Why Accepting Your Podcast As A Live Experiment Is Success Making Advice From Melanie Parish Host Of The Experimental Leader Podcast

Wish you were one of those influencers with raving fans who binge on your every word, consume all your content, buy everything you have to sell, and demand even more. Then stay tuned while Authority Magazine columnist and buzzfeed contributor Tracy Hazzard shares strategies, tips and tactics from top videocasters, podcasters, authors and social influencers on creating that bingeable factor. Now let's join Tracy as she explores how to rise above all the digital noise with the Binge Factor.

Hey everyone. Welcome to the Binge Factor. I'm Tracy Hazzard and today I have a client who has come on board to do a Binge Factor hot seed and she's going to do a combo. We're going to do a hybrid today. We're going to do both a little bit of on air coaching and tip giving from my end to her as well as of course get her binge factor and get her tips for you. She is the Experimental Leader. That is her show name and it is her book and I have Melanie Parrish for you today. She's an author, a public speaker, a founder of the Experimental Leader Academy and master certified coach. She's an expert in problem solving, constraints management, operations, strategic hiring and brand development. Melanie has consulted and coached organizations ranging from Fortune 50 company to IT startups. Her individual clients include those in FAANG, F A N G and other top global IT companies. As an author, educator and creator of the Experimental Leader book, Melanie shows people new ways of thinking about their leadership, informed by her understanding of the fast paced ride of technology innovation. She's based in Ontario and in New Mexico. So I am excited about talking Experimental Leader because I love to think about podcasting as an experiment, as something that is a work in progress. I like to call things a design of experiment. That's a term that I learned in product development and when Tom and I were always working in that where we learned that when you create something, create a product, in this case create a podcast, that you can't leave it as its own entity without making improvements over time. Because no matter how hard you work at designing it perfectly and really making sure that everything's right by the time you come to market, things shift. By the time you get feedback from consumers or from listeners, in this particular case, things shift in your thinking. So you have to think of it as always a work in progress. But I'm a big fan of the design of Experiment model, right? So the DOE model is that you would change one thing at a time because if you change everything, if you flip it all at once, then what happens is you don't know what worked and what didn't. So I'm a fan of looking at your show as an experiment all along the way and making a tweak, making a shift, making a pivot, like keep moving it on the path to creating those things and of course, testing things, experimenting with them along the way. So we did our on air coaching testing. I did six episodes earlier in the year, got a lot of great feedback from them. But my feedback from my team and from everything that we were doing internally was that there is a better opportunity for us to do more of these hybrid interviews where we are going to do some coaching and we are going to do success tips as well. So we are doing that today with Melanie Parrish. So I am so excited that the Experimental leader, the queen of experimentation, is right here to do this first hybrid test with us. So let's welcome Melanie Parish of the Experimental Leader podcast. Melanie, thanks so much for joining me. I am excited to talk experimentation in our podcasting today because you are the experimental leader. What made you start a podcast though? What made you take on this experiment?

Yeah, well, I'm so excited to be here with you, Tracy. And, well, I, like most experimenters, had a problem and I had to solve that problem. So I had a book, my book, the Experimental leader came out April 7th and my big marketing strategy was I was approved to be in Hudson News and airports. And it was the middle, you know, it was a month.

Start of the pandemic.

Yeah, part of the pandemic. And my strategy went out the window. And so one of my long term goals was to sort of elevate myself as a speaker also sort of out in the pandemic. And then like my really long term goal was to launch courses and start to do some really cool online content. And I realized that kind of all roads lead to Rome. And I thought a podcast was a really great way to start to just share thoughts and talk about things in a more deep way and not a marketing way. I'm kind of shy. I have to get people to help me with my social because I couldn't put things out every day, I would be horrified if I had to do it myself. So I thought a podcast was a really good way to have deep conversations. And I think I always like, because questions are the heart of coaching, I always thought I might have really good questions.

And so you do, by the way, you do have really good questions. So, yeah, so that's, I think, a really great approach. And I hear this from a lot of authors who are struggling. They didn't really have the platform they thought they had. So you may have found it, you needed it anyway, whether there was a pandemic or not. So it probably worked out perfect for you either way, being forced to do it. So your audience is all those people leading teams with a kind of tech edge to it, which I really love because you work with a lot of developers, software companies, you know, tech edge type companies. I think that's really, really fun. And the experiment message, I think, really, really lends itself to that. Did you really agonize over coming up with the title, the name for your show?

No, it was like, you know, when people, like, talk about the call to ministry or something, the title.

Well, because it's also the title of your book, right?

It's the title of the book. And so I knew the entire time I was writing the book that I was writing the book, the Experimental Leader. Like, that was the book I was writing from the beginning. And, you know, at some point in the publishing, they were like, well, we have to talk about title. And I was like, well, I don't know what else you would call this book. I know exactly what this fits it.

But it is so interesting. It's actually the title of the podcast. You know, I had a friend who was like, well, you don't want everything to be under the same brand. And.

Which is true. But in this case, you know, there's so many podcasts that are targeted to leaders, right? So coaching for leaders, executive information for leaders, tapping into the success factors of leaders. Right. There's so many podcasts around that, but that experimental portion of it just adds an edge, and that has really put you in a separate place. And I think that that's really good that you kept it.

