Cut Out The Middle Man | No Standing Zone Ep. 8

I am here with Jamil Davis and we are talking about the music business. How are you, sir?

I'm super well today, Wendy Day. And you?

I'm great, thank you. I've, um, I've been doing interviews all day, but now I'm the interviewer instead of the interviewee, so I'm excited about that.

Oh, I love that. Who, who were you— who were— who was— who was interviewing you?

Um, the one right before you was Forbes.

Oh, fire. Great. I love that for you. Absolutely love that.

Yeah, it's, it's the third time that we've spoken. I'm, I'm a huge, I'm a huge Forbes fan.

Mhm.

I read it. So whenever, whenever something, whenever somebody interviews me that I actually read myself, like NPR, I get real excited when NPR interviews me because I love them.

NPR is rare too, so So that's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that. So who was interviewing you there at NPR?

Marketplace. And I don't know, I don't know why, because I haven't done anything spectacular lately. Like, usually I'll do something big and I'll get interviewed. I don't know why all of a sudden people are coming to me. I think the Kendrick and J. Cole— well, not J. Cole anymore, but Drake beef is bringing out the mainstream media. So they're trotting out.

Mm-hmm. For sure. I was talking to somebody last week, uh, from Billboard, this guy Carl who runs their hip-hop. Um, yeah. And he's like, yo, I've been— he's like, yeah, Carl's great. He's like, I've been doing more interviews than normal lately.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, um, I've had people calling me too because, you know, I come from the '90s in hip-hop. So like Rolling Stone and Billboard called, they wanted to know about what the industry was like because they're trying to put Diddy in context. And I'm like, I've never worked with him, I can't speak on him. They're like, no, we want to know what the, what the, the, the vibe was in the industry in the '90s. So I've been doing a lot of reminiscing lately. Yeah. When did you start in music?

Um, like 2008-ish, '09-ish is when I got my first paying gigs. When I, um, when I got my first paying gigs was 2008, I'd say.

That's awesome. How did you start?

Internships and just meeting people and, um, being online on MySpace and, uh, being on MySpace and, you know, that's how people were discovering music.

Um, yes.

Well, that's how very much— or not, uh, yeah, I would say discovering music and then the easiest way to get in contact with people. It's the first time I think that you could get in contact with artists and their teams without having to like email a label, I think.

It's very true, and people would ignore emails. The thing that made like MySpace and even Facebook great is it gave you access to whoever you wanted, provided they would respond.

Right, and it gave you context to, it's just like a DM now. I can see who's DMing me.

Yeah, yes.

You know, instead of just a code, Email. Yes, it gives you context. That's like a lot of how I— that's a lot of how I choose. I won't say choose to who I respond to, because a lot of it is just how the message is, comes in.

Yeah.

And then if I sometimes if I do a deeper dive, I go to that person's page or whatever. But it gives you context. MySpace gave you— it cut out the middleman.

Yes, it did. You know, it gave you direct access.

It cut out the middleman and also gave the artists and their teams a way to, uh, cut out the middleman. It was the first, I guess, outside of if you had like a, a fan site, it was the first.

Yeah, or you bump into them live where they have to respond to you. It's like, hey, I'm so-and-so. Oh shit, you're in my face.

Yeah, right, right, right. But yeah, yeah. That's that.

I think it made it easier for artists too, like unsigned artists when they wanted to get people to listen to their music.

Yeah, because you could send it to everybody. I forgot. Yeah, you could also send your music to everybody and send your shows to everybody. And it was the first— I won't say the first, but the first massive D2C.

Yes. Absolutely. So when you started, how, what did you do? Like you said, you interned. Did you intern at labels or management? Were you always on management?

I interned at labels and publishing companies. But when I started, I was, um, I had like a, I was doing radio in college. So I had like a radio station in college and I had a MySpace for the radio station. And yeah. And then where did you go to college? In New Orleans. It was called Dillard University.

I know where Dillard is. I've spoken there.

