In this episode of the Work That Out podcast, host Travia Steward interviews former WNBA player, coach, and general manager Pokey Chapman. The conversation covers Chapman's journey from a high‑school star in Louisiana to a record‑setting point guard at LSU, her transition into coaching at the collegiate, professional, and international levels, and her recent experiences navigating the COVID‑19 pandemic. They discuss the financial disparities between women's and men's sports, the pressures of being a Black female leader, and the importance of community, family, and faith. Chapman shares personal anecdotes about her first 3‑point shot, her time coaching in Russia, the challenges of being pulled over by police, and her health experiments. The dialogue also touches on social justice issues, reactions to public figures like Drew Brees, and Chapman's vision for the next 50 years, including health, travel, giving back to her hometown, and potential media work. Throughout, both speakers emphasize mindset, resilience, and the value of authentic connections.
Chapters
You're listening to episode number 10. Thank you so much for joining us today. My goal with these conversations is to explore different types of people and their successes as well as their failures in navigating and mapping out their lives so that you too may have more insight in what it takes to build the life that you envision for yourself. I believe if you take action each day, the life that you want can be closer than you think.
Welcome to Work That Out, guys.
Your guide to connecting authentically, living with purpose, and having no regrets. This is the show that gives you real stories and real examples of people working it out and creating the life that they want. My guest today is the former head coach and general manager of the WNBA Indiana Fever and Chicago Sky. She played at Louisiana State University where she set all sorts of records for steals, and assists. She was a Kodak All-American point guard. Afterwards, she worked her way up from student assistant to assistant coach, and eventually, as head coach, she led the Lady Tigers to 3 consecutive NCAA Final Fours in 2004, 2005, and 2006. She also coached in Moscow, Russia, where she led the Spartak to 3 championships. And this is a great episode to link with my guest because her number The jersey that she wore as a player is number 10. Ladies and gentlemen, my guest today is Pokey Chapman. All right, Pokey Chapman, thank you so much for joining me on the Work That Out podcast. You know, it's such a strange time in 2020 right now. This has been quite the year, right? Where are you today? Like, are you, you know, you're a homegirl, so you're from Louisiana. Get us caught up on like where you are right now.
Right now, right now I'm in New Orleans, and like the rest of the world, dealing what has been thrown in our face because we're all home dealing with this pandemic that we've forgotten about. But you know, I'm a Louisiana girl, I'm a New Orleans girl, so I'm in the middle of all of that that's going on. But I'm also a sports fanatic, a basketball coach, and there's so many things that are coming at us in these, uh, I don't want to call them strange times, I'm going to call them unique times. Unique, I like that. But, uh, just trying to get ready for what's next. And the good thing about it, Trey, is that, you know, we played sports, so we're used to adjusting to things, right? I always like to think that we're a little bit ahead of the game, we'll be ready to make that move when it's time to go.
Absolutely. Cool, very cool. So You know, a lot of people can Google a lot of details about you. So when I was doing a little bit of my research, you know, you always find these things and you're like, I didn't know that. I thought it was so interesting that I didn't know that you are credited for making the first 3-point shot in a basketball game. That is so cool.
Tell me a little bit about that.
Was that when you were at Honville?
No, I actually, I actually forgot about that, but someone was doing my bio and they put it in there and it was, I was going into It was a Louisiana high school all-star game and they had just implemented the 3-point line.
Yeah.
It was in that high school all-star game where I made that shot. Now, I'm glad— look, look, there's not a lot of video, so I try to tell people I was a really, really good 3-point shooter, but I was just average at basketball.
But that's okay. You're like the queen right now, so—
Exactly.
Very cool. Very cool. How do you think this pandemic and COVID— I know the WNBA season was totally canceled, postponed, canceled. You know, they're not going to pick it up and go play at Disney World like the men. How do you think it has affected and impacted the season this year?
Well, I'll tell you this, um, the WNBA put out a statement that they were looking at a proposal to actually continue a 22-game season in Bradenton, Florida. Now the men were going to start towards the end of July, and it's really in its preliminary stages. Uh, you know, I'm an optimist, but it's really, really hard to wrap my arms around that to think it's going to happen. And it's one of those things, look, you like to talk real, you like to work it out.
I do.
Let's get real, the WNBA plays in that window and it's not the top priority right now.
Right.
It's the fight, you know, that's been going on forever. But there's preliminary things out there. But I think this pandemic has forced certain players to make this shift, that pivot, think about things that we as coaches and teachers and parents I've always tried to tell them about what's next, right? What are you doing with your money and other skill set? Because, uh, that, that aha moment of desperation and where my next paycheck is coming from really hits hard. And, uh, I think that can be the silver lining if those players are equipped to handle it and in a good manner.
I love that. So, so you mentioned money, you know, and are you being smart with your money? Let's talk about the discrepancies between the NBA their pay level as well as the WNBA, you know, even women's soccer. We know, you know, Megan Rapinoe and, you know, Carly Lord, all those people are fighting. Do you think there will ever come a time where it's actually equal pay for all female sports compared to the men?
Not in my lifetime. But listen, I understand this, uh, the women aren't asking for the same amount of money as the men. That's number one. I'm talking about women's basketball, and I haven't followed the soccer fight, uh, as close enough, uh, to really know the details of that, although I do know that they deserve a lot more money and they're a lot more successful than people give them credit for. But the women want, um, they understand the TV contracts and where we are on the sports landscape and all those things that come into it, but, uh, it just needs to continue at a rapid pace. And these players don't have to chase the dollar across the pond and playing in, you know, Russia and Italy, uh, and putting off other aspects of their life. Because people don't think about that, you know. I think about Swin Cash. I had the pleasure of— I traded for Swin Cash to be a mentor for Elena Delle Donne. Swin is a really smart, savvy championship player. And I remember Swin, you know, had her life planned, you know, when she's going to get married, when she's going to retire, have a kid. And people don't think about the adjustments that they make, uh, because they're trying to make this money in a small amount of time playing two seasons of basketball. So I think it's going to improve, but, uh, it won't get to the men's in my lifetime, but I think it's moving in the right direction.
