The Longevity Shortcut: How Mitochondrial Peptides Reverse Aging

you're going to lose weight if you do this, and that's going to solve the problem. You have to understand the whole process. And so yes, we may lower inflammation and lower visceral fat, but for this person, it may be because their immune system is just revved up, right? This person, it may be they don't have the nutrients to, uh, to support mitochondrial function. So now we've got to really bolster their mitochondrial function. Same, same outcome, same symptoms, different focus in clinical therapy.

Welcome to the Peptides and Longevity Podcast, redefining aging and transforming health. Each week, Dr. Kent Holtorf will dive into groundbreaking science, innovative therapies, and the future of health and longevity alongside visionary physicians and experts. We'll explore how peptides, cutting-edge medicine, and lifestyle strategies can redefine the way we age. Get ready to transform your health, optimize your vitality, and unlock the secrets to a longer, healthier life. Let's get started.

Hello, this is Dr. Kent Holtorf. Today we are honored to have Dr. George Rice, who is going to be speaking on mitochondrial peptides. Mitochondrial peptides— have we found the path to optimal health and longevity? And I really think this is a key. We got pharmaceutical companies pumping tons of money into this because you look at, you know, basically all the diseases of aging have to do with low mitochondrial function, neurodegenerative diseases. You know, the cells don't have enough energy and they just end up totally dysfunctional. They cause mutations, they cause cancer. So, looking forward to, to this talk. A little bit about George. He's known as empowering, uh, and a guide to authentic next-level health. He's a specialist in precision performance medicine. He believes that one should not just survive but thrive. He's an expert clinician known for getting people to look and feel better than they thought they could. And I love that. We see it all the time. He combines state-of-the-art lifestyle, lifestyle, lifestyle assessment, uh, technology with cutting-edge epigenetic coaching. We'll have him explain that. Peptide therapy, hormone optimization, and functional medicine to guide motivated clients to their full health potential. He is passionate about for clients to develop the knowledge to obtain next-level physical performance and youthful appearance and longevity. And I agree, it sounds like he becomes partners with his patients, and which I think is key. He received his BS in psychology from Stanford—

not too shabby.

He obtained an MS in health science management and an MD from Rush University. He completed his family medicine residency at the University of Southern California. I won't hold that against him. Uh, and he's board certified in family medicine. Uh, he is certified in age management medicine and certified by the Academy of Preventative and Innovative Medicine in the advancement of bioidentical hormone replacement therapy. He is certified in functional medicine through the Institute of Functional Medicine. So you can tell he's been to a lot of courses and gone through a lot of training. He's recognized as an IFM certified practitioner. He's specially trained in functional medicine and nutrition. So highly qualified, I'd say, would sum it up. Thanks, George. Thanks for being on.

Hey, thanks, Keith. It's great to be here.

Very much appreciated. Sounds like you're doing great work.

Well, it's all, uh, it's all part of, uh, it's a passion, right? And, uh, it really is a statement about, uh, you know, what we need. Um, it's really a myth that you have to feel poorly as you get older, and, uh, I really created all this stuff and participate with my clients, uh, to help change that. So thank you for allowing us to get the message out.

Well, thank you.

And I think that's that paradigm change where, you know, standard physicians are lagging way behind, where you don't go in until you've had a heart attack, until you're, you know, feeling so horrible. And then 9 times out of 10, they don't know what to do with you, right?

Um, because You know, I've brought this up. I don't blame the physicians a little bit, but it's the system. They don't get paid extra for learning more. Right now, it's the who cares less wins because they can see more patients. But so, breath of fresh air. You know, doctors like yourself are few and far between, especially in Alaska.

And, uh, very far between. Yeah.

So how many doctors do anything of the sort in Alaska?

Well, there's a couple, uh, there's a handful of us, uh, off the top of my head there's, uh, 2 or 3, uh, who are, uh, dedicated to, um, functional medicine and shifting the paradigm. Um, and you make a good point, you know, this, uh, you know, I tried to straddle both systems. I tried to straddle traditional medicine and bring this into traditional medicine, because I saw the impact it made on my patients. And so you're right, it's not, it's not their fault, meaning it's not the system's fault. The system is doing exactly what it's designed to do. It's designed to treat acute problems and disease. We can't fault it for that. But, and again, to your point, is when we get this new information and ability to make a difference and change, it is on us to do that. So, you know, I try not to pit the two, the paradigm against the other paradigm. And in fact, I really pitch it as this is just extra tools for your toolbox. And so, but it is difficult to do in the other system. So you're right there.

Yeah, I guess, yeah, I'm guilty of that because I don't know, I've just seen so many doctors that, you know, I don't know if you may have seen this where you send the patient back, the patient loves their doctor, right?

Right.

But they haven't got better for 10 years and they come to you, they get better, you send them back, you think the doctor will call you and go, oh, what'd you do? No, they're like, that's quackery. If a doctor doesn't know about it. It's, it's quackery, and the least they know, the more adamant they're right. But, uh, but I'll get off my soapbox.

Yeah, we could, we could, uh, we can chat about that offline.

So anyways, um, but look, but there's a lot of good, good physicians, and great, but a couple of the bad ones really, um, let's talk about, okay, mitochondria first. What are mitochondria?