Yeah. Oh, fire. Yeah. So I went to Dillard University and I, and I, um, yeah, I went to Dillard and I started a MySpace and that's how I was reaching out to bands.

That's really cool. Did you always know you wanted to be in music?

I think so. I didn't— I think so. Because I literally would think to myself, what else am I capable of doing? Yeah, just, it was just like, I couldn't see my— I didn't know what exactly in music. I knew like working with artists or something like that. But I just knew that was— I couldn't— I didn't— I didn't know another industry that I could be in.

That's really cool. Yeah, that's really cool. I come to it from the culture side. Like I was a fan of hip hop. Before I ever worked in it. And eventually I got to a point where I knew I wanted to do it. And like you, I didn't— like, there was nothing else I wanted to do. It was like this or nothing.

Yeah, you don't— because you think— because you got to look. See, I wasn't any type of scholar by any means, right? I wasn't the best student. So it was just like, what can I do to where I could just be myself? And then actually, and also enjoy what I'm doing. And it was like, oh, it's just music.

How did you end up in management?

Um, one, I always kind of knew I wanted to be in management or like help and talk to people. Um, but I ended up in management by my first artist I managed, this artist G-Eazy, which is how I know Katherine actually. Um, because she was G's publicist for a while. Um, and we went to college in New Orleans. He went there and I went there, and then we just ended up meeting in New Orleans. I had him on my radio show, and then we just became friends. And then—

so cool.

Yeah, and then it just, it kind of, uh, evolved from there.

So you kind of grew together?

Oh, for sure. Gerald and I, man, that's Yeah, it was cool. Like, yeah, for sure. Early on, I'd be like, damn, this is cool. I get to like, grow and learn at the same time. I get to grow and learn at the same time as we're all growing and learning together. We're all in college.

Yeah. Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah. And you're, you're still growing and learning together, because I'm assuming that you're still learning. Because I know I am, and I'm 100 years older than you are.

Oh, nice. I thought only like 1 or 2 years. I couldn't tell.

Okay, I love you for that.

Yeah, it's the sugar.

I'll pay you later for saying that.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Um, but yeah, no, yeah, you learn every day. Sometimes I got to remember, yo, like, every day is a day to learn. Again, I was never the greatest student.

Um, but you're really sharp. So you're intelligent. You may not have been a great student, but I—

yes, I was a student that it was like, Jamel's a pleasure to have in class, but he doesn't pay attention, right? So, so learning, so learning is a little bit tougher for me, you know, but it's, it's, there's, you know, it's important to learn every day. Sometimes I gotta remind myself to do that. Um, yeah, and I'm actually going to write that down. It's actually— it's so easy. Sometimes you got to write the easiest shit down and remind yourself.

Yeah, I have to put shit in my schedule to remind myself because if it, if it's not there, I'm not doing it. Yeah, I'll say what a great idea that is, and then a year from now I'll be like, whatever happened to that idea?

Oh, for me it's like 5 years from now, 6 years from now. I'm not there from many years back. Um, right. Oh, yeah.

At least you remember though. At least you remember.

When I remember, I certainly remember.

What is your favorite part of management? Do you have a favorite part?

Um, being able to add value. I love that in a way that being able to add value is my favorite part because at the— at— and, and value could be business-wise, value could be personally, value could be a connection, value could be, um, an outlook or perspective, you know. Value could just be being an ear, you know. So being able to add value that is appreciated and reciprocated. Yeah, that's my favorite part.

And you're really adding life-changing value.

Yeah, to those who want their lives changed and are down for the ride.

Yeah.

Because honestly, when you add that type of value to somebody, they're actually changing your life too. Because if somebody's life changes and you had anything to do with that, business-wise, one, you get compensated, but personally, um, I'd say fulfilling, filling.

Yes. Yeah. And I think fulfillment is really important because just the money's not enough.

