Jess Cohen is Breaking the model of a male-dominated industry

Pretty much then, that was the first time that I heard, you know, women don't work at the professional level. Good luck. I would say just being told that girls aren't going to make it in men's sports was kind of— was a big driver for me. And it has to make you think, is it all worth it? And to get to this level, I just decided that if I'm going to crash and burn, it's not going to be from a lack of effort.

Ladies and gentlemen, today I have a very special guest with me, a friend, a personal friend who I miss in my life. But today You have the pleasure of sitting down— I have the pleasure of sitting down, you have the pleasure of listening to Miss Jess Cohen. Jess is the assistant athletic trainer for the NBA Portland Trail Blazers. Jess, welcome to Reinvent You. How's it going today?

Good, thank you. Thanks for the intro. Thanks for having me.

Absolutely, thanks for being here. So, you know, we're gonna, we're gonna just dive right in. So You know, I do a little research before, before each episode, and I was so stunned and shocked that you are among 3, only 3 female trainers in the NBA, you know. So, you know, tell us a little bit, a little bit about your journey coming from, you know, uh, college, getting your certification. Just tell— and don't go too far into detail, but you know, who, what is it that you do right now? And why do you think there's only 3 of you in the NBA?

Well, I do think I had a little bit of an unconventional path to get here. Most people don't know this, but I wasn't, when I was an undergrad, I went to Vanderbilt, I studied political science and human development. So I was definitely not in the health hard sciences. And I was a swimmer and I spent every day in the training room. I had really bad shoulders and graduated from Vanderbilt and was on track to go live in Kenya for 2 years. But it was in 2010, the economy wasn't doing well. And right before I left, the organization that had hired me said, financially, we're in a hard place, so we would love for you to volunteer, but we can't afford to pay you. And pretty much my mom said, no way, Jose, you're gonna work. So that kind of was off the table. It was the summer of 2010, and too late to start grad school, kind of in a bind. Okay, now what am I gonna do? I was getting ready to leave the country in a month.

Yeah.

And the head athletic trainer at Vanderbilt overheard me talking and said, hey, why don't you stay and do an internship? This fall, if you're gonna maybe take some classes for grad school, you can work in the training room with us. We can teach you a few things and you can be a part of the football training staff. And I said, sure, why not? And Vanderbilt didn't have athletic training, so I mean, I had an athletic trainer, but there was no program, right? So they taught me to tape an ankle, make a good Gatorade concoction, and the next thing I knew, I was a student athletic trainer for Vanderbilt football team. And the rest is kind of history. I kind of changed paths a little bit and decided that professionally I wanted to stay in sports. Sports have always been a very big part of my life, very, I think, very formative in who I became. Any team I was on, I used to go to a summer camp that was a sports-based summer camp. For the entire summer I would go away. And so I was still very passionate about kind of international health policy, was my, my other degree, but I thought, well, I have a degree in political science which was health policy focused, and then a degree in human development. I just thought, okay, well, from a career standpoint, maybe I can be involved in athletics, and then from a hobby service standpoint, that international component I would like to get back— give back in some capacity.

Right.

Kind of redirected my focus and knew that I needed to get a master's in sports medicine. And I, at the time, didn't know too much about it and the programs, but I knew that if I was going to stay in sports— I'm a little biased, but I think the SEC is the best conference in the country. So I wanted to stay in the SEC, and Arkansas was the only school that had this master's program. So I applied there and, and got in. And that is how I kind of started down the path. And then things progressed and developed that kind of led me to understand that I wanted to work basketball. I wanted to work at the highest level possible. And those are things that you kind of learn going through school and getting exposure to different sports and different levels. And so I worked football for a year and women's basketball and kind of came to the conclusion that I liked the size of the team of a basketball I felt like it was a— you have the ability to help influence the players and you can form good relationships with the athletes because there's only 13 to 15 players on a team. And so, and I thought, well, okay, I mean, why not? So I thought— I decided that if I wanted to work at the highest level, I needed to diversify myself as a female. And to become a physical therapist would put me in the best position to be able to do that. So I decided to apply to PT school. I also still kind of have this constant heart tug of children and international health, and, and so I knew that if I went to PT school and at any point in my life athletics wasn't the direction I wanted to go, I could still work with a pediatric population as a physical therapist. And So then applied to PT school, came down to a couple different schools I was deciding between, and I ended up going to Northwestern in Chicago. And really the main reason I picked Northwestern over some of the other schools I looked into was that I knew that if I was in a big market city, there'd be opportunity if I, if I was proactive to volunteer potentially or shadow at, with high-level sports teams.

Mm-hmm.

