The Perfect Timing To Sell On Your Podcast Episode Without Sounding Too Salesy

Want your podcast and videocast to be seen, heard, found and rewarded in this noisy digital world, you are not alone. Join the nonprofit community at Podcasters United and podcast industry experts Tom Hazard and Tracy Hazard as they debunk all that outdated and bad advice you've been getting from the podcast gurus and find out what actually works. Today, get ready to finish Feed your brand with smart cut tactics proven to cast your original voice to the world.

Hey everyone, welcome to Feed you'd brand. I'm Tom Hazard, long here with my co host Tracy, and today we're going to be talking about what's the perfect timing to sell on your podcast episode without selling sounding salesy, or without sounding too salesy as the case may be. Is there a perfect time? What is that perfect time? And I think there's an awful lot of podcasters, at least if you're podcasting somehow in alignment with what you do professionally or in business that would be interested in this. If you got a passion project, some other purpose, and maybe you don't want to sell anything on your podcast, then maybe this isn't an episode you're going to be too interested in, although you may be still curious. So let's talk about that.

Tracy, is there a perfect time? Well, I can tell you there's a less perfect time.

I think there are better times.

In terms of black and white thinking. Is this an absolute right or wrong? Maybe not.

So there's a lot of bad advice out there, and that's what I'd like to address first and foremost. There's a lot of people out there who are out there giving advice. I'm putting in air quotes for those of you who are just listening gurus, podcast gurus who think that they understand podcasting, but really they're applying funnel tactics or email tactics or some other kind of digital marketing to podcasting and they think they have all the answers. And the reality is, is that if you don't understand podcast listeners, and specifically your listeners and subscribers, those tactics can actually hurt you over the long run. And that's what we're really here is remember we said this time and time again, podcasting is not a sprint, it's a marathon. It is a long tail marketing tool. And unless you treat it with respect for that and you treat your subscribers and your listeners with that same respect that they're going to be around tomorrow and the next day and they're going to binge on you and listen to all the things that you have to say. And in the future, if you're not respecting that. And you're going for the quick win right at this moment, the quick hit, the quick sales, the quick process. You may lose out more in the long run. And that's really what I want to point out today, is that this advice that we're giving here is counter to those that are using it for the wrong reasons or with the misunderstanding of what it really is like to be a long term podcaster.

I think that's a really good point, Tracy. I'm glad you brought it up. I guess one other thing I'd like to say, framing up this discussion just for those of you that don't know, because this podcast, there's a lot of newer podcasters that listen to it, is that in case you're not aware, more than 65, 66% are the latest numbers that I've seen of podcast listeners. Your audience, your listeners don't mind listening to ads or promotions in the podcast. As long as they're enjoying your content. They've opted into it. They're wanting to listen to each next episode. They wouldn't have subscribed. You're providing them value in that show of some kind. They don't mind listening to ads. If that's what you want to do or need to do to keep providing them that value, that's okay.

Now there's better ways to do it though, than others. Then we should talk about that a little bit. But the idea is Tom's absolutely right, is that they want your content. And if it requires them to listen to a few ads in the process, then they're comfortable with that because it's free content. And they understand that that's the consequence of free content.

So, Tracy, before we get to where some of the better or best places or ways to do that in your episode, what's one of the worst places to do it?

Well, I don't want to talk about places. I want to talk about timing instead, because that's really what we're here to talk about. And so let's talk about it, about how soon once you start your show, you should be placing ads. I think that's the biggest, worst advice out there, comes from that place. There are those gurus out there who believe that you should be placing ads from the moment you start your show. And that means episode one, that you should have some kind of promotion ad call to action, and it should be right up front in your show. That's the other part of the advice which we'll talk about as our second focus topic to answer Kind of where you were going.

That's really where I was going. Yeah, but that's fine. We can save that.

