Peptides for Optimal Fitness and Athletics

Welcome to the Peptides and Longevity Podcast, redefining aging and transforming health. Each week, Dr. Kent Holtorf will dive into groundbreaking science, innovative therapies, and the future of health and longevity alongside visionary physicians and experts. We'll explore how peptides, cutting-edge medicine, and lifestyle strategies can redefine the way we age. Get ready to transform your health, optimize your vitality, and unlock the secrets to a longer, healthier life. Let's get started.

Hi, this is Dr. Kent Holtorf. Uh, today I'll be interviewing Dr. Paulvin. Uh, Dr. Paulvin's, uh, goal with all his patients, uh, is to optimize health in the first 60 minutes. Uh, he is board certified in family medicine, anti-aging medicine and regenerative medicine, osteopathic manipulation, functional medicine, craniosacral therapy, and medical acupuncture. So a wide range of modalities. He has helped top executives, Olympic athletes, top trainers, and celebrities optimize their health. Dr. Paul has been featured on the New York Post, Nutritious Life, Fasting MD, and many other publications and podcasts. His practice is based in Manhattan. He also serves clients from many states including Florida, California, uh, really across, across the country with telemedicine. Uh, he is traditional combined with alternative treatments to help his patients. Uh, the patients see Dr. Paul Veen for his expertise in biohacking and health optimization. In addition to, he specializes in helping his patients with hormones, peptide therapy, nootropics, so improving brain function, which is such an issue today, uh, and natural functions for pain relief. Dr. Paul Vonn, I welcome you to the Peptide Summit and thanks so much for being on today.

Thanks for having me, looking forward to it.

Great, so we're going to focus on kind of your sports medicine aspects, but tell me how you got started in peptides. When did you discover them and what's been kind of your journey?

Um, I do a lot of— like, most of my practice is either health optimization, like we mentioned, like brain energy, and also sports. So I got introduced to one— I think one of the ones we're really going to talk about today, BPC-157. And they're like, this medicine can help with gut health, it can help with sport injuries heal. And I was into like doing things like PRP and all that stuff. Like, wait, this works just well and there's really no side effects to it, and it hits like more than one thing. I'm like, this is awesome. And then I started delving more into more into it, I'm like, these things really work with almost all my patients, and they're a lot easier to do. Patients don't have to worry about coming to the office a lot of times. It was just— they're so great. I think they're part of the future of medicine in terms of just being able to do things much more cleanly and easier, um, than some other things that are out there.

And do you find when you tell patients about BPC-157, it's almost like— and there's so many studies that shows it does so many things— and when you tell them It's kind of like, hey, this must be snake oil. There's no way something can really repair all these different tissues.

Initially I did. I mean, then it was a combination of the fact that I've treated patients with it and I've seen the results myself. Now at the point now, I literally have patients every day coming to me or calling me and say, hey, my doctor doesn't know about BBC157. I want to use it.

So And it's amazing too, I think, is that standard medicine has never heard of this stuff. And I know when I lecture as doctors and all the references, it's like hundreds and hundreds of references, peer-reviewed. And it's like, oh my gosh, why haven't I heard about this? And do your patients say, well, if it's so great, why doesn't my doctor know about it?

Again, it was the same thing initially. Yeah, they're like, why is no doctor using it? Why am I— tell me about it. It works so easy. Being so clean with minimal side effects. Now, unfortunately, I mean, that's kind of medicine as it is. There's some doctors who practice in one box and there's some doctors who kind of like what I do. You got to play on all sides of the field to help your patients get better. So again, patients, more and more patients now are becoming their own doctor in a good way and being advocates for their health. So they're not surprised anymore. They just, they find the doctor rather than not, than feeling bad.

Yeah, you know, I think that is good that patients are realizing that the days of just going to your doctor and saying, take this, not knowing what it is, are gone. You know, they really have to understand what they're taking and seek these, you know, different therapies out because I don't know, I just— I'm sure you may feel the same, that standard medicine is so disappointing for so many conditions. Even, you know, you go from standard conditions, and we're talking about, you know, even sports injuries and, you know, joint issues and musculoskeletal problems. And then you get into complex problems. And I think that's where really standard medicine just falls apart. And where if you don't fit into a little box and have the one medicine for it, they're done. They're the doctors that say, oh, it's psychological. And so what type of peptides do you use and type of patients you treat besides the sports medicine that we'll get into?

I mean, I use it, I think you do, I probably now use all, I mean, I don't know if I use all of them at this point, but I use, there's 30 or 40 that are in my toolbox at this point. Wow. My main core and then there's ones that are always now that are kind of Like not true peptides, but they get in, they're kind of cousins that we kind of use with them. But, um, I use a lot, again, I use melanopraxis sports. I have a lot of athletes who not only want to heal their injuries, if they want to cover quicker. So I use a lot of the peptides like thymosin beta-4 and some of the CJC and other growth hormone ones to help them recover quicker. Um, 5-Amino-1MQ they love. Um, and I also use it for, in terms of anti-aging with the brain, that's really where I combine and that overlaps any of my patients from my athletes and executive patients who just want to be like at an 11 all the time. And then unfortunately, like my Lyme patients or fibromyalgia patients where they have the brain fog and, or the memory issues or autoimmune issues, and it works there too. That's what I love about them. Like I said, it hits every patient I see pretty much. I could give them 1 or 2 or 4 of them once they jump on board.

Yeah. Would, would you say it's really changed your practice?

