Ep 88 Walk away to Win with Megan Carle

I am Travia Steward, and I want to help you move past barriers and obstacles that are preventing you from getting what you want in life. This is Breakthrough. What would your life look like if you were raised to win? And when I say win, I mean win in everything in the car, the house, the husband, the wife, the kids, the job. And then when you finally get to a point where you've stepped out and you've noticed that, yeah, I'm winning, and that you've actually made it, you are living the life that you really dreamt about as a kid. You are making the impact. You are loving life and the job and everything in it, and then that rug is pulled out from you. With nearly 35 years of Fortune 500 experience, my guest founded C Squared Team Consulting. She is also the author of the book Walk Away to Win, which is the title of our episode, and it talks about workplace culture and specifically Workplace Bullying. I wanted to just jump on here. The time when we were recording this episode a few weeks ago, Meagan's book was still being shopped. Today, I celebrate with her. I received a text from her a couple of days ago that her book has been picked up by McGraw-Hill. So before you know it, she is going to have the book Walk Away to Win. In bookshelves, in bookstores, on bookshelves, through Amazon. You can get it on your Kindle. I'm celebrating you, my friend. To your success. And so, my peeps, give this episode a listen like, you know, you've never listened before as we dive into workplace bullying, as Megan shares her experience as she walked away to win. Listen now.