So before I even left Arkansas, I sent emails, just blind emails to people, a few different sports organizations, and I heard back from the Chicago Sky, which is the WNBA team, and they needed an intern. So, and to have an intern that's already a certified athletic trainer is beneficial to the organization. Normally interns are students, but I was going to be starting PT school, so I was okay doing an internship as an athletic trainer. And just formed a great relationship with that staff and was able to continue to develop my skills. And they were having some turnover in their athletic training department and asked if I was interested in the position. And this was even before I started PT school, but, but I knew if I didn't go to PT school, I would never go. If I deferred, it would never happen. So I said, I want to be as involved as possible, I'll do whatever it takes, but I just can't commit to being the head athletic trainer. So they kind of created this assistant role for me, and I was able to be involved and participate as much as I could while I was in school. And then the day after I graduated PT school, they hired me full-time.

Wow.

So it kind of worked out well.

Yeah, it feels like, like all of your ducks have been lined up since like birth, you know. Like when I hear you say that, even though you were in political, political science, you know, the health route, you were on your way to Kenya. What was that Kenya trip going to be?

So between my junior and senior year of college, I spent about 7, 6 or 7 weeks in a small community outside of Nairobi, Kenya, a couple hundred kilometers away, right, right on the border of Tanzania and Kenya. I was in the Maasai Mara and I was helping build schools. I went with an organization called Free the Children. And there was probably about 24 or 25 of us that went and worked in the community. And Free the Children is an organization that stands to work on a lot of different components of life, whether it's microfinance, health, education, clean water. They're all— that's all components they work towards. And so I thought that at the time that there were people that they needed people to kind of lead those trips. Right. So that was what I was looking to do, and it was a 2-year commitment, and it was really— I was really very much like international public health focused. Did I want to join the Peace Corps? I almost did Teach for America. I was a little bit all over the place. I was assigned— actually, I got assigned rural Arizona for Teach for America, and special ed. And I just think it takes a certain saint to be a special ed teacher.

Yes, I agree.

And I don't— I'm not that saint. So I felt that it would be a disservice if I continued down that path. And it would have been a great experience, but I knew kind of health— I guess the common denominator in both of these paths was just healthy lifestyle. Right. So whether it's sport, high-level sport, or giving children the opportunity to exercise, or, you know, whatever, or providing clean water to people from a health standpoint, it's kind of at the main focus. So when that didn't happen, yeah, I just, I think that a lot of times it comes down to being in the right place at the right time and luck, but I will also admit I'm an overthinker. And so I've kind of got, okay, well, here's plan A, B, and C at all times. So that, that did help, you know, that does help at times, right? Uh, so I love that.

So like when, you know, they come to you and say, hey, you know, you want to volunteer, kind of be an intern with the football team, you're like, I'm in political science, health, you know, this is not— but it felt like you embraced it. And would you say that was actually your true love? Because it's what you're doing right now? Like it was a blessing in disguise?

I think that I— what I have come to know as my true love is a group of people that come together to have one common goal. And you can see that in a lot of different areas, but in sport, the thing that's most amazing in a good organization or on a good team, no matter your role, whether you're the head coach, a player, the last guy on the bench, the equipment manager, the laundry man, everyone ultimately wants wants to win. And when you can bring a good group of people together and everyone is willing to be a team player and complete their role, that's when you see success. And you can apply that to the business world, to a classroom, to a lot of different places. And I think that being a part of a team was always something that I really valued. And people will say, well, you were a swimmer, 'How is that a team sport?' And it's not— maybe not as much of a team sport at times as being on a basketball team, but you still are jumping in the water at 5 in the morning with the same 20 women every day, and you're getting through those workouts together. And there are team— I mean, it is a team sport in how you score the sport. There is an individual component, but I think that the kind of the combination of really caring about my teammates and wanting to do well for my teammates and pushing myself internally. Like, those things that come from that side of an individual sport have kind of put me, um, have been kind of the root of my— where my work ethic has come from since I was little.

I love that. So let's go right there. So, you know, because I feel like you are a high achiever, you know. Where did you— since you were little, so where did that mindset develop, you know? Was it your parents? Was it the environment you were raised in?

So I don't know how familiar you are with different, uh, not necessarily personality— I guess personality tests, but you've probably heard of the Myers-Briggs or the Enneagram or the DiSC.

Yeah.

And there's different kinds of, um, achievement. Even when you study sport, people want to achieve and, and be good because they like— because it's better than being bad. Like they don't want to fail. They put themselves in situations because they don't want to fail, right? Or they want to be the best, and they are considered like results-oriented achievers. They want to be the top. And I think a lot of my desire to be a high achiever comes from not wanting to let other people down, wanting to be proud of what I do. And wanting to be a helper. I'm actually— helper is actually where I fall really high, um, on a lot of those types of exams. And so I don't want to let other people down, and I want to do the best I can, you know, for them. And I think obviously that clearly aligns with being a physical therapist and an athletic trainer. Of course. But then I think also something that's a little unique about me is externally, I'm a helper, but internally I'm very competitive with myself. So when I work in a team environment, I will get really hard on myself, but I'm all about kind of picking everyone else up around me. I was just— I had a serious pickleball session this morning. Another activity preparing me for retirement here in Orlando. And I get so mad at myself, but if my teammate messes up, it doesn't matter to me at all. It's all about it being a good experience. So I think what's unique is how I kind of internally am very different than I am externally.

