How to Stop Losing Money in Music Publishing—Expert Advice from Mike Trampe | No Standing Zone Ep.13

So I would love to introduce you, Mike the Producer Whisperer. I have followed you on Instagram, I think Instagram and Twitter, for like forever, forever. And then when I got to meet you, I'm like, oh my God, you're so freaking cool.

Oh, thanks.

Really awesome human being. And then I found out we're from the same city. Facts.

Philadelphia, 215.

Yes, I grew up in Philly. Where in Philly are you from?

So I have a long history in Philly, actually. It goes back to my family. Um, I probably didn't even tell you this. No, my— so my great— my great-grandfather on my dad's side was the vice president of the Eagles, um, in '60 when they won the championship against Green Bay and helped, you know, build out the franchise. My great uncle's the only non-player or coach that's in the Eagles Hall of Fame. So if you go take the tour in the stadium, they have the whole Eagles Hall of Fame. His name is Jimmy Gallagher. That was my dad's uncle. So my family obviously was like rooted in Philadelphia, like we came up in Philadelphia, helped build out.

And apparently Irish.

Irish and German. So my mom's side is German, my dad's side is Irish. So yeah, it's absolutely that. Uh, but yeah, they grew up— when, when I was born, they were— my parents were growing up in, in, uh, Allentown. We were talking about this, I think, the other day.

We were.

They moved out to— I don't remember where, like the outskirts, like Willow Grove, that area. So I was born in, I believe, Abington Hospital, if we want to go really far back. So I grew up in kind of like that area, Warminster, out into like the suburbs of Bucks County, Montgomery County. And then before— I live at the Jersey Shore now, but before I lived here for, I don't know, 5, 6 years, something like that. I was in like the Northeast Philly area, Fox Chase, uh, Ron That's where I grew up. And then my wife worked in Mayfair, and so I was up and down that area. I actually loved living in that area too because I worked over the bridge in New Jersey with a friend who had a studio over there. So I would just go through the streets of Philly, um, and it was funny because I remember I saw Mad Ox out there. Mad Ox doing his thing out there in Philly because he was from an area that I would go through and seeing rappers that are, you know, established. That was pretty cool. But Um, yeah, it's, uh, so I've been all kind of all over the place, but now I'm Jersey Shore, South Jersey, still Philly.

It is, it is. I grew up in Cheltenham, so I grew up right near Foxchase, 19111. Um, I grew up right near there, and then, um, I moved to New York in— that you weren't born yet. I moved to New York in the '80s. I was born Were you?

Okay, I'm older than most people think. I have a, I have a young face. My dad's 72, looks like he's about 60. I'm 42, so I was born in '80. Yeah, some people think I'm under 40, but listen, I don't mind putting my age—

take that.

Yeah, listen, I'll take it all day. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead. I'm not to interrupt your story, I want to hear it.

No, um, so I went to New York for the weekend, uh, with one of my girlfriends, and I heard the Mr. Magic Marley Mall Show. And I looked at her and I said, I have to move to New York. And she thought I was joking. Within a week, I had quit my job, loaded a U-Haul, moved. I, at that point in time, I was living in, um, Center City and I moved to New York. That was in '87. I was 5. That was in 1987. You were 5.

Yeah.

And I just, I loved being there. Like the, the music scene was great. I did not work in the industry though till '92.

Okay, that's probably when I had my introduction to hip-hop. An older sister who got me into hip-hop. That's how I got into hip-hop music.

It's her fault.

Yeah, well, I guess now everyone's happy because they're like, whoa, you could actually make money from this? I'm just like, yeah, like, you know, when you're younger, that's a fad. Oh, it's just a— it's just a dream. Ah, it's a hobby. It's a lot of these things, right? But yeah, that's who introduced me into— I can't like— I can't say what was the first song that I heard, but It was around— if that was '92, you said? Yeah, I was like 10 years old, 9, anywhere between like 8 and 10, I feel like. Okay. I even remember hearing Will Smith on the radio, um, before Summertime. I know that. So it was before that record. So I think that record might have came out in like '92, '93. So somewhere around there is when I feel like I understood what hip-hop music was, being that young, and knew that I loved it. And then I wanted to have a life in it some way, somehow. And then it just escalated from there. So interesting. I love it.

And you live at the Jersey Shore, and I have a house at the Jersey Shore.

Crazy.

