Ep 60: Reinventing after a homicide with Jan Canty

You are listening to episode number 60 with Jan Canty.

If you're someone who wants to make major changes in their life, someone who wants to achieve their goals, or maybe you're someone who knows this is not as good as it gets, but you have no idea where to start, on the Reinvent You Podcast, we explore different types of people, their successes and failures, and how they reinvented themselves to create the life they love. It's our hope that from hearing their stories, that you too may have more insight into what it takes to build a life that you envision for yourself. Here to help you do that is performance and life coach Travia Steward.

My guest today on the Reinvent You podcast is Jan Canty, who is a psychologist. She is also host of her own podcast called The Domino Effect of Murder. She is also an author of A Life Divided. She's a cancer survivor and a homicide survivor. Today on the episode, we discuss a various amount of things from how Jan navigated the murder of her husband, how she reinvented herself when she really didn't have a choice, working through her conflicted grief, things that inspired Jan, the legacy that she wants to leave through the work she's doing, and some things that inspired her. Join us as we delve into it right now. All right. Whoo, guys, I am welcoming to the Reinvent You podcast, Ms. Jan Canty. I have been really, really anxiously waiting, excited about this conversation because it's no conversation that I've ever had on the Reinvent You podcast. Because she is just so different and her story is just so incredibly exciting. So, Jan Canty, first of all, welcome to the Reinvent You podcast.

Well, thank you for having me, Travia. I appreciate it.

Absolutely. Absolutely. So, you know, this podcast is all about reinventing yourself. And when we think about reinventing you, I always think about Oh, reinventing after 50, reinventing after you've been fired from a job. But Jan, I know you have quite the different story in the example of reinventing yourself. So can you give us a little bit of how Jan reinvented herself at a time in her life when she kind of— it wasn't by choice. She had to reinvent herself because of unforeseen circumstances.

Yeah, sometimes it's under your control, and sometimes life knocks on your door and you have no option.

Right.

Mine, mine was the latter of the two. I was leading a fairly conventional life, plugging along, and within 2 months short of my postdoctoral fellowship. So I've been in school for a long time, and life was just about ready to open to me. I was married 11 years to a, what I thought was a very reliable, honest individual with not a lot of drama. I mean, he got along well with my family, was very supportive supportive of my education until I wanted to go for my doctorate. Then he kind of got a little preoccupied around that and more sullen, I guess you'd say. At any rate, I was within 2 months shy of finishing my training when he failed to come home one night, which was quite unlike him. He was a very reliable person, always punctual. He was a psychologist and 18 years my senior. And this particular night was a raging summer storm in Detroit. It was hail, wind, rain, and just a pretty bad event all the way around. And I was watching a 3-hour special on AIDS. And I saw— I lost track of time. And I looked up and it was 10 o'clock, and we had agreed he'd be home at 7. And I'm like, it can't be that late. And I called his office. This is before cell phones and internet, of course, and didn't get an answer. So I was concerned. So I, by midnight, I called my neighbor. We went down to his office and he wasn't there. He'd signed out of the building at 6:35. And I could not, the next morning, I could not get the police to take a report. They wouldn't take it seriously as he was missing. They said he hasn't been gone 24 hours and he's an adult. And so, you know, maybe he's just, you know, sleeping it off. And I'm like, no, that's not how it goes. But any rate, A week later, I was— I got a phone call from a detective, Marlis Landeros, who's an amazing woman. She plays a big role in all of this.