I think so, too. And now I can't even imagine having named it something else. And it is really interesting to just sort of look at the world through that lens. And I also had this big realization recently that I wrote the book for pretty experienced leaders, and that often people sort of enter my business as less experienced leaders. Like, sort of. They're in the most pain, like, zero to three years into their leadership. And so I've actually started to figure out products that fill that gap. And that's been interesting, too, to sort of realize that, you know, that that book that I wrote, the podcast, all of that is targeted toward. I wanted smart people who are good leaders to read it and get something. But I've realized there's this earlier gap.

So I'm earlier gap. Well, you know what, that's so true that a lot of times we put something out there like a book or a podcast, and we intend to have a certain audience and it comes out and turns out we just don't. You know, when Tom and I started our 3D print podcast and I tell this story a lot, we WTFF was geared towards someone who already was in the know. I mean, you wouldn't know that FFF stands for fused filament Fabrication. You know, you wouldn't choose our show if you didn't already know that. But what we found was there was so many people like just thinking, I'd like to try this 3D printing thing. Picking up our show, we ended up with this really early on audience, and they ended up age demographic all over the place, which we didn't expect either. We thought they'd be, you know, young kids, you know, starting college, that kind of thing, or in the garage at 14, but it wasn't. They were like retirees. So, you know, same thing is like, we sometimes find out really surprising ways what our audience is. So how did you realize that that was your audience?

Well, I think the leaders in tech, like, there's a little bit of chicken and egg. So it's both the clients I already serve, but it's also the clients I love to serve. I also think that they have. I just keep having these sort of interesting sort of ahas or realizations around that client. You know, I had this realization recently. I have a client who's in accounting who runs accounting in a global organization.

And this client got an MBA in accounting or finance or something, and then did that job for a couple of years and then got promoted to leadership, but never did a leadership degree. And so there's. It's.

So they're thrown into it, which is why they're searching for something. And your show, your book, those are good matches because you're setting out there. This is what, when we're titling a show, I like it to be an embodiment of what the audience is aspiring to. So, yeah, I want to be a good leader. Everybody wants to be a successful leader. But an experimental leader might fit my personality just right, especially if I'm a creative or especially if I have that sort of developmental edge to what I do. Surprisingly, an accountant would choose that. But I can't think of experimental accounting being the ideal thing. But you never know.

Well, and everyone's an experimenter when it's not going right, we have to try Things to try to get a different outcome. This year has been like the Olympics for global experimental leader. You know, implementation.

There's. In one of the episodes that I was listening to as I was listening through your show that I got, you said someone asked you in, like, April, so, you know, a month after the pandemic started, asked you to give them best practices on. On being a leader in the pandemic, and you were like.

That seems, like, not possible. Would you like what we're experimenting with now? Like. And that made more sense to me.

Like, yeah, yeah, absolutely. We don't have. And there's so many places we don't have best practices. I'm in Canada because I'm a dual citizen. I'm watching, like, how the US Is opening up, how Canada is opening up right now, and nobody knows what to do. And so people are trying things and people are doing all their bad behaviors, their reactive behaviors, like blaming and that guy's doing it wrong and judging and hindsight's 20 20. They shouldn't have done that.

Yeah, you're watching this global scale of what it's like to be a part of an organization, because we are a world organization right now, and we're all.

A system right now. It's never been clearer how interrelated we.

All are, and someone's experiment might be infecting us literally. So. Ye.

That's right.

I think of a podcast as an experiment because it doesn't always. There's so many variables along the way that we need to tweak, adjust. And if we don't look at it as a design of experiment, which is how I pretty much look at everything in the world anyway, because I'm a designer first and foremost. But if we don't look at it like that, then we aren't making continual improvements in our show. We just. We go out there, we set it out, we gotta give it enough time right before we start making tweaks to it. But if we look at it as a fluid thing, as an experiment, then I think we're going to be more successful. Have you been. It seems that you have, from listening to the show, that you've made tweaks and experiments over the 40 episodes that you have so far.

I have.

What purposeful changes have you made?

Well, some of them are just like those dumb, annoying things that you say. Like, I realized I said interesting a.

Lot, and so I did awesome a lot in the beginning. So, yeah, interesting is actually better than that.

And sometimes it's like you're just kind of deer in the headlights. You know, you need to respond, but you're actually trying to think of the next question. And as you're just kind of getting your feet, you know, just these words come out of your mouth. So just experimenting with. And I still think of this in my head. I was thinking about it this morning, like, oh, what are synonyms for interesting? I should stick those on a sticky on my computer. So there was that, and then an early piece of feedback that I got, and I love feedback, was that I should talk more.

Okay. So I'm so glad you said that right now, because that's the first thing I thought when I started listening, because I. When I cut. When I check out a show, my process is to go to your first episode, listen to one in the first 10, and then come to your more recent. And I will scan through it and see if. Let's say all your shows were interviews, which they were, except you had one standout that wasn't. So I also picked that one to listen to. And so that was the first thing. Like, I made a note on my pad. Oh, I wish she had more of her in this. That first episode is missing that. Right.

