Ep 355 Overwhelm and the Enneagram with Tracy O'Malley

Welcome to this Organized Life. If you're a mom, wife or coffee lover seeking advice on how to reduce clutter and reclaim time, look no further than your host, Lori Palau, founder of Simply Be Organized and author of Hot Mess, a Practical Guide to Getting Organized. For a lot of people, clutter is their dirty little secret. But it doesn't have to be. Each week we will share practical tips, chat with experts, and provide strategies on.

How to keep you organized.

I hope that by sharing our stories, you feel a little less alone and more empowered to tackle the areas that.

Are holding you back.

So let's get started.

Hey guys, Laurie here for a quick disclaimer before you guys listen to today's episode. It is a great one. However, my guest may have dropped some colorful language throughout. So if you are listening with little ears in the car, you might want to hold off until they are not around. All right. Enjoy today's show. Hi everybody and welcome to today's episode of this Organized Life podcast. I am your host, Lori Palau and I am so, so excited that you're here. If you are brand new to our show, welcome. Make sure you click that Follow or subscribe button wherever you're listening or watching so that you never miss an episode. We drop two episodes a week. Mondays are our tip of the week. And then of course on Thursdays we have our long form episodes with Glass. Great guests like the one I'm about to bring you today. And we if you're just hopping in, we are in the midst of a series. It's a five part series all about the five clutter pitfalls. And those five clutter pitfalls are procrastination, indecision, guilt, overwhelm and time. And we're walking through each one of them and we're connecting the dots to how the Enneagram plays a role and shows up in each of those pitfalls. So I don't know if you're a geek like me, you're going to be totally into this and if you have been listening to the other episodes, you're going to really, really be in for a treat with our guest today because she's an eight like me and she's a rock star and I can't wait to bring her out. So before I do, let me just tell you a little bit about her. So joining me today is Tracy o'. Malley. And Tracy is a highly stressful, sought after master performance coach. She's done consulting for companies like Google and YouTube and Amazon and John Deere. I don't know, maybe You've heard of some of them. And she also hosts her own podcast called Lead with the Enneagram. And again, we were talking offline, and I was like, wait, we got to put a pin in this, because this is too good. We need to save this for the show. And again, when I approached her, I said, we're doing this series, and I would love to have you come on and talk about it. And so we are going to talk about the big, big one today, which is Overwhelm. And I think regardless of what your Enneagram type is, we can all relate to feeling overwhelmed when it comes to clutter and organization. And I think it's interesting in the work that I've been doing, geeking out behind the scenes of looking at how that shows up in each of the different types. And so we're going to unpack all the things. So without further ado, let me welcome my friend, fellow 8, Tracy O', Malley, to the show. Welcome, Tracy.

Thanks for having me on. I'm so excited to chat and get. Get into all the juicy stuff with you.

I know, I know. I'm really, really excited. So before we get into everything, tell our listeners a little bit about who you are and what you do well.

Why you should listen. Like, when I talk about who I am, like. Like why I might be relatable to you. I'm a mom. I am in my 50s now, so I have grown adult children. I've been married, I've been divorced. I've been through a recession. I've been through deaths. I've been through pretty addiction, pretty much everything that you can experience in life. And it was about 12 years ago that I had just turned 40 years old. And it was like this coming out of the divorce and the recession and things like that. On paper, I looked great. I really, really did. On paper, everybody's like, you're amazing. You're a superwoman. You know, My kids were teenagers, but inside, I could feel the overwhelm starting to take over, and it was bubbling up. And I know you're an eight, and our threshold is a lot higher than most people. And that's why, like, to the outside world, it looked okay, but I knew I was pretty much just one crisis away from it all, like the wheels flying off the axle. And before that happened, I really wanted to get a handle on this. I started to see my teenage children repeat things from my lineage that I want repeated. If you don't repair it, you repeat it or it gets repeated or both. And before all completely broke Loose. I decided to get some extra tools in the tool belt. Right. I have. I come from a great family back in Chicago. Tough, strong, Irish family pride. Like, were just tough as nails. And although I love that about myself, there's this other part of me that I couldn't access. And everything that was taught, told, and modeled for me told me that I should not access that because that was a sign of weakness. But I knew otherwise, like, from the neck up. And I also saw in my life where I needed more of that, but I did not know. I had no idea what to do with that. So I made the decision to check myself into rehab. I've used everything but drugs to deal with life. Alcohol, food, anger, codependency. You name it, I've used it, except for drugs. And it was in rehab, actually, almost 12 years ago that my therapist, also an 8, like you and I, she had me. She. She's like, hey, I want you to take this enneagram thing. And with some colorful language, I told her to go f herself and that I don't need a label. I don't need to be put in a box. Thank you very much. I' coming here with plenty. Just help me how? Like, help me fix this other crap. I. I don't need this thing. And she wasn't even rattled by it. I was a little more intense than I'm sharing with you right now, as you can imagine, as an 8. And she wasn't even rattled by it. And she's like, my dear, your best thinking has gotten you here. And this might help you get out of the box that not only the world has put you in, but you've also put yourself in. So how about you open up your mind a little bit and indulge me? I was like.

I can't argue with that. And the fact that she wasn't even remotely rattled by me. I knew she could go the distance with me. And originally, I was mistyped as a three, which, behaviorally, I can look very three, like, so can you. But motivationally, I could not be more different than 03. And that's where my real journey began with first allowed me to understand and make sense of why I did everything that I did. Some of the really great things and some of the not so great things, but the biggest aha was the rest of my life. You know, I know you take a holistic approach to life. So do I. And my first thought was, oh, my goodness, I only speak this eight language, and I am raising two beautiful humans that don't. And no matter how well intended and how much in integrity I felt I was, it wasn't landing on the hearts of them the way that I desired. And, you know, it creates disconnect. And also, I was like, oh, gosh, all areas of my life, I can see this kind of breakdown unless I'm talking to an eight. Like, it's not landing.

Oh, you are. I'm like, this is a story. This is a story of my life. Now, can I interrupt you for one second? So you have two kids, right? Because we're very, like. We're, like, the same age. We have, like, so many parallels. How old are your. How old are your kids now?

