From DIY Shows to Rolling Loud: Ashley Ventura's Blueprint for Booking Success | NSZ EP. 16

Ash Cash!

Hello, Wendy Day!

Thank you so much for joining me. This is awesome.

Thank you for having me. I'm honored. This is great.

Where are you based? Are you in Florida? Do I remember?

I just moved to Miami. Um, I moved to Miami in October. I was in LA for the last, uh, 3 years before that.

Oh, wow. So you just missed the fires?

I did. I did. Yeah. Yep. I got over here. I started looking for an apartment in September timeframe. So yeah.

Oh, wow. Okay.

Yeah.

How are you liking Miami?

I love it.

It's—

it feels like I'm on a vacation every day. I have a pool, so I'm by the pool all the time. Get to work in the sun. I work from home, so it's— it's amazing. I love it. And everybody comes through here. All my clients either live down here or they travel to Miami.

Yeah, you can't not go to Miami, right?

Right. They're either vacationing or recording, or there's some festival or a conference. Yeah, always something going on. It's, it's honestly the new LA. Like, a lot of the industry has moved down here.

I love that. And you work for one of my favorite, um, booking agents in the world, which is Mac Agency. Yeah, Mac is amazing. Like, I was looking at the percentage. I'm a data geek, and I was looking at the percentages for the Rolling Loud bookings, and you guys had like 65%. I'm exaggerating, but you guys have Rolling Loud.

They're the best.

Huge percentage. Huge.

Yeah, we've, you know, as anything in this industry, it's a relationship business, right? And, um, my boss Andrew has, uh, kind of grown up with the Rolling Loud guys, and I wish I had developed a great relationship.

I wish I had a bell to ring.

Yeah, no, I'm, I'm honored to say that I love my job. I love the company I work for. I love the work environment. We all support each other. We all encourage each other. We hype each other up every day. It's like, all right, new month, new week, new money. Let's go get it. And yeah, so we just, we have a, we have a really great work morale over here. And I love the company I work for, for sure.

That's amazing. How did you get into this?

Wow. I've been in the industry since I was 19. I'm almost 33 now. So I started as a content creator. I am, yes.

Okay, so you need a line of facial products because you look really young. We should have—

actually, just— I just don't wear makeup. Uh, it's very rare that I wear makeup, so my skin is just always kind of naturally good. I'm blessed.

You are blessed. You look really young.

Thank you. I love that.

I'm sorry, go back to—

when I get ID'd now, it's like, really? Thank you.

Yes.

But, um, No. So I started as a concert promoter in Albany, New York. I actually started in the metal and the rock world. Yeah. I started booking at biker bars and local venues in Albany, New York. Shout out Albany, New York. Small town, about 3 hours north of New York City. So I started out just wanting to throw events for my friends' bands. Right. And just through networking, I was able to bring some bands from out of town and realized, oh, this is a business. I'm actually pretty good at this.

Very much so. Yeah.

And so I started booking a lot of shows over the years. I booked about 400 rock concerts all over upstate New York, developed my own business. And from there, kind of the touring part came a part of it. I always was on the road traveling on tours. My first tour I went on as a merch girl was with Biohazard in Canada for 5 days. So that was fun. I was 21 years old at the time. And so through being on the road, I met different promoters in different cities like Rhode Island and Massachusetts and Pennsylvania. And we started doing like show swaps where I would be working with a band from Albany and they'd be working with a band from Philly and be like, hey, I'll put your artist on my show if you put my artist on your show. And then from there I started learning how to route tours and started routing tours on my own. Actually, within my first real tour is an artist I still work with to this day. His name is Sully Had and he's out of, he lives in New York, New York now. And he's great. Great artist. He does well for himself. He still tours and draws tickets and does an amazing job. So I started booking a tour for him. And then from there I got picked up by an agency out in Sacramento, California. Commission only, just grinding, booking bands that only made $400, $500 a night and I'm taking a 10% commission. So I'm really only making $40, $50 a night off these artists.

But you're loving it.