Yes, I mean, I totally— I mean, initially it was maybe 5 or 10% of my practice, and literally once I started talking about it and word of mouth spread and I put one or two blog posts up, it's now probably 50 to 60% of my practice as the core why patients are seeing me. So it's definitely exploded in the last— within the last calendar year.

Yeah, where people are getting educated on, on these things and they're actually seeking you out for peptides.

Exactly, yeah, between groups, Facebook groups, Reddit, word of mouth. It's like, it's, it's kind of become a cult thing more than it is from the doctors telling them to use it.

That's great. Have you seen any major side effects from using peptides?

Um, though not many. I mean, there's one or two. I mean, I— the only thing I really see, um, is, um, in terms of some of the growth hormone peptides, I get a couple patients get flushing with it. We just lower the dose. That usually gets rid of that. Beyond that, it's just the only one other one I, I don't use as frequently as, um, except maybe some Lyme and SIBO patients, would be LL-37. Or, um, that's probably the other one where you really got to go low and slow and make sure there aren't many side effects to it.

You know, agreed. I'll just tell the audience, LL-37 is an antimicrobial peptide, and studies show that it kills, for instance, the Lyme cystic form better than the antibiotics, just tinidazole. And, you know, Lyme patients in general, very sensitive. You know, they can react to supplements and things like that. I just wanted to let them know what that actually is.

Yes.

And that's the nice thing is when you look at the studies that you— they give, you know, 1,000 times a dose or 100 times a dose and there's no side effect. Try that with Tylenol. Try that with any medication. So the nice thing is it's, you know, they're very effective and you don't have that, those side effects. So talking about BPC, so it stands for Body Protection Compound 157. How does that work?

It's kind of interesting that it's derived from the Yumex stomach acid, the Body Protection Compound. It's part of the mechanism they still aren't really sure of. They always kind of put that in there, but they know now in terms of that what it does on certain things. We know that it decreases a lot of the inflammatory chemicals in the body, the leukotrienes, the thromboxanes that cause inflammation. We know that it works on muscles, tendons, and ligaments to help heal. It helps produce collagen. It helps increase growth hormone. We know that it helps to heal stomach and gut ulcers and ulcers in the cornea. So that's what we know. It also works on serotonin, dopamine to help with certain issues with the brain and other issues. So we know some of the mechanisms. Some of the mechanisms, they're still not— it's one of those ones where it's still not completely felt out. But those are things that we kind of know how it works. And a lot of that applies to sports and gut health, which is where it's kind of got its start.

Yeah. And I think it's interesting how they've really been around for a long time. And it's trying to elucidate the exact mechanism because they have multiple mechanisms called pleiotropic, where they basically have a cascade of effects, which I really think adds to the safety because you're doing a bunch of things, modulating a bunch of different things. So medications do one thing, turn this one thing off. And, uh, yeah, so that's what we find. It's just, you look at the studies, are so, so safe. Um, and what, what do you generally, uh, sounds like you use it for a lot of things. Uh, if you can name a few things that you use it for.

I mean, the main things I use it for are, I mean, my— I do a lot of gut patients. I do a lot of SIBOs, which is small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. I do a lot of like ulcerative colitis and Crohn's. And then I do a lot of— that's my one go-to. And then sport injuries, I'll either have them do it by doing the injections or the creams or the pills, or I will locally actually inject either on its own or with other substances into their knee or their shoulder. That was a little more initially. Now the studies show that may not be as necessary. I still do it to really get that local effect, especially my high-end athletes who may have a— may have had a competition or whether we really wanted to get them back as quickly as possible.

Gotcha. And yeah, that's the nice thing is studies show that, you know, taking it orally actually is equal potent to injection, um, one of the, one of the few, um, which makes it so much easier. Um, and you treat athletes. Is it, is it a banned substance?

BPCU, as of now, is one of the few of the, in the peptide family that's not banned. Which, as far as I know— and they always update it, um, so it's not banned yet. A lot of the other ones are, so in terms of peptide anti-inflammatory ones, as far as I know. So it's still used. It's great. Um, again, it's good. It's great because it plays well with other things that we can still use as well. So that's— it's great for anybody from an Olympic athlete down to the weekend warrior.

Yeah, I mean, it's— and that's, I think, a problem. It's nice that, you know, helps people recover, um, and then they want to ban it, and then it gets a bad name, and it kills it for so many people, you know. And they associate with, oh, it must be, you know, it must be a steroid. And, uh, it's the far— that it actually protects you from the side effects of steroids and things like that. So what, what injuries do you typically see? What, what do you use it on?

In terms of injuries, I use it on a— like I said, it's my go-to really. I love it in the shoulder. I mean, I've seen a lot of patients with either rotator cuff issues, small tears, partial tears of the rotator cuff, and labral tears. I've had some patients who now it's been long enough where they had an MRI before we started and now afterwards where we've seen recovery and the traditional orthopedics are like, "What are you doing?" And they're amazed. Then we have to try to explain to them and work backwards. And then also I use it either superficially on a lot of back issues, like really tough back issues, patients who can't have surgery or don't— obviously just really aren't surgical candidates. I do that mixed with some other substances, and it works incredibly well. And the other spot that I usually will use it on sports-wise is some like patellar tendonitis, which is in the knee. And I'll do some injections in the knee as well. That's kind of where I've used— I've used it for everything from patella, from Achilles tendonitis to trapped inflammation in the trapezius. But those are kind of like the core ones that are my go-tos.

