Understanding What Your Customer Wants At Their Core With Tracy Hazzard From The REALLY Know Your Customer Podcast With Betsy Westhafer And Tony Bodoh

Welcome to the really Know youw Customer Podcast with your hosts, Betsy Westhaefer and Tony Bodo. Join Betsy and Tony as they dive in with highly successful C Suite leaders who have grown successful organizations by creating a laser focus on listening to their customers and building deep customer relationships. Now it's time to join Betsy and Tony for the really Know youw Customer show.

Hi, and welcome to the really Know youw Customer Podcast. I'm Tony Butto.

And I'm Betsy Westhaver. Thanks for joining us today.

Today we have an amazing guest, Tracy Hazard. And what I really love about the conversation we're going to have is that Tracy is a designer, but she's also in the world of podcasting, and that's really where she puts her roots down today. And we worked with Tracy in the past and really enjoyed our time. We've had lots of conversations before, so we know her really well. So we're going to take you guys on a journey today that is going to really explore what's been happening in the world of podcasting, how businesses have transformed, and where it's going to go next.

I'm so excited for this episode, Toni. We love Tracy. We'll just put it out there. We love Tracy. And one thing that always strikes me when I have a conversation with Tracy is I know I'm going to leave with something I didn't know before I had a conversation with Tracy. So I'm always learning from her. She's just a rock star talent out in the business world, and I just can't wait. So let's not wait. Tracy, hi. Welcome.

Thank you. Love is mutual here. You know, I go on a lot of other podcasts, obviously. Cause it's kind of my job. But I love to have mind share when we have a conversation. It's not just an interviewing of me. And I know I'm gonna get that here. So thanks for inviting me.

Absolutely. Super happy to have you here. Let's kick off. You mentioned podcasting. Let's just like tell everybody what in the world is happening. It's just so explosive. And so bring us up to speed, first of all, on your career path on how you ended up podcasting. If you could just kind of walk us through that and then tell us what you're now and kind of talk about what's happening in the world of podcasting.

Yeah. So as Tony mentioned that I started my roots are in the world of design, actually. And originally that's where I came from. And six years ago I realized that the design world and what we were doing in product design, which we'd been designing and developing 250 products in a decade. Like, that's how many we did for mass market retail. So it was a lot of products all at once. Things you buy at Costco and Walmart and Target and things like that. And we realized that the world was shifting so much there that the designers were unimportant, that people were just straight shopping over in Asia and styling and not designing anymore. And so we realized that our role in that had to shift. And so at the same time, 3D printing emerged and some other things were going desktop. And we thought, let's see if we can build ourselves some thought leadership around there and come out from behind being a ghost designer, which is kind of what we were. So you'd never see our name on products. You'd see Martha Stewart's name on the products instead of ours. So, like that kind of thing. So we decided what's the best way for us to come out in front and let people know who we are, let them know the knowledge that we have so we can share it with everyone and we can maybe push out and develop a new business model based on that. So that's what we decided to do. We decided that it was going to be in 3D printing because it was a new area and it was exploding, and it was a great way for us to talk about product design and something innovative and technical at the same time. So that would be an exciting world for us as well. But what we didn't expect was that there would be no business for us, that there would be no services, that people didn't want to buy the services. What they wanted to buy was the information, and they wanted more and more of it. So fast forward about a year, and we had 100,000 listeners on our podcast called WTFF, which is the geeky term for 3D printing. Fused filament fabrication. So it's what the fuse filament fabrication. And we had 100,000 listeners, and we had just people asking us for more things. Do you have a book? Do you have courses? Do you have these things? And we're like, no, we're designers. We could do a project for you. We just. We didn't know what to do with that. We were shocked by it. So we started to adapt and we started to develop instead a more of an info model where the podcast was the business. And more people came to us and said, I have a podcast and mine's not doing as well as yours. What are you doing? And we literally had our first 12 clients shove their credit cards at us and said, take my business, please take over and take care of my podcast. Whatever you're doing is working. I want you to do the same thing for me. And that's how we ended up in business three years ago. And it went from 12. Now today we have. Gosh, I think I don't even know count right now because we've been growing so fast in the past four months. So I'd say we have over 400. Wow. So it went really fast this last four months. So you're asking what happened in the world today? And in the world today, consumption is up, but business has to change for the entrepreneur, for the business builder, for the corporate. When you can't drive people into your store, when you can't drive people because you met them at a networking event and you're not driving clients that way. When you can't do that in person, you have to find a way to be intimate with them. And podcasting is a great way to be intimate with your audience. And that's something that we hone in the strategy by which we help our clients launch their shows. So we are tapping into this very important get to know someone strategy. And really, it's an accelerated know like and trust model. So I actually just gave a talk on that, on how to build the trust factor, and we built in all of these things into that process.