Yeah, I have a rental property there, and it's, um, it's, it's an interesting— it's an interesting life because my house is on an island, right? As kind of like, like you live, right? And in June, July, and August, it's packed. It's so crowded that I hate going there. Like, on Saturdays it takes an hour and a half just to get across the bridge from the mainland, which is Manahawkin, across the bridge, you know, to Long Beach Island. And then from September till really like the second week in June, it's like a ghost town. And in December, January, and February, most of the year-rounders go like to Florida or, or something like that. Yeah.

What it's called, right?

Yeah, that's exactly what it's called.

Yeah, I'm, I'm with you. It's, uh, it's an interesting place down here. And it's funny too because like over the summer or like any big holiday, like Memorial Day, Fourth of July, Labor Day, like the big shore holidays, like, yo, what are you doing for the holiday? I was like, nothing. Like, like, I have a house down here. I'm buying a bunch of food, grilling, chilling. I'm not going anywhere. Let everybody else go out there. And then when they all leave, like, that's when I— it's just too many people. Um, and that's something I really didn't think about before I moved down here, but it's not really a big deal to me because I get it all the time. Like, I've been to the state park and to the beach, everything in the last few days. I've been multiple times. I take my dogs. It's, it's great, you know, you can just unplug and just, you know, leave the music industry behind.

Yeah, it's not easy. Yeah, it's not easy to do.

It's not easy at all.

Yeah, it took me a long time to get there. We're going to talk about that in a bit too because it's something that when I was coming up nobody ever talked about. They never talked about anything other than hustle culture. So I glorified working 20-hour days, I glorified not taking vacations, I, I glorified outworking everybody else. And, and in a lot of ways it paid off because of my career, but where it didn't pay off was in my personal life.

Yeah, listen, I am in the same boat. And it's crazy too that I've identified this as being an issue since I was very young. So before I do what I do now, which I'm sure we'll get into, I Well, you may or may not know this. I think you do. I worked at Hip Hop DX, right? I worked at— I started all their social medias from the ground up.

Okay, that I didn't know.

Yeah, I built all their social medias from the ground up. That's really what gave me my real, I feel like, start in the music industry, so to speak, right?

What a great way to start though, because you got everybody was— you got from like a research reading point of view. That's awesome.

Yes. So, um, and you were a fan. Yes, so I got my start early on there. Um, I forgot what the point of me telling this now. He threw me off. I'm so sorry. What were you just saying? Then I'll remember. Sorry, and then you just threw me off.

I know, I'm so sorry, and I'm trying to remember where— what, what our tangent was.

Yeah, um, it happens to me all the time.

Okay, we'll just start a new tangent. Um, when you were— we were talking about balance, life balance and personal like, uh, hustle culture.

Uh, okay, we're back, we're back, we're back. All right, so the whole point of that was I was there, so I eventually started writing at HipHopDX, right? Articles, lists, wanted to interview people. So I had this idea, it was like, listen, hip-hop is all about— not all about, but a large chunk of glorifying negative things. Not sleeping, not eating right, doing drugs, drinking alcohol, all these things, right? So I'm like, I know everybody is not doing that. Who is doing things in a more positive way? So I made a list. I got Stickman from Dead Prez. I got Chino XL, RIP. 50 Cent, um, Trey Songz. I interviewed all these guys and I talked to them all about why there was not more positivity, health-conscious things within music. And I learned a lot of different things, but like something I learned, and I probably should have known this by now, but like talking to 50, like he doesn't smoke or do anything. Like he's a health nut. Like, and I'm like, wait, but you made the song I'm High All the Time. I smoke that good shit, man. He's like, nah, dude. Like, what? It's like, it's seeing like how he used it as a marketing vehicle to an extent. But a lot of these people are really doing it and glorifying it. So it always made me curious because unfortunately in my real life outside of the music industry, I grew up surrounded by a lot of the same things, a lot of drugs, a lot of alcohol, a lot of people getting in trouble. And over time, a lot of my friends dying, unfortunately, from drug overdose or violence or whatever it was, right? So it's always been in the back of my mind why, um, and it's something I try to bring to our roster here at Beastars Publishing, not to self-promote, but talking to our members just about how they're feeling, how they're doing, you know, and trying to preach better and positive things. Um, even when we go to camps and stuff, like, we try to do things with them that are more productive, and it's not just about being in the studio all night, like, getting high and drinking. And it's like, obviously, the day— we can't stop people from doing what they're doing, but there has to be a change, you know what I mean, at some point. Because it's like, this is, in my opinion, not to get too crazy, but it's like almost set up by design. Like, how do you kind of teach people to act a certain way, but then double down and like put it in a good light, like this negative stuff is actually beneficial when it's not. And everybody, for the record, everybody figures this out at some point, whether it's a graveyard, a jail cell, uh, just poor health, disease, um, losing friends and family, whatever it is, you're going to figure at some point a lot of the stuff that you've done is not going to equate to positive things. So I want to try to get it to these people when they're younger, because if we can teach people when they're younger, then it's easier to change that habit, I guess. So anyhow, like I said, we could go down a whole rabbit hole about this stuff, but it really all started when I was listening to hip-hop, got a job at HipHopDX, was talking to all these people on social media, just listening, watching, interacting, and being like, why is there nobody speaking out about this? But then I saw Stickman doing it from Dead Prez, and like, I saw guys and girls, like everybody doing this, and I'm like, I want to talk to those people I want to try to follow that. But even with that, I still struggle, Wendy Day. And that is part of being a human being. You can have the information and you can have all the know-how, struggle, but can you pull the trigger to change? And it's— I think we all go through that. It's just people don't want to talk about it. And it's not glamorous. It's not vanity. It's not, you know, you're not— it's not really a great thing people want to talk about. But I think we can change that landscape. I mean, by having this conversation right now, we are. It's—