There's.

Just jump right in. We don't know anything about Melanie Parrish, so. And that's a miss. But we do get it later. And so you really. I saw that improvement over the time in your most recent.

Thank you. I feel like my heart's, like, pounding. I'm so happy.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I realized kind of in December, one of the things. So two more things that I. Big experiments or changes. One was I realized I'm a leader, and when I just interview people, and I really love the interview format, but I realized I need a voice. I need my leader voice. And so I added a little blurb just at the beginning where I started talking. I don't know how many of those episodes have aired, so it would have been in one of the latest ones.

Only I did hear that. So you're talking about. And this is one of the wonderful things. So listeners out there, you're going to want to check out the Experimental Leader podcast and really listen to a couple of things that Melanie does both in her open and her closed. So in your setup, and that's what you're talking about, this sort of opening that you do, past the music, past the formal opening, but you start to set up the guests that you're having, and that's you. It's about your thoughts, about your setting up that conversation that you're Having. Are you recording that after?

Yes.

And it's obvious because there's an energy of what was talked about and a knowledge of it that's coming through there, which helps us as listeners feel that we must listen. That's the message that we get when it's done, when it's done before. And you don't know what's going to be said. You actually have a hesitancy in your voice. This is just natural for most people. You'll have a hesitancy in your voice that is like, I hope it's going to be good. And you don't know, but after you've done it, you know it was good. So you have a different energy about it. So that's why I love that you record that after. And, you know, that makes a lot of sense for you. Now you're closed. You have a really strong close. And I love that you have an ending phrase that is activating. So you tell everybody to go experiment. That's your ending. I do, and I love that. And so that strong close is so important.

Thank you. Yeah, I like that. Also, I always find, you know, like, because I'm a little shy, I notice even when I'm like recording course videos and things like that I have to tell the person that does my video editing to just like, let me say goodbye one time, but don't say three. So the gives me a way to.

Finish because sometimes the speaker messes you up because you go back and forth and it's just odd.

Yeah, it's just like, I don't know. And then the other thing that we started experimenting with or playing with is we take either the thing at the beginning or the thing at the end, and we use that as our intro on Social. And then I don't have to pay anybody to create that content and I don't have to have a hired writer to do that because it's already transcribed and it's already there. So that's been a really good thing that we did as we've gone. And I think they're pretty engaging because it's fresh content.

It is, it is. That's wonderful that you're finding a reuse for all of those things. So, you know, I think your experimentation is great. So what's next? What are you going to try next?

Oh, wait, I have to tell you, the last one.

Oh, yeah, There was one more.

Yes, I have one more. So I decided that I don't, because I'm talking about leadership. There's a lot of old white men who want to talk about leadership. And I get pitched all the time. And I've decided I don't have a hard rule against talking to old white men about leadership, but I've decided that if they're going to be on my podcast, then they're going to have to talk about women in leadership, and they're going to have to talk about race and leadership.

So they have to have a diversity conversation. They do.

It's part of what I want to offer. It's the value I offer, because I've started doing that. I've had these really cool conversations. I also have noticed that there's not so many white people talking about race and leadership. And so I feel like it's this really important conversation for white people. I heard the phrase, this week, white people work.

We have to do some work here.

Yeah, we have to do some white people work. And I love that. And it feels so important. And it made my whole podcast. I felt like I was just fluffing people up, and I wanted to ask more of them. And so now I feel like I'm asking more, and I like it better.

Yeah, a little more provocative. I like that, too. Yeah, really, really pushing it. Well. And I think. I think if you're going to have guests, and I'm going to tap into our five things that I go over with everyone, because the first one is how to get great guests. So if you're going to have great guests on, you got to make sure they're really willing to be open and talk about that. So how have you been vetting these guests? Or how have you been letting them know that this has got to be a part of the conversation? How are you doing that in the process?

Yeah, we're having really honest, upfront conversations with our guests. My assistant Molly, you know, huge shout out to Molly because she helps vet all of our guests and helps find some of them. I also realized I have a real opportunity to think up, show ideas, and invite the people that I want to talk about specific things.

I like that. So you're talking about getting guests to further a conversation.

Yeah, so I have. My daughter's a chef, and, you know, in the pandemic, it's just been horrible. And she works in a restaurant group, and early on in the restaurant group, the only thing I could think of, you know, was they were doing food for their. All their employees when they all got furloughed. And I went to pick up food for my daughter, and I left two copies of my book, one for the CEO and One for their executive chef. And I had no idea if they'd read them or not, but they looked like they were experimenting really well. Yes. So I had my daughter sort of reach out and say, hey, do you want to be on my mom's podcast? And they came on. So that's airing next month. I love that.

That's a great way to find someone. And that's what I did find about your guest list. Your guest list is not people that I've heard of or been on 100 different podcasts before. They're all extremely articulate, though, and they should be on a lot of podcasts. So you found some really hidden gems, and I think so. I think this approach is working for you, Melody.

Thank you. I love my guests. I had Farmer Alvaro on, and, oh, my gosh, I loved him. It was early pandemic, and his phone wouldn't stop ringing because everybody wanted him to deliver organic vegetables. And he literally. They had a wait list and fun. But he was talking about supply chains and the pandemic and his.