Such an amazing journey. And what I love about it is you stayed open to where it might lead you. You know, you weren't like, nope, we're designers. That's what we do. You know, you stayed open, and you could have never probably imagined going from design school to having this really, really successful podcasting business. So your company's name is Potatoise, and so tell us about that business and who are some of the people that you work with?

Well, our company's name is Brand Casters, which is sort of the model of what we believe you should be casting your brand out there. Right. And that's sort of. It's a digital model. Right. We're ca. Our brand digitally, but the potatoes is the podcasting part of it. And so that's why we. That's, you know, we know potatoes.com, that's the website name. And so, you know, the interesting part about what we do there is we help people take over the technical and the things that they don't need to know, but we're powering it with lots of really good practices that they wouldn't possibly be able to get to, because they're caught up in the let's record, let's get the interface. So I want them to do the things that they do best, which is meet great people, invite them to be on their show if they're in a guesting model, or create great topics, and share that with my audience. Like, whatever your model is, I want that to be the only thing that you ever have to do. And everything else around you just is built to support you, built to be best in practice at all times. So we're constantly and continually improving. I want that to be so seamless so you can be brilliant and do what you do. Which is why we think we've been growing so much in the last three months, because people who need to get their business virtual, they need to move it online, they need to get digital fast. We're the fast track to doing that, because you don't have to learn 10 different things to get it going. You just go to us and we take care of it. So it's fast.

I love that, because there's kind of two levels here of really knowing your customer. One is you really know what your customers need, because you've mastered it from a podcasting perspective, and you've got now over 400 clients that you are constantly understanding. What is it that's really moving in the marketplace? How do we update it? What can we learn from all of them? And you adapt and grow there, and at the same time, it's your client who really knows what their customers need. So you free them up from all the other stuff that they don't need to know how to do so they can be an expert and really have that intimate connection. I mean, we've experienced that with our podcast. It's funny, I've had people, you know, reach out to me, call me, or message us and say, you know, I just love your podcast. You guys go into areas that no one else in the space goes into, and it feels like, you know, you're having this conversation, which is what we intended, and we strategize on the front end to really be doing so. I think that, you know, you guys are obviously onto something and you see what works in different spaces. So talk a little bit more about the relationships you have with 400 clients, all of them probably a little bit different. There's got to be segmentations that are similar, I would think. But how do you really get to know your customer in those cases?

Well, first off, they're very different all around, or they like to believe that they are right. So you have to add this sort of, you know, I would call it this really tight personal touch that makes them feel that they're getting something completely unique and special and that their show is not like everybody else is out there because it's extremely important to them. And we do build that in from the beginning. There are patterns and models we follow because, you know, certain types of things work. When you have guests on your show and you need guests to share your show in order to grow your show, there are strategies for doing that. So that might fall from one show to the next, but you might have totally different caliber of guests. So now we have to have a different strategy in place for those. So those are the custom things that we do at the very beginning, but we translate them into making sure that we put these things into a standard operating procedure for how your show is produced afterwards so that those things are highlighted, so that those things gray across. So underneath everything, we've technically made sure that uniqueness and you feeling special as a client is built into our process all along the way. And that you also have flexibility and it's not set in stone. You can change those things. So be giving people control and giving that customer the control of it, but also the guidance that we're not going to let them go wrong. Like when you want to change something and we think it's a bad idea, our team will reach out and tell you. And so that always makes you feel like you've got a safety net under you, so you feel like you're flying and you're doing really well, but the safety net is there and all the things around you are working on to meet your strategy, to meet your goals of why you're doing this to begin with. So that's why we, you know, that high touch in that process actually really helps. Now we have a problem with high touch in our personnel because we don't have enough people because frankly, we're growing too fast that we can't onboard them. And then with being stuck at home in our home offices, we were supposed to expand by now into an office with a full set of customer service people and customer success managers is what we were calling them. And we haven't. We just couldn't hire because we can't get in the office to do the training. And while we could do it virtual, we just don't feel good about it. We feel like that side by side of someone watching and listening to what's going on is a better model. And so we're just, just holding out a little bit longer and we're keep our fingers crossed. Two more months and we'll be able to move into that model. But it is creating a sort of constraint on us in terms of the ability of how much one on one, we can do. So it's a really good thing. We built the touch into the process itself.