And so what do the orthopedic surgeons say after? Because they always want to do surgery. And I had Lyme, which really— cause a lot of degeneration of connective tissue, and they want to do, you know, hip replacements. My rotator cuff was just shredded, all the tendons. And it was funny, and I asked him, uh, I went in and got the chief of the group above us, and I just said, you know, what do you think of peptides and even PRP and, you know, stem cells? And he goes, the studies show they don't work. And I'm like, Okay, well, I have 100 in my bag here that show that they work. And what do they say when, when they recommend surgery and the patient comes back and they don't need surgery anymore?

Um, they're pretty amazed. I mean, again, they're, they're most— a lot of surgeons are surgery first, second, and third. Um, so they're a little bit surprised. Um, initially they're like, oh, this is just placebo, or Miraculously, medically healed. Yes, it's short-term, but then when you could— they sometimes will see the, the change on the x-ray— on x-rays, on the CAT scans or MRIs, they're like, okay. Then they buy in, um, they buy in more and more. Orthos are actually— orthopedists are— if you show them again, you can prove it's A to B easier. Same with the stomach things. If you can show an ulcer healing, it's still A to B. It's not certain other cases, it's hard to prove what's actually causing it. This is A to B where you look at the X-ray, look at the colonoscopy, and you can kind of see, wow, that healed in 6 months. This stuff must work, which is also cool.

Has any of them adopted using the peptides after seeing your results?

A few have. I'm in Manhattan, which is very, very old school. It's a very old boy network where unless it's been proven for 20— those theories that it takes 20 years for something to become into the medical literature.

Yeah, yeah.

That's Manhattan. But there are some that are using it now. As part of the— they'll mix it with their PRP. I know some will put it if they do an ACL or some type of surgery. Some of the back surgeons are using it now. So it's getting in the last year to 18 months, it's become into some of the repertoires, but it's not commonly used.

Yeah, it's kind of like the gastroenterologists are now discovering probiotics, you know.

Exactly.

But, you know, I found interesting, and now I'm used to it, but, you know, doing this for 15, 20 years, that, you know, a doctor will have a patient for 10 years, it can't get better, you get them better, and the patient's a great relationship with the doctor and goes back and tells them. I would think the doctor would say, this is awesome, let me, let me call him and find out what he did. I found out off, you know, 90% of time, at least where I'm in Southern California, they're mad. They're like, this is ridiculous, I won't see you anymore, and let you— if you stop, it's just like Wow, you know, it's, uh, you know, kind of eye-opening.

It can happen. I mean, I haven't had that type of— maybe once. I don't get that much of a response in terms of they just happen for the patient. But I could see— I've seen it once or twice and it gets, it gets kind of nasty.

Yeah, they're not like, hey, you're taking away all my income, my surgeries.

Yeah, no, it's— it— there's— the surgeons are losing their step, like between PRP, stem cell, exosomes, all that stuff coming down the pike. They, uh, they have to learn to adopt some new stuff.

You know, it is true. And I'm amazed seeing like cardiovascular surgeons and neurosurgeons like doing regenerative medicine, you know, uh, which you're like, wow, uh, I think that that's incredible. And, you know, they see that, hey, I don't feel good at what I'm doing. I want to, you know, treat patients. It's so much safer. You know, people think, oh, I'm gonna do the surgery, it's gonna be fine. So many, you know, potential risks of side effects and recovery that no one mentioned it's part of the potential side effects, you know. Um, that's great. Do you combine the peptides, um, with— do you use multiple peptides in a patient? Um, all the time.

Like, I have paid— I, I love to. It's a question I always tell my patient. The first thing I tell my patients is You guys, a lot of cases they can dictate how fast we want to go. I could say, look, I can put— I have a couple patients on double-digit peptides at one time. They're used to doing the creams and the pills and the injections and they have it and they don't care. I have some patients who only want to do one or two. That's the first thing they have to understand going in, that it's every day or 5 days out of 7 days. So it's commitment. It's not a one-shot deal, no pun intended, where they do it once or twice and they're done. When I do do it, I mean, now it's kind of become known as the Wolverine stack, which is for recovery, which is BPC, TB4— some people know it as TB500— and some of the growth hormone ones, which is this, uh, the CJC and ipamorelin or Sermorelin, uh, that works really well for healing, especially back, rotator cuff, Achilles tendonitis. Um, if you're dealing with the gut, then you, um, some of those similar ones. I will add kind of what we talked about, either LL-37 will be maybe involved in some cases, or KPV, which is a new one that just came, a derivative out there that I'm starting to fall in love with. I'm sure you guys will talk about throughout the summit, um, because it has so many—

are you using that oral or how are you using that?

Which one, the KPV?

Yeah.

Um, I was using it oral. Now it's, it's harder to find than— I don't know what— never analogy you want to use at this point. Um, I can't find it, so now I'm having patients use the injectables. Um, but the pills are supposedly coming back, so I love the pills. The pills were— the pills and the cream were most perfect thing ever. I mean, that was become one of my favorite that was out there.

And yeah, let me— what did you find with that? So KPV is a small tripeptide fragment of alpha melanocyte stimulating hormone. So it's a piece of like melanotan-2, which will basically— it's called like the Barbie doll peptide. It's like you get tan, you lose weight, um, uh, and you increase libido. It's like, hey, you know, great. Um, do you use it for that? Do you use Melanotan, just out of curiosity?

I do a little bit. Um, I just— I want— I think I don't— I use it a little bit. I use it more for weight loss on my athletes than I do for the tan. I had one patient ask for the tanning. Um, I just warn them, it's not like you can't always die— it's not like you can go to a 2. Sometimes you may go to a 7. With a tan, you can't control it. I've had patients not like that.