Yeah, exactly. So the issue that we see again and again is that people test out a show. So if you're putting in your introductory episode, where I'm just learning about your show already chock full of ads and promotions and you selling stuff hard up front and throughout, I'm less likely to give your show a chance beyond that episode. Really, really less likely to do that. So we do not recommend episode one or zero. Some people call their episode zero, your trailer, anything like that. Having any kind of promotion beyond, hey, I'm an expert in this and here's my website or what's in your normal outro, that is all that should be in that episode. It should be blocked from ads completely. Now, if you're streaming or if you're on any other host besides Poditize that puts ads in your show, you won't have an option to do that. We have an option to block that out. And this is why we built it. It's one of the main reasons we built it. That and other sensitive topics that you want to be able to talk about, but you don't want ads on either because it's sensitive and it's personal and it maybe doesn't belong to have something. It seems crass to have an ad in there. Right. So that first episode is a critical testing point for someone who doesn't know you yet, doesn't know if they want to give your show a chance and you want to attract that listener and you want to get them in. So if you are starting your first episode with all of those advertisements, promotions, pushy sales, you are turning them off before they've ever even given you a chance. And we don't want to make that mistake.

And Tracy, some people would advocate for not having any ads in your first 10, 12 episodes, maybe even 20 episodes, that you really want to provide value and establish a certain kind of credibility with your listeners, especially in the beginning of a podcast, that you may not want to do this until really further down the road.

Yeah, I mean, that's my position and that's where I'm a bigger fan of that, because I do see that it has a long term, faster growth, residual value to your show. So those that don't start out with ads, but go through anywhere from 10 to 25 episodes, it really more depends on the amount of months and times or weeks. So 25 episodes, if you're doing more per week, you earn that faster, right. If not, it's that six months. And so that could be a little bit extended. I'd say if you give them what is the equivalent of three months, whatever that might be, or if you are doing a daily show, I believe you earn that faster and they see that. So if you do five days a week or more, then you earn that pretty much in 30 days. And so when you hit 25 episodes, that could be your mark. If you're doing more frequent or give yourself 90 days, that's 12 weeks. That if you did one a week or you started with three and then did one a week, you're anywhere between 12 and 15 episodes somewhere in there. Those are really good time periods to say. I've devoted myself to the audience, to the concentrating on my content creation, less on my advertisements, and now I've earned the right to start promoting. And that's good. That's also another reason why we built potatoes the way we did so that you could insert ads later. So after you've earned that right and you're continuing to go and a good binge listener subscriber looks at your show and says, wow, they're doing weekly, they're doing really well. I see this. I've listened to that first episode and it's awesome and it's giving and it's got everything that I could want on it. They're more willing to subscribe and then they're not going to be put off by the fact that they subscribed. And you're already 25, 50 episodes in that those first ones have ads on them. They're not going to think anything of that.

They really won't. And to sort of add a little point to that, as long as what you're doing, putting in your episodes for promotions or advertisements is in alignment with what you talk about or in alignment with your typical listeners, areas of interest or needs. That's where it's even better. They really don't mind. And in fact, if there's something that interests them, they're more likely to take the action that you suggest to them. So there are reasons why it's really, when you think about it, shouldn't be such a shocker. The why podcast listeners don't mind listening to ads, where people who watch television or listen to radio really don't like having to put up with ads at a much larger percentage. And very few people don't mind ads in that context. So this all sort of makes sense. But I like Tracy, what you're sharing is that basically it sounds like you're saying you really want to serve first and sort of earn that right to be able to start making suggestions. And that's a nice way to put it. Suggestions to your audience. Right?