Yeah, you guys are genius at process. So is it challenging, Tracy, because you work with sports figures, CEOs, authors, speakers, entrepreneurs. I mean, like, the people you work with are all so different, like, probably more than really most people could imagine because, I mean, we know who are Mark, who we're talking to, who we're messaging to, but you have such a broad spectrum of people that you work with. So talk to us a little bit about how you do that.

Well, luckily for me that I have so much experience working with different levels of people, so people who are in the startup stage all the way to really successful big brands. Like I mentioned Martha Stewart before, right? So, like, I have this experience of being able to work with people at all levels. So for me, that actually is the easy part is like, I can see where you are and I can see where you have to go. Right. So that path is very clear to me. It's always what I used to do in the design world is I was like, I see what you want to achieve here. Now my job is to figure out the how and what and I will get you there. Right? So that part is very clear to us. But it is hard, personality wise to work with people who think they know it all and think they've got it all undercover and they're thought leaders in their areas. And, you know, you've got to address this sort of like, you know, stroke the ego a bit and also make suggestions. So today I have a big challenge. So I interview people who are top podcasters on my show, which is called the Binge Factor. And so I have a podcast too, because I want to be right in it with my clients. I want to be having a podcast today and understanding how hard it is to fit in your day job. So I get that. So I have empathy with what's going on for you and how hard this is every day. So that helps me figure out, like, what don't I want to do, because that should be my next. My. The next thing I build into our system, right? So, but in this, today I have to interview someone whose show is not that good. So some publicist brought them to me. Like it, it sounds really good. And he's up There he's got top guests and all of this. And I'm sure the show is actually really working for him in terms of a guesting strategy. Like he's getting guests to become clients or guests to recommend clients. I'm absolutely positive that that's working for him or he wouldn't do it because he's got over almost 300 episodes. But I have to tell him the hard truth is that you don't really belong in the binge factor. The only thing that I can do is if you're willing and open minded enough, I can give you on air coaching. I can give you a mentorship session to help you move the show so that it actually would be more effective for you on all fronts. Wow, how did you do that? How do you have that tough conversation? That's where I become very skilled over the years is having that conversation of being a mentor to people who believe that they're mentors. Right. And so that's not an easy thing to do. It takes a lot of like smiles, let's be honest with you, smiles and compliments to suggestions on how they might want to try things. Now I have many clients who will walk away and do not one thing I suggest that they do and their show suffers for it. But I don't sit back and go, I told you so. I mean, we might do that behind the scenes, but I definitely would never do that to them. But you know, that happens. Like this is the case. It's like what I find is the more successful people are, the less open minded they are. And actually they're slowing their own growth and that's a shame. The more open minded ones, they are on a continual growth path and they pivot and they shift and their show grows and their business grows and they're capable of writing out any trouble that's going on in the world or difficulty. They'll be on to the next thing already because they were already open to it. They're not closed.

So that's fascinating to me. And I had a thought as you were talking earlier, but it weaves right into this one that is, if you look back 35, 40 years ago, it was all about getting information. Consulting was on the rise. Management consulting as an example. Right. And then it shifted about maybe 25, 20 years ago into this whole idea of experience and we began to see, okay, there's a lot more entertainment and edutainment and that type of thing. Well, today. And I think with the challenges we're facing right now, transformation is what people are Listening for, they're looking for, they're reading books and articles about. So it's like information, experience, transformation, kind of in the flow of it, in the economy. But what you just said is interesting. Someone who's successful and they know it, they know how they got there, they're not willing to transform, they're not willing to change. And that's what's opening the door right now for all these young whippersnappers, you know, that are coming up through the ranks, if you will. You know, they're willing to say, hey, the way I was doing business is no longer working. What can I do? Oh, there's podcasts. Look at xyz. Person or brand has been really successful. Let me go build my own podcast and take them on and challenge their positioning.