So the mitochondria, of course, we all forget about it, right? You know, that first year of med school, it's like you cram it in and you can't wait to forget it. But I wish I had paid a lot more attention when I was in med school because it's actually critical. So the mitochondria are, as I talk to my clients, these are the little critters inside all our cells. That make energy, and they are the— I call them the switch boxes. So food, oxygen that comes into our bodies, they take that and convert it into energy, uh, and they make us run. And so it seems to me that, um, it's— you have to look at the mitochondria if you are looking to get people to optimal health. It has to be part of the equation.

They do a lot more than just make energy, we're finding out now too.

Oh, absolutely. And so that's how we're traditionally thinking of it. And so they do a lot more. So they regulate whether the cell lives or dies. They regulate how much calcium's in the cell, and that alone regulates lots of other processes, like how much insulin you put out if you're diabetic or you have too much sugar. So they do a lot. And we're learning more and more about them almost every day.

And what happens, and maybe what conditions, uh, if the mitochondria become dysfunctional? I know even with, with age they start declining, but what are some major things that happen and what are maybe major, some major diseases that are clearly associated with mitochondrial dysfunction?

And so, you know, my answer is everything, right?

It is, right?

But you're right, we've associated and are beginning to recognize, at least in the literature, a strong association with mitochondrial dysfunction with, for example, Alzheimer's dementia, for heart dysfunction, heart failure, the beginning of atherosclerotic disease, Autoimmune, that is a big issue. And that's right away people recognize the role of mitochondria in autoimmune dysfunction. So inflammatory bowel disease, multiple sclerosis, psoriatic arthritis, so all of those connective tissue disorders, mitochondria are playing a central role. Because, and the reason why I say all of it is because, and you know, it's all about how much energy do you have to make things work? And that's what it comes down to.

Yeah.

And there's generally— there's general, uh, in the health world, there's 9 hallmarks of aging and longevity. Mitochondrial dysfunction is one of them. But for me, uh, and through my lens, uh, everything, everything goes through the mitochondria, uh, and also hormones. Uh, so they're critical.

So yeah, and those, those go together.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, I mean, you fix the mitochondria, you're gonna fix a heck of a lot of things, you know.

Yes.

And that's what I want to say, like heart failure, uh, it's like they do nothing to fix the heart, you know. I had heart failure myself from Lyme, and, you know, a big part of my treatment was rehabbing the mitochondria. And the cardiologist said, oh, you'll maybe get 10% better in 10 years. No, just forget it. I can't walk upstairs. I can't. And then a year later, you know, with peptides were the key. Uh, stem cells also helped, ozone, you know, and I did a lot of things, but, and he's like, wow, we've never seen that before. Did he ask what I did?

No, no, of course not.

Right.

It's a miracle. Right. Right?

But yeah, so you've kind of got the importance of mitochondria. So like, what are some of the things that like, how does someone know if they have dysfunctional mitochondria? It's when they have one of those diseases or tired or forgetful, or what are some of the, for like the average person?

Yeah, so that's a great question. So, as of now, do we have specific tests specifically for mitochondrial function? And that's no. But, as you know, clinically, there are some big signs. And so, chronic fatigue, autoimmune imbalance, so people who have allergies or what we call fibromyalgia, right, chronic fatigue syndrome, Any autoimmune issue, pretty much you could take that as a sign of significant—

Yeah, when all those go together, you look at, you know, chronic fatigue syndrome. They did muscle biopsies in fibromyalgia chronic fatigue syndrome patients, and their mitochondria are all swollen. They're just even anatomically dysfunctional. Dysfunctional. And people are like, oh, it's a made-up illness, it's psychological.

Right, because we don't know, so many less calories, you know. Right, and then to your point earlier, you were saying, you know, if in traditional medicine, if we don't know, then it doesn't exist. Yeah, right, yeah, yeah, the science is there, I mean, the literature is supporting that. In fact, uh, uh, was it 2016? I believe, uh, there were a few articles, uh, they looked at— they did muscle biopsies in insulin-resistant patients and consistently they have lower numbers of mitochondria, they have higher numbers of low-functioning mitochondria, and they have mitochondria that are just not functioning well. And actually they look swollen, right? And so like you said, swollen tissue because of dysfunction. So the evidence is there. Is it proof? Well, you know, I don't have to jump out of an airplane, you know, without a parachute to know what happens. Uh, yeah, we don't know, right? We just know.

Yeah. And I've written a couple review articles on, uh, on hypothyroidism or cellular hypothyroidism, and the rate-limiting step is your cells need energy to bring the thyroid hormones in. And any condition with low mitochondrial function, you're hypothyroid.

Right.

Yeah, which compounds and perpetuates the problem because actually the pituitary sees the thyroid, but the rest of the body does not. And thyroid is one way to boost mitochondria, but if they're dysfunctional, you're beating on a dysfunctional cell, but it's nuts that they're just stuck on one paradigm that TSH is the end-all. And you mentioned the study just came out showing TSH is very unreliable, which I love because I've been preaching that forever, called a quack and, you know, and all that stuff.

Yeah, I remember your— I think I was telling you earlier, when I was a resident, I read your paper on the summary of thyroid function And I think he'll be happy because this paper that came out, uh, actually just extended and expounded on what you were talking about in the sense that TSH does not necessarily correlate with peripheral physiological process. It's really the brain's happy, all right, right? It has ability to take its own thyroid hormone, but the rest of the body is suffering. And so they did a, a study, they looked at all the studies in thyroid hormone and did a strong correlation of Actually, free T3 and free T4 are more indicative of the clinical condition of the client, of the patient. TSH was rated really low.

