What's Behind The Podcasting Surge? From Starting Out To Shining Bright With Dave Jackson Of School Of Podcasting

Wish you were one of those influencers with raving fans who binge on your every word, consume all your content, buy everything you have to sell, and demand even more. Then stay tuned while Authority magazine columnist and buzzfeed contributor Tracy Hazzard shares strategies, tips and tactics from top videocasters, podcasters, authors, and social influencers on creating that bingeable factor. Now let's join Tracy as she explores how to rise above all the digital noise with the binge factor.

Hey everyone.

Welcome to Feed your Brand. I'm Tracy Hazzard and I've got Dave Jackson today.

And Dave Jackson is I OG Podcasting to the nth degree School of Podcasting. He taught us how to podcast way back when.

He's been doing this since 2005, and he is just amazing. He has such technical knowledge of the do it yourself side of podcasting, how to edit, what tools to use all the different nuances, how things have changed over time.

And so I'm so excited that I get to have a conversation with him because too often he and I are seeing each other at events and we never have a chance to connect and really talk. And he made this happen because we were happened to be in a chat group for another event that we were both keynoting at.

It was just so great that he reached out and I'm so glad to get him on the show finally.

I can't believe we haven't done it before.

Now, let me tell you a little.

Bit more detail about him in case.

You haven't heard of him before. Dave Jackson began podcasting in 2005 and launched the School of Podcasting. His School of Podcasting show has over 3.3 million doll.

He says that he doesn't have 10,000 downloads. He's going to tell you that per episode, but the reality is he's got about 3,600 per episode on average.

That's amazing. That's a quality show because he has over 897 episodes. At the time we're recording this, he's helped hundreds.

I think it's probably much higher than that.

Probably thousands of people plan, launch and grow their podcasts. And he's the author of the book Profit from youm Podcast. Proven Strategies to Turn Listeners into a Livelihood, and he's featured speaker at events. In 2016, Dave joined Libsyn, the largest.

Podcast hosting company, as a part of.

Their tech support team. And in 2018, he was inducted into the Academy of Podcasters hall of Fame. You can find him at School of Podcasting on social media on YouTube and on his website there. School of Podcasting. I'm so glad to get Dave to talk with us today and really dive into all these nuances and all the changes that have happened in the podcasting industry. So let's hear Dave Jackson, School of Podcasting. Dave, I'm so glad to finally get.

You here and get us in the same room. We seem to bookend a lot of events together. One of us opens, the other one closes, but we never get to talk. I'm so glad we're having that opportunity here.

Yeah, you're always one of those people I see in the hall and I'm like, oh, what? Catch up later.

And then it never happens when we're always so busy. Exactly. Well, School of Podcasting has been going on for quite some time. 897 episodes as we record this. Wow. And you have been podcasting since 2005. And so, as I mentioned in my open, I learned how to podcast from you.

Happy to help. I did not know that. It's interesting because you're in a spare bedroom talking to nobody, and you don't always get a chance to see the effects you have on people or what's happened because you decided to press record. So that was very cool to hear that.

Well, yeah, that's so true.

Right?

You don't know who's out there.

And especially back in 2005, some things.

Have come a long way, baby.

I would love to know what you like most about podcasting today.

Oh, it's so much easier. I mean, back then I was doing websites in Dreamweaver and making my feed in another software. So now it's like everything's just all in one. Even, like, I always Recommend the Zoom PodTrack P4. That about 5 years ago was about $1000, and now it's like 200 bucks. And you can podcast from the woods because it runs on batteries. So the fact that there are now pieces of equipment that are being made for podcasters because there's so many of us, that's really cool. Where before we're like, well, we might be able to use this thing, and if we duct tape it to this, it might work kind of thing.

So, yeah, it's less hacked than it used to be. That's so true. True.

Absolutely.

But you still love some things about podcasting. What is it that you've loved from the beginning?