Very cool, very cool. So you were born and raised in AMA, which is AMA, you know. And so, you know, we've, we've gone through AMA a little bit, you know, like, oh, we're already out.
Exactly.
We've already passed through AMA. It was about 12 seconds, you know. So, you know, one thing that I focus on a lot is mindset. And so how could you develop, how did you develop such an optimistic, confident mindset from a small town? I'm playing for Hornville High School. You know what, did you know in those days that you would be coach for the Chicago Sky, coach for Indiana Fever, coach for the team in Russia, you know, You were like, you had the record for all assists until Tamika Johnson broke it, you know, LSU ladies too, you know, what is it, 4, 4, 3, 3 out of 4, that's what I'm talking about. So did you have the mindset like when you were a little girl growing up, "I'm doing this," you know, some guys are like, "I'm going to the NFL, baby," and they do. What was your mindset?
No, the mindset wasn't focused on that because it didn't exist. You know, the WNBA, right? The mindset was focusing on what's in front of me to get with— to get to what was next. And let me explain that. It's one of those things how, you know, we read all these books about it takes a village. Yeah, well, I, I live in that village of AMA that raised this child, literally. So I didn't have to read about it. I didn't have to listen to someone speak about it. I was that person. And I'll get real candid with you, you know, it's one of those things where all neighborhoods aren't the best. There's always somebody maybe smoking their marijuana, drinking too much, doing things they're not supposed to be doing. But Pokey was the protected one, right? You know, they saw a skill set that could take this little girl somewhere. And I think once I started playing AAU basketball and Hornsville became better, I realized I can get an education. Because look, I wasn't going to be able to go to LSU without a basketball scholarship. So right then, the vision— then the vision came, uh, what was next because those doors opened.
Okay, yeah, because LSU is expensive. It is, you know. And then I remember when I was in high school, I had no concept as to just how expensive, how I would get there, you know. And I just think, man, you know, I just had my 50th birthday in February, so we're the same age.
Yeah, yeah.
And so it's like, holy— you know, if I knew then what I know now You know, you know, a lot of people are like, oh, I have no regrets, I would do it all the same way. I would change some things, you know. I would have been much more educated about how to get scholarships. You know, I played college softball, but I had one scholarship coming out of high school was because— I think it was because my sister was the president of the club. And, and then I went on a half, uh, softball scholarship, so it was three-quarter based on that, you know, work study and all, right? But I just went, God, I was just so uneducated as to I could have taken better advantage of it. And just, you know, so surrounding yourself with that village, you know, knowing that you had to get your school paid for and that people had your best interest in mind. One thing that I absolutely love about you, and I just, it inspires me because I don't do such a good job of it. You know, I know you lost your pastor. During the COVID And I just think, you know, on one level, here you are right here, you know, you're in the WNBA, you're on TV, you're doing these things. But on another level, you're right here, you're in the community. How important is it for you to come home and just be Pokey? You know, not Pokey the WNBA coach, not Pokey the, you know, how important is that? Because on so many levels, you're so in there.
You know, Trey, um, it's all I know. Um, if it were missing, then I would struggle, right? Um, and, and that's all I know. And so it kind of— I'm listening to you say all these things, and yes, I've been fortunate in 3 decades of coaching to go around the world, coach the best players, but it feels good to come home and know those people that I went to kindergarten class with that tease me just like Pokey, right? They don't even know if we won the last game or not, you know, like, yeah, you might be a good coach, but you're not all that. Uh, and it's not that I needed to be grounded. Sometimes it's a welcome reminder, uh, when you're in this world where, you know, adulation is thrown on you for all the wrong reasons. So it was always a grounding, safe space for me just to continue to be.
Oh, I love that. I love that. Because sometimes what I find that's even difficult for me is, you know, once you, you move, you grow up, you move on, you move out of the state, out of the city, and you're no longer hanging around with those same friends. So you, you know, you have different interests now. The commonalities are not the same as it used to be. So even I, like, when I go home, I find it difficult. Like, I remember when my mom was still here, she'd be like, "Tray, you gonna go up the road and see so-and-so and see so-and-so?" And then I was like, No, no, I'm good. I'm good, you know, because it's like, well, what are we going to talk about? We're going to be there for about the first 5 minutes is cool, you know, but because we don't have any common interests, right, where does it go after that, you know? So I, I applaud that in you, that you go home and you, you know, you are right back in it, because I know that you're very, very close to your family. I'm not as close with my immediate family as you are, so I know that that's important. What role does your family— like, I know your sister is like, that's your best friend. I mean, I think she takes the role of a personal assistant, everything, you know. What would life be like if she wasn't like your ace, your number one? I mean, just, she just takes— I know she takes care of so much stuff.
She does. Yeah. Wow. I can't even think about it without her, you know. But then I think about her teacher was my mom. And they took on these roles in the household. I was speaking to someone yesterday and I said, well, you know, the first head coach in my life was my mother. She was head coach of the household.
Yeah.
You know, my sister became the co-head coach because my mom worked 3 jobs and post office in the morning. Court house in the afternoon, Sports Country, Kathy's Plant Shop Store in the evening. My mother worked for them.
Wow.