I have Irish twins. They are almost 26 and 27. Almost.

Okay, so your kids are a little bit older. You just started little earlier than I did, because we're. What. What type are your kids?

My daughter is an enneagram7, and my daughter is an enneagram, too. So we represent all three of the centers of intelligence. So I'm in the instinctual center, he's in the center, and she's in the thinking center.

Okay. So I have two kids that are two grown daughters, one who's 20 and one who's almost 23. And they're a four and a nine, and my husband is a three. So we have too aggressive stance and two withdrawing stance. And let me tell you, the parenting fails that I have, and that's part of the reason why I do this. Not just about Olive. And I was saying this to you earlier about the. How do we organize our space, but the communication tools that I used to try to get a response or to get a. To get results for my kids were so off base because I was using 8 language to connect with somebody who was like, here I am, this direct communicator, and my kids are withdrawing and retreating, and it was a nightmare. So I can.

You have two kids that are a four and a nine?

Yeah.

Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Like, definitely the recoil on that. I'm dating a four as well. So I have the four, the two, the seven. And when you have two withdrawing types, like, I have to be very mindful with the four that I'm with, because I know that intensity sometimes can be like, peace out.

Listen. We could do a whole episode on all the mistakes I made. And my four daughters been very vocal. Anybody who's been with me for a while, she's been on my show a couple times, and thank God there she has a lot of grace, because, I mean, we talk a lot about emotional clutter. And i4 is, yeah, the poster child for emotional clutter. And so for me, it was unbelievable to like learn this and go, oh my God, these are the things that I've, like mistakes that I've made. Anyway, I'm totally digressing back to you. You're so. Anyway, we're, we're sidebarring, but go ahead, continue with your story. It's so fascinating.

So like, when you hit the age of 40, it's kind of like, why am I here and what am I doing and what's working and what's not. And it's very easy, you know, even though we all have this, we can feel the shame and the regret. You know, yours and mine usually manifests in some kind of anger, typically. And although that anger can be a really healthy emotion, most of the time we don't use it in the most beautiful ways. And like, being angry at myself wasn't serving me them and anything I was here to do, I was also, you know, when I checked it myself into rehab, I walked away from a 15 year career in the car industry, which is a very masculine energy. I thrived in it. Big chakra there. Yeah, right. Like a male dominated, intense, aggressive, like.

Everything that thick skinned, like.

Yeah, yeah. And I was the best and strong and powerful. And, you know, being a woman in that industry was even a bigger commodity. But I would. It felt soulless. And although I would never trade the intensity of who I am, I mean, I'm almost 100 Irish. I'm an Aries, you know, I'm an Aries too. When's your birthday?

April 12th. When's yours?

Mine's the 3rd. Love it.

So, like, I wouldn't trade that intensity for anything. It's. It is my superpower. Right. And what I love about the Enneagram and understanding of it and what I learned very quickly about mine and all the other eight types is, you know, the things that are our superpowers within the Enneagram can only be our superpowers when they're coming from love, compassion, empathy, service, grace, fun and innocence. And because that intensity is my superpower when I'm in that sense space. It's why I can lead CEOs over at John Deere and Google. And I'm like, I can, right? But that same intensity took my life to freaking ground zero and almost wiped out the relationship I had with the most important people in my life. When that intensity was coming from fear, insecurity, unworthiness, shame, guilt, or ego. And so what I learned early on about the Enneagram and how I've gone on to teach millions of people about it today is we don't have to change who we are. So we can all take this exhale. You listening right now can just like, thank God. Thank God I don't have to change who I am. However, you are responsible for the come from, and that is where your work continues and begins and. And evolves. And until we're done here on earth, that will continue. So, you know, in understanding the framework as well, it's like we're more than just our type. You're pretty well versed in the Enneagram, which I'm obsessed with, by the way. More than just our type. And it's not an excuse and. Or a reason to stay st. Or to use it as a wall or to use it as a weapon. You know, I say that all the time.

It's not an excuse and it's not to be weaponized. It's a context. Yeah, it's a compass.

Yeah, it's compass and it's framework. And when, you know, it's kind of like a gps. Seriously, if you know where you're going and where you're headed, you don't mind the detours along the way, as long as you know how to get back on the path. Right. And. And that provided that for myself. And really, when you are going through a process of recovery and unpacking 40 years of traumas and alcoholism in your family and all sorts of stuff like, it can feel overwhelming to try and get to the wreckage, the true wreckage. The Enneagram helped me fast track and accelerate that transformation. And when I saw that for myself and within my family immediately, and then started bringing it into my professional life and my. My friendships and, you know, new life in. In romantic partnerships. Like, thank God for this because seriously, I can see with my four boyfriend, I'm like, if I did not know this information, I would have felt completely like. Like you were throwing shade at me. When the four withdraws and all sorts of things like understanding this framework and the compass and the system really allows me to not take things as personal. Even when they feel. Yes, when they feel personal. And that includes like the way that I talk to myself too. So. Absolutely early on and I got into it.

No, I love it. It's so exciting. And I. I think again, especially and I say this only knowing what it feels like to be an 8.

It was just when I understood, when I first learned the Enneagram. And I like you mistyped as A three. And I could totally understand. I immediately knew I was a three. I knew immediately I was like. And I. I don't. I'm not a quiz person. I always tell people, I'm like, I believe in reading about it, learning about it. And as soon as I read about the eights, I was like, oh, that's. That is me. But what I tell our listeners, what I tell people all the time, is the value in learning because it is a fluid framework. And because when it comes to clutter and organization, it is so stress inducing. We move throughout all of the different types. And so my stress number, you know, or my stress type or my security, we pull from all of that. And that's why it's so important for us to not just know our type. Like, that's a great place to start. But if we really want to apply this in asp, all aspects of our lives, it's really important to have an understanding of the different types. And that's why we're doing theories. That's why we're walking through all of the different types. That's why I have experts of different types to speak to what it's like to be that. Because I can. Yeah, you know, I can like it, you know, read about what it's like to be a five, but I don't live at a five or four.