I think one of my favorite things is I'll have somebody. I remember once somebody called me up and said, I want to start a podcast, but there's no way I'm going to do it. And I go, why? And she's like, I hate technology. Technology hates me. And a couple weeks later, she calls me up, she's crying, and I go, what's the matter? She's like, I'm in itunes. And I go, yeah, I told you yesterday when we put it in there that It'll take about 20 weeks. I'm in itunes, and the whole thing is like, I told you I couldn't do it. You said I could, and now I did, and holy cow, I can't believe I'm in itunes. And so watching someone who doesn't believe in themselves eventually believe in themselves. And then it's kind of weird because first they go from, nobody's going to listen to me. And I go, yes, they will. Well, nobody's going. So that kind of stops them from launching. Then I finally get them to launch, and then it turns around. The direct opposite of holy cow. People are listening to me, and I'm like, yeah, I told you they would. So that's always what puts gas in my tank. I did have one person that as much as I've had all these different things happen to me, this is the one that stands out. And he said, my friend of 20 years died suddenly. My job of 20 years died suddenly. And I thought I had cancer. And my favorite holiday is Halloween, And I decided I was going to blow my brains out on Halloween. But I heard your podcast, and you said, sometimes having a podcast can give you a purpose. So I started a podcast, and I just want to let you know I now credit you with saving my life. And I'm like, look, I'm talking next to the water heater in a basement about microphones. I had no idea. So that's the one that I'm always like, again, going back to. You don't know who's listening. You have no idea what impact I had a guy. And if you ever come to Akron, Ohio, I will buy you Luigi's pizza. And so this old listener of mine said, hey, I'm going to be in Akron, Ohio. I want my pizza. And I'm like, all right. And he said, do you remember how you used to open You're. I did a podcast for musicians. And I go, I don't remember what I had for breakfast, let alone what I said 18 years ago. And he said, used to say, for those who have money, there is therapy. For the rest of us, there is music. That's how I would sign off. And he goes, I'm now A professor of music. And I open up every semester with that. And I'm just like, what?

Okay, you're getting quoted. You, back to you again. That's one of my favorite parts too.

I do love that you have this.

Random impact and someone will say, oh, and I repeat this to my students. And I say this all the time.

Thank you.

That makes me feel good.

It's humbling, but as a teacher, all you want are willing students. So when somebody not only consumes your content, but then does something with it. I don't have any kids, but I had one person say. He goes, look, your thumbprint's in here somewhere. He goes, this wouldn't like. You just said, I wouldn't have started this podcast without you. So it's kind of weird to throw your pebble into the lake and just watch the ripple effect.

So I always say to everyone here that I start a new podcast every single year so I can see what it's like for my clients. But you started 32 shows over the years here. How did you learn from some of those shows?

One, if you want to do a call in show and you don't have an audience, that's not going to work. So myself and my ex wife decided on a dare. So there's another one, maybe not start a podcast on a dare to do the Dates from Hell show. And we had a few each, but then we ran out of stories and we're like, hey, send us your stories. And it was a brand new podcast, so we didn't really have much of an audience. So that was one. The other one was one of my backgrounds, besides teaching is customer service. And so I started the customer service show and by the end it was just me being grumpy. It was just like, I can't believe I went into this place today just complaining. And so I think I did the traditional, like seven episodes of that before I found out, oh, that's my job, but it's not my passion. So there's that. My first podcast I did for musicians. I did that 11 years. And just after a while I was like, I think I've said all there is to say on this subject. And I just had kind of lost my passion.

Yeah, that's like our first one on 3D printing. I was like, yeah, I don't want to talk about 3D printing anymore. I like 650 episodes later, I'm good.

The latest. 2. I started a show on Akron, Ohio, because I wanted to do a local show because I thought it would be fun to Play. Except I don't really have that much passion about my hometown. I love living here, but it wasn't really what I was looking for. And then I started one called the Podcast Trailer Show. And the problem with that is I didn't have any control over the content. It was other people's trailers. And as much as I would think every podcast has a trailer for their podcast, they don't. So it took a lot of time to find a good one. And the return on investment, I was just like, yep, this is. Nope, thanks. Nevermind. Done. We'll add this to the list.

So this one's not gonna work. It was a lot more work. I know I did a segment here on the Binge Factor where we're gonna do a giving Tuesday. But to compile those, search them, find a good podcast to give a shout out to, like, a worthy one. It was just too much work.

Yeah. And so I started on that show saying, hey, just a reminder, I'm playing these promos not because I think the show's good, but because they had a promo. And I'm like, when you have to do a disclaimer at the beginning of your show, hey, the fong information is awful. I'm like, that's not good.

You also are an author. You've got profit from your podcast, proven strategies to turn listeners into livelihood. I think profit from podcasting is one of the hot topics, Right? This is one of those areas where there are not enough people profiting from their podcast. What do you think some of those big challenges are that you've discovered over the years?