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, this is the thing also that I think about it is that this has always been the door opener for a new brand, right? That's always the case when, you know, Procter and Gamble gets, you know, stayed and old in all of their products. It's time for a new brand to come in. Right? And that's where we've been seeing that as it gets more accessible to be able to enter a market. And podcasting is a super easy way to enter the digital marketing. It's low cost, it has no high overhead. Just like Amazon created a level playing field for a product to be able to enter the marketplace. So, you know, when you look at those things going on, then that's really where the bigger brands, the thought leaders in the world, have to be worried. And you know, frankly, I have some of those on my platform. I have many of them who have like big, big names for 30, 40 years in this entrepreneur education space, and yet their websites aren't raking. There are YouTubers and Instagrammers and, you know, out there outdoing it with their information, outdoing them and getting more for the exact same advice. And so that frustrates them. And that's because we have to sit back and we still have to play by the technical rules, the algorithm, the digital world rules. And just because we are older and we don't know those rules and we don't think they apply to us, we're wrong. And that's because the gatekeepers in the world are Alexa, Siri, hey, Google, right? The new ones in the world are all voice activated platforms. And so we better start worrying about what the next thing is and what our next generation is. I tell this story all the time, but sure, I haven't told her that recently on a podcast. But I have a daughter who's just turned six and she is learning to read right now. But she can get Alexa to put on any music that she wants in the house. She can get her to tell her jokes, she can get her to do what she wants. So before she learned to read, she learned to control our assistant, our AI in the house. Right. My parents can't control it. They turn her off because they're afraid she's listening to them all the time. So, you know, thinking about what that generation is going to ask for going to do, and you're not tapped into that. What a shame of all this big brand stuff you've been working decades to build.

I've never thought about Siri and Alexa being gatekeepers, but that is such an apt description. So, Tracy, when people have a podcast and then they're trying to engage with their customers or prospects, but in this case, for the purposes of this question, when they're engaging with their customers, how do you coach them when it comes to you're putting out a podcast, what does that mean for your customers?

So we always want to be listener focused because I was mentioning before the acceleration of the know like and trust, really the only thing that matters is trust building. The know like is going to happen if they decide to give your show a shot. Right. Because you're in their ear. It's an intimate process. They're going to get to know and like you over time or they wouldn't stay listening. Right. They would have given up already. So we really just want to work on that trust factor as our predominant strategy. So I have three things that I like to build in that the number one thing is care. Like, I need to show whoever my audience is that I absolutely care about them and their well being and their future and that that is an honest, benevolent care in that process. Right. Because I to make sure that's coming across them, that the advice I'm giving you isn't just so you'll buy my stuff. Right. That advice I'm giving you, I want you to succeed with. Because when you succeed, it will translate to you crediting me back and either you'll send me someone or you will buy my stuff at that point. Right. That's the kind of model we want. So we want extreme care at the beginning for our audience. And sometimes our audience is our guest. Keep that in mind. So because that's we're in this model of our connection and networking with guests is the end goal of our podcast. It's not always the listenership. I have clients who have barely a dozen listeners a show and it is the connections and the meetings of the guests that drives more business for them. And so it is the care that they show the guest on the show that matters. So that care has to be placed. Right. Of course, you don't want to offend listeners in the process when caring for your guests. So we do want to try to do both at the same time. We will, but so we move from the care side. And now we need to show that credibility, right? Like that we are incapability, right? We want to do both things at the same time. So credibility and capability are the next two things. Credibility is simply of, if you want to do business with me, you need to know that I'm going to show up and I'm going to do what I say I'm going to do, right? And so by showing up week after week at exactly the same time, by giving and caring during that time, and then possibly by giving some kind of access to me and other things that they can consume for free and other things like that out there, whether it's videos or downloads or just other things that you have out there, you're grouping those things to show great credibility. And that now I trust, I'm starting to trust you even more now. Then the third thing is obviously most people go in and go, you should trust me because I'm a best selling author. You should trust me because I speak on stages next to Tony Robbins, like whatever that might be, right? That's usually the process that we go and we go and write through our skills and capabilities. But if we do that, then the question is, is that true or is that overstated? Are you like, is that fake on your resume? Like, we actually are skeptical about that as a listener or as the receiver of that information. So instead we want to take our skills and we want to demonstrate them throughout the process in a really good way. Like when you two hear you're demonstrating deep knowledge in how customer care happens because you both have tremendous experience. So it's coming across in the questions that you ask in the wrap up, when you talk afterwards and the points that you pull out. That's why people are listening to your show, because they've discovered that you do know what you're talking about. You're not running a show to host a show for its, you know, keyword ranking or something like that. You're not just doing it from a technical. You care and it matters. So when we pull those Things together, we accelerate that trust. And that trust is the key to everything.

