Ep 58: Why nonmonogamy may be for you with Karyn Wittmeyer

You are listening to episode number 54 with Karen Whitmire.

If you're someone who wants to make major changes in their life, someone who wants to achieve their goals, or maybe you're someone who knows this is not as good as it gets but you have no idea where to start, on the Reinvent You Podcast, we explore different types of people, their successes and failures, and how they reinvented themselves to create the life they love. It's our hope that from hearing their stories that you too may have more insight into what it takes to build the life that you envision for yourselves. Here to help you do that is performance and life coach Travia Steward.

Today on the podcast, my guest is a transformational life coach who brings humor, passion, and compassion in a journey to help women rise from the ashes of their lives to rediscover their divine inner phoenix. She has over 30 years in recovery. She brings multiple personal experiences and strategies to rediscover who you were before the world told you who you should be. This last year has been so pivotal in her journey to rediscovering her own purpose and her passion to serve others. She is a contributing author for the Women's Health and Wellness Network, and she has appeared on Ladies of Light with Melanie Colton and Ask the Expert with Leticia Johnson. She has her own podcast called Be the Phoenix of Your Own Life, where no subject is off the table. I had such a great conversation with Julie today. We discussed a various array of things. I did love that we— I felt like our energy fed off of one another. She, you know, even though we weren't in the physical room together, I felt like the energy that she brought to the Zoom was as if we were in the same room together. And so today on the podcast, we discussed, you know, how Julie was working through adversity and how she came out on the other side. We also talked about her journey going through sobriety starting at the age of 12 and finding her true self. And then we also talked about the importance of what? Chucking it in the fuck it bucket. That was Julie's challenge that she did on Facebook that she is going to Run Again Sometime, and I just love the name of it. And so we discussed so many other things, and I think you're going to find so much value from this podcast on how to move through adversity and connect with others. So welcome to episode number 53 with Julie Paulston. Today on the Reinvent You podcast, my guest is Karen Whitmire. Karen is a mental health and sex therapist who works primarily with LGBTQ+ and non-monogamous clients through her private practice in Washington State. This isn't Karen's first career though. She used to work in financial services, climbing the male-dominated ladder from financial advisor to director of operations of a hedge fund until she found existing in that world going against the values that she wanted to carry forward in her life. Today on the podcast, we delve into Karen's background. We talk about defining certain terms like non-binary, what is pansexual, how she was molded, molded by her environment. We talk about the, the characteristics and, and, and the boundaries to set for having a polyamorous relationship, how to know if monogamy is for you, and how she creates more alignment for her clients. We delve into so much more. I enjoyed this conversation with Karen, and I certainly learned a ton. So ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Reinvent You Podcast, Karen Whitmire. All right, joining me on the Reinvent You Podcast is a sex therapist, right? Yeah. If anybody knows me personally, they know one of the things in my top 10 categories of things to talk about is sex. And so I have never had a sex therapist on the podcast. So Karen Whitmire, welcome to the Reinvent You Podcast. I'm so excited to jump right in.

Thank you. I'm happy to be here.

Very cool. So before we get into the, the meaty questions, you know, would you mind introducing yourself, you know, outside of just a sex therapist? So that my audience has some context as to what Karen does and who— how she shows up in the world.

Yeah, I guess I'm— as far as identities go, right, I guess I'm a pansexual, non-monogamous, you know, white girl from the Midwest. And I, you know, I grew up in kind of a middle upper middle class life in Kansas, and which really gave me one set of values. And then later in life, you know, I moved around a little bit.

Right.

After I grew up and became an adult and eventually moved out to Seattle, and I got a very different view of the world. And it really changed a lot of my values. And even though I've been, you know, I came out as bisexual at 16, and I've really been non-monogamous my whole life. I just didn't know that that was a thing that existed. Like, I didn't realize that you were cheating on all your partners.

Yeah.

I'm like, what is going on? This does not feel right. Wow. So, you know, even after, after all of that, I, um, I moved out here and, and a lot of my values sort of updated.

Mm-hmm.

I guess I would say I learned a lot more about myself, about other people especially. And that really changed my values. Um, and, and I kind of had to remake myself to, and the career that I had originally chosen to really get into the more authentic me.

