Launching profitable digital products

And today I am joined by Veronica and we're going to talk all about digital products. Digital products are one of my favorite topics to talk about. It was the primary reason why I even started an online business in the first place. And today we're going to learn all about how Veronica built her first digital product, what she has learned after building multiple digital products. So I am really looking forward to this session. Veronica, great to have you here today. Thanks, Jeroen.

So happy to see you, Dari, again. We've collaborated so many times and I think it's wonderful that you're in Europe. I'm in Hong Kong. The audience is dialing in from everywhere in the world. So welcome everyone.

So Veronica, what was the very first digital product that you have created and what did you learn from that first time creating a digital product from that entire process?

Okay. So first let's maybe talk about the concept of digital products so that we're all on the same page. Because technically speaking, when I published my first books and they were self-published, I have it here. I love sharing my first little book. Didn't sell a lot of copies, but it's my favorite of all times. So there was of course a digital copy, right? So technically that is a digital product. But when we're talking today about digital products, I'm thinking more digital guides, courses, and things like that. So after self-publishing 2 of those books on Amazon, I decided that it was time to tackle the digital business and the digital products. As such. And so what I did was now that I've learned everything about self-publishing on Amazon, I know Amazon KDP, I had decent results on Amazon, ranking pretty well in my category and things like that. So my first product was about how to publish books on Amazon because that's exactly what I had lived in the past 6 months, which I think is a really great strategy if you want to publish your first digital product, but also in general is the approach that I've been adopting ever since. You learn something, you have your business proof, which in my case was books, and then you write about it. So I was all excited and I wrote this guide that was a digital guide called From Zero to Amazon Bestseller. It was very practical. It was very actionable. And basically the target was for new writers who wanted to publish their very first book on Amazon. So that was the very first one. And I don't know if you want me to tell you a little bit about how it went or if you have specific questions.

Absolutely. Absolutely. Tell me how it went.

So my expectations and my motivation was here and my results, they were rather here. So I think it's important to talk about the gap. I honestly think that the content of the digital guide was pretty good in the sense that I really wrote it from the perspective of Veronica from 6 or 8 months ago and what someone who was starting from brand new would need. So I thought that the concept was pretty good. What happened, and I think a lot of writers can relate to that, and on top of being a writer, I'm also an introvert. I don't really like sales, is that I barely promoted it. I thought if it's a good product, people will discover it and then sales will just come. And that was a little bit my, my hope. There was a lot of hope. And so what happened is that I didn't really have a launch plan. I didn't really have a pre-launch strategy. I really didn't have a sales campaign or anything like that. And back then I had just launched my newsletter, The Lemon Tree Mindset, and I had a very tiny audience. And even then I didn't really do a good job of just letting them know, hey, I have product. This is what it's all about. This is how I really think it can help you because I did. But to me, creating a product was one thing and really ignored the part of sales and marketing and branding and all that.

I think that's so recognizable for a lot of people that when you're excited about your topic, the creation of an education product, whether it's a course or guide, that's like the fun part, right? You get to share your knowledge and expertise. But then it's, oh, now I gotta market it and I gotta sell it and I gotta convince people that this product is right for them. When you discovered like, hey, I'm launching this product right now, but it's not really taking off as much as I wanted to, what changes did you make regarding marketing and how did you become more comfortable with marketing yourself, like marketing your product?