The big one is a, like, every coach should have a podcast. Every coach. Because when you publish on a regular basis, you're seen as trustworthy. Anytime you can make a point by telling a personal story, they get to know you. And if your content's good, they're going to like you. So there's the whole know, like and trust. But what I hear a lot of times is anytime you go to promote yourself, you just feel like a used car salesman from the 70s selling a bucket of bolts. I had a friend of mine, I'd known her for about six months at the time. I helped her launch a podcast. I said, how's the podcast going? She's like, I'm not getting any leads for speaking gigs. And I go, wait, you do speaking gigs? I go, I've known you for a half a year. Like, I've never heard you mention this. And I go, I've listened to all your episodes. I've never heard you say it. And she goes, I don't want to be all salesy. And I go, well, you have to mention it. You can't just hope people read your mind. And she was picturing something like, you know, this Sunday, kind of over the top advertising. I said, all you have to do is say, hey. On today's show, I was speaking to a bunch of high school kids in Brooklyn and this one young man came up and asked me this question. And I thought, man, that would be a good topic for a podcast. I go, there you go. You just let your audience know you speak to kids. I go, it doesn't have to be this giant polished ad. Just let people know. This is what you do. But you do have to ask. It's the same thing. I talk about crowdfunding. I go, please note, the first part of that word is crowd. So when you're trying to crowdfund all four people that are listening to your show, that's not gonna work. But you do have to mention it. You have to treat it almost like a sponsor and deliver value. So that's some of it for me. I think most people think I'm gonna start a podcast and get ads. And you can. I've never got anywhere near 10,000 downloads, which is what most big advertisers the better helps the blue aprons. I've never come anywhere near that. But my show is niche, so I've had microphone manufacturers and editors and websites for podcasts and things like that. So things that fit my audience. But I don't do that anymore because for me, the most profitable thing is selling your own products and services because you've got that relationship with your audience and they want to work with you because again, they know like and trust you. So if somebody wanted to sponsor my show, it would be insanely expensive because you're bumping me. Unless I add it. I get nervous every time I turn on the radio. It's like 30% ads. And I don't want to come anywhere near that benchmark. I'm like, that's not a benchmark we're trying to hit.

I think the record I've had was a four minute ads at the beginning of a show because they were running the anchor ads, the Spotify ads, and then their ads. And it was four minutes worth of ads before the content started. And I don't think they even realized because they were just like, I'm signing up for ad programs so I can make ad dollars. And they weren't even thinking about the listener experience.

Yeah, I know a lot of people love to quote Joe Rogan, who used to have seven minutes of ads. I go, yeah, that's Joe Rogan. He started his career in 1989. You're not Joe Rogan. When you have hundreds of millions of people downloading your show, then you can think about that. But in the meantime, I always say it's plan, launch, grow. And a lot of people want to skip planning and go from launch to monetize. And I'm like, you skipped a couple.

Steps there or monetize before they launch. That I've heard too.

Yeah, it's rare. It does happen. I had a friend of mine that started a podcast about vertical farming, which is again, hyper niche topic, and he found a company that works in vertical farming and actually got them to sponsor a show that wasn't even launched yet. But that is the exception, not the rules. So it does happen.

That's right. It's very exceptional. I love that. I'm a big fan of plan, and.

That'S what I think people really miss.

There's a whole bunch of coaches in the podcasting space you and I know out there who are all about just starting. Grab your iPhone and just start.

And the problem with just start is there's no strategy.

There's no strategy. There's no target audience like some people think they've done. Like, hey, I'm going to do a show for widows. Okay, well, you've just cut out all the men, so that's good. But there's still a big difference between the 38 year old widow who lost her spouse in a car accident versus Mildred, who's 95 and lost Harold, who was 98, to natural causes. So when you do an episode about, hey, ladies, we're going to talk about getting back out in the field today. I know Mildred was kind of wild on her day, but I don't think she's interested in getting back out in the field. You really have to know who your audience is. And the hard part is you have to figure out why am I doing this. So am I just doing it to be seen as a person of whatever, a thought leader in the space? Am I doing this to promote my products and services? Am I just trying to get the word out, whatever it is, and then you have to figure out who my audience is. And you can't just talk about what they want to talk about because then you talk about, I don't know, French toast recipes and cat videos. That doesn't get you where you want to go. And if you just talk about what you want to talk about. That's called an infomercial. So it's a matter of where do they overlap? What can I talk about that's going to hold their attention while getting them to my why? And that's why. Oh, just start. Okay, you can. But it would be a little better to, as the old Abraham Lincoln quote, right. Sharpen the axe for four hours. If it's going to take five hours to cut it down, sharpen that first and figure out where you want to go.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, you've been doing this quite some time, and you have a mix of episodes. And one of the things I like to do here on the Binge Factor.

Is talk about what your binge factor is.

And I think that people have already heard it. This is exactly the thing that you do on your show. The binge factor for your show is I'm going to go all the way back and listen to all these episodes.

Because you've got the practical advice and wisdom and the storytelling blending in together in such a wonderful way that it leaves an impression on what I should do. And it's not just this list of things that I like. Oh, and use this piece of equipment and use this and try that. And it's just this list of things.

That I really be better off reading the blog. At the end of the day, your.

Storytelling makes the change to leaving that impression on me. So. So I really digest it, I think about it, and I'm ready to come back for more.