Well, thank you for having me, Travia Steward, my new friend who I'm so pleased to have been introduced to, and by Luisa Milano. So we'll plug there. And how exciting is it just to talk about and think about breakthrough? And I love the name of your brand and the podcast being Breakthrough because there are so many moments in our lives, I think, that we consider breakthrough moments. And as I was thinking about breakthrough and even talking about it, I thought I, I thought I was I thought one part of my life was a breakthrough, and maybe it was, but there was really, if I went back in time, the breakthrough really came at the lowest moment, not as I was getting out of it. The breakthrough was the moment, and it was 2015, and I had checked into a hotel in Dallas. I had some meetings there the next day. It was late. It was after midnight. And I'm bumbling my way up to my room. And I remember, I, you know, as, as we did back then, all these bags on me. I had the backpack, I had the rolling bag, I had some other bag. I had the free apple from the piece of fruit from the check-in because I hadn't eaten, of course, and a little strung out, of course, from, from the travel from Portland, Oregon to Dallas. And got big meetings the next day that I'm leading with our largest client. And I'm fumbling at the door with my key card, and I see out of my peripheral vision, I see some sort of motion down the hallway. And it's a— it's an employee from the hotel. And I can tell that because he has his uniform on. And he gives me the head nod, the universal greeting. And I, at that moment, as I'm fumbling and weighed down with from the bags and all of my own emotional and psychological burden that I'm carrying at that point, I get myself into the room and I have convinced myself that someone, whether it's that faceless, nameless employee or someone else within the hotel, is going to break into my room and hurt me and probably kill me. I put my stuff down. I quickly evaluate the room and try to determine what piece of furniture can I move to barricade myself in the room. So I need to be able to pick something up and move it in front of the door. Um, and I remember the dresser was bolted down and was like really huge. And I— there was this desk though across the room And I kind of like feel like I almost chest passed it against the door because it was very awkward to move it and it was heavy. And I remember just kind of throwing it almost and then getting it situated in front of the door. And of course locking and chaining the door. And I decided I was going to spend the night fully clothed in the empty bathtub because for some reason I felt safest in that sort of cocoon-like structure of the bathtub. And so I grabbed the pillow off the bed, I grabbed the, the mini bar, the Pringles potato chips, because that was my go-to, of course. And I set myself in that tub, and I spent the night double stacking Pringles, eyes wide open. And got up the next morning having not slept a wink and put on my, you know, suited up for my day, suited up for my my facilitation of this meeting. And I think I probably knew that was just really a very anxiety-induced evening I had just spent, but it had become the norm for me. I went about my business. I— we had a great meeting. I put on— I put on the costume. I became Megan the executive, and I then blessedly, about a week later, had an annual physical. My doctor took one look at my blood pressure and said, what's going on? Your blood pressure is alarmingly high. And she had known me a while, and I told her about what was going on at work. And I said, I have run into someone whose bullying behavior is something like I have never experienced, and I just cannot figure out how to work through the pick, as we say on the basketball court. Generally, you can adjust and work yourself around. And then there are those other times that you remember playing sports where the knee is thrown out, it catches you in the quad, and you're down. And that was— that had become my life. Knee to the quad, down. So she said, what other kinds of symptoms are you having? And as I started to share with her I had stopped sleeping because when I closed my eyes, I was hallucinating. And so that— there was no, no sleep. I felt so outside my body that when I would walk towards people at work, if we're walking down a hallway and I'm going to pass somebody, I felt so invisible because of the bullying beatdown that I was taking on a daily basis that I wouldn't be sure that that person could actually see me. And then I decided that because I was being honest with my doctor, I better tell her about what just happened in Dallas with the the desk and the Pringles and the— and I remember when I told her that story, her face looked very concerned. And I realized at that moment, I'm in trouble. Like, this is bad. And she gave me this gift, which was this— she said a few words. Which were, um, you know, you need to make a change. And I left her, I left that appointment, and I remember going to my car and I felt such sadness that I had allowed the place that I work to have that kind of effect on me and my health, and therefore the health of my family. Because if Mama goes down, the operation goes down. I was so saddened that I had put us at risk. That was on a Thursday. It took me till Sunday to even share what had happened with my husband. I couldn't hardly talk about it. Every time I did, and even how I feel now, I get a bit of a lump in my throat and I've got to breathe. Breathe through it. And I told him about the appointment. And my husband, who's this just fantastic, absolute found the right guy husband, and I told him, and he said, well, that explains a lot. And I said, what, what do you mean? And he said, you know, you are mama, you're mama. And you always opt in. With our family. And you haven't opted in for a while. And I kind of choked out, do you think the kids have noticed? And he lied and said, no, I don't think they've noticed. And that was kind of a gift for me. So that Monday, you know, after talking to him on Sunday, I went into my place of work, and I went to my other manager, the one that I was not being mistreated by, and I said, I need you to find me a new job, and I need you to do that yesterday. And he said, this is because of— and he said the bully's name. And I said, no, this isn't about the bully. This is about Meagan Carl and making me whole. And I've been here at that point, I had been there about 26 years. And I said, you know, I've earned that. I said, you can put me in the barista. I'll be a barista in the cafe. Just, we need to make a change. We need to do it now. And that I said, you know, you know what you have going on with this other individual. This happened long before I got here. And, um, and so just make me whole. And that didn't— that isn't what happened. An investigation was launched, and I had been at the company long enough to know that, um, if, if we went down this road, um, it was not going to bode well for me. I was certain I would be the one, um, who was either misrepresented and therefore exited because I had seen it happen too long, too, too often. And so sure enough, an investigation was launched. It took a significantly long period of time. There were other positions that were offered to me during that time. I passed because I felt like, no, if there's an investigation going on I still had enough optimism in me. I thought they're going to determine that this guy needs to go and I'm going to stay in this role. This is my dream job. I'm going to stay right here. That's not what happened. The investigation, although significantly substantiated, they kept the bully in his role and they said, you're right, we do need to find you something else to do. By that time, I was a shell of my former self. The bully knew that I had raised my hand to be moved, and so the retaliation was brutal. I was disinvited. I was— I just was— I don't— I didn't know I could be diminished any more than I already had been, but I was. And what ended up happening is I ended up, you know, with my husband, we made the decision that I would leave. But because of the upbringing I had, I was raised by a basketball coach, who was a teacher, my mom was a teacher, we were raised, you know, basketball literally put food on the table. And we were raised to win. We raised winners. And my stepdad was a winning basketball coach. He wasn't just a basketball coach, he was a winning basketball coach. And so winning was like a food group. And it wasn't, you know, sweep the knee cage match winning. It was effort, hustle, do your best. The W's are going to stack up and And if you, and if you don't get it, you've done your best, great job, and you've learned, and you get up and you go the next day. So that's my upbringing. So when I make the decision to leave a place I've been, you know, for almost 30 years, that is quitting. And quitting is losing, and losing is for losers. And so I became a loser. And so it took me a long time to figure out that on that spectrum that we can sort of run into with workplace bullying, there's this spectrum of stay and there's a spectrum of walk away. And if you stay, because not everybody can make the decision to walk away, not everyone is in the position that they can make that decision from a financial standpoint So if you stay, there's some things you're going to have to do to make sure that you're healthy and safe and, and, you know, putting yourself in a position to work effectively. So you're going to look for some allies and you're going to hope the bully gets moved. You're going to hope you get moved. But if you walk away, that can't be seen as losing. The walk away, you know, is the win. In fact, walking away is the win. And that's what I finally figured out, that to walk away was to win for me.

