Secrets to Fatigue, Brain Fog, Mood Disorders, Chronic Pain

I always say retraining the immune system is like training a 3-year-old to pick up their stuff. You know, it's gonna take a really long time to get those T-cells to a place where they can be tolerant to things for a long time. And one of the other problems is you can upset that tolerance. You know, if you get a chronic viral or an acute virus, a lot of times that can undo that treatment and you have to get a booster. So usually what I tell patients is this is probably going to help you, but I want you to give it a year before you're willing to say I'm not going to do it anymore or this therapy sucks.

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Hello, this is Dr. Kent Holtorf with another episode of the Peptide Summit. Today we welcome Dr. Christopher Wakely, and he's, he's speaking about secrets to to fatigue, brain fog, insomnia, mood disorders, and chronic pain. So excited to hear about how to solve those problems, uh, and so many patients are suffering and doctors just can't put it together. So looking forward to this hour, and I want to say thank you so much to Christopher for being on.

Appreciate how you're—

I mean, it's busy up there in Washington. Any riots or anything going on up there?

Not in my little neighborhood, but yeah, Seattle's a little bit of a mess.

Yeah, it's like, well, you know, the news, we always see the worst, right? But yeah, just a little bit about Christopher. He's born and raised in Maine, and which I think, man, that must be cold. But, uh, and then he moved to Washington where he pursued a doctorate in naturopathic medicine from Bastyr University. Uh, is dedicated to helping patients with complex chronic illness. They've been seeing between 11 and 17 physicians. And that's the week we published our results. We had 7.2 physicians before seeing us, and that's just gotten more and more. So that 11 to 17, I think, is right on. And especially these are vector-borne illness, including Lyme, Babesia, Bartonella, and the list keeps going, you know, basically keeps being added. Pain and environmental medicine. Autism. I'd love to hear a couple of things about your experience with autism. Of course, that's just skyrocketing. There's a wide variety of tools, including homeopathics, antigen therapies, drainage, injections, herbs, peptides, and pharmaceuticals. He's a member of AAEM, ACAM, International Peptide Society. In his spare time, what little there is, he enjoys spending time with his wife and two daughters. Strength training, reading and watching the Boston Red Sox.

So, go Sox!

Awesome. But yeah, I think the World Series is on, was it Game 3 or something?

Yeah.

But yeah, tell me, how did you kind of get into, you know, treating these sick of the sick, these patients that no one can figure out?

You know, in Bastyr, when you're going through naturopathic medical school, you see some complex patients, but you don't see a lot. And in my preceptorships with, which is like an apprenticeship that you do, you know, I worked in Dr. Klinghardt's clinic with Dr. Katie Dahlgren and Dr. Michelle Grindstaff, who I work with now. And man, they were seeing some really sick patients and they were using tools that I had never heard of back then. So I think for me, it's kind of like going to a different plane in medicine and you start to see that, hey, it's not as simple as just giving somebody a B12 shot or glutathione or yeah, diet's not gonna fix these people. They've already tried that. They did that 20 years ago.

Yeah.

So I think the curiosity in me and kind of that endeavor to always be learning more is really what got me into treating patients with complex chronic illness.

Do you regret it?

No. No, because I'm blessed. It's challenging. You know, I mean, you do it too, and it's not easy, but it's not boring. You know, I never go home and say, yeah, today was boring.

It's true. And you think, you know, especially more and more, it's like, okay, you know, one cause, one illness, one treatment, you know, and that whole paradigm is just falling apart. Yeah.

Yeah.

And with standard medicine, the patient is in a box and they get this. And if they're outside the box, the center just kind of gives up, right?

Yeah.

Refer.

Just, you know, refer between specialties.

Yeah. It's just no psych referral.

And they don't believe them.

And I'm sure we had, you know, so many patients like cry the first visit and she says, you believe me? We're like, Of course, you know, and we'll show you on paper that you have all these problems and the doctor says nothing's wrong with me. Yeah. When you don't do the right tests, that's what you're going to find. Right. But when you see these patients, what are some of the first things you think of?

Because I'm a naturopathic physician, my approach is a little bit different. The first thing that I'm always looking for is how are their organs of elimination working? Because they'll come in and they'll tell you right? And I always, I always say to patients, you're coming to me with a full bucket and a clogged spigot. So if you've got stuff coming in your bucket, whether it's aluminum or gluten or stress in the home or whatever, and your spigot's clogged, then you're just gonna keep spilling over and making a mess on the floor. And those are the symptoms that they're coming in and talking about, right? Oh, I have headaches, I've got pain, I've got gut stuff.

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So, I'm looking at the spigot first thing. And, you know, the spigot is the liver, the kidneys, the gut, the brain. Are these things able to detoxify in a sense? So, I'll start there. I'm always looking at immune system because that's a huge, huge thing, especially when you're dealing with patients who have complex chronic illness. I mean, if it was just as simple as treating somebody's Borrelia, which, you know, even standard of care, I mean, you got to have them on antibiotics for like 3 years, and then you've got persister cells, and it doesn't even work.

Look at the relapse rate, you know, 2 to 3 weeks of doxycycline, you drive it into the tissues, and it's like 80% come back. And those are ones that they're even documented, but they come back gradually as, oh, I got migraines now, I got chronic fatigue syndrome, I've got MS. They go, oh, you had Lyme. Or even like, you know, Michael J. Fox and, you know, Parkinson's. And we called, I'm sure so many people did, and said, have you checked for Lyme? Like, oh yeah, he had it and cured it. You know, and it's like, oh, you know, anybody know his doctor saying, oh, that's crazy, you know.

So that should tell a physician, if they're thinking, that should tell them that they need to look at how the immune system is functioning. All of our patients come in, most of 'em are Th2 dominant, or they've completely lost tolerance to things that are like sort of normal. How many people have Epstein-Barr? How many people have HHV-6 antibodies? Right? It's not an AIDS-defining condition. So is it even really an infection? That's when you need to be looking at the immune system, trying to restore some balance and hopefully initiate some tolerance in those cells so that you can kind of live in the world and breathe air.

Yeah.

When you have 5, 6, 7 infections, well, it's the problem that you just happen to get all those infections. Yeah, no, you know, or it's like, you know, I'm sure you've seen the patients that come in with 22 separate diagnoses, right? Like, okay, what's— you are the most unlucky person, or there's some common thing, you know, going on. And what, what tests do you like to do to assess the immune system?

Well, we're always looking at blood work, so we're always looking at CBC, CMP. I run a natural killer cell assay on just about all of my patients. I think that's really important.

And do you do Quest, LabCorp, outside lab?

