, is kind of what they wanted. They wanted a big rollout for book launches and things like that. You put your client on all 40 shows and then see which one delivers you the most book sales at the end of the day. And my list of 20 be them every single time that we tested this out. And the reason for that was, is that simply these were podcasts that were deeply in the niche. They were podcasters who are more likely to be successful. They were easier for them to get their clients put on. That was also another thing. So easier for you to do yourself if you want to solicit to be on those shows. They shouldn't require someone to, you know, have to go in through some producer to get on that show. So, you know, that makes it all easier, so more effectiveness. So we took the formula we were using behind the scenes and we turned it into an AI that's now working for us. And in the. In the next year, you'll have a portal to be able to access that.

Oh, that is. That is just wonderful. Now, you know, I'VE talked about its benefits on this show before. But you know, Tracy, certainly you've done a lot of guesting on other shows. In, in your opinion, what are some of the best reasons why you'd want to guest on another podcast?

So if you don't have enough authority. So in other words, if you need to be side by side with someone who has higher authority in your industry or niche, then you should do that. That's the number one reason. So, like, I want to be seen side by side with you, Noah. You know, you want to be seen side by side. That's why you invite me on, right? So, like, it goes both ways. But when we have a mutual authority build going on, it's the best reason to do a podcast. So now I will do and help startup podcasts, but that's because I'm in the industry. But you don't have to do that. You know, that's maybe the mission for you, especially if you've limited time to guests. The second thing that you want is you want a show that has a blog or at least a website that is their own website. Not anchors or spot, you know, anchors or Libsyns or any host website. You want it to be yours. And so if that, if that host has that, then I'm going to get a really great powerful backlink that is a press style backlink. So then I want to put it on my press page so we cross link each other. And now I've got a really super digital footprint authority power building as well. So that's the really the big thing that I look for in most of the shows. And then the third reason is, can I have a good conversation with someone? Because I mean, frankly, I don't want to say the same thing again and again and again every time I go on some show. So I want to have a new conversation to make it interesting and exciting for me and for whoever might be listening to it, who might be attracted. So I'm looking for an audience match and a conversation match.

No, I love that, Tracy. And what are some tips that you would give to listeners who are thinking, okay, you know, I want to appear on other shows, I want to plant my flag of authority. I might even want to grow my own podcast. Like, what are some tips that you would give them, whether that's pitching or how to maximize, you know, those interview opportunities.

So the thing we found is like sort of that standard way of pitching of me, me, me, me, me just doesn't work. So you put out a one sheet that's all about you. And we flip that when we, when we coach our clients, we flip that to being topics that are of interest. And what I can do for your show. How big is my circulation of LinkedIn followers? How many views does my. Do my post get? That kind of information about what the host is going to get from having you on their show is more valuable. So we flip the pitch from being a me focus to being a show focus, which means sometimes you have to customize the pitch. So while we do template the language so that we know we're going to have say a sentence about this, say a sentence about the host, say a sentence about what we're going to bring in from the show, we know what's going to go in there in that templated email, but we're customizing the pieces that belong to this particular show so it doesn't sound cookie cutter and it doesn't make it sound like you sent out a mass mailing to everyone. I mean, there are a lot of shows that I host on my platform and of my clients who get emails all the time and they never have a guest on their show, but they're getting blanketed with it. So it's obvious that, like, oh, I love your show. I listen to it all the time. No, if you did, you wouldn't be sending me an email that says you want a guest on my show.

Right?

So, like, that, that's, you know, that's a dead giveaway that someone doesn't, isn't, doesn't care. They think that shotgun approach is just the way to go. So that's the first thing that we do. The second thing that I think the biggest tip is, is that really be clear about your purpose for doing it. So if you're out there hawking and promoting something and you have a deadline and a launch, you know, podcasting is probably not the best thing for you. You should probably do like, the news rounds shows, that kind of thing, because they're much more timely and in, you know, podcasts launch at all kinds of dates. Some of my clients record out six months in advance, a year in advance, like, it's just not going to work for you if that's your plan. But if you're planning enough in advance to really do something with that and really allow that sort of, I'm going to call it, slow burn of publicity, then you're going to do better and that. And so that's just an approach of, like, why you're doing it. And repurposing is essential. If you're not going to share it if you're not going to put it on your website? Like, if you're not going to do those things, then why are you even bothering? Because you're not getting the maximum value out of it that you can.