I think one thing that stands out here as I'm listening to this is what I've seen in the evolution of working with clients over the years. This know, like and trust factor has always been talked about in sales. As far back as last year, I've been in business. But this element of they're going to get to know and like you, so don't even worry about that part of it. You've got to. You've got to do the right things. Right. But there's been a shift in the last two or three years that I've seen where if you're in B2B sales, as an example, you're going to review between five and seven different pieces of media. I use that term loosely. It could be a white paper, could be a book, could be, you know, blog posts, a podcast. But even before I reach out to a salesperson, I'm going to review a whole bunch of content from the same brand, probably from other brands. So I'm somewhat of an expert before I make a purchase, and I want to know that they're the right brand for me before I even reach out to them. On the consumer side, we see very similar things because we've got TripAdvisor and tons of other social review sites that people are going to and reading 3, 5, 7 reviews before they even say, do I want to purchase a product or do I want to stay here, whatever the particular industry is. So I find it really interesting as a podcast, gives you the opportunity to be front and center without selling anything. And people get to know who you are as a brand, as an individual, and they get to know a lot about you. So tell us a little bit more about this, the shift as you see it happening. And maybe where podcasts used to be X, now they're really focused on Y and what that big difference is.

Yeah. So, you know, we're moving in cycles. Okay. So we've come out. We're come out of a me cycle, and we're moving into a we cycle. And in a we cycle, we have to really focus on what's in it for everybody. And that shows. That's that care factor. Right. So if we are shifting our shows or if we are creating shows that are already at that and tapping into that, we understanding that we're all in this together, we're all going to grow this industry or we're all going to get better at customer service together. Right. Like, we're in that, then we're already in that we mindset. That's really good. But what we have is we have a whole section of podcast mentors out there and courses and books and other things out there that are all focused on what it was like six years ago. And six years ago, I chose not to do it their way. Six years ago, I chose not to put my face on the COVID We didn't make it the Tom and Tracy Hazard show. We could have. We didn't. We chose to make it about the what about the thing, about what we wanted to talk about, the community of what we were. Because we never lived in a me cycle. Just not who we are. It's not how we operate. And so I rejected it as against my brand, my personal brand. So while many are using podcasting to build a personal brand, you stick your face on it, you stick your name on it. That doesn't work. The only way you're gonna do that is working with your already existing fans and followers. It won't grow the show outside of it, because if you don't look like me, if I don't think and your show is named after you, then I think you're not in it for me. What do I have to gain from this? You know, if I know you already, because you're a celebrity and I'm a fan of your show, I'm a fan of you. I would watch your show. Right. I already know and like you. So I'm going to consume anything you have. That's the model only works for someone who's already made it in the. In the space. It doesn't work for someone who's trying to get known, get out there, get people to find them, be seen, heard, and found. I talk about that all the time when I give my lectures. Right. So, like, going out there and trying to make sure that that's happening. We need to tap into that, that we cycle and make sure that we're really diving deep into our area of expertise, our passion, or our curiosity. I mean, I have a show on blockchain. I'm not an expert in blockchain, but I'm curious about it, but I have a viewpoint on it. The show is called the New Trust Economy. We're focused on how blockchain can enable trust building at a faster rate. We're interested in the. That. That factor of it, not anything else, or when something's going wrong in the banking system that is breaking your trust. And so maybe cryptocurrency is the answer. Like, that's what we Talk about on the show. We don't talk about it from, you know, a standpoint of like, oh, I'm pro crypto, because I'm not, by the way, you know, but that's it. It's like you can still create that and create that viewpoint, even if you're not the expert, but you're creating a viewpoint frame of how you're going to look at the world, and then your job is to hold that tightly. Right. Or change it if you change your viewpoint.