So, and it's like, or we'll suppress the TSH and they go to their endocrinologist or their doctor and they'll say, "Oh my God, you made them hyperthyroid!" And their pulse is 54, they just gained 30 pounds, they can't get out of bed. Their temperature is so low. Uh, it's like, hello, like, you know, right? Crazy. Everyone's just stuck to this algorithm, right?

Well, it seems obvious to you, um, and it seems obvious to me, and hopefully we can get more people to be more obvious to it.

Yeah, hopefully. I just mentioned I've been working on tests for 15 years. I got it 90% done and I can't finish it. But we'll come up with a test to show that. So we kind of talked about the consequences, or what if someone, healthy person, all of a sudden their mitochondria go, let's just say it's from toxins or whatever illness, what's the repercussions?

So you're right, so people who are pretty healthy and they have a lower function, they may not notice it as much, it'll be more subtle. So excuse me, people who are active, they may notice that they don't recover as quickly between workouts. And they feel a little more sore, and the soreness doesn't clear. They can't push themselves. They can't do as much high-intensity training. So that's on the one other spectrum. Of course, on the lower end, or just the average client who doesn't work out too much, they just notice a lack of drive. Focus, concentration, neurological decline. Physically, they begin to put on, you know, that a little bit of weight toward the middle. No matter what they do, no matter decreasing calories, exercising, their metabolism starts to slow, right? And no matter what they do, they can't get it to kick up again. So those are all big clues thyroid plays a big role in that. But certainly big clues— the thought— the mitochondria are beginning to be inefficient. Yeah, we gotta address that.

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And I find like post-chemo, which wipes out the mitochondria, um, I mean, these people just lethargic, they're depressed, but they don't know why. Yep. And they really, uh, need treatment. I feel bad for them. And their doc says, oh no, you're fine, don't take anything. Like, you know. Right. And it's just really effective with a couple patients like that recently.

And, uh, I mean, their mitochondria, and they're like, oh my gosh, you know, what happened, right?

And just simple stuff, right? Uh, you you know, CoQ10, D-ribose. I mean, there's tons of studies in the cardiology world about energy recovery until we can get the mitochondria back online. D-ribose is a really awesome—

Do you like IVs, or do you use some of the supplements, like—

I've used both. Yeah, because of where I am, I'm limited, limited in terms of IV treatments. But I find that even just taking the powders 3 to 5 grams a day.

You can also do NAD sub-q, um, which— I didn't do that.

Yeah, which, which is, uh, you know, you just basically take the vial. What is it, 100 or 200 milligrams per cc? 0.2 a day, and it seems to work really well.

Awesome.

Yeah, and along with— do you use, um, also like PQQ? MitoQ, those things. In fact, when we're using 5-Amino-1MQ, is that all of a sudden it stopped working, but we thought, you know, we kind of overcharged the mitochondria and they couldn't keep up with the basic creating pro-oxidants inside the mitochondria. And we'd give those and all of a sudden, like, hey, it's working again, you know, which makes Makes sense, right? And so how do you protect the mitochondria, or, or do mitochondria protect themselves, or how does that work?

Yeah, great question. And this is all part of some recent research that's come out. It's pretty fascinating. So we used to think that, and we were, you know, you probably taught like I was, that pretty much is how traditional medicine sees it. We just send signals to the organ, and it does what it's supposed to do, and that's it, right? But now we're understanding that the mitochondria actually send signals out, and those signals are mediated through a class of peptides called mitochondrial-derived peptides. So when the mitochondria in the cell gets stressed, it can actually not only send signals to the local community to bolster itself, like create more heat shock proteins, create more components for the electron transport chain to make more energy, to start to absorb more of the oxygen so we don't make more free radicals. But even further than that, the studies show it actually sends signals out into circulation and into the CNS, the central nervous system. And so it's not just the mitochondria being told what to do and they're misfiring, they actually are sending signals out to preserve themselves, preserve the cells, preserve tissue. So it's a fascinating, uh, network that we weren't even aware of, and it just drives home the point that you're making. Mitochondria are They're the hub, and if we want to optimize, we have to address that. So that's how they protect themselves, and if we can support them with the right food, PQQ, CoQ10, which is an awesome antioxidant for mitochondrial function, and now we have the ability to provide the peptides themselves, meaning the mitochondrial peptides that they usually make themselves, we can actually provide them to you to bolster your own function. So it's wonderful. And so it's exciting. It's an exciting time to be a patient, I have to say. Yeah. Yeah.

As long as they don't get shut down.

Yeah.

Right. That's a scary thing. A, it's safe and working. Right. You don't want to get them stopped.

Right.

Well, yeah, we found, like, as you were saying, that they do a lot more than make energy. Like, they tell the body when there's an infectious, uh, insult and send off all these different things, and they'll go into the danger response and stop making energy and doing all these other things, you know? Right.

And, uh, so it's good. So what type of peptides, uh, help mitochondria?