Loved it. Loved it. Then the pandemic hit and I was out of work, so I moved back to Albany, New York. That had to be scary. Very scary. I had only lived in Sacramento for about 2 months. I had really just kind of started. Yeah. Had made a move out there. Yeah. So it rocked my world. It was a little scary. I went back to New York and I bartended. I bartended during the pandemic and just kind of stayed in touch with a few clients I had. But one person I did stay in touch with is Andrew, my current boss. I used to buy shows from him when I was a promoter. He's really one of the first agents that took a chance on me as a promoter in booking hip-hop. And so I stayed in touch with him and I was like, man, when I, when the world opens back up again, I want to go work for this man. Like, I really, really loved the way he treated his artists, the way he did business. He was just such a—

His whole energy.

He's just such a good, genuine human being. And that's very rare to find in this industry. And so I bugged the shit out of him. I would text him like, hey, when can I come work for you? When can I come work for you? And he hired me when the world opened back up again. I moved out to LA, took a chance, commission only. I said, fuck it, I'm going to do it. I know we're going to make this work. And 4 years later, I'm the lead agent at the company and we're making millions together. So it's Quite a process. Thank you. Yeah, it's a cool story. We, uh, it is a cool thing going over there. And from there we've grown. I mean, we're now a staff of 15 people. When I started, we were only about—

wow, I didn't know that.

Yeah, so we're growing fast.

Wow. Okay, who do you— who are some of the people you guys, um, represent?

Um, so I personally represent Sexyy Red, French Montana, uh, K Camp, Anisia, Sukiana. I have a really great diverse roster. My boss represents Boss Nandilo and DaBaby and Toosii. He's got such a diverse artist roster. So we have our pulse on the, what's the hottest in rap right now, to be honest with you.

Yeah, you really do.

And we're expanding too. We're getting into the rock world more. We signed a country artist named Raina Roberts, who's just, absolutely incredible. We love her. Um, and a band called Weston Estate that is absolutely crushing it in the indie rock pop world. Um, yeah, so we're, we're growing every day.

I love that. I love that. I, first of all, I love the new artists. Like, I love when new artists are coming up and you guys are always the first ones there, which is how you hit my radar. And I love that because It's— it traditionally, it's been hard for me to find booking agents for new rappers because booking agents usually make around 10% of the money. And when somebody's only able to book $1,000 to $5,000, as you know, you're not getting a lot of commission. So it's just a little harder to find booking agents. And I feel like you guys have a really long-term vision, like you look at the artist like, okay, I want to be with you for years and I see your potential. And I feel like you guys get that. Yeah.

I mean, artist development is what we're known for. Um, we find them early and we grow them, um, as a boutique agency that goes up against the bigger buildings. Like I like to say the David versus Goliath, you know, um, we have to show and prove every day and we have to be the first ones on it, you know? So, uh, we take pride in being, um, the first agents in on the ground and we build and we grow these artists. And, you know, that's how you develop that long-term career touring relationship with that artist is being there from the jump and building them the right way. I think that, you know, as an agent, it's kind of tricky. Like there's not a whole lot we can do for an artist until they can sell tickets, right?

Fill a room. Yeah.

Yeah. So it's, you know, if there's something we're really passionate about, we stay in touch. We try to bring opportunities. Like if there's a show an artist can pop out to, we try to, keep them close and do what we can. But the hard part is, is like, until they have a hit song and they can start selling tickets, there's not a whole lot we can do. We— once the fire gets going, we pour the gasoline on and that's when it starts to go. But, you know, we really try to build and grow with artists from the jump. You know, as soon as we see like something, we believe in it, you know, we're going to take it all the way to the top.

So I love that. Is there anything that an artist can do to get to the point where they'll be ready for you? I mean, obviously market and promote, but is there, is there any pattern that you've seen artists do particularly well that gets them ready for a booking agent?