Usually LabCorp, I mean, we'll, you know, we'll write labs for Quest if that's what is close to the patient or that's what their insurance covers. But typically I like to use LabCorp, especially for that natural killer cell activity test, cuz it's kind of finicky, you know, they have to send it out to Europe and it's gotta be done Monday through Thursday.

And yeah, that's the biggest problem. And just like a, it's, it's disheartening. I'm gonna tell you just a real quick. Story. We sent our media guy, just standard labs. There's LabCorp and Quest right on top of each other. He went and did like, you know, basically CBC, chem panel, insulin, hemoglobin A1C, Quest, LabCorp, which one was on top or whatever, didn't eat in between. One, he was diabetic. The other one, his hemoglobin A1C was 5.2. And so, and that's what—

unreliable.

That, and that's a basic test. And so you get these more complex tests and people hang their hat on any one test, which like, I like to do a lot of tests and paint a picture. Yeah, you can't, well, this test is negative, so, oh, forget that. No, you know, the tests are, you know, they might be very specific in general. If you're positive, you're very likely positive. If you're negative, it doesn't mean much.

Well, I think even just running a CBC, if you're looking at the ratio of neutrophils to lymphocytes, you know, it should be like 60/30, right? And if somebody comes in with a, with a neutrophil level of 74, or they're flip-flopped and their lymphocytes are 60% or something like that, well then you know probably something viral's going on. Or, you know, if the neutrophils are high, probably something bacterial's going on. A platelet count can tell you a lot about their coagulation status. Like, I guess I'm agreeing with you in saying that, yeah, it's nice to have a lot of tests, but in the end, your patient's either gonna be spending money on tests or they're gonna be spending money on treatment. If they've got all these chronic complex issues, I would rather treat empirically and just kind of march about the process and use as limited, limited lab work as possible. Right. I do.

And I, I agree with you and but with a caveat. And one is, I totally agree, is that, you know, most doctors, especially, oh, everything's normal, right? But you look at any of the lowest 2.5%, look at this ratio, right? And glean a lot of information from the basic tests. And some patients, I'll do very little tests, but depends on the patient. Like, a lot of times I feel I have to convince the patient that they have something going on. And because if you don't, then they go back and they go, maybe, okay, I'll take the treatment. Their doctor says, oh, that's ridiculous. You don't have that. Their family members say that. So sometimes I overtest, even though I know what the test is going to come out, or very likely do it, little defensive medicine too, but also so they have bought into it, you know.

I think it's great.

There's medicine and there's medicine.

Yeah.

You know, we always look at thyroid. I always run a heavy metal profile. LabCorp has that test. It's Heavy Metal Profile 2 that looks for mercury, lead, arsenic, and cadmium. That's been really, really useful.

And so, and that's a serum test?

Yep. And, or maybe plasma. I don't know.

Yeah.

So is, how sensitive have you found that? Because, you know, generally that's pretty damn high for those to come up.

Yeah. Well, you know, it's interesting. I have these patients who live on the western seaboard, you know, the Gulf side of Florida, and they live really close to a golf course, and their arsenic levels always come back elevated, and their cadmium levels are high too. And, you know, they're using a ton of fertilizers that have a lot of those metals in there. And it, that's been pretty consistent. I would say there's a lot of times where I'll get blood lead levels back that are, you know, somewhere between 2 and 8, which, you know, that's not 40, but yes, it means something. I mean, you get a blood lead level of 2 and you know that you're going to be hanging on to, you know, 40% of that. It's going to go to the bones or the brain or the liver. Over time, that's going to become an issue.

Yeah.

And that's not where it is. And you're finding all that, right?

Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's huge. And we find mercury, you know, sometimes, you know, people eating sushi. And yeah, it is. And it's like you could spend all your money on tests, or— and so many things are so common, you know. How many people have no heavy metal issue, you know?

Yes. I mean, I haven't seen any patient yet really that doesn't have something. And then you've got the forest fires that you know, were going on in California and blowing all over the country, those pine trees and everything else are bioaccumulating metals and toxins too.

In California, you can't have a wood-burning fireplace, but you can have thousands of acres go up, you know.

Right. It's one of those.

And two, like with respect to the heavy metals, you know, the patients with not enough cellular energy, they need the cellular energy to kick that heavy metal out of the cell. And if they don't, it's all sitting in the cells. So like everything, vicious cycle, you know, and like autistic kids, you look at their urine is low because they're not excreting it.

They're not excretors, right? They're going to accumulate it, hang on to it. Their mitochondria aren't working. So yeah, it's a, it's an issue.

Yep.

Vicious cycle. And so you mentioned when we briefly talked about kind of that complex patient pathogenic pie.

Oh yeah. Yeah. Pathogenic pie. Well, if we see patients with chronic complex illness, we all kind of either develop our own little thing around this or hear somebody else talk about it. But yeah, pathogenic pie. So somebody comes in and they've got this profile of toxicity. And like we said earlier, it's not just one thing. One thing may be primary, maybe they have Borrelia, or maybe they have elevated Epstein-Barr, or maybe they have heavy metals. But what ends up happening, and I think the reason why so many people go to so many doctors, is that they're not thinking about this. They're not thinking about the interplay between these different pieces of the pie. And when you treat one piece of the pie, like if you put somebody on Sporanox, whatever antifungal, Nystatin, it doesn't even matter, even oregano oil. Well, those fungal species bioaccumulate heavy metals in their biofilm. So, when they die off, not only are you going to be dealing with, you know, an antigenicity problem from dead fungal species or mold or whatever it is, but now you've also liberated heavy metals in the blood. So, one thing that I try to do in my practice is make sure that if we're treating one thing, we're kind of looking 4, 5, 6 steps ahead to make sure that we're accounting for the interplay between toxicity or toxins.

Yeah, because, you know, everything's connected, right? And in standard medicine, it's like, oh, well, you don't do that part. You send that over there, you send that over there. And that just doesn't work.

Nope.

You know, and you got to think about all of them. And there is, there's so many different areas, you know, you just think about, you know, how mitochondria dysfunction, you know, from the infection, from the inflammation, from the immune dysfunction, you get low hormones, which causes the mitochondria to be worse, which then you get hypercoagulability from the infection. Now the organ is hiding under that, you get, you know, gut, gut issues, which then, you know, just, it is, it's just everything's a vicious cycle. So it's kind of, how do you decide where to start?

Well, you start with the organs of elimination, the amoncteries. You start with building or modulating their immune system, and then you start trying to peel back layers of this kind of pathogenic pie.

And to go back to, um, so when you say you look at detox, what are like your favorite things? Yeah, that's a good question. Detox.