Oh, absolutely. Now I'm curious, Tracy, because. And I would actually even love some of your expertise on this. What is your, like, opinion on. Okay. If I'm going to guest on other podcasts, you know, I have a value exchange, like an email opt in or something like that, so that I can build my mailing list. Like maybe when I guess on other podcasts, I offer those listenerships a free ebook in exchange for their email address. Is that something that I should be doing and listeners should be doing? Or might that come across as self aggrandizing to the podcast host?

Yeah, it comes across as digital marketing to your audience. They get it. They're like, oh, someone's just trying to get my email. Our podcast audiences are really smart. Our listeners out there are super smart. They know who does what and who's doing this. My advice and what we teach our clients is to only send people to your website if you've got things that was like, you know, that book you talked about is really cool. Can I give one away? And you might say that on the show. I'd love to give one away. That sounds so valuable. I'm going to send people to my website, to my show site, and I'm going to. And I'm going to do that for you. So I always let the hosts, and we always recommend that the host does any of the promotions or any of the things that they'd like to offer or do. Because then it comes across more as if this host is curious. If I'm curious as the host of the show, then my audience is going to be like, well, Tracy's consuming that. Then I want to consume that. If Noah's got it, I want it. Right. Because they trust us as the host of the show first and foremost.

Yeah. Oh, that. That's so insightful. That's what it is.

Plus, our listeners can't remember other people's web addresses and stuff like that. Right. They can only remember. They're lucky they remember our show name because it's so automatic on our apps.

Exactly, exactly. No, and it's all about relationships. You know, like listeners, aren't these like faceless, nameless robots. I mean, these are individuals consuming your content. And I think, like, that's why that example that you shared of that list of 20 podcasts that people were guesting on did better than the 40 podcasts because those podcasts were filled with audiences of, of real people who were, you know, that niche or that industry. That topic was very relevant to them.

Well, we have clients, you know, and we, we actually turn them down. We tell them we're not the right fit for you. If you want to guest on shows and you want to have only shows that have, you know, a million listeners or half a million listeners, then we're not the place for you. Because your approach is already wrong by numbers. Because I can say that nano and micro influencers on Instagram, I know that they do better. I. I can see that they sell more product at the end of the day than the bigger because the conversion rate is higher on the audience that they're influencing. And it's the same thing in podcasting. If I say, you guys should try this tool, they will do it at a great rate. Right? So when we, we, we did our 3D print podcast for a really long time, and we rarely, if ever, recommended a particular unit or thing that we didn't try out and use ourself. So when we did recommend something, it had a high return on investment for advertiser or for whoever we were recommending. In a lot of times, we didn't. We didn't charge for it. Like, we were just doing it to see what would happen. And so we used to have an average of 30%, 37% return on conversion. So in other words, if we had, we would have like 37% of the audience that listened to a particular episode take action, go to our website, click the link, download whatever it was. Usually they were free. We were, We. We tried not to sell anyone anything. It was just not in the model we did. But so you can imagine if you did have something valuable as a free download, 37% of 1000 listeners is really awesome. Of 100,000 listeners is even more awesome. So you could really get high returns. So we were able to then start charging top dollar for our advertisers when we did finally take some.

Oh, that's so cool. And what I love about Potitize is that you guys understand that it's not just about how big your audience is. I mean, that's qu. Frankly, irrelevant a lot of the time in a podcast. I mean, there's so many opportunities for, you know, for that come along with hosting a show, whether that's prospecting and building relationships with ideal clients or partners, whether that's, you know, building relationships with people who could give you media coverage, whether that's planting your flag of authority, so on and so forth. What are some of the advantages to hosting a podcast that you highlight at Potitize that clients really tap into through your coaching?

