Struggling to Grow Your Podcast? Get Firsthand Podcasting Advice from Host of The Struggle is Real with Justin Peters

Wish you were one of those influencers with raving fans who binge on your every word, consume all your content, buy everything you have to sell, and demand even more. Then stay tuned while Authority magazine columnist and buzzfeed contributor Tracy Hazard shares strategies, tips and tactics from top videocasters, podcasters, authors and social influencers on creating that bingeable factor. Now let's join Tracy as she explores how to rise above all the digital noise with the binge factor.

Hey everyone. Welcome to the Binge Factor. I'm Tracy Hazzard and today I have a guest that was referred by a guest. So I have the the host of the Struggle is Real, Justin Peters. And Justin was referred to me by Mark Hirshberg. I was his 99th guest interview. And so he's a serial guesting guest on podcasts. And he loved Justin Peters show. He loved his process, he loved his style, and he highly recommended it. So I decided, of course I'm going to interview Justin Peters and hear all about it. And Justin is a really interesting guy because he's had an interest in how humans work, particularly the brain. Motivation, disappointment, pride, fear, satisfaction, all the emotions are deprived from different chemicals signaling the brain. And though the science is fascinating to him, the practical is even more fascinating. To explore that, he started a podcast called the Struggle is Real with Justin Peters. He interviews guests about a myriad of topics and invite others to join him in the journey. He is a professional working in recruiting for a package delivery startup and he takes a lot of pride in helping others get to their next opportunity. The most interesting part about the Struggle is Real is it's kind of like this juxtaposition of like, in school we had to do things like memorize stuff, and now we're in the real world and realizing that we're just not as prepared as we thought we were. Why aren't we taking classes like intro to filing your taxes? Maybe because some of us have a mom who does it for them still. So, you know, we're really not always preparing our kids and ourselves for the real world. I sort of like his idea that we should have A Healthy Carbs 101 History of making friends and being social. And back when I actually started my career, I took a course in Dale Carnegie, right? How to win friends and influence people. I actually took a class on that in my very first job. So the business world sometimes has to prepare us for the things that we didn't learn in school. And so this show, the Struggle is Real is for those who, who don't know what the heck we're doing, but want to start figuring it out. And each conversation solves a problem that young professionals will face through their twenties that wasn't covered in the classroom. And together with Justin Peters, they're going to figure the whole adulting thing out. I think it might be, for some of us at any age, is still figuring things out, Justin. So I'm so looking forward for you to listen to his show, listen to some of the interesting things he's doing with it, and. And we'll get back at the end and talk about how you might apply some of those things to your great podcast.

Justin, thanks so much for joining me. Today, we're going to talk about the struggle. The struggle is real in podcasting. It's so, so true. What I love that you said in your first episode as you were talking about why you were starting the show and how long it had taken you really to start it. Like, I hear this all the time. You bought equipment and then you got caught up in what do I record? And is it good enough? And you know what the difference is, is that you're a podcast fan, so that's holding you back. Did you realize that? Yeah, no.

My story goes, I bought mics in April of 2019. Always loved podcasts. I loved the medium. I found it maybe two or three years before that and just like, kind of fell in love with a lot of the mainstays, Tim Ferriss or Jordan Harbinger, Tom Bilyeu's Impact Theory. Loved all of those shows. And I was like, I'd love to make something like this one day. And finally that idea kept bubbling and bubbling and it came to this crescendo of like, all right, I'm gonna do it. So I pulled the trigger. I bought some mics, and that was April 2019. And then I sat around for way too long. The end of the year came about. I'm a big goal setter. So it was December or maybe early January, and I realized, you know what? I never recorded a single podcast episode. And I realized through some introspection, it was just me trying to be too perfect about it. And as every podcaster out there knows, that is the wrong approach, especially getting started. You don't even know the things that you don't know. And now going through this process, I realized that. But, yeah, I finally decided, hey, you know what? I'm gonna actually record some episodes. I don't care about the quality. All I'm gonna value myself based on right now is consistency and putting out A show every other week. So I did that. I called my best friend that day and I said, hey, you want to be the first guest on my podcast? And he said, sure, of course. And we picked a date like a week and a half later to record. And then it all flooded to me and I realized I don't have a show name, I don't have a show concept, I don't have anything. But I'm still going to go ahead and record with him and figure things out as I go.

Well, so your show started out as the Sandbox, and then you pivoted into the Struggle is Real. At what point did you decide it really needed a new brand? And why?

Yeah, I always intended for me to redefine the brand or refresh the brand. It started out as the sandbox, coming from the it sense of like, hey, this is a place to play or something. Like, you get a beta software, something to try out and experiment. And I encourage people to come along with me. This is my experiment. And I realized, hopefully after a year, I promised myself that day that I was gonna record and publish an episode every other week for a year. And at the end of that year, if I wasn't interested in continuing on the podcast, then I'd allow myself to walk away from this project and spend my time elsewhere. Well, once again, the end of 2020 was coming about. I was thinking about the podcast. Does this bring me joy? Is this invaluable use of my time? And the obvious answers were yes. Then I started thinking about, okay, what is the sandbox going to turn into moving forward? It started to speak to my audience or define who my audience was going to be at that time. It was this young 20 somethings, and I was looking for a marketing refresh or brand refresh, and I came upon the phrase, the struggle is real and the rest is history.

