James Pasternak: Why Toronto is Failing & What it Will Take to Fix It

Today I have James Pasternak, a councilman for the Toronto City Council.

We have a crisis in the city, but too many people are blind to it.

Everything seems to have been degraded. Crime is up. Homelessness has skyrocketed. We seem to be spending more, but we're getting less as a society.

40% of those in our shelters, they are asylum seekers or refugees. Canada could handle about 250,000. During the Trudeau years, he moved it up to 500,000. Most want to come to Toronto, and we just— we were totally overwhelmed. Violent crime increased by over 50%. Our police feel that they're often undermined by the weakness of the judicial system. If people are not facing the consequences, they'll keep doing it. There seemed to be a segment of society thinking that a left-wing ideology will help them get a home and make life better for them. Of course, that has been not the case.

Explosion of antisemitism in Canada.

And a city that's got fear penetrating society has little future.

They were trespassing, they were harassing, they were threatening, and the police did nothing.

There was two-tiered law enforcement.

There was three ISIS-linked terrorists that were arrested, and these people have planned actual terrorist attacks, and they have the weapons and the means, and at least at least one of them have been released on bail. I can't wrap my head around that.

To have them on the streets while they're awaiting trial is outrageous.

Why should Jews stay in Toronto?

Why should we be intimidated?

Civil society, through its elected representatives, through its police, are saying, Jews, we don't want you here.

But I'm spending 60% of my time trying to get the city back to a place where it used to be respected worldwide, where it was a place where people could come from all over the world and raise their family and live in peace and security. And that's no longer the case.

What the hell is going on?

There's two main problems among the political elites. One is James. Thanks for having me.

Thank you for coming on.

Pleasure.

So my first question is, Toronto recently, a few years ago, elected a self-described socialist mayor, and this trend of electing far left or self-described socialists to become mayors of major cities across the Western world, is becoming much more common. Why do you think that is?

Well, I mean, this is the accidental mayor because she came to power through a by-election in which the incumbent resigned over a sex scandal. So people did elect her because the competition was slow out of the gate, the competition was divided, so there was a lot of vote splitting, and there seemed to be a segment of society thinking that, a left-wing ideology will help them get a home, will help their wages go up, will give them a better employer and make life better for them. Of course, that has been not the case.

So do you think if it was a normal election, she wouldn't have been elected?

Well, I mean, she's never gotten above about 260,000 votes. Back in the Tory days, he was close to 500,000 in his first election, 400 and change. And then 300 and change, she just scraped through really.

And for people that don't know, we're talking about Mayor Olivia Chow, the current mayor of Toronto, and hopefully not for long, but the current mayor of Toronto. There's an election this year, right?

There is an election this year on October 26th.

Okay, okay. That's fascinating. So I've lived in Toronto my whole life. We're talking about well over 30 years now. And I've noticed over the last few years, really since the COVID restriction era, that there's more homelessness. Everything not just became unaffordable, which Toronto has always been a bit on the pricier side of living, but it became exceedingly unaffordable in terms of groceries, in terms of rent, in terms of being able to purchase a home. Just everything seems to have been degraded. Crime is up, homelessness has skyrocketed. I remember just a few years ago, you'd always see homeless people here and there, but now there's entire homeless encampments. People, even in the suburbs where I live, it's like There's homeless people all over the place. So we seem to be spending more, not only in terms of public spending, but we're getting less as a society, and it's much more difficult to live. So, you know, you've been in municipal politics for quite a while. Why do you think this has happened?

These are very broad questions, but let me deal with the homelessness, for example. When I came to council 15 years ago, you had about 2,500, 3,000 people in our shelters on any given night in the wintertime when it was really cold. And now we're housing 15,000. Um, we see homeless people, uh, setting up tents in our camps, on our public right-of-way. We see them sleeping in the subways, on park benches. I mean, it is sad. It is very sad. Uh, but at the same time, uh, we don't have a good partner in Ottawa. 40% of those in our shelters are newcomers. They are asylum seekers or refugees. And any quick reading of the Constitution shows that immigration is federal jurisdiction and they should pick up the bill, but they're not. And they're leaving us holding an $800 million bill for all of the homeless, and they're cutting us back on much of the support for asylum seekers and refugees. That having been said, to really address the homelessness crisis, you need a national strategy and massive influx of funds for mental health, and substance treatment. Those are the two key elements. Uh, unless you're going to be talking about that, uh, then really you're not even in the ball game. Uh, the other thing I should add, supportive housing with wraparound services would probably be a third key element. This whole process and strategy of building shelters to warehouse people, that's not the way to treat the homeless.