So that's a really good question because honestly, I think every single writer can relate. That you create a product, you're very passionate about it, you have it out there, and then you don't have traction. And so if you zoom out, then I think it's important to understand that gap. Why didn't it work? Of course, product, it could have been better. There could have been more actionable stuff perhaps, but I think the big gap was that I didn't really know about marketing. I didn't really know about how to sell a book, how to do a pre-launch, and And like that. And so what I started doing was actually learning instead of just creating and then pumping out content, which is what we tend to do. Because that's the fun part. That's what we love doing. I'm not a marketer. I'm a writer. I'm an author. I'm a creator. That's my stuff. Really focus on the other part. And if you don't like it, you can outsource it. But you can't just have hope as a strategy, as I did, because that doesn't work. And so. I started watching tutorials. I started observing what all the solopreneurs were doing. And something that I found very interesting is that even the biggest solopreneurs out there, even let's say Justin Welch, I actually just finished his course about Kajabi to creative. Even those huge creators and solopreneurs who have huge audiences, they do campaigns, they do Funnels, they have marketing strategies, not just because you have a big name, that hope becomes a strategy. So that was super powerful for me. And I want to mention, by the way, those who are watching today, I don't have at the moment like a webinar or anything in terms of how to launch your digital products, but actually Sinem does. And I know that Sinem is in this call. So hopefully, Daria, if you can put it in the chat, I think it's going to be a fantastic masterclass for people who want to learn how to not only launch a product, that's the fun part, but also make it profitable and how to have marketing and a sales strategy. So I think that's going to be a great resource.

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you for mentioning that, Veronica. It's tonight at 7 PM. So we are really looking forward to it. And I think indeed that whole aspect of learning how to also market your product, right? It's so important because you can, like you said, Veronica, you can create the best, most valuable course or guide out there, but if people aren't even aware that it exists or they don't clearly see the benefit in it because maybe the sales page isn't structured well or the marketing isn't done well, you're not going to make a lot of sales. And that's such a shame, right? Because you put in hard work and effort into creating something valuable. And I think personally, the power of digital products is that you create something really good, like once. And then it can actually generate revenue for you while in your case and in both our cases, Veronica, you're training for an Ironman, right? I think I saw one of your notes. It might've been weeks ago already, but that you were doing a bike ride, a long bike ride, and you had sales notifications from Gumroad coming in, right? Like it's stuff like that. That's just so cool to experience that what you have created, what you have worked for. Now does like part of the work for you. I think that's amazing.

Honestly, I think it's one of the best feelings as a creative entrepreneur when you create something and weeks or months after you create it, you receive a notification that someone on the other side of the world decided to buy your product while you're doing something else. And it doesn't have to be a huge amount, but to me that really signals potential and what's possible. when you have this nice funnel that is really automating sales for you. And for someone who doesn't really like the whole sales thing, like myself, it's really nice to have this system in the background that is doing that work for you. By the way, it's never 100% passive. You still have to be on top and make updates. So I want to be very clear with that, that it's not just once and then it's going, but you definitely don't have to be every single day with a microphone doing sales. I can either meet market.

Yeah, no, that's a really good point, right? It's like, it's never 100% passive. What I think is the cool thing is that if you build very simple funnels, simple systems that help you sell your product, you can simply focus on creating content, which is what most of us, I think, enjoy and make sure your content is like now linked to that funnel and present like your product as the next step, right? So in case. In your case, you might write about Amazon KDP and how people can get started with it. But if they want the full system, right? Okay. Then that's your product. It's presented as the next step rather than like, you have to go and buy it. No, it's if you want more, this is the next option to take. Now you have multiple digital products as of this point, right, Veronica? How many do you have? How many are you actively selling right now?