Love that. Wow. And is that the title of your new book, Walk Away to Win?

It's the working title of my book, my, my new book being my only book, my My one and only. I would be a, you know, a first-time author. And my proposal is with a couple of publishing houses right now. And, you know, we're having some conversations and it's a very important subject, workplace culture and the healthy and unhealthy markers to workplace culture. And when those unhealthy markers stack up, the results of that is hostile work environment, toxicity, workplace bullying, and that really, um, that takes off, right? And so yes, Walk Away to Win, um, is, is the name of the book.

Perfect. So Megan, I would love to, to dive into your whole breakdown before you broke through, right? And so in the moment, like your story, who you became, took on such a different element, right? Because as I listened to you tell your story, you know, I'm thinking, okay, she's gonna have this confrontation. But you were kind of putting a shell around yourself, like, like in the hotel room when you're like, I can't go to sleep. Were you visualizing that, that person, the bully, was there, or did that whole level of paranoia take on a whole new level on itself?

Yeah, it took on, um, you know, with stress that then sort of manifests itself into anxiety, paranoia is kind of a natural, uh, outgrowth of that. And so I, I didn't feel safe anymore. And it wasn't because I thought the bully was going to show up. I thought maybe anybody was going to show up because I had gotten myself— and I think a lot of it is you don't sleep, you enter into this stage, you're, you know, your, your nervous system shot, your fight or flight is completely on all the time. You're always in fight or flight. You never get a rest from it. And I think it's interesting because targets of workplace bullying are— the studies show that we are generally fabulous.

Yeah.

We're workers, we're dreamers, we create vision, we lead and influence, we're hard chargers, we're executives, um, we're kind. And bullies are so threatened by all of those things. And my particular bully was so threatened by me, and it was so bizarre for me. It was so— it's Workplace bullying is so confusing because you don't expect to be bullied in your professional setting.

Yeah.

And, and so when I, I actually did go forward prior to things really starting to fall apart for me, I raised my hand, but it was always under this preface of like, I don't want you to do anything. But you know, you have this situation with this individual. And it was always— I think I went forward 2 times, and then the response I got was always, that's why we put you there, Megan. And, and that for me, coach's kid, right on. I'll go back to the line. We're going to do some more lines. Yeah, we'll do some more sprints. Yeah, 3-man weave, here we come. Let's go. Yeah, let's do some more drills. Okay, I got it. I got it. And so, you know, when it— when that didn't— and I think the thing that happened, at least in my case, and it's, it's not unique to me, you try to figure out what is, what is it that you can do differently. So to appease the bully, so, so, so the bully will stop bullying you. And what you don't know when you're in it, it doesn't have anything to do with you. It's It doesn't have anything to do with how I was operating. It's all the bully's nonsense that he or she or they are bringing. That is, you know, it's whatever has happened to that bully in their lives or whatever narrative they're spinning in their head. That's what it's about.