I think fulfillment is like, as you get older, as you get older, and Michael, Michael, Mike, not Michael, Mike Tyson said this. Um, in an interview, he's like, you know, somebody was like, yo, look at this stuff, look at all this stuff you have, right? And he's, uh, he's like, yo, it used to mean something. At one time it meant something, but now the only thing that fulfills me is like making sure I'm happy and making sure my kids are happy. And as you get older— wow— as you get older, like, all the accolades or the money or anything that, that part, the physical part doesn't mean as much as the— because no physical can fulfill you. But it's like what, what you did to be able to afford the physical.

Yes.

Is the fulfilling part.

Is the fulfilling part. The journey.

Yeah. Yeah, because all the other stuff will come. God willing.

Yes.

Yeah.

You learned that early in life. That's awesome. Because you're pretty young.

Yeah, I learned that. I learned that. Well, I used to, I used to tell my dad, like, oh, like when new shoes or video games or any of that came out, and all my friends wanted them, I'd be like, aren't you glad that I don't want anything? Like, as a, as a high schooler, as a high schooler, I mean, as a kid I wanted, you know, toys and whatnot. But as a high schooler, as I grew older, there was nothing that I— there was no physical thing that I wanted. Um, I, I bought a house, which I was happy about. Um, but then, you know what's crazy? I had— I dreamt about that house and worked so hard to get that house. And once I got it, I was like, okay, it— I thought it would have some big filling, and it didn't. It doesn't, you know. And, and by the way, and that was the place to live. And I was already at a place of like, uh, I wasn't using the house to fill anything for me. Um, so I was already like at a place of somewhat peace. Um, And it didn't really affect me. I was proud of myself. But so then I say that to say like, there's certainly people who have certain holes in them and they get the— they get a— they think that the physical thing will fill that and they're even more disappointed, you know. So I was glad the house was certainly proud of myself, but I hope I'm not rambling. Does this get edited?

No, this is awesome because I was one of those people. I used to think, oh, I'll get the new BMW and I'll feel great. And then I would get it and be like, Okay, now what?

Yeah, no, but you know what's crazy? I remember the first time experiencing that, right? On my first tour. And like, they gave me a— I used to, before I went on any tours, I was like, yo, as soon as I get my tour laminate, a place on the bus, and the tour phone, which was a BlackBerry, I was like, I'm it, you know? And I got my tour laminate first, first day. Uh, I got my spot on the bus. And I got the— they gave me a BlackBerry, which was the shit at the time, and it did nothing. Like, I was like, oh, cool, this is the— it didn't do— sorry, it was cool to have, but it didn't do like—

it wasn't fulfilling. It was just cool to have.

Right, right, right.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get that. Were you born and raised in New Orleans?

No, I'm born and raised in LA.

Okay.

I went to college in New Orleans. A lot of times people think that I was born and raised in New Orleans, but I was born, um, I was born and raised out here in LA, which obviously I think helped me a lot with my outlook on certain things. Um, and I think, yeah, I think LA certainly helped. I'm always grateful I was born here and I didn't have to transplant here, you know, 'cause I know I can only imagine what it's like to come from another city or whatnot as an adult, you know, like I went as a college, but even though, even when you're going to college, you're going into a community. Sometimes if you come as an adult, and you don't have a footing or anything, it's like, it could be nervous, you know? You don't know where to go, where to start, or you don't know if you're going the right places to start, if you're on the right crew and whatnot. So yeah, uh, but yeah, I was born and raised here.

That must have been culture shock to go from LA to New Orleans. It's very different, much slower. It's—

it was— I, I wouldn't say it's slower. I would say it's almost faster. Yeah, certain parts of it. So, um, wow, I think certain places were slower, like where I went to school was slower, but the city was faster, you know. Um, interesting. For me growing up, um, I was always like a lot around a lot of different people and whatnot. So I think it— you know what, it takes a lot to shock me.

It does.

It takes a lot to shock me. Um, so it was a culture shock, but nothing I, I wasn't— I was still, I was still a teenager. So it was still developmental.

Yeah, yeah. You know, and it's such an amazing music city. So if you liked music and you went to New Orleans, that had to be like, just awesome.

