How Author Del Shores found his authentic voice

You are listening to episode number 12. Thank you so much for joining us today. My goal with these conversations is to explore different types of people and their successes as well as their failures in navigating and mapping out their lives so that you too may have more insight in what it takes to build the life that you envision for yourself. I believe if you take action each day, the life that you want can be closer than you think. Welcome to Work That Out, guys, your guide to connecting authentically, living with purpose, and having no regrets. This is a show that gives you real stories and real examples of people working it out and creating the life that they want. My guest today is LA-based writer, director, producer, stand-up comedian gay and human rights activist. He is the author of "Cheatin'," "Daddy's Dyin': Who's Got the Will?" "Sorted Lives: The Movie," "Sorted Lives: The Series," and "A Very Sorted Wedding," which was written and produced in 2016, just to name a few. He has also earned acclaim with various nominations from Drama Critics Circle Awards, the NAACP Theater Awards, Backstage West, Garland Awards, LA Weekly Awards, just to name a few. He also received a Golden Palm Star on the Palm Springs Walk of Stars in 2006. Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for joining us today. My guest today is none other than shit stirrer himself, Mr. Del Shores. So Del Shores, welcome to Work That Out Podcast, and introduce yourself to my listeners, as well as adding in what kind of shit have you recently stirred?

Oh, what have I stirred up lately? Um, I guess that, you know, the most recent is kind of just like— well, it's not silly, it's not silly. I, I, I got into it with some of the Vanderpump Rules cast. You know, I don't know if you— I, I, I watch a lot of reality shows. It's my pleasure. And the other day they fired 4 cast members of Vanderpump Rules, the show that I watch, which is, by the way, Vanderpump Rules is one of those shows that has the most despicable people on it. So it just always makes me feel better about myself. I thought, oh, I'm a really good person after I watch these horrible—

only after you watch them.

But there was some racist stuff that was going on, and they, you know, they went back, dug up some tweets, and and some actions. And so I got blocked by one of them, but that's okay. You know, it's like I get blocked a lot on Twitter because— Oh yeah. Yeah, you know, I'm a Southern Baptist preacher's kid. So there's a lot of people who use scriptures as tools and I can fling it right back at them.

Wow.

And you know, you go after me with that book, I'm able to quote some scriptures too. You know, I can cherry pick just like you.

Absolutely.

So that, I, yeah, I, I think I get this. I don't know if you can see that woman right there with the big hair. Okay, that's my mother. She was nice. She was the first shitster.

Okay, and you got it honest.

We, I got it honest. Oh, I love that. That's such a great Texas expression. Yeah, well, he got it honest.

He got it honest.

My brother too. My brother's a bit of one too.

Yeah. Oh, good, good. So tell me a little bit about, you know, I know you were raised, that you were born and raised in Texas. Tell me a little bit about that gap between being married to Kelly, having two beautiful daughters, and becoming a gay rights activist. What was that path for you?

You know, once I found that voice inside of me and wasn't ashamed of that voice and who I am and started being honest with myself, it sort of just started pouring out of me. It was so pent up in my work and in words and actions. But, you know, being a preacher's kid, I guess the best way to describe it, yes, people say, well, did you, when did you know you were gay? Well, I always knew I was attracted to guys, always. I always had that, but it was this just, this shameful hidden secret. I mean, it's so interesting that I go back now. The other day I was going through my garage because we had this big Sorted Lives auction. I had all these journals that I had written over the years. There is not one mention of struggling with being gay. I went through, I became obsessed. I was so scared of it ever being exposed. But then once I had a great therapist, quite frankly, and I was struggling really hard, and Dr. Sandra Baca, was a huge influence in me coming out. And, you know, because you get so immersed, you're in a marriage.

Right.

I love her family. I'm still very, very close to Kelly's family. And, you know, Kelly and I talk weekly. But yeah, it just— it got overwhelming. And I— once I finally said, okay, this is who I am. This is not going away. You can't pray this away.

Right.

It unleashed not only an authenticity in my persona, but an authenticity in my work, I feel.

Right, right. So I watched today your video with your Aunt Sissy.

Oh, I love that video so much. I'm so glad you found that. I did.

I watched that. And you know, something that I, you know, totally relate to is that, you know, you— and then you did the monologue. You also did the monologue at your mother's funeral, you know, about the husky genes.

Yeah.

And then, you know, something else you said was, you know, changing the labels. Changing the label, what, to husky, and then changing the labels from gay to straight.

Yeah.

I thought that was such a poignant moment in that whole conversation. And then, you know, you just— and she just overlooks it. You just throw these things in there, and, you know, she just overlooks it.

You just go—

so did you naturally have that wit? Like within your family, like on Thanksgiving, you know, it would come out of you, you know, out of the side of your neck, every pore. How did you develop that?

My mother's family. I mean, you saw it. If you saw my Aunt Sissy, they all had a natural comedic timing about their storytelling. You know, I don't— do you remember the moment in that video where I just loved it so much? And I sometimes when I teach acting, I show that video because the authenticity of what is said between words. And it was a church service going on in the rest home. And I said, do you not— I said, why aren't you in church? And she goes, why aren't you? And then I said, do you ever think you'll go back or something like that? And she just sort of drifted away. Just, you just saw the pain. That was, you know, that was in there. And but, but that, but the comedic timing, bam. Well, why, you know, why don't you, or why aren't you?