I think it's a really good title for almost that generational attraction. And so I think that actually really works well for you. Much better than the Sandbox, which in a way. Well, I get it because I come from tech background too, and that's what we call when we're playing with things. But it's. It's a little condescending, makes them feel younger than they are. So the struggle is real, like heads that up into that real adulting thing. You had some goals at the onset of the very first episode, and you mentioned them in your show. You said that your goal was to get better at interviewing. And you're on this show because that actually you achieved that goal. So what I said in my introduction was that Mark Hirshberg, who is on my show for being. I was his 99th interview, and he recommended you as one of his best interviews and that you had done your homework. What did you do over the course of that first year to get better at the interviewing process?

Man, talk about struggle. This was a struggle for me. My first, I think six episodes were friends or friends of friends, people I felt really comfortable with, which is a good idea.

Like, for all of you listening out there, this is a good idea. Go with someone you know who loves you, who trusts you, because if you screw it up, they're not going to be upset at you. So, good idea.

And then I think it was episode seven. I had a lady on named Alex Dickinson, and she was like my first qualified guest. Like somebody that was a subject matter expert in a certain area that I thought was a really relevant topic to me. And I tried to get too pretty with that interview. I asked some questions that were like, irrelevant and. Or. I don't know. It just didn't really drive it home. And that's when I really wanted to get serious about hosting. So in return, what I've been doing over the last year, it's twofold. I do a lot of guest prep, and I know this might be something that everybody doesn't always agree with how much prep you want to do for your guests, but I'm a big time prepper, probably somewhere north of like 10 to 15 hours on each guest. And what that does for me is twofold. I get to listen to a lot of my guests do interviews on other shows. Therefore, I get to listen to a lot of other podcasters outside of the five to six people that I listen to on a routine basis. And I see. And after four or five episodes or podcasts, you get to know the guest and what qualities and characteristics or stories or advice they're really great at telling. So then it's interesting to see each one of these hosts utilize that talent or that person, how to get that message across. And then you start picking up on things you really like about them and or don't like about them. So through my own research, I've got to analyze how people do things. And I think in turn, I turn around and try that in my show and see if it works for me and my style. And if not, I move on. If I do, I pick up and run with it.

Interesting. You know, that's a lot of prep. Yeah, that is a lot of prep. So are you Thinking that now, though, that maybe you've gotten through this research stage and you can let go of some of that, that you can do a smaller percentage of it, because you know what you're looking for.

Now I'm going to say no, and I'll back it up with you. I told myself, how can I spend this time and make it worth my time, regardless of some of the vanity metrics, the downloads, the listens, et cetera? And one of the primary things for me and the reason that I really enjoy the podcast, it's. It's my own professional development course. I get to bring on a guest every other week, dive into a topic that I wouldn't necessarily dive into, and like I said, spend 10 to 12 hours researching, understanding this person and the subject that they're great at. For me, it's a value before they even come on the show, before I even see the impact of the show in terms of listens and downloads. I know it was well worth my time because it was this topic I was super interested in and. And I wanted to research anyway. And then I just get to bring them onto the show and ask all the questions that I actually wanted to ask about.

So, you know, this is the thing. I think that a Curious Mind does better as a podcast host. I really do. I think if we come from a position of knowing it all, then it makes us. I can almost phone it in, you know, for lack of a better way to describe it. So you really don't do that. That is very, very clear in your show, that you are prepared. You surprise some of your guests sometimes with the questions that you ask, can hear the surprise in their voice. And that's an unusual thing. You know, I can say that nine times out of 10, I will get someone who asks the same questions of all their guests, which is really awful.

Yep.

And I don't know why people keep listening. So you're definitely not doing that. And that's really serving that guest well. They may not realize it, and I think that's why Mark realized it, because he realized it in post. How different an interview you gave him. That's a really an interesting way to go about doing your show, but I love that you're looking at this with levels of goals. So we talked about one of your goals was to get better at interviewing. You did that. You've definitely done that, but you're not stopping. And so you have a new set of goals. So now the show is. The struggle is real. What are your new set of goals?

Yeah, I haven't 100% defined what I want out of the show. Moving forward, a lot of it is still some of the same. Obviously it's easy to look at yourself from a personal standpoint and what I can get from the show. So obviously I want to continue to be a great conversationalist and meet really interesting people. But moving forward, obviously, like most podcasters, I would love to grow, reach and listeners. So deciding how I want to do that and what avenue I want to do that is something that I'm playing around with and trying to understand and then hopefully building on this as well. I speak to the 20 somethings and not all of them in my show is long format, you know, 45 minutes to an hour an episode that doesn't serve the majority of the 20 somethings. So developing some kind of short content in forms of either maybe TikTok or Instagram reels might be something that is near in my goals for the struggle as real brand.