Mar—

Detective Landeros was the first woman of color in any authority position in the Detroit Police Department, and she was assigned as the special investigator for homicides. I did not know that when I answered the phone, of course. And she just asked me to meet her downtown at police headquarters and So at the elevator, so I did. I took an immediate liking to her. She was very professional, knowledgeable, calm. And I don't know, it was just an aura about her that I really felt safe with her. She was tall and willowy, which I'm not. And anyway, we rode up to the 5th elevator. And when we got off on the 5th floor of this 10-story building, it said homicide. And I'm like, oh, this isn't going to end good. So she called me in to meet with Inspector Gil Hill, who, by the way, as an aside, had just finished playing the role of Detective Todd in Eddie Murphy's movie of Beverly Hills Cop 1. It was filmed in Detroit. And so I knew him right away, his face, because I had seen the movie. And he was a man of very few words. He was real tall and lanky, and he sat me down and he said, Basically that my husband has been seen in the Cass Corridor area of Detroit, which is like a red light district and a lot of gun sales, drugs, and just not a safe area at all for the past 18 months. And he was giving out a lot of money, cash, paying rent and other— buying cars for this couple, John Carl Fry and Dawn Marie Spence. He was pimp and she was a prostitute. They consider themselves a couple. And he had been supporting their lascivious lifestyle for 18 months, hand over fist. And that he suspected that he had run out of money, that I was broke, and I should go home and check my finances. And he thought he was dead, but he did not yet have a body. And back in those days, this is 1985, you had to have a body to have a murder. Conviction, because DNA wasn't what it is today at all. And I kept thinking, he's got the wrong guy. This is like somebody else's life I stepped into. It doesn't make sense. And but I went home, check my finances. And not only was I broke, I was $30,000 in debt. And that's in 1985 dollars. So that's more like $90,000 in debt, right? Everywhere I turned, we were behind taxes, rent on the office, mortgage payments. I, and I had, as I said, just finished my training. So I had no income to speak of. So it was like every day there was a revelation of some other complication. And a week went by, we didn't hear anything. And I got a second call from Detective Landeros, asked me to come back. And I thought, okay, this is probably it. And she said, you— I would suggest you bring your parents. And by that time, they'd flown in. They were living in Phoenix, retired. So they flew in, and we three of us went to police headquarters this time. And again, it was very quick, and they just said, uh, we found his body parts, that he's been murdered, and we need you to go to the morgue to identify his body parts. And he— we found him up in northern Michigan at the University of Michigan Biologic Station. He was in a shallow grave in 3 different suitcases on property that was designed for the dumping of roadkill for the— because the University of Michigan studied it for— because they were studying insects and decay and all that good stuff, like a body farm sort of thing. So it was a perfect camouflage to dump a body. And I think the only reason they unraveled it is because the guy who helped bury him, not the guy who killed him, but Frank McMaster, who helped in the disposal of the body, turned state's evidence rather than— and he wanted immunity from prosecution in exchange, which they gave him. So they had flown up the previous evening, unbeknownst to me, unherd them, brought them back, and asked me to go to the morgue. So I did. And Detective Landeros— this is just one of many examples I will give you about her— she did not have to do this. But she said to me, I will come with you. And I want you to do this to show yourself he's never coming home. And it will help with the case at trial. And she prepared me for what I was going to see. Apparently, she'd already been through it herself, told me exactly what to expect and, and literally propped me up. I mean, I felt like I had lead boots on. And I remember her putting her arm under my one arm, my dad put his arm under my other, and I just felt like a marionette. It's— it wasn't that I wasn't willing to do it, but I just couldn't. I felt glued to the seat and very heavy, very waxy. It's kind of a hard thing to describe. And it was only 10 feet to get into the chamber, but we got there. And, and she said, all you have to do is say yes or no, you can't nod. And so when I opened my eyes, I couldn't speak. And I shook my head no. And she said, just take the time you need. We'll do it all over again. And I do not remember if there was other people in there with us. It was kind of foggy. But so I opened my eyes and we did it again. And I said yes. And she turned me around and we were going out the front entrance. So this is early in the morning. This is like 7:30 in the morning on a Sunday. And by that time, the press had already assembled. At the morgue entrance. And I'm not given to drama, but I have to explain this to kind of convey how out of it I was. I hadn't slept well or eaten much in 2 weeks. So there was that factor too. But I remember looking out the front door of the morgue, it was a beautiful summer morning. And there was these reporters out there and one of the ones in the front of the group had a camera and microphone on a tripod. I now know that. But when I first saw it, what the thought flashed through my mind was that it was a machine gun on a turret. That's how it felt. And I just froze. I couldn't speak again. And so Detective Landeros just turned me around. And she led me down this long hallway into the back of her squad car. And we went back to police headquarters. And so that was the really beginning of the nightmare and the awareness that they did not get the wrong guy, that everything that they had told me was true. And this was, as I said, July of '85. And I was a mess. I mean, I was a mess physically. I hadn't— I wasn't taking care— I wasn't even eating. In fact, when my parents flew in, I still had the dinner on the stove. It had been days sitting in the heat. I hadn't even noticed it. My mom walked in, she goes, what is that stink? And she said, oh my God, this is— you've had this sitting in a frying pan for days. And I didn't even notice it. It was— I hadn't slept. I'm like, it's more like it was one long