Products, service, suggestions. Yeah, exactly. So that's it. Earn the right and what that defined as. We just clearly see that it takes time with podcasting. As we pointed out just earlier, in this episode, we're talking marathons. So you have to go a few miles before you've earned the right to say, I have a shot at making this and being there along with you and supporting you in this. And so I've earned the right to now share some options for you, share some resources, share my calls to action with you. Right. You've earned the right. Beyond that, there's no saying you shouldn't have an outro with a call to action. No one expects that you don't have that in there. People want to know how to find you, want to know what you have in that process. So if you've got a book, put it in the outro. Those are things that you've already earned the right to sell, just in general by being a podcast host. Right. Those are part of your expertise and establishment of who and how I find you. That's okay. But we're talking about a lot of things at the beginning, which is where we see it go wrong. So we're talking about the beginning of your show when you're starting early on and you're earning the right to it, but also the beginning of your episode. So now let's get back to that timing question about the timing in it. And this is where we see it go very badly for people, because if you are using an auto insertion system, one of those streaming services, there are many of them out there. Megaphone, Captivate, there's also even some of.

The listening platforms anchor. Spotify.

Spotify, right. Well, they're compounded by the fact that Spotify and others put ads on the front of them in addition. So if you're hosting through Megaphone, they're inserting ads for you. They're inserting them all at the beginning. So before your episode even starts, they're inserting ads there. And then Spotify will stream ads in addition to that at the front of it for those that aren't paid subscribers at a certain level on their platform using their listening app. So now you might find and not realize it because you didn't listen to your own episode posted through an app, that there's two minutes worth of ads before your intro ever happens. And that is a gigantic mistake. Right now.

I can't even tell you how many prospective customers, and then eventually even customers of ours that we've had that were on megaphone and they were sold the idea that they would make money on their podcast by being there because the episodes can be monetized with ads. And they're leaving that platform and looking for support because they're so frustrated. I had a prospect show me an episode. They had three and a half minutes worth of ads at the very beginning, before anybody even heard the first little bit of their show, even their prerecorded intro.

And 90% of those ads are irrelevant to the content of your show. And you don't get a say in whether or not they are put there or not. There's very few platforms allowed of protection, right? So you have ads for things that don't have any meaning to your listeners. So they're listening to three and a half minutes or trying to figure out how to skip three and a half minutes worth of ads, which isn't always feasible in the way that some of us listen. So some of us might listen while we're working out or listen while we're cooking. I do that or listen while I'm doing my makeup and doing my hair in the morning. So, like, those are different things that I don't have my hands free to go figure out how to skip this. So it then becomes not worth it to listen to your show if I'm going to have to put up with that every time. And so if I haven't gotten into it enough to know that there's something of value here, to have all those ads up front are very problematic to and creating a dissatisfaction level before I've ever even given your episode a full chance. And that's what we're trying to avoid here. We're trying to avoid people skipping your show and not going forward because these barriers are in the way, making them feel like you sold out, that you don't understand them because this is irrelevant, that you're just in it for the money is what this sounds like. And the reality is is there's not enough money. That's like the point that I want to make. At the end of the day, if you made a hundred bucks, you'd be doing amazing. If you made a hundred bucks off a megaphone, I'd be shocked.

Especially as a new show without a large audience, because those types of ads are paying you out based on the volume of listens. And early on, unless you have a huge social following and very quickly you have a lot of listeners. When you first start your show, you probably don't have a whole lot. You're not going to make much of anything. So you've sort of sold out your show before you started and you didn't really get any value out of it. And you probably turned off a lot of people from subscribing.

So what we want is you to think about that long term residual value. Yes, you are investing in your show and 100 bucks back if you make that would be nice. But if it costs you hundreds of listeners over that month, then you're not actually serving yourself any good. Because for us, for instance, on our show, if a podcaster listens and then comes to buy, they might be upwards of anywhere from 1,000 to $15,000 of value. So for us to turn away every single listener that gets turned off because of advertisements that might be appearing on our show, do a huge detriment at the long term return on investment value of our show. So we don't want to do that unless we're absolutely certain this is our path now. Iheartradio this is their path. This is what they do. They create shows solely as vehicles for advertisements. They want to make every penny advertising. That's what they're doing. And so they don't care. They want to maximize that in every which way. But if you care, if at the end of the day you're selling your core services, your business, your expertise, you want to get on other stages and you want to do other things, authority, value, expertise, value, business value for yourself in this, then advertising and especially all up front and at the beginning are not the way to go.