Interesting. So let's get into the five things because I want to touch on that and we could talk about some of your goals of reaching and listeners and see what we can come up with together. So one of the first things I ask everybody is how do you get great guests? So you're out there, you're doing a great job on the other side of vetting them and getting and getting them, but how do you find them to begin with?

Yeah, I think I took the traditional storyline with once again reaching out to friends and family to start with and then from there. Most people go to these matchmaking services like a Matchmaker FM or podbooker or something like that. And that was really great for me to get kind of that next line of guests, some qualified guests that have been on some shows that want to be on a lot of shows. But also the quantity versus the quality is sometimes tough to manage and you just get burnt out speaking to the same leadership development coach or something like that. So if you want some interesting topics outside of those realms of people, then you really gotta start reaching out and getting connected with other people. So what I did was I worked backwards, I wrote down a list of topics and I keep a running list of topics that I want to pursue on the show that I want to discuss on the show. And then anytime that I meet somebody that I think, you know, someone like Mark, who's got a pretty dense network, I reached out to him and I was like, hey, here's like the five topics I'd love to explore sometime in the next couple months. Do you know of a somebody that would be really great guests for this. And then from there it's a simple introduction. And then I usually ask myself a couple questions. Are they a subject matter expert in this area that they say they are? Can they communicate with the 20 somethings? And are they somebody that I'd like to research for a week? That's my process.

Interesting. So everyone who's listening out there, we're going to do some hybrid things while I'm working with Justin here because Justin is got his shows relatively new, so it's got some things that it could adjust. Here's my one mentorship suggestion for you to think about here. I think you should think about having more podcasts, podcast hosts on because they don't reach 20 somethings, they're interested in that. And you could have someone who is a subject matter expert who also has an audience that would love to flow over to you that might be 20 somethings over there. So there might be a nice synergy there as long as they're a right fit for the topic. But there's got to be some great podcasters out there who's got to be like, you should have Jordan Harbinger on your show already. Like, why haven't you? You should ask him. So, you know, this is the thing and the great part about it is when you network with other podcasters, then it helps you get to other guests that you would like to get to. So that's a great way to do it. I don't like to do it very like super often if you're. My show is of course orchestrated around that totally different kind of show. But you know, try to do one every four or so where you're bringing in a podcast host because it can actually build listeners at the same time. And that could be really helpful for you. They're also really good about sharing because they know how to share a show, they know what you need from it. It's an easier exchange and hopefully they'll ask you back on their show because they have such a great experience and that's going to be really useful for you as well to get more listeners in the long run. So that's what I think maybe you want to add to the mix of your thinking right now is thinking about some of those that might hit the topics for you. Make sure you're staying in your topics. So that's a great strategy for you.

Definitely. And it is something I started. I mean, first of all, I just got serious about podcasting as well and I wanted to Build a peer group of like minded individuals to learn about all these things. Now, once you get through the first 12 months and you learn about even like what a podcast host is and all like the little things that episode one through seven ish learning lessons, then you start diving into some really deep topics, like something like how do you warm up a guest in your green room? That's something that I've been thinking about as from a guest experience standpoint. So networking with other podcast hosts, obviously to be on the show, but just as peers is something that's really important to me.

Then you get to peek behind the curtain and see how they do things. Right.

And when I'm going through that research on my guests too, any podcast hosts that I see that I really like what they do, I usually ask my guests to introduce me to them.

Good.

So now I have like a dozen different hosts and I found four or five hosts that speak to the exact same audience as I do with the kind of the exact same messaging. So that's kind of fun too. I have this girl over in England, somebody in New York City. We're all kind of running around the same premise or thesis of our show.

Increasing listeners is the next thing I ask about. And you know, obviously it wasn't your main focus, but have you found anything that you've done along the way that you said, wow, I got a little boost to listeners doing that?

Yeah. I think first, making it easy for your guests to share is important. I'm sure you've covered this plenty of times on the show, but creating content and giving it to them and making it easy for them, if you want to utilize your guests to hopefully react, reach another audience is important. So I won't harp on that too much. But another thing for me is just telling everybody about your show, like getting.

It'S such a little known thing people forget to say. I can't tell you how many times I've sat in the audience with someone speaking and I'd be like, and they have a podcast.

Exactly. It's so funny. And I'm speaking to my demographic all the time because I'm 27, like I'm running into people in my age group all the time. They're asking me some of these questions that I've already covered on the show and I'm like, hey, I know this is a little bit of self promotion, but you should listen to this episode and explore this guest a little bit more because I think that might help you with what you're talking about right now.

Please Tell everybody.

Yeah, yeah, that's for sure. And then I want to experiment. I actually got some inspiration from one of your previous guests who's working as your social media manager consultant.

Whitney. Whitney Lawrence.

Yeah, just like I said, creating some more short form too. You know, hopefully there's some synergy and there's some crossover. People who'd watch that short form content would come over the podcast, vice versa, that people on the podcast would go watch in the short form. But I think that's a great opportunity for me to continue to grow my listenership.