day, rather than 24-hour segments. So, bless my parents, were wonderful. They helped me take charge of the media. My dad took charge of the front door and answering the phone. My mom took charge of cooking. I wasn't hungry, but she kept insisting I eat. And all I wanted to do was just be under the covers in bed. I felt very regressed at that point, kind of. And then the next big thing was his funeral. And I told my mother-in-law, I wanted it small. Quick, or nothing at all. I would have been fine with nothing, especially after learning about all the lies and the deception and infidelity and endangering his life and mine. But she wanted one, so we had one. And I went an hour and a half early because it was very hot that morning. And I wanted to cool off, be alone, gather myself. And I told the undertaker on many occasions, this is when he and I were alone, I said, I do not want the media in here. And he gave me really weak responses like, well, I can't keep them from, you know, pulling up at the curb. And I go, I understand that. But I don't want them in the building. This is a private affair. And he kind of nodded, but he didn't act like he was paying attention even. And with— by the time the service started, There was 300 people there and all kinds of media. And I just kept wanting it to be over with. And I didn't even look around. I didn't talk to my knowledge. I didn't, didn't greet anybody or didn't talk to anybody. I just wanted it over with. And when I stood up to leave, one of the cameramen shoved a camera within 2 inches of my nose. And my friend's husband happened to be standing there and he put his hands over the lens of the camera and told him really loudly, go get out of here. Where the hell do you think you're And it was turning into a circus. So I just left. I went home early, locked all my doors and went to bed. I just did not want to join society at that point. And then after that, it was just a matter of waiting, emptying out the house. I knew I wanted to get rid of the house as soon as I could. I didn't want to live there. I never wanted the house in the first place. It was too big and I didn't want it, I couldn't afford it. So I, I had to find a way to pay for the, you know, payments. So I started selling everything I could inside the house, doing everything I could, including snow removal when that time came. And there was a lot of that. The next big thing was the prelim exam, which occurred in December of '85. I was subpoenaed to go or I wouldn't have gone. And I was the first to testify. And it was the first time I'd seen the two defendants in person. I'd seen their pictures in the news, but never in person. And by this time, like I said, it's several months later, I had shifted from being frightened to being really angry. And I remember, again, Detective Landeros was there, bless her heart. And she said, she got me alone. And she said, you can do this. She said, this is your chance to take back control. Don't be afraid to show your genuine emotions. Because I'm not one to be dramatic and yell or cry. I'm not that way. And she knew that apparently. I mean, she was so intuitive. She was an amazing person. And she says, and I have your back, you, if you lose your train of thought, just look at my face. And I said, okay. And so she sat in the first row. And I did look at her more than once to get my composure. But I was so angry. And I remember being led up to the front of the courtroom, and it was packed. It was so packed. It was a small courtroom. And they— it was held, of course, at the Frank Murphy Hall of Justice, Superior Court building in downtown Detroit. And they do a routine weapons check at the door, everybody, when they come in the building. But in this case, they did a secondary weapons check at the door to the courtroom itself because John Carl Fry, the primary assailant, was known to have knowledge of other murders, and they wanted no drama in the courtroom. So we had to go through a secondary check. And at any rate, everything irritated me at that point. And I remember being so mad at them and walking up the aisle. The defendant's table was to my left. And because it was really crowded, I acted like I'd been jostled when I was passing their table. And I slapped my hand really hard in front of them. But really, I was just saying, I'm here and I think you're disgusting. So I got up on the witness stand. They asked me very few questions. The defense stipulated to my testimony. He wanted me out of there as soon as he could. And they wouldn't look at me, either of them, from the defense table. And I left. And my parents and I— when parents were there, we went back home. And I told them, I'm not going to trial. I don't want anything to do with it. Because I said nothing's going to change in my life. What, no matter the outcome, it doesn't make any difference. So the trial was set, but I didn't go. And I, in fact, I flew to Phoenix to be with my family. And then from then on, it was just a matter of trying to reinvent my life. And I remember distinctly thinking in the late winter, I've got to take back control. And so I moved locally. And I loved my new house. But it didn't change anything. The media was still there. I was still digging out of debt. I still had people driving by and taking pictures. It was like, I had to change my phone number so many times, I had to write it down. And after another year of that, I thought, I can't do this anymore. I've got to just start over. And again, this is before the internet. So it made it easier. So I applied for a job in the heartland. I packed up, I changed my name, I changed— of course my phone number was different, sold my house, which I really loved, but I had to sell it. And I started over, and it was like night and day. The place— I loved the people there, but the place was so different. It was farmland. I had everything to get used to. I didn't even know what a silo was. And it was pig farms, and it was cornfields. And I didn't tell— I love the work I was teaching, and that was fun. But I didn't tell anybody about anything. And then eventually, the climate got to me. So I moved again further west. And I did not speak of it for 30 years. That was a long time. I wanted to get myself together and feel authentic again, because I, I was so unnerved by the whole thing that I just didn't want to go there. I couldn't. It was very exhausting to talk about it. And I didn't think anybody would understand. And I didn't want to feel pity. And so I didn't speak of it. Nobody knew for a long time.