Yep. So there's a lot of different drainage remedies that you can use. Some of them are energetic, you know, homeopathic drainage remedies like Unda numbers I found to be really useful. They're a little complex to get into cuz there's like 78 of them. But if you learn them and you figure out that, oh, you know, when you put Unda 1 and Unda 243 together, patients, they don't have liver pain anymore. Right? Or you give them, you know, some other number and then their urinary excretion starts to increase. So I think homeopathic drainage remedies can be really helpful.

It just made me think that, like, for you to treat this one section, what you had to learn to do that, and you were willing to do that, you know, and learn this very common 78 things to treat this one section, but knowing how to do everything else, you know, so you wonder why not many doctors go. Go in?

Well, because it's not taught. I mean, it's not even taught in naturopathic medical schools. You know, you've got to go get additional training when you bump up against patients that are really complex. You know, you don't switch specialties, then you've, you know, you, you got to get after it. Herbs can be really helpful too, like greater celandine, Chelidonium, for the liver can be really helpful. Juniper, you know, the berry that they use to make gin, That's an herb that can, that's a great thing to help open the kidney and munctory.

Wow. I'll change from vodka to gin.

There you go. Yeah. Get on, get on the gin. So herbs and homeopathics, bioenergetic remedies is, are what I'm kind of using to get the munctories working. I do a lot of neural therapy, so using like 1% procaine in specific patterns over different organs to treat the autonomic nervous system, get those sodium potassium ATPase pumps working. That has been really, really helpful. You know, it's an injection, so it's a little invasive, but most patients really like it.

And when you do that, I'm just, I'm very interested cuz the autonomic nervous system, you know, it, it's a major issue. And what do you do to kind of diagnose that? And what do you see when you do that treatment?

Well, there's a couple different things that you can do to diagnose it. Obviously, you can look at labs. You know, if you're taking a good history, they're gonna tell you what's going on. You know, they're gonna tell you, hey, you know, my urine stings all the time. I've had a history of bladder infections. Or, yeah, I had to have my gallbladder removed. My digestion is really slow. My stool is green. So then you can say, okay, well, I'm gonna do a I'm going to use neural therapy over, over the liver. The other thing you can do is if you're trained in muscle testing or autonomic response testing or something like that, even though that's controversial, that can be helpful. And it's helpful in my practice. So that's what I do.

You have to say, when I went up to see a mutual patient with Klinghardt, and I'll try to be very brief, but I had parotid gland inflammation, just terrible pain in my parotid glands and spasms. Went to the ENT and he goes, yeah, it's inflamed. It's infected. You couldn't see it, but you know, take antibiotics. I'm like, well, I'm on 7 IV antibiotics, you know, and then I happened to go to Klinghart with a mutual patient and I'm like, hey, you know, I didn't, we didn't go up there for treatment, but I'm like, he's like, hey, let's see what's wrong with you.

You quiz him?

Yeah. Yeah. I said, I'm like, I'm going to see if he, you know, by any chance he's going to pull that.

And he goes.

You got parotid gland inflammation. I'm like, shut the heck up.

That's something.

It wasn't in my chart. You know, he didn't even look at my chart. And right. I'm sure he didn't pick that out. Like, hey, you can't argue with that. You know?

Yeah. It's definitely a good tool. I mean, you've got to couple it with science and a good history and good physical exam and good laboratory studies, but I think it can be helpful.

Yeah. It's another tool. And I think some people are really good at it, like himself. Some people maybe abuse it a little bit and are not that good. Yeah. It's— I've seen it. And it also, when they come and say, oh, we think the patient has this, this, this, more times than not, the lab's like, damn, what they said the infections were, they got—

yeah.

Yeah.

Well, you can bias it, you know, and when I use ART, to test patients, I try and blind myself as much as possible to it. The other thing that I think, and maybe this is just me, but, you know, I think if you're not being honest with yourself or with your patients, your patients aren't going to get better. Right? And then they're going to bounce. They're going to move on. They're going to go find somebody else. So if you're really trying to serve the patient, you're going to do a good job. Regardless of what tool you're using to diagnose.

You're not there to prove that it works or not, you know, you're there to get them better. So in terms of, yes, so detox, and then we're talking about immune system, and then so your immune system, and so what do you like to do for the immune system?

Well, you know, the question I was talking about, natural, natural killer cell activity. I use quite a bit of mushrooms in my practice, so like turkey tail, Ganoderma, lion's mane, things like that. Turkey tail has been shown to increase natural killer cell activity. I think that's a really big deal. It's pretty well tolerated.

It's kind of, it's turkey tail and some lion's mane.

Yeah. It's, it's so good. I take it, you know, my kids take it, especially around this time as we're, we're, it's got even lion's mane. It's incredible. Yeah. It's a big deal. It's a really big deal. You gotta treat the gut when you're looking at the immune system. I mean, yeah, that, that's the most of our immune systems in our gut.

So is that where you start introducing peptides?

So peptides are definitely a piece. I think BPC-157 is, I mean, it's definitely in my top 3 things to use for treating the GI. I like it when it's with TB4 too, just because You're healing those leaky junctions in the gut. You're healing those leaky junctions that are in the brain.

Yeah.

Leaky gut equals leaky brain.

Totally. I think LDA and LDI can be really helpful too. If you're working with immune system and people have a failure of tolerance, they can't—

can't totally explain what, what, what those are.

What LDA and LDI? Yeah. So the theory behind LDA and LDI is that you end up in this vicious cycle of something comes into your system, an antigen, a protein, whatever you want to call it. You know, I, that's what I say to my patients. It doesn't matter what you call it. It's a protein, it's antigen, it's stuff, whatever it is. And, you know, goes to the dendritic cells, the dendritic cells in your immune system, see that and they say, hey, yo, you know, you're not supposed to be here. We're gonna go down to the lymph nodes and let those naive T cells know, right? Which turn into effector cells, and then you start developing immune cells against these antigens, and then you end up with tons of degranulation, tons of histamine. And what does that, that do? Well, that creates more inflammation, right? So there's your cycle right there where LDA and LDI come in. Is if you can kind of retrain those naive T cells to behave a little more appropriately to these things that are normal, right? Normal-ish. I mean, everybody's got strep in them. A lot of people have Epstein-Barr and have no symptoms at all. So if it's really not an infection and you can teach the immune system how to become tolerant to it, then you're going to reduce inflammation, you're going to get out of that huge Th2 shift, and people are going to feel better. I mean, it's been a huge game changer for me personally. It's been a huge game changer for my wife too.

I think it's nice. And I don't—

my sense is, uh, if I had to guess the only people that works in all comers, 50, 60% of patients get 50 to 70% better, I would say. That's my guess. What's your sense? And it's just one little shot. Well, or two little shots.

Yeah.

So, inhalants and foods.

Right.

Yeah.