I think so too.

I think it's about just talking about it. That's what like therapy is for, right? Talking. Yes, they're trained to do those things. I'm not saying I'm a therapist, but just to talk in general, I think could be very beneficial for people, um, in this space, especially now where COVID has happened and there's less interaction. And I saw a clip recently of Ill Mind, who I love. That's a brother. I've known him for, I don't even know, 15+ years. And he said something about the reason why like the artist producer relationship is— I don't want to say dying, but is kind of in not a great light— is because people are just not working together as much now.

You're not. Everything's shipping like, um, digitally, you know. We're not, we're not in the same rooms anymore.

It is. And people come to me and be like, well, you work at a company that has helped push that technically, right? I'm like, to an extent, yes. Beatstars, right? Beatstars Publishing, whatever you want to say, yes. But at the same time, I'm an in-the-person person. Like, that's how I grew up in a studio, work with people. And I always tell clients, like, even from both sides, people like, I only want to sell beats online, to the people who are like, selling beats online is whack. Both of them, I tell the same thing: do both. But you should have some people skills, right, and customer service skills at some point. Sell online, you have an e-commerce business, you have to have customer service skills. You're in the studio, you technically have to have customer service. You have to be able to build upon these things., to help grow your business.

But agreed, agreed, agreed. You've got it. You've got to have people skills. And I've noticed with some of the younger folks that I surround myself with, and to be honest with you, everybody around me is young. Everybody around me is 30 and under because right around COVID I said I'm only hanging out with people that are 25 and under. So now they're 30 and under.

Pick that up.

The, the younger folks are— it's like their, their arms naturally stay like this, like they're holding a phone even when they put their phones down. But they can't— they, they don't have the same critical thinking skills that we came up with. They don't have the interpersonal skills. Um, there's a lot of social awkwardness, and I'm very socially awkward, so I can't even be of help to somebody who's socially awkward because I've got my own issues.

You know, same.

And it's, and it's, it's amazing to see the changes. And, and there's this one voice in my head of my mom, you know, if, if I stayed in the house too long, she would look at me and say, go outside and play, go get some fresh air. And I never really understood that until now because I think, wow, look at all these like pasty-faced 17, 18, 19-year-olds that have never seen sun. It's, um, always on, you know, they're always on the, the game machine or inside with their phone, or, you know, they just don't— there's no communion with nature. It's, it's really interesting.

It's scary. Interesting, definitely scary too. I forget who I was listening to, uh, I forget who it was, a podcast. I hate not citing who I'm saying because it's like, who the hell is this guy talking about? But the guy is an amazing— he's an author. I think he might be like a psychologist or something, but like he talked about just like the developmental stages the brain. And like, this is why I wouldn't— like, at least I remember as a kid growing up, like, at one point we didn't really have cable or TV like that, so you went outside and played. And if your friends weren't around, you played with yourself, Paul. Yeah, you figured it out. You know what I'm saying? Like, I was throwing the football and catching it.

Yeah, balls against the garage door or the side of the house, remember?