So let's Dinesh, what the hell? What'd you do with the video? Why does it look like I'm in a club dancing? Sorry, Mr. Mata, I thought you said you wanted a more exciting edit. That's not what I meant. I meant it should look exciting, like add some captions, maybe zoom in here and there, not make me look like I'm in a club dancing, man. Many of us have tried to be more productive by hiring assistants offshore, and it rarely works out. We get excited by all the time we save, we think we found someone great, But they don't end up producing great work. They miss their deadlines and eventually they just ghost you. That's because finding great talent is hard, even when you don't have an ocean between you. Our episode partner, HireDana, is solving this challenge by finding and recruiting the most elite executive assistants in the world for business owners, executives, and anyone else whose life is getting very busy. They only accept 1 out of every 200 applicants to participate in an in-person paid intensive academy where less than 50% actually graduate. But once they do, HireDana gives them a stable income, comprehensive benefits, coaching and training that is ongoing, even if they are not placed with an employer. That means HireDana is not just sifting through resumes on your behalf. They are attracting the most elite and dynamic people because they are offering something truly different in the market. Great wages, stable employment, and a brighter future. These aren't average people. These are executive-level talent that can grow with you and your business. So if you're looking to grow on social media, you want more assistance in managing your team, or you just want someone to help you manage your life, now you can outsource a lot of that work to the incredible talent that HireDana can bring you. And HireDana has already placed elite executive assistants for executives at major firms like Cursar, Pine Grove Capital, and JP Morgan. With an unheard of retention rate of over 90%. So if you're finding that tasks are falling through the cracks or you're delaying critical growth opportunities for some future date, because you don't have the capacity to deal with it yourself, consider hiring talented, versatile, and hardworking executive assistants from HireDana. Listeners of the Profit or Pivot podcast will get 30% off for the first 3 months. Links will be down below. Uh, make sure to check it out. Let's do a little bit of a deep dive into homelessness because it is something that strikes me. When people walk by homeless people, they feel, rightly so, empathy. This is terrible. Let's find a way to help these people. But there's two issues you mentioned in terms of homelessness. Homelessness increased by over 100% in the last three years. I think the population, the people that are considered homeless are now about 15,000 in Toronto, something around that number. And you mentioned two broad groups. One are people that maybe have mental health issues and the other are refugees. Those are two vastly different reasons for people to be homeless, right? The mental health side of things, I don't even know what the solution is. Like, what is the solution to the mental health crisis?

Well, I'm not a doctor, but I could tell you this, that I used to do out of the cold program and we used to feed meals to those who were homeless. And what's interesting and sad is that many of these people had businesses, they had families, They owned a home and they had a crisis, a mental health crisis of which obviously the system could not treat or they would've been back on their feet again. So that's anecdotal, but that's part of the problem. If you can take that segment of society who have a crisis and get early treatment and care, you might be able to save their situation and they won't be on the street. I mean, there are other people who are, who also faced eviction, people who, who lost their jobs, who, who had their property expropriated, defaulted on their mortgage. You have hard luck stories. And of course you have other situations. I've met people who lost all their money through gambling. These are societal issues that have to be treated at the upfront before they become, before they go on a park bench. And that's the holistic method for treating it. Building housing for them, shelters, and putting them all in a warehouse, that's temporary.

But you mentioned that we're spending about $800 million on homelessness in Toronto alone. That's on the city budget. If you take that per person, it's like $50,000 per person per year. You can literally just rent a decent apartment for each of these individuals and have a lot of money left over. How is that money even being spent where you still have people in shelters?

Well, yeah, I mean, the, the, it's a fortune. It, it costs a fortune to house the homeless, uh, because, uh, you, you, you can't just give them $50,000 cash and send them off into, into society. These are people who are in many cases mentally ill or have some kind of substance abuse problem.

Mm-hmm.

So handing them $50,000 is not gonna get them a nice apartment and a nice life. They need supportive housing. They need transition from the homeless to back into society. And that can only be done with levels of treatment and a transition to a supportive housing. And then ideally they get themselves back on their feet.

Let's take even, let's leave the mental health people with mental health issues for now because that's a much more complicated issue, right? You can't just hand them money and expect them not to be homeless at that point. But let's take the refugees, right? A huge portion of the homeless population are also refugees. In that case, you can literally just say, here's an apartment, you know, for a year you have a free apartment. Go, you know, set yourself up, go learn the language, make sure that, you know, get your kids in school, go find a job. Like, why, why would we have any refugees still homeless? These are not people with mental health issues, right?

Well, I mean, some, some do, but you're, you have a valid point. Uh, if we let them into the country, We have to process them and they have to get status, and that is federal jurisdiction. And certainly the delay in getting status creates a housing, uh, a focused housing crisis because they can't like rent, they can't apply for rent. So they're not allowed to work, they have no money unless they brought some savings with them. Now we had a situation a couple of years ago in which dozens of people were sleeping on the sidewalk in front of our intake, uh, center. On Peter Street. And I don't know why it took 6 weeks to alert councillors, but it was a church in my ward that invited them all up. We bussed them all up, we gave them food and bedding, and they were there for a couple of months. And then they started heading out on their own, either with family or they got their status. So unfortunately, the process is slow, and that is why they so often come here without the resources to put a roof over their head and to feed themselves.

That seems like bureaucratic negligence at that point on the federal level, because why would they allow so many people in that they can't process enough? They can't process in time so that these people aren't homeless.

Well, that's right. What we could manage for decades was about 250,000 a year intake.

Uh, refugees or all the immigration?