So if I could make this suggestion here, then when you do that short form, make sure you include it because you're only producing every other week and not every week, which is actually a problem. I mean, you don't really realize it, but it's actually causing you a listenership problem in terms of you're not doing as well as the other people who are doing one a week. And that's actually hurting your ranking and hurting the exposure that you're getting to new listeners just in the search media that is the podcast player. Right. So if you bring those short forms in in the off weeks now you're really getting every week now you're going to be getting that and you're mixing it up. And people can skip around. Yes, they can do that, but most of them won't. If you do a good job of your short form, you're teasing to the longer, they're going to want it, so they'll do both. And you'll eventually find that your listen numbers will go up just because of that.

And would you say that recommend to your clients that once a week is probably a minimum Cadence?

It is, it's a minimum. I have clients who do who realize that it's going so well that they go to three over time. Right. And I did it the opposite. I went from five down to one on some of my shows, but I did over 600 episodes, so I earned the right to go down to one. But you know, it is a thing is that if it's working for you, then more often will work even better. Yeah, and that's the thing. Because I want to know also, this is the real thing. At the end of the day, you're selling a business that is service based. You're a coach, you are delivering a product, you're delivering something at the end of the day to them. The thing is, is when I want to trust you, the easiest way for me to trust you is when you show up for me week after week. After week. So when there's consistency in that and a, for some reason our brains and we just don't get this like, oh, it's an off week. We don't get, oh, he does every other week it's an off week. We look at it and goes, oh, there's no episode. He's not posting. So we don't get that idea. So that's why a minimum of a week kicks into that part of the brain of your listener that says Justin's there for you.

I totally agree with you. I think every Monday makes a lot more sense and is a lot easier to manage versus the question is it an off week or. Or is it an episode week?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But it doesn't have to be exactly the same every week. Like people will get to, oh, this is one of the, you know, short form weeks. That's okay, they're fine with that. They can get used to that. So that works.

Let me ask you the question. If I wanted to fill some content and I wanted to do it on a weekly cadence, how do I do that without putting too much more workload on me? Because something that I do appreciate and that I like doing is researching my guest. So I'm deciding do I want another format for other week or how do I want to go about this?

So one of the things that you could do is just do a piece that is actually part of the interview you already do. Some people do that, so it's a break off piece. So in your very first show you did a like almost like a short interview with your best friend and it was just like this little piece and then there was a longer interview that you could watch or listen to. I'm not sure where it was. It was somewhere. But anyway, that sent away, you could do that. So if this topic is of deep interest to you, as you said you've been researching, you're looking for this expansion. You're curious about this setting up and kind of talking through yourself and to the audience. The idea of what you're going to explore with this guest and why you're so interested in having them on the show and what it's a, you know, why this topic itself focus a little bit more on the topic is so interesting. And then you lead into the story of how you found this guest and then give that little clip at the end of the guest. That's the teaser for the episode that's going to be next week. I'm definitely going to hit the subscribe button and I'm going to hang around for the next one. But I also got to hear from you, which I think is really important. When we don't hear enough from our hosts over time, it's just these plugin interviews, we get lost in the messaging. And so us being able to tie that in, if we do a really good job of our intros, we can keep control over it. But if we have our separate topic episodes, we can really control it as well. So that's where I think you could do really well.

Yeah, agreed. That's a great idea.

Yeah. So producing like a pro. You have help. I do, yeah, you have help. But what is it that you do? Talk us through some of the prep of what you do.

Yeah, so obviously, as I mentioned, I do all the prep, the research, the communication with the guest, both pre and post. Then there's executing the actual interview and then there's the post interview piece to it. So this is where I do have some help. Luckily, my partner helps me with all the creative piece to it. She helps me put together the episode artwork, do some of the social media content that's out there, all of those different things, things that I don't necessarily enjoy doing, but I know is important.

Critical, right?

Yes, yes, critical. So yeah, we use a project management app called Trello. I have a checklist built into there. 20 things we pretty much need to do with every single episode. And we just check through that and pass that card back and forth in order to complete the episode.

Nice. Well, you know, I have to say, you have a great show. Everyone out there, you know, I always tell you you need to check out the shows. I want you to ch. Check out one of the more recent ones because that is shifted into Justin's. The struggle is real branding. So you really get to hear all of that going on in there. And you'll see his show notes and the other things that he puts in his episode description. Your episode description is longer than most, which is really great. You do put timestamps in there, which I don't normally recommend, but you know, for the actual episode description portion, it's fine. I just don't recommend it in your blog. So that's working really well for you. You have all the great call to action. Your call to action is really nice. So like all of the professionalness of how this is produced and the way the show sounds is fantastic. So there's definitely. People can hear the quality of work in that and I think that that is in alignment with your quality of preparation. And that I think is really Important. If you're working this hard and putting 10 to 15 hours into prepping for an interview, and then the show comes across ad hoc, that's not good for you. And so yours are matched. And that's why I think it's really working well. And I think you have a great future for the show.