So probably the one, if you know, so if you have some patients, even doctors, who are kind of looking into this. Probably the one they heard about was called MOTS-C, M-O-T-S-C. It's derived from the gene of the mitochondria, the mitochondrial DNA, of which there are 37 genes. And MOTS-C is shown to really help bolster basically energy production. It does lots of stuff. That's wonderful. It can increase its own production when it gets under stress. It helps sensitize the body to insulin. And so we haven't even discussed that part, inflammation and insulin resistance, which is the foundation of chronic disease. So these mitochondria work to decrease insulin resistance, increase insulin sensitivity and use, stop the process of dying off, meaning stopping apoptosis. So if— excuse me— if the insulted injury and inflammation go too far, they continue to trigger the cell to die, and that can cause a chain reaction. So these peptides help to kind of bolster the gates, kind of fight off that drive to die, and help the cell function better. So, and then other benefits are they also help to burn more fat. And Motsi in particular has actually been shown to kind of have almost the same effect as exercise. And so, and you're probably familiar with this, in longevity and aging everyone's talking about AMPK, the pathway to kind of the pathway to longevity. And that's one of the reasons why there's a lot of talk about metformin, right? Because it seems to have some impact on AMPK. But I'm not completely convinced from the studies. And I'm someone who— I can't take metformin. My stomach doesn't like it. So there are a lot of people who are like that. So, so MOTC helps to drive up that AMPK pathway, stimulating another enzyme called PGC-1α, and that is the kind of the master regulator of energy. It stimulates a whole bunch of nice pathways for longevity and health, and in particular makes mitochondria grow. So if you stimulate that AMPK pathway, PGC-1α goes up, your mitochondria go up, and then you just bolster, uh, cell protection and performance. So yeah, that MOTC has been wonderful, um, and it's shown to increase VO2 in athletes, uh, increase VO2 max and help increase their endurance. So lots of positive benefit with MOTC.

Yeah, and I agree with the AMPK, it was like the hot thing, and I've tried so many AMPK stimulators.

I'm like, you know, I'd rather see like what With MOTS-C, we've had diabetics that all of a sudden they're like, oh my God, I've been on diabetic medication.

Now my hemoglobin A1C went from 7.5 to 5.8. I've lost 25 pounds.

And they're like, oh my gosh, where has this been? Nothing works for everyone. It seems like some people respond better. Right. Many, many, many people feel good with it. They got more energy, brain kind of lights up. What kind of dosing do you typically do with that?

So Moxie, again, depends on the client. Generally, if you're first using it, somewhere between basically 3 to 5— I'm sorry, 5 to 10 milligrams for about 3 or 4 weeks initially, and then you go, uh, just, uh, daily after that. Uh, you can do it, uh, actually a lot of people talk about cycling. And so this is another thing with peptides, uh, particularly with the, uh, this is typically used with a regimen with a growth hormone-like receptor or peptide, and, uh, you should tend to cycle those off. And so, and, and what we do is we usually have people do it for a month at the higher dose and then once weekly for maybe 4 or 5 months and then come off of it and see how the body goes.

Yeah, I think it's always better to cycle, but I don't know, I doubt it when I tell patients to cycle that they're cycling. And yeah, I think it's really good. And so what other peptides kind of go along with it, would you say?

Certainly we like, and our clients like, CJC-1295 with ipamorelin, so the combination.

So which is, if you can explain that, a secretagogue stimulates growth hormone.

Yes, yeah, so these are growth hormone-like peptides that help to interact with the complex network of the growth hormone environment. So we used to just say well, your IGF-1 is low, you don't have enough growth hormone, let's just slam the body with growth hormone, right? And now we're kind of understanding, well, that probably wasn't the best way because it's, it's, it's a, it's a complex system, and each system has its own set of receptors, and they each have a different impact. So you may be bolstering, for example, muscle growth in this pathway, but you might be shutting down liver function over here, because if you're stimulating receptors too much, you get downregulation of receptors, and that can cause imbalance in other systems. So the nice thing about these combination peptides is we don't tend to see that. So we don't see the downregulation of receptors, we see a longer response clinically, uh, and more consistent, and, and it's due to stimulation of multiple pathways in a balanced fashion. So you get all the benefits of growth hormone: greater metabolism, muscle growth, better insulin regulation, and particularly— and this is kind of the key after mitochondrial function— lowering visceral fat. You know, like you said, weight loss. The weight just kind of comes off, and people don't— they go, wow.

And do you think the benefit in insulin resistance is solely due to the loss in body fat, or do you see that occurring before that?

It's again, you have to again think in the complex system. So the insulin resistance most likely is being driven by lots of high intracellular fat, which is creating chronic inflammation inside the cell. That chronic inflammation shuts down the body's ability to respond appropriately, or cells to respond appropriately to insulin, fat accumulates, and they themselves secrete lots of hormones, which again, you and I were probably taught fat is just inert, right? It's just fat, just, you just carry it around. But actually, no, there's about, I think the last count, there's 26 or 27 hormones from fat, and only maybe one of them is good for you. The other is really— right?

Yeah, not a good ratio.

Not a good ratio, right? And so they create inflammation. So, so it's not just about lowering the insulin resistance, it's about lowering the intracellular fat, which by the way decreases aromatization enzymes in the cell, which creates more estradiol. Yeah, that's the association between— and we're kind of getting off track a little bit, but it's fascinating— that was the association people were making with, for example, breast cancer and hormones. We saw all the observation studies showed increased estradiol in breast cancer patients, so therefore estradiol must be the cause, so don't give estrogen to these clients. When actually the estradiol was just an innocent bystander as a product upregulation of aromatase in chronic inflammation. You see lots of estradiol intracellularly, but it doesn't have anything to do with the cancer. It has everything to do with inflammation.