Got it, got it. So when you were young, like, your parents were like, here, take the DiSC profile? No, you know, here's the Myers-Briggs?

Well, being on a team though, I think that that's something, um, a lot of team-oriented activities you do that. I did a quite a bit in college. Okay. I think, I think some of it is just I have memories. I mean, my parents will say, you know, you were in kindergarten and you got your first sticker on your homework assignment and you just wanted to see how many you could get. And of course my parents will say that I was very self-driven. My parents are very supportive and obviously put a huge emphasis on doing well. Academically, but there— I don't have a memory of them saying, you know, of first of all maybe dragging me to a practice that I didn't want to go to, or them putting pressure on me. If anything, they were— they really kind of— they will say they didn't necessarily need to do that, that I was just very internally driven, but that I was probably harder on myself than they were from a very young age.

Wow. Got it.

I'm not really sure.

Yeah. Internally motivated. That's so cool. Um, you know, there are generally 3 to 5 things in a person's life. I know you're still young, but there's still some pivotal things. Right. So I remember, um, I found out that I really want to inspire and motivate people and help them reach their highest potential because my 5th grade teacher did that for me. And so when I go back and I think about these things that have sort of shaped who I am today, I can come up with like 3 to 4— I'm older, 5 now— very pivotal moments that have shaped who I am today. What would you say are several of your pivotal moments that makes Jess Cohen, Jess Cohen?

Uh, well, I can, I can say hands down the number one most pivotal thing in my life was where I used to go away to summer camp. So I would go northern Ontario, 3 hours north of Toronto, every summer. And it was an international sports camp that focused on swimming. And we just— some of the teammates that I had on my club swim team, one of them just kind of came across this camp. And the first summer we were maybe 11, and we went for 2 weeks. And, you know, from that moment on, for the next 10 years, the only place I, I wanted to be was camp. I mean, I counted down till I could go. I absolutely loved it. It was just the— it's my favorite place in the entire world. And, uh, I just truly believe that a lot of my work ethic, a lot of how to be a good teammate, stems from, from that place. I mean, I think that Of course my parents instilled good values, but you know, when you're 12 and you go away for 8 weeks, your camp counselors are really kind of your superheroes.

Yeah.

As kind of cheesy as that is. And it's people today that I still, you know, look up to and they're all over the world. And just kind of the— that is, I think, where I truly learned to like dig deep and persevere, and you have to give it 100%. Um, and you always have more in the gas tank if you want.

That's incredible. And you learned that at camp?

Yeah. I mean, it was, there was structure. Uh, it was a very structured camp, but that focused around swimming, but you got experience doing all sports. And we even did quite a few canoeing and kayaking competitions. The thing that was so cool about that component of it, it was a bunch of kids that came together from all over the world and they would put us in, it's called a war canoe and it kind of resembles a dragon boat, but instead of sitting and you're up on in a, in this half kneeling position and you have 14 people on the boat and a coxswain and you compete and we would compete against these kids, these kids that train year-round to do this in Canada, and, and we would win. Um, and it just was because I think we were just so, you know, well connected. And they— and we were mostly a lot of swimmers, so you have a lot of strength. But, um, that isn't really about individual strength, because if you don't have everyone's paddle hitting the water at the exact same time, right, then it doesn't matter, you know, how strong people are. But everything from responsibility of having chores, to starting your day with exercise and movement, to being a good teammate, to helping someone do something that they need to accomplish, right? Everything came from, from that summer camp. And I don't even think I can really articulate how impactful it was in my life.

Oh, you're doing just fine. I totally get, you know, the— just how impactful it was. So something you said, you said we were all connected. And then you would be— so was that a mental thing? Like, did you do some kind of mental preparation? What do you expound on? How connected and how did you connect with each other?