I really appreciate that. That's a lot of kind words.

So after producing like a pro, we are always trying to get engagement, right? Because if we don't get engagement, we don't have that feedback loop. When did you start seeing engagement? And then what do you do to encourage more of it?

Yeah, I mean, I think engagement comes and goes. It seems like it comes in waves. I'll have an episode that I get a lot of engagement based off of or people are giving me feedback. And then other times, I'm quiet for four to six weeks on some of that stuff. So I think it depends. Most of all, I built the show for my little brother. So after every episode, I always ask my brother, tell me what you think about this conversation, and we'll always have a great conversation about it. So, you know, he's like my number one target audience. I speak to him. I create this catalog of educational content just for him. He's the one person I think about whenever I'm interviewing people. And then I have this other small cohort of people that I know binge all of my shows, that watch all of my shows. So I'd love to just ask them every once in a while, hey, did you listen to this? What did you think about it? And you build a relationship and a network there, and then the rest of the feedback just comes back sporadically. Someone will send me an Instagram message, or somebody will send something via Facebook or something like that, or I'll have somebody that's talking to me, and I just met, and they said, hey, I listened to this episode, and it was really awesome. And this is what I liked about it. So it's just a lot of, like, organizing. But something I do want to play with is engagement in the future. I'm building out a listener survey to embed on the homepage of my website so that there's, like, an opportunity for anybody to give me feedback anytime that they would like.

I think that's a great plan. Because, you know, this is the thing is, like, as you become a podcast host, you start to realize how important engagement is. So I find myself, like, leaving product reviews more. I found myself, like, reaching out to authors, telling them, oh, yeah, I read your book. I really appreciated you pointing this out. That's why I ended up with Shane Snow on my show, because I reached out to him because I loved his book so much. But, you know, that's kind of one of those things where it's like that feedback. We don't really realize we don't get enough of it. Because unlike making social posts, it's super easy for people to comment back. Podcasting is just not easy for them to engage back. Now, maybe that's gonna come. I don't know. I hear rumors about all kinds of new apps coming out. Maybe that will happen at some point in the future, but I just don't think that the medium itself is attuned to that. I just, you know, what are we gonna talk back to our. We didn't talk back to our radio. Right. You know, if I didn't call in, I didn't do it. I don't know. We'll see about that. But I hope that we can all encourage engagement back at our website. So I love that idea for you.

Definitely.

Yeah.

And listening to a podcast is such a personal thing. You don't listen to podcasts with very many people. I mean, I might put on an episode if I'm with my girlfriend, and it's one of our favorite shows. We'll listen to it together in the car. But honestly, 95% of the time I'm listening to podcasts, I'm listening to it by myself.

It's a solo thing. Yeah, you're right.

That's so, so true. Yeah. You know, the last thing that I usually ask everybody in our five things are, how do you monetize your show? And you know, this is an interesting thing because. So you started your show when you quit your job.

Yeah.

So, you know, when I looked at the date on it, I thought, oh, no, because you quit your job like two months before the pandemic, so your ability to go spend six months exploring was hampered. Just to be nice about it. Right. You were shackled. Like, it was just not easy for you. I mean, I think that's probably had you getting very creative in your thought process about how you wanted to make a living and how you wanted to show up in the world. So what does that look like for you? And does that have anything to do with monetization of your podcast?

So I quit my job in January of 2020, and the intention was to take a six month sabbatical to explore what I wanted next in my career to tackle some personal projects, the podcast being one of them. And Just to go out and have some fun. I've been working really hard so since 14, working various jobs, pretty much always in school, playing soccer and or working. And I'm just somebody that lived at a high octane life and I really wanted to create some white space for myself in order to think about what I wanted next out of this stage of my life. And obviously that was upended. I made that decision, actually moved to Austin throughout that and everything just blew up with the pandemic. All my plans changed, but I got a lot of unnecessary time, I think to think about what I wanted to do with my career next. Have lots of great conversations there and work on the podcast. I got to spend a lot of time early on and I think that might have helped with the whole pod fading thing because I had so much free time and it didn't seem like it was really stressing my schedule out whenever I first started. But monetizing for me is still something I'm not currently doing. I have been back and forth playing around if it's something that I'm interested in doing or not. I love this as a passion project. Obviously I would love to monetize and for it at minimum to pay for itself. But trying to realize can I do that in a better way, like putting effort into my career, making more there and just taking some of that money and doing what I need to with the podcast in order to make it self sufficient. I don't know, I'm kind of back and forth on it. So I love listening to like your show and hearing people's stories and what they did and whatnot. I just don't know what the best avenue is for me moving forward.