So, yeah, I would say the majority of patients get better. The timeframe is what kind of irritates me inside, you know, because I'm a guy who, you know, I want my patients to be better yesterday, right? And I always say retraining the immune system is like training a 3-year-old to pick up their stuff. You know, it's gonna take a really long time to get those T-cells to a place where they can be tolerant to things for a long time. And one of the other problems is you can upset that tolerance. You know, if you get a chronic viral or an acute virus, a lot of times that can undo that treatment and you have to get a booster. So, usually what I tell patients is, "This is probably going to help you, but I want you to give it a year before you're willing to say, 'I'm not going to do it anymore,' or, 'This therapy sucks.'" Now, most people get better way before that. But me, for example, it took me 18 months to get over my environmental allergies, my hay fever, the grasses, the dogs, the trees, the bushes, the shrubs.

I'll just use Spectra out. But the thing is, it's not incredibly expensive. It's not—

it's once every 7 weeks.

Yeah. So, and it's just so tiny. Yeah. In fact, I brought some, I went to a conference a couple of weeks ago and one of the docs hadn't done it. I said, I'll, I'll just bring some of my bag and bring, you know, give it to you. Yeah.

It's been really helpful for, um, strep, especially in kids. You know, because you can do it sublingually, you just give 'em a squirt. And I have had scores and scores of parents tell me, wow, that strep remedy, that really helped with their agitation, with their mood.

So do you do that for kind of general kids or is this like the PANDAS kids and PANS?

Yeah, I don't do any well child ex exams, unfortunately.

Yeah.

Yeah. So the kids that I see are usually PANDAS/PANS somewhere, somewhere on the spectrum, but it can also be good for, you know, patients who, oh yeah, I have strep throat twice a year. My tonsils are a hot mess.

Yeah. That's what I was wondering if you were talking about. I haven't seen someone use it for that. That's what I was wondering.

Yeah.

So about autism, tell me about your experience with autism. What are some things you found helpful? And let's say, I think there are you know, so many parents, and they— the standard, what you do for your autistic kid is terrible, barbaric. Like, when they come in, what types of things, uh, do you generally do and what you generally see and tell them what to expect?

You know, it's obviously going to be different in every kid. I'm always looking at the gut, you know, because usually their gut's a mess. A lot of times we will put them on either Cetirizine, you know, that old school antiallergic, you know, because usually there's a little bit of a mast cell piece, which is just another symptom of, of something bigger. And one of the biggest things that we've seen to be helpful is, you know, treating infections. And that's hard to diagnose, right? Because they're little kids, they don't like to get their blood drawn. We'll do an OAT test on 'em, an organic acid urine test on 'em. We'll usually do a stool test. I like the GI Map. Right now. I mean, no stool test is perfect, but I think that one's pretty good. You know, we're, we're checking for things like parasites, Candida, different neurotransmitter issues, but really infection. And, you know, when you start treating the infections, they'll sometimes get a little bit worse, you know, get a little bit worse before they get better. But once you get that load down, and you can use a whole bunch of different things to to treat 'em. I mean, you can use herbs, you can use peptides, you can use tinidazole or albendazole or biltrexide. Not really so much antibiotics. I don't use a lot of antibiotics.

And how, how young do you treat?

My youngest patient right now, I think he's gonna turn 4 in a couple months.

Do you like stem cells, exosomes?

You know, I do, but I don't have any experience with it yet. Just theoretical. Experience. So unfortunately I can't speak to that, but I've heard great things about it. I think from what I have seen, now this is just my, you know, my own personal bias. Sometimes I feel that patients, well, parents will take their kids to get stem cells too soon and it can flare them. And to me, that means that there's some sort of infection there. Latent infection that hasn't been treated and, you know, they get a flare. And I've had a couple patients say, "Yeah, my kid was way worse after that." Yeah.

And that's the last thing you want to do. And yeah, and it's like looking at their labs, I was— when I first started treating autistic kids, it was just kind of like started out with a Lyme parent saying, "Hey, can you treat my autistic kids?" I'm like, "Oh, okay. Let's see." damn, these labs look just like your labs, you know. Right. And they got that immune dysfunction. And I think, yeah, a couple things really where I love exosomes and stem cells in those kids, but we're really starting with peptides first, you know, C-Lang, C-Max, great. Yeah, TB4, BPC, Pitocin, like, which is like the bonding hormone. Love that. Gut, of course, you know, and huge in their gut. Yeah, let's see what else we've had. And it's just, I think, even more satisfying— like treating a Lyme patient, getting them better, satisfying— but see an autistic kid get so much better, it's like, you know, that's a feel-good thing. It's like, wow, you know, because it just affects so many people's lives, not only the kid but the families. And it is so stressful.

Yeah, well, I couldn't imagine. I mean, You've got a kid that you want to get better so that they can live a healthy, healthy and happy life. And, you know, even above that, as a parent myself, you know, I'd be worried like I'm going to die someday, you know? So I'd love to get you to a place where you could be normotypical and, you know, kind of function on your own.

Yeah. And I mentioned on our previous one, we say it, but one of our Patients that we brought our kid in, we could not touch him, could not get close to him. F-bombs, you know, we'd bring them in beforehand, send videos of playing basketball, which is, you know, just looking forward and the basketball going by. And after, I'm not sure how long, but maybe 6 months, we started seeing big improvements, like nasal exosomes, peptides, gut stuff, T3. T3 works great in those kids. A little cortisol growth hormone is great. They're almost all low growth hormone. They have hypopituitary dysfunction. He now comes in and says, "Kai, have a hug." He gives his own shot. He jokes. He's sarcastic. Yeah, he's playing basketball, gymnastics, and it just— like, you can't believe the same kid, right?

Yeah, it's amazing. I feel like these kids are harder to treat than what they were. I mean, I wasn't practicing medicine 20 years ago, so, but from what I've heard from other doctors who do a lot of autism, one of my colleagues, Dr. Dirksen, her and I, you know, work in, well, I work in her clinic. She's treated autistic kids for a long time and she said, yeah, it's, it's more complex now than it used to be. You know, you used to put 'em on a little bit of B12 and a probiotic and, you know, they would get better and now it's much more complicated.

And I think they're being poisoned even more and more. And one thing I couldn't believe, I'm, you know, looking through studies and so many studies are pointing to Tylenol maybe being the number one cause of autism. I'm like, why isn't this all over the news? And they're handing out Tylenol like crazy. Like, don't get Advil, get Tylenol. It's nuts. And then of course the whole vaccination controversy become the crazy anti-vaxxers. I'm not anti-vaxxer, but you know, why are we giving kids hepatitis B vaccines right when they're born? What are they going to start going into prostitution and doing IV drugs? I mean, it's crazy.