Agree 100%, Tracy.

And so this is the other part that I want to say, Tom, is like upfront also means right after your intro and before you get into any content. So even if you're doing your own calls to action, your own ads, going immediately from your intro and to your own promo, your own voice promo, where you're saying it yourself, that is too soon too. You want to entice them at least about what the episode's about before you go into a promo.

Sure, I agree with you. Yeah. So a lot of times people that do their show in like one take and they don't do it in different segments where they're just, maybe they're recording it live as they're doing it, there may be more difficult to insert an ad up front. But if you're going to do something where you Record a little introduction, welcoming your audience and sharing with them what this episode's going to be about. Maybe tease a little bit to something they're going to be interested in and want to hang on for you. Get them sort of warmed up, like, oh, okay, great. Yeah, I'm looking forward to this. Then you could have one potential break for a short promotion, and they're probably not going to switch off because of it. Or I've also seen Tracy, some people that do what we call that hook line at the beginning, they have a little audio clip of a highlight from later in the episode right up front. This very first thing you hear. Then maybe your prerecorded intro. If you do something like that, you're building anticipation. You're warming them up for what they're going to get, and they're more likely to hang on.

Although hook lines are in decline, that's like another episode that we probably need to do. Hook lines in general. There's been a report that came out that hook lines in general are declining in terms of stylistic use on podcasts. And I think part of the reason is because many, many people are doing video and audio. And when you do video and audio, that hook line can sometimes look just disjointed, and it's not always good.

I can see how it wouldn't look as professional, not branded, some of those things. Whereas in audio it's fine.

Right.

Entirely different situation. So, I mean, I guess you could do it in audio, but you'd have to be doing sophisticated enough production where your video doesn't necessarily match the audio show. And that's fine. You could.

Right. Which is perfectly fine. We do that all the time here, too. But that's why I think it might be in decline, because stylistically it's, like, difficult to handle in video in a way that's easier in audio. And I think that people are recording the way that they're recording and trying to make everything as simplified as possible and in sort of format a show. But having all that up front is too much. And that's what we're trying to point out to you is give this moment a chance. Now, this is why I think the bad advice has come out of the gurus out there, Tom, and that is because it's coming from the video numbers. The video numbers say for every minute of video, your audience declines by. I think it's 70%. It's like, it's really close to 7.

All the ads up front, don't they.

They want to shove everything up front because that's the case. But that is not the case in audio. In podcasting it is not the case. We have an average on almost every shows that we do here, 70% listen through rate. So they're getting through 70% of your show on average before they quit it. That's an average. That's amazing. That means most shows are listened to 100% and those numbers don't exist in any other media type. They don't read through and blog posts in that same pace. They definitely don't watch videos in the same pace. But that's why this advice translating into podcasting is erroneous. It's just plain wrong and not right for podcast listeners. And that's what we're trying to point out to you here in our discussion.

So a better place to put some ads or promos within your episode is somewhere from a third of the way through to 2/3 of the way through the episode.

Is what I, I sometimes think of it. 20% is okay if you've gone in 20%, because for most part, like if I give my introduction of what's going to come with the guest and everything, that might be about 20% of my show. So I think that's an okay place, especially if you have a natural break in the conversation and it's not really interrupting everything. That's a perfect time to do that. So I do have many, many shows that do it at a 20% mark. But I agree with you. If you've just got a long tail show and you're just trying to figure out where and you're going to interrupt the content in general, then go about a third.

And my favorite place to interrupt content where there is an interview or a discussion between two people is usually if a question is asked after that question but before the answer is given.

That's right.