Actively selling, I have 3 and a half. The half is because the same course that I have for Substack growth and monetization, it did really well. And so I translated it into Spanish. So that's why. And so I have the How to Grow or How to Win on Substack. That's one. Then I did one for public speaking, not the skill of public speaking, but the actual strategy. If you want, if you're a creator, solopreneur, and you want to start speaking in public and monetizing that work as a new framework. So that was the second one, it's called Speak to Scale. And the third one was actually on how to launch your digital product on Gumroad, which is the platform that I use. So in all the cases that I described, I use the same framework. I learn a skill, I go through it, I make all the mistakes, my learning curve, and then I try to create a system so that other people can replicate that, whether they want to grow on Substack, whether they want to monetize public speaking or create a course with Gumroad. And that has been my strategy and it's what I'm gonna keep doing year after year because it's relatively easy. And one of the things that I wanted to highlight as well that I change in my system of creating content is that instead of having it as a one-off project that is outside of what you're doing, you can actually start to see realize it as you go. Let's take the example of public speaking, which is exactly what I did during a period of 10 weeks. Every week I published one post that was related to public speaking, how you build your brand, how you create your LinkedIn profile, where do you get your first public speaking engagement, how you set up your fee structure, how you sell those keynotes or webinars. And so after 10 weeks, The beauty is that whatever topic you are passionate about, you already have the raw material. It's more about repackaging and curating it. And so for those who are listening, instead of having random disconnected posts like I used to have in the past, you can think more strategically. Okay, next quarter I'm going to be talking about X topic. I'm going to have a structure. And then when you finish that period, you already have that raw material that you can polish a little bit. Repackage and then sell.

I think that's a very cool process. And what I really like about all of your digital products is it really came from that firsthand experience. This is what I have just done. And now I'm basically packaging your frameworks, your solutions into a product that now other people can follow as well. And I recommend this to our audience all the time because I hear it quite a lot where people are interested in building a mini course, building a digital product. But they're like, what do I teach? I don't think I have anything people would actually pay me for. And I'm like, probably if you make a list of, and it could be a large list, just as a mental exercise, like what are 20 results or outcomes or skills that I have learned over the past year, past decade, whatever, like in your entire lifetime. And also what are like 20 pain points, problems that I was once really struggling with. That kept me up at night that now I have solved for myself. And if you do an exercise like that, you'll have a bunch of ideas. And I think it's recognizing the fact that what if you're, you've been studying your topic for a while, automatically you might have something that's called the curse of knowledge, where it is, you know a lot about a topic. So automatically you might assume other people know about the basics as well, or that it's common sense or it's easy for them, but In fact, that is exactly what most people need help with, right? With the basics of a new skill. So I think really looking at your own life, your own business, your own career, what did I learn? What results did I get? What problems did I solve for myself? It's just a really good starting point for a digital product idea.

Love that. And in fact, even my first book, which is The Lemon Tree Mindset, it was exactly that. It was the lessons, the mindset lessons that I used to reinvent myself in the process of going from the corporate world to starting as a creative entrepreneur. And I was in the super early days, but I was honest about it. I didn't say, hey, this is the blueprint of a 10-year experienced entrepreneur. No, it was more, hey, this is my journey in 6 months leaving the big corporate world and how I'm starting and what are the challenges that I'm facing and what are some principles and mindset tips that I'm helping me that helping me. So I, you're absolutely right. Very often we think everything is a big deal until we do it. And then we do it and we're like, oh no, it's not a big deal anymore. No, it is a big deal. But very often we have this bias that because you know something now it's easy and everybody knows it. So very important to try to do this exercise of going back into 6 months or a year ago and everything that you have accomplished and Does that have value to someone else who is in that journey 6 months or 2 years ago? And that's where you really find the raw material that I'm talking about.

Absolutely. I see we have a few comments in the chat, which is perfect. If you have any questions for Veronica or for me about building digital products, selling digital products, just drop them in the chat. We would love to make this interactive. So let's actually start with Carlo. Carlo says, I think it would be helpful if you could give examples of people in other professions selling digital products that are about their knowledge. Other than growth marketing. Carlo, I totally get that. And actually, maybe as some context, my previous business that I ran for about 5 years was not about marketing or Substack at all. It was about productivity. So I had a productivity newsletter and I created about 9 to 10 mini courses, all tackling very specific skills and problems within the productivity niche. That's how I built my first business. And there's a lot of people out there just having a range of expertise, turning that into digital products. So this is definitely not something if you're only in the marketing space or in the growth marketing space, that is a solution or a viable option for you. Any skill that you have that other people would want to learn, you could turn that into a digital product. So just wanted to provide that as context. And I see the first question Carlo posted was, You said you use Gumroad as a platform to sell your digital products, but you mentioned you are only selling 3.5 products now. Do you have other products that you are selling on Gumroad? So this is a question for you, Veronica.