Oh, I love that. So I wanna kind of dissect that a little bit. So when you were growing up, you know, this is exactly why you fit the mold for this show. It's like you were molded to be someone, you're like, you know, that place, that conditioning defined my values. What were some of those values that you took on that you identified with that just let go of, which I know, non-monogamy. But what else did you— were you able to kind of morph into?

Yeah, yeah. So, and I want to say my parents are great, like I love them dearly. They were good people. Um, and so the values that they instilled into me aren't bad by any means. They just quit being me at some point, right? And some of those values included, um, financial stability was a big one because they grew up in poverty. They grew up with not, um, as much. And so they were— that was really important for me to get a college education and, you know, develop some financial stability and have a career that could, you know, provide me with an income and always make sure I take care of myself. Um, and, and so it was good value to have, but at some point it quit serving me, right?

Okay. Okay.

So that's just one of them. And they're, you know, my mom's very monogamous person. She's very loyal. And, um, even though my parents got divorced young, um, when I was young, when I was 3 they got divorced, it was very important for her. She, you know, went out, got married again a couple years later, and she's very much instilled that sort of like, you know, loyalty kind of narrative in me, right? Um, and at some point, like, I kept banging my head against the wall of like, why am I so bad at this? Why am I so bad at it being a monogamous person, right?

Right. Wow. And so did you find that like at an early age, like, were you like 16 going, I don't want to be with one guy or one person?

Um, it came out in other ways, right? So for instance, you know, one of my early partners, um, wanted more sex than I did in the relationship, and I kept being like, why don't you just go out and find another girlfriend and have sex with her, you know, and leave me alone a little bit? I'll just stay home and play video games, right? Like, come home to me. Yeah, or whatever. Yeah, like, that's fine.

Okay.

I don't even— I didn't think even that far through it, right? I just was like, leave me alone, go find another partner, go outsource the sex, right?

Yes.

And, um, and, you know, he's insulted by this. Like, you want to break up? You want to? And I'm like, no, I just really just want some space. Like, okay, your needs met somewhere else. And that's fine with me. Like, I don't need to be your everything, right?

Wow.

I had a really hard time accepting, like, why does being in a relationship with someone automatically, like, give you command over their genitals? Like, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, right? It confused me. And I hadn't heard that message anywhere. I was just like, why? But why?

Yeah.

And so it came out in these little ways, like, cool, questioning these little ways.

Yeah. And so those were innate things. It wasn't like you were hanging around with certain people who are like, who are all non-monogamous and you're like, I want to be like them. These were thoughts that you were having that were coming up naturally.

Yeah. No, I didn't know anyone that was non-monogamous. In fact, the first time I came across it, um, I, I'd actually been I had just gotten out of a really unhealthy relationship because I had cheated, uh, and I had, uh, was really hurt. Like, I was like, why do I do this? Why am I doing this? Why did I do that? Like, I feel like crap. I shouldn't be doing that kind of thing. That's not cool, right? So I was really down on myself, and I— someone in my periphery was doing an open relationship and being honest with their partner about it. And I rebelled against it. I was like, oh, it's never going to work. So my initial reaction to it was actually sort of this disbelief that it could be a thing, that it could work.

Right. Wow. So you said a few minutes ago that you identify— I feel like such a dummy when it comes to all of the terms, to be honest. You know, I— like, for instance, you identify as pansexual. Like, define that for me and for the audience who has no clue, because I don't— I wouldn't know. I would just guess at something.

Yeah, yeah. The way that I see it in myself is, um, I, I'm not attracted to, right, a hyper-masculine, hyper-feminine. And I'm not attracted to say, um, society's ideas about masculine and feminine.

Okay.

I'm, I'm attracted to people, right? Right. And whatever they have between their legs is, is okay. Inconsequential to my attraction to them.

Okay.

Whatever, however they present themselves is inconsequential. I like people all across the gender spectrum.

Right.

And, and it's really not about that. I can find attractiveness across the gender spectrum.

Okay, okay. So what is the difference? Like, like, I find, like, I identify as, as gay, as lesbian, right? And so, but now the term is queer. Like, everybody, like, like, so what's the difference? Like, why, why is it that people are identifying more as queer? Like, I always, when I think of the word queer, I think of like, oh, in the '70s, you know, kind of thing. Why has queer come back?

Yeah, and I forgot to ask, is it okay to curse?

Absolutely, curse your little heart out.