Well, I mean, when you live in a cabin with no electricity for 8 weeks, you kind of get to know everyone very well. But I think because all of the activities that you did, you kind of— the emphasis was really you're only as strong as your weakest link. So while they want everyone to push themselves to the limit, and there were, there were activities we did, whether it was a swimming race or a running race where you wanted to do the best you could do and win, there were also a lot of activities oriented around a group of people. I mean, it sounds funny, but we had this activity, it's called Rambo, where literally you can't use the roads. You have to go through the woods without a compass, without anything, and get to this place and pick up a flag and bring it back. And there's swamps out there. There's, you know, you're in the forest. And are there 2 or 3 people on your team that are really good geographically and really in shape and not scared of the woods that could run and get it? Yes. But you have to keep everyone together. So the little— and you're in teams and the campers are anywhere from 7 to 16. So you might have a little 7-year-old that you have to get through, or you might have someone that maybe they sprained their ankle 2 days ago, but you got to get them through. And so just activities like that, or there's a treasure hunt that takes an entire day to accomplish, and everyone has to participate. And some of the tasks, someone might have to run 4 miles to get the ribbon, but, but you have to fit— no one can do 2 tasks in a row. And everyone has to do at least one task. So just different activities like that, which were very, uh, team-oriented. You had to know each other's strengths and weaknesses when you had to— even when you had to get the chores done for the cabin, who was going to do what. And you wanted to win the cleanest cabin award at the end of the year.

Got it. Always competitive. Cleanest cabin. Yeah, I love that. So, you know, of course, you know, you swam competitively for Vanderbilt, you know. I played sports in high school and then played college softball. I never realized the value that a coach could have, honestly, until I started, uh, performance and life coaching. What do you think? I mean, obviously I hear the impact that your camp counselors and your coaches have had on you, but how valuable, even outside of sports, do you think it is to have a mentor, to have a coach that can push you to those levels that you can't take yourself?

I mean, I think it's really important, especially as you're growing up. I mean, I had those camp counselors, I had a high school swim coach that I spent more time with him than I did my parents, just because of the amount of time. He was a teacher at the school and we were swimming all the time. And so, um, I've really valued his opinion and what he said. And coming back to my personality tendencies, I never wanted to let him down, just as I didn't want to let other people down. But I think that in general, typically people are, uh, the society we live in today has become very excuse-driven. And if you find someone that you can trust to hold you accountable and be there to, I don't want to say call you out, but be there maybe to say the things that you don't really want to hear, but you know, if you hear them, it will make you, it will drive you to be better. If you have someone in your life, that's very valuable. Because it's really easy, even from an exercise perspective, like, I'm tired, I don't want to work out today. But if you have someone that's going to meet you, or you have someone that you're working on a goal with, you're much more likely to do that because you don't want to let that person down. Right.

That increases your level of accountability. Yeah. So it goes up to, I think it's 90% chance of accomplishing that goal. It's like really, really high. So cool. So now we know so much more about you at this moment. Share with us what your work that out story is. You know, when is a time that it just seems like everything just lined up so beautifully for you? But surely there were times when you're like, I have no idea how I'm going to get through this. My back is up against the wall. What has been one of the biggest challenges where you worked it out?

Uh, I mean, I will definitely say when I was first getting into athletic training, and I think I mentioned it a little earlier, I was definitely told women don't work at the professional level. And then when I was in PT school, I had someone tell me there's no chance you'll ever get to be in charge of a, of a team as a head athletic trainer if you want to work in the NBA, that you need to go work at the high school level to get experience. And I've really just, um, I think it's a fine line between saying I don't want to say, well, I just got to do what I want to do. I mean, I have respect for what people say, but I just never really felt limited by my gender, and I just didn't let that be a reason to not get exposure. And so I think that while it does— things did line up nicely, I did work pretty hard to, I will say, to get to where I am. And And I definitely made quite a few sacrifices, um, personally, even from a lack of sleep standpoint, um, to get the experience that I wanted to be involved. I mean, I was only one— I was one of 97 students in PT school that continued to work through PT school because I wanted to stay involved in professional sports, right? And so I would say just being told that girls aren't gonna make it in men's sports was kind of pro— was a big driver for me and has to make you think, is it all worth it? And to get to this level, I love my job, but it's a, it's a big sacrifice. I mean, I've been in a bubble for 32 days. I haven't seen friends or family. We're on the road all the time and while they— while the NBA and the teams do a very good job to make it as accommodating as possible, and we have some wonderful luxuries, at the end of the day, you're still getting on an airplane at midnight to fly 3 hours, right, to play the next night somewhere in another city. Or you're on an airplane every day consecutively for 8 days, right? So you have to be willing, you know, to make sacrifices. And, and there have been times in my life where I've I've said, okay, all of the personal sacrifices I'm making, is it, is it worth it for the job?

Right.

And that's just kind of a personal decision that you have to, yeah, to decide. And there's no right or wrong answer. But even if you scale it back and you're not looking at, okay, working at the NBA level, any goal that you want to accomplish comes with sacrifice.

Right.

Decide how badly you want it and what you're willing to give up.

Are there moments where you're like, oh, once a month I sit down and go, do I still love it? Is it still worth it? Am I still willing to give these things up? Do you ever assess and reassess?