Okay. Yeah, crazy, right? So my sister's world, she became head of the household, you know, and that's taking care of the house and the bills. And to this day, she's an extremely good cook. But here's the thing about my sister, uh, so many people call her their best friend, and it's because I say she's a Libra and she's fair, uh, she listens well. But at the end of the day, she'll tell you about yourself. She may put her hand on her back and rub you, but she'll be like, look, what's she telling you? I love you, but you're wrong. I love you, but you're wrong. And I'm like, I'm going to caress you while I tell you. Exactly. I love you, but you're wrong. And it's that part. But then the next part is like, I don't want to minimize the business stuff that she handles for me. Bought houses, sold houses, started the whole— I was in Russia buying and selling a house because of her, right? You know, I joke, I joke about this because I have a house in Metairie and someone said, oh, your pool looks so nice. And I said, meet my pool girl. Listen, I'm straight, come on now. For the last 10 years, this woman takes care of a pool, right? You know, and I'm thinking to myself, so I say that to show the range of her, and she always has time for everyone. So So everyone's like, oh, Pokey's the coach, but I strive every day to be like Dee. My sister's amazing, and I hope you never hear any of this. I am not blasting this out.
Keep it a secret.
Yeah, for sure.
Oh, that's so cool. So I wanna— I know you're in New Orleans. One of the big things that's happening is we all love Drew Brees.
Right.
Drew Brees has been my fantasy football quarterback. I mean, they won that Super Bowl in 2009. We all love Drew Brees, right? What do you think about— like, I don't want to taint your opinion, just tell me, how are you feeling? What's your interpretation of what's happening with Drew Brees on how he responded to that question, and where do you think he stands, and how do you feel about him? Triple layered.
Wow. Yeah, yeah, triple, triple layer. I'll start with, uh, what I know the most about Drew and what he's done for the city, documented. Um, you can't fake that, you know. I've been in the same building as part of charitable, uh, events with Drew. Can't fake that, that's real. Um, and, and what I'm not liking about what's going on right now is people are trying to blur those lines.
Right.
Okay, no one said Drew was a racist. Okay, so I'll just cut to it. Let me establish that. Love that about Drew. I thought it was extremely tone deaf of Drew. Tommy was just awful. And he can respect the flag, but my disappointment was not making any mention of the injustices that are happening that all started in his league, right? You know, and I'm not that person that wants to condemn, you know, look, you know, they say Black folks, we stay in the church and we like, we forgive really fast, right? That's what they say. But the thing is, I say that to make light of a moment that people are losing their mind, and I get it. But the silver lining for me was I thought to myself, and I told someone, I said, damn, if Drew don't get it, we got a long way to go. A long way to go, right? Right, right. So it doesn't excuse anything because you gave millions of dollars you won a championship, you just are part of the privileged group. Right. And that's where we are. So I, you know, and everyone wants to decipher and tear apart the first PR scripted apology and all that good stuff, but I'm not here for that. I hope it's a teachable moment and there's some actionable steps by Drew and his following that can shift the narrative to what it's really about.
I love that. You know, I've been accused from friends, family members of not being Black enough.
Oh wow.
Yeah, and so that, you know, I guess, I mean, I can only surmise what it means. I can only guess, you know, but I'm, you know, I'm not Black enough. You know, I remember when my sister was still here and she asked, Travia, how many HBCUs— it's HBCU, right? Yeah, historically Black college and university. How many can you name? I think I can name 4. Well, Shelley can name like 15, you know, like almost all of them. And she goes, mm, you know, she's more Black than you are. And I was like, well, what does that mean? I just don't run in those circles, you know.
Right.
So there's been a little bit of pressure that I have felt that I need to be careful that I say the right things, you know, I need to make sure that I'm on the right side of the line, you know. So do you feel any of that pressure? I mean, you have a voice and I know you have used your voice, but do you feel any added pressure that, look, Pogi, you gotta be, you gotta be dead on it, you gotta go with these folks and you can't be with these folks and you can't straddle the line?
You know, Trey, uh, in matters like this, it's so easy to go with what's in your heart, right? Uh, I, you know, I may write certain things or post certain things, but it's always from the humanity standpoint, right? Hardly ever the political partisan standpoint. And, you know, I don't knock people who vote their wallet. We all need money, but Some things are so clear to me about what's right and what's wrong from an understanding standpoint. So I have felt pressure to shrink myself in situations where it wasn't acceptable for so long. And I'm that Black female coach and running a WNBA team. So that weight and that pressure was fatiguing. And so I hadn't felt the pressure that you felt because it just seems so natural. And I'll say this though, I'm not knocking people who aren't comfortable being where I am. You know, I want them there. Like someone said, we don't need white friends, we need some white allies. I said, true, I get that. I said, you know, I said, but everyone's not comfortable standing up and doing what we expect them to do. So I don't knock that, but I want to understand that just like we want people to understand that. So it's not about pressure, it's about presentation so people can keep their eyes and ears open and I can move them forward to a better understanding.
Okay. Okay. That makes sense. Um, I was having a conversation just the other day and we were talking about how you feel when you're driving in your car, especially when you're by yourself and you see those lights come on behind you, right? Immediately. There's never been a time where I was relaxing, go, oh yeah, you know, generally I'm speeding, but there have been times when I wasn't speeding, you know, like I'm, I'm like, you know, coming from the airport one time and one, and I got stopped and it was because I didn't have my headlights on because it was, you know, it was dusk. Every single time there is such an elevated level of fear, you know, do you still experience that? And I say still, I don't mean to say still, do you experience that type of fear, even though some people would say, "Poki's got a little privilege, you know, she's probably recognized." Would you say you still experience that level of fear?