And I always explain something that shows I did some research. Cause I could just say, hey, buy this microphone. Cause it's pretty okay. But if I actually go out and buy it, and I think people are looking for objectivity, so here's what I liked about it. But when you also say, but I do hate the fact that there's no on, off switch or whatever it is, and then they're like, oh, wait a minute. This isn't just somebody saying, this is great. So I'll use their affiliate link like, this person has a little integrity. And I always say every podcast starts with two things. No audience and integrity. And the goal is to grow an audience while keeping your integrity. Because the minute you say, this is a great product because you really want that affiliate income or whatever it is, and then somebody buys it and they go, this is crap. Well, they're not going to believe anything you ever say. So that's one of the things I try to do is explain like, here's what I am. And I also Explain to people that, look, I'm a middle aged white dude, and this is why I think this is cool. If you're not a middle aged white dude, you may have a completely different perspective on this. And so I try to just be as honest. And I remember once I had a guy that had bought a bunch of equipment, and he bought something that really he didn't need. He had already bought one recorder. And then he bought this Rodecaster thing, which is like 600 bucks. And I go, wait, why did you buy that? And he said, oh, you said it was cool. And I was like, whoa, hold on, this microphone is loaded. I got to be careful on what I say. So there are times when I'll say, hey, if you have this equipment, that's fine. You don't need to upgrade. But here's what the new one does. So I'm always trying to do it. Number one, I inherited the frugal gene, the cheap gene from my dad. So I always spend your money like it's mine. And then I just want to make sure that you're going in educated so you can make the right choice for you.

And I think that that's part of the charm of your show. But the way that you do it, it's so wonderful because I have it at different levels. I know when you're talking to a beginner, I know when you're talking to the advanced podcaster, because you put it.

In context for me, and that really helps.

And that's what I want to talk about now is that grow phase. Because it is really so hard when we get to over hundreds of episodes like you have.

There's a whole bunch of different technical challenges and growth challenges, monetization and profitability challenges and decisions that have to be made. There's a different set than there are when you're starting out.

And one of them I think that I'm seeing as a trend going on.

In the industry, and I do see.

It in yours as well, is as.

You get more advanced in episode numbers, you actually do less interviews and you do more of your own content.

Originally, it was all solo stuff. I did the very rare occasion of an interview. And the reason for that is what's the why of my podcast? I'm trying to position myself as an expert, and I want you to join the school of podcasting. So it can't just be a giant commercial, but it was me. The other nice thing about a solo show, no scheduling conflicts. Don't have to worry about the person's audio sounding bad. It's pretty easy, and I can just hit record and go to town. So I've always liked solo shows, but one of the really biggest takeaways of podcasting is relationships, because relationships lead to opportunities, and opportunities lead to meeting more people, and those people lead to more opportunities. Like, I just spoke in Bath, New York. I said, who hired me? Like, I don't even know how I got here. And it was a woman who had met me at podfest. So then I was like, well, how did I get to PodFest? Well, I met Glenn Hebert at Podcast Movement, and I asked him to be on my show. So you just kind of trace things back. You can see that again. Relationships lead to opportunities, opportunities lead to more. Relationships lead to more opportunities, and it just kind of snowballs. So I always say, do a solo show because it grows your influence, and do interviews because it grows your network, and you kind of need both.

And that's what I'm seeing is bigger.

Trend towards having both in the mix.

And then it's sort of if those that started with all interviews thinking that was going to be easier and did a great job of networking and doing all of that, tend to pull in more and more solo shows, so then they maybe tip their balance and do three solos and one interview a month.

Or if they started with solos, they tend to bring it in the other way with one interview a month and.

Kind of keep it going that way.

Yeah. And if you do a interview show, there was a guy, I don't know, probably 90s, I guess, there was a guy named Jerry Springer. It's one of these shows where they were throwing chairs and punching people and screaming at each other. And what was funny is, at the end of this, Jerry would come over and they'd kind of dim the lights and he'd go, what did we learn today? So I always tell people, if you have. And you do a great job of this, by the way, when I was listening to your show after the interview, you're like, here was my big takeaway from my talk with so and so. Because you kind of want to remind the audience in a very kind of passive aggressive way, like, I am the expert here. It is my show here and so. And that's where instead of doing a lot of kind of, oh, I've done that too. In the middle of the interview, now you get to tell your personal story and what your takeaway was. And again, it gets back to letting your audience get to know you a little bit. So if you are doing interview shows, add a Jerry Springer at the end and wring all you can out of that interview.

That's right. Bring it all together at the end. I love that. I really am a fan of that.

Consistency model and I know you are too.

And that's one of the things that you've really done here, is by building up this gigantic library and being consistent.

Over the years is you've proven that you're the worthy expert for an audience to give its attention to. And that's really hard for someone to.

Come in and break into. That's a great position to stay as an expert.