And I don't know, I see this too where it's like all these guys who are low estrogen, who are obese, which they have low testosterone, and they give them the AndroGel which aromatase actually upregulates, and they're making more estrogen than they are testosterone, and they're wondering why they keep gaining weight.

Right.

Yeah.

And it's not the hormone.

You're not doing them any favors.

Right. It's the underlying— it's the root cause underlying process that we're really addressing. And so that's why addressing mitochondrial dysfunction, I think, is just going to open up a whole new world.

Yeah. It seems like you look at everything, it's like the core, right? Fix the mitochondria, right?

Right. And then everything else will kind of, you know, you go upstream, fix the problem, and everything downstream will just almost kind of take care of itself. So, so, so to your answer, uh, it's not like, yeah, you're going to lose weight if you do this and that's going to solve the problem. You have to understand the whole process. And so yes, we may lower inflammation and lower visceral fat. But for this person, it may be because their immune system is just revved up, right? This person, it may be they don't have the nutrients to, uh, to support mitochondrial function. So now we've got to really bolster their mitochondrial function. Yeah, same outcome, same symptoms, different focus in clinical therapy.

Yeah. And let me ask you, how do you approach a patient? Like, what typical test do you do to try to solve this? I was just thinking, like, you have a global understanding, which— I won't say anything bad about me, Dr. Buss— is that, you know, to hone down, it's, you know, I love getting tons of labs right up front. Sometimes it's not practical because there's cost and all those things, What's your kind of special whatever, the Dr. Rice method of getting down to the problem?

Right. Well, it sounds similar to what you do. So yes, in our approach, in this, well, functional approach, but actually it's become more of precision medicine, cellular medicine. Whatever you want to call it now, we actually look at all, as many of your body systems as we can. So yes, we do typical lab work, but we also do functional diagnostic testing. So we do organic acid testing, we do what's called Dutch testing, looking at the relationship between the brain, the pituitary, the thyroid, the gonadal adrenal axis. We do stool testing.

And yeah, Dutch testing kind of gives you adrenals and all the metabolites and all that. And can you mention organic acid testing?

Yeah, so organic acid testing is a simple test. It's a urine test. It looks at about, I believe it's about 85, somewhere around 90 metabolites through the process of the urine. And It breaks down into categories, so I can get an idea if you have toxin overload related to yeast or mold, if you don't have enough healthy bacteria. And in terms of gut health, we know that's a big issue. It's not so much whether you have bad stuff or not. If you don't have the healthy bacteria to, for example, regulate your immune system, because 90% of your immune system's in your gut, you're going to have problems. No matter what you do.

And it's interesting, it's the gut bacteria cause the problems, but also if you're sick, you end up getting bad gut bacteria. Right, right. It's a feed-forward loop. Yeah.

And it's all connected. And so—

Well, it's a cause and a marker.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. And so we can see if, for example, someone has too much Clostridiobacteria. Now, they're not bad by themselves. But they can significantly disrupt neurotransmitter production in the brain. Wow, that's pretty important to know. We can look at oxalate production, lactic acid, and even more importantly, mitochondrial performance. So these— none of these tests are 100%. None of them are going to get—

it's— you paint a picture, right?

You get a picture. Absolutely. So To your point, it is nice that you order all those tests because actually the, the more perspective you have, the more detailed picture you can create for that client. So it's worth it to get all those tests.

Yeah, and it's sometimes hard to convince the patient, hey, spend a little more money, get this, right? And because otherwise you can, you can go down this path, all of a sudden you get a test and, oh my gosh, you missed this, right?

Right.

I'm sure your patients have been a lot of different places, at least ours are, and they want the, uh, the answer, and you're not gonna do the same old test over and over and over, right?

Now, and, uh, so I, I think it's great, you know, it's basically—

I'm sure you're reversing these people that, you know, They might not be the sickest, they might be the sickest, but the quality of life just gets tremendously better.

Absolutely. And I'm sure they come to you as kind of, you know, I've seen 5 other providers, I've been to 3 different specialists, and they're all telling me the same thing, then I'm fine, right? My labs look normal, but doctor, I don't feel fine. And so to your point, you You know, there's a— you need a different approach. And so, yeah, it makes a difference. And not just for now. Again, we're also looking at the client in terms of what are you going to be like when you're 98? Yeah.

Or are you going to make it to 98 unless you do these things? Or you might make it to 98, but you're going to be in a nursing home and, you know, with dementia.

Yeah, having to feed you. Yeah.

And who wants that frailty? And, you know, that's like one of the number one killers. They say, oh, your cause of death is broken hip or, you know, subsequently pneumonia. But what got you there in the last 10 years, you know? Mitochondria also osteoporosis. Instead, they give you meds that stop the breakdown, the of bones or bad bone on top of, you know, basically, uh, good bone on top of bad bone, right? But yeah, I don't know, I just go crazy with the, with the paradigm now.

Yeah.

Um, but, um, let's see, um, well, is there ways to protect the mitochondria?