I do, uh, and not to, uh, make it more dramatic, not that it needs to be any more dramatic, uh, I feel the shortness of breath, I feel myself getting I feel myself double-checking, making sure, oh, did I switch over my insurance papers? All those things, you know, there's this Rolodex of things. And I would lie, I would be lying if I didn't tell you that certain horrible things that run through my mind. And this is interesting because just in March, early March, I was taking a trip to Florida and with a friend of mine and she's white and I got pulled over. And like, I didn't know why, you know, so we get pulled over and long story short, I was going 74 in a 70, right? You got pulled over for that? And I said, 74? And I said, well, what did I do? Well, you changed lanes really fast, so we weren't really sure. That's some bullshit. You know, but here's the kicker though, you mentioned the word privilege. I think athletes are feeling a little, they're feeling strong in their voice to stand up and do things because we recognize we do have a little bit of privilege. By the time that encounter finished, the young lady that was with me was an All-American volleyball player at LSU when I played, in the Hall of Fame. She's telling one officer that, and I'm an All-American point guard at LSU, you know what I'm saying?
Right, right.
We're talking about their daughters. Here's what I know. I got lucky, right? I wasn't recognized when I got pulled over. Maybe I wouldn't have been recognized if she didn't have the conversation with cop number 2. And I'm not dramatizing, but like all this stuff that's going on is making me think about that. And she's like, I can't believe they pulled you over because, you know, you changed lanes. She said, it's probably because you're driving a nice car. And I went, really? Really? Like crazy.
In 2020. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I totally get that. Um, I saw on your, your Facebook— well, I think it was on Instagram as well— so you, you posted, um, we're Black ladies, we build, we don't tear down other Black ladies. We have felt the pain of being torn down and we decided we will, we will be deliberate about building others. Where does that message hit you the deepest and the hardest? Why are you so passionate about that?
You know, it's about that intersectionality part, you know, you're Black, you're women, it's the double struggle of things, and it's a double struggle, but so often you're competing for so few spots, and that's how it keeps you off course, and I think a lot of young women, especially Black women, they're more aware of what's going on and how we're stronger together, Really? And I just thought it was just a small thing to show the solidarity. And look, posting something is so easy, but I'm fortunate enough to have people that live it. And I have a friend, and I don't want to mention— well, I'll mention her name. It's actually my pastor's wife, Sabrina. I would always call her, she was my angel. I said, you're just an angel because you don't always feel women, or Black women, just really being so positive and complimentary about people. She would just walk up to you and say, oh my God, you're so pretty, oh look, and she will hug and kiss you. And I was like, I need to be more like that, right? I just always remember that. And so it hits me there because, uh, you get this energy, it's that teamwork, that energy when you have like-minded people, you know, right, doing positive stuff.
Yeah, yeah, I totally get that. So I want to transition back a little bit to the WNBA and I remember as I was a high school teacher for 24 years and I had students who were in my classroom who then became teachers with me, who student taught with me, became teachers. And one of my friends who is a friend now is a principal. So if I worked at that school, she would be my boss, you know. Comparing that to the people that you've coached in the WNBA and, and, and even at, you know, on the collegiate level, how do you maintain and make that transition of, oh, you know, so-and-so is my boss now, or so-and-so is, you know, because that's, that's so hard, especially once you've coached them.
You know, I think it's a lot easier because I went the, you know, from LSU to Europe to the pros. You know, you have that time because you're like, look, when you're in college you think that's the only world that exists, right? You don't realize everything else that's out there. And then when you get to the next level and it's, and it's the— it's their livelihood, right? Players aren't afraid to open up and be who they are because they're trying to pay their bills, right? And so you see them differently. You see the possibilities that they may run a Fortune 500 company one day. Natalie Otonwa, you know, Notre Dame graduate who I just recently coached, you start seeing all those areas of them that didn't exist in other venues. And so it's actually not that hard. But what you think about is, everything is about communication, but you build this trust when these players are working for their livelihood. They trust your line of talk, you trust their line of talk. So it's unique, but it's also, you kinda wanna, you feel proud when those players who come through reach the top. And if they need to reach back and grab me, I'm all about that.
I heard that.
I'm with it. No problem with it.
Yeah, I like that. I used to be one, and you know, I've done a lot of work on a lot of, uh, professional and personal development on myself, and I used to be one who would just be envious, who would be jealous, and I'd be like, well, why'd he get that? Why I can't get that?
You know, I don't believe that. I can't believe that about you internally.
Yeah, I mean, I would— these were thoughts that I didn't share, but there were sometimes I would look and go I want that too. Yeah. I mean, there was a lot of envy, you know? And so then, you know, you realize and you do the work and you know, what are my strengths? Well, you know, here are my strengths. I'm going to go where my strengths are. So this podcast is called Work That Out because I think in life everybody has a work that out story, like where they're pushed up against the wall, they're in a corner. You don't see the light at the end of the tunnel. Tell me an example of something where you just didn't, you weren't sure how it was going to work out, but you worked it out.
Yeah. You know, I resigned from LSU in March 2007. Yeah. March 2007. I figured I won't do anything for a year and you're trying to figure out, you know, you're trying to recover from that, you know, emotionally you're thinking, financially, you're thinking spiritually, the whole, every, every aspect of it. And I remember I had a little place out on False River. You know, we'd get in the boat, we would fish off the pier, just relaxing. And, uh, I got a phone call from Simone Augustus, and I had nothing, nothing planned. I had no idea it was going to happen. Simone Augustus called and she says, Coach, Tina Thompson wants your phone number. Is it okay if I give it to her? I said, sure. So fast forward, long short, Tina Thompson calls me and says, the team that I'm playing for in Russia is looking for an American assistant coach. And then boom, July, I'm working in Russia, I'm learning a new language, I'm seeing the world, I'm coaching the best in the world.
Right.
And look, that just has to be God's grace because what is it, Kansas? You know, the timing of that. And it worked out. But the next part of it was, Trey, when I got in that environment, what I had to work out was what was going to be next. And, you know, as an American, you go to Europe, go to Russia, and we just kind of, I don't know, we don't embrace their culture. And I remember telling the ownership of the team, I said, I don't want a translator. I want to learn the language. Probably the single most important thing that I did because it felt warm to them and they welcomed me. And to this day, that organization still takes care of me. So it worked out, but I had to step out on some things and be really uncomfortable and try to communicate to my driver in Russian and navigate 15 million people, you know.