This is something so many people don't know about. I know. I.

Yes, it was fantastic.

Yeah. Oh, interesting. So much fun. So how do you get great listeners? How do you increase your listenership?

I mean, this one is, you know, just pure strategy. We look for people who have followings. And I can't always interview Farmer Alvaro because he's probably not going to help me grow my podcast brand.

Although you'd be shocked. Right. But occasionally you'll be surprised.

A podcast, right? Like, I know.

Yeah, you'd be surprised. Maybe all the delivery people on his router. I'll do that. Who knows?

So it really is about making an intention around that. Making sure they're getting automated reminders to put their stuff out on social, making sure they have really great graphics, which we get from our podcast company, which is Potted Ties. Right.

I've already mentioned that you're a client, so don't worry about that. Yeah, no, but I appreciate that. I think the graphics are good for you because it helps with your brand. So, you know, when you have a.

It's so easy.

You have visuals, too. Yeah.

Yes. It's so easy. We promote everything on our social media. We also repost our episodes. We try to be in some kind of regular cadence with reposting episodes because it seems like a lot of content to create and then just put out one time.

Oh, I'm so glad you're doing that. That's really good. Well, you know, this is interesting. I was talking with and Interviewing so that her episode will air before the end of March. Whitney Lauritson, who is our social media strategist here at Pottitize, and she has a podcast called this Might Get Uncomfortable. And one of the findings she had, and she's great at social media. So she, I mean, because she started out as an Instagram influencer, and obviously I hired her to do social media for us. So, you know, there's a track record here. She said that she was really surprised. One of the most surprising finds she had when reviewing her guest lists and all the stuff that had happened over 200 episodes, because she just hit 200 episodes, actually today as we record it, she hits 200. And that the guests she thought were the biggest influencers, had the biggest following, did the worst with sharing. And so she found that the ones kind of in a sort of sweet spot of like they've got enough to obviously show that they're putting effort into it, but not so much that they can, you know, just kind of like let it go and do whatever that those people worked harder to share her show. And she got more from them. And she got more from them because they were growing their social media following. So utilizing publicity had to be a part of their strategy to do that. And so that's where she found this kind of sweet spot in there of that. And so she doesn't have numbers to say, like, you know, that's 10,000 Instagram followers or something like that, because it's so different in everybody's industry. But I thought that's really interesting find. And if you analyze maybe some of your best guests and then take a look at them and say, we want more of like that, then maybe you'll be able to improve that going forward.

Well, and the other thing that we're doing, and I have no idea if it'll work, it's an experiment. We're coming up on our year anniversary and we're trying to meet like a, you know, stretch goal for ourselves about downloads. And so we just went back to everybody who was on the show for the year and asked them to repost their episode. Nice just to see, but also I got a shout out on social media today, which was, hey, congratulations to Melanie and her anniversary of her podcast, which was a cool way for them to repost the episode, but it's also really good for me.

So the next thing we do is produce like a pro. That's. How do you produce like a pro? And I know you're using us as production, so we don't want to talk about that. That's not the point. On your end, what are you and your team doing to make this a better production for yourself? Are you researching? Are you prepping for interviews? What are you doing on your end?

Probably not enough. So my goal for myself is that I produce content in my whole. This is across the board in my organization. I help people do their work, but I produce content. That's my job. I'm the only person who can produce content in my company, so my goal is that I do that. So the quality of the production, the fact that I put makeup on and have a glass of water next to me and all that, that's my job from a production point of view. Molly heads up podcasting in our organization. She makes sure everything gets loaded, makes sure. One of the big ahas this year is we all need to listen to our episodes. It sounds crazy, but we just need to be listening. We need to be consuming our own content so that we can experience it and understand it more deeply.

That's a great aha, I think right there, Melanie, because so often we don't listen to our episodes. Well, I produce so much content that it gets harder and harder for me to do that, but my team really is. And sometimes they'll pull out quotes and I'm like, I said that. Wow. That was actually really. I'm impressed I said that. Like, you know, so sometimes we aren't realizing, you know, the quality of what we're putting out there and the ways at which we could reuse that if we aren't re listening to it.

I know it's hard to do it in the moment.

Right? Yeah.

I have a social media person who's going through old podcasts I was a guest on, and she comes up with the darndest things that I said. Right, Exactly. Oh, I'm so glad in my book.

I'm so glad that you have that now as a process, because that is really going to, I think, make a difference. Because why should we be recreating new content? You're busy. You are the content machine in the business, but you don't need to be creating it if you already have it.

That's right. That's right. So production, I think that's all sort of around the production. Some of it is like, we need to trust our partner, like potatoes. We need to trust them to do the work well and not to second guess.

That works hard. Thank you for that. Because that is a really hard thing, is like, you know, sometimes we make mistakes. Everybody makes mistakes. Right. But we can't be you. We can't read your mind. And so if there's not a feedback loop, then we can't get better at what we do and we can't learn more from you. And so when you're creating that and being open to the idea that you are a part of, we're partners in this. That's really great. So I'm so glad you said that. And I hope that other people do that with whoever their producers are, whoever they're using for editing, because that can be a real success factor long term.