So that was all in immigration. There were various categories, uh, of, of immigration. There were the asylum seekers, there were refugees, uh, there were investor, uh, investor refugees where if they came with a certain amount of money, uh, they went to the top of the line. Canada could handle about 250,000. During the Trudeau years, he moved it up to 500,000, and we just, we couldn't manage it. Most want to come to Toronto.

Mm-hmm.

And we just, we were totally overwhelmed.

Right. And I assume Toronto didn't, not assume, I can see Toronto didn't necessarily build the infrastructure to, you know, deal with all this influx of people.

No, what we did was, uh, it was an emergency, so we rented hotels. We took over entire hotels. Well, hotels are the wrong place for newcomers. You can't have a family in a hotel room. I mean, we go on vacation and, uh, and we're in a hotel room and it's fine for a week, 10 days, whatever it is. But you can't live in a hotel room. And those buildings were not built to have hundreds of people in there on a daily basis trying to raise families.

Right.

It just— the physical site, the arrangement of the room. But it costs us tens of millions of dollars to— hundreds of millions of dollars to rent those hotels. So we're trying to get out of the hotel business.

Right. What's interesting is that, and this boiled my blood a little bit when I saw this when I was doing research for this discussion, is that Toronto spends over $120 million specifically earmarked for refugees, right? So leave alone the fact that if anything should be spent on refugees, it should be the federal government because they're setting the policy. But even if it was the federal government, Canada is running tens of billions of dollars of deficits every year right now. It's like doing khazah, doing charity on a credit card. It's like, this seems like very not prudent, to say the least.

Well, look, I mean, then you have to get into the whole debate of what kind of society we want. If we're having a shrinking society in which we are not replacing the population we have, the only way to do that is through immigration. And that's been the logic over the last 20 years. The other thing is newcomers have a lot to offer us. They take jobs we won't take. They also come with skills. Some of them are doctors, engineers, lawyers. Maybe they need reaccreditation under current rules, but immigration can contribute to a flourishing society. The cost, yes, I mean, it really is, it is expensive. there's no real plan in place to transition them from, from when they land to when they get status. And, uh, the other problem is family unification, and that often falls apart after a few years. People sign on to commit to support family members who come here, and then after a few years, they don't want to do it anymore, and it breaks down. So these are programs that need to be fixed. Uh, these are programs, uh, that have to be monitored and audited. Could we do better? Of course.

I think it's very different when you're looking to bring in refugees and people that are, let's say, investors, or people that are bringing innovation, or people that are doctors or lawyers. People— we had a pretty good— I think still to some extent we have a good point system where we select for language and we select for the ability to set up here, and, uh, age and health and criminal records and all that stuff, so that we're only bringing people that we know with a very high degree of certainty these people are a net benefit to society, rather than just opening our doors and hoping for the best, right?

Well, yeah, you can't, you can't have, um, unfettered, uh, open, open borders where there's no, there's no scrutiny and no screening. You know, while we can be compassionate, uh, about people fleeing conflict zones, we still have to have a process of intake. And that, that has been, uh, a big problem because there hasn't been a kind of a, a concentrated effort to, to have a strong intake system, not just screening people before they come in, but what do you do with them once they're here? And, and that continues to be a problem. And our urban areas are paying the price, right? We just, we can't afford to, to really sustain it in, in the way, the way that's happening now, right?

So I want to go on to another topic that people are noticing quite a lot more, which is the increase in violent crime, specifically in Toronto, but it's happening all over Canada and of course other major cities throughout the Western world. Violent crime increased by over 50% in Toronto over the last 10 years, while the population only increased by about 8%. So on a per capita basis, a significant increase. So I can give very specific examples where it looks like the police are kind of stepping back or are not given the mandate to really enforce the law in an aggressive manner. But what's your take? Why has violent crime spiked so massively on a per capita basis?

Well, I mean, it depends how you measure it. I mean, we're going to have about 35 murders. I think there's about 35 murders last year, which is in Toronto, which is fairly low. Yeah. Considering Chicago with the exact same population has 400 murders. So on that statistics, Toronto is doing well. Where there's a perception that we continue to be a violent city, and people have a perception that there's violence, is when you— I mean, one reason is when you watch the nightly news, it's a regional newscast. So they're looking at violent crimes in Brampton and Newmarket and Ajax and Mississauga, but you're watching this and you think it's all Toronto. Why is crime going up? Well, it depends what type of crime, whether it's— if it's robbery, if it's robbery, assaults. Yeah, I mean, if it's, if it's robbery, uh, then, uh, clearly these are criminal elements, uh, who, who have been unable to kind of do the traditional break and enter because more people are working from home and home alarm systems are becoming, uh, increasingly sophisticated. So they go to other methods of, of, uh, of crime. Certainly carjackings, car theft is a real problem, and smash and grabs in retail. And then of course, I mean, hate crimes can be violent. Hate crimes are soaring through the roof. That's certainly one area where you've got a disintegration of the civility. And I'm not a criminologist, but You know, look, uh, the internet has an enormous influence, uh, on people. Some people are born criminals and part of criminal organizations and criminal gangs. The car theft, um, the car theft, uh, gangs are, are sophisticated organized crime, uh, groups, uh, that steal cars, uh, that take them up the 401. They're on the docks, probably in Montreal, and they're shipped overseas. And I get complaints all the time about cars being stolen right out of the driveway. Hate crimes, clearly part of that is the rise in antisemitism and the influence of the internet, and of course the Israel-Gaza War, and a lack of firm response to that, a lack of political will, moral clarity. The criminal justice system is dismissing a lot of the charges, and police are often timid.