So we look at it as an integral part of your business. So we spend a bit of time with our clients at the front. Now we get a lot of people who have a podcast and they move to us and you know, we don't have the opportunity to reset their show, but we take a look at all the technical details to make sure they're right, because so often they're not. The longer it's been since you started launched your show, the more likely to have technical errors in them. Just something simple. Like back when I started my first show, we couldn't use 4,000 characters in our description. If you don't use all 4,000 characters, you're not as searchable as a show launching today that fills that space. It's simple, it's just there's only three things that are searchable under the Apple algorithm. And so if you're not using it all, you're not getting enough keywords in basically. And so like that's, you know, those technical things like, have to be foundational. But beyond that, if I don't strategically match it to what I need most in my business, do I need leads, do I need investors, do I need credibility? If I don't match those things, then I'm actually not going to get what I expect out of it. So I have clients who have, you know, a hundred listeners and generate tens of thousands of dollars a month because of the right listeners. I have some who care, who don't care about their listeners at all because it's actually the guests they invite on the show that is their strategic move and that's what matters to them at the end of the day. And then I have others who really care how many listeners they have because they're trying to continue and move all the authority they had on TikTok over to podcasting so they can be multi platform. And so, you know, it just depends where your strategy needs to be. And because we are customized about how we do that and how we look at that, and because I have over a thousand shows that we've launched already, I can see the patterns of what works and what doesn't work, which is hard to do if you're trying to just do this all on your own. Those patterns matter because sometimes you think, well, I think this sounds good, but you didn't realize, oh, that relies on you having a giant mail list or that relies on you already being really good. Like, if we try to follow Joe Rogan's model, the reality is, is that he had media experience before he started anything at all. And so then he moves into podcasting and video. And his YouTube is gigantic. But his value of that Spotify paid for in that show of over $120 million for a show had nothing to do with his show audience or his advertising worthiness. It had the fact that he had the formula to YouTube, which is what Spotify wanted. And if you saw, I think it's today's announcement or yesterday's announcement from Spotify about them allowing and doing video within their platform, this is what they wanted to figure out, right?

Oh, that's, that's such a great insight, Tracy. So I just, I know you've hosted, you know, other podcasts, but I think WTFFF is such a great example for the sake of our listeners because to me, it's a great example of niching. So you did that show. What are some of the opportunities that came from doing that podcast? And I mean, it was your first podcast.

So, you know, Yeah, I mean, I said before that I got my Ink column, but what actually happened was I was asked to speak at an event in LA and I was asked to speak on pricing 3D print objects. So like something down and dirty, like technical, like how do you price art? Basically is what they were asking me to talk about. And so I gave this talk on market based pricing and cost based pricing and why cost basis just is a stupid idea in 3D printing because the plastic costs like next to nothing. You're already running your electricity. You know, it doesn't, you know, so like there's nothing to the cost of it. If you based it on that, you'd pay, people would pay pennies for something that you worked hours and hours on to develop and design. So, you know, so that's what I talked about. And a editor of a new part of the Ink magazine online portal was going to be was they wanted to start one to compete against Fast Company. And so they were putting in this new innovation column and she said, that's what we want. We want this down and dirty nitty gritty kind of stu and would you write for us? And I really, I mean, you know, it kind of hit on something I always wanted to do. I always wanted to be a journalist. I always wanted to do that. It just didn't end up my path. I thought I'd go to art school, which is what I did. I went to Rhode Island School, design art school. And then I was going to go to grad school and get a degree in journalism and work in magazines. It didn't happen. That's not what happened to me at all. Right. That wasn't the path I went down, but it tapped into something that I always wanted to do and try. So I said yes. Did not, not realize how hard that publication side of it, how much work you had to put into promoting your own articles. They don't do it for you. And then eventually over the years I wrote for four years, the algorithms changed to that. But that in column itself got me so many speaking opportunities in conjunction with my podcast. And then starting new podcasts every year would get me a new industry I could talk to. So I had one on called Product Launch Hazards, which was the closeout to my business and design because I wanted to share all we had learned to those out there, the inventors of the world, the innovators of the world. So it's a 150 episode kind of section. I rarely, occasionally I'll do a new one if I feel like one is worthy of it. I really should do new one on like, you know, supply chain problems. Like I probably should do one on that today, but anyway. But yeah, so I did that to share that I get an email still on that podcast that still is a really high listener base because someone will find it and listen to all the episodes in a week. So I still tend to have like anywhere between 200 and 500 listeners every single week on it. And people reach out and email me thanking me for it, asking for a resource I mentioned on the show saying they can't figure out where to find it. I was like I have to do a better job of making this self serving on my website, obviously if you're asking me questions. But it's just as fast for me to email the link to them and send it and they, they're very grateful. So those niche things have continued to work for me. And I did one up because I was curious about Blockchain and because I got invited to interview Steve Wozniak and I'm kind of a geek. So you know, interviewing Woz was like a good reason. So I had no, I had no experience in blockch chain and cryptocurrency, but he was speaking at this conference. And so I started a podcast just so I could air the interview because I could have just written the article, which I did, but I Thought, why not have a podcast so I can air the interview? And so that's. That's how that came about. So that one's called the New Trust Economy. So. So, like, yeah, that's it. Staying niche has really worked well for us. It. And. And it doesn't work for everybody. That's not what they want. But it has really worked with well for us.