Doesn't equal transformation. It's how we integrate it. And what I like to say about our core type, that doesn't typically change. It's where, you know, our fears and our motives, our default is. But in default is not where we can transform our lives. It's through the other parts and components of the Enneagram that allows us to do that. So back in the day, I was just 8, pure 8. Didn't use my wings. I mean, I could use my stressor number or my number from time to time, but I didn't know what to do with it. I had no idea with it.

Yeah, well. And part of me, as much as I came into the Enneagram later in life, I was in my mid-40s when I learned it. My kids. The damage had been done.

It's never too late.

No, this is true. But I. I kind of, like, I had a different wisdom and perspective because, like, I was on the back nine of, you know, saying, okay, I wasn't in the weeds as I was in my 20s and 30s. And so it gave me, I think, a unique perspective. On the flip side, there'd be. There's a part of me that's like, oh, I really wish I did know this when my kids were younger or in the earlier years of my marriage and all of that as, as a tool for communication. Because ultimately I think clear communication helps reduce the conflict, the confusion, all the chaos. And so much of where we struggle with the physical clutter, the emotional clutter and our calendar clutter all stems from all of those stressor points.

All of it. And you know, to your point, I know somebody listening right now is probably intrigued and like, geez, I, I wish I had known this sooner too. And I, I say this all the time, like when the student's ready, the teacher, the tools appear. And honestly, could understanding of this tool made made my life a little easier early on? Maybe. But knowing where I was at my life earlier on, I would have used it to manipulate or to control.

In a way that isn't in integrity or of the greatest good for us all. So I think it's probably pretty great. It was divine timing that I was introduced to this.

Amen. I couldn't agree more. So I'm going to allow you. This is where the fun comes in for me because I get to sit there and allow somebody else to kind of teach and share their perspective and wisdom. And we've had a bunch of different other people on the show talking about this and, and people like to teach by stance, by triads, by chronological. I'm going to allow you to approach this however you want, but I think ultimately I'd love for you to just walk us through each of the nine types whatever way you'd like and just give a very brief overview because we do have some people that are still not really overly familiar with the enneagram and just maybe explain in your own words where you think that that person might struggle with some overwhelm and maybe some things that they could do to mitigate that.

Well, I think it's really important to understand that what overwhelms me and Lori may not overwhelm you and vice versa. And that is the first thing that we need to understand because I think, you know, early on, when I think about what overwhelms my enneagram2son, quite often I judged him for it because I was like, seriously? Like seriously? That overwhelms you or what Overwhelms my daughter. So, you know, before we dive in, I really want you to understand there's no right or wrong way what overwhelms Lori and I is different than you and we can learn from each other when we're open minded to See, like, they have different lenses in which they fear the world, are motivated by the world. And so just understanding that alone will help you not only support yourself better when you are overwhelmed, but support those that you love and lead in your life when they are overwhelmed too. So now I like to kind of start with like the three centers of intelligence because, you know, I'm well versed and I can do this in my sleep. I've been at this for well over a decade. I can pretty much pinpoint somebody within a few minutes of talking to somebody because I know the right questions to ask, I know how to get there. But what I really like to tell people is when you're. You're trying to understand who you're talking to, whether it's yourself or somebody else, like finding out where their core motive is in the center of intelligence. Well, we have three centers of intelligence. We use all three. Right? We do use all three, and they're all really, really important. But where we default to first is usually where our core Enneagram type lays. So for the twos, threes and fours, those three types are in the feeling center of intelligence. Right. So they make decision decisions, process information, communicate based on feelings. Right. That's where they go to first. How does this make me feel? What do I feel about this? They kind of tend to look like what has happened in the past. Right. Even though we can all do that. The. The twos, threes and fours kind of go, okay, what has happened? That's why they're really good in relationship connection. They're. They're like the human component of the Enneagram, quite honestly, in a way that the other six types aren't. Now, when a 2 is in the feeling center and they're dealing, what overwhelms them is based around their fears. Their fear is not being loved and appreciated. Everything they do is to feel significant in this world. And what they do for other people. Now you can see where that is amazing and great connectors and relationship people of the world, again, that's their superpower. But when they're not in the higher.

You know, the love, compassion, empathy, service and grace, that very thing, that healthier version of themselves. Yeah. Then they can be taken advantage of, feel unappreciated or feel resentful. Be over givers have these unrealistic expectations of what other people might do to help. So like understanding that for an enneagram 2. For an enneagram 3, you might not think. If you know the Enneagram, you might not think Threes Feel a whole heck of a lot because they're like, see a goal, hit a goal, see a goal, hit a goal. But they actually do feel a lot. But they've learned to kind of like shove it down and just fixate on the end zone. But they also are driven by a form of significance, right? Their significance comes in what they do, what they achieve, or how they appear in the world. So their biggest fear is not being great. So what can overwhelm them? Hello. If they know they're not going to crush it, win, finish it, look amazing doing it, get the recognition for it like that seriously can overwhelm them and have them trying to spin so many plates like, well, I got to be the best. I got to be the best. I got to be the best. And sometimes threes will take on stuff just because they can win it, not because they necessarily want to.

Can I add on to something before you hit on the four? Just because. And, and again, long term listeners, I know that you. This sounds like a broken record, but Josh is a three. That's my husband. He's a three. We've studied a lot of threes. And when it comes to clutter, almost every three, and I'm sure there's someone out there that doesn't fall into this category, but almost every three that I've ever spoken with has a visceral physical reaction to physical clutter because of that image consciousness and that, what that appearance and that, that achievement. When they see disorganization when it comes to physical stuff specifically, that produces anxiety and overwhelm. And I, my husband used it and I tell the story all the time. This is years before I knew the enneagram. He would come home and I would be like cleaning up from dinner and the kids would be. And I mean, I'm an organizer by nature. Even before I did this professionally. So my house was never totally crazy. But I was about. With like little kids, he would not even like have his coat off and he'd be picking up toys and picking up things and just mindlessly putting stuff away. And even as much as a few years ago when my girls were in high school, if they were like doing their homework on the coffee table, he would just walk in a room and automatically just start sweeping up and doing things because he was, it was so stress inducing that he just couldn't see it. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, like not yours to do. But it was such a, just when he wasn't aware of it, it was just almost like a knee jerk response. And I think that just. I just want to kind of create that illustration for people that are out there.