It was an amazing fun city, which was the most important part for me at that time.

Gotcha.

Yep.

Gotcha. Um, do you manage other artists as well, or do you focus on just one?

No, right now, like, I'm looking for more artists to manage. Um, you know, so right now our roster currently is definitely more producers. We have some developing artists. I don't manage Gerald anymore, so I started managing him like 3 years ago.

Okay.

Um, so Um, yeah, so I don't manage him anymore, but it was— I still sometimes I go back and forth with management, right? Because management can be super fulfilling. There is a whole draining side of it when it's not like that, that one not reciprocated. It could, you know, you tell people, you, you seem— sometimes you hear people say, yo, management is not worth it, this and that. But I don't think that's I don't think that's true, because I've been in it when it was super fruitful, super, like, fun, and I still enjoy it with the right people, you know. And so, no, I certainly enjoy it, because I have a lot of friends who do it. There's always the brouhaha that comes with it, that comes with anything in life. But I certainly enjoy it. You know, I think in terms of equity, there's other ways to make money that—

Absolutely.

That that you're protected much longer. But I, I enjoy managing certain things. Like, if I can bring value to it and I'm passionate about it, I certainly enjoy it. If, if it's a slight bit inconvenience— and by inconvenience, I don't mean, um, normal artist craziness, because again, you know what you're signing up for— but if it's— I, I have a much lower threshold of what, like, I'm willing to deal with. At this point. And that's not because— that's not because of like success, that's not because of money, is because of peace.

I can't put a value on peace. It means more to me than anything.

Yeah, for sure. And that's not saying everything's going to be fucking woosah. No, like hakuna matata or whatever the phrase is, but it's right, you know, when something is, uh amiss. Yeah.

Or something just doesn't feel right. Or I don't mind the issues that are real. I mind when people are like self-sabotaging and then I have to clean it up.

Yeah, that is my, that's my, I think that's my main thing is the self-sabotage because I don't care who you are unless you're the biggest artist in the world. A team always has to fight for you. A team always has to fight for you. And it's just not a— it's never a great feeling to feel like you're fighting the world for your client and also fighting with the client, you know?

Yes.

And I won't say like fighting because again, like there's This— disagreements are healthy. That's how you get like certain points of views out.

Yeah, that's how you learn.

That's how you learn, you know. So it's never any type of, you know, my way or the highway, which I've been accused of so frequently of having that, that outlook. You know, certain times, you know, you're right. And yeah, I'm very much like, if you— this is my plan, and let's roll with it unless you have another plan.

Right. And it better be better.

Yeah. And you know what I'm saying? Like, there's just— yeah, but correct. Yeah. Are there— rounding? I apologize.

You're absolutely not. You're absolutely not. If you were, I would, I would jump in and stop you. No, you're doing great. Okay. Thank you. Is there a part of management that's more challenging?

I think the most challenging part that I've encountered with management is just having your client— I'm sorry, the most challenging part is when the client doesn't listen. You know, I think that would be my most challenging part. Everything else is like, uh, everything else is easy, whether it's dealing with promoters, everything else is easy. That's everything else is a part of the job. Like, I can't say anything. I can't say anything is more challenging. I'll say it was challenging when your vision and your client's vision doesn't align.

That's hard.

Um, yeah, that's hard because whenever I think, I think like, yo, how to maximize, you know, or how to create scenarios that help maximize what you have going on or what you don't have going on, but keeps you like somewhat relevant, right? And so I think, uh, wait, did you ask the most challenging part of the most difficult part?

Yeah, you're answering exactly what I asked. You're nailing it.