Great question. I have more, but your question was that I'm actively promoting. So these are the ones that depending on the topic that I'm talking about usually in my publication, I'm going to promote. So the one about public speaking, for example, 2 weeks ago I was in India. Mumbai in a conference. So I've been talking a lot about public speaking. And so the next natural call to action is my course for people who also want to become public speakers. Has nothing to do with growth marketing, by the way, has everything to do with developing the skill of public speaking so that you can monetize it. I do have other products that I published before, but the reason why I'm not actively promoting them is because they were not very successful. They were the first ones that I published back in the day. So I still have it there. One is the one that I at the very beginning of this call, which was From Zero to Bestseller. And the other one was on personal branding, which was a serialized course, let's say, that I had on Substack. And then I turned it into a guide. One of the things that I wanted to add as well is that I have found, and I'd love to hear your experience as well, Jerry, to give a little bit more context about digital products. We talk about it at this broad topic. I have found that there's a huge difference in perception and therefore potential value between different digital products. And what I mean by this is if I tell you right now that I have an ebook on public speaking, automatically your mind sets a value of what you think that's worth based on what I tell you, my context, and so on. If now I tell you that I have a digital course about the same topic and it's gonna have the same content, but it's a course, naturally we have this bias that a course is going to have a higher value than a digital product. In fact, than a digital book, for example. In fact, if you think about an ebook, I don't think I've ever seen an ebook for $88 or $99.

I know.

A course, you can have a course for $100, $200, $400 depending on the content. So I think that the perception is huge. And of course, a course is usually going to have more meat, but after seeing that experience, I'm not doing ebooks anymore. I'm only doing it. Courses.

Yeah, that's such a good point, Veronica, because it could be the exact same information, but packaged in a different format, like a course. And now you could charge 5 times as much for it simply because indeed the lens through which people perceive the value of digital products, like you said, like an ebook, maybe people are paying max $20 for it, right? Max $30 on the high end already. That's already on the higher end. But of course it's very common to have 50, 100, or even much more than that, but it could be the exact same information. And obviously, like when you add videos to it, it's a different learning experience people have, maybe watching the videos, going through the material. It's a different learning experience than an ebook, but your knowledge, the information that you're sharing could be almost exactly the same, but just packaged in a different product. I'm wondering, Veronica, would you ever be interested in creating a digital product around your big triathlete, right? Like doing a triathlon, for example. Would you ever consider something like that, or is that something you would love to just keep as part of your personal passion?

So that's a really good question. And to give the viewers today some context, both Jari and I are big triathlon fans, amateurs. I've been doing it for over 10 years and I'm actually going on my half Ironman this Sunday in China. So it's a big passion for me. It's a big hobby. I don't know if I would create one on actual triathlon because I'm not a coach. I haven't had any, I'm not an Olympian or anything like this, but I think the mindset of sports is something that is very valuable and you don't have to be an Olympian or have gold medals in world championships, be able to talk about it. And in fact, as a public speaker, one of the sessions that I have, and I have sold for companies, is an athlete's mindset. And I sell this to corporates for leadership, how an athlete's mindset and the principles of sports can really help you with productivity, with mindset, with leadership. So I think from that angle, it's something that I would definitely consider. And also, for example, my case, I'm already in my 40s. I have 2 young children and a lot of women, when we're in this phase of life, we want to find a balance. And I think that's a journey that I think can motivate many other women, like how you're able to still keep fit and grow a business and have children. So that could be another angle that I think could be interesting.