Well, and I really try to put my time into the things that the 80% like or the 20%. I think it's the 20.

20%. The produce. 80. Yep, got it.

But I don't fret about the titles of my episodes. I'll give feedback broadly. Like, I kept asking people about Imposter Syndrome, and all of a sudden all my episodes were titled Imposter Syndrome. And I was like, wait, no, more episodes titled Imposter Syndrome. But, like, so there's sort of broad strokes, that learning piece. But I do think leaning in, I really appreciate the ability to lean in.

Hmm, nice. Yeah, that's great. So encourage engagement. So you've been pushing the stuff out on Social. You've got kind of a plan going. How are you getting engagement with the community? How are you getting them to, like, give you feedback?

I don't know that I get good feedback.

So this is something to work on.

Yeah.

Great.

I have no idea. I'd love for you to help me figure out how to get more feedback. I felt like in the beginning it was just super important to just produce, you know, half a year. Like, I really had a goal of just kind of like, see if I could do it regularly for a year without fretting or with a light lift. And so now I'm like, okay, now what's the return? How do we start? You know, how, and I don't know how to get feedback. Maybe you have some great ideas for feedback.

Great. Well, here's a chance for us to do some on air coaching right now. Right. So I think that there is an opportunity for you to ask a pointed question. So when we just ask for feedback and we ask our listenership to just say, hey, send me a message if you've got something to say. It's too broad. But if we ask them specifically, what experiment have you done in your business in the last 30 days that is a result of COVID Now we're asking a really specific Question and give them a very specific place to respond to you. So message me back on Instagram, send me a Facebook message, comment on this post somewhere, you know, on my website, whatever that is, just be really specific about it. You can try some different places because there may be places where you're going to get more feedback than others and you don't realize that yet. So try a place for a couple of times, and then if Instagram is not working, shift over to Facebook and see if Facebook works, you know, and so shift that up for yourself as an experiment to make sure that you're getting to the right place where your listeners really want to respond or the majority of them do.

Well, I think that's what happens. And I just switched to a WordPress site so I could do the Speak Pipe app.

Oh, you can do that there too. You tell them to leave you a message.

And I feel like I haven't, I'm not doing anything. I haven't announced it. It's just kind of sitting there and I'm like, now what do I do? So that's actually a great place to, to send everybody to.

So my recommendation is to have Speak Pipe and a place to drop a message to you, like a written message. Some people are still uncomfortable speaking, and so having them both side by side has worked better for some people. And so if you have like your email list or, you know, your email pop up so it just pops up and they can write you an email right there into your site. So have the two. Two buttons side by side. But that's a great place. So send them right there. Cause sending them back to your site is a way better way. They can see your books, they can see all your other content. So I prefer it to be at your website, but for some people, their social just has bigger following, bigger community. And then follow up with the. Whatever you send in that episode, make sure you're posting that out as the question of the week in your social community as well. So you're encouraging that. And I suspect you probably are more heavy on LinkedIn. And so asking a question in LinkedIn is a really great way to get people to respond. People want to engage there and they want to have their say, especially if you're asking for their viewpoint or their opinion, especially when it's at this sort of high level of a question.

So, yeah, so try that. Maybe you can encourage some engagement and come back and tell us how it worked. Okay, sounds really good. So the last one we go over in our five things is monetizing your show. Did you intend to monetize it from the beginning? Are you looking at ways to monetize it now? What are your thought process on it?

So there's like the, gosh, would it be interesting to monetize it? I started running ads for my book. It's a 495 digital book funnel. And I started running those ads fairly recently.

So I sort of feel like sending people to my stuff might be the most valuable use of my podcast. But I'd love feedback on that or love thoughts on that. Like, you know, I'm a business, so monetizing is sexy. Like, that's what I do. I'm a business coach, like business executive coach. So it's all about, you know, my father once said that farms are like money in the fields. And I was like, oh, that's cool. That's landscapes of money. Like, I love that because of, you know, I love that thought.

So I mean, the reality is, is you don't really want an outside monetization because it muddies everything for you. You want it to be some kind of inside monetization, whether it's sending people to a coaching program, do a webinar, bootcamp, whatever those things might be, where people can get to know you better and get a hint of one on one. You know, this is one of the things that we do here, and you may want to look at that, is that literally having a sort of pipeline of people where you'd say, hey, let's do an on air coaching and we'll do an on air coaching experiment. So one of my favorite podcasters, so I interviewed early on in the series for the Binge Factor, is the host of the Charisma Quotient, Kimmy Seltzer. Kim Seltzer. And she does that. She has her interview sessions. She has her solo sessions that she does, which you're accomplishing by putting a really good setup on yours. And then she does a on air coaching, and she says that people apply to it because it's free and they don't think they can afford a session with her, and then they end up becoming clients by the time they're done with it. And so it is a really nice pipeline to be able to do that. And so thinking about maybe adding a component of on air coaching, you could try it once a month and then add it if it works.

That's what I was sort of thinking. That is, that might be really fun to see if somebody wanted, like, I'm sure there's people that would be think that was fun to.