So I just want to go back to— I do want to get into the antisemitism issue because that's obviously near and dear to both of us and is, I think, a canary in the coal mine for broader societal issues. But you mentioned that work from home has moved some breaking and entering to probably more smash and grabs, like assault-type burglaries. Do you, do you disagree that on a per capita basis violent crime has increased, or you just think it's kind of shifted? Like, really nothing's— it's kind of always been more or less the same, but it's just changed a little bit because of the nature of the way we live?

Well, I mean, I, I— my, my sense is that, um, is that as the city grows, and it is growing, it's, it's probably one of the fastest growing, uh, cities in North America, if not the fastest. It's increasing population based on a per capita basis will continue to have criminal elements and criminal gangs, and they will be a real challenge for police. And that's a segue into a truism that our police force in Toronto is extremely small. With 5,500 sworn officers on the street, it represents a fraction of what is really needed. At the minimum, Toronto needs probably 1,000 more officers on the street.

So why isn't city council, you know, voted, like, put that into the budget?

Well, um, a first or second year constable is $100,000 each plus benefits. So I mean, I think, uh, that, uh, the other levels of government should help be— help pay for that. Um, our police force has to do a lot of things that other police forces do not do. For instance, we monitor the, uh, the lake border, the Ontario— Lake Ontario border with the United States. Municipal forces are not designed for that.

Really? Wouldn't that be federal?

It would be normally federal. The other thing is we have dozens of consulates in Toronto. Once again, that would be RCMP, but Toronto Police are responsible for that. So those are just two examples in which our police force have to take on far more than other municipal forces, and they're quite small. To give you an idea on how small they are, I'll bring up Chicago again, which has the same population. They have about 11,000 officers and we have about 5,500. And 5% leave every year.

5% of the officers here?

Yeah, they leave. I mean, they retire.

Natural attrition.

They retire. Natural attrition. They retire. They go to other forces. They go to other professions. So they have to be replaced.

This isn't just my personal political persuasion, you know, speaking right now, but like probably the most at root, the most important thing a government should do, a municipal government should do, is law enforcement. And it's like, since we're spending so much money on all these different very nice things like, you know, housing refugees, it's probably better to put that money into law enforcement and in making sure the population is safe. Like, that, that would— I don't think you get much pushback from the, from the citizenry on that, right?

I mean, I, I would, uh, I would agree that that is the number one a responsibility of any, a nation state, a local government, a regional government, is to keep its population safe. I mean, that's, that's how, uh, modern countries came to be, uh, with fixed secure borders, uh, with a standing army, with a police force. It's to keep walled cities, um, it's to keep people safe. And we've always talked about, uh, increasing our force, but cost seems to be seems to be the problem. And yeah, I mean, if we didn't have, uh, the homelessness problem, maybe we could take those funds and put it into law enforcement. The other thing is that, um, our police feel that, uh, they're often undermined by the, by the weakness of the judicial system. Bail reform is needed, uh, many of the charges are dropped which police, uh, lay, uh, lenient judges give soft sentences. These are— it's all part of a puzzle, uh, that, that has not lived up to the expectations of our residents. And when we see people who have committed very serious violent crimes out quickly or out on bail, I mean, we wonder what, what is going on here? Whose Charter rights are we trying to protect? Are we trying to protect the Charter rights of the perpetrator or the citizen who wants to go about their daily lives in peace and security? The rule of law is based on consequences, right? Everyone's treated under the rule of law where you, you break the law and you are arrested and, and you will face the consequences. If people are not facing the consequences, uh, then they'll keep doing it. I mean, police complain to me all the time that when they arrest someone who, let's say, was breaking into a home or stealing a car, they're out the next day. And what do they do? What do they do to pay their legal fees? They go and commit another robbery. If I had my way, we'd add a transition into another 500 officers in the coming years and try and get up to 6,500 in less than 10 years.

So that kind of brings me to my next topic, this lack of— I like the way you framed that. There's a lot of crime that won't happen if people feel that they would face consequences. Of course, you can never solve all crime. There's always going to be crime. That's just the way human nature. But you can substantially reduce it by taking criminals off the street because most crime is committed by the same core group of criminals, right? If you take them off the street, you'll have less crime, you know, just naturally. And other people will be scared to commit crimes because they know that they'll face consequences. This kind of brings me to my next point about the explosion of antisemitism in Canada. It's been increasing for a number of years, but the trend has kind of spiked since the October 7th terrorist attack in Israel in 2023. It's so bad that now 70% of all hate crimes, any crime that can be attributed to some sort of animus towards a particular group, is directed towards the Jewish people, which only make up about 1% of Canada's population. And in Toronto specifically, antisemitic incidents have increased by about 200% over that time period as well. So, you know, what can you— what— why has that happened? Why has there been an explosion of this anti-Jewish hate?

