Finding the grit to pursue a dream with Lisa McMann

I remembered back from my just-out-of-college days when I tried to be a writer that I still had some of those stories kept in a drawer. And so I went home, I think that day or maybe the next day, and I looked for those and I pulled them out and I started reading them and I realized they were terrible and no wonder I wasn't a writer. Because they were just trash. I mean, except for one. There was one that I thought, ah, this is kind of cool yet. You, and then you would mail them in and wait 6 months, a year, sometimes 2 years, and then you'd get a form letter rejection.

Wow.

And I did that out of college for a really long time, and I kept getting rejection after rejection, and I gave up writing because I couldn't take the rejection. I quit writing for 10 years. I got some, some critiques and I, instead of like before when I was in college, immediately getting defensive, I actually listened to the criticism and I worked on the stories and made them better. And then I started writing more stories and then eventually I actually got something published, a short story. I think life is a lot about seeing chances and taking them.

My guest today is a New York Times bestselling author of 25 books. As a matter of fact, her 25th book came out this past Tuesday. She is a writer for children and young adults. She's written in genres including paranormal, realistic, dystopian, and fantasy. Some of her most well-known books are the Unwanted series for middle grade readers and the Wake trilogy for young adults. Ladies and gentlemen, I have with me, and I feel like I'm going through her whole family, and I am— Killian will be next— the New York bestselling author Lisa McMahon, whose new book is out today, my peeps, today, The Unwanted Quest. But we will talk more about that in a little bit. That's what I'm talking about. So Lisa, thank you for joining the Reinvent You Podcast. How's it going today? Just tell me, you know, a little bit of how Lisa's feeling today on this Tuesday. Sure.

Well, it is always a fun day when a book comes out. Like a big birthday party. And this is my 25th book, so it feels kind of like I should know what I'm doing by now.

Right, right.

Yeah. I mean, it's a great day. I'm feeling really good about it.

Nice.

And, you know, if we didn't have COVID and if we didn't have all this smoke from these fires all around us here in California, it'd be even better, but right, we can get, right?

So is there a feeling of, you know, like in theater there's an illusion of the first time, it's like, oh, it's never happened before, like ever. Like, this is your 25th book launch. Do you get the whole butterflies of, I've never put out a book before, it feels so new? Is there some freshness to that?

There's always a little bit of freshness. There's always that I wake up in the morning and go, it's book launch day, you know. I can't sleep anymore and I'm excited to get going and see, you know, I've got to get on social media, talk about it. I usually am traveling, but this year I'm not because— so we are sitting tight and doing some Zoom events and that sort of thing.

Right.

And tomorrow evening and this week and stuff. But yeah, so it's exciting every time. It's not the same as the first time, but it's still good.

It's still exciting. Yeah. Because if it stopped being exciting, then you wouldn't love and you wouldn't want to continue doing it. Bit of information. Of course, I was, you know, doing my research. I was cyberstalking you, all those things. And I was reminded, I remember Kennedy telling me this in high school, that you and I share the same birthday. And then I noticed that your brother had— you shared the birthday with him. So there's 3 of us. Yeah, that's incredible. Wow. So, so Lisa, I like to show the whole path of how you became the Lisa that The world knows today. Tell us a little bit, a little bit about who Lisa is. And I actually want you to start with your journey from— you were a realtor, you were working in real estate. What did that moment look like when you said, ah, I'm doing this, I'm taking this path of— that doesn't have a lot of certainty that I'm going to branch out and do this and chase my dream. Talk us through that process.

Sure. Well, I was a realtor, like you said, in Michigan. This is in the late 1990s, early 2000s. And I really enjoyed my job. I loved working with my broker. His name is Dave. And I worked as his assistant as well as doing some of my own sales. And one day Dave came into the office and I was there late working on something. And he said, you know, Lisa, you really need a hobby. And I thought about that for a minute. And I'm like, I don't really have a hobby. And most realtors play golf and I'm not a golfer, so I had to think about that for a little bit. But I remembered back from my just out of college days when I tried to be a writer that I still had some of those stories kept in a drawer. And so I went home, I think that day or maybe the next day, and I looked for those and I pulled them out and I started reading them and I realized they were terrible and no wonder I wasn't a golfer because they were just trash. Trash. I mean, except for one. There was one that I thought, ah, this is kind of cool yet. I remember writing this one. I remember, you know, how this goes. And I thought, okay, life is different now. Back when I tried to be a writer the first time, you wrote manuscripts on typewriters.

Right.

Had computers and had like word processing programs and stuff, but I didn't. That was expensive, you know. Right. And so I think I had that typewriter where you typed in one line and it showed up on a little tiny screen like this big.

Wow.

And then you'd enter to say, yeah, that's the way I want it to look.

Holy smokes.

So that was really fancy. But back then out of college, that's what you did. You typed it all out. You made photocopies or like, do you remember those blue?

Yeah, like a Xerox.

Yeah. Yeah.

That I like to smell. I would smell the paper. See, we're dating ourselves.

But no, you like you, and then you would mail them in and wait 6 months, a year, sometimes 2 years, and then you'd get a form letter rejection.

Wow.

And I did that out of college for a really long time, and I kept getting rejection after rejection, and I gave up writing because I couldn't take the rejection. I quit writing for 10 years. Before this event happened with my boss at the real estate agency. So, so yeah, 10 years had gone by. I didn't write a thing. And then I pulled this one out and I thought, this is an interesting story. And by that point we had websites for writers where you could post your stuff and other people could give you advice. And, you know, they weren't always nice, but I had, I'd grown a lot during this 10 years. I felt like I'd learned how to take rejection a little bit better. I remember posting this story and thinking, okay, people are going to come back and they're going to tell me how great this is, right? Well, so I got some, I got some, some critiques and I, instead of like before when I was in college, instead of immediately getting defensive, I actually listened to the criticism and I worked on the stories and made them better. And then I started writing more stories and then eventually I actually got something published, a short story, and then a few more. And then right around 2004, we moved to Arizona.