Yeah, what— when I— so when I think of queer, what I think of is fuck your norms, right? Okay, fuck your labels, fuck your norms. I'm just queer, right? And it is my— my gender is fuck your gender norms, my sexuality is fuck your norms, right? Like, it's not— it's a label that is undefined It's, you know, screw you when you're trying to put me into a box.

Okay.

In general. And it's a reclaiming of a word that has traditionally been used to discriminate.

Okay. Right. That's so true. And so, you know, so queer can be attributed to, I mean, I guess gay is like male and female. So queer is used interchangeably, just like, you know, just gay.

Yeah.

Okay. Okay. Wow. This is so fascinating. I love this. So, Karen. Yeah. I know that, you know, I can't actually— now I'm like, I can't— I think I saw it. Was it, was it in your bio that you are in a polyamorous relationship?

Yep.

Right. One of my favorite shows that came on Showtime a few years ago was Polyamory. I was so intrigued by it because You know, before that show, again, I'm showing just how I feel like I've been living in a box sometimes. The only people that I'd heard of who were, you know, non-monogamous were like David Koresh with all those wives, the Mormons, you know, that kind of thing.

Yeah.

How did that become— and I know you were non-monogamous, but how do you enter into a relationship with two other people? Like, is there like a club you join? How do you have that conversation?

Yeah, well, it was difficult because I originally opened up a relationship that had been closed, right? We'd been in a monogamous relationship for a long time. And especially when I had asked multiple times, I want to open up, I want to open up, I want to open up, and I kept getting no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, right. Eventually, I ended up— because I— we, at the time, this was over a decade ago, we didn't really have a lot of books. There wasn't much in the media, like it just wasn't very common out in the world. There wasn't a narrative for it out in the world. So I eventually, again, found myself cheating, got caught, and I was like, I have to have an open relationship, or I need to be out of this relationship. And so we decided to open up, and we found another couple to date. And it kind of went on from there. So it was a hard conversation to have, and it didn't go well. And when I talked to, over the years, a lot of the people that I've talked to, like, we, um, we ended up starting like a non-monogamy group where people can join the group. And before COVID times, like, there were monthly events where a bunch of people would meet up at a bar somewhere, or, you know, people could make their own events, smaller events, um, game night, whatever, uh, and you meet other people that way, right? So you're already meeting people who are non-monogamous.

Okay.

Um, or you put it in your profile on OkCupid or whatever. Um, so there's like those avenues for it, but you know, it's a really hard conversation to have, uh, when you're trying to open up. And a lot of the people that I've talked to over the years, like, that's how they've ended up accidentally opening up their relationship, right? Like, um, having to go out and cheat or somehow otherwise destruct their relationship that they're in because they, they feel this, um, this pressure, uh, that they, they don't know how to get out of.

Right, right. So I know that you work with, you know, you work primarily with LGBTQ non-monogamous clients.

Yep.

What, what are some things that, that someone could identify with if they know, oh, that's it, I don't really want to be with just one person because I'm experiencing this? Is it just that I don't want to have sex as much as my partner does? You know, what else are the characteristics that if someone's listening right now, they're like, oh, I totally identify with what Karen's saying?

Yeah, and much like sexuality, I consider it a spectrum thing, right? Um, where some people are just built to be monogamous, they don't want the complications, because being non-monogamous is complicated, right? You have to be able to communicate with multiple people, you have to keep schedules straight, you have to like manage the— help manage the emotions of multiple people, or right in your mind when you're You're making considerations. And if you don't do that well, it's gonna be really hard. Right. Okay. It's gonna be really difficult. You're gonna learn a lot. Um, so the question is, are you willing to do the work, right? Or do you want to do the work to be a better partner and be able to manage multiple relationships, whatever that may look like. Right.

Right.

Because non-monogamy looks like a lot of different things. You could just have one main partner and a, a bunch of hookups. Right. You could decide that you and your partner are going out to look for other couples to have sex with, you know, with no emotional entanglements. Right.

Right.

And, and, you know, we gotta figure out how to negotiate boundaries and have these conversations about expectations and all these other things. It's, it's, it is relationship like on extra hard level, right? It is not easy to do. Right. So you, you both have to be like, okay, it sounds, you know, like something I kind of want to do. And also I'm willing to do the work to make it work.

Okay.

I see a lot of people open up and they're like, oh my goodness, this is an insane amount of work, right? Or they open up and they screw it all up. And that's what they come to me. We screwed it all up. Um, because they didn't have enough conversations, or they didn't know what conversations to have because we have no models of how to do this in society. We've got like 4 TV shows and like 2 books. Well, we've got more to go at this point, but like not many, right?

