Faith, Purpose & Revelation | Judaism's Approach to Becoming Rich
A recorded conversation between host Matan Hazanov and Rabbi Josh Keller exploring Keller's path from social entrepreneurship and law into full-time Jewish learning and leadership. Topics include the transformative role of Shabbos, arguments for Judaism's historic validity (national revelation), practical spiritual tools (journaling, prayer, power-phrases), and Olami Toronto's mission and operations to empower Jews aged ~18–32. The discussion mixes biography, theology, and actionable advice for entrepreneurs and leaders.
Chapters
Today I have a very special guest.
Rabbi Josh Kaller, one of the great sages, was asked, teach me the entire Torah on one foot. And this was what he said. You should love your friend like you love yourself.
Are you in love with yourself? Yes.
Are you? Why has Judaism been around for 3,336 years? Like, what is it that's kept this thing going?
People believe in the flat earth conspiracy theories. So I think the capacity for human beings to believe in things contrary to evidence is very, very high.
Flat Earth theorists or require no personal skin in the game.
How do you know that it's real?
No. When we think about blockchain technology, it's the perfect metaphor.
Was there like a. A trigger or point where you realize, like, hey, this is the way I want to live life?
Shabbos saved my life. That was a transformational experience for me. And I'm like, wow, I didn't know this was Judaism. I wish they would have told me this earlier.
Do you believe people are fundamentally good or bad?
I'm trying to build a business. It's very hard to raise money. Like, what do I do?
Building anything worthwhile. It's always a struggle. Like, how does someone stay positive? Like, when they're facing rejection and failure? Constantly.
The first thing that needs to be calibrated is your room.
Rabbi Keller, thank you for joining us.
Thank you for having me over here. Excited.
I'd never received my conspiracy Jewish conspiracy check.
Yeah, it's in the mail.
Okay, so maybe just walk us through kind of your background. How did you get into being a rabbi? Why? As opposed to just going and making money?
That's a great question.
Doing something more productive, like making money.
So I think I'm in the world of true productivity, but so is everyone. I think everyone has a different calling and mission. My background is diverse, meaning I came with an undergraduate degree in English and linguistics and teaching English as a Second Language and classics, and was like, what are you going to do with that? And then eventually I ended up becoming more of a social entrepreneur. And I started, during that time, an undergraduate, a volunteer organization called Student World Assembly. It was part of, like, a national operation, and we were basically given the license to, like, do good. So I actually built, in that time when I was at University of Florida, a educational social entrepreneurship program where I went into a place of transitional housing. So people who are living transitional homes, maybe for months, maybe for years.
These are homeless people. Basically.
They were once homeless, and now they live in these transitional housing, which means helping them get on their feet. And I decided to create an educational program to help them get their GED and then transition them into university or college for free.
So GED is like a high school diploma, right?
Yeah. In the states where I'm from, the GED is like your general educational diploma. So if you don't get a high school degree, you can get your GED and then you can apply for college, university. That's how it works in the states. So I said like, let's help these people get an education. I really believed in education tremendously and that that was my first instance of like social entrepreneurship. So I got an entire robust team of volunteers from the community members, including students. The students were able to get volunteer credits. The members were getting feel good experiences and the recipients were receiving free education that can help them grow. And like that was. We had successfully one graduate from the program.
Wow.
But that person's life is transformed. He ended up enrolling into Santa Fe Community College in Florida and ended up enrolling in H Vac and getting a career.
Right.
And moving on. And I felt like it was worth it just for one person. And I feel like that mindset is in capturing Judaism. Bishop LEON the world's made for me, not an egotistical way, but that there's a sense of responsibility. And I felt like by even doing that one program for one student, that was worth it. And I feel like that's the underwriting philosophy to so much. So now I graduated, I actually wind up getting my master's degree and joining and getting my law degree as well at American University in D.C. and then when I was there, I was also doing more social entrepreneurship experiences helping really social entrepreneurs grow. There was one program I was a part of that really was there to help create an accelerator program for entrepreneurs. At the same time I also developed my own non profit for Jews called Gather the Jews with a few of my friends. And we ended up just like building and building and building and building. So we were just, I'm just like involved in just like seeing and trying to help individuals like grow and become their ultimate best.
So you're, you started to become a lawyer?
Yeah. So did you ever practice? I did, I did practice. I'm still a bar attorney. I'm still barred in the state of Florida, not practicing right now, but I'm still barred in Florida and I still help my family in commercial dealings that they have in South Florida. So I, I'm definitely still have my legal mind at work at times. And I worked right afterwards working as my own practitioner for Calor Esquire Incorporated. And then until I ended up deciding that I had more that I wanted to do. And one of the main ambitions that I had was learning more about my Judaism. I went to a day school all my life. And then when I was like 18 or 19, I really had, like, a transformational experience. I felt like I really want to learn more. And that vein of learning more carried through with me all the way through undergraduate to graduate school and beyond. And that's why after graduate school, after a year of working, I said, you know what? I really want to double click and deep dive in my religion and understand why has Judaism been around for 3,336 years? Like, what is it that's kept this thing going? And even though I was already, like, trying to keep Shabbos and trying to keep kosher, I had my own things that I was still learning about. And it was a journey for me. And then at the age of 27 and a half, I enrolled in Yeshiva, which is a full time learning experience where you double down and understand what Judaism's about. And that was a transformational experience for me. And I'm like, wow, I didn't know this was Judaism. I wish they would have told me this earlier. And it really brought me to a new energy, a new mindset of how I really thought I wanted to contribute to the world.
That's fascinating. So you didn't grow up religious?
No, I go traditional.
Traditional. Okay, traditional. You know, most people, there's a kind of a meme or a canard that people that become religious is because they're going through struggles and struggles in life and they want to, like, they need something to anchor them, you know, in this difficult and uncertain world. You know, was that your experience as well? Like, why did you. Why did you feel that you needed, you know, religion?
You know, I didn't come through that portal in a lot of ways. A lot of my sense of Judaism came from a sense of, like, seeing optimization, seeing the opportunity to grow. I mean, I'm not gonna lie, there was one moment in patch of my life that that was a struggle point, but that was a minority. When I look at really the totality of what has brought me closer to Judaism, it was really the sense of realizing, like, this is a gold medalist guiding system towards personal actualization and soul actualization. And I realized it was something that, you know, I've been to, you know, undergraduate graduate school, and I've spent a lot of time learning. And I realized, like, this is an educational system, like, nothing like you've ever seen before. And even learning Gemara, learning Talmud and seeing, like, whoa. Like, what they can pack in. It's just a few lines of. Gemara is like 20 pages of legal tech text.