Yeah. So combination of publicity for their company and for themselves. Right. Because you need to elevate yourself as a leader. And then at the same time they're getting continual learning opportunity.

So it's funny, I'm like a master certified coach and even I like, I can feel a little like, oh my gosh, that's scary to do it on air.

It's scary to do it on air, right?

Yeah, but that's sort of thrilling too, right? Like, well.

And that's why when I do these interviews, I always ask at the beginning, are you open to the coaching idea? Because some people just really aren't. And I have had people said, no, I don't want it. And I was like, okay, don't worry about it. We can talk about it after if you're interested in that. You know, if you're interested in really knowing. But I'll be kind because, you know, that's. I want to honor how they feel about it and sometimes being public about it's just not the right way. But I think you being experimental, I was so glad you said, oh, yes, of course. I'm open to having. Having it.

So.

So we usually go over what is your binge factor? Did you know that people were binging on your episodes? Have you had a sense of that? Has anyone reached out and said, I listened to all 40 of your episodes and now I have a question?

No.

So you have no idea that people are binging on your show?

No, I have no idea if people are listening to my, you know, I don't even. And it's the same with selling my book. I feel like feedback loops are just astonishingly non existent.

So do you have a Kindle version of your book?

Yep.

Did you check out and see if people are highlighting it?

No.

Okay, so you can go in on the back end. I don't. I'm not an author like that.

I'll figure it out.

Yeah, you can figure it out. Somebody and you go in on the back end and you can look and see where people are highlighting. That's a feedback loop and it's great for your social media team. You get a lot of people highlighting those. You should be pushing him out on social as the promotion for the book. And so. But that's a feedback loop. So. Yeah. So Shane Snow, a great author and I'm a huge fan of his books. And so he came on the show here and told me that he was at being a writer, was so lonely until Kindle came along and he was able to look at these highlights.

So crazy. My book launched in April. In December I got quite a sizable check or well that's good. So somebody read my book this year.

Or that was like from downmarket it. See that's the problem is that they download it but they haven't necessarily read it yet. So the highlights are signal that they were reading it.

Yeah, well, and I do hear that like, and I know that everybody, you know, people stop on chapter four. Like I know all these things from some conversation. But yeah, the feedback loops. I think the Kindle thing is super cool.

I wish we had that for podcasts. Like, I have to say I've heard some people have been working on them and we're keeping an eye on those players, but none of them work really well at this point. But that idea of that feedback loop. So what we do find is that somewhere at some point you'll be able to see the indicators in your statistics on bingeability. And what happens is that when you see a spike, usually over. I'm going to say it's usually happens over a weekend. But things have been upended in the pandemic because people have more time on their hands. But usually you'll see all of a sudden you get a bunch of listens across all your episodes in sort of a period of a week. And so you can see that, oh, that's gotta be a binge listener coming through and doing all our shows. So they went from one and they listened through the whole catalog. And so you'll usually see that happen in that format. And so when we see a lot of listens on our back episode and it's not just one single episode, that's the indicator that you do have binge listeners. So here's the thing, Melanie, I think you have all the potential to have a binge able show. I think that your shift in the recent days to adding more of you is actually going to make that the case now so that you didn't have that before. There really wasn't enough of you in it to create that sort of. I want to hear this information, but I might pick and choose which shows I listen to based on what guest. Sounds interesting because I'm not tied to the host yet. So by tying us more to you, you create that binge factor because you.

Are obvious, really deep knowledge of experimentation, of leadership in general. And I want to hear more of your viewpoint on that and why you brought someone forward. That is your binge factor right there. And keeping that experimental edge to it is important.

Yeah, I really like that. And I really see the purpose of it. They're uncomfortable shoes still for me.

Well, and so here's one of my coaching tips for you. So you have injected more of you. You'll tell a little story and all of those nice little back and forth that you're doing with the guests now. And you're not just waiting, asking a question. Waiting, asking a question. But you're also sometimes forgetting to formulate and segue from your story to the next question. So making sure that you formulate that as a question. So one of the things that I do is rather than prepare questions ahead of time, which I absolutely hate it when people do that, because you can tell is I make a handful of bullet points. Like you can see right here. I've got my bullet points for you. Right. These are my notes to myself to make sure I ask you these things at some point in it. And so because I have. As I'm telling a story, I look over and I'm like, oh, I can formulate that as my next question. And so because it's not framed as a question, it makes it really easy for me to pick it up and insert it in so that I'm sure that I get through all of that.

Cool. I like the idea of bullet points because I haven't wanted to have pat.

Questions or prepped questions, and I don't want you to. It doesn't work out well.

So, yeah, that's really affirming and really helpful. But to think of, like. Cause sometimes I forget what was on their little notes that they sent me or I feel like sometimes I wander a little, you know, So I think that's. I like the bullet points. That's fantastic.

So you also have this one episode. It's an interview that was done of you or a talk you gave about your book.

Yeah, it was my launch.

It was your launch. Yeah. And it's right in the middle there. And I love that you have that in there. And I almost want that to be at the beginning.

Oh, like the first episode.

Yeah, like make it zero. Zero. Yes, absolutely.

Redate it.