She just, she was a hoot.

She was, yeah. And, you know, she passed away about 3 or 4 weeks after.

I read that. Yeah, I'm so sorry about that.

She just, you know, because of course she was always slipping out and some cigarettes, and when you get pneumonia and you've been smoking and compromising your lungs all that time, right?

Now, that wasn't part of the COVID That wasn't like this spring.

No, no, no. OK. Several years ago.

She had—

OK. Let's see, my Aunt Sissy would have been, I guess, 83 or 84 right now. So it was probably 4 years ago. Oh, wow. OK. Yeah, no, it was not. It was just pneumonia, and then bam. Right, right.

So I want to delve into your show that's streaming right now on BroadwayHD. The story about 4 boys who are all gay growing up in Southern Baptist church, and, you know, it says it's how they deal differently with conflict with the teachings of the church and the sexuality, you know, and that Southern Baptist sissies.

Yeah.

How much of that is motivated from within in writing that story?

Pretty much all of it.

All of it.

Yeah, that was, um, you know, when you were talking about the husky genes, back to Dr. Sandra Baca, she gave me a very valuable tool in my own therapy. And she said, you have to start writing these things down. You need to write down the pain. And so when I told her the husky jeans story, which is a true story— I mean, the only difference is my mother took labels from my brother's jeans and put them on my jeans, right? And when I wrote that, that was the first thing I think I wrote of Sorted Lives. And with Sissy's, it was, it was almost like self-medication. Once it started pouring out of me, because I, you know, you think, oh, I've been to so much therapy, I've dealt with this, this is all over, I'm done. And then something happened, a big event happened in the gay community, and Matthew Shepard was murdered.

Okay.

And what triggered me when he— with his murder was I was reading an article. It was probably online, or maybe it was in Newsweek or something. And they were interviewing a girl, one of the girlfriends of one of the killers. And behind her, in what looked like in an apartment or a trailer, was a picture of Jesus. And it just hit me. I thought, oh my God, I wonder if the hatred started in the church, in those church pews, where it started for me, you know, that self-loathing. And I started questioning that as Mark. I mean, that Mark's kind of more of my, who I am with my crazy mind and thinking too much. And it just started, it started writing itself, you know, once I discovered the four boys. And I always say each sissy is a part of me.

Right.

So I wrote it without Peanut and Odette originally. And, you know, they're a lot of the comic relief. And I, it's so funny, I was just texting with Leslie Jordan right before, 'cause he— So funny. Yeah, he's become such an Instagram crazy sensation right now. But he, we had a bunch of his costumes from Brother Boy up for auction and the collage from Sorted Wedding, and the auction just ended right before your podcast. And we raised like $25 grand in additional theaters and all his stuff. I said, all your shit just sold, Leslie. It just sold. You sound just like him. They got in bidding wars over that robe. And oh my God, I've got— no, so I showed the play, 'cause Leslie was always, you know, we've been friends since 1984. And I always would throw in my material and have him read it. And he read Southern Baptist Sisters, he goes, oh honey, people are just gonna kill themselves. You have to. Lighten it up, something, bring something. And so I said, okay. So then I added Pino Dono Dead. And he said, well, I didn't mean that you had to write my life in bars. I was like, because I just basically started lifting all these stories that he had told me when he was still drinking, you know, unless he's been sober for many years. And so then I said, well, will you play it? He goes, well, of course I'll play it. And you know, that was a great, it was just a beautiful time in my life when Sissy's opened because, I don't know, were you raised in the church?

Yes, I was.

Well, I don't know where you are there now, but you know, it feels like, there's a line in Sissy's, how do you embrace something that doesn't embrace you?

Ooh.

And that was, that was big for me. And, you know, and then there was a moment where Mark said, I miss the church, the sweet old ladies, the covered dish fellowships and the singing. And so I celebrated all of that. But I got to tell you that Southern Baptist guilt, that hellfire and brimstone, when that play opened, I thought it may be over for me. You know, people are not going to love this. I'm going to get bad reviews. I mean, all of the stuff that you, you know, those monkeys start chattering in your head.

Right. —And were your parents still alive then?

They were, they were, but they never saw it. They never saw it, and it did cause a lot of conflict in my family, that play, just because it became such a big thing. But the, you know, the— what happened though was I thought I was telling my story, but I was telling a lot of other people's story as well. And I cannot tell you how many letters that I've gotten of about that particular play in that movie. I still do. I mean, the one thing about COVID is everybody's home, so they're watching.

Watching and streaming everything.

Yeah, and anything with Leslie Jordan, because he's got 5 million followers on Instagram now. God, he's so funny.

So have your family come to terms with, have they accepted all the things? Like, you know, because your writing, I mean, it's there in your face, and you know, and there were a couple of critics who were like, you know, one minute he has you, you know, busting a gut, you know, laughing so hard, and the next minute you're on the verge of tears, you know. So, I mean, such a talent in writing. As a matter of fact, because I was Cassie Watson's first director in high school.

Oh my God. So, Texas? In Texas, in Harlton, Texas. Did y'all do UIL? We did. You did? Oh my, that is so— I was— that's why I do what I do, you know. My mother was a high school drama teacher. That's what she said.