That's the, that's the most difficult part when it could be stuff so simple that, you know, will make an impact and the person doesn't want to do it. And not doesn't want to do it because I would never tell a person don't be true to themselves, right? You know, authenticity Authenticity is the most important part, but I will always encourage people like not to— I don't want to say get out of their comfort zone, but I say expand their comfort zone. Yeah, because I used to think, damn, how could this artist fuck this shit up? This is before I was in management, right? And I used to think, well, if artists just listen to their fucking manager, a capable manager, like everything could just go, like it could all be so simple. And then I've seen people who think they're just all so simple, you know? And by simple, I don't mean like there, we don't, I don't know what's going on behind the scenes with certain teams. I'm not saying it's all like rainbows and jolly, but there's just certain, things that, oh, this is smart timing-wise, they did that smart, this and that, this and that, you know. And so, yeah, but I, I, there's a, there's a few clients that I certainly love managing, you know, that I'm blessed to work with.

That's awesome. They make it simple, and, and it means that you love what you do, or simpler. Yeah, because nothing's easy. Nothing is easy. You know, we're, we're dealing with people, we're not dealing with widgets in the music industry, you know. We're not dealing with with cans of water or soda or bottles of wine. They're human beings that think, act, and feel. So yeah, it, it, it's, it's a walk in the park when everything is going well.

Yeah, for sure. That's why I always say it's all good until it's not.

Exactly, exactly. What do you, what do you look for in, in a client? Like, if you're, if you're looking—

it's for sure, it's for sure evolved over the years, right? Like, what I look for, different than what some of my team looks for. But what I look for is one, people who are persistent. And I realized that talent and potential is not enough. I realized that some time ago, and every time I like, I'm like, damn, this person is super talented. There's a whole, there's a whole, there's a whole host of things that have to work for it to go. You know what I'm saying? So I look for people that either check the boxes or there's a trajectory of— there's a— they might not be there yet, but they have all the ingredients that would eventually check the boxes should they move in the right direction under your direction. You know, I look for people who engage a fan base. That's super important. For me. I look for people who, who have a plan, or are willing to come to you arms wide open for a plan. Right. And then I just look for people who appreciate Yeah, because I— and below, like, I really wanted to say, have you found them yet? Yeah, no, for sure. I have, you know, so like, I know, I know, I know what, I know what that's like. Yeah. And so, but the thing is, it's under all of that, of course, the most important part is talent. You know, the talent is where it used to be.

It's not enough.

Right. Yeah. So nor should it be enough. So I also look for people who understand that their talent is just not enough. Right. And they're willing to look at their comp— their peers, and I'll call them competitors because this is a competitive thing, and are willing to do what their peers and competitors to the left and right are doing. And by willing to do, I don't mean do something out of like, yo, just cuz this person's doing that, you gotta do that. But understanding, well, if this person is doing it, um, and they don't have to because they're so massive already and you're not there, then there's no reason why you shouldn't be doing it. And by doing it, that doesn't mean doing it the exact same way. That means doing it, uh, in a way that's true to you, but still fucking doing it, right?

You know, yeah, I, I took that to mean an artist who's willing to outwork everybody, either outwork or outwork everybody, or outwork themselves, or outwork themselves.

Yeah, and there's something that, look, I have to, I have to, I have to remind myself that too, because sometimes I get in a slump of, um, feeling fulfilled— feeling— or sorry, feeling unfulfilled, or feeling like uninspired. Because it's important, like, when you find— when you have something that you'll give anything for day and night, it's nothing like that feeling, you know what I'm saying? Because then it's just like, oh, it's not even work, it's just fucking a mission. It's like, it's— you know what I'm saying? So yeah. But yeah, for sure.

Yeah, you're right. There's nothing like that passion that drives you. Yeah, because even when shit hits the fan, it's okay because you're, you're, you've got the passion and the motivation for sure.

Yeah, and yet, and because, and you got to have passion and motivation because in, in this thing, um, there might be years where you don't make any fucking money coming up, you know, so to do that. I mean, but that's like anybody starting off, you know, like 18, 19, 20. Even though the two— I didn't get my first check till 6 years— sorry, my first check from managing till 18, 6 years in.

Took me 6 years too. And then it took me 10 years until I could like really support myself, like till I was comfortable.

For sure.

6 years was just a check.

6 years was legitimately, um, a check that didn't have to just be reinvested.