Well, and when you look at the immune system of a kid, I mean, the immune system doesn't really fully 100% develop until they're about 7 years old. So I don't know. I think it's a little nuts, but—

Yeah, and it really, it really depends on also, you know, the mother's stress level, which then— they started a kind of a vaccine risk mitigation looking at the kid's immune system. And if their immune system's way off, they're much more likely to have vaccine damage. And you look at, you know, what, you know, a huge risk factor for autism that is not controversial is maternal infection, right?

Right.

And so the baby now has the same immune response because all those, you know, same cytokines are in there. But the response is very strange when they say, well, see, that's why they need to get a vaccine. Well, wait a minute, the vaccine is making them think they have an infection. So it's just like mind-boggling. But yeah, you know, you get into that, you become—

yeah. Gotta watch out.

It's, it's the politics, unfortunately. And I, I love medical debates, but unfortunately it's rare, you know. Everything becomes very political and—

right, people take it very personal too, you know.

Yeah. So kind of back to the title. So how about, you know, fatigue first comes in? I'm fatigued. I can— oh my God, I'm just so tired. It's been progressive over the last, you know, 3, 4 years. What type of things do you look for?

Well, aside from the things that I've already talked about, you know, immune system and making sure that their organs of elimination are working and treating latent chronic infections, you know, and you mentioned hypercoagulation, that's a big deal in my practice. You've got to look at that thick layer of fibrin that's getting laid down. We definitely use, you know, I think heparin is great, even sublingual heparin I've seen work. But if somebody's coming in with fatigue, then obviously I'm gonna be thinking about, well, what's going on with your mitochondria? What's going on in your intracellular and extracellular environment that, you know, you're not able to kind of function at the, at the level that you want to. So, you know, we'll do a lot of different IVs. We'll put them on different mitochondrial formulas. I think there's some peptides that have been, you know, really helpful aside from the ones that we've already talked about. I think thymosin alpha-1, you know, when a patient first comes in is a really good opener just because you're dealing with senescence and kind of removing that camouflage if there are any latent infections there. I think MOTS-c, you know, is an exercise mimetic. It ramps up AMPK. There's, you know, big, big— Yeah.

So, you're talking about MOTS-c. Okay. There's so much research now going on on mitochondrial dysfunction and you look at, every, just about every condition, especially diseases of aging, neurodegenerative diseases, diabetes, they have mitochondrial dysfunction. You know, the mitochondria aren't burning energy, they're, they're basically causing inflammation. And so some of these peptides like MOTC, 5-Amino-1MQ, I don't know if I put dihexa in there, but can really make all the difference. And there's— there are a lot are in clinical trials for Alzheimer's and these things. But, you know, we've had great results with, with some of those mitochondrial peptides.

And yeah, the, the problem I had with MOTS-c— well, I didn't have the problem, my patients had the problem— is that the form that we were using seemed to be a little bit finicky. You know, you gotta draw it up, you're gonna use it within a certain time, and having to reconstitute different things. And I don't think that they're Yeah, it's just not very feasible.

Yeah. And if I mean a 1MQ is great, but it's really a new drug, you know?

Yeah. I don't, I haven't used that.

Yeah. And I won't go through the, you know, the politics of that, but like, wait, people OCD, 2 days, it's gone.

Wow.

Yeah. People I heal.

One of our employees' kids, she was in college, pulled out all her eyebrows, and within just a couple days on it, she stopped.

Yeah. Yeah.

Crazy. And seeing like diabetics or just triglycerides coming down, their energy levels going up. But you also, the other thyroid, you know, all these people are low thyroid, which comes from mitochondrial dysfunction, right? Is that the thyroid's not getting into the cells. But yeah. So it's all that vicious cycle.

Yeah. I think T3 is really helpful. When I dose it with patients, I always— I try and do it twice a day. I don't know, you're, you're much more well-versed in thyroid stuff than I am.

There's arguments to everything. Yeah, like it's good for this, but you give up, you know, they tell me something twice a day, a patient rarely does it. But yeah, you can, you know, want to be perfect, good.

You know, I'm not trying—

I guess it didn't sound right. But, uh, No, I mean, I think, uh, oh, there's a lot of ways to do it. And it's like kind of like asking a chef what's the best way to bake a cake, right?

Right.

You know, he has 5 and 6 different answers.

The other thing, just to get back to the fatigue that I haven't really mentioned, is looking at heavy metals. I've seen that be a big cause of fatigue. I know that's been around in alternative medicine for a really long time, and I feel like more and more practitioners are starting to kind of get away from it just because there's some heat associated with the treatments. You know, you got to be careful.

There's going to be heat. And, you know, and I've kind of mentioned maybe too much, but everything's at risk of going away, you know?

Yeah. And what are you going to do?

I mean, it's going to kill all these patients that change their lives. Then also all the practitioners, all the suppliers, all the compounding pharmacists. And it's the FDA. It's basically, they, they own, you know, the big pharma owns them.

They're the bulldogs for the FDA.

And especially if something is helping someone, is safe, they're going to try to shut it down.

Yeah, we've seen that even with some of the, some of the peptides.

So it's the politics I could certainly do without. Let's see, brain fog. What, what, what are some of your things that you like?

Well, since I'm thinking about peptides, you know, obviously C-Lanc and C-Max would be a really good place to start. I think C-Max is really important for cognition. You probably read that mouse model study that was done where they gave rats the infusion of lead and then they put 'em through a maze test, right? And their learning and memory went way down. And then they split the group. They gave like half of them C-Max and the other half high-dose vitamin C, you know, based on their, based on their weight. And the group that got CMAX, their cognition improved just as well as it did with, with high-dose vitamin C. Yeah. I think that's, that's a really big deal. I think making sure that patients, you know, if they, if they've got fatigue, chronic pain, fibromyalgia, they need to be on a good diet. You know, you can't be feeding your body a bunch of crap and expect to get, get good gas mileage out of it, right? You need to be living a clean life. You need to be exercising. Exercise is a huge thing.

I mean, hey, we work—

we got peptides now that makes your body think that you're exercising and that you're fasting. So, right, who needs a— I didn't wake up religiously and do a shot. Yeah, with the CBAX and C-Lanc, yeah, they're interesting. And the C-Lanc really seems to also help tolerate stress as well. And shribulicin. Have you used shribulicin?

Yep.

When, when we could get it.

Yeah. Which really can't get injectable anymore, but you will be able to get it orally, which is shown to work with EEG studies, uh, where 1 cap equals about 2 cc's. But that's been around forever and tons of studies on, on that. And I think too, we're going to find, you know, with all these chronic illnesses, people are living longer. There's going to be so much dementia, Alzheimer's. And, you know, you're like, you look at the studies with Harvard Brain Bank, but he found Lyme in all the Alzheimer's patients. And you're getting, you know, basically prions, or these misfolded proteins, which are actually part of Alzheimer's from infections. And it's crazy. The more we know, it's a little scary. But it seems like there's things that we can do to start now instead of waiting till, well, they're basically nothing you can do.