She said, "You and Del will get along so great." Oh, I love it.

I love that she directed Cassie. Yeah.

And what's so great about, you know, because Cassie will just work her tail off for you. I mean, she will just go to the moon and back. And she's so, you know, because she's just so giving. And when you were talking about, you know, just being raised in the town. And so I was born and raised in the New Orleans area, but I lived in Texas for 14 years, East Texas. Yeah. And I remember when I first got hired at Harrelton, I always considered myself a Christian, you know, because I was Catholic, raised in a church. What else would you be, you know, from the South? And I got hired and the next day went to work and I, and I was also coaching softball and I got in the van with the other coaches and you know what the first question they asked me, are you a Christian and have you accepted our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ into your life? First question. Wow. Yeah. And so then, you know, you feel the need to have to fit in. Well, of course I have, you know, and then so that just led down a whole road of, oh my God, this is who these people need me to be. But the Catholic—

with Catholicism, that's not really accepting Jesus as your personal savior. That's, that's a whole Baptist thing.

Oh, absolutely. East Texas Baptist. Born again.

By the way, my parents and my brother lived in Palestine for years. Mm. So, yeah, I've got some East Texas background as well.

Yeah, so when I look back at that time in my life, it's like, you know, it's like, how did Del break out of that whole taboo of, I really want to write these things, but they're really not my stories, but they really are. Oh, my family doesn't approve. Oh, they do, you know? Like, when did you actually cross the line to where you really didn't just, you didn't give a shit?

I didn't give a shit? Yeah. Yeah, when I wrote Sorted Lives. I remember, I remember, it's so funny. You're good. I remember the, I just remember the day that I made the decision. I know where I was. I was in this, I was renting a house because my ex-wife and I, Kelly and I had split up and we were, you know, sharing custody of the girls. The girls were asleep and It was on the weekend. And I remember writing some— a scene with— it was Latrell and Lavonda and Sissy in Sorted Lives. And I remember knowing that— in my head, I go, oh, my mother's going to see this. And then— oh, the laundry's done. I said, no, I'm not going to censor myself anymore for her. I'm not going to censor myself for anybody anymore. I'm going to tell the truth in this play. I have to tell it completely. And I made that decision that day. And anytime that urge came to me, because it had in the past, I mean, you know, even with profanity, how much do you use, you know? Yeah. Or what do you, or do you censor yourself or in subject matter? And I decided not to. And so yes, it presented some conflict in my family, especially with Sissy's. I mean, they were kind of removed from it until it hit Dallas. And then when Southern Baptist Sissy's roared into Dallas, and I'm telling you, it was nuts there because we had done very well here. We had won the GLAAD Award already. We came in with this play Southern Baptist Sissies, and you probably saw the image of the guy on the cross in the Speedo. Well, you can imagine how that went over. Right. It went over very well on Cedar Springs and Oak Lawn. Oh, of course. In the gayborhood. In the gayborhood, yes. But what transpired was we tried to buy an ad in the Dallas Morning News. With our logo, with our poster. And then they got some, there was some backlash about the poster that started, you know, coming up and they did, they thought, well, let's write about it. So they wrote an article in the religion section of the Dallas Morning News about my controversial play. And they had pastors weighing in and they were going at me. They were going, you have taken our image, you have desecrated the cross, you have, this is our trademark. And so then one of the local news stations picked up on it and they interviewed me in the, I was gonna say in the church, but it was on the set of Sissy's. In the beautiful McKinney, you know, the McKinney, It's not there anymore, MC McKinney Contemporary Theater. But the journalist said, you know, what's the difference between this church and the church you grew up in? And I said, the church where people come here is about love and acceptance and understanding for everybody. I didn't grow up with that. And then in the broadcast, they cut to this little wiry veins popping out of his neck, pastor just going, "If you go to this play, you will burn in hell." I mean, he's just screaming. So, "There will be protests. There will be protests. We will protest." And I'm like, bring it on. There was one, only one person protested. Leslie Jordan said, "Oh, honey, Baptist don't protest in the heat." It was too— they're not gonna get out for a protest. It's hot. It's hot. But that aired and the place sold out without one review, completely. I couldn't even get tickets for my friends. Wow. It was just, you know.

That's a definite win-win.

It was, but my brother lived there and my brother also was at the time a Southern Baptist preacher and it was pretty horrifying for him. And I understand it more, at the time I was just like, well, this is my life and I'm da da da. You know, but I understood it. I understand it now more, and we're very close again, but it took a long time because he took it very personally that I was attacking his, um, you know, I don't like the word brand, but you know what I mean. It was very difficult for him, and you know, Shores is not a very— I mean, people, the name Shores is not very common.

Right. So, in making amends with that, did you have to apologize?

I didn't. I didn't feel the need to say, I'm sorry I wrote this play. I did, I have had conversations where I feel that I could have done better in my response. Response in my communications because I would get so hotheaded. And same with him. And so I think in our— as we have gotten older, and both, you know, our parents, both, we've all— we're it. That's it. I've got my brother, that my blood relation, that I've got my brother and, you know, some random cousins. But, right. But we don't talk about some of the subjects that were such hotbeds for us. MacDonald. Right. We talk a lot about Trump these days. Oh God. It's amazing because my brother, Dexton, was, you know, he was Republican for most of his life until Trump came along. And boy, has he flipped because he woke up. Well, yeah. And also my brother, my brother was always awake to him. My brother wasn't like these, what I call these so-called Christians who act like he's someone who's not. My brother knew who he was. So, so anyway, uh, so yeah, yes, so yeah, it's caused some family conflicts, but in that, uh, nothing that terminated anything, right?