Right, right. Fascinating. Because a lot of people on Twitter, they learn Gemara very quickly and then they post their findings, you know, so that's very interesting. And usually it's interesting stuff they post on there, so. Well, you mentioned probably takes a lot longer than an afternoon to learn.
It's. I mean, I've been learning Gemara full time for 13 years now. And, you know, it's a continued exercise of patience, diligence, thoughtfulness, and. And also realizing there's a context. Right. So oftentimes when people are learning Gemara, you look at one piece, but that's like, imagine like, taking this podcast and only showing 5 seconds of it before it's controversial piece. But wait a second. What was said before, what was said afterwards, and when you look at the context, oftentimes context resolves so many things, which is where we. And today we don't have time for context.
Was there, like, a trigger or point where you realized, like, this is the way I want to live life? Was there, like, a moment or is it more gradual? It was a born idea, even.
It was really. One of the major shaping pieces was Shabbos. Like, when I was beginning my journey, Shabbos became like this oasis in time and space and place. Like, I remember, like, there was a rabbi who came onto the Senior University of Florid, Rabbi Yonah Schiller, God bless him, and his wife, Robinson Schiller. And I remember, like, they were there as an adjunct, like, staff to help within the Hillel House students grow. And it was beautiful. They really knew how to, like, find, like, students and get to them in a way that was very meaningful. I remember, like, going to, like, these massive, like, Hillel Shabbat dinners. And then, like, Rabbi Yon would be like, hey, okay, let's go. Like, where are we going? And he would take us to his house. It would be like a meal for, like, five of us. And, like, we would have Shabbos dinner there. And it was warm, intimate, homemade hummus with, like, homemade earthenware.
Free food, of course.
Free food.
Oh, that's great.
Yeah. But it was just like, it was a certain warmth and just, like, depth that you can't feel in sometimes in the masses. And that really started opening me up, realizing, what is a Shabbos thing? And I realized I really. I always say that, like, Shabbos saved my life. Shabbos saved my life. It's actually a very deep idea. The Orochamma Kodesh brings this down, that there's a specific Tehillim that David, that Adam Harishon articulated Adam from like the Bible. Adam Harishon, yeah, Adam and the Adam and Eve. And it starts mismor Sheer Leoma Shabbos, a song for Shabbos. So there's like a big question, like, Adam as a scribe only written one tehillim. Why is his to helm referring to Shabbos as like, the first line? So the answer is because it was actually in the merit of Shabbos that Ottoman Rishum survived because he was supposed to have been enacted the death sentence for having eaten from the tree of Good and Evil and immediate death. But Shabbos as an advocate said, hey, wait a second. Sunday has Monday, Monday is Tuesday, Wednesday has Thursday. I'm Shabbos. And you told me that I'm going to have the Jewish people. If you get rid of Adam, there's no Jewish people. I'm going to be all alone. And in that merit of that claim, God's like, okay, guy, we're not killing you. We're going to give the chance to be, so to speak, the burgeoning of the spiritual seed called the Jewish people through you in the merit of Shabbos. And when Adam Arushem realized that, when he realized how he was at the discussion. But when he realized that, he sang Mizu morshir le Yama Shabbos. This is a song for Shabbos, a sense of gratitude that Shabbos saved his life. And I feel similar also. I feel like Shabbos really opened me up to spirituality that I never would have realized beforehand and opened me up to everything else.
That's fascinating. That's a very difficult thing to do from the outside. I keep Shabbat as well, right. And it was not easy to start and all those things. But to not use your phone, not use electricity, not drive anywhere, it's like for 25 hours. And then the holidays also. It's like, that is a. That's. It seems like a tall order. Like, it really does.
You're like, you're like. As you say it, I'm like, oh, spiritual Jacuzzi. I'm like, yes, put me back in. I. I'll tell you, when I was an undergraduate and I had my phone, I didn't have a smartphone at the time. It was way back. But it was just a regular phone. I was still so busy and when I started turning off my phone, my flip phone, right for Shabbos, I felt so relaxed, like it was just, like it was like, I don't, I don't have to answer you, I don't have to respond right now. And that freedom that it gave me is something that still, is still something I feel even today. And I look forward to, I look forward to turning off that phone. I look forward to not getting away from my pockets of keys and pockets of credit cards and just divesting myself of all those things and just being like, I don't get to be a human and be present. Nothing else is around me other than my orbit of my life. And that mindfulness and that presence is really makes the present a present, a gift. And I'm really able to just tap into it. And I was just teaching a class this past Monday talking to my students about the three day Yomtiv, the infamous three day experience of 72 hours of divestiture of electronics. And I feel like a human being after.
Meaning the three days when you have certain holidays that are attached to Shabbat, you have instead of just one day of not using electronics or whatever, it's three straight days.
That's right. Because usually it's a holiday, two day holiday outside of Israel, plus a Shabbos, either at the end or at the beginning, whatever, however works out. Yeah, like that is, is an oasis of time that I just, I treasure because I get to just fully immerse myself in life.
One of the, one of the things that surprised me when I started to get more involved in the, in the Jewish, Jewish scene is that there's plenty of like very successful business people, billionaires, multi billionaires that keep Shabbat. My first thought was like, okay, come on man, like you check your emails, check your whatever, because how do you step back for one day a week and have no access to any of these things? And it was very shocking because they did it and they're very successful. And it was a bit of a learning experience that like, you know, at some point, if you, if you take that time off the table, you become more productive throughout the rest of the week. Not just practically speaking, but, you know, you take a break, you kind of let your mind think more about the more important things. It's like even in a business, you have to take a step back and focus on the mission once in a while so that you can go and implement that.
Sure. They look working on the business or working in the business.
Right.
Those are two different modalities of development. Right. Also. And also Stephen Covey calls it sharpening the saw.
Right?
You have to take time to sharpen your saw, which. That's the metaphor for him, which is taking time for thoughtful reflection. He didn't say keep Shabbos, but as a Torah observant Jew, you know, using Shabbos wisely sharpens your saw. You're able to reflect, allow yourself time to breathe, allow yourself time to go over the weekly happenings and also forget them. Right? The BAAL Shem Tov was one of the leading. Is the founder of the Hasidic movement in the 18th century. And he created an entire worldwide of a system. We're not going to go into it now, but he forever changed a paradigm of how Jews can relate to Judaism and to each other. Now, he used to have at his meal on Friday night farfel, which is like wheat, like a sort of like wheat that was made over. It's like a wheat dish, like a. I forgot to describe. It's like almost like a stuffing. It's a Jewish stuffing, basically. And the Jewish stuffing, he would serve it specifically because in Yiddish, the word for farfel is similar to the word farfallen, which means it's happened, it's in the past. And the message he was teaching people through the dinner was saying, hey, guys, Shabbos is here. Far full, far fallen. It's in the past. Whatever happened, all the business happenings, all the contracts, all the frustrations, all the stress, far fallen. It's in the past. We're now here in Chavez mode. Focus on now.