Wow, that's incredible. And so are you pretty fluent?
Oh wow, I'm probably rusty now. I could talk, I could understand more than I can talk, but I mean, I would talk to my players and tell them, you know, Zdravstvuyte, Greece. Tomorrow practice at 10:30. Oh, that's impressive. Listen, if you put yourself in survival mode, I did not watch Netflix, I did not watch any movies, I just immersed myself in the culture. I went to the Bashor Theater, you know, I flew to Israel and went in the Dead Sea, just all of that stuff. That was probably the most growth of my adult life coming at a time where people thought I was ready to jump off a bridge. It was incredible. It was incredible.
Because you always knew the next thing was waiting, right?
Well, it had to be. That's the only option, right? I didn't know what it was. Yeah, it had to be. And if it, if it wasn't waiting, you have to go find it or you have to create it. Right. And, you know, I just had to trust. I mean, look, I'm not working right now. I don't have a job lined up right now. You know, my shift, or it hasn't changed because of COVID I've been unemployed since September. You know, everyone else is heightened because of COVID but you understand it and you have to trust the good work, energy, expertise, and relationships you put out in the universe and continue working and growing that and see what's going to be next.
I love that you said that, you know, the good things that you put out into the universe. How do you blend? Cause I know you're Christian. I know you're very spiritual. How do you blend the two? You know, because it took me a long time to go, like, I remember my mom used to be like, you playing with the devil with all that kind of stuff, you know, with that, you know, it's Jesus and Jesus, God.
And that's it.
You know, but I mean, I meditate, you know, I do these things to where it feels like, like when I was younger, you know, we'd go down to the French Quarter and my mom would be like, you know, quit playing with that devil stuff. You know, ain't nothing but the devil. You know, You know, and so, so now when I think of, you know, throwing it out there to the universe, I'm putting it out there, you know, I think they go hand in hand with my prayers. You know, what's your perspective on that?
You know, and let me be clear, you know, I was saved a few years ago and was baptized again in my church in AMA. Um, and some of that comes from You know, we always talk about, you know, you don't have to always go to church, be the church, and I fall short every day. I'm just thankful that in a time when we're so busy and I've gotten older, I've found time and a place to be in the church because that energizes me.
Yeah.
But that's actually the easy part of it. But the spiritual part has become a lot easier because the people that I've surrounded myself you know, you've always had this sense of faith. You've had it too. It just may have looked differently, you know. It may not be— it's just not reciting passages. And I will tell you this, I used to meditate, meditate so much my staff would get mad at me. True story, before a playoff game, I made them turn the lights off, lay on the floor for a minute before the game started. And I said, if you tell anybody about this, you're done. But since I've gotten more involved in a church, I've meditated less. I don't think that's a good thing. You know, I was just telling a friend of mine, I need to get back to my Calm app, you know, she's kind of lonely. I hadn't talked to her enough, but, uh, I think any aspect of that is good if it works for you and brings clarity. Right. Um, I'm all about it. I'm just lucky I've found Jesus Christ.
Oh, that's, that's incredible. Yeah. I love that. Um, you know, I grew up in the New Orleans area, so I grew up in the Catholic church. And so I have realized that, you know, then I lived in Texas for 14 years and there weren't the kind of Catholic churches that you have in Louisiana in Texas, you know, with the gospel choir and stuff. And so then I went to like some Pentecostal churches, then I went to non-denominational, then you come to Arizona and it's just, it's just completely different. You know, there's no sight of those types of choirs. And so now I've found— and I have allowed myself to be terrorizable. It's true. You know, when you said earlier that, you know, I went to Israel, I went to East— and my first thought was, I hope you didn't go by yourself. I hope you took people with you. And you— and clearly you were safe because here you sit, you know. But that was my first— that was my first thought. And so now I've gotten to a point to where I'm like, I'm so terrorized. Well, I haven't been to a movie theater in years.
Really?
It's true. Yeah. Yeah. Because I went through, you know, I, I developed this level of anxiety after— for my sister who passed in 2015, she was my second mother and then my mom. So it's like, you know, once you get to an age, we all get to an age to where we start losing more people. We're both older. So you start losing more people. And so then I got— I was going through this is like, well, I need to put myself in the best situation. I need to not go here where people could come in with an AK, you know, rifle and shoot up the place. And so I convinced myself that, you know, I need to get to church here at home. So I would watch Joel Osteen, you know, every morning I get up and I pray, you know, I pray, I meditate, I pray in the shower, in the tub, whatever that is always first, you know. And so I've gotten to a place of where I feel like I know it's good to go and be with other people, right? But I'm okay with being here in the church, you know, mentally and spiritually.
Right. I think that's great. You know, for— because of my career being 5,000 miles away in Russia, I've always had to do that. So I like being in the church. I like, you know, messing up the songs that everybody's singing. I like that. I like that. Feeling, right, when I'm able to do it. But I get that, you know, I get exactly what you're saying. And if that works for you, then it's great. You know, I hate that, you know, you feel terrorized and don't want to go out. I haven't gotten there yet. Look, I live on Frenchman Street in New Orleans, so I go out my door, I make a right, and in 9 minutes I'm on Frenchman Street. I'm in the French Quarter. And so my mom, My mom said, you've been all over the world, you just love this damn city, huh? I said, I do. And like, you know, you talk about other places. I can remember sitting in Plaza Mayor, um, sitting and we're in Spain and we're drinking some sangria and I'm looking at the buildings and I'm like, damn, that's New Orleans, you know? All right. And you realize, not that you don't know, but when you can feel it and see elsewhere, I'm like, well, I'm going back home. I'm going back home for the food, the music, right? Right. You know, I like a little drink every now and again.