And if you're clever about it and you record your promotion, which remember, gets inserted in there, your promotion, your ad can say something like, and we're going to hear the answer to that question right after this important message. So you have a transition and let them know. And then at the end of it, you can also have a transition saying, all right, now let's get back to the answer to that question, or something like that. That's just one way to do it. But it makes sense when you think.

About it, because people like the anticipation, the open looping. They're not going to skip it. They're going to come back. They don't want to miss the start of that answer. So they won't take the time to skip through it as long as your ad is not long. And so if you've got a 30 to 45 second ad, you are going to be fine in there and they're not going to worry about it. They're just going to listen all the way through because they don't want to miss one second because it's hard to skip. It's really hard to skip ahead. You can only hit the like 15 second button or the 30 second button and skip ahead.

So that's another tactic is the skip buttons tend to be 30 seconds, 1.

Minute or 15 seconds on some apps.

Yeah. So if you record a promotion that's 20 seconds, 25 seconds, 35 seconds, something like that, it actually can sort of train people not to skip because it's not perfectly timed for that.

There's a hack tip for you.

There's a hack.

That's a great tip.

Tech, hardware sort of hack. But it really.

But psychologically it works. And this is the exact point is that they'll come to see it's not worth skipping because they'll miss something and they don't want to miss it. And that's important to them.

Yeah. And the most effective ads or promotions in your podcast are ones that are spoken by the hosts of the show because they already know you, they like you, they're gonna listen to what you have to say.

So you've got continuity already. So that's where those streaming ads, where they put them on the front, it's somebody else's voice.

Some of the ones I remember recently were like, for HP Digital Inc. I still don't even know what that is because I never looked it up. I was just so annoyed by it. And then like a Google AdWords kind of an ad.

I mean, and a lot of times there's Kindle or some kind of Amazon ad. Right?

Big, big, big corporations who are spending lots of money on ads are the only kinds of ads that are going to run on shows that they'll be like, oh, I'll be on any show. They're the only ones that are really going to pay to be put on podcasts that are unproven and brand new. But you're only going to make a little money because in order to get the kind of exposure they want, they're going out on tens of thousands of podcasts at a time, not just 1 or 2 or 10 or 12. Right. So, I mean, so that's.

You lost specialness too in that process. Right. So some people think that having Advertisers mean that they've made it as a podcaster, but podcast listeners are savvy, they're really smart about it. And they know when they hear that same ad on 12 of different shows, they know that's a stock ad that's running across Spotify or running across Megaphone or one of those systems, they know it, they recognize it, and they don't give you any credit for that. But if you're really making a host announced ad about something, they say you've got a relationship with that person, you attracted them, you attracted that brand, that's different. And they give you a lot more credit for that. And that's where they're more valuable because we expect those in the middle of the show. Because someone wouldn't spend the money to do a host read ad that wasn't mid roll. It's just not a value. Right? You don't do pre rolls and post roles with the host read ads. You just wouldn't do it as an advertiser. It's not worth your money.

Right? And the reality is if you have something to sell as a podcast host, something you're in business for, something in alignment with what you do, or it's a different product or service of another company that you personally have experience with and you actually are endorsing it, those things always work much, much better because you have established rapport with the audience, you have credibility with the audience, they care what you think. And if you're saying this thing is good, then they're going to believe you. So I mean, it's a different kind of experience for the listener, a different kind of relationship that you have not only with the listener, but with the advertiser that then transfers through to the listener. It's an entirely different thing. The only way you're going to make any meaningful money with a third party sponsor that's a general sort of run of show ad is if you've got huge, huge, huge listenership, like in the hundreds of thousands, then you're going to.