You know, I think that it's too tempting for some to go into this, like, oh, I just want to be an influencer and I just going to build this show up and put ads on the show and. And I think sometimes when we realize how hard the struggle is for the audience that we're working towards, that we need to value that more. And you've got an audience that wants you, needs you, and you have an obligation to make sure that, that however you keep the show running and do that is in integrity with that value that they've placed on you as well. A nice value exchange between the two of you. So if you can provide them some great value, you should do it right. What is that for most people? That's really hard. Like how do I find something that is of that value that I'd be willing to hawk to My friends. Right. And that's what you start to see your audience as, those friends. I design products for 25 years, 30 years, 30 years, 30 years,. I design products. And most people would beg me to recommend things because I wouldn't do it naturally because they're such a hesitation to me to recommend things to my friends and my family and then have it not be right for them. Because I always know in the back of my mind not everything is right for everybody. You know, you get that idea. But nowadays, every so often I'll put something out and I'll say, I love this product. Brought me joy. It was great fun. It was really good. I love this podcast. I think you will too. And it is freeing in doing that, when you find that this is the one thing that I can say, latch onto and say that's valuable enough that I can recommend. I can cite one thing about it that is in alignment with my integrity and in alignment with what my audience wants from me.

Yeah. And I got the advice that if you are interested in sponsorship and running ads, then play around with it and get your audience used to it. To start with, put an ad spot in that is a call to action to your own personal website or newsletter or Instagram or whatever it may be. Or recommend a product that you would love to recommend to anybody. Like I am a die hard fan of the Morning Brew, which is a daily newsletter, something like that I tell everybody about anyway.

You tell them about it anyway. Right. So you don't mind? Well, I actually recommend this to my clients because we have that ad mixing system in the Potitize platform. So it makes it really easy for them to test it out and have some fun with it is that you've got to have some kind of nonprofit that is deserving, some charitable organization that you would tell people about anyway, that you're passionate about. Why not give them the ad space? And so that's where I like to. Rather than having it be hawking products or other things, I'd like to start with that nonprofit. Because you can find where the story lies and how you promote something. Because it's harder to sell to get people to donate. Right. Than it is to get them to buy something for themselves. If you could make that work, you can make your course work, you can make the promos that you do for affiliate products work. So it's harder to do. But if you can do it well, then you got it dialed in and if your audience responds to it, you just did some good in the world.

Yeah, I love that. Thought. I think that's a really great idea.

Yeah. Well, good. Well, let's talk a little bit about binge ability because you mentioned that, you know, you have some binge fans because they tell you that. At what point did you realize people were binging on shows?

Yeah, I don't know if I still realize it or not.

Well, you didn't mention it, so you must have a few that reached out to you besides your brother.

Yeah, I have some close friends that I know listen to all my shows either supporting myself and or because they do find a lot of value from it. And what I hear often from them is the fact that I am deliberate with where I'm taking the show and what I'm talking about on the show and doing my research ahead of time so that I'm not wasting the guest time and in return, my listener time. So I think that's some of the feedback that I get. But yeah, outside of that, I'm not entirely sure that was a reason I was excited to come on the show and hear your feedback.

Justin and I talked about this a little before. It's a little early for his show to have the full binge factor going on because of the shift that happened in it. So it needs a little bit more time in the new shift to the struggle is real format and to everything that's going on there, the messaging for it to take hold. But that doesn't mean that there aren't indicators of good binge ability. So what I see in your show is that what I'm always looking for in the binge factor is that if I'm new to, if I'm out there, I'm a binge listener. I have characteristics of I like to take a show and I like to listen to all of it. Thinking about those out there when you have maybe have that same characteristic when you go out there to look at a Netflix show or something on. On it, where you go and you look and you go, well, I don't want something that was two seasons long and then ended in 2017 because they're going to leave me hanging. They didn't get picked up. I'm going to look for something that's at least five seasons or more. So this is what people look for. So typically, binge listeners look for shows that have 100 episodes. That's the true binge listeners do that. But they will look at new shows that do 25 or more if they've done it consistently and constantly. So that's another indicator they don't Love seasonal shows. Yeah. Because it leaves them hanging. So they like the ones that keep going. So when they see that that's going, it's gone more than a year, they'll give it a try. But what they do is they go to the beginning, they listen to the first episode, they go to the most recent, they listen to the last episode, and then they might pick one in between. So it's like a three episode try before they hit the subscribe button. You know what happens in that process when you do that? That's exactly the process by which I review your show. Same thing. So that I'm approaching it as if I were going to subscribe as a binge listener. So what I heard in that first episode was brilliant. Because in your first episode, you're really laying out a great story about you. I'm already liking you from moment one. I feel you into your generation. I'm not your generation, obviously, but I feel that. And I know that you're the right guy for me. Like, that's a great hit if you can get that at the beginning. So now I go, okay, let me check out how his interviews are. So I go to your most recent one and I get this wonderful download of the research that you've done that you're taking your show seriously. You're not one of those podcasters phoning it in. That's coming through absolutely authentically in every question you ask in the format of your show. So that is helping you as well. And then if I pick something in the middle, I'm starting to see great topics. And so here's where I think your true binge factor moving forward is, is that it's in picking the topics and not the guest first that you're going to attract the most binge listeners. Because if you're really hitting on the things that I want to know about that I need to know about, and finding me experts and finding me people who could be resources and inspiration for me, then at the end of the day, you have my attention, because I know you then have my best interests at heart from the beginning, because those topics are what I care about learning about. And as you mentioned, podcasting is a solo thing. So it's about what I want to learn, not about what you want to teach me. And so when you go through that process, you're helping me. You're helping me to the point at which I can't miss a show. Yeah, that's how you can attract the binge listeners. That will be your binge factor. If you Keep that up.