Well, good, good. That's good to hear. So now we know when, you know, you didn't give a shit. When was it, you know, when was the moment that you really realized that I made it? I have arrived, I made it. Was it 1991 when you worked with Beau Bridges in Deltabird? When was that moment? That's so funny you said Beau.

I love Beau so much. He's probably the sweetest human I've ever worked with. He and Olivia Newton-John, they're both, they could compete with each other on being good people. They're just such good people. When I was filming Daddy's Dying, Who's Got the Will, which was 30 years ago because my ex-wife was pregnant with my daughter, I remember Bo had just done The Fabulous Baker Boys and it was released while we were filming. So Bo flew back to California to do The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson, and Bo on The Tonight Show said Johnny, I want you to watch out for this young writer named Del Shores. And I thought, oh my God, I may have not have ever been on The Tonight Show, but my name was said on The Tonight Show. Absolutely. But I think it was with the success of Daddy's Dying, I do. I think when it was released wide in Texas, and, you know, come on, flying first class for the first time on the Dime of it, you know, MGM with Beverly D'Angelo and Judge Reinholdt, Beau Bridges, and Tess Harper, and Keith Carradine. Right. It was, I remember there was a thunderstorm, like a horrible thunderstorm. I'd never felt turbulence that bad. Ooh. We were coming to the USA Film Festival in Dallas to premiere Daddy's Dying. And I thought, well, if I die, at least I'll, it'll make the paper. 'Cause look at all, look at all who I'm with.

Oh my God, that's incredible. So, you know, you have, you've reached such a level of success. You know, you've won GLAAD Awards, you've been nominated time and time again. When was there a time in your life where you failed miserably?

What are you, like Barbara Walters?

Well, you know, because part of it is, is that we want to see, you know, you're such a successful guy, but people usually don't talk about their failures.

Well, I told you it was off limits, but I guess since I'm going to bring it up, I think I failed miserably. Uh, it was, it was with after Sorted Lives the series, and when we were just cheated so badly and finances just started leaving me, and I'd been so used to a certain level of lifestyle, and all of a sudden I had no money. I mean, it was like 2 years of legal hell. This man stole so much money from us, and a series that was a hit just started going down. And in that, also realizing that at the end of that journey, that my marriage was not what I thought it was. So, uh, I felt a lot— yeah, I felt a lot of failure at that point. Uh, and, uh, but you know, here's the deal. I went to, um, I went to an Al-Anon meeting right after that. Leslie Jordan told me I'm talking about Leslie a lot today, but he's relevant, I guess. He is. But Leslie's been a big influence in my life, and he said, "We gotta get you to an Al-Anon meeting." And I said, "Leslie, I've been to Al-Anon meetings. I don't wanna go to an Al-Anon meeting because those," I said, "those people just share, and it's just, they're just so pathetic." And he said, "Honey, you are one of the pitiful. You're going with me." So, but you know, it was such a dark period for me. I mean, I walked into that and I just, it was like, you know, the clouds all around you almost. And I remember this African American woman stood up and she welcomed the newcomers. And she said something that just made no sense at the time. I like, I was going, oh, you're full of shit. And she said, you know, newcomers, a lot of you probably are going through a very dark period in your life right now. But one day you're going to look back on that time and you're going to see that that's the time where light shined in. And that's what happened because I wasn't supposed to be in that. And light did shine in and it redefined my life and my career and it made me a better person. I care more about people. I mean, I, I, got up on stage again. I would have never, I would have never gotten back on stage. Like as a stand-up comedian or actor? If it hadn't been for that dark period, I mean, I'd started performing again before he left, but that dark period that started with the series going and no money coming in, you know, I was locked in a contract for almost 3 years where I couldn't work. Work in television, which was my mainstay for many years. That's where I made my money. And I wasn't able legally to work during that time. So all I was seeing is money going out, none coming in. The only way I could make money is to stand on stage with a microphone. And I have to give my ex-husband credit for saying, "You should do that." And I did. I wrote my first one-man show. So I— but I don't know about you, but Sometimes these dark periods, it's like, I look at right now, right? It feels like a really dark period.

It does. Tell me a little bit more about your mindset, because generally, like everything that you just explained to me, the average person will go crawl into a hole and stay in that hole. I mean, you sort of, it sounds like you clawed your way back. What was the mindset? Like, how did you even have, you know, the knowledge that you could make this happen again?

Or did you? Well, I had a drive and it was two girls. Okay. And that's, I mean, I knew I could not disappoint my, I had, I had, had to do it for my kids. And I fell apart a few times in front of them. And I mean, it was a really difficult time because sometimes you don't want to get out of bed. You just go, I, you know, debt collectors, whatever are going to happen today. This is how I wake up. Right. And, but I had to do it for them. And, and I had to do it for me too. And I, there's something that's always been resilient about me. I'm a highly ambitious person. I don't stop often. And I just, I knew I had to go on.