You just give it a new date. But you might want to give it a. And you can insert it like an ad. It doesn't have to be put in, like re edited or anything like that. You can just insert it, but give it a framework so that you're giving your. Just as you would set up a whole episode, you do that setup here for why you're sharing this with everyone. Oh, I think this gives you the best Insight into what an experimental leader is. It's also my talk about when I launched the book. So you're getting like the why and the basis for what that is. And I thought this would be a really great intro to not only the show and my book, but to the process of what we're going to be talking about here on the experimental leader podcast. And then you play it and then.

Right. Because people often start with the first episode.

They do and then they're getting and you dive in.

Those episodes that I were like, me at my, like, I had no idea what I was doing.

Right. And I'm a big fan of just doing what we call the 00 episode. Yes. It changes all your numbers. Keep that in mind. But it helps in sort of capturing that new binge listener who's looking for a show. When binge listeners come into your show, they come in, they listen to your first episode, your last episode, or they skim them and then maybe check out something in between where they see a really interesting guest or an interesting topic. And that's how they check other show. It's usually three episodes. They'll give it before they go, no, I'm not subscribing or not, not sticking around or yes, this is the show for me. And then they'll go back and they'll listen to the whole catalog.

So cool. Well, I love that idea because it isn't exactly where it should be in the whole.

Well, you know, it's nice to find it. And because of its title, it does stand out. Like, oh, this is what the show's about. But it's right in the middle of everything. So it just is not your first place you look.

I have a question for you. Yeah, I know sometimes people do just single topic things where they talk about something without a guest. Should I think about something like that or just am I handling that in the intro and the outro?

Look, I love them. I think they're really great. I think they invite more engagement from an audience that is starts to realize that you really have a coaching business and a program that can be offered to them. And it's hitting on topics that can be really useful. Do you want to have it be. It's a lot more work. Right. You're adding more episodes per week because you still need those guest ones to help you share out, get your listenership growing. Right? That's right. So you have to have a balance of both. So we don't want to just switch two of our episodes a month to our topic and then two of interviews and not get, you know, we lose our value, right? We diminish the value, so we have to add on. So what's comfortable for you? Is it to do a bonus episode? Treat it like a bonus rather than a regular feature so it doesn't start to feel too encumbering, too time consuming yet until you're sure it's working. So add one or two bonus episodes a month and maybe jot out for yourself that, you know, I'm going to do 10 total because I have 10 topics I'd like to cover that I think are essential to being a good experimental leader. They might tie into some things in your book and keep them short, do not do long ones.

How long?

I'd say do 15 minutes, that kind of thing, and test them out, see how they're working for you. They're going to give you great social media content, great quotes and great other things. So at minimum, you've really built up a whole repertoire of all of this material that your team can use again and again and again in all these other places.

Well, and I'm doing Facebook lives every week and they're like five minutes and we're repurposing those videos. So maybe that handle.

Maybe start with one of those. Start with using some of those and put those as your podcast initially. So just try it. A five minute one's not bad. You can self publish them in our platform so you don't need to go through us and do all the fancy editing. You can add your intro outro on them and everything. And so that's a simple way for you to go about and just test that out. And if it's working really well, then you can always try something a little bit longer form, see if a 15 minute one does well and just try it. It's always an experiment here, Melanie. Right.

Well, I know. I mean, it's so interesting to sort of like enter this world. This morning I said, oh, I. My husband said, what'd you do while you were waiting for the kids? Swimming for an hour and a half at five o' clock in the morning.

Oh my goodness.

And I was like, well, I consumed some content.

I listened to some things for a change. Right.

I did some podcasts, I did some audiobooks, did some social media. Like I consume some content this morning. He said, oh, is that what we call it now?

Yes, that's right. Yes, that's right. We're consuming.

I love that content.

I know, that is so funny. Well, I asked this kind of early on and then we jumped over it. But what's next for you? You're hitting your year. What's next for you? What do you want to accomplish in this next year? You did it consistently and constantly for one year. What's up for you in this next year?

I want to be funnier.

I love that. That's a great goal, Melanie.

And I want to swear more.

Break that ladylike. Yeah.

Because, you know, I know that, like, when I work with tech teams, I know if I'm in a room full of men, I always, you know, I want to say it in the first 10 minutes. And I think there's a way that, you know, that could add to my podcast if I just play a little harder.

Well, you know, and your audience is older, so they're not necessarily. It's not a mompreneur podcast, so there's not going to be kids in the room or, you know, in the car. Right. So perfectly fine. If that's who your audience is and that's what's going to resonate with them and that's where they are, then do it right. Be who you really are. Be who they want, you know, they want to hear.

Yeah. Somehow in the, you know, like, trying to learn how to be on camera and on video, I might be playing, like, a little too careful. And it's like, I want to belly laugh with people. I want to swear and talk about things we shouldn't talk about.