Right, right.

So it's hard work.

And when in your life did you feel comfortable to have these open discussions? Like, we're talking about this on a podcast, and I know you've long passed that, but like, when did that happen for you? Because it's It's so, you know, taboo.

Yeah. I've— the only place I've ever been shy was in my previous career at work. Just because I was in such a traditional, like, male patriarchal dominated, you know, world in my previous career. But like my family, I never— I've always been sort of the one that was just like, you know, screw your expectations and like, I'm going to be who I am. And I've always felt safe to do that in my family. Um, so I've always had that privilege in that way. And, you know, with my friends, I've always just said things and like, if you don't accept me for who I am, then I don't really need you as a friend anyway. So, right, ever. Um, so I've never had a problem really speaking up about it.

Okay, so have you lost friends because of it, because people didn't agree with your lifestyle?

Not really. Uh, I find it interesting, I've never had a huge number of friends. I've always had more like close, a few close friends, right. And even a lot of the friends that I've, that I still have from high school, I mean, they're still, they're spread around the United States, but the people that I was friends with in Kansas in high school are still like, the outcasts, but they're just in different states now. Right. So yeah, like, oh, that sounds cool. And you know, whether they do it or they're still monogamous, they're like, yeah, it's fine. You know, it's not a problem.

Right.

It's not been— no one that I know of. I don't know, maybe people have left me and I've just not noticed. I don't know.

It didn't mean anything to me. I didn't notice. It's been 6 months since they've contacted me. Yeah, I love it, love it. So when you talk about being your authentic self, like, I love that. That is a lot of the work that I do with my clients as well. Do you feel like— like, what were some of your core— outside of your sexuality now, but what were some of the— your core things where you felt like you weren't being authentic? And then how do you apply that to your work with your clients when they come to you? And, you know, like, I know you work with communication, but how do you get them aligned based on how you were able to align yourself?

Yeah, I actually do a very pointed exercise with them called a— called a values, um, values card sort. Is Originally, when I was seeing clients in mid-person, I'd have a deck of cards and I'd be like, oh, pick out the 5 values that you feel like really talk to you, right? You want to put forth. And this was based on something that I was doing when I was in my old career, was in financial services, doing, um, working in a small office. And I had just discovered at that point in my life that it felt really bad. I didn't like the way that it wasn't aligning with my values of helping people that were needing the help, right? I was basically just helping rich people get richer. And it wasn't fitting in with what I really wanted to do with my life. And I wasn't making any friends in that, in that industry. Like I wasn't coming out with work friends, which felt really strange to me. I make friends everywhere I go. How am I not developing work friends? That was clue to me that something wasn't lined up, right? That my values weren't the same as, as the other people that I was working with, and therefore maybe my values in that industry weren't lining up with my personal values, right? So I sat down with a list of values, and I picked out what my values were. And I saw that those values didn't really fit in with the job that I had, right? They were fitting in with the community. So I was like this, you know, office working, um, director of operations by day in this industry, and like going out at night with different people. I was dating a lot at that time and meeting a lot of people and doing a lot of sexy things. And like, I just felt like two very different people existing in one person, and that didn't feel good. And those two people had very different values. Um, and I didn't like that anymore. So I sat down with the list and came up with like, oh, community, autonomy, you know, uh, charity, that kind of stuff, um, as my values. And I was like, I gotta find the career that really lines up with these values, right?

And that's when you went back and got your, your license in, in therapy, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so I, I saw on your website that you specialize in— like, I'm again so curious about like When we're talking about like one of the bulleted items on your website talks about identity development, including sexual and gender identity. So let's say some— what would be the issue that that person comes to you? Like they don't know their gender, how to define it. What do you do under that bullet point?

Yeah, a lot of that involves really people needing to pick apart, right? Ask a lot of questions about, so what You know, what aspects of my gender do I want to express? Right? How do I want to express my gender? Is this bright clothing? Is it skirts? Is it, you know, or is it— do— are there— are these aspects, I only want to express them because that's what I picked up from society, right? Am I only wearing skirts because that is what my mom taught me to wear because I was raised in the body of a female, even though I don't really feel female, right? And then especially when it comes to having to make other decisions about starting hormones, like, I don't feel particularly like this. There's something about the body that doesn't feel right. And I might want to start hormone therapy. So like, why? This is what it's going to do. So I might provide some psychoeducation about like how hormones might shift emotions around or sensations in the body around. And does that feel like it might align with, you know, what you're thinking and what you're feeling? Right. So, you know, some of it's psychoeducation and some of it's helping people, guide people through like picking out what's true to them versus what's the narrative society has given them based on the body that they were born into. Right.