Yeah. Can you, can you talk to me between— you said I had to put on my costume, right? Right. And I know what that means to me, but I can't assume that it means the same thing to you. Talk me through putting on your costume to peeling that back to finding the Megan who is whole again.

Well, I love that question. I think, you know, growing up in sports, in a sport household, you suit up. You know, that's, you know, you suit up. I get my jersey on, I get my kit on, I get my game face, and it, you know, I get my game face, I get my posture. I'm short, so I get my, I get something that's going to lift me up a bit. Um, I might need a jacket, you know. And then you do all this and you, you work it, you work hard to make the deal, grip and grin, shake the hand, drive the business. All the while you've got this like psychological, you know, corporate psychopath just torturing you, either overtly and publicly or covertly and privately. It's just, it's always on, you know, with, with You know, I call— they're called corporate psychopaths because they have just a certain sort of narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism to them that leads us to that. So, so, so then what starts to happen though is then you get such the beatdown that you don't get up anymore, you don't suit up, and in fact you just, you know, You just want to get small.

Yeah.

Remember one day I drove into work. It was a big deal when you became a vice president, you got a parking spot. That was, it was like a, that was a big deal. And I drove into my parking spot and I remember, I remember, you know, being so proud of that because I had been there a long time and I, I was, I was definitely a story of working my way up. And I parked and I paused and I put the car in reverse. I drove straight back home. I walked up the stairs to my room. Nobody was home. And I put myself in bed and I pulled the blanket up over my head. I had my boots on still. I still remember, I still remember what I was wearing. And I pulled the blanket up because I just, I couldn't, you know, there's, there's physiologically what was going on is I was just trying to return to almost, almost the fetal position to get some relief and some release. But yeah, that's the, that's the, you know, it's a costume. It's armor.

Yeah.

That you put on to go to, and what it felt like is I was going to battle every day. And so then as I get to that hotel room, I have just gotten myself into some just bizarro land of like, yeah, you are, you know, first of all, you see that, you know, you're hallucinating, so you see crap all the time. And now, okay, somebody's gonna come and hurt you. I think my own physical safety was like a theme. I think I got I got less bold. I got less swagger. I lost, I lost that. I'm, you know, I'm 5'3". I was always a point guard. I was not above trash talking and using my body and making myself as big as I could. I just wanted to get smaller and smaller and smaller.

Oh, as I hear you, yeah, you're just like, I feel like you got a ball behind you. You're going between the legs, behind the back right now while we do this. Yes, exactly. Spinning it, right? So when you said in your story that, you know, you became a loser. So now I'm wondering if, was there a moment where you like step out and looked at the person who's hallucinating, the person who couldn't sleep, the person who couldn't handle the situation? Was that person a person that you considered a loser who you weren't proud of? Who was that? What was that identity? And how did you judge that identity?