Wow. Thank you for, you know, and The whole time you are sharing that, and I know you just, you know, you wrote your book that was out in what, the summer of 2020?

Right.

And so as you tell it so beautifully, you know, it's almost as if you're a one-woman show, like you're on Broadway, you know, with the dialogue. And so then, and as you're telling it so beautifully, I'm wondering, when did it become so— and, you know, and I don't want to say easy, but when were you able to tell it so well? You know, because I'm sure in 1985 you couldn't just tell it like that. When did it become easier for you to tell? You know, like, I mean, did you do the whole— or when you tell it, do you relive yourself going into the morgue and identifying him?

Yes, I see every time. Yeah.

Wow. And so when did it become easier to tell when you're like, oh, I've crossed that threshold, I can do it now?

Not too long ago, I'd say. In fact, I can tell you when it was. I gave a presentation, it was an international conference to the IAAI, the International Identification Association for Criminal Investigators, in Reno. And that was in this July of 2019. Was right before COVID So it must have been 2018. And it was the first time I talked about it publicly. And so I figured it would be easier with strangers, you know, I wouldn't see them again.

Yeah.

And so that was the first time. And then I was writing the book. And even, you know, I remarried, and even my husband had to pull it out of me. When we were dating, you know, you get to that point where you want to know, you know, have you been married before? Do you have kids? You know, that's pretty standard stuff. And And he asked me point blank, because I didn't offer anything. And I finally said, yes, I was married before, but he died. And I don't want to get into it. So we dated a little longer. And now we're engaged. And he goes, well, can you tell me anything more? And I go, he was killed. And that's all I'm going to say for right now. I'll tell you when I will tell you. And he didn't push it. And after we were married, I told him more, but he didn't even get the full drift of it until he read my book.

Wow.

And same with my daughters. They, they knew I was a widow, but I never went into it with them. And, and I think the social worker was pleased that I wanted to adopt them because their mother had been murdered. So she figured I would be a natural. I would understand their situation as they grew older. So, right. So it wasn't something that came out of me naturally or easily. But now that I've told my story, several times in the last year, it's been easier.

Right. Can we go back just to that— to, you know, that moment in 1985 when you're like, this is my husband who I love, and now you're hearing these things about your husband who you don't know about that double life. And now you have your family and your friends who are like, how did you navigate going, oh my goodness, like the information that you share with your parents, the information that you share with your friends about this person that you don't know, because some of that's delicate, you know. It is kind of like you're feeling that sense of betrayal. What do I share with them, a person that I don't know? How did you navigate that aspect of it?

It was tough because I didn't know their reactions. I didn't know how much I wanted to disclose. I didn't know how they were, if I even needed to, because I thought, even if I disclose it, how are they going to support me? They've never been through this, right? You know, how are they going to help me? But at the same time, I'm a train wreck, and they can see that and they want to help.

Right.

So I think I did a lot of testing of the waters. I, and I genuinely didn't know a lot of the truth. I didn't have all the information, right, at the time. So I could genuinely say, I don't know a lot, but all I know is blah, blah, blah, and what you read in the papers, and, and I'm dumbfounded and exhausted and confused and angry and. And what I really wanted, you know, now I can say with clarity, I did not know this then. But what I had, we would call conflicted grief, which means there's relief in your grief. There's a part of you that goes, oh my God, that's over. Because I couldn't have stood being around him if he'd lived through it. And I think with conflicted grief, you have a lot of guilt, because that's not how you're supposed to feel when somebody's killed, even, you know, under those circumstances. And all you really need, all you really want, and I didn't get it from anybody, was somebody to say, you know, if I were in your shoes, I wouldn't know how I would feel. It must be very overwhelming and confusing. And, and inconsistent. Instead, people would give me platitudes like, you know, he's in a better place, and blah, blah, blah, like a Hallmark card, which infuriated me. Or they would avoid me like the 10— like a 10-foot pole. And my parents were so angry with him, that wasn't really helping me either, because they were very on my side, of course, you know. And of course, Detective Landeros went back to her job. So she was out of my life. And it was before the internet. So I couldn't research homicide survivor, what do you do? What do you think? There wasn't anything like that.