Right, right, right.

No, like, I checked, that's like, oh, okay, cool. This is, this is the money to reinvest, and this is the money I got from—

yeah, exactly.

And then for me, I think it was the first, like, check we got.

That's awesome. Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, I also wasn't part of a, of a, of a company, and that probably played a role in it, but it was— it took me 10 years to get to a point where I could like invest outside of music, like where I could, you know, go to Paris for a week and not feel it.

I would— you know what, I took my first like not paid for European trip only 2 years ago. I've been going for like 12 years.

Yeah.

Yeah. And I was actually, you know, afforded the opportunity to not only manage but to tour, to tour manage. And so that like took me a lot of places. So that was cool. That was—

yeah, that's awesome. You know, where's the coolest place you've been? Do you have a favorite place?

Professionally or personally?

Either.

Personally, I think my favorite place is Costa Rica. It's this place called Santa Teresa, Costa Rica. I love that. Also, I went to Lake Como this past year for a few days. And that was beautiful. Beautiful. Stunning. Yeah, absolutely love that. Professionally, I think my favorite place I'll say outside of the States, um, might sound simple, but London is always fucking fire.

It is.

I got, I got a lot of friends in London. Yeah, um, it's a great city and it's a great music market. Yeah, like it's super eclectic and they're, they're smart. Uh, they're smart. Um, they're smart and they're like I— they're, they're, they're hungrier for— in my opinion, they're like hungrier for, for music. Maybe hungry or more appreciative. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know the term. Yeah, but they definitely appreciate.

I love that you're saying this because I just noticed this morning, right? I'm a little behind on my emails and I just noticed this morning how many emails I receive from the UK. That are music newsletters. Like, I was going through all the newsletters and I'm like, wow, like 7 of these are from London and none were from the US. I'm like, wow, that's interesting.

What, what are some of those you got from London?

Um, Music Ally, or is it Musical.ly? I don't know how to say it. Um, Midia is, is from London. Um, I have to, I have to go into my— I posted one this morning on my Instagram Uh, The Network, I think it's called.

Yeah, I want to see that.

Network Notes.

I'm typing those down.

You know what I'll do? I have your email address, if you don't mind. I'll forward them to you tonight, and if you like them, you can just hit subscribe, and if you don't, you can ignore them.

Oh, you know what? I'm not gonna hit subscribe because I can't afford one more email.

Fair enough.

One more message.

Fair enough. I get it. Fair enough. Yep, Music Business Worldwide. I'm sure you read their newsletter.

That's out of London-based though, is it?

It is. Doesn't that blow your mind?

MBW, right? I didn't, I didn't realize that. Yes, I realize that.

Yep, yep. I know, I, I knew that for a while, but today was the day that I realized, wow, all of these newsletters that I'm getting. And then I get Bob Lefsetz, you know, he's from California, but other than him, I think most of the stuff that I read is from the UK, and I didn't realize it. It's almost like they're more excited to share than we are over here. I don't know if that's true, but it feels like it.

Yeah, well, also there's so much like— I, well, I didn't know Music World was out there, but I don't know, maybe. Yeah, I don't know, maybe they— maybe the way they, uh shares differently. I don't know, but are more in depth.

Yeah, yeah. But yeah, that just— that hit me this morning. So are you more long-term vision or short-term vision?

Um, it depends. Right now I am— it depends on what— it depends on what— like, I think it's important to have a long-term vision right now. Until the long term. I think it's important to have the long-term vision up, and then, and then like once you have it up, then you figure out how to work towards that through a series of short-term.

I love that answer.

Yeah.

To get there.

Yeah.

You know, I love that. Um, is there any advice that you could give to like a do-it-yourself artist or an independent artist that doesn't have a manager yet? Is— are there any skills?