Well, there's two things going on with that. There's the. How does a cluttered home make me appear? There's that element of, like, you know, the image of it. And there's also the part for an enneagram 3 that clutter slows down their rate, in which. In which they can be efficient and move through tasks faster. So, like, it's a kind of this double thing going on. It's like, how does the world perceive me? But also, I can't be as fast and quick to get to the end zone if all this crap's in my way. Yeah, right. Yeah. Very powerful. Very powerful.

Anyway, I'm sorry for interrupting you. Go back to the. Go back to your fours now. And to finish up the theory, what.

I like to say about this as well is, you know, very rarely, unless you live with a 3, will you see the messy parts of a 3. Usually a 3 might have a secret kind of closet area that, you know, this stuff gets thrown there while they're blazing through life. And that can. When they're in their stress and burnt out, sometimes they'll be in that pit. But very rarely will you ever see a three kind of out of that line. But just know, like, if you live or love, love one, there's something like that usually kind of lurking. And there's some shame attached to that as well, because the underlying emotion for the feeling center is shame. Now the twos wear it more in their sleeve. The threes kind of bury it, right?

Totally. Totally, yes.

100 now, fours, like you said earlier, are like the poster child of emotion and emotion. They. But they're. They. They go for significance in a totally different way than the twos or threes. How they find significance is discovering who they are in this lifetime. It isn't like looking out at the world or what they do. It isn't what they achieve. It isn't how they serve other people. It's like, who am I and what am I here for? A lot of musicians, artists, comedians. Robin Williams, I think was a. An enneagram for. So you can see where, like, on the outside, they can be very social and have this huge emotional range and take you through the journey, right? They're great storytellers as well. But that drive for significance, a lot of times they'll quit before the miracle happens, right? And that usually happens, you know, when they're head down in their imagination and creativity, it's awesome. But it can also be a dark place. Right. And where it goes sideways and where overwhelm can really creep in for a four is when they look up and at the rest of the world or they're in an environment or a family system or relationships where they're, they're not understood. They feel like nobody understands me, Nobody understands me. And I've never met a four. That's like another. So they're really, a lot of times they're mistyped as something else because they can kind of conform and they're changing it like what is authentic to them at all times. So it's kind of hard and, and if you are somebody who just wants to know things, like they like to, to explore that. And for a lot of people, they don't have time for that. And it can be very abandoning to a four. And that's their biggest fear is abandonment. Right. I was raised with a four. My goodness. They can be dramatic sometimes externally, but usually internally. And that shame, it's an inside job for them. And it's why it can be very, very dark for a four. And when they're overwhelmed, they withdraw. They withdraw. Typically they can be a little spicy, you know, because. Reactive type too. But usually to process or do anything, they go inward. And because that emotional depth is so deep, it can go down fast.

Yeah, I, I mean, I agree and I, I, you know, of course, I just think back to parenting a four and what that's like. And she also, on top of it, has adhd and so there's all that. But I, I've seen the overwhelm come in when it comes to that not being able to. Feeling as though she's not measuring up to other people's expectations. She's a very glass half empty person. And I'm always like, let's try to look at the glass half full. And it's just that is, you know, counterintuitive for her. She's also still, you know, a 20 year old. So, you know, there's, there's, there's all also developmental things as well. But again, that feeling that when, especially when it comes to organization and you think of a lot of a creative mind not always having those intuitively practical, logical skills that come, that comes in conjunction with organization as a whole. It can just, the whole process can seem very, very distant to a 4. And I think that can really struggle.

Yeah. And fours don't necessarily love systems because it, they feel like it takes, it robs them of their authenticity and creativity sometimes. So they kind of Lack in doing sometimes. So what I'll usually tell a four that I'm loving or leading is like, let's pick like two things that you have some structure around. And usually for a four, if they are getting good sleep, if they're nutritionally fueling their body, and if they're moving it, even if just a walk, that creativity actually starts to overflow and it gives them some momentum to take action rather than just withdraw. So I'm like, I don't want to rob you of any of your creative process or anything, like, because I know if I give you too much structure, you're like, yeah, you don't get out.

And that is so good. That is so good. And I'm going to tell you a funny story for anyone listening out here. So when Logan, she just started her junior year in college and we were doing, I was doing some like, kind of back to school shopping with her. And she's like, mom, because she's, I mean, obviously she's been drinking my Kool Aid for years. So she's like, I, I want a wall calendar for my room so that even though I have my stuff, my schedule, I like to be able to like, kind of like look at a bird's eye view. And so we went to a store and we were looking and they were all like very boring, mundane, functional wall calendars. And she's just like, oh. And then we found this one, I kid you not. And it said, you know, there's like, today's like Burrito Day or Taco Day or Margarita Day, okay? So this one had, it was all like colors and it was a big wall calendar, but it was every day of the year had, today is National Donut Day. And it was all in colors and emojis and had made it fun. And she's like, I love this. And here I am going, this is like such a. This is a no, this is noise. Like, to me, I'm like, this is noise. She loves it. She, we got it. She has all of her stuff written down. And she's now gamified it where she's like, my roommates and I, every day we look at like, what, you know, what crazy, nonsensical holiday is today? But it allows her to want to use that calendar, to want, want to stay on task. Because as opposed to me going, well, here's a practical, boring wall calendar.

Right? But this is a way that she enjoys doing it and looks forward to it and it encourages her to go in and look at it. So just trying to Find something that again aligns with what's going to interest you has been really, really helpful for those fours out there.

There, it's. I think fours next to eights are the most misunderstood. I think that's why, once we do know how to speak to each other, it's why it's a beautiful. Like the relationship I have, it would never have worked 15 years ago, but because I so understand him and he understands me. It's. It's amazing. Like the strength and the creativity and the imagination and I love that for your daughter and like her way. As long as we get the, the thing moving in the right direction, who cares how? Who cares how, right?