Yeah, I love that piece of advice. I think that's a really great idea and something I've been trying to implement. If somebody is blowing me away with something they're doing, like, I just reached out to a tiktoker. It's one of those DIY dads that just showing you how to fix everything at home.

That sounds awesome.

I know. I just binged so many of his TikToks. I just went through and watched like all of them and I was just like, holy cow, I should just ask him if he should come on a show on my show.

That's right. Why not? You know, and that's the thing. Let's learn about that. In the process. You're going to learn about how you get to be a good tiktoker because there's a great short content understanding that you want to learn. I love that process because there's layers to what to that topic. For you personally, for your audience, this is going to serve you really well. So one of the questions I want to ask you is so you've got the struggle is real. I was a long time ago, I think it was 2017, 2018, 2017. I think I did John Nestor's show, Hack the Entrepreneur and he has kind of rules about it and he said, I'm going to ask you about your biggest failure and you have to be open and you have to be willing to talk about your biggest failure. So when we're talking about the struggle is real, do you think it's hard or is it going to get harder to get your guests to talk about that deeper struggle or do you think people want to talk about it?

I think people actually want to talk about it. And it's something that I really consider and try to curate in the first 10 to 20 minutes of my episode. That's why it is a little bit longer format. Even though I can condense probably the expertise that I want them to deliver in the first within 25 minutes. But I tell all my guests, if you want to hit a home run on my show, I'm looking for two eyes instruction for how to overcome the issue that we're talking about on the show and then inspiration to act on that instruction that you gave me. And the inspiration almost always comes from the same place and that's a personal story. So I think leading off most of my shows, walking them through their struggle and showing them grow through their, you know, teenage and their 20 somethings is always a really great way for me to bring the guests to light. And now my. My audience is interested in learning about what they learned from that journey and the things that they have and that they've utilized now in order to overcome that, this issue that we're talking about. So it's typically actually something I'm thinking about with just about every one of my guests as that kind of preamble to the beginning of my interview.

I think that's really great. You know, we learn so much more from our mistakes than we learn from our successes. And we learn from other people's mistakes even better. So this is. It's a great strategy for helping that with that. Those two eyes. I love that. The instruction and inspiration.

Yeah. And to answer the question that you really asked too, I think people are open to talking about it, especially whenever I explain to them before we start interviewing that this is for 20 somethings that are going through all those life, what seemed like life crises. It's my first major breakup with this girl I've been dating for a long time. Or it's like, oh, now I'm really insecure about my weight because I'm eating what I used to eat in college. But it's actually catching up to me. Or I don't know what a 401k is. I try to start one at my job and I got super overwhelmed with all the choices, so I just closed it. All these, like, normal, I think, struggles that are going through, and when I'm explaining that and illustrating that to my guests in the green room before we press record, they get it and it clicks. And then they're excited to also showcase where they were throughout their 20s.

Right. And I think all of us have been through many, many struggles, some of us more unusual ones. So I think you've got. You've hit on a few that I was like, wow, that's an interesting struggle. So this is going to be a really interesting for your audience and see how they take this on. I think they're right there with you. And that's one of the lessons that I want your show to express to people. When you make a shift in your show like that, but you make it for all the right reasons, you're not gonna lose any audience, I guarantee you. You didn't lose anyone.

Right.

You didn't see a drop off in listenership because you changed the COVID art and the title of your show?

No, not at all. And I was actually a little worried about that. I was interested if people were gonna see this new podcast in their feed now and not understand what it Was and then no longer listen to it. I think obviously that takes a little marketing and branding to make sure that everybody knows and understands where you're going with it and why you're going this direction. And honestly, I think it just solidified the audience I'm speaking to and the thesis of the show. Once again, the Sandbox was my own personal journey. But the struggle is real, as you mentioned. Is that this quote or the saying that all the 20 somethings, all the millennials, like, really get, they're like, yeah, the struggle is real.

Yeah. You know, this is the thing we were actually debating this last night. We were debating. And I didn't really realize that was the name of your show until I went to go, like, walked inside after dinner and started my research. Because I usually do it, I like it to be fresh in my mind. So I usually do it the night before and the morning of. And so I didn't realize that was the name of your show. But we had just watched the 100. I don't know if you've seen that.

Love the 100.

The 100. Yeah. And we get to the end and my husband was like, why would they go and do all this is such a struggle. Like, why? Why all this struggle? And I was like, it's human nature. We actually don't really appreciate the success if we don't have the struggle to compare it to. And that's what I think is really great. To have those contrasting is like inspiration for the success has to come from seeing how hard it was to get there.