Right?

Normally, in a homicide close to you, you'd turn to your significant other, but he's the one that was dead. I had no relatives within my state within 900 miles of me. And you can only count on friends so much. So I just buttoned it up. I didn't talk about it and decided, you know, it's— I've just got to put it away on a shelf for a while and deal with my immediate stressors. Like, what am I going to do with this house? And, and then I got a call from my doctor. And he said, you know, you're not sleeping, you really got to come in, I want to talk to you. And I did. And he's known me since I was 5. So he was like a father in a way. He says, I hate to break this to you, but we're going to give you AIDS testing today. I said, why? And he said, because she was a prostitute using IV drugs. Oh, and AIDS had been just discovered that year. And they had just within 2 weeks discovered the ELISA tests that brand new. And he said to me, you know, it's so new that there's going to be false negatives, and there's going to be false positives. So you have to have this test repeated for the next 7 years to know you're in the clear. And just made me more angry. It's like, how many more things are they going to take from me? And I thought, if prostitution is such an innocent crime, why am I sitting here getting this test?

Right?

You know, so it was like everywhere I turned, it was like another thing to deal with. If it wasn't taxes, it was this. So what my point is, to answer your question, I kept putting that off because that was like for later. That would have been a luxury to sit back and process and and communicate what I was feeling. But I was so in the throes of putting out fires that it consumed me for a good year and a half. And then by the time I moved, the people that were there didn't know me. Because that's why I moved. So they wouldn't know me. And it wouldn't have made sense to say, oh, hi, I'm new to the neighborhood. Let me tell you about who I am.

Absolutely.

So it just kept being postponed and being postponed for decades, right?

So the decision to actually leave Detroit to reinvent yourself, like, tell me about the decision, like the pros and the cons.

Yes, it was very conscious and very deliberate. I literally pulled out a map of the United States and I thought, where do I want to live? Where would people not know me, right? Where would I be able to just exhale? And I thought, a rural community. A rural community would probably be very different for me. And, and so I started looking for jobs teaching in a rural school. And this was so different. Oh my God, it's hard to convey how I felt like I was in May. This is how different it was. I met up with this— she's— this woman was not teasing me. She was dead serious. She was an older woman and she lived off the freeway. And she said, I don't know how we got on the subject, we're talking about winter and how harsh they are. Locking doors. And she says, I would never lock my farmhouse in the winter. Because somebody could break down on the freeway, and they might freeze to death out there. And I want them to be able to get in my house. I'm like, oh my Lord. And if I lock my car, getting out of it with a passenger, they took it personally. Like, why would you lock your car behind me? Well, it's habit, you know. I went to get my new insurance, you know, re-up my insurance, change the address. And I asked the woman at Allstate, I said, what is the discount for a car alarm on your car? And she says, I've never been asked that. I don't know. And I'm like, I feel like I'm on the moon. They didn't even have street signs, right? So it was what I needed at the time. And I would— I'm very glad I did it. But I literally took out a map, decided where I wanted to be. Fortunately, there was a job opening. And they were very curious why somebody from major city would want to move to their little dot on the map where the newspaper is like the folded napkin. But they were too polite to ask. And they were wonderful to me. They opened themselves to me, but I did not open myself to them. I was very reserved, probably off-putting in many ways. I was just hypervigilant. I was still having nightmares. I think I could exhale, you know, some of that, of course, was now coming out. So, but it wasn't a time where I could disclose anything. And right, and I saw I didn't.

Right.

I decided that's what I had to do. And I think it was the right thing. I, I mean, I started sleeping again. I finally started putting some weight back on. I've gone down to probably 100 pounds and had a premature— what do you call it? I was not able to become pregnant after that, the doctor said.

Right.

And so, you know, I had dental issues, my hair was thin. I mean, I was a mess.

Right.

And that started coming back. And I actually started liking where I was living. And then I met Winter there. And it was like, holy crap, it was 30 degrees below zero at times. And I'm like, oh my God.

Yeah.