Tracy, I'm curious. You touched on it a little bit, but with everything that's going on with the pandemic and all of that, what are you seeing as the impact on the industry of podcasting? And has anything dramatically changed pre Covid to now?

So I can tell you, Tom and I actually were sick the first week of sequestering. We both believe we got it. We couldn't get tested. So we both believe we've had Covid already. We're eventually going to get an antibody test at one of these points when we can finally get access to one. But. But we are lying in bed like sick as dogs. The whole family is sick. And we were taking more phone calls that week than we took the prior three. So we were closing sales in bed. That's how crazy the business was. Like, people were saying, oh, my gosh, I've been talking about this podcast thing. Now I better do it. So on the side of new hosts, we're exploding. But what we're seeing is that there's a clear difference between good shows and bad shows on the growth pattern. So not just anyone should start a podcast. You should start the right show for you, because not doing that means that your show will not grow in this. So what we clearly see, because we can see the traffic, because we also are a web. Like, you have a web host for your website. We're a podcast host for and distributor. So we distribute it out to all the networks for you. And what we can see is all the traffic of the podcasts that we have on our platform. And while the whole level has jumped up and raised and there's a significant more traffic than there was three, four months ago, what we are seeing is that it's uneven. It's not every podcast is going up in value or listenership. We're seeing it clearly defined into two areas. Those that have education and are those that have enough shows under their belt to train you in something that you need. So, like, let's say you want to learn how to do virtual webinars or virtual summits. There are podcasts for that. And you're going to go in there and you're gonna consume all 100 or 200 episodes or whatever they have. Because you massively need to learn this in time for next week when you are gonna be conducting a vir seminar, you know, and so like, oh, I'm on, you know, so that's where you're cramming, right? It's a way to cram in information quickly because we can listen to podcasts on two to three times speed. I don't recommend three times, but you can listen to one and a half, two times. I don't sound good at two times. But many people, you know, they can cram them in. So an hour long show is 30 minutes, a 30 minute show is 15 minutes. You can get a lot more content in. You cannot do that with video. So it's a faster way for them to consume it. It's in their ear. So they can also be taking notes, they can be thinking, they can be, you know, doing other things with their hand. I wash dishes sometimes, you know, put my makeup on in the morning. So he's giving them that flexibility to cram in as much information as possible. We clearly see those shows do really well. Shows that are helping people get out of themselves. Entertainment that is distracting you or shows that are helping you cope, those shows are doing well as well. So I consider those a little more on the entertainment side than I would consider them on the education side. And so, you know, I like a show that has a balance of edgy, as I call it. Right. You know, like in the middle of both. But, you know, the clear entertainment ones, those are our distractions. Those are the ones we need to like, get out of ourselves and, you know, forget that we have, you know, homeschool our kids or whatever it is that you're stressing about and worrying about. There are those on that side and some of those are, you know, frankly, those. There's a growth in political commentaries and other things that are going on because people are very stressed about the movements and what's going on in the world. So we're clearly seeing growth on that too. But the ones in the middle that don't have a clear strategy, that are following a model that's old and outdated, their shows just aren't growing, they're just not doing anything. And there's a pattern to it. If I start a show and I like it, this is what I'll do, or if I think I might like it. So I search for it, I find a cool name. It looks cool. The COVID art looks interesting. I'm like, this sounds like it might be in the area of what I want. I'm going to read the short description. No one reads the big long description, but they read the short one and then they go to the first episode. So if your first episode is not getting its most listens, then your first episode needs to be redone because it means that you're not giving a proper introduction. So get a proper introduction in there. You can always add episode zero on and bring that on and get a little short trailer about what this show is going to be about and who you are and why you're there. Guide them, simple. The next thing that will happen is they'll either go 2, 3, 4, like they'll give it three more episodes or they'll go two and jump to the last episode and go backwards. And so that's how binge listening happens. But if you aren't seeing that traction at the beginning and then again at the end that they're getting to the end, you're missing something in the process that's really interesting.