Well, it's It's obviously a sad, disturbing, and frustrating part of what has happened in Toronto. Toronto is entering a dark period, heading towards the abyss because it's been unable to address the bigotry and hate. It's manifested itself in the shooting up of a girl's, a Jewish girl's school 3 times, the constant vandalism of synagogues. The firebombing of a Jewish-owned grocery store, the IDF, and of course the swarming—

which is called International Delicatessen of Food, not the IDF.

Yes, I know it is misunderstood. That is true. The swarming of Jewish-owned businesses such as Indigo and Café Lindoir. These are— and then of course there's a lot of online attacking of businesses where you put terrible reviews on Jewish-owned restaurants.

Of course, there's mobs that go through our neighborhood. We live in the same neighborhood.

There are. And then there are the mobs on the streets to intimidate and to harass. So the warning signs were all there. There would be these surges of antisemitism. There would be— you would see Al-Quds Day, which is a hate fest, which actually got permits from the sergeant at arms. And the speaker of the legislature when it first started. Those were eventually withdrawn. This is the kind of event that their keynote speakers would be Holocaust deniers, and one of their speakers called for the shooting of Jews, and the consequences are very minimal. Very minimal. And then you'd have— you've had surges in— you'd have it penetrate every element of society. So you would have it in Pride Parade where you'd have Queers Against Israeli Apartheid, which was just a racist smear that has no basis in fact. You would have this hate fest every year at these universities, Israel Apartheid Week, which is a disgrace that our universities are providing space to conspiracy theories and tropes. So all the warning signs were there. We fought about this in council constantly. And then of course came October 7th. And people forget that Israel was attacked on that day and 1,200 people were killed. I've seen, uh, much of the video, raw footage of that day, and it's the sickest thing you'll ever see. I've been to, uh, the Nova Festival site, uh, to Kibbutz Nir Oz and the Carr graveyard. And, and you come out of that thinking the depravity and the sickness of what of what occurred that day. And then you realize two things. One is there are people on the street who think it's justified, who think that there was nothing wrong with it. It was resistance. That's the next sickness. And the third part is the silence out there and the lack of universal condemnation of these mobs that have taken over the city. And I can tell you it's extremely frustrating. And I spend— I'm a city councilor, I should be working on city business, and safety is city business, but I'm spending 60% of my time talking to police, talking to political allies, talking to adversaries to try and get the city back to a place where it used to be respected worldwide, where it was a place where people could could come from all over the world and raise their family and live in peace and security, and that's no longer the case.

So I want to make a distinction between two things. One is, let's say someone got a permit to have a protest, even to saying vile things about Israel. I tend to believe that's their kind of, let them do it, freedom of speech, all that fun stuff. I'm a deep believer in that. It's very different when people are shouting, "Intifada now," or "Let's commit an intifada," or shooting Jews. That is actually, they're crossing a line into motivating or inspiring or trying to catalyze violence. That's something very different. So I want to ask, because you mentioned you've been having these discussions in council, what are some of those discussions about? What is the actual issue at stake? What is the political issue at stake from your position?

Well, there's two main problems among the political elites. One is there's a group who are scraping the barrel for a few extra votes. They think, uh, these protesters or mobs are supported, uh, by radical left-wing groups, uh, NDP groups, uh, unions, uh, groups that, uh, that are really there to destabilize the city. And many of them are, uh, are part of Antifa or neo-Marxists or communists and defund the police. Most of them could care less about the Palestinians. They are there destabilize the city. So the second, uh, the second reason people don't speak out is fear. And you've got a lot of fear out there. And a city with— that's, that's got fear penetrating society has little future.

So what is, what is the, the, the thing at being debated? Like, is it let's have these— don't let these people protest? Is it take— put the police to stop them off? Like, what is the actual Politically, should I take me like, what are you trying to— all right, to see change?

So, uh, behind the scenes you see an enormous amount of finger-pointing and blame. Um, when you talk to, um, uh, when you— well, she's said so publicly, this mayor hides behind the Police Act and saying she can't tell police what to do. You've got police hiding behind the Charter, and they do have to protect Charter rights, but they also have to protect our rights as well. Uh, you've got, uh, police, uh, pointing to the Ministry of the Attorney General for dropping a lot of the charges and the process for, for pursuing hate-motivated charges. It's a very onerous— it's an onerous task. We have to go through Ministry of Attorney General, and it's such a high threshold that it's almost impossible to successfully prosecute hate crimes in this country. So the federal government, uh, what's coming out of the federal government with the the recognition of Palestine and the raising of the Palestinian flag in these cities, they say that's a city problem, forgetting how it all started was this recognition of the state of Palestine, which has no fixed borders, no sitting government, no recognized capital. It doesn't even meet the definition of a nation state. Our prime minister slapped conditions on it. Those conditions have never been met. And this emboldens these mobs.