I thought it was really hard to, um, to be a target without being a victim. And I guess I, I couldn't reconcile for a long time. And I remember using the word victim with somebody and they said, you're not a victim. I said, I am, I'm the victim of workplace bullying. And at that point, I remember sort of wearing that and being okay with it. And then I've since spent a lot of time thinking about that and I think that was the mentality I was in. I was so beaten. I felt beaten down. I was exhausted. You know, I worked at a place where the pace was relentless. And then you're trying to contend with this, you know, this bullying situation. And so I think that I felt I left, I felt like I knew it was the only decision to make, so I felt really confident in that. But I also felt like for a long time, what could I have done differently? I remember being out with a girlfriend who worked at the same organization. I'd known her a long time. She said, you know, how are you doing? And I said, yeah, I'm doing all right. And she's, you know, one of our friends is kind of talking about like you couldn't hack it. And I, and I said, uh, I said, oh, that's too bad, you know. And I remember just being like, I didn't, I didn't feel defensive about that. I remember I just said, that's too bad because that's, that's not factual. That isn't what happened. But I wasn't, I wasn't able to put words against what had happened. I really didn't understand it. What I did know is that I needed to extract myself because the situation had taken such a toll on my health that, that, that doctor that I went to said, you know, what are you most scared of? I said, I'm scared I'm gonna have a heart attack, because I had gotten myself into such a state that I, I thought that that's the next thing that happens here. So fortunately, my survival instinct is enough, you know, that I was able to say, you know what, I'm gonna remove myself from this. And then what happened when I left is I anointed myself the CEO of Yes. And I think this kind of goes to your question. I decided that I was going to say yes to all those things that people had asked me, you know, basically had stopped asking me for. They had stopped asking me to help. Hey, could you help me move? Or do you want to be part of a meal train? Because our friend is going there. What's a meal train? You know, I'm busy. I'm in London. I'm doing the Olympics, or I'm in Beijing. I'm being fabulous. I'm, you know, I'm busy. I got this busy, you know, right? Busy. And then when I left, I literally said, you are going to be the CEO of Yes. And that, that friend who needs help, uh, the volunteerism that you've— you always say you're gonna do, you're actually gonna be the head of the auction. You're gonna coach your kids' volleyball team. Um, and it felt so good. At the same time, I remember listening to, um, Shonda Rhimes. She had a book called The Year of Yes.

Yes.

Her thing Her thing was a bit more of, so I knew I was on the right track 'cause Shonda Rhimes talking about the universe.

Absolutely.

I'm like, oh my God, CEO, yes, I'm in. But her thing was more like she had to say yes to these functions and things like socially. And mine was more of, I need to be of service to others in some way to get out of my own head because this has done such a number on me that I need to, you know, in our, in our house, so we talk about like, let's get back to basics, let's get back to fundamentals, right? Just like, just like in sport, let's, let's do our drills. And part of getting back to fundamentals was like, how can you serve others and get out of your own way? And that helped tremendously for me. The thing that was a surprise for me is how much like grief the leaving felt. And that I didn't expect. I didn't know that leaving the, the organization I had been at for over half my life, I didn't know the level of loss I was going to feel. And what happened, which was really eye-opening for me, and it's really what prompted The book is that that leaving and that whole grieving process catapulted me back in time to when I was 18, to the worst moment of my life, which was the sudden death of my mom. Died from lung cancer, you know, from diagnosis to eulogy, 6 weeks. So an incredibly accelerated illness for her. And I could not figure out like, what, what does workplace bullying— why am— why is this taking me out at my knees and taking me back to her? And my sister-in-law really helped me. She's a therapist, and she said, you know, until you can find meaning in that loss, you will always go back to it. And it doesn't mean, it doesn't mean like, you know, oh, you know, everything happens for a reason. I mean, it is more about what is the meaning from that? What is it? What meaning are you going to take? And the meaning that I realized was the meaning was me. And the meaning was my voice. And the one that sat around our kitchen table with 5 older brothers and a basketball coach and a feminist mom who taught history and current world affairs and wanted to know my opinion about everything. And when I, when I started to embrace that and breathe that in and get that back into the to the cellular level, that's when I knew, okay, I can get to the other side of this thing. It's going to take some time. And I got a whole, like, wellness group. I mean, I was doing everything— craniosacral and meditation and yoga and swimming. And I really like swimming. And I, you know, I was trying, like, just everything. But part of it was my voice. My voice matters. And so I refound that, which was, was essential.

Yes. So, wow, thank you for being so, so open and forthcoming with all of these details. And so as we begin to wrap up, when, you know, everybody's referring to probably, you know, mid-COVID till now, till now, as the Great Resignation. And so Now that you have stepped out of that situation, right, what do you wish, number one, you had known then that you know now? And if you were the person appointed to be the advisor to fix it, how would you do that, like, for the world?