So sure, uh, so In fact, giving the peptides is a great way to do that. Of course, hormones I'm a big fan of, and I know you are too. In fact, that's what kind of pulled me out of the traditional framework, was I would, you know, hormones were— I thought that was going to be the magic for the rest of my life. It still is, but now we're learning a lot more. So Yeah, peptides, giving the peptides like MOTC. Actually, there's a couple of others. They haven't been ready for primetime in terms of human use, but they're getting close. However, tried and true, exercise, exercise, exercise.

Hey, I love exercise. It's a religion to me. I exercise every 4 months for 8 minutes, but I do my shots every day.

Well, as long as you're in— as long as that exercise period is so intense, you're off.

That's fine. No, I'm on my phone for 4 minutes, so— oh, but yeah, we have peptides to make your body think it's exercising. We have peptides to make your body think it's fasting. So, um, a better life through injections. And I, I think you mentioned, uh, Humanin, uh, 5-Amino-1MQ. Um, some could be hard to come by, but, uh, they're all, all similar. You know, they boost that mitochondrial function, right?

Right. And they offer different, uh, different pathways to do that. So again, the idea of you want to address the complexity to optimize the synergism of your body, and that's what the traditional system tends to minimize. And it's not our fault, we're human beings, and we tend to want to simplify things. Yeah, we want to understand, right?

The standard is one drug, one disease.

Right, right.

And the biggest breakthrough was, hey, they found if you use 2 hypertensive medicines at a smaller dose, it works better than 1. Right. You know, before, remember, we were in med school, if you go up with this drug, the highest dose, if that doesn't work, you start the second one, right? No, start with, you know, they're working on different you know, pathways. And that's what we're learning is, is the key. And not only that, it's much safer, much more effective and much safer. And that's the nice thing about peptides is they don't do one thing where you can just overload it, or it, it does multiple things.

Yeah.

So it gets, it gets balanced.

Um, yeah, so Uh, what's kind of your favorite? Or let's say when a patient comes in, what do you typically— do you start patients right off the bat with mitochondrial peptides, or do you balance their hormones first, or nutrients, or what? Or get rid of fungus if you see it, or dysbiosis, or what's kind of your pathway? So everyone's different, but Yeah, yeah.

And, and, uh, so basically, uh, yes to all the above. So if I think it's appropriate to, uh, just based on what the client's telling me, uh, to start them on something, I will, as long as I don't think it might, uh, be interacting or I need to assess another pathway before I give it. For example, uh, I would love— and I frequently give people, uh, hormones right away. So if you're— especially if you're a woman and you know all the classic hot flashes, night sweats, weight gain, no libido, I don't want my husband to touch me anymore, all that stuff, right?

Yeah, hey, estrogen is a mitochondrial booster.

Absolutely, absolutely.

Yeah, and you look at all these menopausal women and the doctors say, "Don't take estrogen, it'll cause cancer." It's like, okay, you're going to be demented in 10 years, you're going to get Osteoporosis, you're going to be frail, you're going to— right. Oh, it's just— oh, stop it. Right.

And yeah, we forget to look at the other side of the coin. Yeah, don't take that because of this, but what happens if you don't take it, right? Alzheimer's dementia, heart attack, stroke, cancer, osteoporosis, right? So we don't talk to women before menopause about any of these things really, or men for that reason, right?

And the studies even show if you don't give progestin, not progesterone, it's actually— show me the study that shows increases breast cancer.

Um, and the problem is in the literature they confuse progestin and progesterone.

If you want to give someone Breast cancer, give them progestin.

Go right ahead.

If you want to prevent it, give progesterone, you know.

Yeah, and there's a, I don't know if you are aware of Dr. Glazer. She's a breast surgeon, breast cancer surgeon, I believe in the Midwest, Indiana or Ohio. She actually gives her breast cancer patients testosterone.

Oh yeah, it's shown a total decrease.

Right, absolutely.

Did you see my review, Bioidentical Hormone Debate?

Uh, no, I haven't seen that.

Oh, I'll say that it goes through all, everything from clinical to the biochemistry and every study head-to-head. For instance, estriol versus estriol versus estrone, uh, progestin versus progesterone. And shows that women should not be afraid of bioidentical hormones. Of course, it's like, "Yeah, it's a made-up term," and, you know, it's crazy. It's fine. This goes out 15 years ago, uh, and it's proven true, but they don't say, "Oh, it's proven true." They just kind of start doing it, you know, and, uh, more and more drugs are coming out that are bioidentical Right, right. But it's, yeah, it's, it's scary.

Yeah, like peptides. And so that's the nice thing about peptides is if they work, they work. If they don't work, guess what? You don't have— I have, to me, I, to date, I have not seen anyone have any really bad side effects from peptides because they are natural part of the system. And so if they can't bolster it, then that means that there's something else not working. But it's not going to cause a side effect.

Yeah, if you show me a medication that you can give 1,000 times the dose and have no side effects, they can't find a toxic dose. You can't even do that with water.

Right.

So if you want to argue it's safer than water, you know, you'll die if you take 1,000 times the normal dose.

Right. So in that regard, you know, so if a woman comes in and she's not sleeping and she hasn't had a period for a 2-year, you know, I'm gonna put you on progesterone. And within 3 days, they're sleeping like a baby, their mood's better, and I haven't even assessed their estradiol or testosterone yet. My only caveat to thyroid hormone, and I usually give that too just based on symptoms, is I need to understand what's happening with your cortisol. Because I've had a few, and you probably have too, all the typical thyroid hormone symptoms. You give them a little bit and then they feel wired and tired, you know, they don't feel good. It's not the thyroid hormone as the emergency room doctor will tell you, right? Oh, you got too much thyroid hormone.