And I say that, I say that all the time. Listen, we know where the destination is. Some people like to take the highway, some people like to take the back roads. As long as we get there by the time we're supposed to get there. So.

All right, so we're going into the thinking center of intelligence now.

Yep.

Where the five, six and sevens are. And they all need some kind of certainty. That's where their motives are. Now how they go about it looks really, really different for a 5, 6 and 7. Just like the need for significance and the motive of significance for the 3 or the 2, 3 and 4 is very different. How the 5, 6 and 7 go about their need for certainty and the motive to have it is really, really important. They often go into what could happen, right? They're forward thinkers. Thinkers, thinkers, thinkers. They process, they communicate. They take in information through their brains, Right? So what could happen? What could happen? That's what makes them incredible visionaries, innovators, problem solvers, troubleshooters. Like, they're forward thinking so much. They can get a little paralyzed by that. Because all the what ifs and what could have or what could happen can create fear and anxiety, which is the underlying emotion and default emotion for the 5, 6 and 7. And now for the 5, how they go about certainty? They're motivated by information, knowledge and resources. I love fives, by the way. They are called the investigator. And they, they need to know things. They like to know all the things, but they like to do it in their little bubble where they won't be depleted or intruded on energetically. Right. So with fives, what overwhelms them is people in their business. People in their business. I have, I'm really close with a lot of fives because they know that I get it. It's like, here, I'm gonna. Bottom line, you, here's the bullet points you let me know when you're available for that, like, respect of. They need that certainty that they're gonna have information, energy and resources. And because for fives, like, they only have a certain amount of energy, it's not like me and you, where we can manufacture energy, like it's going out of style.

Totally.

In fact, we stir the pot to create more energy.

We get energy from that.

Right. But two of five, that could feel very disrespectful if we kind of intrude on them and try to like, stir the pot with them. So what overwhelms them is too muchness or intrusion. What also overwhelms them is what they're great at too, which is intel. I mean, they're the most brilliant wise. They can, they can be non emotional, which is their gift, but that's also their downfall. Right. And you, you just think about it like a faucet or a drain, like if there's too much going in all at once, it's going to clog. Right. And a 5 can get overwhelmed by too much, too many tabs open, which is kind of how they operate.

Yes. I love that.

I love that. Yeah. So, you know, understanding that about a five and being gentle with them, like telling them not to worry about it, telling a 5, 6, or 7 not to worry about it is really not nice. And they all three of them, you will lose credibility and trust and respect from a 5, 6 or 7. When you say don't worry about it because they're gonna. Where you and I, we just handle it. We just like forge through it. When I understood and was learning about the Enneagram, I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm such an.

Well, hello.

We'll get to the eighth in a second.

Okay, so wait, before we go on to Sixes. Oh, I'm sorry. Before we go into six, I want to take a quick break. So we're going to take a quick break. We'll come right back and we'll continue on with our Sixes. Let's talk about our Sixes.

Now. Sixes have the need for certainty that is so evident and obvious. Like when Covid happened, like Sixes, worst case scenario for them because their whole life is about troubleshooting and worst case scenario preparation. Right. Their certainty comes in the form of being prepared.

Having resources and supplies and so they could never have seen coming. What happened in 2020? They bought all the toilet paper for sure. You know, they're. They're thinking 10 steps ahead and have 10 different game plans. For all the possibilities of what could happen. It's why it's great to have a six on your team. It's why it's really great to have a six in your organization because they're master troubleshooters and amazing strategists. Now where their downfall comes is they take it really personal when those of us around them don't think things through as well. We seem very rude to them. One of the closer relationships I've had in my life, she was a self preservation 6. So it was extra high alert of like, I need to know all the things. And I'm just like, let's freaking go.

Yeah.

And I would just plow through the room and I'm like. And she would be like, this is like shaking my. I don't feel safe with you. Right. And for a six, when they feel like all the wheels are about to fly off and they don't have enough information or you're not respecting their need for the questions that they have, they have lots of questions. And I had to learn this as an 8 because when people come at you or me with questions, I feel like they're trying to control me. And it feels like an interrogation. And how I respond to being controlled is, it's going to be spicy. I'm going to bite. And understanding that a 6 has lots of questions, not to disrespect you or to slow the train down, but how they can get bought in on their need for certainty comes with. With you answering their. Their questions. So when a Six is overwhelmed, slowing down enough to hear them out now, we don't enable them, we don't want to enable them to be so paralyzed by I need more. I need more. I need more information. So what I'll usually say to a Six is like, I'll sit here and answer all your questions as long as you need. And at the end, we're taking action. Even if you don't have everything that you need. This is where faith comes in, right? But because. Because I see them and I care enough for their need for certainty, even though I don't need certainty. In fact, I get off on not having certainty.

Right?

But me being compassionate enough that that is their core motive. And it like their biggest fear is not being prepared. So me just respecting them enough to be thoughtful, to slow down even when I want to just fly through things, that's where credibility and trust is built. And it's where their courage grows too, because they can see where, oh, I took this step without having all the information and it turned out better than I could have expected.

I love it. Can I also add one thing to your sixes? Just from again, a practical perspective of when I used to see clients a lot in homes. Some of the most.

Some of the people that really responded the best to having that accountability partner there were the sexes because they didn't trust themselves. So I would be sitting there and they'd be like, thank you so much for helping me. I'm like, you made the decision. I just sat there and reinforced what you already knew. But because they can easily not trust themselves or, and that would that in and of itself becomes a self fulfilling prophecy of overwhelm. Having that person there, whether it's a professional organizer, whether it's a buddy, whether it's whatever it is to sit and alongside you as you're going through specifically when it comes to organization or clutter, maybe it's just talking it out. Like I just want to talk out this process and having somebody to bounce that ideas off of. And we go like, I had a six that was an assistant of mine for years and we would go on jobs and we'd be walk, you know, walking through what's the best strategy for this? And she go, okay, I just want to talk this out. And she knew exactly what to do. But she needed before she could feel confident in taking action. She just wanted to run it by me so I could be like, yeah, that's. Yeah, you're on the right track.