I was talking to somebody about this, that this morning, you have to— you got to cultivate what makes you— what sets you apart. And that comes through like growth and trial and error. But you got to cult— you got to— the best thing that you could do is, is, is accept that you're gonna need And this is just my opinion, and it might change as it comes out, right? But it's accept that you're going to need more than just your God-given talent, um, first and foremost, uh, because it's just not enough. There's people who are less talented who index in other places, um, So that would be one advice. Start building your brand as quickly as possible and try and build something cohesive. That doesn't mean everything looks the same, but start. You always got to think, yo, like, I want to build something that people want to be a part of. I want to look at this picture and I want to, I want to know more. You know, give something that gives people a feeling through your music, through how you present yourself, through how you communicate with your audience. You got to give somebody a fucking feeling.

Right?

Um, so focus on that, you know, in addition to other stuff. I would say— I want to say focus on that. I, I say make sure you remember that because that's super duper important. Um, um, advice, I think, always try and figure out a way to communicate with your fan base, you know. And fan bases are— they're small. But it doesn't matter. It could just go day by day by day by day, you know what I'm saying? Um, network, network, and not in a solely transactional way, but in a way that, you know, like, there's a lot of, there's a lot of artists and executives out there trying to get it, so you have to connect and expand your network. And always remember, like, it only takes one thing or two things to happen for, for a person's life— or sorry, not a person's life to change, but to be a catalyst for something to change, you know. And so, so I just say expand your creative community, network, um, learn every day. Be a good person. Um, be honest with yourself. Um, don't do drugs outside of weed. Um, and realize the opportunity that you have or that you're working towards, you know. Um, and find somebody you trust, whether it's a manager, whether it's a friend, whether it's a creative director, find somebody you trust and that you will listen to that person. Once they've earned your trust, that you have listened to that person to have your best interest and to push you, uh, to the place that you want to go.

That's awesome. Yeah, that's awesome. Um, my last question for you, and I don't want to keep too long, you've already been really generous with your time. Um, how do you balance your life outside of work?

Oh, for me that's not hard.

For me that is, so you're about to educate me.

Yeah, well, one, I guess it depends on how, how, how busy you are. Um, but at my busiest, when I was home, I was still good. I was just going to the beach every day, and I was writing gratitude lists every day, and I was, uh, and I was putting myself first. Not selfishly, but reminding, because, you know, a lot of times— no, you always hear, yo, the client is first. Um, which is great until you fucking realize a client could say, yo, we've, we've been together for 20 years or 30 years or 10 years. And we've had good times, low times, won awards, made millions or this and that, the ebbs and flows, and then be like, but I want to change, you know, and which is totally fine. Which is 1,000% fine, you know what I'm saying? And sometimes you as a manager need to change too. But as long as you put yourself first in those situations, um, and sorry, as long as you put yourself first, um, and by— and that's not in a selfish way, by the way. I, I don't, I don't mean do stuff that benefits you more than your artist business-wise. Again, trust is the crux, the the trust is the cornerstone of every relationship, right? But put yourself first in terms of like, yo, making sure that you got— you got— you could take care of yourself. Um, and this is something you learn as you go. This is something you learn as you get older. And obviously mental health is not that, uh— I won't say not as important when you're young because that's a complete— I don't even know why I said that because I'm trying to work out what I'm trying to say. But you're willing to do more younger, right? Um, you're willing to deal with more shit younger, which is great because that's when you're freaking fucking putting in work and when you should be going through the shit, right? But then just make sure that, uh, the balance has to be making sure you're okay, you know. Um, and knowing when it's time to— yeah, the balance has to be making sure you're okay because then, like they said, when you're on an airplane, you got to put your your shit on first before you—

Yes, you're obviously masking first and then the person next to you.

Yeah, you know what I'm saying?

So just know, if you don't, you can't help someone.

Like, you can't. You know what's crazy? It's so crazy that I used to think that— I, I didn't used to think or not think, but it was, I, it was— could you think of therapists as like somebody who helps people all day? And then or listens to people. And then one day my therapist was like, yo, I go to therapy. Um, yeah, I was reading a book and then, um, and you don't realize that, but it's just like, oh duh, it fucking makes perfect sense that, you know, therapist is a freaking person too. Of course they go to therapy. Yes, how could they? How could they?