That's perfect. What does that mean? What does that look like on a day-to-day basis that you're highly driven, you keep going, but do you wake up and go, I'm going to accomplish this, this day? Like, do you always have—

you got a to-do list, don't you? Like, this is what it looks like. Wow, there it is. That's what Friday's gonna be, kind of. Friday's gonna be all right.

It's gonna be a little slow that day.

You know, we have it— I have a show on Friday from 4 to 5, so I have to prep before that. Okay. But like, you prep today, right? Right. So I don't book a whole lot of things on Fridays and Tuesdays because of that. But yeah, you know, I organize, I have a list. I don't feel— I'm so OCD that if I have to tick those things off, so if I write it down, I have to do it. Like after you, I have one thing that I have.

Okay, that you have to do and you'll get it done.

And then I'm done with it and then I can go watch the news and—

Yeah, yeah, and get infuriated maybe. Perfect. Yeah. Let's talk about Six Characters in Search of a Play. And this is, you know, it showed at several film festivals. Are you the actor in that?

I am, yes. That is so incredible. I wrote and performed it. And Emerson Collins, who I have directed many times, it'd be kind of like Cassie going, okay, now I'm going to direct you. Right. Boy, did you get even with me. Because I am so, as a writer, a writer-director, I go, you're gonna say my lines as written. Right. I'm very big about that. And suddenly, you know, he goes, you're ad-libbing a little bit there. You can't do that. You can't do that. You have to honor the playwright. I am the playwright. And so it was the most difficult thing I've ever done. It really was. It— to memorize 90 minutes. Yeah. All of those characters. It was 6 characters, but there were 27 total. Holy smokes. In that. And one of them was my Aunt Sissy. I would love to— you know, you don't have to subscribe to it. I got a link. I can send you a link. Please. Yeah. I loved it. I'll send you a link. Absolutely. I'm really proud of it. And Emerson did a great job directing me. He had done— are you familiar with Buyer and Cellar? The one-man show about Barbra Streisand's basement? I am not. Well, it's— Emerson did that show. Okay. So I knew that he was the right person to direct me. Just because— not just because he had done that. Also because I think that I don't intimidate him on any level. There's nothing. He just, he stands right there with me. I mean, we're together all the time and we just had a great time. So I loved doing it. I really loved, I did 77 live shows.

Holy smokes.

And then we filmed it. Yeah. And it turned out really great.

What do you think was the massive appeal that made it like such a gem for festivals? What do you think they loved about it that said, we want this?

I was shocked, honestly, that— because it's not a traditional film. I mean, it's like Sissy's also was very successful in the film festival. And we basically, we took Sissy's, Southern Baptist Sissy's, as a model to film that. We filmed it with 3 cameras in a theater. I think, you know, I think a lot of— like a lot of my material, especially if you look at the film festivals that played, it was mostly Southern. Okay. And they just get me. I always say, you know, with those Southern audiences, I never have to explain why Latrell picks up a pie and turns it over and looks and never said one— she goes, who made this? And then just puts it down and people from the North go, what was she doing? I go, she's looking for the name of the— the tape with the name under the pie plate. Southerners get it. They get the humor. They get the brand. There was also something about 6 characters that I had never done before. Okay. I'd never— I'd written about my mother, but there was a part of my mother that I never wrote about because my mother was a very proud person. My mother died when she was 64. And— So young. Yes, she was so young, and my mother had a brilliant mind, and she lost her mind. So my mother's official cause of death was dementia, but what she really died of was opiate addiction. And this was before the opiate crisis, you know, I mean, it would— we had it, you know, but nobody was talking about it. Of course. It's sort of like all this racism. It's been there all along, people. Yep. You know? Yep. Now it's recorded everywhere.

Everybody's talking about it. That's right. Yep.

So that character number 3, Lorraine, boy, it just broke people's heart. And for me, it broke my heart every night to tell this story about my mother struggling for her mind. You know, and some of the last words she told me was, "I can't leave you because your dad and your brother are not okay with you being gay, and I have to be here to— I've always protected you." And I had to give her permission. I said, "I'm gonna be okay. I'm strong now." So anyway, that— That it's, it's about family and it's about people. And, you know, the whole theme of Six Characters are these are people that I've met that I haven't— they haven't quite made it into my work yet, so you get them first. Okay.

Do you think your family ever goes, you know, huh, they're cutting them and they're like, don't write that, don't you put that in there?

Oh, my mother used to— I, I used to call my mother just that. Well, how's "Uh, how's Aunt Betty Ruth? And how's Elvie? Is he still in jail?" And my mother would go, "I hear you writing." So I love to write with pencils. I love pencils. I, you know, every— I write all the time with pencils. But I had to start writing with ballpoint pen with my mother so she wouldn't be on it. She couldn't hear it. "I hear you writing." And then so at the end, when she was losing her mind, She confronted me and she said, I feel like you owe me a lot of money because you have used many of my stories.

She's got a point.

You're absolutely right. So I said, I often said it. I mean, I said it in 6 characters. I said, I'm not really a writer. I'm a thief. You're a thief.

You said that in the Aunt Sissy video too. Yeah. Oh, I love that. I love that. I lost my mom 2 years ago. And we didn't have the closest relationship. So now since her death, I feel closer to her than ever. I feel like she's all accepting now. Yeah. But only now.