But the people were wonderful. I really enjoy them. I love my job. The pay sucked, but the cost of living was less, you know.

Right.

But I ended up leaving again. And so I felt kind of like a nomad for a while.

Right. And were there— were there not any established relationships like in Detroit? Like, was there a best friend You know, Annie, who is like, you know, I'm gonna— and so you made the decision that the turmoil, the drama that I was leaving behind was— it just trumped all of that.

Well, I was worried about being a burden in their life too, you know, because the media was descending on them. And they were getting some of the spillover. And I thought, this isn't fair. They got their own lives, their own issues. And it's just my life is out of control. And I don't want it to spill over onto them. And I could see them backing up a little bit, you know, too. I, I think they wanted to distance myself— themselves from me because of the media. And they were— but they were with me through the thick of it. I mean, through the— I'd done it through the funeral. And that morning that I went down to report him missing, they were there. They helped me pack up the house. I'm not saying they deserted me at all. But there comes a time when you, you gotta let go and you can't keep imposing on people. And the media made that even more urgent for me.

Have you been in touch with any of those people at all?

One of them, yeah, my friend Cam. She's my old friend from when I was a senior and as an undergrad. So we've been friends a long, long time. And I saw her a couple years ago when I went back to Detroit in the process of writing my book. I went back and revisited all the places that are important in the book, and I met up with her and we spent some time together. And she was one— she was the one who accompanied me to the gravesite the first time I went. She's the one that helped me pack up my house. And she's a real hoot. She's, she's a character. Yeah. So yeah, I held on to them. But it's long distance now.

Yeah. That's cool. What would you say has been the biggest impact that this event— I mean, my goodness, you lived a redacted life for 30 years, you reinvented yourself, you— I mean, just so much. What would you say the biggest impact that the whole homicide, the betrayal, has had on your life? How, how has it made you the person you are today?

I think if you were to ask me 10 years ago, you would have gotten a different answer. I think it changes, but at this point in my life, looking back, I'm like, I'm resilient. At the time, that's not what my reaction would have been. But, you know, I just took it a day at a time. And I had to tread water, I had to think on my feet, I had to guess what would be the right decision to make. But looking back, I did not falter. You know, I was never homeless, I never let go of my rage. I never turned to alcohol or drugs. I kept my friends. I kept working. I found another job I loved. I did okay. And I— and so it makes me confident that others can do the same, you know, that you can have your life blasted out of your hands, but with time and good decision-making and staying away from stuff you shouldn't get into and a good support system and connectivity with other people, it can be better. And, and that's why I decided to write the book and do my podcast, because since that time, I have met the most phenomenal people. Yeah, every time I do an interview with somebody who's another homicide survivor, I'm like, dang, you're strong. The stuff people have been through. Last year, I sat down and listened to all my episodes in one sitting, back to back, back to back. I wanted to find out what's the common thread? Is there a common thread? And what I found was that each homicide was very unique, but the aftermath was very predictable. And each one of them had unique ways of coping and putting themselves back together. But I've— it's like my tribe, you know, I feel very devoted to them and very appreciative. And, and it's mutually beneficial.

Right? Oh, that's beautiful.

But you got this coming out process all the time, because you meet new people. And it's like, Yeah, they don't know this about me, but there's no reason to get into— like my neighbors, they don't know. Oh, from as far as I know, they don't know, right? Because I moved again because I wanted to get out of the city and move into another rural area because I love gardening. I found out I really have a passion for gardening. So, okay, I have a big garden. And after I went to Guatemala, I wanted to replicate what I'd seen there. So I've been redeveloping my— reinventing my house, actually.

Nice.

Nice. So it's part of the garden with the courtyard and everything. And they don't know, and I don't get into it. It's not like, hey, about that COVID. Yeah, well, let me tell you about my history in Detroit. I mean, you just don't get into it. So it's, it's sometimes it's hard to keep track of, like, who knows, who doesn't know, do I need to say it, don't I need to say, and I just let it fly. And if it comes up, it comes up. But yeah, it usually doesn't.

Right. Would you say you're at a point in your life where you've forgiven and released the event?

I'm at a point in my life where I would describe it more as indifferent. I don't forgive him. Because one, he didn't ask for forgiveness. And two, I think forgiveness has to be earned. Because if it's automatic and a knee-jerk response, you could be giving them permission to do it again. And I worry that sometimes people give forgiveness prematurely. And it just wipes the slate clean for the other person to like, oh, well, she forgave me, I'll do it again. So I just got to finally to a point where I felt indifferent. I mean, I don't hate him. I don't miss him. I feel sad that it happened. I mean, but he brought it on himself. And it's like a stranger to me. He's like an actor. He's not a person that's three-dimensional to me.