And see, I love that when you're talking about the narrative that society has given them, because You know, that, that's exactly what happens, not just in our sexuality, but we're molded to be these people because of our conditioning in society. And so, you know, this— what do you say to someone who goes, you know, because, you know, the— there's a lot in the media about, you know, you know, transgender. What do you say to someone who goes, it's a male or a female, and that's all God made? What is your— how do— what's your comeback when you interact with someone like that?

I don't tend to interact with people who say that a lot.

Right, right. Okay.

To be honest. And part of that, part of that is I don't think I'm going to be able to change their mind most of the time because they're pretty— the information that they're getting, the sources that they're getting it from, what they see as an authority is very different from what I see as an authority. They don't see me as an authority. They don't see me as information that is necessarily true. That doesn't mean I can't chip away, right, at what's going on for them. So instead of being like, oh, but the science says something else, which they might not trust science, right? It's not important to them. They don't see it as an authority. I might start to question them. Well, why do you believe that? Where is that coming from? What's going on for you that it's important that that needs to be true? Right? Absolutely. So you got to go for the Socratic questioning, Socratic method, to start to pick apart why they need that to be true. What stakes do they have in it before you can even get to how you might start to pick that apart and maybe give them a different viewpoint? Right.

Okay. Right.

So I would have to go down quite a line before I can even get into like, oh, well, I would attack it from this angle or this angle or something like that.

Right. Okay.

Okay. Right.

Yeah. No, it does make sense. I just know, you know, Like, I'm from Louisiana, and so, which is a very, very red state, and you know, where they make comments like, you know, are you going to be a zebra next? You know, that kind of thing. And so just speaking to those things, and, and I don't honestly know enough. I mean, I can, I can talk to that, you know, because I taught theater for 24 years. And so not knowing where I fit for most of my life was a little difficult for me as well. So I get that. And I love that I provided an environment for my students who were like, I'm pansexual, I'm gender neutral, I'm, you know, you know, just so many different things. And I was like, you're all— everybody's welcome here. And they felt comfortable in there. You know, I think that one of the main things is how do you— like, if you had to say Because, you know, it's LBT— LGBTQ, and then it's like I and then A. If, if someone wanted to get educated from this episode of the podcast, what would you say are the main things to know about people? Like, like, sometimes it's like you don't know if they're pronouns, but like, if like, how can they be more PC than they are right now than going, it's male or female, that kind of thing? What would be the like the main categories, if they couldn't remember the whole list of identities, what could they use? Does that make sense?

You mean like if, if we needed to educate people on just a couple of key identities?

Yes. Yes.

What might help them grasp more than just male and female? Yes.

Yes.

So I would go next would, would be non-binary.

Right, okay.

Just intersex and non-binary, probably, as far as, um, gender goes.

Okay.

Because intersex— and the reason I say intersex is because when you have people insisting just male and female, there are people who are intersex, right, who have both male and female sex organs.

Oh, and so what you were talking about with intersex, I've never heard that term.

I thought that was—

I thought—

here we go— I thought that was like her—

a hermaphrodite. Well, basically the hermaphrodite is a derogatory term for intersex.

Oh, I didn't know that.

Yeah.

So, okay.

Yeah. Intersex just means that is someone who was born with both male and female sex organs, right. And in various configurations. Right. And oftentimes what happens is in childbirth, the doctor, what used to happen in childbirth is the doctor would just pick one, whatever was easier, whatever sex was easier and do surgery on the genitals. To turn that person into that sex.

Okay.

Right. And then the parents were instructed to raise that child in that sex. Well, this has caused some problems where they grew up, their hormones were not that sex, and there were problems later. And there are case studies where these children found out many, many years later that they were intersex children. They were forced to be raised as one gender, and then they were actually the other gender, and they ended up having a horrible time because of it, right?

Right.

They never felt right because they never felt— they always knew something was off, right? So we've started to, as a society, not do that with intersex children. Right.