Um, usually I suggest start with your hometown. If you can prove that you can sell out a show in your hometown and you've developed and networked in your area and got to know, you know, your neighbors know who you are, um, that to me speaks miles. Like, go rent out your local venue, 200, 300 tickets, sell that out, blow it out. That's going to catch my attention. Like, you know what you're doing. And it starts with that, starts with one show and building. And a lot, I don't know if people really understand the definition between hard tickets and soft tickets, but I'll speak on that for a second. Hard tickets is what builds your touring career as an artist. It's no matter what night of the week it is, you're getting fans off their couch to go see you perform. It's not a festival, it's not a nightclub where they're already going out. There's already a client base built in there. They're coming to see your show. So that's the most difficult thing to do, right? It's the ticket price versus how many people can fit in the room and that's what you get paid. It might not be the most appealing as a developing artist, but it's so vital and so important for an artist to start off doing that so that they continue to grow and build to that 6-figure number and be, career-long touring artists like Drake and Taylor Swift and Kendrick Lamar. Like, they can tour forever, right?

Um, or like a Tech N9ne who goes out twice a year, you know, he does the A cities, he does the B cities, the B and C cities, and he can tour forever, you know.

Um, his— because he built his fan base, he, he built his fan base the right way, and those loyal fans from day one that have seen him for years are going to continue to come see him for years. Yes, you know, so super important as an artist as they're developing is like, if you can sell tickets in your hometown, you're, you're ready to, to build your hard ticket business and keep growing from there.

I love that, that's such great advice. And, and one of the things that I always encourage artists to do is if they, if they can't get like a local promoter to book them, maybe offer a door split, like do some sort of creative risk Exactly, like some sort of creative negotiation that shows that you're ready, and hopefully you are.

You can't lose when you bet on yourself, right? You know, and if you fail and you don't, uh, you don't succeed with it, you know what not to do the next time around. It's all on you. So, you know, take the risk with the promoter. Do a door deal, do a door split. At least if the promoter is wary, is like, I don't know if you can make me money, because at the end of the day, it's there's so many artists trying to get booked. Yes. The promoter's gonna pick who makes them the most money. So prove, bet on yourself and prove it. And from there you're gonna develop relationships and you're gonna build a great relationship with that promoter. You make him money, you're gonna wanna, they're gonna wanna continue to make money with you down the road. So.

Exactly. And that relationship is so important, not just because you wanna make money when you're hot, but I've been doing this for like fucking forever and artists don't stay hot forever. If you've got a great relationship with a booking agent when your career is on a downturn, they're going to help you get booked because they're going to remember all those times that you were there for the— the booking agent's going to remember all those times you were there for them as an artist and were able to like work something out or do what's right or jump into a spot when they needed somebody to fill the spot. You know, it's the relationship that matters more than anything.

Absolutely. This whole industry, this whole game is a relationship game. You hear people say it's all about who you know. And in a way that it is, it really is. It truly is. As much as that sucks to say, but it's also the hard work does the talking too, right? Exactly. You're going to build those great relationships through your hard work and providing value. As an artist, you need to provide value if you expect value back. If you want somebody, just like if somebody is going to sign you at a record label, right? You have to be able to show and prove that that you can provide value and you're going to make that label money. Who else to say they can pick up the next artist? There's so many of them, so many artists.

Yes, and there's so many great artists.

So many. Yes, especially nowadays. Anybody can be an artist, right?

It's true. It's, it's a lot easier today than it's, than it's ever been. And in a lot of ways it's a lot harder too, because it's time-consuming with all the content that you have to shoot. Like, sure, I always say the artists have like 5 jobs. Jobs and making music is just one of them.

Yes.

So does it benefit an artist when they're coming up if they open for another artist? Is there value in that?

Absolutely, absolutely. I look at it as a marketing investment. You're— it's door-to-door sales. You're going to perform at a show in front of fans that most likely don't know who you are, and you're still— you have the opportunity to steal those fans. That fan base from another artist, right? You get to make those fans your fans too. So I look at it like door-to-door sales. Put your name and brand out everywhere. Have your merchandise ready. Do meet and greets. Get down in the crowd. Go talk to the fans. Fans will remember that night forever. You know, as you grow and as you blow up, it's so super important to put yourself in those positions.

I love that. I love that. Are, are there a lot of up-and-coming artists that promote their own shows like be their own promoter and like rent out a club or a space? Not a club, because at that point they're pretty small, but maybe rent out a space and invite people to come through, or their other artist friends to get up and perform as well?