Yeah. The reason why I ask is also because over the past week, We had an application form where people could submit their publication for review and I would give them some mini course ideas in particular. And it was really interesting to see that a common pattern I could spot was people being multi-passionate and like, I have so many interests and passions. What do I actually decide to monetize? Because this is something we say a lot as well. Not everything you know or do needs to be monetized. Sometimes you could either just do it for your passion just because it's fun to you and then it can remain your passion and it can remain something you find fun. But what I really find interesting that you do is you do extract the lessons, the experience from, in your case, doing triathlons, doing an Ironman, and you weave it into you and your brand and your content, but it's not a product in and of itself. And I think that is really valuable, right? Where you do In that sense, create a unique angle for your brand and your product, but you're not turning it into a digital product in and of itself.

Yes. I, I love that point of how you can be multi-passionate, but still be cohesive because what I see with many people, they think that is either a niche or I'm going all over the shop, but I think you have to find ways to weave it in. For example, this morning, so here, by the way, Hong Kong is afternoon time. This morning I did a live session solo after I finished a track run. I took my daughters to run and then when we finished, I just went on camera. I did a live session. It was in the track and it was all about sports, but it was really about the mindset to be productive in a healthy way. I was talking about sleep. I was talking about planning your day. To me, that's completely aligned with what I talk about, about growing a sustainable business, because if you burn out, if you're not healthy, if you're not exercising, chances are at one point you're going to hit the wall. And so I try to weave it in, but always by trying to find what is the hidden link. And I think a lot of people feel very relieved when they hear that. It's, oh my God, I can talk about my gardening. I can find a way.

Yeah.

Maybe it's about patience and how you bring that in into whatever it is that main topic is.

Yeah. I love that. That's so good. I see we have a question from Elizabeth. I love this question actually. What advice would you give a beginner in creating a digital product? Say your top 3 advices. Maybe Veronica, you can start. I'll just follow and then we'll see. Yeah.

Yes. So the first that I would give is not to overcomplicate things. Very often we try to make it so complicated and have all these different layers. And I'm a big fan of simplicity. I'm a minimalist. So I would say pick a topic that you are very passionate about, that you can talk about for 30 minutes without a script and break it down into 10, 10 chapters. It can start usually from more simple to more complex. That's your outline out there. And then from there, once you have this very simple framework, what I would do before producing that product is actually test it in real life with your audience. So every week, and you can position it, hey, in the next 10 weeks, I'm going to be talking about Elizabeth. I don't know if this is giving you food for thought, and you can put in the chat what is your topic. Hopefully this is giving you some ideas. So you announce that you're going to do this in the next 10 weeks. I'm going to be talking about this topic. I would love to get your feedback. I would love to see how it's landing. So that allows you to have real-time feedback so that you can incorporate, make changes, and so on. Very simple. After these 10 weeks, you consolidate everything that you have and then you elevate it into maybe perhaps it's a digital course. If you want to add videos, for example, in one of my previous courses, I just added like very short videos, but my first advice would be to keep it very simple. And now, Gary, you have the number 2.

Yeah, I love that advice you shared, Veronica. Keeping it simple is really important. I would also say, and you touched upon this already, but if you do have an audience and it doesn't even have to be a big audience, right? But if you have an audience, That is a really good starting point for your digital product idea. So if you've been creating some content on Substack already, you can already spot like, hey, which of the topics that I write about get more engagement, more questions, more open rates, like, and overall my audience seems to resonate more with those topics. That is like a data point to follow. Like it's a signal of your audience already telling you. Hey, actually, this is something we're already interested in. Then following that up by making sure you get in conversations with your audience. That could literally be you DM them. That could be you get on a call with them. That could be you insert the occasional poll inside your Substack post. Also, you can get more information about what does my audience need and want? What are some of their goals, some of their pain points? Because then you can build the actual digital product that they are asking you for indirectly or directly. And selling a product is never going to be easier when you know it has the right fit for your audience. It's the thing they want and need. Yes, obviously you want to create something you find interesting yourself and that you could talk about endlessly, but it needs to have that match with demand basically from your audience as well. So don't just go and create a product if you're excited about it, but always make sure there's demand from your audience. That is something I would highly advise as someone who made that mistake in the past, right? Creating something I was excited about and then not really checking if my audience needed it. Then I launched it and it didn't do as well as I wanted to.