Yeah, yeah. Because that's incredible. Because that's what, you know, and I always say, you know, I love the people, I miss my family, but I really miss the food. Mainly that crawfish.
Oh my god, the meal.
Mainly that crawfish. Yep, yep, yep.
That's my favorite.
I know, I know. So, you know, I would be remiss if we didn't really delve deep into really what's happening in our country right now. So I love this quote by Michelle Obama. She said, "The presidency doesn't change who you are, it reveals who you are." How do you think that statement is true with all the things that are taking place right now, especially with social injustice, with inequality?
It's golden. It's everything. It's prophetic. It's probably what we all knew. Now we can spew it on this stage. Yeah, it is at a maximum. Like, I am— I'm sitting here listening and watching, like, is this real life? Yeah. Like, I remember one day I was so exhausted and so mentally tired that I just I remember opening a bottle of wine, I didn't even want to drink it, you know, and I love grapes now, let me qualify that.
You're having your fruit.
Yes, and it's one of those things where at every level, you know, with people that are— people you worked with, people you went to school with, people that you run with, friends, it's having to explain things that you thought was understood, right? And then, and then, you know, just because everyone changing the narrative and the whole nine, it has been extremely daunting, but I remain positive. And, um, you know, it's one of those things where exhausted but still in pursuit. I mean, we're in pursuit of getting this thing right, right?
So, you know, again, turning 50 just does something to you. It really does, because Most of it, like, I've had really good friends who— well, who I thought were really, really good friends. And then, because there comes a point, right? We all have our personal values. We all have the things that we believe in. But sometimes when you hang out with, with people who your values don't align, you can overlook those things for a certain amount of time until the elephant appears in the room bigger than ever. You know, and so I realized, you know, the presidency doesn't change who you are. It reveals who you are. The society, the administration, where we are in 2020 has revealed some things and some very, very close friends that, like, I, you know, it's made me change who I am, you know. And so I now speak up a whole lot more where I would have just let it go. You know, I would have just, you know, like, like I was— shit, the other day, the other day on Facebook, uh, one of, uh, one of my friends from Luling posted something like it was a big old, you know, like a big old white pickup truck with, with mud flaps. It was, you know, it was a meme. And then the, the statement read, oh, didn't— oh, oh, and from the mud flaps and on the white truck was splattered blood. And then it read, "Didn't see any protesters," right? I never say things I did in that moment. And I said, "What the eff?" You know, and I said, you know, "Are you the kind of person that would actually post this and think it's okay? Then I don't know you at all." And then she responded and then she immediately took it down and then she started texting me, you know. But I never would have spoken up before about that, right? You know, I would have just gone to let me just hide them, and I'm just not gonna go, you know, we're gonna unfriend, whatever. But yeah, but it's something about where we are today that I just— some things are just not acceptable.
No, I agree, and I applaud you for that. Huh, that's pretty, you know, that's so prevalent. And yeah, and to think that you're comfortable enough to post that. Right. Wow. You know, then there's the subtleties, you know, the people, you know, send you the text message, I love you, Pokey, what can I do?
Do you?
That part. And I don't knock that, but like there's different categories of it. Like if you really have to ask, then you don't get it. Yeah. You really don't get it. So it's been frustrating for me as well. Uh, I haven't really unfriended anyone. Uh, I've just changed, uh, my energy focus.
Okay.
Uh, it's one of those things where, okay, that percentage is going to be, they can't detract. I gotta have laser focus on what's in front of me. What's important now. That's the acronym WIN. What's important now. Right. Uh, so I just try to, you know, look at it that way, but it's fatiguing, man.
It is, it is. And you got— and you have to take a break. You got to take a break. You got to go pour that glass of wine. You got to go and be one with whatever, you know, just so that— or it'll be all-consuming.
It is, it is. And I'll say this, you know, I thought I was going to take a break today and I had my TV on and I didn't realize that something now, uh, I can't even think— Javier young man in Austin, there's a tape now of a young man in Austin a year ago that died at the hands of the police, that just came up. Now there's something in Shreveport, Louisiana. All I did was go to sleep and I woke up.
And here it is.
Yes, so it's one of those things where, like, I'm not trying to hide from it, but it's hitting, and I'm just hopeful and curious and praying that we will continue with this momentum And I get distracted. Me too, because, uh, some stuff needs to change.
Yeah. Let's see, you got a magic wand and you could change some of those things. What is it? What would be your first order of business? You could change one thing, but you had all the power to change this one big thing. What is that thing?
Oh my God, don't do this to me.
I know, right?
Oh Lord, Lord, Lord. I would change the leadership at the stop. Okay. So then somebody's going, no, poking policies and Obama, they're going to send me all this stuff. I know people who have— look, trust me, I know. Here's why I say that, because, you know, we're in some crazy times and we have people that do seminars, they write books, they make a living off of leadership. It's everything, right? Right. But in this moment, why it's crazy, it's nothing. So we've just thrown that quality, that quality of leadership— I'm not— some type of leadership, you know, I would say that because that would, I think, galvanize a group of people that have been oppressed. It would get the attention. I think it would put qualified people— I'm not saying Republican or Democrat— qualified people in that seat. To manage the monster times we're going through. That's all, right? You know, don't talk to me about the Dow. I know I checked it, you know, the money did good, right? Right. What about that? You know, it's not about that. I'll start there. Um, I get another one? No, I'll just say I'll stick with one. Okay, I will start there.
Well, the second one would be, what do you think we could all do individually? Like, you know, because that's a big thing. Like, what, you know, like for instance, something that I think I could do a better job of is My brother, I have some friends who don't vote. I for one need to do a better job of convincing them that their voice is needed. It's important that my brother can leave the fish bank. He doesn't need to catch redfish every moment of the day. He can go vote, then go fishing.
Right, right.