So I want to bring up two cases here that really, just as a Torontoer, leave the Jewish thing out of it for one second because it's a bit crazy. So the first one is what happened in the Eaton Centre about two weeks ago, something like that, where violent mobs that were nominally anti-Israel, they were anti-Jewish because they were saying explicit calls to violent action against Jewish people. They were doing multiple things. They took over these— which was a huge mall in downtown Toronto, and we'll put up videos for people to see this. What struck me about this is this, this is not an issue. That's not a particular issue of freedom of speech. They were trespassing, they were harassing, they were threatening, and the police did nothing. So that is like the first case. So it's happened multiple times. It's not the first time it's happened, but it was a reminder of the scope of it and the wanted— that there is no consequence. It seems like the police either have No will or no backing to do anything about it. And this has nothing to do with even the Jewish question, because the Jewish question with the fact that they're attacking Jews or trying to harass Jews, they're trespassing and threatening people.

Well, that's right. And I'd like to know where Cadillac Fairview is on all of this. They have security in the mall. We knew this was coming. They had advertised, the mobs had advertised to storm the center. No Boxing Day while bombs are falling or something like that. Cadillac Fairview has a responsibility to keep its mall safe. It clearly wasn't prepared for this, even though all the warnings were there. With police—

What can you expect them to do? I mean, their police, their security can't even have weapons, probably.

Probably. No, it's very hard to hold a weapon in this country, a licensed weapon, unless you're a police officer. And police, their approach to all of this is de-escalation. Separation, send everyone home at the end of the day, no one gets hurt, no one, uh, no one, we don't take sides. Um, just, just send everyone home and let them blow off some steam. Well, the flaw to that is they'll keep coming back because there's no consequences to any of it. I mean, how can you possibly have an approach of de-escalation, uh, on, uh, for going into its third year? Well, de-escalation is not working. Constructive engagement is not working. Strategic ambivalence is not working. None of these approaches are working. So you'd think, you'd think police would do a deep think.

So is that mentality and policy stemming from the police, or is that something from the political overlords, the mayor and, well, police commissioner?

They're not getting the political backing that they need. Uh, the mayor has been very timid. She should have put out a statement at least a year and a half ago saying enough is enough, uh, we've had it with this, you're destabilizing the city. She will not do that. Uh, I don't know if she's even on talking terms with Chief Demkiw. I don't even know when they meet. And, uh, and that's a bad sign. Now, we did have an encouraging, encouraging event, I believe last week or the week before, where the Solicitor General finally wrote the Chief of Police and said, would you please enforce the law?

Solicitor General from the, the province, from the province, who's a Progressive Conservative Party, not an ally of the mayor of the City of Toronto.

No. No, he wrote this letter. It was vetted by the premier's office, and the premier backed it up saying, look, we've had enough. Would you please enforce the law? Well, the response in police headquarters was not good. I mean, they got very defensive. They put their PR people out there saying, we've arrested hundreds of people and we've laid X number of charges. Change the laws. You want better law enforcement? Change the laws. But we all know the laws on the books are sufficient.

So that's a bit depressing. I'm— for those who are listening, I'm going to make this even more depressing because I heard about this story about a week ago, a couple weeks ago, uh, that I didn't believe. I frankly just did not believe it because it was so crazy. Um, a friend called me, he's like, did you hear about this story? I'm like, what? There's 3 ISIS-linked terrorists that were arrested about half a year ago, something like that, uh, for trying to kidnap Jewish girls. Um, they had assault— that machine guns or something like that, weapons they found in their house. At least one of their homes, they found a lot of weapons, illegal weapons. And there's credible reports, not confirmed because the courts have sealed this, that some of them have been released on bail.

I just—

I'm— first of all, as someone lives in Toronto and Jewish community, like, I'm not the type to say I'm so scared for like bananas. That is simply crazy.

Well, this is—

and I'm going to link to this story because unless you— the details are so— like, these are people that have— yeah, I'll leave it there. But I'm curious, please explain the story.

No, I mean, I, I had heard that at least one of them was let out on bail. These are dangerous. These are dangerous criminals who, who, if not stopped, uh, could have created an absolute massacre. In Toronto, and to have them on the streets while they're awaiting trial is outrageous. And it's these lenient judges who try and be even-handed, and it usually has terrible consequences. So if this is the revolving door justice system that they think is going to solve these problems, they're very naive. Because we're reaching a point where people have become numb to criminal justice system. They don't take it seriously at all. So yeah, I echo your shock that potentially extremely dangerous person or persons were let out on bail.

I do want to emphasize this because this isn't some low-level criminal. This isn't a mob that's chanting terrible things. These are people that have actively tried to kidnap Jewish girls. One, one was almost kidnapped. I remember seeing the story. I think it was in Mississauga. And she's— the only way she escaped was by screaming and fighting back. And luckily someone came by to help, or else she would have been kidnapped. And these people have expressed and have planned actual terrorist attacks in Toronto, and they have the weapons and the means to do it. And at least one of them, it's credibly reported, have been released on bail. I mean, I just, I, I can't wrap my head around that. I just, I just don't get it. It's not— let me say it differently, uh, Mr. Pasnak, like, it's, it's simply not— like, I know it's not your fault, obviously, but it's just not good enough to say, oh, it's a justice system. It's like, somebody needs to be, like, prosecuted, and like, whoever that judge is needs to be investigated thoroughly. What the hell is going on? That is insane. That's bananas. Putting me at risk and my family at risk.