Yeah, no, yeah, just, um, and the problem is, I think, and I found it myself, like, I used it when it kind of first came out, you know, the dosing. I'm like, this isn't working, kept using more. I looked like a strange Jamaican. I got so dark. And I think older people kind of, you know, some age spots can come out and things like that. And I think it's kind of ideal for you know, some younger, younger people. But that alpha melanocyte stimulating hormone, you know, so it increases melanocytes, but it also is very anti-inflammatory and very restorative, and that's why you use it. The nice thing with KPV, it doesn't have any of the tanning properties. So that's why I think you can use it liberally. And there's so many things, it's like that you, uh, I think that you can't believe, like, hey, I got another tool in the toolbox, and so many doctors don't know about it. And you said you use— how many peptides are you using?

Um, there's probably about 30. I mean, there's 30 to do, and then again, you have ones like RG3. I mean, RG3 is not a traditional peptide, but it's there. And little— it's not TREXOM, which is kind of not a cousin, but it's always kind of always involved there. So there's ones that I always kind of mix and match. And then the nootropics are their own family of stuff. They're always kind of thrown in too.

So yeah, and the nootropics, so, uh, you know, improving, uh, brain function and, and things like that. So it sounds like you do a wide range of, of things with all the peptides. Um, uh, what, what is your, uh, your basic favorite thing to use, uh, BPC for, BPC-157?

Um, I actually, I mean, I like the sports stuff because that was my first love. I was always doing some sports stuff because I was working, initially worked in a small town and there wasn't really a good sports medicine doctor, so I was it. But now I always— even Manhattan, I like the guts, the gut healing the best, just because it's amazing to me. I'm in Manhattan, but I have patients come to me with ulcerative colitis, Crohn's, and SIBO, and they've been suffering for years. We get them on a reg— a combination regimen, and in 2 or 3 months they're like, wow, I'm— I don't have pain, I can come off my Remicade, I can live a normal life, I don't have to be taking the 6 different medicines. And that is such a light bulb— not a light bulb moment, but it's such a great feeling and such quickly produced that, wow, these people have been suffering for so long and like that things kind of change for them. So that's why I really— that's like the doctor moment right there where you're like, little angels come out and start singing, um, more than anything else. Because I think it's—

I mean, isn't it amazing? I mean, because these people generally, you know, with, let's say, ulcerative colitis, you know, the inflammatory bowel disease. I mean, they've been to— generally been to, you know, standard experts, uh, recommend, you know, they basically go down the algorithm, chemo, and they say, okay, we got to remove your colon. And they come to you and they're— then they get better. Is that what you're saying?

They get a lot better. I mean, it's been proven now. Like I said, I've had several patients get colonoscopies 6 months or a year later now who are doing BPC, but even by itself, and they say the ulcers are diminished or gone. Their ulcers, the inflammation is diminished, and again, like, they're coming off their meds or their meds have been diminished. So it's, it's, it's been proven so many times.

So, I mean, and you just think how you just change that person's life, you know, uh, where they could have been having to have a colostomy bag forever. Exactly. That's that, that That's just incredible. And, and so for— let's talk about the sports medicine. What, what typically is your strategy and protocol for, let's say, someone comes in with a knee or a shoulder? Do you immediately go to peptides? Do you do other things first? Do you use multiple modalities? What, what is your kind of strategy for that? That?

It's all the— in most cases, all the above. Most of the patients who are seeing me have already seen at least their primary and sports medicine, ortho, when they're coming to see me. So I'm kind of there to fine-tune things and also look at everything. So I do a lot of— as you mentioned, I do manipulation. I do a lot of hands-on things. So what I'm looking at is the peptide is the acute. It's a great way to stop things short-term. But also, if they have poor range of motion, if they're a pitcher or just are lifting a lot, and you don't fix the range of motion in the shoulder, the strength in the shoulder, adjust the joints, make sure things are moving the right way, then they're going to be back 3 months, 6 months down the road with the same issue because you're just kind of doing the same thing and just causing the same problem. So I work with— I say, look, the BBC or the TB-500, that's going to kind of calm things down for you. And now we've got to work on preventing this from happening again, which we do. I do a lot of hands-on. I work with great physical therapists and specific fitness trainers who— who can kind of work on their everything from their range of motion to I adjust them, make sure that the fascia is all lined up, and then when we're done with the BPC-TB 500 CJC treatment, I don't have to see anything. I'm like, look, if I don't see you back again for another 2 years, that's my goal. I don't want you back. So that's the goal. If we give them the full package, they can not only— we're just treating the acute problem, we're making sure they don't come back in again. So that's where, that's where it's great. That's the way it should be done. This is not just, okay, here's your shot and we'll just keep doing this every 3 or 6 months. That kind of is nonsensical to me.

Gotcha, gotcha. And you find— I always love it when you're treating one thing and they go, oh, by the way, this other thing I never mentioned went away, you know.

Um, exactly, yeah.

Which is kind of interesting. How, um, how quick do the peptides generally work?

I've seen work as quickly as 10 days, week to 10 days depending. And I have some patients who may take up to 2 months. For it to really kick in. It depends on how good they are taking it and how severe the injury is, their immune system, all of the above. I mean, I tell patients a lot of times it may take 6 weeks to 2 months. You also got to play with the dose. I mean, I, I'm a little more aggressive than most, um, especially with BPC, because like we said, BPC, the dose is— we haven't really seen any side effects. I'd push it harder than what the suggested dose is sometimes, um, compared to some of the other ones that are out there. But it's usually anywhere between like 10 days to 2 months depending on the whole package.