Yes.

So I quit my job as a realtor and I didn't want to start being a realtor in another state. I would have had to go to real estate school again and be state certified. I had this 5th grader and 3rd grader at home, and I wanted to be there for them after this huge move and this big transition from Michigan to Arizona. And so I thought, here's my chance. I'm going to try and write a novel. And so that's how that all happened.

So do you believe that— like, you know, there are a lot of people who believe that you're predestined, like your path is predestined. So it just seemed like, you know, all your ducks lined right up in a row. You know, here's a move. Oh, I don't want to go back to school. It's too much. This is a perfect open door for me to pursue that. So do you think that was, you know, you were predestined to do that or it's happenstance, it's serendipity?

You know, I don't know. I kind of waver between those things. I'm not sure if, you know, I think it might be more serendipitous, but I think life is a lot about seeing chances and taking them.

Nice. I love that. So speaking of seeing chances and taking them, and you talked about, you know, kind of growing a thicker skin from the rejection. What was the process that you worked on with yourself in order to not allow rejection to, like, just kill you? Because I know there have been times when I've done so. Like, there was a point in my career where I was like, I'm going to be a screenwriter, and I love it. I'm going to write movies, and I'm going to be Shonda Rhimes and all these things. And I'm going to write just like she does. The second I started writing— and then I took a couple screenwriting classes. And then, you know, after that, you know, I started trying to get some feedback and people are like, eh, I like what you're doing, but, uh, you know, so I was like, oh, I don't have the thick skin for that. How did you work yourself up to just, you know, thicken that skin so you can, you can take those shots?

You know, it really came from, um, my, my boss, my broker Dave again, who, throughout the course of the years that I worked for him, we talked a lot about— well, you get rejected in real estate too, you know, you go out and try to list a house, but that the homeowner is checking with several realtors and looking for their best deal and their best fit. And sometimes you just want it really bad, and you don't get it.

Right.

And the thing that Dave taught me was, you know, feel— you can feel bad about it for a few minutes and then you say, "Oh well, who's next?" Right. You move on. And I took that real estate lesson, I guess you call it, and I applied it to the writing. And I thought, okay, so when I finally wrote my first manuscript and tried to get it published, I would basically, you query different agents and try to get an agent. And, you know, by this time we're not mailing them in individually, we're actually sending them through email, so that was easy. But I mean, I got a lot of rejections, but I allowed myself to feel bad for 5 or 10 minutes and then I'd say, oh well, oh well, who's next, and find the right— I went at it completely differently. Like, this is an opportunity for me to look for the agent who is right for this.

Right.

Now, I never ended up getting an agent with that first manuscript, and I got about 75 rejections. So, um, but I kept writing new books, right? And so that was another thing I think I did differently.

Oh, that's perfect because I mean, so many manuscripts you wrote, but you still kept leaning into that, the tenacity to just keep going when so many times, you know, because we all compare ourselves to the things that are happening on social media and we're like, oh, if I don't accomplish it maybe by the third time, I just give up. But I mean, it's such a great example that you, you're setting for your readers. And I know for your family, I mean, because my God, the amount of success that you guys have already attained is so crazy, but we'll talk about that a little later. So when you think about your most pivotal moment, you know, I pulled on your website that when you were in 4th grade, your 4th grade teacher told you you did a good job on a story, you know, and you were picked to do the Young Authors Conference. And so I always feel like there are pivotal moments in people's life when, you know, people are like, well, you know, because as a life coach and, you know, people come to me, it's like, why, you know, I just want to figure out what my purpose is, you know, I don't know what my purpose is. It was, it wasn't until, uh, my purpose has always been in my face. And it wasn't until I thought back on who had the biggest impact on me from the very first time I could remember. And it was my 5th grade teacher who made me feel loved, appreciated, seen, heard, all those things. For the first time, I think in my life, I felt like I mattered. And then I knew, I know I want to make more money. But I'm destined to be a teacher because I want to give that back to other people. So tell me about your pivotal moment in just in knowing that this is what I came here to do.

Do you, you mean the, the 4th grade incident with Mr. Evington?

Well, if, if that's it, it may not be that, but what do you think?

There were several, there were, there were a few pivotal moments. You know, one was that moment when, you know, here I was in 4th grade and we all had to write the story and the incentive for me at that time was the person who wrote the best story would get to go to this thing called the Young Authors Conference and you would get out of school for the day and go hang out with other writers. And I heard those magic words, "Get out of school for the day." All right. That was my motivation, you know, that was what I was after. Because I was, you know, I was being bullied in 4th grade and I just wanted to get away. But I wrote this most amazing story, and to me at the moment, that's what it was. And my teacher called me out of the classroom and he said, Lisa, I just want you to know that I loved your story and I'm gonna send you to the Young Authors Conference. And everything changed there. My motivation for winning this was very, you know, it wasn't just to get out of school now, right? It had become this thing where I was the best at something for the first time, right?

Remember, that's a big deal.

It was a big deal. And, you know, I think there were other pivotal moments, um, when I've had other teachers believe in me and That, I think, helped carry that feeling throughout my childhood and into college. Mm-hmm. And yeah, and then I was sort of almost forced into— not forced, that doesn't seem right, but the opportunity when we moved to Arizona. I had just won a contest. At that time for a short story that I wrote, and it had a big prize, like money. And that was another thing that made me go, okay, maybe we can afford for me to not get an outside job, and I have the ability to actually use this money as a little nest egg, a little emergency fund, so that I can pursue this.