Just, that's how you know your customers. Customers, right. You know, you understand this, you know, binge listeners, you've done the homework to know what your customers, customers are doing and thinking. That's really interesting.

Yeah. And you know, people think that they can't shift, right? Like, you know, if you've had a show for a while and it's been the ME show and it's time for you to shift to the next level, shift, because your audience that has already been there, that has been following you, is going to keep following you. There's no way they don't want to see what your transformation is, as Tony was putting it before. They want to see where you're going because they're watching you, because they're modeling you or they wouldn't be listening. So the fear of I'm going to lose my audience is a mistake. Technically you can make some mistakes there and technically get someone to help you so you don't just abandon your show and start a brand new one, that you do it right. But your listeners want to come with you if they already know like and trust. So there's no reason for you not to pivot, not to shift to attract new, if that's what you need in this day and age.

I think that it's such interesting to think about how to pivot, how to shift right now. And really this whole idea of Me to we is fascinating because the consumer, the end listener, is really focused on me. The podcaster has to be focused on the we. And the more the we sounds like, oh, he or she is focused on me as a listener, the more success there's going to be. They're giving me something of value, something to help me transform, because we're going through a massive stage of transformation between our kids learning how to do school online from the classroom. People weren't learning to work online. I realized the other. In fact, just two nights ago, it's been 103 days since I had alone time. And I'm an introvert, and I love my alone time. But we have been home as a family for 103 days, so I have to get away.

Yikes.

I have the same thing. Like, Tom and I are like, we have not been alone in so long. I'm so excited because two weekends I get to go to my first conference away. So it's opening up. It's a really small conference, Betsy. You know, it's Aaron Young's inner circle, so I'm sure you're having him on your show at some point, if you haven't already. But there's only gonna be 10 people there. Like, it's like, not a big, you know, thing. It's really small. And I'm so excited because it just means I can get away. Like, that's it.

Yeah. I think we're all there just itching to have that human interaction and get back to at least parts of what used to be. Like, Tracy, this is just. I can't believe how fast time flies when we're with you. It's just been amazing talking to you. And of course, as I said at the start of the show, always learn a lot. And so it's been very, very helpful. One of the things that we like to do on the show is ask our guests, is there any nonprofit or community give back or just something that has your attention that you want other people to know about and could shine a spotlight on? So if you have anything you want to talk about, now's your time.

Yeah. So I'm a big proponent, and it comes from our 3D printing days of Girls in Steam. So there are a ton of organizations out there, and, you know, but my big point is to get art into the stem, so get that big A in there. And Tony's laughing and smiling because he knows, because his daughter's emerging as an artist, and I've already commented on that. She's got talent. I can tell but the reason I love the A in there is not just because it's the I'm a fine artist or that kind of background, but it's because it involves humanities as well. So when we look at our science, our technology, our engineering and math, our stem, and we forget to put it in context of what it's going to do to move humans forward, right. For a social good, and we forget to look at it under that lens of humanity, then we have an issue with our technology. And that's why I think we see these stumbling blocks of, like, oh, should we do facial recognition? The question is AI safe? Like, you know, I get these questions all the time when I'm asked in innovation conferences. And, you know, these things are, if we don't have controls in place from our own standpoint and how we're developing them, that has a humanity focus. It's not going to develop into something good. It's going to develop into something that overwhelms us, that creates a lot of negativity, that breeds hate. Right. So our job in that is to bring that in. So any organization that is working on girls in steam, I love, because I have girls. Like, that's simply it. But I also think we, you know, I want more women and viewpoints from women in there. And Tony's not because he has daughters, because I think that also helps to bring harmony into our viewpoints. Just like I believe in absolute diverse voices all around, that is really important to me as well. So we work really hard on all of our shows, on everything that we do, to make sure there's absolute cultural diversity, gender diversity. But we also want to bring in this humanity focus at all times in everything we do from our technology side.