Right? So you seem like, you know, I've known you for a number of years. I never were that close or anything, but you seem like a very intelligent guy, Right? You know, you're working on it. You have your. You have your life together. You know, you were a lawyer. It's a question I've struggled with myself. And I know a lot of people that are probably listening. It's like, come on, you know, religion is a bit of a. You took a leap of faith. You know, like, what. What rational reason is there to believe any of this stuff is true? I can buy. For example, I'm speaking on behalf of people right now, not myself, but, like, I can buy the fact that it's a better way to live life. Like, I can. I can get there, right? But, you know, there's a lot of good ways to live life. It's one thing to live a nice life, but it's nothing to live, you know, with a false ideology. Meaning like, how you know that it's real.
Great questions. So these are Fundamentals of Judaism 101. And there's two questions really, within your question. Number one is how do I know God is real?
Right.
You got to start there. Because if you don't know God is real and you're not tapping into a God reality, right. Then forget about any of the brands, so to speak. Right. How do I do anything? So are we asking that question or are we asking, now that I know that God is real, assuming God to be real, how do I know that Judaism is the right product?
Right.
So which question do you want to double click on?
Well, I think embedded in the question is both questions, because validity to something means that I don't believe you can come to certainty on anything. I don't think anyone really claims that. But you have to get to a certain level of comfort that what you're doing is valid.
Okay, so interesting. So you can't. I just want to double click on one thing. You said you can't get to the level of certainty. But think about it. What's two plus two?
That's not a trick question.
No, it's not, because. But it proves the point that there is certainty. You know, it's funny. I had a conversation with ChatGPT. I call it ChatGPT, right. When we're discussing, you know, it's. I was trying to see if it was able or willing to agree that Torah Judaism is the authentic awesome religion and they're. And better than others, so to speak, in terms of validity, according to raw logic, raw AI.
Let's hear it on one foot.
Yeah. So when I, When I spoke now with Chat GPT, right, it was saying, like, let's speak out. Why is Judaism more logically valid or reasonably valid than other religions? Right. And it doesn't take ChatGPT to do this. This is something that most, you know, basic queue of rabbis and outreach rabbis should have under the belt, and most rabbis have underneath their belt, which is just obviously that Judaism itself is distinct in that it has a national revelation quote narrative. No other religion has that. Now what's the difference? What does that mean? Means we claim millions of people saw one thing. Millions of people experienced the redemption. Millions of people saw the miracles of man falling from the sky. Millions of people saw the resolution of the rebellion of Korach, which are all stories in the Old Testament with miracles.
These are open miracles that are part of the Bible.
Yeah, it's all. These are all things that are in the Torah that Are there? So there's a reality point of saying, like, well, Jews are either validating or invalidating the story, right? And I almost look at it like, you know, when we think about blockchain technology, it's the perfect metaphor to describe how we validate Judaism. Because what is blockchain? Blockchain is basically saying that one computer validates one agreement and that basically then solves off the chain of motion that others validate that validation. Right? And to the point where collectively everything is validated at this one point. So you can't change one piece of a puzzle unless it has to be counter validated.
Right.
Similarly, when you go to Australia and you go to Panama and you go to Peru and you go to LA and you go to Miami and you go to Toronto, everyone's shaking the same s Rogue Citron during Sukhos. Everyone is light, everyone's wearing black to fill in the phylacteries, and they're not wearing pink ones, right? There's. Well, how'd that happen? Because everyone got the memo. The memo, right, was distributed at Mount Sinai, and that collective consciousness and communal consciousness was cemented. And the fact that you see the ripple effects and you see the continu. Continuation of the same Torah, literally the same words, the same letters. You open up a tour in California, has to be the same Torah in Montreal and the same Torah in Australia. If one letter is off, it is pasul. It is prohibited to be written from and read from one letter. So that level of scrutiny and blockchaining, so to speak, is what happened at Mount Sinai. And no other world religion leaves a claim to that.
Right?
And plus me, you and I both know sometimes, you know, when it takes to convince a Jew of something, that takes a lot of work right now, convincing millions of them for thousands of years and at the cost of your life, if someone says something that you better go worship and bow down to this thing, right? According to Judaism, that's one of the three mitzvahs that we had to allow ourselves to be killed. Heaven forfend.
So it's interesting. It's interesting you bring that up, because I spent a lot of time on this particular topic. You know, maybe that is for a whole other, you know.
Yeah, that's the pilot or, you know, profit or Pivot podcast.
But, yeah, but it's important because, you know, for anyone that's listening that's actually interested in this topic, there are kind of two approaches to this particular question. One is it's. It's called in the philosophy circles, you know, Gottlieb's gambit. Right. That's probably the best person that's put this argument in a real philosophical setting, Rabbi David Gottlieb. He's at Orzeman, Jerusalem, and he's written a couple books on this. And he's. He's the one that's really dealing with the tough issues around this particular argument of national revelation being a way to validate the Jewish tradition. Right. Meaning in his argument is deductive. You know, it's. He's coming up with a principle in philosophy saying there is a certain category of historical event. And this category of historical event, if it happens to a particular nation, to the extent that you can validate it, it's always been validated to be true and never validated to be false. Meaning if a nation experiences something and it's. There's a tradition of it and there's, you know, it's a complex philosophical argument, once you look at the particulars. But let's just for simplicity, say a national event, like a war, miracles certain things like this, but it doesn't have to miracles. It could be any national event, like a natural. Natural disaster. And if the nation has a tradition of it, and we've been able to validate said tradition, meaning we have archaeological evidence or whatever, it's always proven to be true. So now you put the Jewish story, meaning the revelation, the miracles in the. In the Torah, and you put it onto that exact same template. Template.
Yeah.
There's no reason not to believe it's true. The only reason you wouldn't believe it's true is because there is. The consequence of it is that the Torah is valid. That would be the reason not to accept it, which is more of a bias against the Torah being valid.
Yeah. Look at.
There's another. There's another rabbi, Rabbi Kellerman, that comes in from a more of a inductive reasoning, meaning he tries some sort of, you know, psychology that people won't accept. People, like, if they're. If you go to someone and tell them that, you know, you experienced XYZ or your parents experience xyz, they won't accept it because people don't think that way. That's a. I think it's a weak argument, but that's an argument that's made.