So it's interesting, when I— after I left, I was then invited back and had a conversation. I was invited back by the, by the CEO, and the conversation was, you know, what would it take to get you back? And I said, I would love to be your, um, uh, corporate cultural officer. Yes. And I would love to help you and your team and this organization reestablish the culture. Not necessarily— we don't need to go a back-in-the-day approach on this, um, but what we do need to do is figure out how this incredible place, this brand, what the culture needs to be in this day and age with these employees and what they're contending with. And that didn't get a reception, that didn't get a positive reception. In fact, it was super, like, confusing. You know, I remember him looking at me like, like, I'm not totally following. And because I, because I really predicted the answer, which was, you know, our culture is how we treat each other. And I said, I know, I grew up here. And I know that's, I know, that's what, what we expounded. But that has taken a huge hit. And so I wonder, and so I tried again, I like, let's do it, let's, we're gonna give this one more shot. And it was not, again, it was not received in a positive, you know, it just wasn't, there wasn't any conversation about it. And so I think now the way I look at it is especially in these times of great resignation and quitagian is the latest one I saw. And hybrid and the hybrid and virtual and no-grid and all this is, it really is about resetting workplace culture. And it's about leaders having conversations that are more about behaviors. Uh, it doesn't mean core competencies aren't important, so we need to deliver results and revenue and margins and EBITDA and all those things, but we also really need to elevate discussion, uh, with organizations around what behaviors are rewarded. Um, and I think to tell my, my, myself back then, if I had known then what I know now, a couple things. One is always knowing what are the rules of the organization you've joined and who are the referees. You played sports, I played sports. Um, what we— what I was contending with was sort of a game without rules and without refs. And that's a very That's a very difficult situation to be in when you are wronged or pummeled or beaten down. You're fouled, you get a flagrant foul and nobody's going to call it.

Yeah.

And you get yourself back up and you go at it again and you box out and you rebound and you do, oh, okay. Now I just got pummeled again and nobody's going to call it. So we need to know, you know, leaders need to really be clear on what the rules are and who the referees. And when you're joining an organization, you need to understand that so that when you do run into trouble, because you're going to, and you know, you've got the lay of the land. I think that's, that is, is so important, you know, and I wish I had known that. And then the second thing is, I wish I had just been kinder and gentler with myself. On this sort of definition of leaving as quit, you know, because I held on for a long time. I held on longer than I should have, you know. I put myself and my family at risk, and I wish that I had understood the idea that to stay really was to acquiesce to a system that was no longer built for me or my success. And to walk away was indeed the win.

Wow. And to walk away was something you could be proud of.

Absolutely.

Yeah, I love that. Well, Megan, I could— I got 80 more questions in my head, but we're going to have to have you come back, you know.

And so, Travia Steward, oh my gosh, thank you so much for having me.

You're welcome.

Thanks.

You know, thank you because you are opening— you have opened my eyes to a lot of things. And we hear about these things, you know, you know, on, on, you know, with CNN, with, you know, all the people, you know, on TV or the big companies. And, and I feel like I've just experienced it like in the front row seat with you telling your story. And so thank you so much for opening up, you know, the vessel that is you, that is whole again and is able to come from a place to tell her story so that it's empowering for other people. And, you know, I look back at when I made the decision to leave my 24 years of teaching, and it was because of cancer. So it said, no girl, you better go now.

Right.

And so I get it that it took you a little bit longer to do it. And so I applaud you. I celebrate you for standing up for who Megan is and finding the whole Megan again.

So thank you. Well, thank you for being a part of that. I appreciate it so very much.

Absolutely. So we'll have to have you back for part 2, especially— guys, she has a book coming out too. Especially when that book is out, we're gonna have her back, and then she's going to go in, in more detail about how and what it means to walk away to win. How about that? Awesome.

Thank you, Travia Steward.

You're welcome. Thank you so much for listening. I have appreciate you so much. And if you are finding value in these episodes, I would love it if you would go to Apple iTunes, Apple Podcasts, and leave a 5-star review. And just so it helps more people be able to find the podcast. Take care, guys, and be exceptional.