Yeah. Yeah, I mean, we hope. We hope. We do hope. My mother was really my first ally. She really was. I mean, you know, when I came out to my mom after, you know, 'Cause there was all this speculation, blaming my ex-wife and all of it. I said, look, this is the truth. I wrote him a letter. And my mother calls me and slurring a little bit because the opiates, and it wasn't unusual for her to call really late. I'd just come off of a shoot that night. And she said, well, we got your letter today. I'm like, oh my God. I was like, we talked for 20 minutes and then she just casually dropped that. And she said— I said, are you okay? And she said, oh honey, I've been waiting for this your entire life. Oh! And I'm like, well, why didn't you help me? She said, well, I didn't want you to be that way.

Right. But guess we'll accept it.

And so, you know, she decided that she was going to be the one. She started doing research on my behalf. She started studying the scriptures and the real meaning of scriptures. And I often say, I wish that more people with evangelical, you know, LGBTQ kids, with these parents, that they would actually do research on their behalf, right, rather than against them, trying to find everything to prove that you're wrong, right? You are not valid.

So where do you stand today in terms of your faith?

Uh, I consider myself, uh, agnostic with love, with a lot of love. And caring about humanity. And I hope that I'm proven wrong. I just hope that there's, you know, so far looking at the world today and waking up and seeing some of the things I'm seeing, I just go, oh, I don't know. I don't know. So I feel that most people are agnostic because you don't have proof. We don't know.

We don't know. So what does that conversation look like with your brother who's a preacher?

Those are the subjects we stay away from. Okay, okay. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and he has for many years, my brother, and I would say if he's standing right here, he tried to witness to me and I'm like, mm-hmm, not gonna work. It's, and he, you know, I'm so public. He certainly knows my, he knows how I identify. Right. Seen it on Facebook. He has seen me do videos. I'm sure he knows, but, uh, he doesn't say much about it. Okay, we can just be brothers.

We don't have to talk about that.

I think that, that we both had to stop trying to convince the other one of the condition. And, and here's the deal, my mother not only was the drama teacher, she was the debate coach. So, and my brother was won state at UIL debate when— at state when he was a freshman. Oh, he was good. And he's a great speaker.

I mean, crazy great speaker. Oh, and that's the same guy, the preacher? Yes. Okay. Oh, that's incredible. So now I want to talk about This Side of Crazy. So, and I read, you know, there were some critics who said This Side of Crazy is This Side of Brilliant. It's This Side of Wonderful. It's "This Side of Sensational." And, you know, Shores is a master of offbeat who wouldn't— who couldn't write a boring line of dialogue even if he tried.

How does that make you feel? I know that critic. That's Kathleen Foley. Yeah.

How does it make you feel as a playwright to get such, you know, those words?

Well, here, you know, let's just be truthful about "This Side of Sensational." crazy. There were some reviews up in San Francisco that were not even close to being that great. There were some that weren't. So I wish I didn't listen as much as I do because sometimes they affect you, the negative ones, and you dwell on the negative ones. So I try to, I try to go with Steve Martin's philosophy many years ago, back to The Tonight Show. He came on The Tonight Show with a big stack of newspapers. And he said, Johnny, my movie just opened, Pennies from Heaven, and here are the reviews. And Johnny read, you know, this side of brilliant is a whatever, just like— and then Johnny reaches behind his desk and he pulls up a bunch of other reviews and he goes, well, here are some other ones. And Steve puts his hand on him and he goes, those are the incorrect reviews. Oh, I like that. So I've decided those— look, here's the deal. You have to tell your story. You can't anticipate critics. You, you know, you, you hope that they— that you'll get the good reviews, because if nothing else, it sells tickets, and we need all the help we can get in theater.

So you develop a thick skin and just like overlook these?

I wish I did. I, I, I would be lying to say that I developed a Thick Skin. I still— it hits me very personally, right? Uh, I've been lucky that I've gotten more good reviews than bad in my career. Okay, but if you go to— if you go to Rotten Tomatoes and you look at Sorted Lives, the original movie, it's low. We're not gonna go there. Well, on this side, okay, critics, it's like 34 or something. You go to this side for the audience, it's 87. That's where it counts. And I'm like, I'd rather have the audience. Absolutely.

So you're hoping— is that the show you're hoping for? Because I know— did COVID shut it down, or did it end its run in LA from January 31st to March 2nd?

No, we did— we, we know we, we, um, we were affected by COVID right at the end. Uh, the last couple of weeks were, um, were not sold out, and it was the first time that my place had not been sold out. That, you know, with those kind of reviews. Right. And it was all COVID. I mean, a lot of times people just didn't show up. You know, it was like they bought the tickets and they were just scared because there was such a frightening— Oh, absolutely. I got on a plane the next day to fly to Dallas to start rehearsal the following day with Cassie Garrison, who, you know, did the play in LA, and Andrea Cohen. And Kristen McCullough. And every day was scary. Every day the news starts— started getting worse and worse and worse. And I'm staying with my buddies there, and they've got two little kids, twins, and they, they were worried about me going out and bringing that COVID back home. I was worried, and they had been grounded from their jobs. They were at home working. So I— the day that Dallas said that there you could— I think they started with no more than 50, right? And so theater started going like this, right? Right. And then all of a sudden, no public gatherings after this date. And Emerson and I, there was such frightening things going on in the world, we said, let— we got to close it down. We made a decision, though, because there was no way to open. And then today we just postponed indefinitely.