Yep, 100%. What overwhelms six is also, you know, not trusting themselves. But where they can get hung up relationally too is not trusting others. Like they're always kind of poking holes, especially more of the self preservation. Sure, they're trying to poke holes and like, can I fully trust you? Can I fully trust you? And if I'm doing all this stuff on this other end to show support and I don't feel like you're trusting me, I'm like, so really finding that common ground is like, listen, I'm going to disappoint you at some point because I'm a human, but I'm here with you in the trench. Like, I'm not going anywhere. I'm not going anywhere. I got your back, right?

I love it.

And teaching A6 how to have their own back too is pretty cool. Now Sevens, my seven daughter is why I studied the Enneagram, because I don't have a relationship with my own mother. And the last, my biggest fear was not having one with my own daughter, right? Like I knew I Was gifted and, and blessed with a beautiful daughter for a lot of reasons. And she's my greatest teacher and honestly one of my closest friends today. But, you know, rewind. 12 years ago when she was 15, I could feel the divide. I could feel the divide. And it was because she probably felt like I didn't understand her. She knew I had her back and she knew like, if. If hell was breaking loose, mom had it. But at some point, she didn't feel like I got her and I didn't because I don't even know how sevens function half the time. I really, really don't. Because they are the enthusia visionary and their need for certainty comes in the form of all options must be available to them at all times. And I, I say about seven. Sometimes they walk around with these, these handfuls of seeds that can produce some of the most unique, beautiful, creative, amazing gifts, whether it's, you know, food, flowers, businesses, whatever. Like, they think outside of a box that, that none of us think in. Right? But because they're so enthusiastic and they want to do all the things at all the times, they basically walk around life throwing these seeds all over the place and haven't created an environment where they can take root. Right? And that's where. When we see a seven really like, rooted and, and take that vision to the next level, like, that's, that's important. And so how do you communicate and help A7 feeling overwhelmed that they're missing out? Like, I want to do all of it. I want to do all of it, but when they're trying to do all of it, they don't do anything great.

Right?

And they're great once they can focus for a short period of time. So what I'll usually say to my sevens and, and two of my closest friends and my daughter are seven, so like, I know how to speak to them so they can take some of my eightness. And I also have learned so much from them. But what I'll usually say to a seven is like, hey, hey, we're going to do all of it, and we're going to have a time doing it. We're going to do all of it. You can do all of it. Even in my head, I'm like, there's no freaking.

I can't say that to them. Otherwise they're out. They're going to. They're like the squirrel. They're out. Yeah, right. But where you earn their trust and how you help them through overwhelm is like, okay, but let's pick like two Things right now, two things. When my daughter, I knew she didn't want to go to traditional college, right. She wanted to be in the beauty industry, which there's all different things. I'm like, cool, let's pick the one thing first. So she went to la, got certified in professional makeup, then she came here to back to Arizona and then she got licensed as an esthetician. Now she does permanent makeup. She has like 14 different services. She does, but she got really great at each one individually. Like, this hyper focused attention to one thing at a time allows her to have this full scope of a wide range of things.

And that's a level of maturity and discipline that really requires a level, I mean, that intentionality to say, I'm going to focus in. Because I could see it being super enticing to say, I'm going to study this and I'm going to study this and I'm going to study this and I'm going to do all that as opposed to saying, let me do this. Check the box and then move on and build from there.

The other thing, like with sevens, they, they want to try all the things.

Yes.

Right. And so when you're dealing with organization and they get overwhelmed as they're trying all the things at once and they look up and now it's like, oh my gosh, I'm so overwhelmed by all the things. So they do nothing. Or then they get like almost perfectionistic when it's not going the way that, that they expect it to. So like a seven and overwhelm, you know, when they feel like they're being like closed in on, sometimes it's by too much stuff, sometimes it's by committing too much to too many things. Sometimes it's people not understanding them or hearing them out. Like it's a whole slew of things that can overwhelm a 7. And when a 7 is in overwhelm instead of like a tornado, they become hypercritical and hyper vigilant and almost perfectionistic. And that was where my daughter and I started to collide. I was like, all of a sudden my free spirit has like a plan. Really. I've been running this show for so long, it's where we almost killed each other. But now, because I understand what's happening for a seven, instead of putting on the gloves and making it worse, I'm like, what Can I take off your plate right now?

Yeah, that's.

So stop a wheel from spinning for a moment. Let's stop the wheel for spinning and, and pick one thing at A time and brick by brick will kind of come out well.

Because Evans don't like to admit, they don't like to feel uncomfortable. Where a 4 is very comfortable and happy in the melancholy and where a seven is like, okay, I'm feeling overwhelmed, I'm gonna just pour more fuel in the fire and I'm gonna take on something else that's gonna be more fun or I'm gonna go do something else. Yes.

And make it work.

Yes, absolutely.

So helping them, like, like I'm all for gluttony, you guys. All my sevens. Like, I get it. More, you want more. You want more. But how you have more choices and freedom and gives you the long game more is by slowing down for a moment. Just for a moment. We'll do all the things, I promise, but let's go down for a moment. So you have more choices and all options available to you down the road. I love that you're going to be burying, you're going to be pulling yourself out of chaos all the time. And that's why my daughter and I like are so close today. Because she knows I get her. She's not wired like me, but I know how to speak to it and help her through that in a language and a compassion that she feels seen, heard, understood and valued for who she is. So it's amazing. And I know I have sevens in my life because Lord knows they have to teach this eight to kind of not be so hard headed all the time. So now we finish out in the instinctual center of intelligence. And all three, the eights, the nines and the ones are motivated by some form of independence, autonomy and control. Right? Now how an 8, 9 and 1 go about it, very, very different. The measuring stick and what that means to each of them, also very, very different. And how they respond when that doesn't go according to plan, also very, very different. But understanding that like the motive for all three of these is some form of independence, autonomy and control. For an 8, it's being strong and powerful. We want to be strong. That is the measuring stick on how we feel we have independence, autonomy and control. How a 9 goes about that is by creating harmony within and in their environment. Like to me, I'm like, I need to stir the pot, right? And for a one, how they go about independence, autonomy and control is through righteousness and goodness and doing the right thing. So you can see very, very different in how they go about it. Now when they fear that that is being compromised in some way, anger is the underlying emotion and Just like the other two centers of intelligence, there's one that's external with it, one that shuts it down, and one that internalizes it. Why most eights are mistyped is because of the anger. You know, people think if they're angry, they're an eight or if they pop off or that's not necessarily the case. But eights don't have a poker face when they're angry. You know, it. Even if they're not saying a thing, that energy absolutely is there. The nines, when they feel the anger, they shove it down. Like the threes shove down shame, and the sevens shove down that fear and anxiety. The. The nines shove down the anger. It's there though. It's there.