Especially if you have T3, they blame it. Yeah, and we find with immune dysfunction they're sensitive to everything, you know, it's even with, with a supplement. Patients just react. I tell them, okay, look at the pill for a week, smell it for a week, take a little break. And they're much more likely to have like idiosyncratic response, meaning that it has nothing to do with dose. Like they'll get palpitations and of course they blame the thyroid. Like we had one doctor give 1 microgram, which I'm like, why would you give anyone 1 microgram? It's like Physically, you would never know. It's like, oh my God, you know, it's like, and that's happened to her. Of course, she goes to the doctor, blames us or blames one of our doctors. And she had the same reaction to CoQ10, same reaction to like almost, almost everything, you know. But it's, it's interesting. And one study showed that people that have that look for HHV-6. High incidence of that, that they have human herpes virus 6 infection, which isn't sexually transmitted. It's people with low immunity get it, you know, chronic fatigue syndrome. But it's interesting stuff, you know. It's one of those things, the more you learn, the more, you know, you don't learn— you don't know.

But I wish— I almost wish I didn't have to sleep because, uh, I've got a pile of stuff here to read, and it's just fascinating.

Oh, if I were to show you everywhere around here. Yeah, it's It makes medicine fun though.

It is. And actually, I thought this was what medicine was going to be like when I went to medical school.

We'll see. We'll see who wins the election. We may have to cut that out.

Right. Or we'll use it as a pre— we'll see. We'll play it after November 3rd and see what happens.

Yeah. Yeah. No, but it's— I mean, there's a lot of powers to be that you know, they want the status quo. They think giving everyone healthcare, I mean, it's going to make everyone have horrible healthcare. And I put out a healthcare reform plan, and, you know, I thought it— the thing is, we are like, we think we're, um, uh, you know, basically the opposite of socialized medicine, where we have, you know, freedom of choice, but we don't. We are like— you look at the countries that are so-called more socialist medicine, you name it, Sweden, these things, they have more choices than we do. You go to the pharmacy, you don't have any choice how, you know, how much cost that drug costs. You know, choosing between insurance companies is not choice.

Right. It's crazy. I think they should open up drugs, buy them around the world, right? And just have one department just make sure they're safe and da da da da. And yeah, it's just, it's ridiculous. But anyways, whole other topic.

Yeah, we'd probably have to have a couple of shots of whiskey to finish that conversation.

Yeah, and we end up spending so much more, so much go— I can go on and on, but, um, just goes to even the person who has the power to sell it to the distributors, you know, and he gets 30% cutback right there, 30% higher to that guy. Anyways, uh, it needs a lot of reform, but it's tough trying to move, uh, you know, the powers that be. Uh, it's, it, it's scary. A lot of people are making a lot of money. Um, let's see what, um, you know, I guess the strategies we talked about to improve mitochondrial function, um, and energy production. Anything else that you, you want to talk about that whether with mitochondria or not, some, uh, little key, uh, pearls for patients or Right. Or doctors on listening.

Well, you know, and I think a lot of providers already know this and they sense it and that's part of their frustration and they're looking for a different way. Is in order for us to really optimize people's health, meaning taking you from being sick to getting balanced, from going to balanced to optimized, which is the other side of the coin, we have to do it in a different way. So we have to understand food is medicine. We have to understand that treating the root cause is the only way. We have to understand hormones. We have peptide therapy that can use your body's own natural abilities to thrive. And so we have to get out of the, like you said, the one drug, one problem mindset, simplified mindset. And again, just to accept the complexity of the client. And so, to your point, that's why you need to get all those labs done. It's not just because we want to spend the money. It's we need to understand the client in their health context. They have their own unique health puzzle, and it goes together in their own unique way. And we have to understand that. And the only way to do that is to get a good picture. And so in my regard, mitochondrial function, fitness, and hormones are significant pathways. So most of my clients, just with that alone, get to 70%, 80% of where they want to be. Yeah, yeah.

I think balancing the hormones, give them a little thyroid, less progesterone, and And so many things can be helpful. And while peptides are a tool in the toolbox, they're a damn nice tool.

Very nice tool.

But, uh, yeah, it reminds me, in terms of labs, I remember I went to the lab myself and the phlebotomist was like, oh, it's that doctor that orders all those tests. And I'm like, yeah, what do you think? He goes, I don't know whether he's the worst doctor or the best doctor. I don't know. And I said, I heard he's awesome and the cutest guy too. But so I was messing around with her. Yeah, she never knew, but it's right. They're not happy because they got to draw all these tests, you know?

Right.

And, but it's good for the patient.

It is. And that's what all this is about. It's not about any, it's not about the supplier, supplying medications. It's not about the healthcare system and then bringing in enough clients to make money with procedures. It's about the client. It's about that one person, and that should drive all questions and all approaches.

So yeah, again, patient-focused, you know.

Absolutely. N of 1. That's all it is. One person in the study.

That is.

And have you found— I mean, of course we both read all the studies, and I already studied like this thing is the best thing since sliced bread, and I try it, I'm like, it's not that good. I can't get it to work. So it's interesting how studies are important, but they can also be manipulated. It is true.