Beautiful. And I think it's my turn for the advice.

It is your turn.

People are gonna judge a book by the COVID and the same applies to a digital product. Little things like having a professional cover, for example, goes a long way. Or that landing page, wherever you're leading people. In my case, it's Gumroad. Some other people, it might be Kajabi, might be your own system. What are they going to see when they get there? And I think that first impression of being crystal clear on not the feature, no one cares that this is an ebook about public speaking. People actually want to make money by getting on a stage. So the benefit and really explaining how this is going to benefit them and how it's taking them from A to B and what are the outcomes. I do this all the time, not only for digital products, but when selling my public speaking sessions to businesses, it's always, this is the summary and these are the key takeaways and the outcomes, because very often we focus so much on product that we forget to put ourselves in the shoes of the reader or the student or the consumer and what's in it for them.

That's a really good point because especially as the, let's say, course creator, right? You've been working on your project for weeks, for example. So you know the ins and outs of the value of your product, but the person you are selling this to, you just have to assume they know zero about your product. Right. And most of them know zero about your product. So it's a completely different mental shift to make where, hey, yeah, you know exactly how valuable it is, but what if someone just discovered it? They just see the landing page. Does it clearly communicate the actual benefit, right? The actual value of your product. Veronica said that's really important. I see we have more questions in the chat. That's perfect. I think we're live for a few more minutes. One question is from Ed. The big challenge for me is to get eyeballs on my work. So Ed, yeah, that, that is really important, right? You need to get eyeballs on your work and the right eyeballs in particular. I think what really worked well for us in the beginning on Substack was to do a lot of collaborations. If you take a solo approach, just creating your content, that's great if you create really good content. But you might stay stuck in the void, right? Like publishing, feeling like your work doesn't get seen by anyone. Doing collaborations is the most efficient way to get in front of new audiences, right? So like we're doing now, Veronica and I, we're doing a livestream, right? So both our audiences are now on the livestream. You could do a guest post, you could do newsletter recommendations, you could do podcast interviews together. Like Veronica and I, a few months ago, we did a really good podcast. That both of our audience really loved, right? So doing collaborations with other creators, either in the same niche or like an adjacent niche, like close to your niche, that is really a good way to speed up the process.

I'm a fan of collaborations. I don't know if you want me to build on that. You and I have done collaborations between them. Yesterday I had a webinar with Erin from Nomad Lives with our joint community. So I do a lot of that. To be a little bit more granular, every month at the Lemon Tree Mindset, I have 2 to 3 guest posts where I invite people. The latest one was Gail, a woman who is 69, reinvented herself at 60. So I do a lot of that. And the beauty is that both creators and both communities are able to benefit and to grow. So I think that's a fantastic way to grow. And honestly, getting eyeballs on your work, especially at the beginning, is super uncomfortable. Like you have to be comfortable being invisible. I started on Substack 3 years ago and somehow the other day I was looking at those old posts. They had 3 likes and one was mine. And I think being comfortable with saying, this is a journey and it's going to take time and you post some notes and you get zero engagement. I think that's part of it. And again, now I have a much bigger audience and still this morning I was so not doing my live session because you always have to put yourself out there. And find new ways to add value. Last year, it was my first time doing live sessions on Substack, like for most of us, that was really getting out of my comfort zone for you as well, getting out of your zone. So there's no magic trick. I think it's really about putting yourself out there, collaborating with others, trying new things and being comfortable with failing because we're failing forward. And when you think about it in that way, it's okay. There's a lesson in here. There's growth in here.