You know, I was taught from another one of my rabbis, Rabbi Fakenbaum, he said it talked about green tails. Right. Because if someone said to you, you know, 400 years ago, Jews had green tails, you'd be like, what are you talking about? You'd be like, no, no, no, this is two green tables. And you'd be like, prove it. What would you have to do to prove it?
Right?
You would have to go through a tremendous amount of historical, historical identification. You have to go through forensics to get some photographs, get some pictures, get some real primary case examples. Show me something, right, that doesn't believe that we had green tails. So this is similar to the point that, like the point of at Solomon's temple, right, which is only 400 years post Moses, right. There was a global national recognition of the Jewish people being in operating, right? There was a temple. We have third party historicity demonstrating that there was a temple standing and that everyone was believing in Moses Judaism at that time period that was only 400 years before that. So if someone wanted to say like, well, you know, you have to do these mitzvahs, keep these laws which are very intense, tremendous man. They cover every single aspect of human life.
I've heard, I've heard this, this argument, I've heard this argument before. I think it's a bit weaker because it relies on an understanding of how traditions develop. And it's much more complicated than that, I think. Meaning you don't know the way people thought about things at the time. You don't know how to. We don't know how traditions develop. I mean we have an idea. But it's very possible that traditions develop, you know, spontaneously over time. You know, that's why I think the godly approach is better.
Meaning we can, we can agree to disagree on it. Meaning there's a lot of nuance because it's kind of like evolution, right? If evolution's continuously process existing. That's showed to me right now, right? Show it to me in real time. Because there has to be at least one moment. Same thing with evolution of traditions. Even traditions themselves have to be. If you show me spontaneous tradition making which does exist, but is there longevity? Are people willing to commit their life to it, commit their suffer death from it?
I think a lot of people believe in stupid things.
Well, that's true.
I don't know Even today with all the evidence you can have about a particular topic, people believe in crazy things. People believe in the flat earth conspiracy theories. So I think the capacity for human beings to believe in things contrary to evidence, but it's very, very high.
I just want to. Well, maybe we'll end it up on this point though, which is just the distinction is, is that flat earth theorists require no personal skin in the game. Meaning there's that's the difference I want to point to is that, like, my life has to be on the line, right. I have to invest in Judaism. Judaism, not asking for passive mindfulness or passive thought processes alone. It's saying you got to get up and do something.
Right.
Flat earth theorists, they're still going to have no level of responsibility based on their philosophical point of view. Nothing changes for them. Right. As opposed to us. And that's where I want to make that distinction between just thoughts versus the requirement that Judaism does ask of us.
I mean, man, you have an optimistic view of human beings, I think, which is, which is probably important. There are plenty of people that give up their lives and do terrible things on the basis of falsifiable ideologies. A lot. And I don't want to mention them on camera, but there are plenty.
Look, there's always going to be people who are driven by other motivations and rationales, right? There's, there's Keena, Taiva, Kavod, there's jealousy, there's desire, there's honor. Right. In those three things, those are massive drivers of people in the world today. And oftentimes when we look at any of these philosophies or theories, oftentimes they're just masking those three. Right. Drivers. And if we were to do a psychological double click, we would probably see those things at the center of it oftentimes. So we can get into it. We're not here for the psychological breakdown of world religions or how people think, but.
Oh, why not? I mean, that's always a good topic. Yeah, but it's what's interesting. So just for anyone that's interested in this topic, I mean, I spent a lot of time on it, I'm sure, obviously, Rabbi, you clearly have as well. There's a great book, a couple great books by Rabbi David Gottlieb. So if anyone's interested in this topic, he's.
Check him out.
It's just great. I've had correspondence with him in the past, really ask him some of the difficult questions on this particular topic. One thing that I've noticed, this is my personal, you know, opinion. Every time I encounter something difficult in the Torah, and there's plenty, if you just read the plain English, it's very. There's a lot of difficult things in there, right. That from like the way I grew up in the modern society, you come across very difficult, seemingly more moral imperatives that, that are in there. And every time I do a deep dive and I really just say, let me just see what what the tradition says about, not like what people today are trying to do, say apologetic, like apologetics today, but like, let me look at what the tradition says. I always come out of it with a much greater appreciation for the tradition. Like, it's. I, I think I'm the guy that, that came up with this great question. It's like, no, this question's been asked.
Thousands of years, thousands of times, answered by thousands of rabbis in even more.
Nuanced ways and even ways that you can't even think of until you learn it. And it's not always emotionally satisfying because it's not always emotionally satisfying. But it, you come out of it thinking, okay, there's something pretty special here because they deal with some of the most complex moral issues in the most, in a very real way that you just don't experience just in your day to day or reading philosophy, just, just kind of as a layman. But okay, I want to go back to your story here. Why did you stop being a lawyer? Because it's, you know, you're a Jewish guy in what, Florida? Like, hey, it's pretty good life. You can make good money. What happened?
Yeah, you know, I went into law. Firstly, I'm unique. I went to law because I'm an idealist, right? You have to remember I came back from starting the social enterprise with social education, right? And then before going even into law school, I did something called AmeriCorps. So I was a part of something called City Year, where I worked as an educational literacy coach for disenfranchised and underprivileged children in Washington, D.C. and Southeast. I did that for an entire year, 2,000 hours of dedicated education, right? And I just, and my desire was different. I didn't come into law school thinking, like, I want to make money.
Really?
Yeah, I did it. I went, I went into law school already with the mindset of saying, like, I want to impact the world. I want the world to be a better place. I was already, like, I tasted from undergraduate and then through, and then before going to the AmeriCorps, like, just the value of, like, helping and bringing change and transformation to people's lives. And I'm like, this is incredible. So I looked at law school as like a tool to have in order for me to influence the world. I said, when I go to law school, like, it just, it changes the dynamic. You walk into a room and people like, oh, yeah, you know Josh Keller, Rabbi Keller, he's a lawyer and a master's degree, don't forget that. But, but you know, it changes the temper of how people perceive you. And I knew that was to be true already. Before that, I knew that to be true. And I said, if I want to make influence in the world, then that ethos, that credibility is essential. And so I said, let's. Let's do it. Let's go for it. So I made a big investment in for it. And so, yeah, I ended up practicing law and has shaped the way that it gives me a broader toolkit and like, more of like a scalpel, right? To be able to cut through and not be afraid of verbiage and language and paperwork and bureaucracy. And I just said, like, okay, how can we use this to change the world? And when I was in law school, I continued to do more social education, right? I built up that Entrepreneur, Social entrepreneur program. I also did some. The Marshall Brennan Constitutional Law project, which basically I went into, you know, that school I taught when I was. Before I went to law school. Well, I went to the high school. Those kids I've been up at, right? Which is one of the most, second most dangerous school in all of North America, right? And I went in there with my keepa and my bags and my idealism and saying, like, I'm gonna teach you constitutional law, but really I'm gonna role model for you. Like, a positive, optimistic way of living the world. And we work with students who.