Yeah, absolutely. I think it depends on where you're from, really. Um, do you have a great local promoter that's willing to work with developing artists to partner with you on it? And a lot of the time there isn't, so I have seen a lot of artists go and and do it themselves. I'm like, well, nobody wants to take a chance on me. I'm gonna take a chance on myself and show and prove and do it. And they do.

I love that. I love that. If you could talk to your younger self, what advice would you give to yourself coming up?

A lot. That's a loaded question.

It is, isn't it?

Yeah, I've learned a lot, um, over the years. I think it's super important to be self-aware when you're in this industry. You have to deal with a lot of different personalities, and I think you need to know yourself the most. So I would just say to believe in myself more. I wish I had believed in myself a little bit earlier. And I also, when I first became a promoter and I was lit in the city, nobody could tell me anything, right? I wish I had listened more. I wish I had maybe grabbed a few more mentors in my circle and absorbed as much knowledge, maybe tried different things, took some internships and tasted what I really liked and what I really wanted to do. Um, and I think I may have excelled faster in my career, right? Um, but everything happens for a reason. And I think that I've learned a lot of— everything happened how it was supposed to, and I've learned a lot of lessons. And right. Um, yeah, just believe in myself more, have confidence and learn and absorb.

I love that. You know, one of the things that I noticed about you when, when watching you, and this is from the outside looking in, you really went hard. Like, you over-delivered. And I think that that's a really important quality as well for somebody when, when you're trying to, to prove yourself in an industry, that you outwork everybody else. And you seem to have subscribed to that point of view. And a lot of people don't. For me, it's so basic.

Yeah, I definitely— that's key. It's outwork everybody else, right? But it's also work smarter, not harder. You know, I find that a lot of agents in this industry don't get a lot of face time with their clients. To me, that's the most exciting part of the job, is spending time with my artists and getting to know them as human beings, not just my client. Right. I've developed really great relationships with my artists and take pride in that. And I think that separates me from the rest and that I get a lot more work done that way. If I can directly speak to the artist and run things past them and direct management and I get things done faster and that loyalty stays there because I treat them like a human being and vice versa. Right. So, yeah.

Yeah, that's awesome. What is your favorite part of your job?

My favorite part, um, is, is, uh, it's the process. It's the process. It's, uh, sometimes that first hard ticket sold-out show is more exciting than when my artist gets to an arena level. Seeing that light bulb go on in an artist's eyes, like, "Oh, I get it now." After all that hard work of educating them and teaching them how this works and it's actually playing out how you said it was gonna play out, that's probably the best feeling. It's not about landing that million-dollar tour deal. It's not about that. It's about changing an artist's career, changing their mindset and you know, starting this path and this journey for them in the touring world. I think that's the best part.

I love that. I, I work with new artists as well for the exact same reason. It's not fun for me anymore. Like, once they become like a Taylor Swift or a Drake, yeah, the money's there, but it's not fun anymore. It becomes like answering the phone instead of planning what we're gonna do.

Yeah, exactly. It's the grind. And I'll say this over and over, it's the process, right? That's— it's so much sweeter when you get to that success when you had a struggle to get it.

Agreed. And so many people don't think of it that way. They think of, oh my God, I'm struggling and I hate it. It's like, no, you're gonna look back on this and this is—

you're gonna miss that feeling.

Yes. Oh, I missed that. I wish I could do that again.

Yeah. Yep, absolutely.

That is too cool. Um, are there any books or classes that somebody could pick up if they want to follow in your footsteps and become a booking agent?

Man, to be honest with you, I'm not a book reader. Okay. I will say though that one person that kind of changed my perspective and taught me a lot about how I do business is Gary Vee, Gary Vaynerchuk.

Yes, me too.

I was onto him early, uh, probably 2016 I started listening to him and I just remember everything changing for me, just the way I went about growing my business when I was a promoter at the time and even how I I looked at my relationships in life and expectations for myself. I would recommend listening to his podcast and his interviews. I'm actually on an interview from 2018 with rapper Russ and Gary Vee. I get to speak a little bit on there. So that was, I would recommend listening to Gary Vee. He's such a smart, smart businessman, but also just a good genuine human being.