Right. But it's not easy. One of my backgrounds again is teaching and I learned really quick that if you're not continually learning stuff, you're going backwards. And so I understand what ChatGPT is. I've played with it. But I have like three toes in the water. I know there's so much more that can do. And so that's really the challenge is if I'm going to stay up with technology because it always changes and storytelling and everything else. So I'm happy. I love to learn because I'm always reading and watching videos and YouTube and this and that. So it's kind of the thing where, because I have a passion for podcasting, I don't mind watching YouTube videos on ecamm live and everything else because it looks like I'm a workaholic because I'm always consuming content and my sister in law once said, you are always in front of a computer. I said, it looks like I'm working. Trust me, I'm having fun. This is what I love to do. So that's where that kind of comes into play. You do need to every now and then turn it off, go out in the woods and say hello to deer and decompress a little bit or actually.

Talk to people live instead of virtually, right?

Absolutely.

There's so many new tools you just mentioned. There's AI and there's new things coming out. But I'm seeing a bigger and bigger trend on video podcasting where you're also having video as well.

What are you seeing there?

Well, what I hate to hear is I'm going to use video to take my podcast to the next level. That's not really what you're doing. You're starting a YouTube channel is what you're doing. Video takes more time, takes more gear. Now you have to shave and get ready for the camera. And keep in mind that video or audio will always outperform video. Because I can't watch your video. In the car. I can't watch your video while I'm washing the dishes, things like that. But I can multitask and listen to a podcast in the car. Bill Maher, the comedian, started off a podcast and he just wanted to do video and we talked him into doing audio and he had a team that was just promoting the video. And even with all that work, the audio outperformed the video about somewhere between 5 to 10 to 1. It was a considerable margin. And so I'm not anti video. If you've got the time and the budget, you're missing out a huge opportunity to not be on YouTube. What I hate to see is the person that tries to jumping into the pool. I'm like, start off with audio, get used to making some content and then maybe throw video into the mix. Because when you try to do both, it can be a little overwhelming. But I know I go down the YouTube shorts rabbit hole about three times a week where I'll just start watching. And another one, and another one. Okay, this is the last one. Okay, last one again. So it's definitely a great tool. If you've got the budget, the bandwidth and the time, absolutely do it. The thing about video is like right now we're recording this as a video. You can take this and be just audio only, but you can't take an audio only podcast. Yeah, you can do the thing with the little image in that whole nine yards, but it's not quite the same. If you try to go backwards and try to turn an audio into a.

Video, no, it doesn't work.

In fact, it's 10 to 1.

So you're going to get 10 times more value from actual live video than you are from an audiogram.

Yeah, see, there you go. And I've talked and I've heard from many people about the audiogram with a little squiggly line. And all of them have kind of said, yeah, we don't do those anymore.

Yeah, it just doesn't work. I'm a big fan of using the video and using human faces because people like that in video and that's why we capture it here.

But it's really a promotion tool.

I don't expect the views to be real consumption model. I'm still creating it for my podcast.

At the end of the day, that it is simply video is the promotion tool.

That's a great way to think of it. It is funny because there are people on YouTube that just watch YouTube nonstop and there are people that just listen to podcasts all day. And I Had somebody join my membership site that found me on YouTube and she said, oh, wait, you do audio stuff too? And I was, yeah, a little bit.

Weren't you actually listening when you were watching?

I was like, holy cow. So it is a different audience and the whole point of growing your content is to find people who don't know who you are and get in front of them. So video is one of those ways.

Well, and that's something that we talk a lot about on my other show feature. Brandon here on the Binge Factor is really, we're talking about being in those multi modes of learning, right? So you want to be visual for the visual learners, you want to be audio for the auditory learners.

And you're a big SEO proponent.

You were talking about the starting blogs and doing those things in the early days of podcasting, which is really was like, podcasting was like a blog extension.

In those early days. What do you look at? And do you still do a lot of SEO work?

Yeah, I am somewhat adhd. Take your pick, whichever letter you want to throw in there. But I found out that my previous workflow was, okay, I know what I want. I'm going to talk about, I'm going to write down five bullet points, I'm going to talk to my invisible friend across the desk and we're done. And then after I edit it, I'm going to type up my show notes. And after about the third time of going, oh, you know what I should have said there? And then it was like, okay, do I go back and edit this? And I'm like, nah, we're done. So I've switched. Now I write a blog post to figure out what do I want the big takeaway to be here. So I'll write a blog post, then I'll boil it down to my five bullet points. I'll talk to my invisible friend across the desk, and then we're done. But I'm more focused and people go, I don't have time to write a blog post. The time I spend writing a blog post leads to better content and it leads to less editing. I'm not reading my blog post, but I've really figured out what the heck I'm trying to say. And so we all talk about, I need to be on YouTube. Video's the next big thing. What's the number two search engine? And I'm like, yeah, what's the number one search engine? Oh, that's right, Google. And what does it want? Good words. So to me, I'm like, I want to write A blog post. I still say a podcast to the listener at least, or to the new listener is kind of a blog post with a player on it. And then you just put your Follow buttons underneath that and hope that they get the hint. But it's funny, because I'm starting to use more of these AI tools, and I'll write a headline I look at, I go, does that make me want to click? And I go, yeah, it does. I'll have like, three or four, and I'll put them into these AI tools, and they'll be like, okay, that's a 60, that's a 55. This one's a 72. Nothing near like a 80 or 90. After a while, I just was like, yeah, but I want to click that. I know the robot said it's not good because it doesn't have amazing and doesn't make it kind of clickbaity, But I'm like, I write for people. And so there are times when some sort of AI tool kind of put me in a different perspective, that I'm like, oh, I never thought of that. So I'll use AI to brainstorm. But in the end, I'm a person and I write for people. And so to me, if that headline makes me want to click it over the one that the robot suggested, I'm going with the one that the human said. Let's go with that.