It's like that movie with Michelle Pfeiffer. What's Dangerous Minds? Yeah.
Rabbi Caller coming in. It wasn't Rabbi Callum then. I was just Josh with Akiba, right? And I would go in and I would be there with a few of my other friends from law school, and, like, we were there to change lives and. And I just felt, at the end of the day, you know, there's so many lawyers, unfortunately, who. Who do the career and are practicing their career and feel very financially fulfilled, but the other part of their lives are lacking. And I said to myself, like, I just don't feel like that's. For me, I feel more of an entrepreneur. I feel more of a social entrepreneur. And I'll even phrase it like this. Soul S O U L Entrepreneur. Soul shoul Entrepreneur. Where I feel like investing in people's souls and giving people true life is like, really literally what I want to make an impact on. And that mindset affected, obviously, how I redirected myself after law school because I practiced law for about a year and I worked on a very big case going up against, like, David and Goliath case book time for a whole other Story for then, but I ended up working that case and saying, like, I don't know if I want this life. And I felt like I. I felt something else that I wanted. And then going to yeshiva just gave me like, oh, like it was a whole new implant in my brain. I'm like, this makes sense. This makes sense to me. This resonates with me. I feel like this is right. And so a few months, stayed to a few years, ended up getting married, stayed back for a few more years in yeshiva.
Oh my gosh. How many years did you spend?
I was four years in yeshiva.
Wow.
And then I came back and I worked as an assistant rabbi at a local shul here while still learning mornings for three hours a day.
Here being Toronto.
Yeah, here being Toronto. And then, you know, and I've been learning since and I've had like now, now people are like, oh, you're a lawyer. I'm like, you don't understand. I've like pen topled the amount of learning I've done in law school, if not more in my Jewish studies, that I have everything. So when you people like, oh, wowed by that. I'm like, you don't realize, like, I'm just like, I'm like a white belt rabbi compared to other verbain that are out there. But like, it's just a never ending vastness and there's just so much. But yet again, I'm still dedicated to continuing to chomp on through it and get my way through. Right.
It's quite fascinating because I also went to yeshiva after university. I was 22. And it was just a bit, it was such a culture shock because in university and I went to the top business program in Canada and you. And it's, you know, a lot of type A people, very, you know, a lot of those people very successful. And I think it was 20 hours of in class and you're expected to do 20 hours at home, kind of like, yeah, work. That was the expectation, I believe. And I go to yeshiva and like, the expectation is you're learning 10 hours, 12 hours a day. Like actual very difficult learning. Your mind has to be on, you know, it's very difficult. So it was just a different expectation. And it changes the way you think about learning about your day. You know, if you're taking it seriously, that means you're probably going to prayer three times a day or you're really immersed. Like, if you're going to do it, you should be immersed in it, you know. And I was like, my goodness, in one day Here I'm basically doing more learning than I would do in a week in the best university, business university program, you know, where I'm coming from. And it just. Your life is not the same after. Even if you decide not to keep it up after. It's just real perspective changes.
You know, it's funny, I think, you know, Hashem made me invest, you know, a lot of money in my law school so that I can gain the power of being able to sit. Sitting power, right? Where I could just sit for eight hours at a time. I remember, like, it was like, because in law school you only get like one exam. That's it. You get like a final exam. And like, that's your entire grade one exam. Good luck, right? And I remember, like, it was like a business. It was business and contracts law. And I'm like, I went to the classes and I'm just like, I just didn't put as enough time throughout the semester. So I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna dedicate one week and read 800 pages.
My gosh.
And so I would sit down 9am, get a nice breakfast, take care of myself and be there till 10, 9pm and just sit and read and sit and read and crank and read and sit and read. And that was it. That was all I did. And so, like, going to yeshiva after that, I was like, no problem. You're gonna give me like a break and I'm gonna get a lunch and I get the shoes with the guys, and I'm able to, you know, go out for a little run and I'm gonna be able to then come back and do. I'm like, this is amazing. You know what I mean? Like, I wasn't scared. Like, people go to. All of a sudden, you go to undergraduate university, right? Like, think about in high school, I would spend. It was like basically seven in the morning, because that's when I was in the car. But 8 until 4pm, right? That's like just sitting, doing things. Then you have like that 45 minutes for lunch also. You go to university and you're like, I don't get it. You can't sit for eight hours in one day. So I'd actually went to university. I would actually up, like, double load my classes. So in one day I would have six hours. So I'd have two days of classes only. And I would do all of my class in those two days because I'm like, I can sit for eight hours a day. And then when I got to law school, I'm like, I can sit for eight hours a day. So when I get to yeshiva, like it wasn't so that to me like was a big kindness that Hashem did because he's just like, yeah, like you have the muscle now. I think you're right. If people go from the expectation of like you're gonna hang out for a few hours, you sit for a few hours, like you're right. It's harder to adapt the body and the mind for it. And that's why I feel very blessed and just the, the order of operations Hashem put me through, it felt very natural for me at that time period. And actually I'll tell you the truth, when I got to yeshiva, I was able to divest all of my social responsibilities. I didn't have any more non profits, I didn't have any more student organizations. Right. I was leading student organizations for American University. So it was like 70 or 80 operations and I was helping to orchestrate and manage and, and I'm like, it's all gone. And all of a sudden I could just like be for 8 hours or 10 hours a day learning. And I also have my own free time with nothing else. It was like, it was like God aided. It was paradise.
So you're basically like running a small business. You have what like 10 employees today?
Yeah, we have around big budget. Yeah, we have 10 employees. We have over a seven figure budget. It should be bigger and I want it to be bigger. The whole goal of the budget for being bigger is obviously to make more impact, not just to have more money for money's sake. But we have around 10 employees and about four full time, six part time. And what we do with that is ultimately we create an engine of impact. We have several different organizations, I mean operations that are happening in different programs. We operate pretty much seven days a week. We have seven different educational programmings on top of one on one classes, on top of providing Shabbos experiences, on top of providing worldwide trips. And we also act as concierge to help people connect with other community members. We have mentorship programs that are operating. We have continuous one on one development coaching available even outside of our staff.
What's the overarching mission of the organization? Like what is it? What does it exist to accomplish?