It puts us all at risk. I mean, the, the attack on the Eden Center and, uh, and these, uh, disruption of the New Year's Eve, uh, celebrations downtown. That comes after these mobs, uh, jumped on the Gardiner, uh, blocked CN Rail lines, swarmed, uh, Union Station, swarmed the Scotiabank Scotiabank Centre. I mean, these are not Jewish strategic sites. They are trying to destabilize the city. And, um, and people have to realize that this is not Charter protected. This, this has very little to do with the Palestinians. Uh, it is, it is mob violence. Um, they even, they even tried to, uh, disrupt the, uh, Bloor-Danforth subway line. And one of our councillor colleagues went down to urge them on. I mean, that's how ridiculous this is. We have a crisis in the city, but too many people are blind to it and they don't see the gathering clouds. They don't see the danger we're in.

So why should you stay in Toronto?

Well, my position has always been quite clear. We came from all over the world. To Toronto. We started businesses, we raised families, we bought homes, we built hospitals and cultural institutions. Why should we be intimidated? We're not going anywhere. We have a right to be here. And I tell people, I include that in my speeches, do not be intimidated. But at the same time, most Jews are law-abiding citizens And where are the people that we supported in past elections? Where are the people that we donated to in past elections? Why are they so silent? Where are they?

Right. Yeah.

Where are they? These people who come up to Bathurst and Sheppard, if they were in the Gay Village or in Little Jamaica, they'd be gone in 2 minutes. They'd be taken away. And we know cases of that happening.

Right. That's exactly my point. When there seems to be a lack of political will to enforce a law when it comes to attacks on Jews. That seems to be clear. Because if the same thing at the Eaton Center happened, but they were chanting against any minority group, like against Black people or the LGBT community, I think that that would've been shut down very quickly. Or imagine there were just a group of white supremacist skinhead Nazi types that were just, "We hate Black people. Let's enslave Black people." Something as egregious as that, it would be shut down right away.

The phrase now out there is two-tiered. Law enforcement.

Right.

Right. And when I go online and I do my videos at Bathurst and Sheppard, and I clearly say this would never be allowed in any other minority neighborhood.

So given that civil society, through its elected representatives, through its police, are saying, Jews, we don't want you here, is that not the message that we're Proceeding?

Well, I mean, I don't consider these mobs on the streets to represent widespread public opinion.

But it's enabled by the politicians who are—

Well, I gave you the reasons why the silence is out there. To summarize, you've got some who are scraping the barrel for a few extra votes and some who are afraid. I mean, I've gone up to some of my colleagues and say, "Why aren't you speaking out? Why don't you put out a statement? Why don't you say this?" And I get these excuses, "Well, I don't really use my social media for that." "Well, it really won't make much difference." "Well, I don't think I should do that." Yeah, there's only about 3 of us who are speaking out on council out of 26 members.

That's very sad.

It's very sad, but the other levels of government aren't much better.

Right.

There's no one speaking out in Ottawa other than maybe some Conservative MPs.

Right, right. The Conservative MPs think—

Yeah, they're in opposition, they're speaking out. You'll get no one in the government benches speaking out other than condemning when there's an overt criminal act of antisemitism, they might condemn it.

Mm-hmm. That's like—

But would they send the RCMP into Toronto to help out? Look, the big job that the RCMP were responsible for was making sure the Italian Prime Minister's visit, state visit to Toronto, was safe and successful. And of course the mob showed up. Trudeau was in power. And they blocked the entrances and nobody did anything. There weren't even that many of them. And so you had 400 people inside for a state dinner and you had dozens of people trying to get in, including some of my colleagues where one was trapped inside, one was trapped outside, and the whole event was canceled. I mean, whose charter rights are they protecting? The mob or those people inside who want to have peaceful assembly?

Right. I'm going to switch gears here just because I think we have to address the housing affordability crisis here in Toronto, which again is a problem a lot of major cities face. Economists typically say that, you know, housing afford— affordable housing is usually 3 times the average income in a particular place. That's like the benchmark of affordability. If you're above that, it's not affordable. Below that, it's affordable. How they came up with that number? Good question. I don't know. But Toronto, we know, is about 10 to 12 times depending on what number you look. The average Torontonian income is about $80,000. The average home is about $1 million to $1.1 million, including condos, including the recent— the price drop of 20% that happened over the past year or so. So listen, is it— I always thought it's a matter of land, there's not enough land, but I think it's probably deeper than that. Why do you think housing has gotten so much less affordable, and what do you think are some solutions?

So it depends what you're building, but Uh, the land is where every building starts. Um, land in the city is very expensive and scarce. Um, although I have 600 vacant acres in my ward and we're building a city within a city.

Down Zoo, is that Down Zoo? Yeah.

Yeah. Land is very expensive. Building is very expensive. Materials are very expensive. The labor to build, the skilled laborers to build is very expensive. And to get a rate of return, these owners have to charge. If we're talking, I don't know whether we're talking purpose-built rental or whether we're talking condominiums.