And so when you say you use more in general, do you, um, how, how fast do you move up on the dose? And do you add different peptides? You increase the BPC? What is your maximum dose or how fast do you change doses?

I mean, usually it's going to be about 2 or 3 weeks. Um, I'll up it. I mean, again, it also depends. I mean, I have people who had a race in a week and a half and I'll, I'll that case, I'll up it really quickly. I'll say, look, take this for a day or two or three days. If it's not working, double. I mean, I'll go up to 1,000 milligrams of my grams on the, uh, BPC. Um, I'll even go a little higher than that depending if you can get somebody to compound it that way for you. But I do really short and short bursts. Um, so that's what I tend to do. And somebody who's in my 75-year-old osteoarthritis patient, I usually wait a month, a month to 6 weeks. It depends who you're dealing with, but I've done it as quickly as a week to 10 days. I've switched, I've raised the dose because they need— we need— I needed to do, and it just wasn't working. I mean, if it doesn't work, I might as well go up with it. There's no point in me just sitting there having the patient wait. For certain, again, for my— more for my younger athletic patients than anything else.

Yeah, I mean, I like that, and I'm very ADD too. I'm like, I don't want to wait. The nice thing is I think the side effects are so low you can, you know, change the dose very very quickly. And what percent of patients would you say, patient, a patient I come in and say, okay, I have, you know, basically, you know, torn rotator cuff and they said I need surgery. What's the chance that this is going to help?

I would honestly, I tell patients 70-80%. I mean, I've seen almost nobody and that doesn't get help if you especially go up to the, what I call the Wolverine pack, and are doing something else with it. I've had maybe 1 or 2 patients that didn't get pain improvement and also potentially improvement on the MRI. It may have been just too far gone or they have some other issue where the pain is just continuing. But I tell patients 70-80% that they're going to get some improvement, if not more.

Wow. That's— Like almost, it's really unheard of, you know, in medicine, 70, 80%. I mean, you look at studies and medications, you know, they get approved when they have a 4% improvement over placebo. You know, it's crazy. And these are often people who said they need surgery and you're doing 70, 80%, you know, no one guarantees anything, but that's what you're seeing.

Oh yeah, yeah, definitely.

Yeah. And, uh, well, what's the patient's response usually?

They, they're my new best friend. Uh, like I said, they're the, they're, they're your best advertising. Um, so no, I mean, they love you because I'm an athlete, I'm a runner, all my knees hurt me already at my age. I'm going to keep running. They're going to keep— if they have bad shoulder, they're going to keep going to gym. They love the fact they go back to their life, they can go back to their passion. Which keeps them going. And they love— that's what makes it even better. It's like they're a runner, or they want to go do CrossFit, or they want to do whatever. They get back. That's what makes it even sweeter when they feel better really quickly, because they, they'll never forget you. It's not like you just treated their sore throat or something. This is their passion, their livelihood, their, their fun.

Yeah, so, so really, it's like, especially with these athletes, is that not being able to do that, it's like their passion, they live for it, and you're able to allow them to do that again. I imagine you get some good Christmas gifts.

You get some good Christmas gifts, uh, yeah, I get between the Christmas gifts, the referrals, and, uh, it's, it's nice to— yeah, it's nice to be on their good side. I'm not going to argue that at all.

That's nice. I think it kind of makes it worth it, right? You know?

Yeah, it's doubly worth it.

That, that's wonderful. I just love to hear that. Um, you mentioned the gut, and tell me what your thought is, how the gut plays a role and BPC plays a role in the gut with, you know, other systems in the body.

Okay, that's a long question. That's how to summarize that there.

Um, yeah, um, a lot of, a lot of info in that one.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, the main thing is I mean, it's become a pretty common slogan at this point. I mean, your gut's 70% of the immune system. So if anybody— if you can work on healing the gut with BPC or whatever, combined with whatever your regimen is, that's going to help. If there's any type of autoimmune issue, we know about the gut-brain connection, that that's going to help in terms of— I mean, it's going to help any person, athlete, or chronic Lyme patient. It's going to help them with focus or brain fog or energy or all the above. So healing the gut's going to help that. It helps with your neurotransmitters, so it's going to help their mood. And we know patients who have Their mood, their pain may diminish. They're going to be better, more healthy to begin with. So just by fixing the gut, I mean, we know there's— I mean, everything else in terms of where the hormones are produced and metabolism, and they get— if the gut's injured, they're going to gain weight, which causes inflammation, other issues. So the gut is pretty much— the gut and the brain and the heart are kind of the cores to all medicine, tradition and alternative regenerative medicine. We kind of knew that going in. It's just becoming more and more proven when you fix one thing, like I said, when you fix their gut, you're fixing a lot of other stuff too for them, making life a lot easier.

Right, right. And it's amazing the studies that are coming out on that. Now, let's say I come in and I twisted my knee. Do you talk to them about their gut? Or, you know, are they looking at you like, Doc, I came for my knee, what are you talking about my gut for?

I mention it. Again, that's where you have to kind of gauge your patient a little bit too. I mean, I have patients who come in with 10 pages of literature and they know all this stuff. They're on Reddit and they know what they want. And then I can have a conversation with them. I have other patients who are no, like they're very serious and they're like, no, I just want to fix my knee. I don't, some of them, they may not totally buy into everything else. And then you kind of just drop it in here and there, especially if they, 'Hey, so you feel bloated?' or 'Hey, are you having any type of abdominal symptoms?' Maybe related. You got to kind of be more subtle about it because otherwise they're just going to think that you're just making stuff up. But I definitely try to get it in there most of the time. You got— medicine is an art too. They always say that. And you got to learn every patient's not the same.