So those types of things are actually very crucial from obviously what this guy was saying, and I'll try to get you the name before this goes live. But it was very interesting to hear. And that's like, I've talked to my sister. I don't have kids unfortunately, um, at this point. I wasn't blessed with kids yet. But my sister has 3 beautiful kids, and then my wife's, um, has nephews as well. So we get to interact, and I helped raise one of my nieces for a few years, and I'm very, uh, part of all their lives. So, you know, I take to this type of stuff, and I've talked to my sister about it, like, what do you think about this? And she's— she works in the healthcare field as well, and so she's very knowledgeable and you know, in tune with this type of stuff as well. Um, so yeah, it's just, it's, it's just, I say scary because it's just like, I don't know if that's a good thing or bad thing. To me, I feel like it's a bad thing because you want to be able to not be dependent on a device or dependent on an algorithm or dependent on a, like, I don't know. Uh, again, this is another topic we could probably go down a rabbit hole, but I think it is a very important one. I think it's at least something people should pay attention to, um, especially if they're older and have kids and what their kids are, you know, doing all day.

Yes.

Um, get out, go do something.

Like, go do something. Yeah, you know, I— you know, it's, it's funny though, I just, I just got like in tune with nature in the past 6 months. Love it. You know, um, and this comes from somebody that spent a lot of time at the beach as a kid. You know, I grew up at the beach, you know, near where you are now, and I I loved— I loved playing outside. I loved riding my bike. And then by the time I got to be like a teenager, I no longer liked it. And then that lasted for like 30 years, you know, 40 years, 50 years. It lasted a really long time. And just recently, um, I met a friend and he loves nature. He loves like just sitting by the side of water, like the side of a creek or the side of a river. And to spend time with him, you know, I join him and it's like, okay, I'm kind of getting this now. Like, I understand the value of taking off my shoes and putting my bare feet in the grass, you know, or on the sand or in the water. And it's like, okay, I get it now. But it took me a long time to really understand being at one with nature.

So I get a generation that's like, I'm not going outside, who cares, it's boring, it's like, what am I gonna do out there, just sit around and do nothing? Like, that's actually one thing I've never lost the connection with. I love it. I literally just got back from the Poconos. I get a house at least once or twice a year and literally just up there and hike. And then I, I started a fire at 2 PM and was done by like 11. Like, how— who sits around for 8, 9 hours with a fire? Wow. Literally just chilling and just— yeah, just listening, talking, and people would come in and out. Like, I was the only one out there, but it's also about like the ability to make a fire and like keep it going, and it's an accomplishment in itself. But I don't know, it's just—

it's—

it's— if you don't have the ability to like— just like I am at the beach right now, I can go and— I live by nature preserve too, so I see bald eagles every morning. I see all these different things. If you don't have the ability to do that at least make the time at minimum once a month, but even maybe once a week to go find something. There's something by everybody, even in Philly. Yes, random parks in the middle of Philly, uh, all over the place, and you can still get to them even if you don't drive. Like, I don't know, it's just, just to give people— because I know some people like, I don't have parks where I live. Like, just you got to find a solution if you want to, you know, find a change. So, um, that is one thing I'm actually pretty good at is nature. I walk every day. Good for you. I like to be by everything. I take my dogs every day. Yeah, it's, it's the one thing I think that's keep me sane. Me through this whole music industry journey and just, you know, life journey. Um, so I'm with you. Like, I'm glad that you found like your peace with nature again because, yeah, we all should. Like, we all are, you know, we all come in here by ourselves and leave by ourselves. Like, and in between, beautiful planet with— absolutely, you know, some crappy stuff that happens, don't get me wrong, but there's a lot of beauty in it. So that's, that's what I try to use to, you know, get through my days.

And I love that.

Push forward, you know.

So when did you start working at BeatStars?

Oh man, that is like the question everybody wants to know, and nobody really knows. It's a mystery. No, but so I met Abe in like 2011 when I was at Hip Hop DX. I left Hip Hop DX in 2014.

Okay.

Uh, I was there for 7 years, and I left to go work on a reality TV show which eventually got bought by BET. Um, and at that time I knew Abe and we were talking. I think I did like a podcast— not a podcast, like a videocast or something on LinkedIn with them and some other people, like a panel.

Yeah.

And then, um, when I left, I started working on this.

Awesome.