Oh, that's so good. So, you know, I would be remiss if I didn't hone in on something that you said in your answer, that you were bullied in 4th grade, you know. And so as an example of someone, again, who's fought through those odds and had the tenacity to come out on the other side, what would you say to someone who possibly— especially because, you know, you, you write from middle age, you know, young, young adults— what would you say to someone who may be experiencing bullying and here you're sitting today as someone who's persevered through it.

You know, I think bullying is different for each person, and so I, I feel like I'm— I don't know the— that there is one exact answer to that question, but I think that everything that we experience, if we're writers, they may not feel great at the time that we're going through them, right? Use those experiences and remember those feelings that we felt and use that in our writing. And I think that strengthens that. And then you can write a character who's really evil and make it your bully. You can name them after—

Yeah. Can you share with me, as a writer, right, in order for you to be the most productive that you can be, how do you set yourself up for your daily schedule? You get up in the morning. What does that look like? As, you know, from a New York bestselling author?

You know, I've kind of honed this over time, but at the moment I'm most productive for— in the morning for about 4 to 5 hours. And then I kind of hit a wall. So what Matt and I do is we work for, you know, from 8 until 1 or so, and then we take off like 2 or 3 hours, maybe 4 hours, watch some TV, get some good reality TV going, which which sort of allows you to not have to really think about the kind of TV show you're watching and just let it be there, have quiet time, kind of listen to that, have some food. And then we'll do an evening session for a couple of hours. And that tends to be my best productive day.

Right. Now, are those times non-negotiable? So let's say somebody comes into town and go, hey girl, you want to go to lunch? I'm going at 10:30.

Yeah. I mean, I'd, I'd make time for that most of the time. It depends where I am in the book writing process. A lot of times when I'm starting a book and writing the first draft, I will cross everything off my calendar for a month and I'll just plow through it. And I don't see people much, you know, a lot of times, I don't know, for, for me, maybe it's a little bit of an anxiety thing, but if I know I've got to do something in the evening, I'll, I'll be thinking about it all day.

Okay.

And preparing, and that distracts me. So that's why I'll clear up my calendar for a month and just get that rough draft down and then, you know, reschedule to see people and stuff after that. Okay. And give myself a little break.

But— So what do the details look like for that? Does everybody know, like, you hang a sign? Do you message people? Like, how do you set those boundaries so that you can be productive, like, from your family, from your friends?

I feel really lucky because, you know, Matt is a writer as well, and so he gets it. And it's just the two of us, right? I will often— like, we live in Sacramento, which is where our son Killian and his wife Rayla live. And so we do see them, and I'll make time for them anytime. But that's, you know, that's about it. But I'm really a loner anyway. I'm very much an introvert, and I mean, I can turn it on and be an extrovert when I'm on book tour and—

OK.

But it's exhausting.

Right.

But yeah, my natural state is sitting here alone in my apartment. So—

OK. Sounds good.

Yeah.

So you mentioned, you know, your husband Matt is a writer. You know, he's an author. And of course, I have— I've had Matt on the podcast. And a question that I asked him that I kind of want to, you know, frame— reframe with you as well is, you know, what did it look like? What were the thoughts that went through your head? Head when he's like, "I think I want to be a writer." Because, you know, some people are not supportive. Some people are like, "Wait, there is only room for one writer in this family, and how dare you take my dream." I mean, we can go down a rabbit hole with that. But he's like, "That didn't happen." Tell me what that— what was your perspective of that when he first said it?

I remember Matt told me years and years ago that he really enjoyed writing in school. And I think he may have even showed me one of his stories that he wrote in 7th grade or something like that. And I thought it was good. And, but he didn't really talk about it that much after that. But over the past few years, he started to talk about, you know, I just don't know what, if I want to write a book, I don't know what I want to do. And finally I just said, okay, listen, you've talked about this on and off. Do you want to write a book? And if you do, start writing it.

Yeah, just start.

Just start, get started. And Matt's the kind of person who, he would totally admit this, he plans And so it's hard for him to just start writing when he wasn't quite sure what he was writing.

Right.

So we pushed him a little bit. We actually went to a hotel for a couple of days to do a writing retreat, and I had to work on some stuff, and I said, "You're not leaving this hotel room until you show me your first chapter." And—

Oh, wow.

Yeah, so that's how that— that's how that all worked. It was really fun. I'm excited that he— is writing books. I think it's really cool. I think we— he's always been wonderful for me to bounce ideas off of, to help me work through a plot problem. And I know he'll, you know, I knew he would be good at it. So, right, so excited about it.

Well, that's so cool because, you know, you, you need to have that support system, you know. And he's like, you know, I'm a fool who wouldn't get Lisa McMahon to edit my stuff, you know. Right, you know, she's my wife, you know. So let's talk about your writing style, right? Because I know that you write, um, paranormal, you write realistic, you write dystopia, which I had to actually Google, which, you know, draw— it's something that draws attention to society, and fantasy. So I want you to talk about what motivated you, what pulled you, what was the magnet that pulled you towards those You know, because most people like, if I want to write, it's either going to be like Stephen King suspense, or it's going to be like Danielle Steele, Nicholas Sparks kind of thing.

Sure.

What was your pull to those different genres?

I wasn't quite sure what I wanted to write when I first began to— when I first sat down and said, okay, I'm going to write a novel. I tried a couple different things until the first one that actually stuck was my first book, Wake. And that came from a dream. And I didn't even quite know what that book was, um, because I didn't read a lot of paranormal. It's a book about a girl named Janie who gets sucked into other people's dreams. And I got the idea from a dream where I was dreaming that I was in Matt's dream watching what he was dreaming about.