Could they not?

Exactly, you know what I'm saying? So, um, I say put yourself first in the, in the least And I'm not even going to call it selfish because there's nothing selfish about taking care of yourself, correct? You know, um, but the balance has to be like, every day I go outside. I don't care if it's for 10 minutes. I go, I go to the beach every day. You know, I'm, I'm blessed to live right there, but every day I get my outside time, even if it's 5, 10, 20 minutes a day. I'm like, yo, I gotta get this because this is like my time, and I'm, and I'm a human and I deserve it. Like, why the fuck not?

Exactly. And it's very grounding for sure, especially in the water.

Another, another advice thing for balance is, is know that it's okay for balance. And that doesn't mean, that doesn't mean, yo, don't be obsessed. And that doesn't mean everything is roses and everything has to be, uh, balanced and don't like be obsessed and all that good shit. But no, like, at the end of the day, it's like, it's a job, um, and it extends beyond just a 9 to 5 or anything like that, which is why you have to extra take care of your fucking self, you know?

Right.

And, and, and you got to learn how to— you got to learn what those things are. Sometimes it might be journaling, sometimes it might be walking, you know, but But, but as a human, you're, you're, you are, uh, how they say everybody has basic human rights as a, as a citizen. You have basic fucking human rights as a human. You can never feel bad about that.

I love that.

Never forget that either, honestly. But it's a blessing. Like, that's what I got to tell myself every day. I'm just happy to be alive, and then You know, there's ups and downs and there's, there's super highs and there's super lows. Um, but you, you work every day and you just realize that you're blessed to do what you do and you get to do what you love. Yeah.

And so many people don't. So many of my friends don't love what they do.

Yeah.

And I'm 32 years in the music business and I don't want to quit. I don't want to stop.

And see, that's a blessing. That's a blessing.

It's a huge blessing, you know.

And that doesn't mean there won't be ebbs and flows, but at the end of the day, like, when you assess—

absolutely, highs and lows—

that's just like, oh, this is— I can't see myself anywhere else.

Exactly. Yeah, I wouldn't know what else to do, to be honest with you.

Well, yeah, yeah. Um, any more questions?

Is there— is there anything that I haven't asked you that I should have?

Um, it depends on, on who this is mostly targeted to.

It's targeted mostly to up-and-coming artists and independent artists.

Okay, great. Okay, in that case, okay, yeah, in that case, again, you already asked, but just network, meet great people, find somebody you trust no matter how long it takes, have self-awareness, um, Self-awareness is super important. Um, I know artists, some of the, some of, uh, I know creatives, I'm gonna call them creatives. Some of the best creatives I know are open to feedback. Um, you know, and, and these are like super great creatives, but they always want to know like, yo, how can I make something better? And that's like the best, that's the best type of person to be is how can I make something better? Um, And know that you're not— and this, this part might be hard because it might be— it's tough for me sometimes too, but know that you're not your product, you know. Um, and so because sometimes people— everybody has an opinion on something, you know. There's things that I think is super fucking fire and somebody might not feel it. And, you know, I put my heart and soul in a certain shit, but they don't feel it, it's as— that's not a reflect— that's not a reflection of me. No, you know, that's a reflection of the, of the— yeah, yeah. And again, like, people say, yo, this is not just a product, this and that. At the end of the day, if we're in the music business, we are selling a product, you know. Yes, um, a creative product, but still, you know. So, um, don't tie your value to that. Obviously there's a monetary value to that, but don't tie your self-value to that. Um, which could be hard, which could be fucking hard because this shit is like babies, you know. But be self-aware, uh, to artists, be self-aware, be open to feedback, have a good time, um, try and be as genuine as you can. And, and then always, uh, figure out how to connect with your fans because you might have great music, you might have shitty music, but if you don't have fans, you don't have nobody out there singing the gospel of whoever you are, and that's the most important part, right? I love that.