Oh, because I was gonna ask you about that, because I said you guys were hoping for a July run.

July 17th we were gonna open, but there's no way because here's the, you know, Actors' Equity, even if the states reopen, Actors' Equity has not given any actors permission permission to step back on stage. So, and one of our actors, Sharon Garrison, is a member of Actors' Equity. So, and you know, a very sorted wedding. The stage production is supposed to open August 21st in Dallas. Right. So that's probably not going to happen either. So I guess, you know, it's, you just have to take a deep breath and go, we're going to all get through this. Yes. You know, thankfully my finances aren't like they were in 2009. So I'm blessed, as we said in the church, that I've got food in the refrigerator and I'm not running scared. Right. But I know that a lot of people are, and I know that there's a lot of pain and hurt in this country right now. And I wanted to ask you a question. Do you mind? Oh, not at all. Being in East Texas, What was racism like when you were there as a teacher?

Honestly, I didn't experience a lot of racism because of my color. I felt judged because— and maybe that was my own internal judgment, but I felt judged because, you know, inside I've always been a gay woman. Right. In Texas, not so much. Yeah, you know, we buried that down and it's like, you're crazy.

Yep, yep, yep.

And so I felt not judged by my color, but I felt judged by my demeanor, by my look. It's very athletic looking, right? And so I, yeah, I never really encountered firsthand any racism, you know, as far as color, but I did feel judged in other ways.

So it's almost like homophobia trumped racism. Yes, absolutely, yes. There's a, by the way, there's a line in my movie Sorted Wedding, A Very Sorted Wedding, where Roger, the town sissy beautician, meets Ty and his new husband Kyle. Who's Black, played by Tia Shanti Moselle. And he said, he's like, "Oh Lord, these people are not going to know whether to be racist or homophobic." He just picked one. And Ty goes, "I'm sure they'll be able to do both." You know, it's like, I don't know. No doubt. Like yesterday I read this article, I tweeted about it, another, you know, moment of shit stirring. And there's this mayor, I can't remember where she is, and she was talking about, you know, how this, the Black Lives Matter movement is ridiculous, and that, you know, and started with that All Lives Matter thing. And she, I mean, she just threw the racism right out there as she said, "I am not racist." And I tweeted the story, and I said, you know, I love, the state I grew up in. But when people ask me, why did you leave? And I go, well, it was fine except for the homophobia, bigotry, and racism. And it was there. And I remember it was very much there. The reason I ask you is when I was in Palestine, Texas, I do remember it being pretty strong, you know? Right.

And maybe those were things that they kept at bay. They buried it and said, oh, but we like you. Right. You know, I felt like it was, you know, part of that. What's your show that you're the most proud of?

It would be Sissy's. Sissy's. Other than Baptist Sissy's. Just because I can't even talk about Sissy's and think about Sissy's and the journey of Sissy's without getting emotional. It was such a rich, beautiful time in my life. Sorted Lives: The Movie literally opened and then Sissy's opened shortly after. So I remember having a movie at the Regent on La Brea and a play at the Zephyr down the street. So I would go and watch the play start and then go see how many people showed up at the movie. So it was a real— but Sissy's, just watching, I would go and just watch the audience and watch the tears and watch the laughter and The blend of, like you were saying, the blend of tears and laughter. Yeah. And those letters. So it's one of the main reasons. I mean, Southern Baptist Sisters was really one of the main reasons that we started, Emerson and my friend Stuart Bell and I started the Del Shores Foundation because we wanted to mentor other storytellers and give them a way to tell those stories because so many stories are there. Ready to be told, right, on the paper, but nobody knows what to do with them. So that's been a— in my senior year, now that CNN has said I'm a senior citizen, I mean, oh yes, how dare they. Yeah, they said, oh, the people who are most vulnerable, seniors over 60, and I'm like, whoa, I beg your pardon. Since I'm now in my senior years, I want my senior years to be more giving back, you know. I'm going to create it. I'm going to still write. But yeah, so Southern Baptist Disease is— it will— I don't know that it will— there will be another one that, that can do what it did for my soul.

Right, right. Tell me about what your thoughts on— you said a pivotal moment in your life was the murder of Matthew Shepard. What's your opinion on the advancements that gay rights has made? I mean, legalization of marriage in 2013. I mean, do you think we've advanced in a way, but how many steps have we taken back? What's your opinion on that whole salad bowl?

Well, I mean, I, again, living with hope in my heart. I mean, I love, I'm loving everything behind you, by the way. I keep looking at the work. Word. Thank you. In my play, The Trials and Tribulations of a Trailer Trash-Ass Wife, if you believe, you will achieve. You know, that's right. Embrace. How do you embrace something that doesn't embrace you is a word in Southern Baptist Sissies. The last word of Southern Baptist Sissies is hope. You know, living with hope. So I live with hope constantly. I mean, who would have thought? Who would have thought that in 2016, when we thought it was gonna go state by state, trickle, trickle, trickle, and I used to say in my standup show, I go, you know, I feel like that by, you know, by the time I die, we will have every state except maybe Alabama and Mississippi. But they were forced. So, but now with this administration and with this, the court, the way it's flipped, yeah, I do have a level of concern that there will be steps backward. And yes, there have been steps backward. I mean, look at the trans ban, the military trans ban that Trump did. And there's a lot more, a lot more. So we shall see. We shall see how it all unfolds. I'm just hoping for a big, big blue wave in 2020.