Oh, wow.

And I got— I woke up in the middle of the night and I wrote it down as an idea. And in the morning, normally whenever I'd look at my notepad of dream ideas, it usually was like, this is the worst idea ever. What was I thinking, even bothering to write it down? But this time it was actually good and I couldn't stop thinking about it. And then I realized, okay, so this is a, this is paranormal. It's a little bit like The X-Files, which was something that I'd been watching. And so that's kind of how that happened. It was really accidental. I didn't set out to write something paranormal. It just sort of happened that way.

Right. And then you've just fallen in love with that. Talk to— have you read any books that fall into dystopian?

Sure, like The Hunger Games.

Okay.

The Giver by Lois Lowry was a big influence on the Unwanted series, as well as the C.S. Lewis Chronicles of Narnia. OK, that was an influence on that as well. So The Unwanted is a dystopian and fantasy series. We've got a dystopian world and then we've got a magical world.

So, OK, now you've written— this is your 25th book. And again, I heard from Melissa Meyer's podcast that you don't really write things down. How do you even keep— how do you have the bandwidth, number one, to keep up with all those details to make sure things are consistent, especially if you don't write things down? You know, I, I heard you say you put a couple things in your phone, and but, you know, you have this dream and you get up and you just start typing, but you don't do a plot outline. Tell me how that process looks when you're going from, I have an idea, I have all these things running through my head, do I go with a plot outline? What does that look like?

You know, this is such a hard question to answer because I don't know how that works. I mean, I know that I keep a lot of stuff in my head and that's getting harder the older I get, let's be honest. Yeah. But I don't know how it happens. I get an idea, a picture of something, usually it's— ah, God, this is really difficult for me to answer. There's just something, just an inkling of an idea, and I just— writing is the scene that I'm picturing. And oftentimes that ends up being the first scene of the book for me. For a lot of writers, that will often show up somewhere else in the story. But for me, I'm always picturing what are we opening with, and it has to be something in some action. Something has to just have happened, or we're in the middle of some action. And I think that's one thing that writers, young writers, might struggle with. They want to first figure out who is this character, what do they look like, how old are they, what, what are their favorite things to do, and they, they want to write that all into the first part of the story, right? But we don't want that. Your reader wants to know what's happening right now, and then we slowly learn clues about the character, and that's how I discovered who the character is too, slowly.

Right. Oh, that's beautiful. I didn't realize that because I imagine you sitting down going, what's my plot? Here's inciting incident. Here's my rising action. These are all the things that lead to the climax. Wow. So that's really eye-opening even for me. I love that. And you drop little breadcrumbs as to fulfill, like filling out that characterization. Yeah.

I think that that's sometimes I'm writing something and I don't realize what's exactly happening. And then all of a sudden I realize I just wrote something that opens up a whole new thread of action or, right, character development or whatever.

How do you fuel your creativity? Like, you know, how do you keep coming up with all these ideas? Sometimes you feel like the tank's gonna run dry, but yours doesn't.

It hasn't so far. There's a couple of things that fuel it, I guess. One is it's fun to write, but it's also my job, right? I'm the primary breadwinner, and so that's a motivation. If we don't write books, we don't get any checks. So that's really, you know, part of it. But I do write because I love it as well. And I don't know, I think of ideas constantly, and I think most people do, but we're not tuned in to feel to realize that we're thinking of ideas, right? Like, I, like, I'll be walking down the sidewalk and you know how sometimes you're walking by the park and there's a big old tree and it's— the roots have sort of lifted up the sidewalk?

Yes, yes.

You're almost gonna trip over it. And I think, what if I lift that up and there's a whole different world down there? Ooh. So there's a lot of this, what if this happens and what if that happens? One time I was driving down the 60 in Phoenix, in Mesa, and you know how there's always stuff on the side of the highway there?

Yeah.

And there's like mattresses and there's— yeah, everywhere. And there was this stroller on the side of the road, and I looked at the stroller, and I think most people would go, oh, that fell off of a truck that was moving stuff or whatever. And I thought, what if there's a baby in there? I mean, it You know, just—

Yeah.

What happens? And I think about what's the story? Like, who's going to stop and check to see if there is a baby in there? And, you know, if they do find a baby in there, what are they going to do with it? And, you know, it builds all kinds of questions. It's the what-if question that a lot of people might randomly think that throughout the day, but not realize that is the way you get ideas, right?

Oh, that's nice. That's incredible. I love that. So I know you said, you know, you're the, you're the primary breadwinner of the family. You know, a paycheck is motivation. But what keeps you accountable to the level of excellence to which you write? Do you have an accountability group? Do you have an editor who goes Lisa, this isn't as good as your last one. Like, what does that look like? How do you maintain that level of excellence?

I have a really close relationship with my editors, and Matt's usually my first reader.

Okay.

He'll give me some feedback after I give him a rough draft of something, and I'm at the point now in, in this writing career that I can tell if it's not quite okay. Yeah, I'll ask him questions that I want him to tell me you know, if I want him to be able to go, yeah, okay, that does need some work. But I'll like feed him a few questions and go, so what about this whole thing? Is this believable? Do you believe this character wants to actually do that thing?

Yeah.

But then after, after I get through Matt, I go directly to my editors, and they are very kind. I have different editors in different publishing houses, but they're all kind, which is really important for me, but they're firm as well. And they'll be able to give me some more insight on, you know, okay, think about this, what if you change this to this, and we'll work it through together. So it's a team effort.