Oh, it's there. I. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. It just.

We're. We're. We're aggressive and assertive and we explode and, you know, and then we move on. And nines are more passive aggressive. And I, you can see that overwhelm and they. They. I see that internal struggle. I don't know if you agree with this, but I see that. I want peace. I want peace, but I'm feeling overwhelmed by whatever's going on in my life and because they don't want to deal with it, because they see if I deal with it, that's going to cause a conflict. And I remember having this conversation with my daughter, who's a 9, and saying not every conversation is a confrontation. And that doesn't. And not every confrontation has to be a conflict. Everything, like, she just assumes everything is going to be a conflict and so she'll avoid that. And as a result of that overwhelm can.

Yeah. So like with nines, I think nines honestly are one of the hardest to break of this because, you know, in the instinctual center, our gift, the eights, nines and one is what is happening right now. It's why we're really good in crisis. It's why we're really good like in handling certain things. It's because we're. It's where we go first. But for a nine, it's why we can like blow a place up as eights and we don't think of the long game consequence of that. But like, yeah, we blew things up and it worked out. Now we have this. This trail of wreckage we've left or, you know, we've got some things that we have to. Damage control now that we have to do. Nines do the same thing in a different way. Where you're right, they will recoil. They, eh. It's not worth it. I don't want to create a conflict. And that, that settling for short term harmony creates a long term disharmony. And when they, they feel controlled by that disharmony, how they, they deal with their angers through passive aggressive words and behaviors. But more often, even at subconscious level, their procrastination is a form of control. Their selective hearing, their stonewalling, their, their convenient forgetting, sometimes it's subconscious, sometimes it's conscious. But like that's how they maintain their control. Now for the ones they are probably the most obvious control freaks, right? They're strict perfectionists. I call them the sheriff because like they're keeping us all in line. Because how they have independence, autonomy and control is by being good or bad, right or wrong. There's no gray area. And the problem is they really don't understand why the rest of the eight types don't have that same measuring stick. And so that criticism, that external kind of like judgment. Now the thing is, is because they want to be righteous. A lot of times they're, they're smiling, but you can feel, you can feel their anger. And it's internalized first. Sometimes it'll pop off. But where they become overwhelmed is that if they feel like they do nothing right, which is pretty much all the.

Time, right in their minds.

In their minds, yeah. Like they don't understand that like their mistakes or they're not 100% is like, like way better than 99.9999% of the rest of us. But because there is not a lot of gray area, typically that's their growth and their work that has to come. That anger is internalized and it can, it can get really, really frustrating. Not just for them, but for those that they love and that they lead. Because that projection starts to come out a little bit and then it creates dysfunction in their relationships and, and the whole thing starts to fall apart. But also recognizing that, you know, loosening their grip on that black and white thinking will be necessary for them to not feel so overwhelmed. It's really hard to go from white thinking to gray area at all. But that's where their work comes. Now like I said at the beginning of this, we do use all three of the centers of intelligence. And depending on where you fall within the system of the Enneagram, how you operate in the other centers will look really different. Like I know where I dominate in the feeling center and in the thinking center is different than some of my eight friends. And it's so frustrating. I wish I dominated like them in the other centers, I just don't. But knowing how to elegantly move through the feelings, the thoughts and the instincts in a way that is coming from that love, compassion, empathy, service and grace. It's when the beauty of all of the well roundedness of who we are can help us kind of get out of the overwhelm so that we can do what we were always created to do in our homes and out in the world.

Oh my gosh. So, so good. I could talk to you about this stuff all day.

I know, I know. Well, before we take our last break, tell our listeners where if they want to learn more about the stuff that you are doing or they want to connect up and they want to follow you. You have so many great resources. I know. On your website, on social media, tell our listeners where they can find you.

Honestly, I would say for your listener, probably the best place to kind of dive in because you've had a lot of Enneagram people and, and I love that. Like I love the more conversations we're having around this beautiful, beautiful tool. But knowing what to do with this information is key. Information doesn't equal transformation, it's the integration of it. And that's kind of where my zone of genius is. I'm not going to just sit here and pop off about what is this and what is that? But I want to tell you how you use this in your life, holistically, personally and professionally with those you love, with those you lead everywhere. So probably the best resources, my podcast Last Lead with the Enneagram, I touch on, you know, personal, professional, romantic, parenting, friendships, all of it, leadership of all, farm leading yourself. I have over 350 episodes that you can go binge for free. And then, you know, I have a website like if you are part of a family or a team, you want to bring me in. We can do all sorts of cool stuff with that too. But go to the podcast lead with Enneagram.

Obviously you're listening to podcasts, so after you're done with this, go hop on over and check out Tracy's show. And of course we will link to all things Tracee o' Malley in our show notes on our podcast page. So don't worry if you're out and about, taking a walk, doing dishes, whatever it is that you're doing. We've got your back. So we're going to take one last break and then we're going to come back and we're going to put you in the hot seat for our wrap up questions. So Sit tight, Chasey. This has been awesome, and I love. I just love learning from other people to see what their interpretations are, their takeaways. So thank you so much. I think it's so valuable. Obviously, you're an inspiration to so many people. Can you share with us a book or if you have a couple that you've read in your life that's either been transformational or something that you go back to that you refer to other people, something that's been really impactful in your world that you can share with myself and our listeners.