For me, I look at it, I think you ask every Olamy branch around.
The world, most people don't know what Olamy is.
Yeah. So just to explain it, Olumi is a global enterprise of a foundation that really contributes to over 185, maybe even more operations. Around the world that are really there to empower and educate Jews between the ages of 18 to 32 years of age. So Olami Toronto sits here within Aish Hatorah and we operate in collaboration and we work to focus on that same core demographic. And if you ask me, my mindset behind it is empower, educate, but really bring transformation, not information. The goal of Torah is transformation and revelation. It's not about this is what God said. Know it, because this is what God said. Only it's about this is what God said. Like this is a massive opportunity. Like the creator of the universe gave us guidance about how we can live our lives and, and educate and empower ourselves and bring about a massive transformation that lasts for eternity. The work that we do in the world and the work that we do on ourselves is not just temporal today. It's, it's forever. And when you can live with an eternity mindset, right. And you appreciate like there really is eternity. And that's why if you know there's a God and you know there's an eternity and he's enduring our existence for all eternity, which is actually a tremendous kindness.
I don't know what's scary if that's not true or it is true. Either is scary.
Either scary, right? If you want to bleep out, like that's actually amazingly simple. If a person believes that this is the end of it all, terrifying.
If it's just after someone passed away, they're just, it's done. That is a terrifying thought.
It could be, but it also could be very relieving for some people. That's very relieving. You can create an entire episode of horror and you have no consequences, there's no repercussions. I've done everything that I wanted to do and I've got away with it.
Yes, right.
Like that's, it's scary to think that. That's scary to think that person get away with it. Right? But if you understand eternity and longevity of eternity, right. And the opportunity of eternity, well then you're like, there's no such thing as getting away with it. You're accountable for it, for everything. Right. Not that God wants to whack us on things, but the opportunity that you have an opportunity to fix everything, you have an opportunity to develop and patient. It's like a patient educator and parent who just wants the best for you, which is God, which God wants. God wants all of us, all of humanity to achieve its ultimate self actualization. And I feel like that goes back to the core mission that I tried to deliver. It's like we are an engine of self actualization using Torah technology. That's what we want Olimi Toronto to be. And we really want people to find value in Judaism because it helps them aligned to their ultimate higher self that they know exists.
Right.
Many people are not rarely to have our parents be like there's those things as an ultimate higher self within me doesn't exist. Right.
So it's interesting I'm a bit more cynical when it comes to human beings, as maybe you've picked up. I've benefited tremendously from, from all of me before. So I'm grateful it's impacted my life in a positive way before. Before you got here, I was very much involved with some of the programs. I have a question for you, you know, more of a philosophical one. Do you believe people are fundamentally good or bad?
Fundamentally good. People are fundamentally good. There's a, there's a great, There's a fascinating doctor psychologist. Her name is Dr. Becky. I think it's like Dr. Becky Freeman and she, her. Her podcast is called in a book called the Good Inside. Right. And this is a fundamental philosophy that a non Jewish. Right.
Becky Friedman's non Jewish.
Yeah, ironically. But it's. It's a non Jewish author and psychologist who. Her entire philosophical underpinning behind her, her approach to children and childhood development is good inside, that children are inherently good and really all people are inherently good inside. So I'm just saying, like that's already, that's already normative and she's massively successful.
It's a rossoian kind of idea which, you know, has the consequences of that idea seem, you know, that people are going inside. Yeah. Fundamentally good.
I think, I think we are. That's our, that's our soul. Right? Now what happens is that we do have a counterpart, right. God placed in us what's called the yetzer hara. This, this powerful energy for us that is there to create the balance which allows for free choice to exist. Because if you left in your natural state without a yetzer hara, you would be a malach. You'd be an angel. You'd be a divine being, totally always dedicated to good. But now that you're in the body and now that you're in this system, God's like, I'm gonna give you a counter, a sparring partner, which now allows you to now feel the opposite side. And you, as whoever you are with a Y, capital Y, you are the mediator and arbitrator and chooser between these two compelling Forces. So when we. And that's. And because of that, that's what allows it to be what's called reward and punishment.
Right.
I like the word punishment. It's really reward and fixings. But it's the idea in the sense that because there is a mediator and arbitrator, you have free choice, you get to choose. And when we empower ourselves by learning Torah, we're allowing the fight to be easier because we're strengthening the side to choose easier for the good. It's like you're on a diet. Not that you need a diet or any diet. No, but say you're on a diet.
I've been told by the way that being overweight is beautiful and healthy. So I'm just going to take that.
And speak to a local cardiologist, general practitioner, nutritionist before recommending not health advice, not financial advice, no repercussions. So when we think about the bounty counterpoint, we need to have freedom of choice because God wants to give the ultimate reward to us. Right? This is the time for the reward. But I can't give you reward unless you chose something for it. Right. So we ultimately want to and should identify with our neshama, which is who we are. That is neshama being the soul who we are. But there's a counterpoint there. Right? But ultimately who we are is that neshama. And our job is to allow it to be the true you, the choosing you that you identify with. Right? So anything else other than that is really a, an aberration of the choosing you.
So, so let's. Because, you know, a lot of the people that may listen to this are very ambitious people that are trying to build something, a business where they're already kind of maybe on their way. What would be like, your recommendation? Jews and non Jews would like, like what is a practical thing they can start doing if they want to incorporate more of these ideas into their, into their daily life to like help them succeed.
First of all, you know, I was mentioning this. You know, it's axiomatic in Judaism. It's was a concept called right, you should love your friend like you love yourself. Right. One of the great sages was asked, teach me the entire Torah on one foot. And this is what he said, love your friend or love yourself, zilva gemor. The rest is go and learn the rest of the commentary. Right, but what does that mean? It means that there's an idea of interpersonal relationships, right, but which is ultimately so powerful and true, but premised on this concept Is kemoha like you love yourself. So if you want to love somebody else, you have to love yourself. So I would say like when you're starting spiritual journeys, the first thing that needs to be calibrated is your relationship with yourself. Are you in love with yourself?
Yes.
Are you, are you not egotistically, but are you your own best friend? How do you talk to yourself? What are the words and tones that you say with inside yourself? What's your inner dialogue or monologue sound like when you're acknowledging, challenging or working within yourself? And I think that the recommendation in order for a person to even have that is creating space for oneself. So what's a practical recommendation? Do some E dieting, which means don't have your phone on you. Right. Take away the opportunity for things to interject into your consciousness and create a separate time for you just to experiencing yourself. And when you create that space now you have a vacuum where you can actually just be with yourself, share your thoughts, feel your feelings. And not in like a touchy feely way because feelings sound very like, oh, too busy for feelings.