Uh, yes. I, I mean, in the last— I think Port— I think Oregon was the— is the 12th state I've lived in, and I graduated PT school in 2016. And I went from Chicago to Connecticut to Atlanta to Portland. I've lived in those 4 different places in 4 years because I was so determined to get, to get to this level. And there are times, a lot of times where I think, is it worth being away from my people in Chicago? My home, my family. I mean, I'm coming up on not seeing my mom for a year. Wow. But some of that is COVID-related, so I will give it a little— it's hard to say, um, give a little bit of a pass because that would not be the circumstances if we weren't in a world pandemic.

Okay.

Um, uh, you do miss out on a lot, right? On a lot of family things, weddings, birthdays, um, just seeing kids, seeing cousins and nieces, nephews, all those things graduate. So very cool. Definitely have to say, you know, is it, is it worth it?

Nice. I'm inspired by something you said a couple of minutes ago. You said you never felt limited as a female. How do you even get to that point to where you don't, you know, especially when, oh, there are not many, you're hearing all this chatter, you know, all these things are telling you, like, were there never any limiting beliefs that played into that? I mean, how were you so strong in that statement?

You know, I think that I just, I just decided that if I'm gonna crash and burn, it's not gonna be from a lack of effort. And if society isn't at a point to accept females in certain roles, then it's not a personal problem for me. And so, but if I can help change that, then like, let's do it. And I will say, the Trailblazer organization and the MBA since I've been here since September, I really have not had one time where I felt uncomfortable because I am a female in the industry that I'm in. And our travel party is normally maybe 50 people and there's maybe 2 girls, maybe 3 girls at times. It just doesn't feel, you know, uncomfortable to me at all. And so I just never addressed that I was a female, I would say. I would say when I was in the WNBA and I knew my goals were to get to the NBA, and I would just email NBA teams about shadowing and observing, just never— I just said, you know, my name is Jessica Cohen, I work in the WNBA, I'm looking to, to kind of just get a little exposure and some experience. Is there any opportunity for me to volunteer for a couple days with you guys? It was fine and I did it and then I got the call from the Trailblazers and there was just never a concern. Now I maintain a high level of professionalism because of course at times you— it takes one female to break down all of the progress all the females have made.

Oh my goodness, yeah, yeah.

You just can't— you just have to be overly cautious, um, because it's, it's a crazy world out, out there. But it's never been an issue, honestly, for me. I've just said, okay, I'm just gonna do this, because I've never thought like, I'm a girl, I can't do that.

Oh, I love that. And I love how self-aware you are with knowing that you have a stake in this and then who comes after you. So now we know that you were an athletic trainer for the WNBA Chicago Sky. And we've heard your story of, you know, getting the job with the Portland Trail Blazers, and we know that you never felt uncomfortable, but what have been some big differences between working with the women compared to working with the men?

I will say, I mean, and everyone will know this from a resource standpoint, we're working with significantly more resources at the NBA level. Unfortunately, WNBA isn't— hasn't quite gotten to the same level of the NBA as far as resources. Now that's probably a whole other discussion in itself as to, as to why, but women's sports are still working to get to the same kind of level that male sports are. But I will, I will say the level of professionalism from the men is, is very surprising. I was very surprised when I got here. They, they work really hard. And I know people see highlights on ESPN and they're always under the microscope with their actions, but collectively as a group, these athletes train really hard year-round to be where they are. And it's not easy. Right. Do what they do day in and day out. And they, the men are very professional, very, very good athletes, and the women are, very good athletes as well too. But I was just surprised that the focus from the most of the men is just almost on a whole nother level. And I'm not sure if that's because the competition is greater or maybe there is more at stake financially. Right. But it's amazing how hard these men work.

Right. So let's delve a little bit into like, what are like a couple of examples of resources that the NBA has that the WNBA didn't have as far as your physical therapy?

Well, I mean, for starters, we have a practice facility. I mean, we have a— most WMEA teams— well, actually, well, not all maybe, but almost every single WMEA team does not have their own building to practice in. If they have their own space, they're still sharing it in some capacity, whether it's with the general population or a men's team. But we have an entire building that's dedicated to our practice facility. And because we have that, we are able to provide significantly more nutritional benefits as far as breakfast, lunch, the right supplements. We have a lot more technology in-game and just in the practice facility with things that we can do to track someone's performance with the movement assessments we do. There's a lot of ways that we can get objective data with how these men are moving and where their discrepancies might be, um, or their asymmetries may be in their body. And we're also able to train them much long year-round, essentially. I mean, they have a break and they— and some of them have the choice to go train, um, maybe from their— in their hometown. But we have the resources then to go check on them where they are, right? Where the women are really only in market for their 4 or 5 months a year, and then Some elect to go play overseas and then some do other things, and you don't have the ability to continue to work on them once the season's over, right? It's a huge disadvantage, right?