Agreed. Um, that's one of the things that I learned from him. I learned that you can actually, like, speak your mind. And, and I'm— it's not that I'm a wallflower in any sense of the word, but I learned that you can just tell somebody like it is. You don't have to be politically correct. You don't have to, like, cushion it. You can just be yourself.

If it's black and white, it's black and white, right?

Yes.

Say it how it is.

Yeah, and that was a game changer for me because until then I used to kind of like, well, I don't know, I think you should maybe do it this way. Now it's like, no, if you don't do it this way, you're gonna fucking lose. And that's right, I learned from him, and thank God.

How can anybody argue with facts, right?

Exactly.

Um, I always say, especially like when I'm presenting two different tour deals to an artist and put it in front of them, like, let them decide. I'm gonna put in front of them black and white, um, show them the pros and cons of each and let them decide, you know, and I get the respect. I'm not going to sway them in any way of like, oh, well, I really think you should do this. I really should do this. No, I'm going to put black and white facts in front of them and let them decide. And hopefully it's the right choice that they make. And that's all an artist can ask for. And I think that they respect that more at the end of the day. They also respect when you tell them no, you know, just keeping it real and say, no, you're wrong. You're wrong. And a lot of time I say this, like, I live and breathe this touring stuff. You know, at some point you're going to have to trust me. You know what I do? I'm always going to have your best interest at heart. Let's, let's go and get this together. But let me lead you in this. And I think there's some kind of peace that comes with that too, is knowing that you can trust your agent to lead you in the right direction.

You know, I think you have to trust your agent because as soon as somebody thinks that you're just doing it to hit a lick, I think you lose respect and trust.

100%.

I love it.

And that's why I said that FaceTime with your clients is so super important, to let them see how you move and how you maneuver as a human being. Because it's a money game. It's a money game that we're in, and it's hard to trust people in that game.

It's very hard to trust, especially at the level— you and I seem to be dealing with artists kind of sort of at the same level, and there's so many people that took advantage of them coming up. So we're getting them fresh off some like like unique fuckery by the time— and, and we're doing right by them. And it's, it's just hard because they're, they're gun-shy. They're like, okay, everybody's taking advantage of me, why should I trust you?

Yeah. And that's my passion there, is like, is helping artists that maybe have been around for 10, 15 years and have been mishandled or mistreated and, and rebuilding them and, and, and helping them say, hey, you can still do this., right? Um, my, one of my first clients at Mack Agency was the wonderful K Camp from Atlanta.

And he's awesome.

Um, I'm now going on my 5th tour with him. Um, in the past 3 years, um, we have built it brick by brick together. Um, before he had oversaturated, maybe done too, too many club plays, um, didn't really build the hard ticket business the right way. And he, at the time I met him, he had been around for 12 years, right? So, but he's an artist that just consistently releases great music classics. Like he had been 5 times Grammy nominated the year before I started signing him or before the year before I signed him. And the first tour we did together, we were in the 500 to 700 capacity rooms. And now our 5th tour later, he's selling 5,000 tickets in Atlanta. You know, we're doing 1,500, 2,000 tickets in a lot of the Midwest markets. And he's finally getting that money he deserves and he's building himself as a long-term long-term touring artist. And I'm so super proud of him for that, that he trusted in me as his agent and he took the time to educate himself on how this shit works, you know. And we grinded it out together. Of course, we've made mistakes. We've learned what markets he's good in, which ones he's not, which one he has the, the biggest draw in. Um, and we fine-tuned it, and we got a great thing going right now.

I love that. Is it hard when somebody has a market where they're just not doing great? Is Is it hard to build up that market, or should they just focus on where they have fans?

So like, again, bringing it back to K Camp, like, you know, any kind of Atlanta artist or a Southern artist, it's kind of— it's very hard to break them into like New York. New York is a perfect example, very tough accepting of other artists that aren't New York artists. Um, and so what I try to do is, is put them on more support shows. It comes back to putting yourself in front of an audience that you might not necessarily be put on, right? And then steal those fans and make them yours and build from there. But yeah, when it comes to like the headline business, I'll stay out of those markets. I wanna make sure that every single ticket is sold. That's my goal. I'm not gonna put my artists in a half empty room. So it's all about strategy and knowing your artists and where they can sell and where they don't. But I definitely stay out of it and break them into it in a softer way.