That is so true. I didn't mean to cut you off there. Yeah, I just— it's, it's amazing. And, and how many symptoms patients have. And let's say someone comes in with an— an athlete comes in with an athletic injury. How often do you end up like mentioning some things and taking over their care for everything else and becoming their physician?

A lot of time I do now, especially with everything that's kind of coming out. I mean, again, things like that, things that the tools I had 10 years ago or even 5 years ago compared to what's out there now is just totally changed. So now a lot of times they want to know about their hormones, they want to know about the recovery, they want to know about how they're— again, like how their gut health or how their brain health can get affected, or even their blood pressure, their sugar, or their wearable now. So it's all become integrated more where it's not just, okay, we check, we did your test once a year, your LDL is fine, I don't need to see you again. Medicine now has become much more comprehensive. The patient now, which we're seeing it changes The patient is now becoming much— these patients, my patients, are much more proactive about their health than some of their doctors are. So they mostly know what they want. They— and that we— I just— I'm like, I tell them, I'm the traffic cop. I can, I can dig as deep as you want to, and like I said, it depends, and get you where you want to be very easily. And then you kind of like— that also, again, I let the patient kind of guide me a little bit a lot of times, and it works out better because if they feel they're the ones guiding you they're going to buy in a lot quicker. And a lot of this is always about buying. If they're not going to do what you tell them to do, you're wasting the 60 minutes with them.

I think it's really essential nowadays that patients take an active role in their care. And some friends who see me, I refuse because they don't care to know what they're on. I'm like, I can't treat you like that, you know. And but I think too, you know, the way kind of medicine has gone where everything's so compartmentalized. Okay, you know, you mentioned all these things that, you know, someone comes with a knee and they have, you know, they're gonna have some gut issues, brain, high cholesterol, where they'd have to see a cardiologist, a gastroenterologist, you know, orthopedist, and but they go to one source who can actually look at everything and how it all relates. And it does, you know, these are not separate systems. And I think that's so powerful. And I'm glad that patients seem to be realizing that finally.

Oh yeah, it's getting— at least on the East Coast here it is. And it's great. And it's so much— it makes life easier. And it's good for the patients, that that's the way they need to take care of themselves for the long run.

So you're kind of the one-stop shop?

As much as I can be, yes. The good thing is if you get too busy, then you kind of— you do what you can, and then you have other people to help you out. But yeah. I do as much as I can for them. And then I said I have helpers and I have other doctors in the area. I mean, that's a good thing about Manhattan. There's literally a doctor every block. So if I, hey, I can do all these things with you and I know so-and-so is really good and I just have them help me out.

That's good. That's the way it should be. It seems now it's kind of like the so-called, I don't even know what to call myself. I'd like to hear what you like, how do you describe what you do? Like, the standard doctors don't like the integrative doctors, or they call them alternative, and there's, and there's no, you know, oh, that's quackery, whatever. And, you know, with my story, which I told, that, you know, I would never have gone. It's ingrained in medical school that alternative medicine means no evidence-based. And, um, and it's amazing that you know, I hate that term, and but I don't know why, you know, integrative functional medicine doctor, whatever, is it's so much more evidence-based than standard medicine, you know, and I just feel like, you know, so many doctors are kind of like standard doctors doing what they've been doing in residency, and you know, don't confuse me with the facts, and but the system is made like that. I mean, they're not bad people, It's the system's not going to allow them to spend more time with the patient. They don't get paid more. They're already, you know, busting their butt to see a patient every 8 minutes or whatever it is. So, um, uh, it's, uh, I think, you know, things are changing. And I think with, with all the COVID-19 and the telemedicine, I think it's going to really, you know, change medicine even more. Um, and, um Like, what else do you use peptides for in terms of like anti-aging or weight, or what, what else do you, um, uh, you, uh, you use peptides for? So you basically kind of— for— you'll see most anything, it sounds like.

Or, I mean, I think my second big one is besides gut is brain. I mean, doing, uh, that's where I use a lot for, again, for all the patients I brought up before Weight loss, weight loss I like as an add-on. They're great. I mean, a lot of the couple of the ones that I used to use right now are very hard to find, so that's made me kind of pivot a little bit away from them in terms of weight. Like you said, the MT2, the melanotan 2, is good for weight to a certain extent, but again, that's where you kind of use the cousins like liraglutide, which is a prescription medication I use a lot, helped patients with weight loss, or my athletes. I use it a lot for, um, what's the other ones I use it for? But, and I use it a lot for autoimmune. I have a lot of autoimmune patients who come to me like Hashimoto's and rheumatoid arthritis, which I'm treating their pain complaint, trying to keep their pain controlled. And I'll use the TA-1 or thymosin alpha-1 as, um, to calm their immune system down. I usually will mix that with low-dose naltrexone, and then that really gives them a one-two punch. We're treating their acute pain and then we can calm things down by treating their gut with either the BPC or one of the other ones and treating their immune systems. You're getting acute and then treating the long-term. And again, you can kind of get them off their medications. That's kind of one of the other ones I use. Um, and the other big one now has gotten more and more popular, of course, is the ones for erectile dysfunction and sexual dysfunction that are coming down the pike too. Um, that's the PT-141 and some of the ones that now— Caspentin for testosterone, things like that, which are kind of getting more and more press. Suzanne Somers did a big thing on it last year. I just had a book come out or something that a lot of patients started asking me about it.