So, so would, would that person be identified as intersex, or would they be non-binary?

That's for them to decide later how they want to be identified, right?

Okay.

Give them that agency, right?

Right.

It's their life. They get to have a choice, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

And it's, that's the thing is we don't have a way to do that. We like let the parents do that, but then what if the parents choose wrong and that child is like, has an internal experience? It's very different from their external experience.

Wow. Have you ever heard of the play Baby with the Bathwater?

Uh, yeah, yeah.

I directed that show, and part of the joke is like, oh, we're just gonna call, call him Daisy. Yeah, we're just gonna let him decide later. And that was comedy, and that, that is now real life. But that play was written years and years ago. Wow. So define non-binary for me, please.

I would be for people who don't feel like they really have a gender. They don't experience gender within themselves in a way that really makes sense. Or you might get people who experience gender fluidity, right? Where one day they feel more male inside, one day they feel more female inside. And I'm really simplifying things at this point.

Yes.

So they might use they/them pronouns. And there are a lot of other pronouns, ze/zir, that they might decide fit them better.

Okay.

So they'll, they'll, and, and just because someone is non-binary doesn't mean that they owe you androgyny, for instance. Right.

Okay.

You might have someone who feels non-binary, but likes to present feminine or likes to present masculine. Right. Right. Um, so it, and that's fine. Like that's their choice. They, they have that agency.

Right.

But they just don't necessarily internally have a sense of gender.

Right. See, that makes so much— thank you so much. I feel like you're having to be so patient with me here, and I should know these things, but I don't. Like, when a few years ago I had a student who identified as, you know, born a female but identified as a male, and then like wore male clothing every single day. And then one day out of the blue, you know, they had on like a dress, high heel makeup, and then it just totally threw me off. And I was like, like, and it didn't make sense for me to call them the male name that day. And so I was close enough with my students to where I could say, okay, so-and-so, I need you to help me out. Explain to me, like, what is— is today different? What's, what's different? And they said, just look at it like a costume. I just felt like this today. I was like, okay, okay, all right. I just needed to know.

Yeah.

And so I just didn't, you know, because some people would look at that because again, because of society, we go, if you're wearing a dress and you're a female, Mm-hmm. Right. And so, wow. So what would you, what would you say to, let's say like, you know, like a college professor who's looking at a roster of names and then, you know, with COVID we're on Zoom and then maybe sometimes you can't tell on Zoom, but they have just, I mean, a name, you know, Casey, Casey can be male or female. How do you get around? Because sometimes it can be like, oh, well, he said, and then they're offending Casey because Casey's actually a she. Or maybe— how do you get around that as a professor who's trying to say the right things but is offending someone because they just don't know?

Yeah. So if you'll notice, we're on Zoom now. I have, I have my pronouns after my name. A lot of, especially people who are non-binary, And, and especially people who are, you know, in the know or whatever, right. They will put their pronouns after their name if they're in—

okay.

Um, people who are used to be like, kind of used to this, especially society is starting to adjust to this, right. We'll just correct you. Right. And, and if you get corrected on someone's pronouns, don't make it a big deal. Don't make a huge apology about it. Just be like, oh, I'm— I apologize. I will try better in the future. Right.

Right.

And, and move on. Don't make it a big deal. Right.

Okay.

And just do better in the future.

Okay. Okay. Thank you for that. I appreciate it. So I want to go back to the bulleted items real quickly.

Yeah.

So some of the work that I've done with Stephen Gilligan— do you know who Stephen Gilligan is? Okay. He does a lot of somatic work. And so recognizing, you know, what comes up in your body. What is the type of somatic work that you do with your clients?

Yeah. So a lot of the work that I do comes from Stephen Porges and Deb Dana.

Okay.

So it's, it's called polyvagal and it's, it's work with the automatic nervous system. Right. So you've got the ventral vagal, which is the, the social engagement system. And then you've got the sympathetic nervous system, which is the fight or flight. And then you've got the dorsal vagal, which is the shutdown. Right. So I help people learn when they're in each of these states. Okay. So when do you feel safe and secure? When do you feel good about engaging with the people in life? When do you feel like you're getting pushed into fight or flight? Right. When do you feel like you need to shut down and dissociate? Right. So I help people start to identify when they're in these states, how long they get— tend to get stuck in these states, and how do they start to move out of these states, right?

Right.