So this happens. This happens, right? This happens naturally, occasionally. But to really give yourself permission to do that is another thing. Right. So last week's coaching call for potatoes. I don't know if you heard it, but our dog went wild right in the middle of our talk because she saw a squirrel outside the glass doors. And so you hear her, she jumps up and she's scratching the door. And I literally got freaked out. Like, I went and I just started laughing because it was so funny that it happened right in the middle of everything. And she caught me so off guard. And I got a lot of comments from it. It's like, Tracy, you laugh and you're personable, but that was hilarious. And so when it breaks through like that, you'll know, like, okay, I'm free enough. This audience knows me. I can be one myself. And that's my coaching. Those are all my clients. So, like, they know me really well. So. And they know our dog. Right?

Yeah. I don't want to become. Because I'm on screen, and I don't want to become a boring, middle aged, like, you know, careful person you know, with my clients, I talk about everything, and there's a way that I want to invite that in and just be more of that.

So before we go, Melanie, I want. You're the queen of experimenting here. So let's talk about. And what advice do you have for someone who is thinking about starting this podcast experiment but is sort of afraid to dive in and get going?

I mean, I feel like I'm not going to sound smart at all except hire potatoes. I've referred so many clients to Poditize, I'm almost. It's almost embarrassing. Like, you know, appreciate that. It's like people say they want a podcast. I'm like, just pay them. They're good.

Let them do it. So what you're really saying, though, is get someone in your corner, hire somebody.

Don't try to do it all. Like, let yourself enjoy the journey and take as much off your plate. Be a content producer, that you're only doing the part that you have to do so that you can be good at that part. I'm on a whole bunch of groups, online podcast groups, and the amount of people who are struggling with tech and sound like their souls are ripped out, it's like they all sound like that. And I don't have that experience. So seek advice, talk to people. People can reach out to me. I'll have a quick chat about your podcast, have joy in your heart and go get lots of input and then hire people to help you do the hard parts. You can always pick them up, back up later if you think, wow, I just don't have enough work while I'm doing this. You can pick up the work later, but don't try to do it all out of the gate. It's too much to learn.

It really is. I'm so glad you said that. I think that that's the case for so many people is they're getting hung up on one aspect. For some people, it's the tech. For other people, it might be confidence in their voice. You don't know what that is. But getting past that and maybe just starting to look like Melanie did that, this is an experiment, and it's not something that you just set in stone here that is like accepting even that. Melanie, I think, was a brilliant start for you.

Well, and I think also be really clear on Seth Godin always asks, what's it for? And know what your podcast is for. It helps you with target client. You know, it helps you with all the things who are your guests, who are. What are you trying to do make sure you know why you're doing it. It's not just fun to have a podcast. I mean, it might be fun to just have a podcast. I have, you know, like middle of the night dreams where I'm like, oh, I should have a sex show or I should have a. Oh, Melanie, I don't.

You're gonna have spinoffs. I love it.

I don't think so. Because they're not for anything like know what your podcast is for, especially if you're in business. Like, you have to know what it's for.

Melanie, I'm so glad you came on the show today. I was so glad that everyone got to hear how you've been experimenting and getting the experimental leader podcast going. So everyone, you're going to want to check out the experimental leader podcast, Melanie Parish, and you'll be able to find everything on how to reach her, how to get to her show, how to get to her website, how to check out all of that by going to the bingefactor.com Melanie, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you. It's been so fun to get to meet you.

Ah, didn't you love how Melanie sort of let loose at the end? She's like thinking experimentally in her mind right there. We gave her the freedom over the course of this interview to start to do exactly what she said she wanted to do next. I just love that. That always makes me feel so good when I see someone's eyes light up with an idea or someone really being so proud of the accomplishments of what they've created. And Melanie has done such a great job of being the content producer for her company and for her coaching business and everything that she needs. And 40 episodes into it, you can see the improvements in the show. You can see that she's on a great path to creating a truly binge able show. And when she taps into just the right audience and as she put it, the audience from the just starting out as a leader to being like three years into it, that perfect sweet spot of her audience where she can really, truly help them, not only are they going to consume everything she has, they're going to ask for more. And that's when they do more than just buy your book. They ask for her coaching and they ask for her help because she's going to be their guide and their leader. So this is ideal. She's positioning everything up just right. And I love where she's going with her show. So I'm so glad you could learn from her today. And I look forward to bringing you more of these new hybrid styles where we can do a little bit of coaching and a lot of success tips at the same time. Because I think we learn from both of those. And it's helpful to learn from both of those within it. Because the thing that I'm hearing again and again from podcasters out there is although they feel that they hit a certain success metric, they don't feel successful everywhere. They might need to encourage more engagement as Melanie needs to, or increase listeners or dial in this guesting thing that's not going right for them. So tap into this. Pull the little nuggets that are going to work for you. Make one change to your show. That's my challenge to you today. Make one new experiment in your show. Change something today and go check out Melanie Paris. Show the experimental leader and see all the changes that she's created. You can find all that information at the blog post for this episode@thebidgefactor.com and of course, don't be afraid. Apply to the show and let me both help guide you and let your success tips guide others. So thanks again everyone for listening. I'll be back next week with another bingeable podcaster.

You've been listening to, the Binge Factor Podcast. For more information on podcasting and video casting, success tips and tactics, please go to thebingefactor.com and be sure to listen to our other show for podcasters called Feed you'd brand. If you'd like to be interviewed on this show as well as featured in Tracy's column, please go to thebingefactor.com guest and apply.