Talking about condominiums and single-family homes.

Single-family detached are not being built.

Or even townhomes and all that stuff.

Very few townhomes. Some townhomes. Actually, you know, we're at a time now where a lot of the construction has has ground to a halt, right? I have a receivership at Bathurst and Wilson. I have a receivership on, uh, on Shepherd.

It's a great lot, Bathurst and Wilson.

It is, it's a very beautiful lot, uh, for $25 million, it's all yours.

I'll do for $18.

Well, you could— you can haggle with them. Um, you've got, uh, a big hole in the ground at Billy Bishop. They dug, they dug below grade, uh, it's been sitting there for years. And you got vacant land unbuilt and but fully approved in Bathurst Manor, the old Wilmington Plaza. So they're not building for the reasons I gave you. The land, the land is very expensive. Materials are very expensive. The labor to build is very expensive. Then they have to pay a whole series, although we're starting to defer and waive them, of various development charges and taxes.

Right. Which of all the things you mentioned, that seems to be in the control of the municipal government.

So, so we— there are certain programs that where it can be, can be waived. I think purpose-built rental is the most common. The problem when you do that, and it's good to get this stuff built, is who pays for infrastructure? Who's going to pay for the hydro, the water, the roads, the driveways? You know, if you can't— if you haven't got infrastructure to your housing unit, it's not much. It's not much and not much housing there.

So I think most people— I think everybody that's sensible agrees that there should be some development levies. So if you want to build something, you have to pay the city to put in the infrastructure. But the development levies have increased by, I think, well, just look at my stats here. They've doubled over the past 5 years and they've 10x'd over the last 15 years. That to me just doesn't make any sense. Why should it have increased so much?

Well, the city felt that they could raise money off the backs of developers.

Which increases the prices.

Which increases the price of homes.

Right.

Whether it be rental or condos or mid-rises or whatever. I mean, right now we're trying to peel that back. Maybe too late. The other thing is that what's out of our control is HST. HST does add a lot to the building materials costs and of course the cost of building a home.

HST is a sales tax.

A sales tax, yes. And there has been a move to try and get that waived. I think the province has waived the provincial component of that. On new builds. I'd have to check that to be sure. So there certainly is that.

Well, the demand, interest rates.

Right, I forgot about interest rates. So interest rates have been itching down, but still it's not low enough. You really have to get that interest rate well below 3% on your mortgage so that young couples can finance their homes. Right. And—

But lower interest rates tend to lead to an increase in prices because people can get approved for bigger mortgages. You know, it has kind of an inverse relationship.

Well, yes. I mean, people are overleveraged from what's gone on in the last 15 years. People have taken on half-million, million-dollar mortgages, and that's based on two big incomes in the household. If one person loses their job, that deck of cards falls apart. Falls down, and that's when an economy crumbles. So we do have a challenge in the city now, and it affects certainly land transfer tax because it's based on transactions. And if no one's buying and no one's selling, the real estate market freezes up.

That's another thing, by the way, which is in the control of the municipal government, is land transfer tax, which in Toronto is very high. And also the mayor, I think, proposed that there should be some sort of progressive land transfer tax. So the more expensive the house, the higher the percentage should be of land transfer tax, which I mean, like, they're just making— and that's cash, that's come out of your pocket in the purchase. Yeah, so that's a serious expense.

That is. It's important to remember there's two land transfer taxes, a provincial one and there's, and there's a municipal one. The, the mayor, which I voted against, put on a luxury land transfer tax. So she, she, she increased the percentage of amounts owing on, on homes $3 million and over. And taxing the rich strategies rarely work, especially when it's on something like real estate, which fluctuates with market forces. So I voted against that. I thought it was a bad precedent. I thought it would hurt the real estate market. It sounds nice on paper, but it usually doesn't have good outcomes.

It sounds terrible on paper to me. Anytime that we deal with progressive taxation, it's—

Well, let me rephrase my question. It sounds terrible on paper and it's terrible in practice.

Right. Okay, beautiful. Um, here's my last question, which is, do you have any message for struggling Torontonians?

Well, um, look, uh, you know, uh, we, we want everyone to be treated with respect and dignity. We want everyone to have a roof over their head and, and to be able to make a decent living. It's a big city, uh, it's, it's far from perfect. We have to continue to work to make sure that there's fairness in the city, that people get a fair chance if they want to work hard, and that those who are desperate, those who are homeless, they do deserve to be in a shelter or to get treatment, as I mentioned earlier, so that they're not on the street. It's not an easy thing to help those who are struggling. A lot of it is hard work. A lot of it is reeducating yourself, going back to school, making smart choices about your money, savings and frugality and investing. Sometimes that's not so easy. But I think if, if there was a city where you had a, you know, a fair chance, I think Toronto is in there. And I think, I think despite all the problems we're facing and the need for lower taxes and more affordability and, and infrastructure and, and operations that work, I think Toronto still remains a very desirable city. And, and that's why people come from all over the world.

Thank you, James Pasternak. Thank you so much for joining us. It's been a fascinating conversation.

You're very welcome. All the best. [MUSIC] [MUSIC]