So they can start tracking. A lot of times when, especially because I work with couples, is, oh, I get angry and I just fly off the handle. Right. So, oh, let's start to slow that down by noticing what's going on in your nervous system.

Right.

You'll recognize when you're already primed for that kind of thing, and you'll notice how to stop yourself before you just go off the handle.

Right. I love that. You know, and so, because that's some of the work that I've learned, like with working with Stephen Gilligan, because I noticed, you know, my top values are love and connection. And I immediately notice in my body when I'm not leading from those values, because, you know, I like, I'm not looking people in the eye. I put my hands in my pocket. I am shifting my weight a lot instead of, you know, so yeah, I'm noticing somatically what's happening. What is, what is a little bit like, let's say you wanted to help somebody out right now. What, What are a couple of tips you can help them when they're noticing their bodies do it is, you know, whether you're in polyvagal or dorsal vagal, you know, what, what is it like a nice little tip or maybe an exercise that you could give them to help them work out of that?

Yeah. So one of the first things I do is I have them start accessing their, their safe. What are your safe and connected spaces? When do you feel connected with people? When do you feel safe with people? When do you feel safe when you're alone or connected when you're alone to spaces outdoors or, or whatever. So when you start feeling yourself dipping into fight or flight, oh, I'm sensing my heart rate's going up. I feel tense, like my shoulders are at my ears. Okay, I need to go lay down and maybe think about that person or that place and help calm my nervous system down a little bit. Or if you're already in a really elevated base and just thinking your way out of it isn't working, put some ice on the back of your neck.

Oh, just shock it.

Yeah, that'll, that'll chill you right out.

Okay.

It'll really chill you out.

Right, right. And so that's cool. So would they just breathe, you know, deep breaths, breathing them away, their, their way out of it?

Sometimes. Now, people who have a panic disorder like I do can sometimes have real difficulty with, uh, breathing exercises.

Okay.

So I will actually give myself a panic attack if I'm control— over-controlling my breathing. Too much. So I don't even— depending on what the person is going through, I don't even start with the breathing right away. I start with other things, and that's just personal preference, right?

Right.

And, and if they've done breathing before, I might expand on the breathing and the breathing has helped them, but I tend to not start there. Just personal stuff.

Wow. Okay, very cool, very cool. So, Karen, what is the work outside of couples like when, when someone— because, you know, everybody hasn't gone to your website yet But if someone's listening, they can go, Karen does these main things. What are those things in your work with, with clients they come to you for?

I think the non-monogamy is the biggest one, like navigating boundaries and communication in non-monogamy. I'm actually putting together a course right now on how to have the STI conversation, like how to have safer sex conversations about like, you know, how do you navigate like making sure that everyone's on same page. Like, you're having sex with multiple people, you should be getting tested for STIs and having that discussion with everyone you're having sex with, right? So I'm putting together courses for that. Okay. And then, you know, people come to me for a lot of different stuff related to that. Anxiety is a big one, just because I do have an anxiety disorder and I know a lot about how to treat it.

Right.

And there's a lot of anxiety in non-monogamy. So it always comes up. Um, and then because sex, uh, often the number one problem is desire discrepancy in relationships. There is always one person who wants more sex and one person who wants less sex in a relationship.

Right, right, right.

All of them everywhere. It is totally normal for that to be a thing. Variation is the norm. So, you know, that, that's kind of the other big thing that ends up in my office. I also work with, um, out of control sexual behaviors or what other people might refer to as sex addiction, but I don't like that term. Right. Out of control sexual behaviors. It's another big one.

Okay. Okay. Nice. So would you say someone getting into a polyamorous relationship, like before, like when we're like, you know, it's like We have decided we're in this. Is that the time where you're like, let's— do you create boundaries, rules? This is a contract. How— or is it just that, you know, it's like, my word is— but like, how— what's, what's the official way of, of, of determining the container in which you'll have that relationship?

Oh yeah, I think that's a much longer process than most people give it credit for. Yeah, they might come up with like, I've got 5 rules, like no sleepovers, no having sex with new people without talking to me first. Like, they have 5 very practical, very concrete rules that half of them end up not being terribly enforceable. Okay, right. So I would, um, actually start with like, oh, what are your values? What do you see? Like, what's the vision of what you want, right? And then, um, you know, what So create boundaries around how do you feel safe, right?

Right.