Got it. Um, I want to ask you a question from a little bit of a, of a different angle. If somebody wants to become a promoter, how do they build a relationship with you so that you trust them to bring through like a national act?

Like somebody that's a brand new promoter that wants to start working?

Like, let's say I wanted to start promoting shows in, I don't know, Memphis, Tennessee, or wherever. Well, New York's a bad example but someplace like a smaller city, like a Macon, Georgia, or, yeah, you know, wherever. How, how do, how would a new promoter build a relationship with a booking agent so that they're a trusted— because everybody starts somewhere for sure.

Um, I would probably start them with one of my less riskier clients, um, somebody that, uh, is gonna fit that, that, uh, demographic. I'm gonna do some research on the market and make sure that market is good for the artist. And then first and foremost, make sure the money's there. I would require a 50% deposit upfront and then make sure that the artist is paid in full before the artist even gets there. You know, it's, as an agent, it's my job to protect an artist and make sure that they're always paid at the end of the day. So if I'm, as the agent, taking the risk to work with a brand new promoter, I got to make sure I cross my T's and dot my I's or else everything falls back on me. I have to take responsibility for that. So You know, usually takes some time building the relationship with the person, having a few calls, assessing the market, and, you know, taking a risk. Just like a lot of things in this industry, it's taking a risk, but a calculated one at that.

A calculated— absolutely. How do artists get paid? Like, what is the difference between like spot dates and touring in terms of how artists receive guarantees and how they're paid?

Um, you— do you mean more like how— what determines what they get paid?

No, I mean, um, although that's a— that's a— that's a good question too. But, um, my experience is when we're doing like one-offs, the artist will get half of the money sent to them when they secure the date and for the guarantee, and then they get the— the back end right before they step on stage. Yeah, but I know that that's a little different when you're doing a tour.

Yeah, when you're working with an agency, um, again, our job is to protect the artist but also protect the promoters. So we'll collect deposit from the promoter, we'll keep it in escrow at the agency. And then once the show is played out, we release those funds to the artist. Now there's different circumstances where sometimes there's a travel buyout and that can get released. But, you know, we protect our promoters, we protect our artists, and we are responsible for the artists getting paid at the end of the day. So say a promoter goes sour on us and doesn't pay, we always make sure that our artist is taken care of. We are responsible for that. And those promoter relationships are with us.. So we have to have a really strong, trusting, good relationship with promoters to work with them.

Got it. I love that you said that because I didn't, I didn't realize that. That's awesome.

Yeah, yeah, there's a lot of responsibility and weight on our shoulders as agents to not only protect the artist but also, you know, protect the promoters too. There, there can be a time when an artist doesn't show up, right? And, you know, chasing that money back if we had released that to them is going to be a nightmare and a half.

Nightmare, because you're not going to be able to get it back.

Right. And we have to make sure that we protect our promoters too, because we want to do more business with them in the future with— there's more than one artist that we work with. Right. So we have to protect those relationships is just as important. And me coming from a promoter background too helps me understand that a little better. You know, I have a little more empathy with the promoters and try to work on fair deals and make sure that they're making money as much as the artist is making money too.

Exactly. Because at the end of the day, it's a business.

Yeah, absolutely.

So how do you find balance between your work life and your personal life? Do you?

Uh, I'm bad at that, 100%. Uh, I'm at that point in my career right now, like you said, I gotta outwork everybody else, right? I'm in that building grind mode right now. Um, I moved down to Miami 4 months ago by myself, got my own place. We don't have an office down here, but I knew that this is where I needed to be. I just, I live, eat, breathe this shit. This is what I do. But this year I did take my first weekend off where I turned my phone off for 48 hours and I spent some time with family. Being in this industry, I don't have a lot of time to cultivate those relationships, like with my nieces and nephews and my sister and my brother. And trying to find more time to go visit family is something super important. Um, in this industry, you can kind of get your soul sucked into it, right? It's, um, it's all you can think about. It's, um, it consumes your everyday. It affects your relationships. So, um, whenever I get to feel human again, uh, is, uh, what is good for my mental health. So, you know, FaceTiming my niece and nephews and getting that FaceTime in is something that definitely helps with the the balance of it all.