Love it, love it, love it. Traci, I just had a thought. It just triggered when you were talking about going to conferences and how you're ready to get back out there. You're an amazing speaker. You do I don't know how many speaking engagements a year, plus your own podcasts and all of the things that you do, and you're such a professional. And it just reminded me of the time when you and I were out in California together and we both had speaking engagements and we both had the stomach flu, and we're hiding.

We had a horrendous stomach flu, and.

We were hiding upstairs in the inner corner of the hotel in the fetal position before taking the stage. And yet you got out there and you crushed it. And luckily I had already done my piece before I started feeling bad. I couldn't leave. And so anyway, just such a consummate professional. And my hat was off. Tears like, man, I don't know how she's doing it.

Well, all I can say is there's a lipstick is really great to, like, hide all kinds of pallor in your face. And, you know, the adrenaline of speaking and being in it for the audience like that is really it. At the end of the day, I know why I need to show up, and I'm there for them that you can swallow down a lot, but I thought I might have hurled off that. Walked off that stage and hurled that day. Everyone was lucky. They didn't see that.

Nobody knew the difference. Well, Tracy, thank you so much. It's always a pleasure. I know people can find you a lot of places, but where do you like to have people find you?

So I like to hang out on LinkedIn. Like, if you want to actually hear my viewpoints or talk to me or get what's going on, that's where I post regularly. That's where I am. You can message me there and find me there. I'm always looking to connect with new, amazing people. So LinkedIn's the easiest way. And it's Tracy Hazard with two z's. That's the only confusing part.

All right, Tracy, well, thank you again so much. Tell your wonderful partner and husband that we say hello because he is equally awesome. And again, thanks for all you do to support our efforts on our podcast, and we will talk to you soon. Tracy.

Wow, that was just amazing. I know I say that after every show, but honestly, I am so amazed at the guests we have. And Tracy is just one of the standouts for me, in part, her understanding of human experience and this whole idea of care and credibility and what you need to do to build that trust factor so people continually listen. You know, we may have been talking in the context of podcasting, but honestly, it's about the customer. It's about really knowing your customer and understanding what do they want at their core, fundamentally, what is it that they're seeking and how do you deliver that.

Yeah, and Tracy's such a unique person because she's very left and right brain. You know, she's artistic, she's creative, she has this big heart. She understands people. But then she has this process side to her, too. And both of these things come together so well to serve their customers, because with 400 customers, you have to be process oriented. And so she's just a really good mix that way. And that's one of the many things I admire about her. But what I really took away from this episode is just, it's not easy. You can't do it the same way all the time. You have to keep evolving and you have to keep caring and you have to keep. Keep wondering and have that curiosity. What matters most to our customers?

Yeah. And as we've navigated over the last three to four months here with, you know, COVID 19 and the quarantines and everything else, the conditions of the world changed overnight, literally for most people, most businesses, most employees. And as she said, she has seen on the back end how the podcast listening has changed and what's successful today and what's not as successful today. And so I think it's really important to really recognize that you have got to be out there in front of your customers, listening to your customers, maybe embedded with your customers. As she said, she runs podcasts so she understands what people are going through and what they need next and the next service to provide. And one of the ways that I used to test technology companies when I was in that space of bringing technology into the corporations I worked for was to ask them if they use their own software. And that's something that I have lived by because if they don't use their own software, then how do they really understand? How do they really know their customers?

I can't think of a better way to wrap that is absolutely true. Toni, thanks for being on this journey with me. It's always a pleasure. It's so much fun. And thank you audience for being there today. We hope you enjoyed this podcast episode as much as we enjoyed our conversation with Tracy. And we will see you next time on the really Know youw Customer podcast.

Thanks for joining us for this episode of really Know youw Customer. We hope you gained a lot of value from being here today. If you want to learn more about the work Betsy and Tony do to help their clients thrive, Visit Betsy at thecongruitygroup.com and Tony@tonybotto.com See you next time on the really Know youw Customer.