I love that. Thank you, thank you. So today, so now I want to sort of pivot to your online event. So I want to introduce that right now, and then we're gonna take it back to how, you know, because I know this started with The Unwanted and then it became The Unwanted's Quest. So, but let's talk about the online event that is happening tonight, which today is Tuesday. This episode will come out 2 days later. If you could wave a magic wand what would it going perfectly look like for you? So when people hear this on Thursday, they're like, oh my God, she's, you know, she has tarot cards, she can really see into the future. What would that look like if everything happened perfectly with this online event?

Well, I think the thing I'm doing tonight is very fun because it's something I never normally do. I do at bookstore events. Normally at a bookstore, I'll come in, I'll talk a little bit, I might read a small passage and then take questions from the audience.

Right.

And then sign books. But for this event, I'm actually going to show the audience my school presentation, which I've been building for 10 years almost. Oh, okay. And I'm able to do that through Zoom. To like have my PowerPoint pictures on the screen.

Yeah.

I'm gonna give them my presentation. And so many of the people who are coming tonight are from Arizona where, you know, Changing Hands in Tempe, where I've done all of my launches for all of my books. And so I've got kids in the audience who were in 4th grade when the first book came out in 2011, and now they're college freshmen.

Wow.

And they've come to every single one of them and they're still reading the series, which is just phenomenal. But most of them have not ever seen my school presentation.

Okay.

So I feel like this is going to be really fun. I'm going to present everything. And a lot of my school presentation includes drawings from Killian, my son, who has been working on drawing things for me since he was 17.

Wow.

It's just a really— I think it's gonna be fantastic. And so basically I'll do that and then I'll take questions and hopefully, ideally, everyone feels happy that they came.

Okay, good. You know, and I looked at it because I got the invite on Facebook and I actually have— because it's at 6:00.

Yeah.

When I have a client, a coaching call, and I was like, argh. And so maybe, you because that call, if it's— how long do you think it'll last?

About an hour.

About an hour. Okay, so I might be able to catch a little bit towards the end. So nice. So I can sense that there's some excitement. Oh yeah, you're very excited about this event. And so do you ever think of hitting numbers? Like, you know, if, you know, 2,000 people showed up, you know, if such and such, you know, so What's the number in your head?

2,000 is a lot.

Yeah, okay, right, right.

Especially for a book. I don't really think about that.

Okay.

I know that some— it all depends on what's going on in each community that particular evening.

Okay.

Well, if people— like in normal times, people have sports events, people have theater, you know, it all depends on what what they're— and you can't take that personally. If, if I only get 30 people coming to events, that's great.

That's perfect.

Yeah, those 30 people want to be there and I want to be with them. And, you know, maybe I'll get 200 or so.

Yeah, yeah. And don't know that, right? Right. And those people gave their time. I'm a fan of throwing things out there because I believe in where you put your attention. I believe the law of attraction. So it's like, I would like, you know, 100 people, 120 people to be there, and I just keep saying that and believing it like it's just really happening. And so yeah, so that's what— so talk to us about the series. Talk to us about the Unwanted series. That was 7 books, right? And then you were motivated to continue down that path and branch off to The Unwanted Quest, so which is 10 years later. Let's say there will be people right now listening to this podcast who have no idea, they've never heard your book, you know, how can you intrigue them talking about "Unwanteds" and then transitioning to "The Quest" to want to pick up your books today?

Sure, well, I think it's a really fun story how I got the idea for "The Unwanteds." Basically one day when my kids were kids were 12 and 9. They came home from school and they had a letter in their backpacks and it said, "Dear parents, we are so sorry to tell you that we have to eliminate the arts classes from school." And I read this letter. It was, you know, for budget cuts and that sort of thing. And I read this letter and I remember feeling terrible. I remember looking at Killian and Kennedy and saying, wow, kids, I'm so sorry. I mean, Killian loved to draw. Kennedy loved to sing and act. And I said, I am so sorry, kids. This kind of feels like you're being punished for being creative. And then, as it happens with writers, we say, what if? And I said, what if there really was a world where children were punished for being creative? Right. And I said it out loud. Killian, the 12-year-old, says, "Not just punished, sent to their deaths." And I was like, I got the shiver down my spine and I was like, yeah.

Thank you, kid.

I mean, I didn't want that to happen in real life, obviously.

Right.

But if there was a world where children were sent to their deaths because they were caught doing creative things, what would that world look like? And so I began to write the first chapter of The Unwanteds, which begins in the dystopian world of Quill.

Okay.

And Alex and Aaron are identical twin brothers. They're 13 years old, and they're lined up with all the other 13-year-olds waiting to find out what category they belong in— belong to. There are the Wanteds, who have never been caught doing anything creative. Doesn't mean they didn't do creative things, right? Never been caught. And then there are the Necessaries, who might have been caught once, but then they never got caught again. And so they do all the work that the Wanted don't want to do. And then there are the Unwanted who have been caught multiple times singing or dancing or drawing in the dirt with a stick, which is what Alex has been done— they've been doing. And and they are the ones who get sent to their death. So we're sitting— standing there in the commons of Quill. Aaron is called as a wanted, so he gets to go on to university and learn how to be part of this dystopian government someday. Alex is called as an unwanted, and so the twins are immediately split up. They grab Alex, chain him to all the other unwanted. They board this bus. It takes them to the outskirts of Quill and comes to a stop outside the death farm. They get off the bus, the gate to the death farm creaks open, and they shuffle in. And they're met by these enormous hulking eliminators with these black cloaks and red beady eyes. And they, the kids, know this is the end. This is what they've heard about. This is what happens to the unwanted. But then the gate closes and things begin to change. A lawn kind of springs up out of the ground with a jungle in the distance. And the great lake of boiling oil, which is far off, which they think they're going to be thrown into, that becomes a beautiful green sea. And then this gray shack on the property turns into a beautiful mansion, and a man walks out with a colorful robe and some white hair that's kind of waving in the breeze. And he says, "Welcome, children. How does it feel to be eliminated?" And he goes on to tell them that he's the guy who's supposed to be putting the Unwanteds to death, but instead he's been secretly saving Unwanteds for years and keeping them hidden in this magical world called Arteme that he created, and he's been teaching them to use their creative abilities to do magic. Magic for fun, but also to protect themselves in case they ever get discovered and have to fight. So that's a little bit about the opening chapters of the very first book. And from there we follow—

Smoke.