I am a big fan of the human headlines. And I used to have this problem when I was writing a column for Inc Magazine that I would be like, they would be like, that doesn't rank high. They were even doing this a decade ago. And I would be like, but people who want to know, want to know this. Like, this makes sense.

And at the end of the day, that would be what people chose.

That's it. There's a tool now that I kind of go, couldn't I just do that for free? Where if you type something into Google, you'll see about halfway down the page, after you get past the 8 million ads that are there now, you'll see people also asked, and somebody said, you should look at those. People also asked and put those as headlines. Not headlines, but sub headlines, I guess in your blog post, which is again, your podcast, because, you know, people are searching for that. And I was like, that's a really, like, super, like, wow, why didn't I think of that kind of SEO trick? And there was. I forget the name of the tool that you basically could give them $15 a month and they would do this for you. And feed it to you. And I was like, not that 15 bucks is going to break me.

It's already there. You just type it in yourself.

Right?

I could just do that and look at there. But that stuff that you go, yeah, that makes sense. So that's an easy SEO trick.

I like you come out of the blogging world. I used to write a blog way back when. I think it was 2005, right around that time as well. And so, yeah, I come from that viewpoint on things. And I agree with you.

For me, it's.

I don't like to repeat myself, so I don't like to do things twice. So I would never write first.

However, I would write the title first.

And so I would always write that, what is my title gonna be? Because that's how I think. And I would write the title of it, and then I'd write my five.

Bullet points and two stories.

So I always like, what is the story I'm gonna tell in between here? Right. And that's how we used to structure our episodes. And then we would write the show notes from it because it was already.

Structured to be an article, but that.

Title was always set ahead of time.

That's kind of my strategy is what's the big takeaway I want people to have? And then everything under that should reinforce whatever that main topic is. Ken Davis has a book, the secrets of Effective Communication, if I remember right. And that was his whole thing. And I was like. And his whole thing was, if you talk on stage, you should be able to boil your talk down to a single sentence. Like I spoke once at Podcast Movement. And I boil it down to every podcast can benefit from editing. So whatever. Either it's your whole episode or a segment of an episode, you should be able to boil it down to a sentence and then say, okay, now does everything I say after this reinforce that subject? And it sounds like you kind of do the same thing. So that's a strategy I definitely try to follow.

I love that. Well, let's talk a little bit about. To our do it yourselfers and our self editors. You just mentioned editing here. There's nothing that I hate more than editing because that would require me to listen to my own episode again, which is something I try never to do.

Right.

Unless I just pointed out to you that's why I have a company that does it. Right. Because I didn't want to do it. And so we discovered that over time, what we aren't capable of and what we aren't. But I think there's so Many new tools in this world and the editing.

Side of things and sound leveling and all of those things. What tools are you exploring?

Right now I'm playing with, like, Cap show and castmagic. So all these places you upload and they make a transcription and they spit out 37 different things. So, again, I don't think they're bad tools. I just don't think I'm the target audience. I don't have a problem getting ideas out of my head and into my fingertips. So there's that. I always play with plugins for audio. I do some editing for people. So anything that I can take the horrible audio that sounds like it was recorded in a fishbowl in a bathroom and somehow run it through some sort of process and make it sound amazing, I'm all about that. So occasionally I will play with those. That's probably really the top two. Everything else I've been doing it so long, I use Evernote to. When you get out of the shower and you have that amazing idea, I grab my phone and put it into Evernote. So you always have to have something to catch those. But those are probably the big ones right now. Just AI and audio plugins.

When somebody's starting out, what do you think is essential? Especially in the sound side of it, because you do come from the music background.

What do you think is really essential in creating a good show?

The biggest one that will turn people away is. And it's so popular, it drives me crazy. The blue Yeti microphone looks great. Plugs into the computer directly, but by default it looks like a microphone you should put on your desk. Well, now it's two and a half feet from you. And I always tell people, try to keep your mic around three finger widths away from your mouth. I pointed at the corner of my mouth, so I'm kind of talking across it. That avoids these things called plosives, which are your P's and your B's and things like that. Because when the microphone is so far away from you, and especially if you have more than one person, you have to pretend you're Oprah. Like, you get a microphone, you get a microphone. Everybody gets a microphone. None of this, like, one microphone in the middle of the table thing. That just doesn't deliver great quality. And it doesn't have to be a $500 microphone. There's the Samson Q2U. Right now I'm using Rode PodMic USB.