So what would you say, like maybe something that you could do individually to, you know, Get the word out, do something.
Yeah, that's a great place to start, and I like that that's a place that everyone likes to go. Yeah. And doesn't matter if it's just the two people in your family, you know, you just keep multiplying that, and that compound effect of it is amazing. And for me, it's just the educational piece, just exposing people to things, our history, and how it lines up with the history that we're taught, right? And the history that we don't want to repeat, and the history that we're making right now. And it's just from an understanding standpoint, I'm okay with people having their own opinions and thoughts, but have the facts on the table, right? Have all the facts laid out, then hey, you do you, it's all there. But it's just that, you know, keep them keep them dumb and pregnant, do whatever you want, you know, that mentality. Barefoot and pregnant. Yeah, yeah, yeah, barefoot and pregnant, that's the one, barefoot and pregnant. I say keep them ignorant and pregnant, you know, they don't know, just keep it going. And it's just like, it's educational piece, you know, and so I think what happens is it seems so daunting that no one wants to take it on, but I think we can all make little strides, you know, because this generation after us, man, they've got some juice, right?
Yes, they do.
They got some juice. I'm not talking about just the influencers, right? Talking about that little educated crew that really wants to make a difference. I'm like, hell, they inspire me. I know, lady, I'm the old lady, but they inspire me.
That's true. I totally get that because, you know, just— I mean, I was still just in the classroom 3 months ago, and I'm still inspired by the students who are so bold and so brazen, you know. I learn from them every single day, you know. So Poky, on just a personal level, I know what I think about you. What do you think your natural gifts and strengths are as a person? Why do you think people love you?
I try to be a good listener. Mm-hmm. And it doesn't matter if you play for me or you related to me or Mr. Cecil, he's a gentleman. He's a vet that has an amputated leg that I sometimes will push around here in New Orleans. I try to listen, just from the standpoint of that, I mean, that's important. I remember how I felt when people listened to me. I try to be a good listener and obviously a good communicator, but, and then I'm easy. I don't judge, you know, I try to be a safe space for people regardless, you know, people, You know, it's funny because, uh, people like, I hope you don't get nobody's business. You know, I listen, I love on you. You know, if you ask for my advice, I'll try to counsel. But other than that, I mean, uh, I just try to be a good listener and then be consistent with people.
Yeah.
Uh, even when I was 5,000 miles away, I got on Facebook because that was the best way to keep in touch with people when I was in Russia. Now I'm, I'm, I've gotten better at it, but when I first got on, I just, I accepted everybody. And then Facebook said, you got 5,000 friends. I said, no, I don't. I said, no, I don't.
Who knows 5,000 people by name?
I know, I had no idea, but it was nice keeping up with people and that was important to me because I'm the one that was 5,000 miles away. But after 6 years of being there, people couldn't remember that I was 8 or 9 hours ahead. I was the one still getting up at 4 in the morning, you know, so I just tried to be that consistent presence in people's lives. And I think it has mattered over the years.
Nice. I love that. Yeah. I used to, um, you know, because you've heard— have you heard the quote that you're the average of the 5 people that you spend the most time with?
Yeah.
And so I, you know, again, during all of this work, trying to maintain consistency with, you know, just, you know, because I'm a very positive person, I'm very optimistic, and I just think anybody can do anything. I can find potential in, you know, that mouse over there. You know, we— I can get you there, you know.
I know.
Yeah. And so, so yeah, so I love that. And I love that you surround yourself with people that uplift you, you know. I think that's so important. So as you have now ventured past the big 5-0, if you were gonna live another 50 years, what does that 50 years look like? You know, because I remember my mom would be like, You know, my mom was a diabetic. She had that sugar.
And then she would be like—
and you know, she'd call you on the phone, she'd be smacking in your ear. And I'd be like, what are you eating? She goes, I'm eating an apple pie. And I was like, now you know you're not— your sugar's going to be 500. You know you're not supposed to be eating an apple pie. She was like, eh, she's like, I'm not going to live another 80 years, so what does it matter? So we ended up with— she was right. She lived another 5 years. So there you go. So she ate what she wanted. So you're going to be 100. You got 50 more years. What does that 50 years look like?
It's funny you said this because a few years ago someone was frustrated. A friend of mine was frustrated about something with their parents and she said, half my life is over with and I'm still trying to live for them or something like that, you know. And, uh, and that statement, half my life is over with, resonated with me. And then I remember thinking, he work out our asses off, right? So then we retire and we're too old, fat, and decrepit to do anything, right? You know, your hips hurt, your knees, you know, the whole— and so I started really focusing on my health. Now I'm not the healthiest, but I don't take any pills or anything. But I went, I went vegan for 2 years, straight vegan.
Really?
And listen, Trey, it was crazy. I don't know if it was because I just wanted to do something I could control. I woke up February 3rd, 2018, and I was in Indiana and I just did it. And back then I didn't know jack, right? And it wasn't about vanity or looking, it was about a feel. Uh, I don't sleep well the whole night. So anyway, you know, I did that for 2 straight years and then February 3rd I started having, I'll eat shrimp or tuna. I don't buy it at home, but I'll eat it. And when I tell you, I started feeling better. Like my energy, skin, hair, nails growing, just a little energy. And I didn't want to say it to anybody, they're like, yeah, right, you just trying to get in that two-piece. I'm like, no, it's not about that.
That would be good too, but—
Yeah, no, look, I wear a four-piece. My two-piece with a t-shirt and some basketball shorts.
Yes, that's what I'm talking about. My kind of swimsuit.
Exactly. But like, it started with the health part. Component, because if you live and you retire and you do well with your money, then you don't feel like doing anything. So it's about energy and educating myself with things outside of my craft that I can enjoy. You know, I love music. I mean, I'm not— I love wine.
Yeah.