And another point is the impact that epigenetics has. Right. And so that's—

That's a great point.

Good point, very good one.

Because you're right, I tried it, right? And it did nothing for me. And Kent, you try it, and man, I mean, you put on muscle, you sleep better, you just feel fantastic. Well, why did it work for you and not for me? Does that make it a bad product? If I just do a study with you in it, it's gonna look great. If I do the same study with me in it, it's gonna be negative. So it's not that the study's bad, it's understanding your epigenetics, your genomics, right? And so—

Yeah, can you talk about the difference between epigenetics, genomics? Yeah, yeah.

So genomics is really looking at, uh, understanding, uh, what your library, your DNA library is. Epigenetics is looking at the factors that, uh, impact how that library is interpreted. And so, understanding your DNA. So, I think most people now understand that your genes are not your fate. Just because you have the gene for insulin resistance, or the BRCA1 gene that runs in your family—

I don't think most people know this. I think it's profound. Or the APOE4, you know.

Right. Right. And so just because you have that gene doesn't mean you're going to get breast cancer or Alzheimer's dementia. However, it means that you have to live a particular lifestyle that doesn't activate that gene, or more importantly, you can tell that gene how to behave. So that's kind of a new concept, right?

Yeah, you can turn on and off. And through one study, and this was a small set of genes, But like Epitalin, another peptide, basically activated 147 genes and basically suppressed like 89 genes, you know. Right. And a lot of these, you know, basically BPC, same thing. You know, they stimulate the growth, suppress the inflammation and all the, you know, all the bad genes. Gut bacteria, huge, same thing.

Oh, huge, huge. And so that's again the beauty, we keep coming back to peptides, that's the beauty of peptides is that the peptides already understand the complex system, meaning they go in, they know what to do. They know what to do in the liver, they know what to do in the brain, the heart, the gut, etc. There's no medication that we can make that can do that. We just don't have the knowledge to do that. So that's the beauty of the peptides, is that it'll understand, uh, what your epigenetics is and actually change the community, right? So it's not about that one gene even, it's about how that gene is interacting with all the other genes in that area.

Oh yeah, we're so far behind. Oh yeah, yeah, we look at one gene, how does this— but you need these genes to be active as well.

Right.

And we are so far behind. And then even the microbiome, just wait, you know, we think how complex that is. Even more important is probably, is probably the virome, right? All the viruses and the bacteriophages that control the bacteria. It's just like exponential, you know, just opens the door.

Yeah. The one, the one approach is you can kind of go 'Whoa, that's just way too much. We can't understand that,' right? Or just kind of look at what our bodies have already been doing, right? And just let it do its job. And so we can do that, and we're closer to that. We're getting closer to understanding all this other stuff, but, uh, that epigenetic— understanding your epigenetics can make a difference. So that's why, for example, uh, the ketogenic diet might work wonders for you Right? Doesn't work for me. In fact, if I go ketogenic for more than a month, I actually, actually start putting on weight because I have the genetics. I have to have a certain amount of carbs to burn fat.

Yeah, right.

And for you, you don't. And so ketogenic is wonderful for you, but that's the difference it can make. And so if I have that genetics and here I am, uh, eating tons of fat, and I happen to have ApoE3/4 or 4/4, what am I doing? I'm not doing myself any good, right?

Yeah.

So understanding your epigenetics, what to eat, why you need it. So it's not just enough to know that, yeah, I need selenium for my thyroid, but what about your glutathione and your hormone production, and how does it work in your brain, in your transmitters?

Yeah, even extreme case like ALS, can have a genetic defect. Well, we're finding we can shut that gene off, you know.

Right.

Yeah, so I agree that I think that was one of those profound statements right there, um, that, that we've heard and for people to remember.

Yeah, and it opens the door, uh, to— for, uh, you as a provider, uh, again, you're already doing it, right? But for providers who are getting into this you can make a tremendous impact on a person's life. So, so I used to work in the— I did work in the emergency department and I was on call. And you probably know, how many thank yous have you gotten? Medicine, right? So yeah, I just, I just intubated you and put you in the ICU and now you're awake 3 days later. Oh, okay, great. When I get to go home? Right. I've gotten more thank yous in this part of my career, uh, than I've gotten in the first part of my career.

Yeah, I did anesthesia for a bit, and it was like you save their life 10 times and you go back, how you doing? Like, I remember you, you're like, yeah, you missed my IV.

Yeah, also prevented your brain from shutting off and your heart topic too. Yeah, that's okay. So yeah, so it's really rewarding. And so, you know, the fact that you all are providing peptides and the education opportunities for other providers, I think is huge because that's— I think that's what people look— other providers in particular are looking for.

So I think we're gonna restart our training program and just so people get good training and not just, you know, money-oriented. So, right, well, I think it's a great interview. Uh, amazing information. Again, profound, you know, thoughts. And I really think, yeah, you're right, we have to get the epigenetic word out. I don't think many, many people know that, but it's such a key.

It is, it's a— it's very important. So, uh, well, it was great, uh, talking with you, and, uh, Yeah, anytime you want to talk, just give me a call. I've got lots of ideas I want to bounce off you.

So, oh no, I'm happy to. I love talking with you and speaking with you. And I think, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge.

Oh, absolutely. Anytime. So the more people we can get on board, the better.

All right. Thanks so much, George.

All right. Thanks, Kit.

You have a great day.

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