—parties. We follow Alex in the magical world, Erin in the dystopian world, and find out, you know, here's Alex sitting in this magical world, you know, not dead. Very much alive, very much getting to do all the things he's always wanted to do, but knowing that his brother thinks he's dead and wishing he could tell him that he's fine but not being able to. So that's a little bit about the opening part of the first series. Right. And the world just builds and builds from there. Right. We discover other islands around, and then we go on to the new series. I feel like, I mean, like, you painted that beautifully.

Like, I'm going, I should open that book. And so I feel like there's a bit of a metaphorical feel of, you know, you're— they're going to their deaths, you know, and you have to just be brave and lean into that fear because you don't know what's on the other side of the door. And then everything, the lawn comes up, the guy's like, hey, 'Hey kids, this is actually heaven!' You know? Was that on purpose, like to give a sense of fulfillment, a sense of reward for doing something tough? Because, you know, as a reader, like I put myself in the shoes of those characters and I go, 'I don't want to do it, I'm scared to death,' but I was like, 'Oh my God, I did it, I leaned into that.' I know they were forced, but still. Well, sure.

I mean, I— You know, I think that for those kids who were in this dystopian world where it's against the law to do anything creative, for them to even defy that law is extremely brave. But it was more out of a need, you know, it's— this is just who I am as a person. And for them to find— part of the reason I wanted the magical world is because because the dystopian world is very dark, and I'm writing for children who are 8 to 12 years old, you know, up into high school, and I think we needed a balance there. Got it. It couldn't be all Hunger Games all the time, you know. Mm-hmm. So that was part of it, but when they're in the magical world, they're constantly facing challenges there too. It's not just all perfection, right?

Okay, perfect. So that is like a little bit of a summation of The Unwanted, right? So now you've closed and finished, you know, but the, the last period on The Unwanted. How do you move to The Quest?

Yeah, so I knew that I was going to be writing the second series probably around when I was writing book 5 in the first series. And I had already planted some things in the first series thinking, if I ever do another series, this is here for that purpose. Right. Expand on. One of those things was the younger set of twins, Thisbe and Pfeiffer Stowe, who are the younger sisters of Alex and Erin. Mm-hmm. They're 2 years old at the end of the first series, but we've already seen them them doing some magic without even having any training. Yeah. So we know that they're naturally magical, and they're a little bit dangerous already in the first series. Mm-hmm. So then when the first series ends, 10 years go by, and now Thisbe and Pfeiffer are 12. They're the most magical people Arteme has ever seen. But their magic is still destructive and they can't control it. So they want to do better. They, you know, they're walking around Arteme and everybody's afraid of them because, I mean, they've almost accidentally killed their brother multiple times by this point. So, you know, they're dangerous and that's— that can be hard on a child to feel like everybody's afraid of you. They're kind of dealing with that. They want to do better. And learn how to control their magic, but they can't take magical warrior training until they're 13. That's just the rule of the land. But then when some dragons return to the land of Arteme, who were— they were in the first series as well— in need of help, Bisbee and Pfeiffer feel like this is their chance to prove to Arteme that they can do good things with their magic. So they go off with the dragons into a different land that we've never been to before. But we have a lot of the same characters throughout the new series. They're all just 10 years older. And— but a lot of new adventures in a brand new setting. Yeah. And you can start with the new series if you don't want to read the first series. If you just like the dragons and stuff, the dragons are more prominent in the second series The Quests. And you can start with that first book. You don't have to read the first series. Right. If you don't want to. Okay.

So you don't, you're not going to be missing this whole foundation that was laid with the first book. You are.

I mean, you'll miss some things, but I've written enough into the first book that you'll get the gist of what happened.

Right. Okay. So tell us about the incredible book that's available on sale today and how can we get our hands on it? There it is, baby!

You know what, I think it's my favorite cover of all of them. Yeah, and Killian did that, right? No, he doesn't do the covers. Okay. Owen Richardson is the artist for these books. Killian wasn't really old enough and professional enough yet when we started the first series, so we kept the same artist throughout all Okay. But you can pick it up at your local bookstore. You can buy it through bookstores online. There's a website called bookshop.org which works with all independent bookstores, and it actually helps them, which they need some help right now. So that's a great place to do it. You can also get it from Barnes Noble or Amazon. Amazon in different formats. It's available in ebook, hardcover, audiobook. Yeah, I think the audiobook is out. If not, it should be out soon.

I love a good audiobook. Now, do you read them?

No. Okay. No, I don't think I'd be very good at that. No, I think I'd be exhausted.

You know, there's something about when it's the author of the book. I find that I really enjoy that rather than some— like if Lisa McMahon, the female, wrote it, and then, you know, Bob White is reading the book and it doesn't even sound like Lisa McMahon, you know, because he's Bob White, you know?

So I'm like, oh, you know. Yeah, I don't think— I think the narrators of my Unwanted books are amazing because they are doing all the different voices of the different characters. Living statues. We've got this big Simba who's on the COVID of a lot of the books who rolls his Rs, so— okay, special skill that I don't think I have. So let them do that. And they're all actors who read them. So, okay, wonderful.