Um, I had Pokey Chapman on the show about a month or so ago, and I asked her this question that I want to ask you as well. What do you think it's going to take? Well, first of all, do you think there ever will be some equality as far as in the pay and the resources that you're talking about right now between the WNBA and the NBA? And what do you think it's going to take in order to get it a little more equal?

You know, unfortunately, it's a business, and from a business standpoint, there is not the same profit margin that you see on the women's side than the men's side, you know. And also, unfortunately, you have a lot of general population that likes to believe that maybe there's more skill in the men's game, or they're more fun to watch, they're more dynamic, which, which that might be your personal preference because you can watch dunk after dunk, but there are really impressive things that go on in the women's game. And absolutely, um, it is going to take a change in mindset from the general population. These men here are incredibly supportive of the WNBA. They think that it is great basketball. They love to watch the women play. They They are super interested in how the WNBA is doing, and they like to watch the games. When they have the opportunity to go to the games, they will. So the respect is 100% there from the professional athlete.

Okay.

Where there's a lack of respect is from the general population. And you have Joe Schmo sitting on the couch with his bag of Cheetos thinking that he can beat Elena Deladon one-on-one when he would get waxed and just not respecting their, their skill set. Everyone has the choice to like what they want to like or, or not like it, but there's a lack of respect for what they're doing. And I think that until general population people can respect the game, then we have a big problem. Nice.

So we've heard some little snippets about what it's like, but tell me, walk me through like a day in the life of the bubble, because everybody's curious. You know, we see some things on the news and stuff, but it's like, he's in the bubble, he's talking from the bubble. So from the inside, what's it like being in the bubble?

Well, I will say the NBA has done a wonderful job to make this as good of an experience for us as, as they can. It's It's really difficult to ask a group of people to leave their families and be isolated in a space for X amount of time. Right. And so from a medical and health safety standpoint, they've done a phenomenal job. I mean, I feel like I'm in the safest place in the world.

Wow, nice.

And even though we are— we continuously wear masks and get tested, I mean, We're not— we can, even with all the negative tests, we're continuing to wear masks, socially distance. The league has provided things to help everyone remember to do those things. And so it's incredible. It feels incredibly safe, which is great. And then they've tried to provide a different activity. I mean, there's— it sounds cheesy, but if you want to go downstairs and play cornhole right now, you can play cornhole. We joke about the activities that we've chosen to do. I mean, like I said, I've become a very avid pickleball player. So my morning routine usually involves some stiff pickleball competition. They've provided activities for people to participate in if they would like to. And I know at times it could— media can say certain things about how, oh, they're just spoiled, but But if you ask anyone to stay in one space for that long, right, and not have anything for them, not a deck of cards, nothing, that would not be enjoyable for anyone. And these players have made big sacrifices leaving their families and coming here. And this is not— it's not normal for anyone to be told you can't, you know, you can't go out to eat tonight, or you can't, you can't get together with a friend. And so I think all the players, all the coaches have really been great sports and everyone's kind of just embraced the situation. And it gives you the opportunity to spend time with your coworkers in a socially distanced, safe space.

Yeah.

I'm at a hotel with 5 other teams and there's 3 other— there's 2 other hotels. So there's 3 properties that kind of make up the bubble, and there's almost like mini bubble within the bubble because there's transportation that is provided between our hotel and the other hotels, but you can't walk there, you can't drive there, they're not right next to each other. Right, okay. So you can go fishing, I've done some fishing, you can play golf, you could do— there's tennis, there's, uh, you can swim, so The MBA has done a great job.

Right, so you have most of the things that you need, you're just missing your family and friends and the flexibility of doing everything that you want.

Yes, we have everything that we need. The food's provided and there are restaurant options that are, have been, that are considered safe restaurants to order from. Right. And restaurants within the hotels that you can go to with social distancing rules on where you sit when you eat. But we're not deprived of any need that we have. We just don't have our friends and family with us.

Yeah. Has being in the bubble— you said what, how many, 32 days?

This is, I think, yeah, about day 32.

Okay. Has it affected you mentally at all? You know, some people, you know, there have been some, some actors you know, some stars who are like, oh my goodness, like Michelle Obama said COVID-19, you know, she experienced some depression. Have you experienced anything mentally from being in the bubble?

You know, I joke, but it's probably true. I think summer camp thoroughly prepared me for this experience. I have been fortunate enough to not have any mental health concerns. However, every day we before you leave your hotel room, you have to do a pulse oximeter, a temperature check, a symptoms check, and then they ask you, do you feel— do you think you may have been around anyone that had COVID in the last 24 hours? And would you like someone, a mental health professional, to reach out to you? And so every day on your survey, you have the option to select yes, and it's confidential information, and the MBA will, will provide those resources. So Like I said, I'm fortunate enough to have not had any mental health issues or concerns, but it's definitely a challenging thing. And if you're a type of person that really leans into your support system and they're not here, it's very— a real possibility that you may struggle. Or if something that typically brings you joy you can't do because you're in the bubble, It's very likely that you may be experiencing a difficult time, and the NBA and sports in general are making a big push to emphasize that mental health is not a sign of weakness, and it's something that everyone struggles with, and it's okay, and you can be as private or public as you would like to be about it, but you should not be ashamed of of wanting any kind of help.