Very new age type.
Yeah, very new age, crunchy. But look, I'm also trained as an executive coach.
Okay?
Yeah, it's one of my additional trainings. I've been trained from a tourist side basic coaching, but also also ICF certified Internet Coaching Federation trained. And there's a beautiful model called the EQI. And in this EQI model that provides 15 different subsets of like what makes up emotional intelligence. And at the spine of this system is self awareness, Self awareness.
Right?
And emotional self awareness. And also self regard, which means are you aware of what's going on inside you? Are you emotionally tapped in to your feelings and thoughts and how you make other people feel and think? And also do you appreciate and respect and accept yourself? Like those three pieces are at the spine and central body of an emotional intelligence training system which executive coaches use all the time to help transform leaders on a one on one basis. Right? So really this is just a tool within that spectrum. And it sounds new agey, but if you speak to executive coaches today and what they're trying to work with their Leader, Senior Leadership CEOs of multi billion dollar enterprises.
Right?
Self awareness is key.
Sounds terrifying.
It is terrifying. But the leader who is self, aware, right. Is the leader who's able to truly lead.
Like maybe you can go into that a little bit because self aware sounds, it sounds easy. I'm kind of joking, saying it's terrifying, but it does sound easy. But I know it's not because I've tried to do this right myself.
Yeah.
It's something that I've implemented since I was 18 or 19 and I recorded. Right. I have thousands of entries into this in the Hebrew, a spiritual accounting. So I'd spend, I used two minutes a night, three minutes a night, whatever it is. But religiously and I just, you know, reflect, write down how, you know, good or bad, something. I usually have an exercise and that changed my life because it forces me to kind of like stop, stop everything and just think about, okay, what am I doing Right. And it's scary because if you actually give yourself the space to reflect in a consistent way, you learn things about yourself that are very scary.
Yeah. And first of all, I think that's what makes you unique. Right. That's a, that's a diligent practice that I highly respect. I don't know if any, any of many business leaders take to that, that practice. Right. They should. But that itself is, is already a high level right of giving yourself space to reflect and refine yourself. And I think if you were to look at senior leaders who are transforming their businesses and their cultures, and I think these are the people who must have some sort of zone of this self reflection, self awareness space. But for other people, they're hustling, right. And they believe that hustling is the way to go. And I don't deny it, like I'm hustling all the time, but I also daven and pray three times a day, which allow me to connect to my creator, connect to myself, and to be able to bring out those reflection points in a healthy, constructive space all the time. And I use those prayers for that. And if you actually look at the Hebrew word for prayer title, right? And hits Palel in Hebrew is a reflexive verb which if you don't know what reflexive means, it means it goes something you do to yourself. So am I praying to myself. That's what prayer is. So one of the definitions of Paleo is to judge oneself not like in a negative way, but to review. So he Prayer is a sense in a set, an opportunity of self reflection. And in that space of self reflection, you now go to the Creator and be like God. This is who I am. I need your help on this one. Look who I've become. Or look who I become. Amazing. Like thank you. Or look who I become. Please help me. And it becomes an opportunity for transformation, using and we're talking to God to be a partner in your creation process, to become your ultimate Divine self in his image, like God. You made me, you want me to be like you. You told me maybe in God's image, so you want me to be like you. I see, I got this problem right now. I need you to come help me out because I can't do this without you. I need the, I need the manual, I need the instructions. You're the maker. It's like when you have a problem with your car, right? You don't call McDonald's. That's the wrong address, right. You got to call your dealer and if the dealer, and if you call the dealer, the dealer has a problem. Who's he calling? He's calling headquarters, right? Who's working with the mechanical engineers and the auto engineers who designed the system in the first place, right. They're going all the way back up. And so when you're connecting to God, you're going all the way back to the original engineer and you're saying, I need your help. Look what I'm going through right now, or thank you so much. Look what you've accomplished because of what you've given me, right? It's a totally different dynamic. So I have space, I want more space, but I have some space. But for the listeners out there, create space for yourself. Become a self aware leader. Doesn't, you know? And give yourself that zone of opportunity to breathe and relax because once you've allow yourself to be unfettered and not in that busyness mindset. Because business and busyness are similar, right? Not all the times is the busyness driving your business. It sometimes drives dizziness, not busy, right?
So. So the first thing is self reflection. That's obviously great advice. And you have it structured in your day through, at least through prayer, right? Some people don't have that. So obviously I would encourage them to set, you know, set time aside in their day to do that. A lot of people are struggling, you know, business. Listen, it's always hard to. It's never been easy to build a successful business, right? So I don't want to say it's particularly hard now because it's always been hard. But what advice would you give someone to like stay positive, you know, when things are not going right? Because I'll tell you, you probably know this from your own experience, obviously that building anything worthwhile, it's not a straight line. There's a lot of. It's always a struggle, like how does someone stay positive, like when they're facing rejection and failure constantly.
So first of all it's validating and normalizing rejection and failure. Right. We had a chance to speak with Miles Nadal. Who is Miles Nadal? In case you go. You can Google him. He's very rich. He's very rich. He's an amazing entrepreneur right out of here in Toronto, and impressive story, really came from rags to riches and a tremendous sense of generosity and philanthropy that is exhibited throughout his entire growth and journey as well. And I had a chance to speak with Miles on it, and one of the students asked from the audience, like, I'm trying to build a business. It's very hard to raise money. Like, what do I do? Right? And Miles is like, I'm trying to build a business and I'm trying to raise money. It's very hard for me to do. Right? And he's basically saying that, like, it's always going to be hard, right? Building business and getting money to do your business is not easy work. So if you come in and see obstacles, right? You have to appreciate no one goes into the Navy Seals training program thinking that they're going to be hanging out at Starbucks, right? They understand that is going to be grueling. And I think there's a. There's a misconception, right? From the entrepreneurial space and sometimes, sometimes different podcasts and social media influencers feed this misconception that it's easy. It's not easy.
Yeah, we don't do that here.
It's not easy.
I think I encourage people to, like, you know, quit.
No, I wouldn't say that either. But you got to be gritty, right? You got to be tenacious.
A lot of people should quit. A lot of people aren't. They shouldn't be doing what they're doing. They were sold a bill of goods, and they're probably. They'll be happier doing something else.
It could be. To be an entrepreneur is someone who's passionate, right? You have to be passionate about your cause or passionate about what you're doing or passionate about making money. But you gotta be passionate, right? You can't just be like, I'm just looking for something to do.
Payday or something.