Well, and I think, see, and that's the mark of a true journalist. And I think I'm the same as it sounds to me, Tracy. Like, you're inherently curious, like you're starting new shows about different niches and correct me if I'm wrong, but when you first start these shows, like, you aren't necessarily the expert in that niche yet you're still hosting a show about it.

Yeah. So like in 3D printing, if you like, ask me anything technical. Like, I didn't even know how to turn on the machine. Tom, my partner and husband, was the one who turned on the machine. Right. So we were a great balance. So he could be the technical expert on how to do things, but I was the design expert and like what the market wanted and other things. So you can be an expert in an area and then still be curious about the growth of the technology or the growth of the pace of the industry. So you can be both at the same time. Sometimes I am an expert on the binge factor. When I talk to other podcasters, a lot of times I'm psychoanalyzing their show, saying what they doing really well, you know, asking questions, probing so that my audience can get success tips that aren't just lectured by me, that are examples of what's working. So that's another structure of a show. So I'm always trying different formats and seeing what's working. Like right now we're doing a brand new show we just launched a month ago, the next little thing we call it. And it's a review show because lots of people are out there wanting to like, it's getting harder and harder to promote certain types of products and certain types of categories. So like, for instance, if you are in the health and wellness field, you can't advertise on Facebook for Nutraceuticals and other things like that. So I wanted to give my clients examples of ways that you might do this in a really authentic and successful way. So now we're not advertising like Nutraceuticals on our show or we're not, you know, we're not reviewing them like one of the examples of it. So this Hydrate bottle. If you've ever seen this, it like lights up. I don't know, it'll probably not light up because I said that right now, but it'll light up because. And tell me that I forgot to drink water. So it's sitting on the side of my desk reminding me to hydrate. And so I bought them from all of my success managers, my marketing team. Like, I bought them for everybody as a gift last and, and because they're all, we're all on our, at our desk, zoom all day long, not taking enough in. So I thought it was a great gift. So that's something I can highlight on my show, talk about why I bought it, how I gave it out as a gift. Now we put links to that and we're testing out the different ways to link to it to say what's working and getting conversion. We're not even in partnership. Like, I don't have an affiliate arrangement with Hydrate. I don't care about it. I just want to see what method of my sharing it is working so I can tell my clients this is the way to go. This is where you're to get the highest conversion. It's the least friction for your listeners to do something from. And that's. So that's how we do things. We test them out and we look at them from those perspectives.

Oh, I love that. No, that is a data based, results driven approach. Now when you talk. So, like, what have you found, Tracy, thus far? Like, if you are trying, like, let's say you host a podcast or maybe you're guesting on another podcast and if you're promoting a book, a product product, like a resource, how is the best way to do that? Because traditionally it's always been, you know, link in the description of this episode. Some people I've even seen do like SMS, like text 55444 to this number. But, like, do you have any insight or any recommendations as to what the best way is?