Abe is the man. Um, super caring human being. Um, but when we were doing this contest, we realized we didn't have technology like to like get people to submit. Basically it was like rap American Idol. Right? So, but we needed technology, so I knew Abe had built technology, so I had talked to them and we ended up kind of getting to know each other more through that and working together on that. And then he taught me more, or told me more about BeatStars, because we got to travel. We went to Chicago, Miami, Atlanta, we were all over the country doing these, um, doing these filmings for the show. So he would teach me about BeatStars and tell me about it, and like everything he was telling me, in my mind I'm like, I was still like, I don't know, like in the phase of like, I don't want to call it the industry phase, but like I'm just like, oh, that sounds corny, selling beats line, that's cheap. Like, you know, I mean, like, it just seemed kind of weird to me. But at the same time, why he did it, his values and morals lined up extremely well with mine. So I'm like, okay, well, there's something here. So the more I learned, and then I tried the product out, and obviously it's much different than it was back in 2014, but I tried the product out and I guess it's kind of cool. So that show was just one part of what I was doing. I left Hip Hop the Extra Star, my own company called Mad Management, Um, I had like, you know, DatPiff, uh, there was a bunch of people I had clients, right? So ended up Beatstars became one of my clients. So I helped build and grow their social media just like I did at HipHopDX. That's what I was known for, I guess, back then— social media guy. So I helped Abe do that, and through that we helped build the company, um, into what it was. And I think, you know, if you got Abe on here, he would definitely agree that social media you know, obviously his vision and the original designers and all that, and the developers, why it happened. But from the marketing standpoint, the social media side, and what we kind of leaned into, he will say was a huge part of it. And it was, because we were able to build a community of hundreds and thousands and tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, now millions of people around the world, and give them a fair shot at being paid and treated fairly. For their work. Um, so it developed over time. So obviously you do social media, you start talking to members, you, you get to know members, you hear their problems, you think about solutions, you build more products, you roll those. So it's an ongoing thing. And after years and years and years of being there— I mean, I feel like I've been there forever, but technically it's what, 10 years right now? It would be— is going into 10, 11 years. But full-time since 2016. I ended up shutting everything down with all my other clients pretty much in 2016, going to Beastars full time. But like, over that time, a lot has happened and I've been able to learn a lot. So that is kind of where the producer name came from, because that started as a whole joke, which is hilarious to me. Um, but now like everyone here at Beatstars, you know, if they can't get an answer, they come to me because I know the answer to majority of everything. And I'm not saying that as like an arrogant— no, it's just you've been there for a while. Yeah, yeah. And I take that and I want to be a leader, so I'm trying to teach these things to the people who are new. Because honestly, like, Beastars is a tough place to work, and in a sense of like, it's a tough place to work because we're not like any other company. And it's like, so I think sometimes people think like it's one way and it's really not. But then like, if you really buy into what we're selling— selling, um, like, you'll probably never want to leave because what we're really trying to accomplish, and we put our I don't say money, but like, you know, if we say something, like, we're— we do it, you know? And we truly want to see the creators be successful because Abe's a creator, I'm a creator, we're all creators, and we understand the journey. So yeah, so I've been there for, yeah, good 10 years, 2016 full-time. Um, and I've gone from, you know, obviously social media to the community director to when we launched our publishing division with Sony in 2020. Um, I took over being the director of the whole publishing department in the beginning of this year. So me and another guy Greg, Mateo built the publishing roster in 2020 out with Sony. We did a partnership with them. Obviously Abe was involved, but like me and Greg built it, signed people, helped people. Um, it's just, it's just developed. Um, I was just looking at our Musa report yesterday and we're at 102 billion streams, I think, as a roster.

Beautiful.

40,000 songs. I don't even think that's even close to everything we have.

Wow.

Yeah, it's, it's pretty insane. And from 2020 through—

that's so awesome—

2024, April this year, we did well over 2,500 major label deals around the world for free for our members. Um, and then we launched an official product. Yeah, so we've, we've learned a lot, and I think that's really what makes us different is that we just are hands-on and we're learning. We're in the mud. With the crazy. Yes. And we love what we do. We really do. Like, you got to be somewhat of a psychopath to do what I do.

People like, you've got to be nuts to be in this industry.