And I've got the ATR, which is one that was recommended by you way back when. Cause it was really reasonable.

Yeah. And the only reason I Recommend the Samsung Q2U, which I think this has been solved. But for a while, it was hard to get the ATR overseas.

Yeah, they were limited supply.

Yeah. But the other thing, when it comes to sound quality that stops new people is you are going to hate the sound of your voice. There's no way around that. It's a science thing. If you don't believe me, the next time you're talking, just put your. Your hand on your forehead and talk. And you'll feel that your forehead is vibrating. And that means that when you actually hear your voice, you're hearing it through your ears, but you're also hearing it through your skull. The technical term is bone conduction, which I still swear is a great name for a band. And what happens then is when you hear your voice back just through speakers, your skull isn't vibrating anymore. You're just using your ears. And it's not that it sounds bad, it just sounds different. And so when you first start out, you're gonna probably hate your voice. Cause it sounds different. But the other thing is just be sure to have somebody that's not related to you listen to your show. I think when we're talking about growing a show, I think that's the one thing that's missing. And I totally get that. I recently did a kind of a sales video, and I thought I did a good job. I have kind of a sales background, too, but I sent it to my newsletter and I said, hey, what do you guys think of this? I put on an extra layer of skin. All criticism, all praise is welcome. Fifteen updates later, because I think I'd have it great now. What do you think? They're like, why aren't you using your brand colors? I'm like, yeah, why am I not using my brand colors? That's stupid. Back again. So I don't think enough people do that when they first start out. And I totally get it. You just spent 15 hours making your first MP3 file. You just want to get it out there. And I get that. But the first thing you should get it out to is somebody who's gonna go, I love this part of the show, but did you know about halfway through, the cat was meowing or whatever it was and things like that? So find somebody that will tell you the truth. I just had this happen two months ago. A member of the school of podcasting said, dave, you know I love you. And I'm like, oh, this is what's going on. They're like, you have a typo in your title. And I go, no way. And sure enough, there it was.

It happens to all of us.

Yep.

Planned launch, grow and montize. And I'm like, yeah, we're missing an eye there. And I was like, so that's when I say, you need somebody else to listen to your show when you're first starting out or when you're 18 years in. Maybe have them check for typos while you're at it.

Dave pointed out that we still had Stitcher on our website, and we always do an update to our website. So we hold out a bunch of changes, but that's one we should have done earlier because you pointed it out, and you're right, it's gone. It makes our site look outdated.

Well, and you pointed out that my feed doesn't show all my episodes. And I was like, I'll have to look into this.

Yeah, we need experts to help us out.

Right.

That's what I think. People don't do enough is they don't get an expert involved.

They think it's going to cost too.

Much money or they're going to sell.

Them something and they don't get real advice and real help.

And I think that is so necessary. But I also think you said this. Don't ask your family because they love you, and they're going to say, it's great. You need to ask somebody in your target audience as well.

Yeah. Mom will say things like, oh, look at you. You're so professional. Look at the microphone. Oh, my goodness. And I'm like, notice mom isn't talking about the content. She's talking about the microphone and the lights. And then you're like, well, what was your biggest takeaway, Mom? And she's like, oh, what are you, an interviewer now? You know, still not talking about the content. I always say, if you've ever seen the episode of Friends where, like, Joey had a new TV show, and they're all like, okay, I get lighting. I get this. I get. Then they're like, no, I had that last time because nobody wants to tell Joey that's a horrible TV show. And I'm like, that's kind of what's going on with your podcast. So you need truth tellers that are going to go, this was great. I loved it. Did you know that you sound like you're in a fishbowl in a restroom of some sort?

Yeah, absolutely.

And there are tools out there.

That's the great part about it that you can point out for them.

Well, School of podcasting. Let's talk just before we go here.

A little bit about the business.

It's shifted over time. Tell us about what school of podcasting the business is.