So it works for me to never sell. It works for me to never do that. And that's not my model of it. It's serve, serve, serve, serve, serve. So I was on Pat Flynn's show, which, you know, smart passive podcasting is like the Godfather classic of, like, podcasts, right? And so, you know, I want to be, you know, he was on my show, he invited me on his show, we did an exchange, and I got more clients from not actually saying one thing about my business except for the name of it. And, you know, Pat of course mentioned it, but beyond that, I didn't. It was because all I did was serve and point out things that they hadn't heard from other people before. And that's kind of my area is that I've had authors on my show or written articles about them and interviewed them where they are like, well, you need to read my book for that. That comes across so obnoxious on a podcast that it will never work. So what I'm telling you, the things I'm sharing with you are things that I share with my client every single week. We do weekly coaching calls with anyone who hosts with us. So you can spend $49 a month with us and you'll be, you'll get four weeks of coaching. Know that's kind of an amazing deal. But I'm sharing you every single one of those tips. And you see what I just did there? I just revealed how I talk about what we do without making it sound like a sales pitch. Right. I just said we have weekly coaching in here, but I'm talking about it in context of a story of how it's used. And that is a way to serve.

Exactly. And somebody might say, you know, Tracy, like you're literally giving away all of your expertise for free here on this interview. The same expertise that you give away on your coaching. But I don't know, there's just something about that where, you know, when, when you give and when you serve, people are, then, I mean, you know, those are the people who will buy from you.

Right? But I live in this place of knowing that I have more value tomorrow. And that's because I'm an innovator. Right? And that's what I, I've lived in that. So Tom and I have 40 patents that are issued and commercialized that puts us in this elite spot of inventors who actually made money off their shows, off their podcasts, off their innovations, of their techn, off of the products that we made. Right. We live off of that. And that's a big difference. When I know what that is and I know that there'll be something tomorrow. Like I just told you, we got something new coming. I've got like five new things coming for 2022 that are gonna really shock the industry. But we did them because they came from deep seated need that's not being observed by the big players in the marketplace. The Spotify's will never see it, Apple will never see it. But us independents who are really struggling to put our shows together have. And if I can solve these problems in a smooth non cookie cutter way, because that's really important to me, because each one of our businesses are different, and each one of us is at a different stage in our entrepreneurship journey, in our business journey, in our personal journey. And so we need to make sure that everything fits those at the different stages. So when I can live in that, then I can give things away. The other part of it that I know from talking to thousands and thousands of inventors who, like, are what, you know, how did you achieve so much success? Success? I'd say to them it's because I talked about my stuff and I found out whether or not the market wanted it. So if I didn't talk about it and then get feedback on it, then I didn't understand whether there was going to be any market proof. So we don't bring something out that we don't already know is going to be successful. It's why I can have a higher hit ratio than anyone else, because I dropped them before. I dropped them before. We dump a lot of money and time into them.

Oh, that's. No, you have been. You've shared so much advice and insight from your array of experience here today, Tracy. It's so exciting and, you know, potatoes is truly shaking up the industry. And it's so exciting to see, you.

Know, we're actually like the sleeper giant. That's how I kind of refer to it. So what people don't realize is where we actually have launched more shows than I Heart.

Because I. Yeah. And. And more of those shows are still podcasting. Where I Heart has a very high pod fade rate because they do like a season, and then they don't continue on their shows. So we actually have more of that now. I can't say our shows more listeners than them in any way, shape or form. That wouldn't be accurate. But we've launched more, so we've learned more in that process. And they're the largest in the world of having launched shows. And then we have 97 staff members around the world with expertise in all different areas and that deep knowledge. They know instantly when something stops working. When Apple hit their glitch this summer, we knew across the board that this was happening to every client instantly. We knew this wasn't an isolated incident for you personally or you were getting a summer slump, which does. Which used to happen before the pandemic. So you weren't just getting that. It was magnified by outages from Apple and, you know, so we can see those patterns and things. And I want to share that because I want to make sure that you don't feel alone in this podcasting world. That's the worst thing ever.

Yeah. No. Oh, 100%. Well, Tracy, it's interesting because, you know, and I think I mentioned something along these lines in my interview with Dan Frank is like, where do you see. And I realize none of us are necessarily fortune tellers here, but where do you see the industry growing or going? Excuse me, you know, because I got into it 2018 and already I feel like it has changed in many ways.