He's—

I married this thesbian. You know, he's an actor. He's— he was never faithful to me. I come to find out, and I was interviewing people for the book, because I said he was 18 years older than me, so I didn't know a lot of his developmental history. And I got a few of his classmates to talk about it. And they said, oh, he always went for brown-haired women with hair parted in the middle, who—

with—

without resources. And he was never faithful to them. And bingo, that just described me. I was a high school graduate when I met him, and I was 18 years younger with brown hair parted in the middle, without any money and education to speak of. And, and he wasn't faithful to me. I know that because Detective Landeros told me that they had his fingerprints on file from a solicitation conviction 3 years after we were married. And that's how they knew it was him. But they wanted me there to say it in court. So he'd never— so I'm not going to forgive somebody like that. It's like he doesn't deserve it. He didn't earn it. He didn't ask for it. No, but I'm not going to spend any energy on him, you know, feeling bad or guilty or angry or anything. It's like, I have moved on and he is in my rearview.

Got it. Got it. So through your Facebook group, through your book, and just through the work, what is the legacy that you hope to leave through all of your actions and your work?

That's a good question. I, I would hope it would be the importance of connecting, that when you meet people who have shared experiences outside the norm and you can really be genuine and talk about it and have a trustworthy, sincere, in-depth discussion, it is so— there's no— the stigma goes away, and the isolation and the confusion, it all melts. And it's like, it's just like it's regenerating me. I just love it. And I'm, I'm hoping that— that's why the podcast is important to me, because it's recorded, it'll be there for for a long time, you know, because it'll be on tape and people can listen to it. And, and it's heard in 11 countries now. So, um, you know, I'm finding that there— I'm just meeting such phenomenal people, and others will too, that if we can find our niche and meet each other, because homicide survivors are a ghost of a group. I mean by that, you don't see us in movies, there's no books about us, you don't get us information on us in history books or in school. We don't have demonstrations. We're not on podcasts, typically. We're not even in academic research. We're this ghost.

Yeah.

And that's partly because we don't want to talk about it. It's partly that, but it's partly because people aren't interested, I think. I mean, if you think about it, people can talk about Ted Bundy, they might be able to name a few of his victims. But how much do we know about their siblings and the parents of the murdered women? You don't. They're just invisible. But we're out there. In fact, a statistic is that for every murder, there is— research has shown that between 8 and 10 people that are deeply and immediately impacted by that homicide. And secondly, homicides are on the rise since COVID We're now averaging 20,000 a year instead of 18,000 a year. Well, that translates into a lot of homicide survivors in the last couple of years. And that's just in the United States.

Wow.

And it shows no sign of returning. I mean, it's not what it was in the '70s. '70s, it was much steeper, but it's— and it's still a rare event. I don't want to overstate it. But we're on the rise since 2019.

Right.

For a lot of, for a lot of reasons. And we just don't connect. And every single person listening to this interview, I'm positive, has walked past or knows a homicide survivor. I'm positive. Yeah, whether it's been in line at the airport or the waitress who waited on you, or maybe the neighbor across the street. I mean, we're here, but we're invisible.

Absolutely. Well, to shine a light on some of those people that we feel are invisible, who is someone that you've had on your podcast who inspires you through their story?

Man, there's so many, so many. Um, Well, here's a recent one. I interviewed this young woman, first time she'd spoken out about it openly. It was a case of filicide. And filicide is an ugly word. Filicide means it's the deliberate murdering of one's child. When she was 4 years old, her mother had killed her brother who was 12. He was up in his bedroom. She suffocated him. And this little guy's boy, his friend was at the front door. And she said, let him in if he wants to go upstairs, let him take him upstairs. So this little girl who was then 4 led the friend up to her brother's deceased brother's bed. And there he is dead. And then she gets put into foster care because her mom gets, you know, is in prison, and she had no father. And that didn't work out, you know, foster care is no bed of roses. And then she ended up in a group home, then she ended up in a psych hospital. And by the time she was 16, she was beside herself with grief and anger and so on. But she had like that spark in her that knew that she knew she had to find her way because nobody was helping her. Nobody understood her. And what she decided, she said, I needed— I knew I needed structure. I knew I needed predictability in my life. And I wanted to feel safe. And I wanted to be among people I could trust. And she said, so the thing that came to my mind is I'm going to join the military. It had all those ingredients that was structured. We were all in this together, and I learned weapons. And she served 2 tours in the Middle East, came back, and now she's using her GI Bill and wants to become a psychologist. I'm like, whoa, you are amazing.