For sure.

It's kind of an unfortunate human nature thing though. Wouldn't it be nice if there was no struggle?

Yes and no, I guess. I mean, some of the best. It sucks in the moment and it hurts in the moment and it's just the most like it's end of the world. And whenever you overcome one of these or whenever you're in the moment of one of these big struggles, but almost everybody tells me like six months later, a year later, three years later, I'm so glad that happened. And I just want to illustrate for everybody, you know, the big thesis of the show is like, you're going to make it through your 20s, like you're going to do it. Come on. I'm here to help you along the way, but I can't cover all the topics that you're going to run into or the struggles you're going to face. But I promise you, they're all going to end the same way. You're going to make it through.

Yeah, you're going to make it through. And maybe with some deep lessons learned, Will, you'll be my next guest, right? Who knows?

Exactly.

It wouldn't be right of me to not ask, what struggles are you dealing with right now? What is the biggest struggle for you, and what are you doing to get out of it?

This is a very timely question. I think I'm really struggling with trying to figure out this next chapter in my life, particularly around my career, and then all the questions that stem from that. Should my career be the focal point or the center point of what brings me joy and fulfillment? If it is, how do I create joy out of my career? That's something I'm really struggling with. I realize a lot of my peers also struggle with that same thing. So I'm going through that. Which is why, if you're listening or looking through a lot of my topics that I recently covered, it's a lot of career stuff, a lot of career pathing.

Hence Mark Hershberg, the career toolkit. Right?

Yeah, exactly. Because it's just something that I'm so fascinated trying to figure out right now and trying to figure out the right questions to ask myself is what I'm currently going through, but also just coming to peace with the fact that I'm never not going to know the right answer in the moment. You just got to make a decision. You got to move forward. You got to be excited about that decision. And, you know, there's a hundred different lives that we could all live. Just enjoy the one that you are living.

Well, it seems like you're enjoying podcasting, so please keep that up. There's a whole host of 20somethings out there waiting for your next topic.

Thank you. I appreciate it, Tracy.

Thank you, Justin. So glad you came on the show and so glad you're sharing the struggle is real with all of us.

Awesome. Well, it was a pleasure being on your show. Thanks for inviting me.

So for all of you who are struggling with your podcast, just, you know, that struggle feels really real. Right. Just like it does for Dustin. So even those who are doing some great things with her show have some great structures going on. Really have that interview and curiosity dialed in for you, just like Justin Peters does on his show. You know, there's still some things to work on.

Right.

There's always the way. How can I get better guests? How can I increase my listeners? Right. That's what we're all here about on the Binge Factor. We're exploring that through deep curiosity and finding out what's working and what's not working. I love that Justin was so honest with us about how things are working for him and what she's struggling with. And taking a listen to different people's shows are a great way for you to get experience in what that means in practicality. So they can say, I'm doing a really good job of getting guests or I'm doing a really good job of asking interview questions and getting in depth. So my content is being well received by my audience. But until you go and listen to what they have put out there, listen to how they ask those questions, listen to how they're structuring their show, listen to or take a view at their social media posts and the different things that they're doing, you really can't understand and start to apply those things. You can hear this sort of cursory idea of, okay, ask your guest to find you another guest that is the right fit for you. Awesome. Who wouldn't want to keep referring and paying it forward? That's a great way to do it. But until you actually go and see how are you going to do it, are you going to do it at the end of your episode, are you going to do it in a follow up call, are you going to send an email afterwards? How are you going to enact that tip that was given to you and turn it into something that is actually going to grow your show? We got to take that struggle and we have to learn to apply it. We have to go in there and try these things, right? So at the beginning I introduced him and one of the things that Justin says in his great introduction, which I loved the short description, it's still short, but I really love it. It's so pointed. He said we should be taking classes like how to file your taxes, right? So until you dive in and actually file your taxes yourself, until you take that step to figure these things out yourself, you're not going to understand how actually easy it is to take that struggle and turn it into a path to success. And then you're going to open your mind up to all the feedback, all the different people who can help you along the journey, just like Justin Peters. So take a good listen to the struggle is real Justin Peters and you're going to really enjoy some of the things that we pointed out here in the episode today, like how really he dives into his guests, how curious he is, how he's really thinking about how that brain works and he's applying that to the way that he's asking questions. So to get that spark back to you, to believe that you can do this. So not only are we in it with you, but we're also on that path to success. That's what he's building within his show. You can do that too. So I look forward to bringing you new and different podcasters who are in different niches in different areas, struggling with different things each week here on the Binge Factor. If that's you or if it's someone you know, don't forget to go to the bingefactor.com and apply to the show. I look forward to talking with you and hearing all about your successful podcast on a new episode of the Binge Factor coming up.

You've been listening to the Binge Factor Podcast. For more information on podcasting and videocasting success tips and tactics, please go to thebingefactor.com and be sure to listen to our other show for podcasters called Feed you'd brand. If you'd like to be interviewed on this show as well as is featured in Tracy's column, please go to thebingefactor.com guest and apply.