Inside of that vision. And then like, how, how do these boundaries get enforced? Right? What does that look like? Because the boundaries, when the people first tend to set them up, become an exercise in mind reading. They end up being an exercise in mind reading. Right, right. Like, and so it can become very difficult. And half the time I'm working with people, I'm like, You know, let's talk about your boundaries and, and what you're actually expecting out of them, what you're trying to do with them, because what you're trying to do isn't what's actually getting accomplished, right?

Okay, very cool. Now I know this is you, so this question is, I did like, again, I think I pulled this from your website. I've conducted preliminary research on, is it metamour?

Metamour relationships, yeah.

What is a metamour relationship?

That's the partner of my partner. Right. So my partner's other partner. Uh, yeah. So my, my boyfriend has another girlfriend, right. And I've been with my boyfriend for 8 years and he's been with her for 7 and a half years. So I have, she is my metamour. She's also a good friend. Right. We go on vacations together all the time. Um, also I live with 2 partners. They aren't dating each other. So they're technically metamores. They're also roommates. They're also friends, right? But metamore is a good descriptor of a relationship because a metamore, you don't always like your metamore. Sometimes you really hate your metamore for a lot of reasons. Sometimes you don't even know who your metamore is, right? So metamore is really just very descriptive of like partner's other partner.

Okay. Okay. So, so you're, you actually, and you can tell me if I'm getting too personal, but I just want to, I just want to understand. So you have— you're in a polyamorous relationship, but one of your boyfriends who's in the polyamorous relationship has another partner, and that makes— oh, so that's— so the outside partners are metamores?

Yeah, yeah.

Okay, okay. So wow, okay. And so what, their outside partners also have partners?

Yes.

Okay, okay.

It becomes a big giant web, messy web after Yeah. Okay, how do you, how do you keep from getting jealous?

You know, and, you know, so like, I'm jealous right now going, you looked at her like that, you've never looked at me like that, how dare you! And oh my God, he didn't make you— oh yeah.

So jealousy is about insecurity, right? It's about being insecure in something in the relationship. And, you know, there's a myth that that somehow non-monogamous people don't get jealous. Um, and that's not really what's going on. It's, it's that non-monogamous people figure out— people who are, who stick around with it, right?

Right.

Figure out how to deal with their jealousy. They figure out how to tackle their insecurities, right? They learn that their jealousy is about them and what they're experiencing, and they figure out how to work through that and how to ask figure out what their needs are and ask for their needs in ways that are not damaging. Right.

Got it.

So, right. I experienced jealousy at the beginning. It was definitely a common thing, but we've— I've been at this long enough that I've gotten to a place where now I just like, oh, I have a need. I go ask for the need. I accept it if it's a no and figure out how to get the need somewhere else.

Right.

And then, you know, just navigate it better.

I love that. Karen, thank you so much. This has been so incredible. Are you open to taking in new clients right now?

Uh, we can try. There might be, depending on like when they're hearing this, right, there might be space, there might not be space, right? Couple therapy, you're always trying to help people graduate, right? You always want people to be graduating. So sometimes there's space and sometimes there isn't, right?

Can you work with them through Zoom? Like, do they have to live in your area? Can they live across wherever?

Um, they have to be in Washington State just because of licensing requirements, but I can work with them anywhere in Washington State because I plan on being on telehealth indefinitely into the future.

Okay, okay. So just the final question is, how can they connect with you? Like, you know, throw out your details, those types of things, because somebody's listening right now and they're going to go to the website. I'm also going to put in the show notes, but how— what's your preference, your preferred way of being contacted?

Yeah, there's a contact me button on my website at branchingoutwellbeing.com.

Okay, all right. And then, yeah, and then is it okay if they email you at the Karen? Okay, perfect. So Karen, I have been educated today. I'm gonna go back and listen to— of course I'm gonna edit it shortly, but I'm also gonna go back and listen to it, you know, a couple more times because you really gave us a lot of information and it's a lot of stuff that I didn't know. And so I thank you so much for you. I think you brought a ton of value to the episode today, to the podcast in general. So thank you so much for that. I appreciate you so much.

Yeah. Thank you for letting me be here today. I appreciate it.

If you like what you're hearing and perhaps you're interested in having a complimentary conversation with me, click the link at the bottom of the show notes. Thank you so much for listening. If you even want to know more about what I'm up to, head to traviestewart.com. And if you like seeing the videos of the podcast, every episode is on my YouTube channel. Take care, guys.