You know, I can see me, you know, going to wine country and spending some time, but that, you know, requires a certain amount of health. So I sort of focus on my health and people that I could spend time with when I'm older, because your patience is short when you're older, you know. So it's just different, you know. Everybody not for you when you get old.
I can only take Dewayne for 30 minutes.
Exactly, exactly. But, uh, you know, that was my mindset about focusing on my health, because as you mentioned before, you know, to tie in the COVID how it disproportionately affected us, you know, all the underlying factors and the why behind all of that, but that's kind of top of mind as well. So mainly my mental and physical health. Wow.
Okay. Okay. So, but so you're, you would be focused on your health, but what is the big thing that you want to do?
The big thing that I want to do?
Yeah. Like I'm talking action. Yeah. Yeah. So you're healthy as a horse, you know, and you still have another 50 You're just going to be just focusing on your health? What are the actions?
What are the activities? Outcomes? I want to go to Tuscany for a month.
Okay.
I'm going to Tuscany for a month. I want to ride up and down wine country. You love that wine. I do. I love the experience of it. Yeah, I do. That's part of it. And for me, like, I've always been away, so I didn't really get to enjoy my family truly. It was always in passing.
Okay.
It was always a drive-by. Um, part of that is I want some family time and I got a lot of family in California. I want to have the time to do the people I miss the most, whatever that looks like. If they look, I've never been on a cruise, never been on a cruise in my life.
Me either.
Damn it. It really— oh God. Thank you.
No, we, we, yeah, no, but, but I don't want to, too much water. We just want to fly there and get there. Like I just, I'm a little claustrophobic, and so it's like if I just see water, right?
Okay, you do have a little bit of an issue there.
I do, I do. Got a little anxiety, I do. So we just like to, you know, we go to St. Lucia, we fly there. We're not going to go on the boat. I mean, we'll go on an excursion for a couple hours, but that's it, right? But that's okay.
Yeah, no, no, but just those type things. And you know, I have a Harley-Davidson that I don't really get to ride a whole lot. You know, I had to— I would have to trailer it to Tennessee, but to have the time, the energy, you know, and the wits about me to ride that bike cross-country, that would be nice at my pace. Okay, I want a little happy camper. I want my happy camper, you know, and I want to fix it up and I want to be able to go play. So it's that, because we're always so fast and we're missing things, and I want to slow down and enjoy, you know, the people that I'm close to that I care about, the things that I like to do at a pace that's comfortable, you know, that makes it lasting.
Yeah, you got me thinking about that. Thank you for sharing that. You got me thinking about that vegan. So what— how did you get your protein during that time?
You did tofu? That was it. Yeah, yeah, he did tofu, and that was it, you know, and then seitan. There's some other ones, you know, tofu and some seitan.
But you felt so good.
I did, and like, you think about it, when I was doing it, when I would travel, you know, in New York, everything, so many options, LA, so many options, so many places have great options to get some, you know, some vegan food that, I mean, hell, someone, I gave somebody some Beyond Sausage the other morning, they had no idea, they had no idea that it wasn't real meat, but yeah, you know, and that was more of a discipline thing, but the only other thing, Trey, and I'm gonna switch about, you know, the next 50 years, I really want to give back to my community. And I'm talking about my hometown, that Eima, St. Charles Parish, that community that raised me. And I literally was just on the phone with someone this morning about what that looks like. And I don't want to take 50 years. I hope it can be in the next 5 to 7 years. And obviously letting basketball be the vehicle that drives it, but some of my relationships, uh, you know, the sports component, the teaching component, a place to gather, uh, but in that space because there's nothing like it that exists. So that's something else that's on my radar.
Okay, that sounds good. What do you— do you think you have any plans to be in the broadcast booth?
Oh, I don't know, uh, I wouldn't mind. I, I, I never— I thought about in the last couple of years Uh-huh. You know, my agent mentioned it and I was like, I don't know, I may not be polished enough for him.
Oh, I think you'd be just fine.
You think so?
Absolutely, absolutely.
I appreciate that, you know, and if the opportunity presented itself, I would definitely look into it. You know, I got some coaching left in me, but I do see that as something that I would definitely welcome, you know, if the opportunity presented itself, for sure.
Perfect, perfect. I've enjoyed spending this time with you. Thank you so much. One last thing, I know that, you know, we can Google your name. Where is your preferred method of people who want to get in touch with you, who want to contact you?
Yes, officialpokichapman.com. Okay. That's the spot. It's actually— we just took it down and under construction right now, but probably by the end of the week, that would be the place that will house everything.
Okay.
You know how sometimes people will steal your domain and then want to sell it back to you for a million dollars? Yes, yes!
Happened to me, but, but yeah, yeah, you got to stay on top of that. I'm 3 years paid now.
Exactly, exactly. But that's one spot. But then, you know, if people would follow me, I'm just Pokey Chapman on social media, Twitter, Instagram, yeah, Facebook. I guess I still have room for friends.
Always room, right?
But no, this has been great. Thank you so much. You just make me smile, my face is hurting.
I've enjoyed this so much. Thank you for, you know, time is something that none of us can ever get back, and so spending this hour with you has been absolutely priceless. So thank you for giving me your time. You know, I always enjoy— we don't get to spend enough time together when we're both in the city, so we should, we should make that a better priority, you know, because we have too much fun when we hang out.
We do. And I'm thinking about the last time you were here. Yeah, we had a good time. And last time I was in Arizona. So we have to make that happen with the new normal.
Yes, yes, sounds good. All right, thank you so much, Poki. Okay, you too.
Okay.
All right, guys, thank you so much for listening. If you want to know more about what I'm up to, head over to TraviaSteward.com. If you like seeing the videos of the podcast, every episode is on my YouTube channel. And if you like what you hear, please do me a favor and subscribe to the show. And remember, life is about connecting authentically, living with purpose, and having no regrets.
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