But like, if you saw the amount of stuff I get, people are like, how do you do all this? And I'm just like, I've had lawyers call me like, bro, I don't understand how you guys are doing all this. Like, you gotta— that's what I said. It's like, it's a tough place to work. If you really want to scale it and, and be the best of the best. Now with that said, I'm not talking about staying up all night. I go to bed every night at 9:30, 10 PM. That's awesome. Where I struggle still is food. I love food, so, um, I think a lot of us do, but like I'm pretty good with sleeping and turning the phone off. And me too, disconnecting. I've been— yeah, same with me. I've been— I've had a lot of friends within the industry pass away, but even before that, I've— you see the signs. As I said earlier, everybody is going to face point where bad decisions will catch up to you, whether you want to admit it or not, that's up to you. But they will. We're all human. So I've— you got to take a hard look in the mirror and say like, okay, well, is this the way my story is going to be told? Yeah, well, I don't have full control at the end of the day. Nobody knows. But can I help paint a better story? You know what I mean? So my biggest thing is like, oh my God, I want to help all these creators. But like, then I— my second voice that tells me to stay up all night and just fire through 30 deals. The next part of me says, well, yeah, that's great for now, but you will suffer later. But if you take care of yourself now, if— as long as, you know, obviously God has this plan for you, you'll be around to help more people. So I want to help more people. So you actually got to be a little selfish to the extent of protecting your own mental health and physical health to be able to help people in the long run.

It's still—

I'm not perfecting it, but it's, it's, it's a work in progress. We're all work in progresses, right? So that's kind of, so yeah, that's kind of the whole, that's kind of the BeatStars story from start to finish. Obviously Old Town Road happened in 2018, you know, that is really what— Lil Nas X came on the platform, bought a beat, buy one get one free, $30, and history was made. Yes, a lot of the people who were like selling beats online is stupid and whack and whatever are like, this is amazing, how do we get involved?

Exactly.

So it's, it's normal. Okay, cool. So, but you guys were building—

you guys were building millionaires like before that, you know what I mean? Yes, yes, yes, yes. Because you made it, you made it both fashionable and okay to lease beats. Because prior to that, there were other sites, but prior to that it wasn't really done, like it wasn't industry acceptable.

I think a lot of that— and this is more speculation, I don't really have proof of this— but what I alluded to of us being all creators— now I can't speak and say, oh, every person who built a Beat site wasn't a creator in the past, but I think there's just a little bit of correlation between us being creators us being tech savvy, us being street smart to an extent. Like, we have all these different things that can come together, and then like people from a community aspect can see that from afar, right? Yo, that dude's real over there. Like, whatever real means to you, like we could argue about that, you know what I'm saying? Like, they're transparent, they give great information. They're not perfect. Nobody's perfect at the end of the day. And that's something I always try to aim for, is like, I gotta make every person happy. Not gonna happen, I'll tell you that right now.

Yeah, I've tried, it doesn't work.

Yeah, exactly. So it's like, just do the best you can do be honest and transparent. Have we always been the best at that? No. Have we done it for the most part? Yes. But I think that a lot of that comes from that, you know what I mean? It's like we're, we're really understanding what these creators are going through. So it's— I think it's just more relatable. And I think, honestly, think that's why. And honestly, I think there's a little bit of luck in there. Like, I think we just hit a stride at a great time. Things were changing. We are ahead of the curve. We're thinking differently than other people. I, I think that's a recipe for success. Um, but don't get me wrong, those other platforms were great. I used to buy beats off of them because I used to rap. So I guess I still rap, you know, we're always an artist at the end of the day. But it's time, I'm really recording. But I would buy beats from some of these other places before BeatStars was around. So yeah, it's interesting, but I think there's a lot, a little bit of luck and timing in there. But yeah, definitely.

I remember when, um when Abe was about to start BeatStars, I met him at South by Southwest and he told me the idea. And I'm like, okay, first of all, fucking brilliant, but I'll never buy beats from BeatStars. And he's like, he's like, why? I don't think it was called BeatStars then. Yeah, yes, yeah, BeatKings. And, um, he's like, why? And I'm like, because I need exclusivity on the beats. He's like, well, we'll have those too. And I'm like, okay, cool, then it makes perfect sense. But I remember thinking, that's sheer brilliance. And then he took it and it exploded, you know, it just, it went, it went crazy. And I still only buy exclusive beats for my clients because if we're going to put money behind it, got to be exclusive. And, and that's just what it is. But it's, it's a great way for producers to get paid. Yeah. But I really want to talk about the publishing side, if you don't mind. If you could explain to, to all the wonderful people here, um, first of all, what publishing is and why they need somebody to collect their money for them, why they can't do it themselves.