I love that. I, I asked you that because it's the hardest thing for all of us is to balance our lives. And I come from a generation of pure hustle culture, kind of, kind of like what, what you're living.

I'm originally from New York, so I have that New York hustle in my blood.

It doesn't go away no matter what I do, same, whether I want to or not. And I'm married to my job, so you know, forget relationships. They just don't work for me.

For sure, for sure. And as a female in this industry, you have to be aggressive, right? We wear the pants in a lot of situations, and we have to be the leader. So, uh, you know, as a female who dates men, like, being in that relationship, I have to learn to be softer. I have to learn to be more submissive in a relationship, and that's hard to turn on and off when I'm aggressive and going out and brokering millions of dollars every day and having to be a leader. I have to learn to turn that off and have a switch, um, to, to make relationships successful. And that's something with being self-aware is like learning that about myself and working on that and, and, and learning to have that in a successful relationship.

I haven't learned how to do that. So when you figure it out, would you educate me?

Because I haven't figured it out completely, but I'm working on it. Work in progress.

Good for you, because it's, it's, it's the hardest shit.

It is.

It's so hard. Um, and the— I have two more questions for you. Um, the last business question I'm gonna ask you, um, I'm gonna ask you about your tattoos, so just know that's coming. Um, what one thing could an artist do, like, right now, like today or tomorrow, in order to help move their career along to get to a point where they can do more shows? And I realize that's a loaded question.

Yeah, it's a loaded question, but it's okay. Um, work hard, put out content, um, make hits. You know, you got— it's competitive out there. You know, if, if you find you're not the best at writing, team up with some writers, you know, and, and build the right team around you too. Like, there's nothing like picking the wrong people to work around you and it's slowing you down, which can set you back for years. Be selective in who you choose to be around you. I also always say like, if a manager, an agent is meant to be with you, you didn't pick them, they picked you, right? If you're a developing artist, you're like, I need a manager, I need an agent, I need this, I need a label, let them come to you. That's how you know that you've got the right, or at least close to the right, you have a better option in front of you. So I wouldn't say go— don't go seeking it. Just keep focusing on working hard and putting your music out, and something's gonna stick.

That is million-dollar advice. So really, having a hit record makes a difference?

Absolutely, absolutely. Um, when I discovered Sexyy Red, Pound Town had only been out for 4 weeks. I was the first agent in on it, but I knew that that was a hit. And sure enough, that was the song of the summer. We went crazy in the clubs all summer long, and she just blew up to a 6-figure artist very, very quick. But that hit is what did it. And little do people know, she was working for 3 years before that. Her label had signed her for 2 years before Pound Town even was released, and they invested in her and built her up. And so it takes time. It takes time. But once you get that hit, everything changes.

I love that she was a 3-year overnight success.

Yeah, right. As people want to say overnight, this shit ain't overnight. That's for sure. It is not.

No, it is not.

That's a sexy Sexy Red, one of the hardest working— yeah, sorry, sorry, shout out Sexy Red, one of the hardest working artists in the game for sure.

Yeah, I love that. I didn't know that about her. I assumed it. Um, I knew that she didn't explode overnight. I knew that she had really put in the work, but I also think like 3 years is fast in our industry. Like, she came up fast even though it was a lot of work.

Once it started hitting, once Pound Town came out, she did it the right way, you know. Um, we put up her her first headline tour alongside Hood Hottest Princess album, her big debut album that really gained attention. And she sold out her tour in 24 hours. We put it in smaller rooms, sold out in 4 days. We had to upgrade it and she ended up selling that out within a week as well. So she just really built it the right way. And she also did that tour 7, 8 months pregnant. She worked, she showed up every night for work and she did her job. So yeah, she's incredible.

Yeah, yeah, very inspirational. So I noticed you have like a ton of tattoos.