Of course, right. So as you sit there, you know, day 32, surely there are things that you're like, oh, I can't wait to get back to such and such, you know. What are things that feed your soul outside of being competitive, outside of basketball? What do you really, really love and look forward to getting back to?

I love to travel, and so it's very bizarre to think about I don't know the next time I'm gonna get to go and see somewhere new. That's really kind of interesting. I mean, because I've lived all over the country, my core people are kind of all spread out. And so the idea of not getting to go see them, that's definitely— I mean, I look forward to the day that there's some normalcy in that again. I was really hoping to have a nice trip to maybe on the other side of the pond to go over to Europe this summer before COVID happened. But I'm not— I mean, while it's disappointing, I understand that I'm very fortunate that I have a job, I'm employed, and that I'm healthy. Absolutely. So I cannot complain about, oh, I can't go on my trip this weekend with the state of my life. Right, right, right. So, you know, I definitely look forward though to getting a chance to go home and see my family.

Yeah, nice.

So, and it was a quick turnaround from the WNBA season to the NBA season. So I definitely look forward to some downtime.

Nice. So how old are you? You're 31?

I just turned 32.

32. Okay. Does that make you feel old when you say it? I see you. I see the look on your face. It's like, oh, I'm 32. You're still but a baby. And look at the strides you've made. So if you If you look back over your life, 32 years of it, is there any one single thing that you absolutely regret? You know, because a lot of people are like, you know, if you regret it, if, you know, you can, you can recover from it. You can let it define you or you can use it to propel you to be stronger. You know, is there anything like that for you?

Um, you know, I wouldn't say regret. I at times think about what if I had taken this path. The path that I took to get here was very kind of long roundabout because I went from this political science mindset to having to go back to school, master's degree, doctorate degree. And so I've had moments where I thought I should maybe— should I have just gone to med school? I was in school that long. But I You know, I do believe that everything, all of your experiences are formative and you can, you choose to learn from them or you can just bottle up any anger that you may have and it just doesn't do anyone any good to be mad about a circumstance that you can't necessarily control.

Yep.

So I don't think there's anything, I mean, everything happens for a reason, I guess, as cliché as it may sound. So I wouldn't— I don't— I can't say like, oh, I would definitely change this.

Yeah, it took me a long time to get to that point. You're so wise, my goodness. You know, just like some of your answers, it does sound like, you know, you really are 92 instead of 32.

I mean, you're so—

you're so wise, and, you know, it inspires me. So if you could lay out everything perfectly, you got a nice little wand, you know, where do you see yourself in 10 years according according to your plan?

Well, you know, that's a great question because I've been in such this transitional state for so long because I've thought, okay, I'm going to do whatever it takes to get to the NBA level. And then I took this job and I kind of said to myself, okay, this is a big move. I moved from Atlanta to Portland. You can't really make too much bigger of a cross-country move.

Right.

And I kind of said, okay, so I have a 2-year contract plus an option of a 3rd-year extension. I really need to take this experience and say, kind of like what we talked about before, the MBA has been my driving force, my driving— I'm gonna— this is what I'm gonna do. But is it really what I want to do? And now this is gonna— this experience is gonna tell me. I'm gonna take these 2 or 3 years and I've got to figure out, like, is this it? Am I an MBA lifer? Do I have what it takes?

Okay.

And I really struggle with the idea of, let's say in a year from now, I've done 2 years in the NBA and I've said, you know what, I did it, but this isn't what fuels me anymore. This isn't what makes me happy. What are people going to think if I'm not in the NBA anymore? Are they going to think that I failed? Um, because I'm not in it and I don't, I don't like that thought. No, I need to not care what other people think. But I really said that I was going to use this. I have to do what's right for me, and I love my job, and it is a— it has been a wonderful experience, but at some point you have to say, okay, how much do you value your job over maybe the family sacrifices that you have to make? And right now, you know, I'm in it and I love it, but there may be a time where I really want to have children one day. And if I'm going to have kids, is that what is my job in the NBA best for raising children?

Got it.

Now, so I made this statement to myself that when I, I'm going to do this experience, I'm going to get through my first contract and I need to be honest with myself and evaluate what's best for me, my family, and not what people think. And then COVID happened. So as far as getting a true experience of what kind of an annual cycle looks like in the NBA, I would, would say I still have not experienced that because we are in the longest season in the history of NBA season. Yes. It is going to be a full year almost. It's going to be over a year from the time training camp started in the fall. Wow. And so now of course I've learned a lot about the job and the profession and the profession within just the MBA, but it, it hasn't been a true example of, okay, this is probably what your life will look like on a calendar year, right? If you did this forever. So I'm still in the phase of, okay, one day I want to be a director of all things medical on an MBA team. I think that that's still the ultimate goal. Yeah. But, but I say that with the asterisk of I just have to decide if if the MBA lifestyle is what is best for not only me but all the people that I care about.