Perfect, perfect. So the book that's out today is Dragonslayer. Dragonslayers, is that indicative of what is to be found in the story? Is there someone slaying dragons? There may be. Okay, okay. What's, what's the little bit of something? Give us a little bit of a nugget for Dragonslayers.

So for Dragonslayers, this was one of the hardest books I've ever written. And it's because Fizby, one of the twins, has to do something completely out out of character for herself in order to try and save all the people from the evil revenir who has been plaguing them for many books now. And she has to— she's an actor, by the way— and she has to do something that will make everyone think that she's turned against them. Them. So it's very hard for her personally to have to fool a bunch of people that she loves, and she's worried very much that they might never forgive her. Oh, so there's a little nugget.

Nice. Yeah, thank you, thank you for that. I think you've been practicing that.

I haven't, but— No? You are the author. Now we are. Now here we are.

I love that. I love that. So I read somewhere that you have an app, like an Unwanted app. Like you can go to the Apple, like on your iPhone and get an app.

You sure can.

What, what does that app look like and why should people grab that app today?

Well, the app is just a blast. Um, and I have to tell you, I have nothing to do with it. It's not, I didn't make it. Basically, this wonderful young man named Elias came to my agent and said, you know, I'm 19 years old, I want to develop apps as a job, and I want to have something for my portfolio or resume. And I just happened to love The Unwanted, and I read every book multiple times. I know everything about it. "Can I make an app for this series?" And we honestly, that's a tough question because there are rights involved, like who has the rights to everything and all the different covers and the story and then whatever. We had to, you know, work through some, some red tape in order to make it happen. But I admit I had low expectations for what it would look like, and it turned out to be the coolest thing. Elias created this place where, like, all the characters are listed with a description, all of the magical spells are there with descriptions, all of the places that they visit are described there. But even more than that, so it's a good, like, reference place but there are chat rooms, there are places where you can, if you like to draw, you can upload your art. Oh, that's so cool. And there are like places where you can post your stories if you write fan fiction. And it's just this wonderful place for young adults, for young people. You have to be 13 to join, but, and they all through, you know, the summer, they were just chatting in the chat rooms. They've made these friends from across the world, really, and have really formed some bonds. And just hundreds of kids have found this app, and I highly recommend it. I will go there every few months. Elias and I will schedule a chat where everybody can write their questions to me and I can see them, and then I speak the answers just to make it faster so I'm not type being super fast, right? But yeah, we figured that out too, and that's been really fun.

That's so cool, so cool. So out of your 25 works, you know, it's like, which one's your favorite child? Which one? Because I can tell you, like, I remember when you gave me this autographed copy of Crier's Cross, and I read it on vacation, like, the summer after this, and it's a little creepy.

Uh, yeah, that's my scariest book.

Yeah, and I was like, I was like, oh man, but this one is my favorite, Crier's Cross, and this is one of your earlier ones.

Yes, it is, and actually it's, the main character is sort of based on my daughter Kennedy.

Yeah, 'cause her name is Kendall.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And so that was a lot of fun. That's my Stephen King light book. But, and this probably the scariest one, and I can actually, You know, I can write scary things. I don't like to read them, but if I'm writing them, I know what's gonna happen next. Yeah. So I'm okay with it that way.

Okay. So, so is that your favorite?

Oh, um, boy, what's my favorite? Oh, that's a really hard question. It's usually the one I'm working on. Okay. At the moment. Although I want to say that this one is is right up there. Dragonslayers. Also Island of Graves, which is the 6th book in the first series. That one is also really— yeah, close to your heart.

Nice. So, you know, because I always want my listeners to find value in listening to this podcast, as a New York bestselling author, you know, what is the most valuable piece of advice that you think you could share with someone who's they don't really have the full level of confidence to follow through, they're kind of teeter-tottering on the fence of, "I don't know if I can do this." What would be your advice to them today?

Well, I would say that, you know, writing is about talent, and the way to become a better writer is to write a lot. Mm-hmm. Continue to write. Being an author is you know, a lot about talent, but it's also a lot about being tenacious, being a go-getter, continuing to try even when you fail. Yeah. Once you give up, it's over, you know. If you keep trying, your chances continue to be there for becoming successful. So it's part talent, part tenacity, part luck. Okay. And the more you try, the better chances you have of getting lucky as well.

Got it, got it. So, you know, you have a very creatively successful family. Would you say you— how much do you think you have to do with that? With— because, I mean, you know, they're not like stockbrokers brokers, they're not, you know, working in a bank, that kind of thing. You know, Kennedy is Nancy Drew as an act, you know, a working professional actor. Killian is a graphic design artist, right? How do you think your, your, your path has encouraged and influenced their choices?

That's a great question. Um, I mean, I think they've seen me strive for great things, but I feel like they have something inside of them naturally. You know, we didn't ever try and push them in any specific directions. We tried to hear what they were saying to us on what they wanted to do, and we tried to encourage them and give, you know, see what kinds of opportunities we could help with for that. But it's inside them, you know. I, I feel like If, oh man, you know, when Kennedy was trying to find colleges, for instance, you know, she ended up going to Carnegie Mellon, which was just really difficult to get in there as an actor. They only took 5 girls that year, and out of 2,000 that auditioned. And she was one of those 5. So that is amazing odds. But we couldn't have forced her. To do what she had to do in order to be prepared for her audition there. You know, she had it in her. So it's just a natural thing. Killian, with his drawing, he would come home from college for Christmas break or whatever, and he'd sit at the table for hours just working on stuff during his vacation time. It's just something that's in him. There's a drive in him. There's a drive in Kennedy that is pushing them to be their best. So maybe I was influential in the fact that they saw me do that as well, right? But, um, I don't feel like I had a whole lot to do with their success.