Oh, me too. Me too. Just going door to door. Absolutely. Absolutely. So you are such a go-getter and you're still a very, very young guy. You're going to, you know, let's say you live another 62 years. I remember my mother, my mother was a diabetic and, you know, she lived in Plaquemines Parish, South Louisiana, and a diabetic. And she'd be like, oh, I just checked my sugar. You know, it would be like 500. You know, it was like, that's too much. I was like, what are you eating? She's like, oh, I'm eating a cherry pie. Well, you're not supposed to be eating those things. She's like, I'm not going to live another 80 years. What does it matter?

What does it matter? But you're a diabetic.

So I feel like, you know, here you are, you're going to live another 62 years. What is something even bigger than you've accomplished that you would love to do in the next 62 years of your life that looks completely impossible today?

Um, I would, I wouldn't mind having another big move. I mean, one that I wouldn't mind having a movie that I could write and direct, that I don't have to raise the money for. You know, Daddy's Dying was my first picture, and it was my only studio picture. So I really love not having to raise that money. And I would like to have a nice budget. I would love to do my play Yellow as a movie, a movie, you know, with football stadiums. I would love to have a good series that would last for about 5 to 8 years. That I could be really proud of. I'm developing something right now that there's a lot of enthusiasm for it. For television? Yeah, for TV, yeah. And so I would like to have another shot at TV, and I would— and I'd like to have— I'd like to sit at the Oscars. I wouldn't mind. Oh, I bet.

You know?

I bet, yeah. So there you go.

Wow, that's incredible. Do you set aside writing time every day, or is it just when it hits you?

No, it's got to be a discipline. Right now I've given myself permission during this time because I've got other things going on that I haven't been writing as much as I used to. And I— thanks for reminding me because I do need to get back to that. I've been reading a lot more during this period. My mental health is okay, but I'm an extreme extrovert, so just being cooped up has been really hard for for me, but I set aside the morning hours. I go, if I can write, like I get up, I check my email, I watch it, I give myself like 30 minutes of CNN, and then I turn the world off. I turn the electronics off and pick up this and I start writing. Many times I can't read what I write.

It's a good thing you wrote it, right?

I have horrible handwriting.— but that's where I give myself that time. And I always tell writers, I go, you know, there's not a whole lot of difference between when you feel inspired and when you make yourself do it. Okay. Yeah. So— I love that. What's going on? The protests have started again. Wow. Hear that? I do. I live right by Hollywood Boulevard, just right up in the hills there. Okay. And so a couple of days ago, 100,000 people just below me were marching on Hollywood Boulevard. That's powerful. So yeah, powerful time. So yeah, so that's, that's, that's okay. And then I work out. I go get on that spinning bike. And oh, I love a good spin bike. Oh, we should spin next. We get in the same city, I'll spin with you.

Absolutely. Because in the Peloton app is free. Free right now, so I'm using that for 90 days.

That's what my agent told me. Yeah. I should download that. I've been using FitScope.

Oh, I've never heard of that one.

It's like $9.99 a month. Okay. Good instructors on there.

Yeah, I love the Peloton.

The week it happened, the week I knew, I bought myself a spinning bike because I thought, okay, I got to keep— for me, exercise is not just staying thin and in shape. It is also about staying sane. Absolutely. Absolutely. I need it for my mental health.

Right. I love that. Thank you. So, just one last question. If you had to go back and redo 62 years of your life, would you do it all the same? No. What is something that stands out that you would change?

Well, there are a couple of things. But I think, you know, my second marriage, I don't think I— if I had to— if I knew what I knew now, I wouldn't have married that person. I would not have gotten involved with the person— I had choices to produce. I sold a series. I sold 13 episodes to Logo. It ended up being 12 because of budget. But I sold it before we had a producer. And I— so I had choices. And my gut— told me not to choose the person that my manager was telling me to choose. And I chose this person anyway because I was told to do it, and my gut was right. I would listen to my gut every time, and I would never work with assholes. I, you know, that's the big lesson I've learned is do not work with assholes. Surround yourself by good, right? You know, the Cassie Shea Watsons.

The Cassie Shea Watsons, you gotta love her. Well, thank you so much, Del. I have enjoyed every minute of this.

You know, here's the— let's be honest, I did this for Cassie, and I am so glad I did. I love you. Oh, thank you. I love you. This has been so much fun. It was. It's like, yes. So perfect. We'll, we'll have to regroup sometime. Yes, we will. Absolutely.

And I can't wait to see more of your shows. Okay.

Thank you so much. Thank you for your time, Del.

I appreciate it so much. Bye-bye. All right, guys. Thank you so much for listening. If you want to know more about what I'm up to, head over to traviesteward.com. If you like seeing the videos of the podcast, every episode is on my YouTube channel. And if you like what you hear, please do me a favor and subscribe to the show. And remember, life is about connecting authentically, living with purpose, and having no regrets.