Yeah, it started out and it still is. You have courses there that'll take you from the idea through building a website, getting your equipment, getting into all the Apple and Spotify and all that stuff and monetizing again if you want to do that. So there's that. Then we have a community that it just keeps getting better. By the time I think it can't get any better. So it's the fact that we've got professors, we've got people that are psychologists and pharmacists and video producers. So that's, I think, my favorite part. And that's why people stick around. They'll come for the courses, but they stay for the community. And then what I recently did is I used to my big ticket item was if you wanted one on one consulting and it seemed like a big ticket item. And then I started tracking how much time I spent to get somebody to hire me for an hour. And they would hire me for an hour and I would answer their seven questions and they'd be all set and then they would leave and I would never see them again. And I looked at all the time I was spending into that to the point that my big ticket item really wasn't that big of a ticket. And again, my background's in teaching and I'm like, well, wait a minute, I love the coach. I have a group of people who are already giving me money. Why don't I just say, hey, free coaching for everyone who's a member. And somebody said, yeah, you can't do that. It doesn't scale. And I go, you know what? And that's exactly why I'm doing it. I said, I will jump off that bridge when I get to it. And it's working out great. It's the new members sign up. I have one person that we meet every Monday and it's around my schedule. So if I want to like take a break, I can just block off some hey, Dave needs a break time and it's been great. It's a win, win for everyone. Because a, I know sales. I used to teach sales, but it's not my thing. I'm a teacher by trade. So the fact that I get to do more coaching now to people who want coached and if you want coach, come see me. If you don't, then okay. But that's really the bottom line. So it's a great community. It's a great place to learn and grow. And then like we have a whole discussion now going on on ChatGPT because we're all learning it together. So it's a lot of fun.

Well, Dave, thank you so much for all that you contribute to the podcasting world and have been contributing since well before my time. We so appreciate everything you bring to the world.

Oh, thanks for having me. This has been great.

I told you we were going to geek out on the technical side of podcasting. What's changed in the podcasting industry? I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did.

Talking about the idea of coaching and consistency. And that's his number one area that he sees as podcasting as being most valuable too. And I can't agree more. The idea of putting your integrity first is exactly what Dave has done. That's why School of Podcasting has the reputation that it does and that Dave Jackson is such a sought after speaker. It's because his integrity is always first and foremost and his integrity is in teaching and being very useful, not selling out his audience. Right. And when we approach our shows from that heart place, from that place of service, all the other things flow. We get partners, we sell more of our products and services, we sell books, we sell those other things because we've proven our integrity. Not we sell those things first and then that proves our integrity doesn't work the other way. Dave's proof of that. And I love that he has this plan, launch, grow model as well. That's something that really resonates with me. Because when we fail to even think through the planning, and I'm not saying.

You need to agonize over the planning, and I know Dave's not either. Like he does, not about taking super.

Long, but just doing it is not always the answer. Just putting some pre thought into the idea of what am I going to podcast about, what's its purpose and who is that initial audience? And you might be wrong.

I call it a hypothesis podcast. Right? You think this is the audience you might want to get and then you're.

Wrong about it later and you pivot.

That's okay.

But at least you had that in mind as you got started. It gave you a focus, it gave you a plan. So then as you launch, the choices that you make make sense and that makes it easier for you to stick with it. There's such a pod fate epidemic and Dave's proof that it doesn't have to happen to you, that you can really take it on, turn it into a business, turn it into a full, profitable venture and a livelihood, as he calls it in his book. If you really just start with a little bit of planning, not that difficult. And then the other side of it, the advice that he was giving us, technically, start with a good microphone. It doesn't have to be an expensive one, but start with a good microphone.

It's gonna make all the other stuff.

You have to do easier, right? You aren't gonna have to edit as much.

You're not gonna sound like you're in a vacuum.

You're not gonna sound like you're in some echo chamber, right? You're gonna sound great to begin with. You're gonna have less work for yourself and or your editing team if that's what you choose to do. So I love that he gives us that perspective. And every choice that he's making and stories he's telling in advice that he's giving comes from that place of saying, this is where I can be of most service. Because just telling you to do it and getting you all excited about that and then getting you to do one episode, that's not going to be sustainable for you or for the podcasting industry. And he understands that intimately. Well, I hope you're going to go check out Dave's show School of Podcasting, especially if you haven't started your own show yet and if you are thinking at all about editing yourself or doing any of the sides of the things yourself, go and check out school podcasting. You can't get a better course program, better source of information that's deeply rooted in understanding of how things work. That's Dave. He's not a fly by night. I'm not a big proponent, you know that here that I do not love the been there, done it once, and now I've taught the course. That is not Dave. He has been there, done it again.

And again.32 shows he's launched on his own, and some of them were failures.

You learn just as much from those as you do from the successes. And he's done 897 episodes teaching people how to podcast and launch and grow their shows. And because of that, he's earned his title as an expert in podcasting. So go check out School of Podcasting, Dave Jackson, and come back and join us for some more episodes with great podcasters in the industry who are teaching. Gonna teach you some ways to grow your show, give you an idea for something that is gonna be just what you need to take your show and get it off the ground. Or get it moving up to that monetization level you're so anxious to get to. Thanks everyone for listening. I'm Tracy Hazard, and I'll be back next time with another bingeable podcaster.

You've been listening to. The Binge Factor Podcast. For more information on podcasting and videocasting success tips and tactics, please go to thebingefactor.com and be sure to listen to our other show for podcasters called Feed you'd brand. If you'd like to be interviewed on this show as well as featured in Tracy's column, please go to thebingefactor.com guest and apply.