Okay, so just a couple more questions, okay? Um, when you define the level of success that you have achieved achieved in your life, would you say this is— you have created the life and you're living the life that you always imagined for yourself and your family? I'd say yes and no.

Yes, I feel like I've accomplished a lot more than I ever expected, but I'm always striving for more.

Okay, and so transitioning right into that next one, what is that more? What is it like, you know, because we all —think, you know, a lot of times you probably have heard the quote of, you know, the highest percentage of dreams are in the cemetery. So many people take their dreams to the grave, you know. What is something that you're like, looks impossible today, I have no idea how I'm going to accomplish it, but it sure would be great if I can get it done? What is that thing for you?

I would love to, to see some of my works made into some sort of TV or movie production, and I'd love to be a part of that. Yeah. You know, not just watch somebody turn my books into a film or, you know, whatever, an animated TV show or whatever, but I'd love to like learn how to do that and be a part of that. And I know that's probably not what anybody who works on TV and film wants to hear because they don't want the author there telling them what to do. When she doesn't know anything about that. Right. But I'd love to learn about it, you know, and so there's that goal of seeing something that I've written, yeah, to film or TV. There's also the goal of hitting number 1 on the New York Times bestseller list, which has just eluded me so far. We've made it to number 4, That's the best placement I've had so far.

Which is incredible.

I think it's incredible too. I'm really proud of it. And I— but I still want number one.

Absolutely. Because you always have to continue to strive for something. You do.

And, you know, I've always been someone who writes goals. Like I have a 1-year goal, 5-year goal. I love that. That kind of thing. Where I want to be. And I feel like I've accomplished so much. Already. But there are those two things that I'm always looking for.

Right. And just, just the last question before we find out how we can connect with you. How do you maintain the motivation to achieve those goals outside of being the primary breadwinner, outside of, you know, a paycheck, those types of things? Because, you know, a lot of people are like, motivation comes in waves, you know, but if you remember your big why, what is that big why outside of the those, you know, material things?

You know, this— there are different levels of answers to that question, I think. Yeah. You know, the big why— I want people to remember me. Oh, you know, I don't want legacy. Yeah, it's my legacy. I want these books to still be there after I die. Mm-hmm. I want that, you know, that's definitely there. But also the why now is, I don't know, I just don't know what I'd do if I didn't. Yeah. You know, if I didn't keep striving and keep writing and, you know, I think, you know, one of the things that motivates me is a deadline.

Yeah.

If I'd stopped having deadlines, maybe I you know, I'd take it more easy, but, but I kind of like having a deadline.

Yes, we need a deadline. So if you want people to remember you, what is it that you want them to remember you for?

I want people to grow up, kids to grow up, kids who've read my books and look back fondly at those books the way that I look back at some of the books I read when I was a kid. You know, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, The Chronicles of Narnia, Charlotte's Web. I have the warm feeling, you know, gives me a little chill maybe, when I think about those books and what they meant to me, and I can picture myself as a 10-year-old sitting in my living room, sitting the wrong way in a chair with my legs flung over one arm, my neck up against the other one, and reading my book maybe with a bowl of popcorn or something, reading Charlotte's Web and reading all about Fern and thinking, if the right girl and the right pig and the right spider all got together, they really could talk to each other. I bet. And believing that, you know? I love that. I want that for my readers when they're 52 like I am and thinking back. Back on their childhood.

Oh, that's perfect. That— and that you will have created an extraordinary legacy. So absolutely. So just the last thing, you know, where— what is— I know we can all go to your website, but how do you like people to connect with you? You know, is that Facebook? Is— just tell us a little bit your preferred method.

I prefer Instagram. That's my favorite place. And on Instagram, Twitter, and Snapchat I am Lisa_McMahon. Okay. Facebook, I have a fan page that's called McMahon Fan, and I have a personal page as well that people can follow me there. I don't accept a lot of friend requests there, just— I don't know, half— what, you know, there's a lot of shady stuff happening on Facebook. Yeah. And I don't post there a lot. But I am there. Okay. So I have a WordPress blog that I post to infrequently. Mm-hmm. I think that's about it. Okay, cool. My website is lisamcmahon.com, and there's a dedicated website to the Unwanted series called unwantedseries.com. Yeah. A lot of interactive things to do. There's teacher guides, for all of the books, individual guides for each book, just to, you know, with questions in them if you're teaching this. So like worksheets? Yeah, not worksheets, but more like just questions.

Okay, during the time of COVID baby, that could be like gold.

For sure. And you can, you know, download them. There's a lot of the drawings that Kilian did for me over the course of years. As each book came out, he'd draw I draw one or two more things and a lot of those are there. Yeah. Well, and there's some games to play and some videos of like book trailers. So you can check out stuff there.

That's perfect. Perfect. I didn't know you were on Instagram, so I'm going to go and start following you today. So because I do, you know, I know we're friends on Facebook. So, so, guys, so, Lisa, thank you so much for giving your time because that's the most precious thing that we have to give. Is our time. And I know this has been— we've gone well over an hour. And so thank you for that. And so the last thing I would say, everybody run out and get your copy of Dragonslayers. That doesn't mean you have to run to the bookstore, right? That means go sit down at your computer and order it on Amazon. There you go. There we go.

Thank you so much, Travia. Absolutely.

So thank you, Lisa. If you like what you're hearing, And perhaps you're interested in having a complimentary conversation with me. Click the link at the bottom of the show notes. Thank you so much for listening. If you even want to know more about what I'm up to, head over to traviestewart.com. And if you like seeing the videos of the podcast, every episode is on my YouTube channel. Take care, guys.