Yeah, you got to be Joe Rogan to make money at that. Really. I mean, you do have to be up there. And what we find is that less than 2% of shows make money at that rate. Right? At a rate that's worth it at that level. And then the next level down is less than 4%. So like it's the next level down, which is sort of like general run of network run of show ads and they're still named brands. So you're not getting to host Red ads yet that there's about 4% in there, but you're still only making a few hundred dollars a month. And that's about 4% of shows qualify under that. And then beyond that look, you're talking about 96% of shows don't make money from those kinds of ads at all. So where do they make their money? They make their money from their own stuff, their own products, their own services, their own affiliates, their own relationships that they built. And how does that work best? That's what we're here talking about today. It works best if you give your show a chance to get a hold of it, to get started, to take off, to hit about 25 episodes or at least 90 days in. And it also makes sense if you wait and don't do it at the very beginning of the show. Definitely not your episode one and not all the way up until you've at least given some kind of teaser or announcement of the show. Start from that point on and look at where its proper placement belongs.

Now Tracy, we have some data, and I know you, I think are a little more familiar with it than me, of those shows where people are doing host rate ads for their own stuff, for things that they're in business doing in support of their business, lead generation for their customers, for the business, whatever, but in a direct alignment with what they do for a living. What's the percentage of shows that have the opportunity to do that? By the numbers we have, yeah.

So I mean the reality is, is that any show has the opportunity to do that who's gotten beyond that space point. But because we have such a high pod fade rate of shows that don't even make it past 10 episodes in the marketplace in general, that's where it.

Starts saying in the whole podcast system, you're not talking about potatoes customers, you're.

Just no poditized customers. Don't fall into this because we have less than a 7% pod fade rate here. So like we don't have as many people quit their shows. The rest of the industry is up over 70% of pod fate. So what we're talking about is we're talking about a couple of million shows out there that either have ads in it, running ads on the front of it, then none of them are making any money off of it really because they're running through the streaming systems for the most part on these old episodes, or they sold the ad and the ads baked in and they now no longer make current money off of it, even though the ads there. Right. So there's about two million of the ecosystem of two and a half million podcasts that do nothing for anyone but Spotify, but Megaphone, but the big companies that are taking care of themselves in that process. So that's not good for anyone. But of the other half million, the ones that really have the right number of episodes, they've got the right types of shows, they're really in that spot. We're really talking about 45% or so of them that really could do with their own host read ads, do well with their own relevant placements. So, meaning an ad that's timely. So, like if I'm at the start of a year and I've got a health and fitness podcast, and I really want to talk to people about their New Year's resolution of getting healthy and fit, and I put that ad in there, and I don't leave it in there beyond January. I take it out and replace it with something different. Now I'm more likely to have conversion on my ads. And our conversion rates on those types, on those 45% of shows that fall into that realm, we tend to see somewhere between 10 and 30% conversion rates on the calls to action, which is extremely high. Now, remember, you don't have thousands and thousands or tens of thousands of subscribers, right? But out of the hundreds that you do, you have very active ones or the thousands that you do, you have very active ones on those shows. So that can mean for some people, that's 10,000 or more in sales a month, where it's adding bonus to them. Some of our real estate investment podcasts can do $40,000 of investment at a time, and that's just one call per month that happens that way. So what makes it a return on investment of those 45% of shows is different for every single show it is.

But they get real value out of it. And the reality is most of them who are doing that are more than covering, certainly their expense and their time in creating the podcast and putting it out there. But I think they're getting a lot more value out of it than just that. And then you're right, Tracy. Some of our people, we work with, some of our podcast customers who monetize their shows, some of them have really huge amounts of revenue that they're getting. I mean, one customer who I won't name just because I want to keep it anonymous, but they literally make, they've analyzed it, about $25 per listener every month. That is a extreme high end example. But they're selling their own stuff. Doing that. They're not making money with third party sponsors. That's what I'm trying to share with people.