So nice, thank you for sharing that. So speaking of the people that you care about, the possibility of, you know, starting a family— when you think of where this country is today and, you know, thinking of starting a family and the legacy that you'll leave and, you know, the things that we're all living through right now, you know, there's people who want to move to Canada, people who want to move to France, they just want to get out of here, you know. What is something that you think if we all just really put forth that collective effort that could make this country better?

Well, I mean, that's a pretty loaded question.

I know it is.

I know. Um, but you know, I will say that it doesn't need to be that complicated of an answer. Like if you put people in this world that are that are good humans that only want to make other people around them and the world around them better, we would be in a, in a much better place. I think one of the founding principles of America is, you know, work hard, you have all these opportunity, but that has kind of morphed into this like selfish perspective and it's not, unfortunately it's not always about you, you know, I mean, right, I think that as a society we do not necessarily believe in picking people up, and that's really unfortunate. And if I had children, you know, the number one thing that I want them to know is that all people are created equal and you are here to make the world and all the people in it better.

Oh, that's beautiful. Wow. So, Jess, thank you so much for having this very insightful conversation with me. So just to finish up, you know, what is an impossible dream, like totally impossible? Is it being, you know, the full director? I think it's— I think maybe impossible is even bigger than that. What would be your impossible dream above that?

I would say, so I've kind of given this new— I've had this like new idea kind of come into my head a little bit since I've been in the bubble. It's very raw, so I don't— might stumble over this a little bit, but I would say like the— my big dreams that I don't necessarily think are impossible would be: 1, a director; 2, I would love the opportunity to work with USA Basketball; and 3, having a, having a family. But those are, I hope, are all obtainable. But this kind of new idea that I've wanted to come up with is somehow, um, so it was a hard decision for me to leave the WNBA because I I truly care about women's basketball. I think it's a, it's a great sport. I think that women's athletics needs good medical professionals in it to take care of them. And so I didn't want it to be like, I'm moving on to bigger and better because I don't want men's sports to be bigger and better than women's sports. Unfortunately, with the growth of— for my professional growth, that is, that is kind of the direction that I needed to go to continue to get better. But I've kind of come up with this idea that I want to somehow— I would like the WNBA athletic trainers and medical professionals to be able to collaborate with the NBA medical professionals. And so whether it's kind of like a mentorship program or a way basically where the WNBA medical professionals maybe even coaches, they can collaborate with the, the women and the men's sides can work together in some capacity. So figuring out kind of how, how to do that is something that kind of just thought recently, thought about, and would like to see if it's something that could, could ever exist. Yeah. So the WNBA has 12 teams in it, and some of those teams are affiliated with the, with their local NBA team and some are not. There's probably maybe 4 or 5 that, that are affiliated, but there's, there's not a lot of crossover. And I think that if that's like my contribution in helping the NBA, the WNBA getting closer to being treated equal to the NBA, I would like to be able to do that to create equality in like the medical care side of things.

Got it.

So helping the WNBA athletic trainers, not necessarily that they need to, to get better, but provide them— when, when it's— when you're in the WNBA, it's— you're by yourself, it's you and your team. And so provide them, you know, assistance or snippets of information or resources. I think if we can do that on the medical side, that does increase— it does make the equality a a little bit better.

Yeah.

Close the gap a little bit.

Okay. That's incredible. Absolutely incredible. So yeah, you definitely have spent some time thinking about that. So just one final question. When people hear this interview, this episode, they're going to want to hang out with you. They're going to want to follow you. What is your preferred method of contact? How would you like people to contact you if they wanted to?

Uh, probably email is best. I mean, I do have social media, handles, but I check my email quite a few times a day. And like I said, my 90-year-old soul is probably not as, not as cool on the Gram as some people. So I use it, but yeah, not cool. So definitely email's best.

Okay. Yeah, that is so— because most young people are like, What? Who even uses email anymore? Like, I use email, but here you are. So email is best. So cool. Jess, thank you so much for this conversation. I have loved catching up with you, and thank you for giving us like a little peek into your life in the bubble.

No problem. Thanks for having me.

Absolutely. So if you like what you're hearing and perhaps you're interested in having a complimentary conversation with with me. Click the link at the bottom of the show notes. Thank you so much for listening. If you even want to know more about what I'm up to, head over to traviestewart.com. And if you like seeing the videos of the podcast, every episode is on my YouTube channel. Take care, guys.