Nice.

But that's just an example. They're all amazing. Truly, there's another one. And this I have to mention you in this, if you're listening to this, she's a sweetheart. She lives in North Carolina. Her husband was home on leave from the military. Oh my God, this poor woman. He was murdered by a family relative. That's bad enough. But then she's at the funeral. She has two little kids, two little preschool kids. At the funeral, two pregnant, very abundantly pregnant women approach her to tell her that they're burying his child, his children. Oh, and they were real dramatic about it and calling attention to themselves at his funeral. And she felt like nobody was listening to her. And she got up and left the funeral. And now she is running a support group, victims advocacy group out of North Carolina. She's doing amazing things. She wants to have a national conference. And she's right now this week, she's always got a project going. This week, she is putting together a silent video of homicide survivors to be like a traveling exhibition, or you could send it over the internet. And, and I don't know how she said, but it's from people from all over the world. She's really innovative. So she's just, I mean, there's all these people, they do all these amazing things. And without any pay, And, uh, they're making lemonade out of lemons is what they're doing.

Absolutely. Well, that's incredible. Well, I think that's what you're doing as well, Jan. So I think the work that you're doing in the world is, is inspiring. It's, it's, it's fantastic. So thank you so much. How can people connect with you? I am leaving a link in the show notes. I know that the first 10, or actually, yeah, in the first hour, the first 5 people who shoot me an email will get the audiobook of Jan's book, A Life Divided, right? We— right, Jan, this is— Jan is being so giving. The first 5 people who shoot me an email at traviestewardcoach@gmail.com, the first 5 people shoot me an email will get the free audiobook version of Jan Canty's A Life Divided. So guys, you jump right on that the first hour that this, this podcast is out. Jan has been so giving of that. That information will be in the show notes. So other than that, Jan, how can people connect with you? How can they get a hold of your podcast? Just drop all of that information right now for somebody who wants to write it down. I also will leave it in the show notes.

Okay, I tried to make it pretty easy. It's— most of it is on my website, so it's www.jancanty.com. It's all small letters, uh, .com. jancanty.com. And once they open that, you'll see podcast and book, and click on what you're interested in. The only other way is if you are a homicide survivor, and if you are listening to this, I do administer a private Facebook group called Homicide Thrivers and— Homicide Survivors and Thrivers. And it's been out a few months now. And it's a cool group. One of the things I wanted to make it different from others, other groups, there aren't a lot out there. But one of the things I wanted to do set it apart was it is both a support group and an information group. So I have a hand-picked group of experts that sit on the sidelines that can answer technical questions. I have a retired homicide detective, an attorney, I have a victim advocate, a grief therapist, and once in a while they'll chip in, but most of the time they're quiet and they're on the sidelines. And then I periodically will write essays or give information, like I wrote one called This Is Your Brain on Homicide, and talks about what's happening at the brain level and why you're tongue-tied, tongue-tired, tongue-tied, and why you have memory problems when shock happens and things of that sort. And so that's on Facebook. So just those two ways, www.jancantyphd.com. And Homicide Survivors and Thrivers on Facebook if you are a homicide survivor.

Nice, sounds good. So, Jan, this has been fantastic. I love this. I feel like, you know, this is like true crime, you know, like, because I did listen to a couple of the other podcasts. I was like, oh my God, this is so intriguing. And so thank you so much for, for being on the podcast today. I find it— I find your story so intriguing. Like, I am someone who watches Dateline every Friday night, and I feel like this should be on Dateline. They should reenact it, tell your story. This is totally Dateline material. So thank you so much for gracing us and, and, and being on the Reinvent You podcast.

Travia, I appreciate the opportunity. Thank you, and good luck to you and your listeners.

Thank you, Jen. If you like what you're hearing And perhaps you're interested in having a complimentary conversation with me. Click the link at the bottom of the show notes. Thank you so much for listening. If you even want to know more about what I'm up to, head over to traviestewart.com. And if you like seeing the videos of the podcast, every episode is on my YouTube channel. Take care, guys.