Yeah, it is. I think we're at a fork that is split off here that we really have the Spotify, the Ihearts, the Apples, they're concentrating and even Amazon with its latest. I, I think, actually, I think Amazon is, this is going to be kill in the podcast industry and no one realizes it. And that's because they have extreme deep knowledge on what people listen to in terms of books and content. And if they translate that, I think they can, they can defy the odds that I heart hasn't been able to in development of shows. So I think Amazon has the knowledge to do that. Spotify. Spotify doesn't. They may get it in a couple of years, but they don't have the data that, that Apple that Amazon already has because they've been in music for too long. Right. So they didn't, they don't really see that sort of more long tail, long tail content. Right. And so I think Amazon's gonna kill it from that perspective. So I think we're gonna see this sort of like entertainment advertising level shows that are really only 2% of the podcasts that are being put out there today, we're gonna see that, that them all fight over that. And then we're going to see this independent side. The 98% of us who are doing independent podcasts who are really, I mean, podcasting is not our only thing. We're blogging, we're doing videos, we're live streaming, we're, you know, we're on Instagram, we're doing all of those things together. Podcasting is one component of it. But I think we're going to see more and more of that, get more and more of that side of the industry start to disappear. It happened in the 3D print industry. It's exactly what happened as, as like the money went towards the high end of it, then the low end either consolidated or disappeared. And the ones that were left were financially sound companies to begin with. Right. Like that makes a difference. But they had a better plan for how to keep you using their stuff, how to keep you 3D printing, how to keep you podcasting. In this case, I think that same thing is going to happen and I see that because I've covered innovation for a long time. Is that exactly how, how industries go from that, from that disruption phase into that sort of stable, sustainable phase. And I think we're going to have some really interesting shakeup on the, on the independent side and we hope to be the leaders in that.

Well, and that, that was my, that's my biggest concern is like, will the death of the indie podcaster come eventually? Will these big giants push us out or will there always be those of us who've learned from, to adapt?

So I don't think it's possible for them to push us out. We see that, you know, we thought that would happen when Amazon went into book selling, that all the, you know, pub, you know, we thought that that would happen. There are more self published books today than ones published by big publishing houses. So I don't see that as happening here either because I think there's this drive for that. But I also think is that, you know, got to think about what's going on, you know, in the world today from a sort of, sort of social perspective is that, you know, podcasting is the last bastion of free speech. We're not regulated on indie side as long as we don't care about being on Spotify's platform or on Apple's platform because they can choose not to play our show. But our websites can't get shut down like they can't. They're private, they're ours. And people choose to listen to our podcast. We're not forced on, on the airwaves. So it's not radio either. Right? So people can say what they want on their podcast. Now you don't want to disparage anyone, you can't harass anyone. There's still laws in place. But you do have the ability to have free speech here. And that I think is, is why independent it's going to actually grow right now because we're in the stage of where that free speech is so desired, we make it out. You look, there are podcast companies that have policies about that. We don't. We, we say, look, you might be putting together a risky podcast. We're going to warn you of the risks of what you're doing. If you're doing a political show, a show about sex, a show about, you know, nutraceuticals and you know, things that people think are suspect, health, things you know, we're going to warn you what those are, but it's still on you to at the end of the day to make the decision about how you want to run your show. It's your show. We're just advisors.

Oh, that's so great. That's. That's so encouraging. Um, and I too, am. I'm hopeful for the future, especially after talking with you here today, Tracy. Well, I just love to point listeners to poditize.com you know, spend some time on that site and, you know, consider how it can help you along your own podcasting journey. Listeners, you know, outsource your, your production and some of the other time consuming elements of hosting a podcast so that you can repurpose content and get the most bang for your buck out of these valuable interviews, perhaps, or episodes that you're recording. Traci, I am so, so, so thankful that you would come on the podcast here today. I've learned so much. I'm so glad we could connect. Thank you for coming on the show.

Thank you, Noah. I had a lot of fun.

Thank you for listening to Profit with Podcasting. If you enjoy today's show, please leave a positive rating and review on Apple Podcasts. If that's where you're listening from. Of course, you can always get in touch with me. My email is Noah Profit with podcasting.com I'd love to hear from you. Join us here next Wednesday for another episode.

Sam.