I will say two that have nothing to do with the Enneagram.

Totally fair.

The first one was my first exposure to Brene Brown. In rehab, my therapist gave me this book called the Gifts of Imperfection. And I think that, you know the. The beauty of the Enneagram. It was around the same day that I was introduced to the Enneagram that this book was given to me. And the. The beautiful part of the Enneagram is the ability to understand ourselves at a deeper level and what motivates us, and that's where we can find compassion for ourselves. That book saved my ass, and I still have the original that I had. And, I mean, it's all marked up, and, like, every time I open it, I can feel, like, the gratitude coming from that. If you have not read that, it's.

On my bookshelf downstairs.

Amazing. Brene Brown is an Enneagram one, so she knows her for sure.

The other one, I would say, is called the Energy Bus. Bus by John Gordon. He also wrote a book called the Carpenter. He has lots of really good, incredible books, and they're. They're. They're life lessons and leadership lessons told through stories. But the Energy Bus is especially important because of what I talked about. Our superpowers being our superpowers. They can only be our superpowers when we're coming from love, compassion, empathy, service, grace, innocence, and fun. The Energy Bus kind of allows us to switch or come from so that we can operate from those places rather than the fear, insecurity, unworthiness, shame, guilt, or ego. I've recommended that book. I've sold thousands of that book to him, of his, to thousands of people. It is one of the greatest books of all time, for sure.

I love it. I thank you. And again, everyone knows I put these out there for. For y', all, as well as for myself, because this is how I get all my great book recommendations. And so thank you for that.

Our last two questions, we ask every guest in every episode, because we're all about honesty and authenticity. So I know this will not be hard for you. As an enneagram. As an enneagram 8 in this particular season of your life, where do you feel like you are the most organized again? Does it to be physical space? It could be calendar, it could be emotional, whatever it is financial. Where do you feel the most organized? Where do you feel like a little bit of a hot mess?

Oh my gosh. It's so crazy because where I feel most organized today is where I probably felt most disorganized most of my life. And it's with my emotions, it's with my feelings, it's with the full scope of the feelings. If you haven't seen the movie Inside out, you all, it's really important around the what we've talked about today and really embracing the full scope of the human emotions and how important each and every one of them are. Whereas before in my life, I mean, I'm obsessed with anger. It makes me feel alive. I can handle a lot of the more intense emotions, but like the sadness, the even joy I had a hard time with. I'm super organized with my emotional range today and the expressing the vulnerability of them.

Miracle for all the people out there that feel completely disconnected in that area. There's hope for you.

So again, a hundred percent, like, seriously, this was not taught, told, or modeled for me. And I'm not naturally wired that way. So like, it's one of what I'm most proud of. That being said, I was talking to like my Reiki lady yesterday, who's known me for 10 years, that I feel so like a hot mess in the surrender in like, you know, taking care of business. Like, I mean, I handle everything. I'm very tactical and like, there is not a problem I can't solve or anything I can't overcome. And I. But sometimes the hot mess part is just sitting in it instead of just doing all the time. I'm having a hard time just surrendering and allowing people to help me with physical things. Like emotionally. I've gotten there with like the vulnerability. But last week, I'll give you a quick story. Last week I took a fall, a really serious one that could have ended very, very badly. I was by myself, which of course, eights tackle all sorts of crazy ass things. Nobody's around because we don't need anyone, right? We're superheroes. But it was like at the back of my property, which is an acre long and literally like broke my. Almost broke my foot, landed on my back, like it was. And it was 115 degrees out, and so I had to crawl. It took me about 30 minutes across hot pavement. I burned my knee from the pa. I mean, it was.

Oh, no.

And I got inside, and immediately I started to calculate. I don't need anybody. I can wait this out till tomorrow and I can take myself to the hospital.

That's where I went with that. From the neck up, I know that's freaking crazy, right? That's insane. And I don't judge anybody that ever needs me for anything. From the neck up, I understood that. But from the neck down, it's so ingrained in me that. That I don't need anyone. I need to be strong. Right? The eight thing. So I was able to work through that and allow and receive help, even though I was kicking and screaming, letting it happen, but really embracing that and surrendering and. And letting people grow. Me and my business like to scale this thing even bigger, to put my house in order in ways like I. I can handle this big house and have. And maintain a household by myself, financially, physically. For 15 years, I've been a single parent, but allowing people to serve me and support me is the area that I physically struggle. And I'm learning.

I love that. I love that. And thank you. Thank you for that vulnerability and sharing that story with all of us because I think we learn from other people's stories and experiences. And so I appreciate you. I appreciate all the wisdom that you shared with us today. Again, everybody, make sure that you go and check out Tracy's podcast. Subscribe to it, and I'm so grateful, and I hope that you guys are enjoying this series. I hope it's giving you a new way of looking at yourself. The. The stuff that's in your life, the clutter, the things that are taking up space mentally, physically, emotionally.

And hopefully getting some tools to be able to navigate through this. So that's our goal here. And we'll be back next week with another episode in this series. If you like this episode, please share with a friend. It's free. It's so easy. Just click that share button and of course, if you feel like leaving us a review, as long as it's nice, we want to hear it, so feel.

Free to do that as well.

Do it. Thank you guys so much. Until next week, I'm Lori Palau, and I'll be back next week.

Peace out.

Thanks for tuning in. If you like this EP episode, please spread the love and share it with your friends. If this is your first time joining us, make sure to click the subscribe button wherever you are listening so you never miss an episode. And while you're there, please leave us a review so other people know that our show is worth the listen. You can also find us on YouTube and Instagram at this Organized Life podcast. And if you'd like to connect with us, you can head on over to our website at simply the letterblikeboy organized.com which is filled with filled with tons of resources, including free downloads, checklists, links to our amazing organizing partners, and all of our digital offerings. I'll see you next week for another episode of this Organized Life.