Yes, I do. Um, I, like I said, I grew up in the hardcore rock metal world in the industry, and that was just my surrounding. I worked alongside biker gangs and, um, promoted heavy metal shows. And, uh, growing up, I, I don't think I was very confident in my image, you know. I, I never really felt like I fit in. I was very insecure and Once I started getting tattoos, kind of built my confidence. I was like, oh, I look cool. I look badass.

You do look badass.

People say, oh, don't get a tattoo unless it has a special meaning to you. It's not about each individual tattoo, about what it means to me. I just like the way it looks on me, the way it makes me feel, and I feel like it fits my personality. I want many more. Many, many more. Good for you.

Good for you.

Do you have any? I don't. I'm a pussy. No.

Yeah, I'm a pain wimp. I'm a pain wimp.

As I get older, it gets worse.

So it does.

Oh, it's worse. Yeah, I've never used numbing cream, but I'm about to. I'm about to start using it. Really? Wow. I've toughed it out till now, but I can't sit more than an hour anymore. That's incredible.

Do you have a favorite tattoo?

Um, probably my face tattoo. Um, my friend is my tattoo artist, and Midnight, she was at my house and she's like, you want a face tattoo? And I was like, why not? And she Sharpied it on my face and then tattooed me late at night. And we did this in like an hour. It goes all the way behind my ear. Oh my God, that's beautiful. Yeah, I just think the way she placed it and the design she did, it just kind of makes my face look great. So yeah, she did a good job. Shout out Lace Tattoos.

I love it. I love it.

Is there one day, Wendy? One of these days we'll go together.

I don't know. I was, I was really close to Tupac, and when he passed, I was gonna get his face on my calf. And then I went to— I was in Miami, and I went to a tattoo parlor. It was during, uh, this is kind of a long time ago, right? It was during a conference called How Can I Be Down, and and I had been drinking, and I knew not to go having been drinking, but I was drinking anyway because I was really fucked up about him dying. And there was a guy in front of me in, in the tattoo parlor getting a tattoo, and he was obviously in pain. He was kind of screaming like he was not happy. And that was it. I let— I, I ran out of there so fast. Like, I was like, I'm done, I'm out. And I just never— I never went back. I never—

yeah, if you don't have a high pain tolerance, I don't recommend it. My longest session was 6 hours, but I was also 21 years old at the time. And now thinking about sitting for 6 hours, like, makes me want to vomit. Like, I could never— I couldn't sit that long anymore.

No, I can't even sit 6 hours to get my hair done, you know what I mean? It's like, it's like, no, how much longer? Like, I get my nails done and I think it takes like an hour and a half, and I'm like, after 20 minutes I'm like, okay, I'm done. Come on, come on, come on.

I'd be the same. I get it.

I'm so impatient.

Yeah.

Is there anything that I should have asked you that I didn't?

I mean, we could talk all day. I know what I love, what I do. I love the company I work for. I like to think of us as disruptors of the industry. Yes. If there's one thing that we do, it's always what's good for the artist. Always artist first. We're very artist friendly. At the end of the day, I know that I know that being a good human and doing the right thing by the artist is going to get me money in the long run. It's not about the cash right now. And it's proven, I've always had that mindset and it's proven to work over and over again. And so I just want people to really know that about Mack Agency is like, we're about growing and building superstars brick by brick and not taking the easy way out. Doing it the right way.

So I love that. I'm, I'm living proof that that works. If you just keep doing what you love and you do right by people, the money comes. Absolutely, it really does. And you're living proof of that as well.

I am. I'm doing well for myself right now. It's been a grind, man. I, you know, I have my parents— my, my parents gave me a college savings fund to pay off my student loan debt and go to school. I spent that on promoting shows. I I spent every single penny of it throwing parties and giving gifts to artists and traveling to festivals and doing what I can to network. And it's, it's been a long grind, but, uh, it's come back to me and it's paid off. That's your education.

It was your education. You, you lived it. I'm sure they're proud of you now, so good job.

They certainly are. Yes.

Yay! Thank you so much for doing this. I just— you're awesome.

Thank you for having me. This was great. I love it. Hopefully we can do it again and hopefully we can meet in person sometime.

I would love that.