Right. CBD's been pretty helpful for a lot of my patients too. Like 20 to even 40 milligrams a day. It's kind of high. They say it doesn't make 'em drowsy.

Now, do you like, do you find difference between broad spectrum versus—

We use a broad spectrum. That's the one that we, that we have in our clinic. Am I allowed to say brand names here?

Yeah, that's fine.

Yeah, we use the Endoca product. I don't have any affiliation.

As long as you're not affiliated, so yeah.

No, I don't.

You don't own the company, so.

No. Yeah, they've said that's been really helpful.

Yeah, Endoca. Yeah. And there's actually, I mean, you know, they know their stuff. You know, it's amazing. And I've, I found if, you know, I think some people do better with low THC. If I have the the most minute amount of THC, I'm like freaking out, you know.

Me too.

But so, I mean, that's not for me, but some of my patients I think do better with, with the THC. But I think CBD is another, you know, great anti-inflammatory and has a lot of great properties.

I think binders are a big deal too. We haven't really talked about binders. I use a ton of binders. I mean, almost every single patient that I have is on some sort of binder and they hate it.

Do you like, yeah, which ones in particular do you find for one patient uses a particular type, colocyramine or?

Yeah. Colocyramine's tough. You know, I like it. I think it, I mean, it's probably the best binder there is, especially when you're talking about mycotoxins and things, but so constipating, smells like crap. Patients don't like it. So I'll use, um, Toxies Bind. That's a product, again, I don't have any affiliation with any products at all. That's been really good and it's non-constipating.

Yeah.

So, you know, keep back and say, what is a binder?

Yeah, a binder is a sponge. That's what a binder is. A binder is a great example is charcoal. Charcoal is a binder, right? It's going to bind up toxins that are in the gut and, you know, put it in the sponge and then you're going to excrete it. And patients will say, well, how is that gonna help me systemically? You know, if it's just staying in the gut, well, there's only one cell layer between the lumen of the GI tract and the blood system. So I think that it's having some synergistic effects with how people are feeling neurologically. I think Zeobind is helpful. Sometimes chlorella is really good, even if they swallow it and not chew it. That's been really helpful for brain stuff. Charcoal is a big deal.

Yeah.

Like, it's all nasty. Like, well, what are some of the mild ones that people can start with?

Well, if we're talking about mild yet effective, I would say I would put chlorella in that category. And the way I dose it is usually like 9 tablets, 3 times a day. Modified citrus pectin.

And then there And then, this binding all the other stuff and they're on a bike.

Yeah.

Well, you, that's the thing. It, you know, if you're doing it 3 times a day, it's a pain in the tush because you've gotta take it. I always tell 'em, take it 20 minutes before you take anything else. That seems to be enough time for that binder to get in the GI tract and not bind up other things. 20 minutes before or 60 minutes after. And I know there's controversy around that. Modified citrus pectin, I think is a fantastic binder. You know, there's been research on that showing, what is it? It, I'm having a brain fart here. I think it inhibits Galectin-3, which, you know, we know is important in cancer progression.

Oh, a lysine big part. Yeah.

Yep. Yeah, exactly. Yep. And then there was that study that they did in China where they looked at lead excretion. It wasn't a great study 'cause there was no placebo group, but you know, their urine metal levels went down, their cadmium, their arsenic, and their, and their lead levels. And that one's easy. It tastes good. You know, if you use like the Clinical Synergy or something like that, kids love it. They're that little flavor tablet.

I haven't used that in a while. It's been on my, you know, my bathroom for a long time.

But yeah, it is.

I mean, there's— the problem is there's so many great supplements. But it reminded me, we're talking about sublingual heparin, and you know, it's very low absorption. But I read a study last night, or maybe this morning, but it's— they gave ultra-low molecular weight heparin with chitosan and they got significantly more absorption and they were looking at mast cells.

And, you know, if you talk to mast cell guys, heparin's evil, right? Oh my God.

I said, because they check it, you know, mast cell activation, it's high. And I'll let you know, mast cell, the mast cell group, very intelligent people. And I'm like, you can kick me out of the group, but I use heparin on these mast cell patients. I'm telling you, they do better. And even they kind of convinced me, no, you can't do that. I started trying to take the patients off and switch them like Lovenox. And like, I'm not going off, are you crazy? But this study actually showed with sublingual with kaitosan suppressed mast cells.

Unreal.

With the heparin. And so that's part of the, I think, the effect that we find. And I think you find it too, it's like someone's shortness of breath. Also, you give them a little heparin, they're like, my shortness of breath is gone. You know, and just like Babesia patients and things like that.

Well, we've had patients in the IV room before who, you know, they feel like they're going to vasovagal. They go and they have a little bit of a panic attack and we'll give them a squirt of sublingual heparin and it'll pull them right out of it. I mean, maybe it's placebo. I don't know, but I haven't not had it yet.

I love that.

What made you do that?

I was at a conference a few years ago. And Butch Schrader, Dr. Schrader was talking about LDA and LDI and what to do to pull somebody out of a flare. And he said, give them a little— I kind of pulled him aside, I think, and asked him. I don't think he said it in front of the group, but he said, give them a little sublingual heparin and see if it works. And so I just said, well, I say what? Yeah. And it's so easy. You know what I mean? Very low risk when you do it.

All right.

And that's like, I was going to say, I feel vindicated. Yeah. So yeah, I'm telling you, it's been thought to be bad and it's a mainstay. It's like, and when people have coagulation, that's our tell 'em that, Eric, the bad news and the good news. Bad news, you got coagulation. The good news is you got coagulation problems and we can clear this up. You know, Hepatitis enzymes as well and nattokinase, lumbrokinase. But I think that those are, you can use them together, but I think for someone as active, I think heparin really just outperforms the, you know, the enzymes. But to keep it away, I think enzymes are great.

How long are you having somebody on enzymes before you start to see coagulation stuff turn around?

Now you're putting me in a tough place. Yeah. I mean, I usually will start heparin right off the bat.

Yeah.

I try to find a reason to give heparin.

Yeah. I mean, I think it takes too long. You know, with the enzymes, I love them. I love the idea of it. And Corson's work is amazing. She's wicked smart. Sorry, that's my New England coming out.

Yeah.