Oh, it's interesting how the celebrities, uh, uh, really can, can drive things and, and, and drive and drive awareness. Um, and do you have any, like, cases that you can talk about, or Um, where, of course, don't say any names, but, you know, just kind of how the process went. Sure.

I mean, the two that I can really allude to, I kind of hinted at before. I had a patient who had, um, big CrossFit guy, 240, has been lifting for 20 years, 5, 6 days a week, had torn labrums, couldn't even lift his arm up above his head, probably couldn't carry a 2-pound bag. Um, we put him on the Wolverine stack, which is the BPC, the TB-500, and the CJC. And we also—

So let me just kind of go back. So he was probably knowledgeable about all this integrative medicine stuff. He had a rotator cuff problem, poor range of motion. Okay. And did he go to the orthopedist?

Yeah, they were telling me— they were either telling me they wanted to do surgery on both his shoulders, and they told me he'd probably be out of commission potentially for 6 months or so, which he was didn't really want. He also is a big part of an exercise company, which would affect things too. So we have a mutual friend who sent him to me, and within 2 months he's like, wow, the pain is finished, diminished, I'm back in the gym. He's not exactly where he was before, but he's getting close. And I used one with him which we really didn't talk about, which is GHK copper, which locally with the cream I find is a nice little add-on. I found a perfect one for something like a rotator cuff, but it's a nice little add-on. And the other one I have, like I said, a patient who had really bad ulcerative colitis, had just had her colonoscopy done with her gastro— gastroenterologist. 6 months later, just on BPC, had another colonoscopy. We already knew her pain was diminishing, her meds— she's like, I don't even take my— like, I didn't like to take my meds anymore. They did the scope again, and I think the 2 were gone, 1 was like a third of the size. And that's where the gastro was like, what in the world is— he was mystified.

Well, I, I, again, I, I just think we have some ultra-class patients. And it's like this 8-year-old girl's gonna get a, you know, basically colon removed and, uh, came in, kind of didn't believe in, in the stuff, and, uh, totally fine now, you know. And I just think, uh, you know, how many lives you've changed with with the peptides. And do you think— so you, uh, we use them after the acute problem. Do you think they're good for anti-aging in general? Should everyone be on these peptides?

I think they should. I think, I mean, there's the combination of the anti-aging protocols, things like Epitalon and Thymulin and MOTC, and you mean— I'm sure you'll be talking about throughout the summit that have their their own protocol. And then you get into the whole senescent cell protocols with things like rapamycin and NAD or NMN, which are kind of— again, they're, they're always involved with the peptides, but they're not actually peptides. Um, with, again, thymosin alpha 1 comes in and metformin and all those things. So I take it myself. I have my patients who— those are, those are my clients more that are on the 10, 11, 12 peptides. And a lot of them will come to me and say, look, I want to be on this protocol. I know that they're expensive. I know that's going to be 10, 11 needles for a couple weeks. I don't care.

And now that they work with needles, do you have them do separate shots of each peptide, or do you combine them into one syringe?

Um, I'm still old school with that. There's certain ones I combine, a lot of them I don't, because I don't know, I haven't seen that many studies saying that you can combine certain ones. So again, unfortunately, they're not inexpensive. Some of them are not inexpensive, so I'd rather most— I'd give them the shots. I mean, some of them, they're doing nasal spray anyway, so they don't care, but most of them are doing separate shots. Yeah, yeah.

So yeah, there's not a lot of studies showing, you know, and— but it's also interesting where, uh, you know, people say this is FDA approved, and you know, which— they won't— don't get me started with, with, with all that. But you have, you know, there's no double-blind placebo-controlled studies showing someone on a statin and 4 different meds, you know, what does that do to their life? And, you know, really how it, you know, just destroys their mitochondria and increased risk for diabetes and all these things. And, uh, uh, you know, I think it's, uh, amazing that there are so many studies and people look to the FDA approval, which more and more I'm just so disappointed with. And even things that, you know, getting something published in a major medical journal, if it's anything outside the realm of, you know, Big Pharma, it's, it's difficult. And despite that, I think things are moving so fast in this so-called integrative, alternative— again, I hate that term— functional medicine, whatever you want to call it, space where, as you mentioned, you know, study in Annals of Internal Medicine showed it takes on average 17 years for a proven, um, new therapy to get accepted to mainstream medicine. And, you know, it's kind of jokes like, you know, how do you hide something from an endocrinologist? You know, put it in their journal. But, uh, and, and it's, it's amazing, the stuff I, I think that is going on in this integrated space and how fast it's moving and, uh, to, to help patients, you know.

Yeah, I mean, I mean, that's one of the silver linings of the COVID stuff is that things that people really know about are being studied for COVID and they're coming out in other studies, like things like hyperbaric and ozone and even peptides are being used and checked out. So I think that's going to help push things forward because people are like, they want everything now integrated. They hear about IV vitamin C, they hear about peptides, they want to be on thymosin alpha-1. That's driving it even more. They're like, the traditional stuff, there's nothing traditional for it that's going to help me really right now. This stuff is going to help. Vitamin C and all this stuff is now— vitamin D has obviously come to the fore. So it's pushing people even more to this, which I think is one of the unfortunate silver— or fortunate silver linings.

And I don't want to get too into this, could get a little political, but it, it's scary how all these basic therapies where studies show they work and they're so safe— I mean, you know, vitamin D, well, high-dose vitamin C, zinc, ozone, IVIG, heparin— that if you put that on the internet, you get a letter from the Federal Trade Commission saying you can't say that about treating COVID, which is nuts because we got one for basically saying here's some integrative therapies and with references, you know. So I think I'm a little worried, certainly a little worried, scared about the politics of medicine and how things are being dominated and suppressed. But I think that talk is for another day.