I love that because that's, you might see us doing a livestream right now and having fun and maybe being comfortable doing it. But indeed, the first livestream I did, I was not comfortable. I was stressed out. It was uncomfortable to do. I was making a bunch of mistakes, but it's by doing that and by putting yourself out there over time, you get better at it. You get more comfortable doing it. And in this case, livestreams are actually one of the more fun things for me to do. So yeah, indeed be completely okay with the fact that it might be uncomfortable and that's part of the process. The follow-up statement from Ed is, I agree, but I think that for some niche areas, audiences may be small. That's completely okay. You don't necessarily, especially if you operate in a niche, you don't need a large audience, right? You just need to make sure that the people who are interested in that niche discover you and find you, even if that means you have a few hundred people as subscribers. That could be amazing if it's a very niche topic. I know that one of our clients, he has 2,000 subscribers on his publication with a very niche topic. Still, he's a Substack bestseller and he's selling his high-ticket offers because he doesn't need a large audience because it's a niche, right? But he's like the go-to person in that niche. So there's still the same principle applies, like doing those collaborations. at least get in front of new people, even if you will never grow to 10,000, 50,000 subscribers, you don't even need to if your niche is that specific.

And to, to add on that as well, the other question is, where are your readers, your ideal customers, readers, subscribers? Because they might be on Substack or they might not. And then the question is, where are they? For example, one of my found members who is called Charlie Garcia, who is my biggest success story in my community, just became a Substack bestseller with over 1,000 paid subscribers. He talks about finance and geopolitics, and his growth engine was actually from LinkedIn because he already had a big presence there. He had big authority, but completely disconnected. And so we talked about how we make that bridge from LinkedIn to Substack, and now that's his number one Channel. So they might be on TikTok, they might be on Instagram. I also, sometimes we think that it's small, but there are other places, other digital spaces might be.

Yeah, that's a good point. I see that Ed says, thanks for that. And to be fair, I am making assumptions and have not tried collaborations. Ed, it's really good that you own up to that. And the fact that you pose these questions in a Substack Live like this, because this is the exact way you discover what next. steps to take. Really appreciate it.

I want to share the most niche that I know in my premium community. She's called Holly and she talks about medieval history, not medieval history. I don't know anyone who is more niche than that. I think she became a Substack bestseller and she does communication, sorry, collaborations with other people who are not necessarily medieval history, but something related to history or art or something like that. So you can be very creative because the fact that it's a small niche It means that people are more willing to collaborate, is less saturated, so it's not necessarily a bad thing. I see it as an opportunity.

Absolutely agree. One last question, and then I think we've arrived at the end of the livestream. How much does it matter if you give people some sort of certification? Because people who take courses also need some sort of validation also in the work marketplace. Do you have any thoughts on that, Veronica?

I haven't, to be super transparent, I don't have certification of my courses because in my case, people, they don't really care about the certification. They care about getting booked as a speaker. They care about monetizing their course. They care about growing their Substack or whatever that might be. I think it might be more relevant if it's a certification that comes from an industry, for example, a coaching certification, something like that. So. Personally, and maybe it's imposter syndrome, but I don't think certification from Veronica is going to do much. I think the certification is, hey, this is the framework and you can get the results. So that's in my case, but I'd love to hear from you, Darian, maybe you have a different experience.

No, same thoughts. We don't offer like any certifications either. It's really like you said, the outcome that we promise, that's what we want our students and our clients to get. And that's like the certification. Maybe in certain fields, right? It might matter more than others, but I think in general, most fields, people care more about the outcome rather than the certification. So I wouldn't worry with it unless it's a very common practice in your particular niche or area.

All right.

I think we have arrived at the end of the livestream. We had 90 people here. I want to thank everyone for attending the live session. Veronica, thank you so much for jumping on the live and I really want to wish you an amazing experience on Sunday in China doing your Ironman. It's super inspiring that you're doing this.

Thank you so much. This was a lot of fun and I hope people enjoyed it as well and get some little seeds for their own business.