Right. And you don't know when you're starting your show where you want to be. And that's also another reason why I urge that patience at the beginning and getting yourself to that 25 episode mark or to that three month mark, because you're going to understand more about your listeners, about when they start reaching out to you, which is about that timing, and you're going to start to understand more about what they find most valuable. So if you decided to start advertising based on bad advice from some guru out there, then you might be making a serious mistake. And never make it past your 90 day mark because of that. And that's what we want. We want you to get to that point where the audience is reaching out to you and telling you exactly what they want. When we started our 3D print podcast and we now have over 650 episodes in that catalog of podcasts and we have a top level sponsor, Hewlett Packard, who still advertises on all of our shows. So that's there. But we didn't get there from doing that from the beginning. From the beginning, we learned exactly what they wanted and what they were looking for and how we could create better content for them and then how we could provide them valuable promotions and affiliates and other things that we could seek out for them. And then we hit an eventual mass sponsor at that, if you want to call it that, high level brand sponsor.

Yeah, I think we did it pretty quickly in that show for the type of sponsor we got. I think it took us about six months. We built a pretty significant audience that got their attention and they found value in it. And we're not hp, but there was another company who advertised in our show and we continued to grow that from there. But it definitely can happen. It just depends. It's a little unique for every show.

Yeah. And I'd like to just make one quick shout out to one of our Binge factor episodes which will have aired by the time this airs. But for those of you who are watching us live today, it will air next Wednesday. So it's not live yet. So for those of you who are watching us live and you don't get to watch us live unless you're a potatoes client. So sorry about that. For those of you listeners out there who are not potatoes hosting clients yet, but if you were, you'd be watching this live and you'd get to hear that. But that episode is specifically about someone who's deep diving into a niche. Samantha Lee Wright, and her show is all about essential oils. And we're talking about a deep dive niche. And she was able to create sponsorship opportunities very quickly because she became a valuable resource to the marketplace. And so that's where we see if you're going to go into that advertising realm and you do want to do what we did. And the 3D print podcast, the only shows that I've seen do that successfully in, as Tom put it, three to six months in that early sort of stages of it happen because they are so deep in a niche and they are serving intently into that niche. Too general a show will never work in that model.

Right. And another way to think about that is it's very clear there's a very clear alignment between the interest of the listeners of the show and whatever that sponsor would be wanting to raise awareness for. If that's clear, if your audience, like you said, general variety show interests of your listeners are going to be all over the map. But when it's a deep dive niche, my audience is interested in this, well, then they're likely to be very interested in that other thing this advertiser has. Boom. Perfect match. Easy to monetize sooner.

Yeah. The type of shows we've seen on that are like, we had an outdoor show in Maine that was like, specific to outdoor trails. That was amazing. We've seen a show on deer hunting that was just deep dive niche. This essential oils, 3D printing, like, these are the kind of niche areas where you could find a specific narrow trade show.

Right.

Or an interest group or those kinds of things. They work best in that kind of earlier advertising model. But you still have to earn the right and become the industry expert, the go to podcast for that niche. And when you hit that spot, though, that's when they come to you with ads.

Wonderful. Well, Tracy, I think that's great. I think we may have overwhelmed our listeners with a little too much information in that one. But hopefully each listener who it's relevant for you will find some value in some of the advice that was provided and then use that as you grow your show and make some of your decisions.

Yeah. So final words. Patience. Patience in podcast advertising is actually the perfect timing. So it's required to really make that work for you. Do not forget that your audience is looking for value first. And when you deliver that, then you earn the right to do all kinds of promotions and advertisements. And there are right ways to do it and wrong ways to do it. But it doesn't mean there's no way to do it right at that point. There is a way.

All right, well, let's make that a wrap. Thanks, Tracy, and thank you for all of our listeners. Remember, you can find the blog post for this episode on potatoes.com as well as all of our episodes. When you get in there, there's a search bar. And you know what, you can search on pretty much any topic. And when there's a relevant episode, which there probably will be, it's going to come up for you there. So don't forget to check that out. Other than that, thanks so much for listening. We'll be back next time with another great episode. This has been Tom and Tracy Hazard on Feed.

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