Yeah, the entrepreneur was looking for a payday is not an entrepreneur. Now, you could be motivated by money. That's okay. But I think the most successful entrepreneurs are people who are. They're passionate people. They're people who are captivated and motivated by the idea, and they think this idea can work and it can influence the world, and they believe they can get a pay out of it, and they should be looking at it. If they're an entrepreneur and they're trying to get our roi. They have to be very clear and transparent. Like is this actually going to deliver a real ROI here or am I too passionate? Sometimes passion is can blind people. And that was just another piece of the puzzle. It's just talking about like biases, right? People are very biased, have self biases. It's hard to see themselves. Right. And that's why when you just mentioned before, about before you mentioned the journaling work that you did, you know, you're talking about, well, can. Doesn't everyone do this stuff? And I say like, first of all, not everyone has the discipline to do it. But then also there's also natural biases and sometimes we need a system or a third party to help us step outside of who we are in our own little, in our own mind. To you act as a mirror to let us see ourselves. And in those spaces that's when we're truly able to then have better self awareness and better growth. And that's why there's something called, you know, 360 degree trainings or 360 degree analytics or programs that are available for people to get diagnostic information about how they show up in the world or the workplace. So they can be. Oh, I, I think I'm.
Usually it's anonymously, right?
It could be anonymously. It depends on which program you're using. A lot of different ones. Some are not, some are not anonymous.
It's crazy. I just spoke to someone that sold a business, co founded business for $1.6 billion and he said one of the ways he was able to scale that business when it was really tough, it was exactly this 360° kind of like got, they got an executive coach and implemented this program and learned so much about himself. It's like that really changed how I was a manager and without doing that he would not have been able to scale his business.
Yeah. Because once again at the center of any enterprise is the entrepreneur, right? It's the you, the incubator that it's the you behind everything. Right? Because. And that's why for many, from a lot of the pitches that I tell the students is like when you develop yourself and you develop your true being, you're going to be better at everything, right? You're going to be better your business, you're going to be better at your marriage, you're going to be better at your partnerships, you're going to be better at everything because you are better the ride, you've risen the tide of your personality. Therefore all Boats in the harbor rise when the tide comes in. So too, when the tide comes in of your qualities and character, strengths, everything ascends. Every aspect of your life ascends.
I just want to go back to that idea of, okay, you have someone that's struggling in keeping a positive mindset. Your response was more like, well, it's business is tough. Kind of be prepared for that. Is that really the. Like, I hear that.
Yeah, that's not the only solution.
Okay, maybe. Do you have any other solutions?
Yeah, sure. That was just validating and normalizing. That's always a sense number one, like you're normal. It is tough. But I think that's an important piece because if you don't have that, you can feel like you're an aberration. And the other one is also knowing how to actually develop and engender your own good feelings. Right. So this is something that I coach students in and other executives in, which is how to create your own power phrase, right? Which is a short, psychologically rooted phrase that is pinpointed to give you energy you need in a specific area and time of your life. So some people might call it a mantra, but I call it a paraphrase. And the difference is that it's not just like a random mantra of like, do good, be good.
It.
It's. It's something specifically catered to what you need at that moment. And it's a self talk exercise. And I recommend when you craft this self talk exercise, it's like, give me 10 words, right? Give me 12 words. But whatever it is, you're. You're saying it in a way that allows you to believe it. And you're actually engending your subconscious self to absorb this message.
And do you have a paraphrase?
I have a few of them. It depends on what areas of my life. I have different areas for different phrases. So I actually have a power like song. But it's not power, it's. It goes like. So there's a phrase gamzulatova. Gamzulatova. Judaism means like this is also for the good, but not this is also for good. Like, this is also good. It really means like, this is good. This is good. Even if it's hard, this is good. The good is here. It's painful. No, no, no. It in essence is good. That's what gamza tova really means. So I have like a little song that I sing to myself. It's like, it's like happy go lucky. But it actually is a paradigm shifter because imagine Your experience is something very tough. And all of a sudden you hear this. Gamzula tova. This is what we say, gamzula tova. When things don't go my way. And then I'm like, yeah. Oh, yeah, okay. And I realized I'm like, yeah, okay. I can smile through this. This is tough. But that's my little melody line. And that's an example of a power phrase, right? But they can be, oh, so different with any different type of thing. Like, there's other experiences, other ones I say, like, I'm in the right time, I'm in the right place. I'm with the right wife in the right life. I just like a total acceptance of. Just like, here I am. Everything that I have in my life is exactly as it needs to be. It's all good, right? It just realigns me. And so, like, these are different phrases that I've developed for myself, right, at different times. And I have other ones that I've built and I throw away, right? Depending on what I need them for. But this is a. This is one of those things. And so how do you develop them? Right? That's. These are these power phrases, these anchors really just. You have to say, you have to phrase it. It's a whole methodology. But whatever, we can Google it, you can find it, you can find more information on it, right? There's. There's a whole bevy of information of how to develop these things. But creating a power phrase for yourself, I think, is a powerful way to engender, Awaken that subconscious and give it the messaging that it needs. Right? Speaking to that inner child. That will help really lower the temperature of a lot of issues.
So I guess we're going to wrap up here. It's been a very helpful conversation, by the way.
Thank you.
Do you have any book recommendations for entrepreneurs or people that want to get into the nonprofit space or anything? Any book or recommendation that, like, anyone you'll meet, just say, you have to read this book. Aside from the Bible or Torah, I.
Mean, the Talmud, you know, there's a great book that I really enjoy called the Leadership Challenge. It's a. It's a classic book, and it really describes, like, different modalities of needed leadership, like how they operate and how to develop them. And, like, it demystifies leadership in a very big way. And I feel like for an entrepreneur. For an entrepreneur to really be successful, you're a leader. Like, it does. It sounds. You might be like, I'm a programmer. I'm not really a leader. At the end of the day, if you're hiring people and you're firing people and you're praising people and you're rewarding people and, like, you need people and, like, unless you're able to do everything by yourself. Right. It could be. But I think today you. You need partners, you need partnerships. So that's leadership. Those relationship qualities. I felt the Leadership Challenge is a fantastic book that really just spells things out, demystifies, clarifies, provides great examples, and it really helps a person realize as an entrepreneur, how do I use leadership qualities as an entrepreneur to drive the business? And I really think that's a great starting place for any book.
That's a great recommendation. Rabbi Josh Keller, thank you so much. My pleasure. It's been a great conversation. I learned a lot.
Thank you.
For those out there, if you want to get involved in olami, you want to maybe explore your Jewish heritage or just want to see what they're doing, we're going to leave a link down below for some of their programs and a way to get in touch with Rabbi Caller there.
Thanks for having me.