So I'll add it with it and sometimes not, and then kind of use that to keep it away. Because once you kind of get it away, they do pretty well for a while unless they have reactivation of it. Because it really only comes up if it's just sitting there and like, you know, lining the vessels and the infections are hiding in there. And so for the everyone listening, so what happens, it's called immune activation of coagulation. A number of infections can do it, especially Babesia is a big one, Lyme, even some of the viruses, is that the body tries to lay down this fibrin to wall off the infection, which is good in the short term. But now it has— it's not a clot, but it's kind of a pre-clot. So now hormones can't get through, nutrients can't get through, waste products can't get out. And the body can't really get up the infection. And then also oxygen that takes usually 2 seconds to get in the cells now takes up to 2 minutes. So people get like short of breath and a little parlor trick that you can do to show patients, and it's pretty consistent, but it, it does depend on the people's basically how motivated they are, is you put a pulse ox on, right? You blow out all your air and hold your breath. And then, so a normal person, so you have the oxygen now normally comes from your lungs, comes, you know, in from your lungs into the blood, goes into the cells, gets used up. Okay, so that would go down, but you're breathing at replenishment. So if you cut that off, that saturation should go down. So they start dropping, doop, doop, doop, doop, doop. But people with coagulation, they barely drop. They'll stay at 96, 95. And they don't go down. And the standard doctor, well, that's great, you got all this oxygen in your blood. It's not getting in the tissues, right? And yeah, and so it's a little thing to show the patient, and they'll have— like, we'll do with the patient and their friend, and they'll see theirs basically flatline and their friend's goes down, and they think, well, mine's better.

No, because the oxygen is not getting where it should be.

I think ozone is, um, really helpful too for increasing oxygen utilization. And plus it, yeah, yeah, stimulates NAD, which is a big deal. That's been a big help in our practice for mast cell activation syndrome.

Yeah.

Oh, we, we love ozone and yeah, you're right.

It's a immune modulator. You know, it's weird. You're giving an oxidant, but it, yeah, stimulates antioxidants. It converts to oxygen in the tissues instantly.

Instantly, like within milliseconds.

And so it's—

there's so many great properties. And, you know, Rowan going over to Sierra Leone and treating Ebola.

I know, that was cool.

Yeah.

And I like tequila. And yeah, it's pretty much a mainstay for our practice.

It works with a lot of things: autoimmunity, immune dysfunction, chronic infections, mitochondrial dysfunction.

Yeah, you name we've had patients with PANS/PANDAS flares, you know, they come in and they get, you know, a little bit of ozone. They walk out better.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that for autoimmunity. The BPC-TB4 Epitalon is also great. It kind of gets a little complicated. And then stem cells, awesome. And then the bone marrow ones is the one thing I think they're better at. Doing is immune modulation for autoimmunity. But, you know, most standard doctors think you can't do much about, oh, you got autoimmunity, da da da. But almost always you reverse it. And you look at the studies, almost always there's a chronic infection driving the autoimmunity, right? And you look at the Lyme patients, you know, and they go to rheumatologist, they say, oh, they got mixed connective tissue disease, which means they have all these different antibodies, but they doesn't fit in the category and they get antiphospholipid syndrome and they go, oh, or all these things are genetic. No, they go away. You know? Yeah. It's again, it's a part of that immune dysfunction.

If you've got viruses that are living inside your cell, cuz a virus is just a parasite. That's all it is. Right? It needs a host in order to be able to do its thing. Or even a spirochete, then of course your immune system is gonna become activated and say, hey, you're a bad cell.

right?

And then if you add on to that, you're looking at things like all of the toxicants that are in the environment from chlorine to whatever, you know, chlorine is displacing iodine in the thyroid cell. And of course your immune system's gonna look at that and say, hey, you're not functioning right.

So, yeah. And highly associated with autoimmunity.

And it's interesting.

And there's a lot of, they did some study on the obese children and looked at Hashimoto's, and they found that majority of obese children had Hashimoto's with negative antibodies.

And also another study, they did thyroid biopsies on people who were just fatigued, and they found inflammation in the thyroid. Treat them with thyroid regardless of their thyroid levels, and the overall majority got significantly better. Another study showed that people with chronic fatigue syndrome did biopsies, had 8 active HHV-6 in their thyroid but nowhere else in their body, right? Yeah. So it's like, you know, the TSH course is normal, but of course, right?

Yeah, your thyroid's fine, don't worry about it.

Let's see, neurologic symptoms. What type of neurologic symptoms? I always tell patients that the weirder the symptoms, the more likely it is it's Lyme.

So for neurological stuff, we run the gamut. You know, we have everything from anxiety, depression, anger, irritability, OCD, paranoia. I mean, full-on paranoia to, you know, just kind of your regular, uh, anhedonia, not really feeling good about life. Other neurological things like twitching, muscle cramps, you know, usually our patients there, when I do a muscle strength test on them or check their reflexes, they're always abnormal.

Do you see fasciculations a lot?

Yes. Yep. Especially early, early in treatment. And then when we work on the infections, that gets way better.

Yeah. And so that's the space where your muscles kind of look like a bag of worms type thing, and it's basically— has the line for like upper neuron disease. And I had terrible fasciculation, so I'm like, oh my God, I've I've got upper neuron disease and, but it's amazing everything that Lyme does. I mean, it's attacking the nerves, you know?

Right. So that happened to you?

Oh, I had terrible fasciculations. Yeah.

Yeah. And what was the thing that helped treat that for you?

Well, yeah, 3 and a half years of antibiotics did squat. Really peptides, stem cells, ozone. Okay. I did a lot of things, but those were the 3 key things that Got me better. And I'd throw T3 in there too.

Yep. Okay, cool.

Yeah.

So, you know, so I did a lot, but those, like, it, you know, I remember, and I went to heart failure and I, I couldn't stand up straight. I couldn't, it would take me 40 minutes to go upstairs. I went and did ozone stem cells. Well, you know, I didn't do them on the same day, but I did stem cells and peptides. And then I got home and I just, walked up the stairs and I'm like, holy crap, I just walked up the stairs, you know? And then the cardiologist said that you can maybe get 10% better in 10 years. And I'm hunched over and as obvious not being able to walk. And he's like, yeah, maybe 10% better in 10 years. I'm like, that's a death sentence. I go back a year and I'm like normal.

And he goes, oh, that's nice.

That's crazy. Yeah. Um, sure.

You, well, thanks for sharing.

I was curious what your experience was with that. In terms of your second question, treating, treating pain. Yeah, I do a, I do a lot of injections. I'll do Prolozone, I'll do neural therapy. I'll just do, you know, injections with 5% dextrose. Sometimes I'll mix in a little bit of procaine. Sometimes I'll do a little bit of lidocaine. Injections have been really helpful because you're bypassing the gut, you know, when you, when you do an injection on somebody and if you do it intradermally, right underneath the skin, then you're treating the nervous system, right? Because that's pretty— autonomic nervous system is, and there's not a place in the body that isn't being fed in some respect by the autonomic nervous system.