Exactly, I agree.

But yeah, but I think about it all the time. But any last things you want to say about BBC157 or peptides in general or how it would change your practice or anything?

Sure, no, I mean, I think people, if One, that peptides are definitely going to be part of the future of medicine, so definitely check them out. Secondly is that BPC is— gut should be— if you're concerned about anything, it should definitely be your Gatewink. They hit so many different parts of your health, like we talked about, from your eyes to your gut to your muscles to your joints. So it's so safe, so easy to use. We know that you can take it orally, cream, you can take it rectally. So if this is your entrée into peptides or the first time you've been hearing about them, this is the place to start because it's going to help you. You're going to feel better. It's like, oh, this one works, so let me see what else I can do with them now. So I think definitely check it out, learn about them. You can learn about more peptides throughout the summit, I'm sure.

And yeah, it's interesting, a, a doctor, uh, walked up and we were talking about BBC-157, and you know it's available as a supplement now.

Yeah, yeah.

Uh, she came up and just said it makes everything else work better, you know. Uh, have you found that?

Yes, I have. When I take it, my patients will tell me the same thing. It's, it's becoming more and more ingrained as a part of their general health.

And if, let's just say you're, uh, giving advice to other doctors that are listening to this, uh, BPC-157, you say good, that's the place to start, or how would they best get, uh, started using peptides?

Um, the best place is, I mean, the is definitely now, I mean, you definitely want to take a course. I mean, there's, there's so many out there now. Find the good organization, A4M or AMG, that are really good about getting the courses to get your framework of just how to use them, how to interplay them, how to interplay them with other things you may use in your practice. And then, and just start with a couple. It's like juggling. You got to start with a couple, learn how to use them, learn where they're usable. If you try to learn 20 or 30 at a time that are the ones that are all out there, and there's literally every week there's some new one out in a Reddit group or Facebook that you can say, oh, let me try this one. It just doesn't work. It's just, you need to understand how to use them. It's just like any other medicine. We need to know how it works, how to use them, what patients not to use them with. So get a, get a good foothold Get a course, start with whatever your specialty is, and then it'll kind of snowball from there and you'll get patients who love you, you'll get more patients into your practice.

And let's say from the patient side, okay, I'm a patient, I have, you know, problem X, I want to look into peptides, my doctor, my Kaiser says never heard of them. What do I do?

What do you do? I mean, this is one of the cases where Dr. Google will work. In terms of finding a doctor who does peptides, again, also there's a couple organizations. I know A4M and International Peptide Society will link you with a doctor in your area. And there's also a bunch of doctors now who will treat you over telemedicine, um, within their scope to help you kind of at least guide you with them. And then also, and there's actually some good groups that can at least give you a guide of who to go see depending on what you're looking to do, because it's like anything else in medicine There's some people who just do the sports ones, there's some people who just do the skin ones, and they may not know anything about doing the autoimmune one. So you want to make sure you know somebody who— you're getting somebody who knows it's in their wheelhouse. And don't try to self-dose everything. I see plenty of patients come in, they're on the wrong dose, they're combining 5 things. You need to take a break with some of them. The stacks are insane. And this is not always a do-it-yourself type thing. That's my first thing I would always say. No, don't always do it yourself.

Yeah, and you know, it's Dr. Google, and hey, there's great information online. There's also just, you know, misinformation, you know, so much, you know, kind of scary stuff out there. And I tell patients, you know, go read everything. And I also hear like a lot of, seems like, standard doctors are like, stop reading the internet. You know, and because there's, you know, they don't like the information. But, you know, what I'll say is that read everything and come and talk to me. I'll tell you what's right or wrong and defend the treatments. I just think these other doctors can't defend their treatments because they don't know, you know, all these things. But I think, um, would you say is your favorite patient the educated patient that, uh, really knows about these things and and has heard about peptides and can, you know, really question you on, hey, why, you know, why are you giving me this? What about this? What about this?

My favorite patient is a knowledgeable patient who is willing to have a conversation. There's some people who are, I heard this on such and such, I'm not gonna name names, such and such podcast, I have to take this dose for this period of time.

Oh yeah.

And then they won't yield on it. But most of my educated patients will have one, just like you said, have a conversation like a tennis match. And say, what do you think about this? I heard this. And they're very educated. They have studies, they have PubMed stuff. And that's fine. I love that because it makes things easier. It's not like you're speaking to them in a foreign language. But they can't— patients are just adamant, I must have this. And then you're like, OK, I— again, it's an art where you kind of learn how to play that game too.

Yeah. You know, I think it's totally true. And, you know, if they hear it somewhere or read it, it has to be true, which isn't true. And I think too, my doctor's adamant that they should not do this. And they found, you know, less a doctor knows, the more adamant— the more adamant they are, the less they know. Um, because I found the more I learn, the more I learn I don't know, you know. Um, but, uh, it sounds like peptides have changed your practice and changed many of your patients' life, uh, lives. And, uh, that's, that's just a wonderful thing to hear.

No, they've been great, and I, I'm so looking forward to see what the future holds with sports and regenerative medicine.

Well, great. Uh, thank you for, uh, spending the time with us here on the Peptide Summit. Uh, some great information for patients, and, um, I really, really enjoyed it and learned a lot of new, uh, new information. Which I'm sure everyone will find, uh, very useful. So I, I thank you for that, and, uh, we really appreciate you, uh, being on.

Thanks for having me. It was a good time. Great to talk peptides.

Great, great. Thanks so much.

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