Yeah.

And then you're doing OSA, are you going intra-articular or in the soft tissue or—

yep, all the above.

All the above.

And you know what's interesting, and now I'm very used to it. And you talk to some anesthesiologists who are now doing more of this where, like, my buddy who does, you know, stem cells, exosomes, he just does subcutaneous, you know, and he will give the people's money back if they're not significantly better before they leave the room. And, you know, we have one doctor say, "Well, that's crazy." And he goes, "Come here." And he had frozen shoulder, which I didn't know. I knew him, but I didn't know. And so he does it. He's like, well, nothing's happening.

And he goes, okay.

And it's like, then he goes, well, I don't know. I don't want to, but—

And that was just subcutaneous exosomes?

Yeah.

Yeah.

Unbelievable.

Yeah.

And he added some peptides to it too. And it just, he consistently gets out, he gives that guarantee. And I know a lot of anesthesiologists who are converting to that, which is like, here heresy, you know?

Right. Yeah. I think injections are really helpful. You know, it's a little bit of a barrier for the patient. You know, it's an added cost sometimes and somewhat barbaric, right?

But hey, you know, sub-q a lot easier than intra-articular. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep.

But when you've got somebody who's got chronic knee pain and, you know, you've got infection that's living in the joint because it's, it's immune system poor. And there's a ton of hyaluronic acid in there, which we know bugs love to eat. If you can go in there and put a little bit of ozone, they're gonna respond really well. I mean, I would say I've probably had 85 to 90% success rate just in terms of people being able to walk downstairs and yeah, bend down and get stuff out of the cupboards sometimes just after one injection.

Big deal. This was 20 years ago. I'm told I needed hip replacement.

And, you know, it's, well, whatever, how old are we? You know, young.

And the orthopedist is ripping, by the way. And he's like, yeah, you need hip replacement. I'm like, what about, you know, this is like PRP and stem cells and ozone. He goes, doesn't work.

And then I'm like, what do you recommend?

He's like, so this is the surgery we're going to do. He goes, I had the same surgery. I'm like, what's wrong with your leg as well? My bone collapsed and I had some traction boots. For 4 months. I got nerve damage. I'm like, okay. And then, so, you know, I go and do, you know, combination, you know, initially PRP, stem cells, ozone, and later on we get silver peptides, you know, those was probably within a year, maybe 3 or 4 injections, 70% better. I couldn't even tie my shoes. And then second year, 80%, 90%. Now I haven't got an injection in 5 years, you know. Wow.

Yeah.

You know, we've talked a little bit about TB4, but TB4 has been great for pain and, and BPC-157. I mean, even, you know, whether you're doing it intradermally or orally, I found that to be really, really useful.

Yeah.

And it's actually equal potent orally or systemic. Yeah. And they both, you know, more studies on TB4, but a lot of people feel PPC, they can have the same effects with different mechanisms. So they're great to use together.

Yeah, I love it. Yeah, there's a lot of studies on TB4. I mean, I was reading some stuff. It's anti-fibrotic. We know it's antiviral. There was that study. It's liver protective.

With that, I suppose, uh, your, your partner was saying, I guess she uses more TB4 frag. I think he uses more TB4.

I'm switching now though.

Yeah.

I like the frag better. I feel like patients tolerate it a little bit better. When I was doing TB4, you know, the injection, I was doing that big loading dose, you know, in the beginning and then, you know, whatever, 20 lines or 0.2 mLs, you know, every other day or however, however I was rolling it out. I was having a lot of patients' herx on that.

Yeah.

Yeah. So, I talked about how, you know, TB4 protein amino acid has multiple domains. And one of the domains stimulates mast cells. And so, you know, in general, you give TB4 to mast cell patients, in general, they're going to do better because of the immune modulation. But you got a competing effect of it's directly stimulating the mast cells. So, the TB4 frag takes out that domain that stimulates mast cells. But it has, you look at the studies, you know, the, the immunomodulatory, you know, anti-inflammatory, the hearing, anti-fibrotic. Then there's a different frag in a different domain that stimulates hair. So if you want to go hair, it's probably better to use the frag because it can get into the scalp better than the long peptide chain.

Very cool. I didn't know that about the hair.

Yeah.

So, I mean, I would be bummed. I, I've had hair transplants how many years ago? And it was, and I can't, I'm not good looking enough to pull off the Vin Diesel. And then, and that's my kind of big star, but very like I had brain surgery. So I'm like, I got to get my hair growing. So this is actually the thickest it's been in 30 years.

Wow. That's awesome. And is that just from taking it orally? Doing the TB4 frag orally?

And I do a serum on it.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Cool.

Yeah. I just sometimes injections, but I'm, I'm wimpy with that. Plus with the scar, it makes it hurt a lot more. So I don't do that many injections, but I have.

What about the GHK-CU? Have you seen that?

Yeah, I think it's good. It actually, it's interesting that the literature is mixed on really how much it absorbs. So the GHK-CU does seem to absorb much better than the GHK. So if you get, if you get that, make sure you get with the, uh, the CU on it. But yeah, that, that's great. And then you had a PTD. You can add that to peptides sometimes to make them absorb better. Then you get an increased cost and things like that. And now they're starting to become new drugs. So, uh, we're playing that. But yeah, I love GHK. Thymulin may be even better than TB4, but the TB4 frag for hair is smaller, so it's going to get in better than thymulin. Although thymulin absorbs better than you would think because it has some nonpolar amino acids. Oh yeah, you can tell we've been working on this. But so yeah, we have good results with, with different serums. But yeah, so we made the whole gambit. We went from fatigue, brain fog, all the way to hair.

Very, yeah. Toes to head.

So awesome. Yeah, we're in LA, so it doesn't matter how you feel, it's how you look, right?

You got it.

Here with my tooth from Amazon and super blurry. So, hey, great talking to you. Uh, just, I think we came across a bunch of different pearls and, and love your approach. And, you know, just helping so many people. I think your group is awesome and which is rare to get awesome doctors together. So that, that's great. And thank you for taking the time to be on. I'm sure everyone's gonna get a lot out of this and really appreciate it.

Hey, you're very welcome. Thank you too for having me and thank you for everything that you're doing for medicine. You're doing a lot.

Oh, thank, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. You too.

Keep up the great work.

All right.

All right. Take care.

Thanks.

Thanks for joining us on the Peptides and Longevity Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, don't forget to subscribe, share, and leave a review. It helps us reach more listeners passionate about optimizing their health. For more insights, resources, and updates, visit our website at www.holtorfmed.com. Together, let's embrace a future of health and vitality. Until next time, stay inspired and keep thriving.