Yeah, so I try to layman terms a lot of this stuff because I, I watch a lot of videos on a lot of things where I feel like information is great, but the audience isn't grabbing it, right? Meaning like, and it goes back to what I was just saying about having, I guess, like the, like the, the, the street cred, or the— not street, but like the street smarts, and there's just the understanding of how to break things down. And like, there has to be— you can't go from the corporate table to these creators, you gotta get it to them quickly. So the way I break things down to people is there's two sides to every song, okay? Master side, composition side. Master side pays more than the composition side, this is a fact. But the composition side, where the publishing is housed— and I'll go into a little bit further— is so important because, A, you're putting in a claim when you register these records that you are the owner. And once you claim that ownership, it is set up for life if you do it right. And there's no issues. We can get into that in a second too, right? If somebody comes along and uses your work— Wendy makes a song, right? Hey, I'm gonna take Mike's, you know, song from 10 years ago, it doesn't matter. I'm gonna put in my new song because I just love this bridge on this song, whatever it is. Guess who gets paid? Me, if I have the song registered. So the reason publishing, AKA composition ownership, is so important is because of these things. A, you get paid royalties off of them. B, you're putting your stake of ownership in for life. And 3, if it ever gets used again, you're getting paid and your catalog just grows. So obviously people know the master side, as I said, pays more. We know there's master royalties to get paid through a distributor or a label. We know labels have distributors. So the SoundExchange off of their neighboring rights, all these things that are on the master side But on the publishing side, there's basically a few different royalties that all can come from a few different things, right? So specifically what we're collecting as a publisher, we're mainly collecting the mechanical royalties off of these streams.

Okay. Okay.

Then before you can even work with us, I probably should have gone over this first. I skipped the step. Before you can even work with us, you need to go sign up with a PRO. All right.

Is that like ASCAP or BMI?

ASCAP, BMI, SESAC in America. You know, you go to, uh, Canada, there's SOCAN. You go to Germany, there's GEMA. UK's PRS. I mean, there's tons of them. I would definitely associate yourself with a local PRO. Um, I think it makes more sense. We are partnered with a PRO called Imro, though. It's an Irish PRO, but they will do deals with anybody worldwide. So we actually have it built in to our workflow. You don't have a hero, you sign up and they'll turn you a hero around usually in like 48 to 72 hours. They're one of the quickest, that's why we partnered with them.

That's awesome.

Yeah, so once you sign up with a PRO, they are collecting your performance royalties. Okay, your performance royalties are broken down into two different things: a writer share and a publisher share. All right, so Once you sign up with a PRO, say you sign up for ASCAP or BMI, one of the USA ones, usually after, I think with them, it's a couple weeks, 2 weeks maybe, you'll get an IPI number. And people are like, well, what is that? So I think again, the layman terms for this is think of like, if you live in the States, you have a Social Security number, right?

Yes.

That's how people know you're a legitimate human being and they can say, hey, this is a real person. So think of your IPI number as that number in the music industry. How can I identify your works through a number. This is the number. So you need this IPA number to do anything when it comes to the composition ownership. So you want to get that registered, get an account that's ready to go, right? So let's just say I have a song and I'm like, hey, I want to go register this song, I'm going to go register it with BMI. Okay, that's fine. You go and register the song with BMI, gets in through their portal, it gets accepted, and, you know, royalties start coming in. You're like, oh cool, like I'm getting all my money, this is amazing. So yes, you're collecting your performance royalties, and you— even if you only sign up for a writer's account, not a publisher's account, because like I said, there's two shares. There's a writer share, publisher share. Even if you just sign up for a writer's account, don't sign up for a publisher's account, they'll route your publisher share usually to your writer side. Now if you want to set up a publisher's account, you can. It costs a little bit more. Business purpose, LLCs you can associate. There's a lot of different reasons why you could set up a publisher's account for for business purposes, but you don't need one because they'll route it to your writer share. So you're like, okay, like, I'm good to go. You're not, because you're only collecting, as I said, performance royalties on the composition. There are other royalties, as I was jumping ahead— mechanical royalties, right? And that is the main thing that we are collecting at Beatstar Sony Publishing. There's other admins out there too, obviously, um, but We're similar to a lot of different admins, obviously, though we're using Sony system, which Sony is known to be one of the best publishers in the world, Sony Score. So on top of that, there's also sync royalties, which we will collect. So there are these things, right? So now let's say same thing, you sign up for BMI ASCAP, you get your IPI, then you're like, I'm gonna go sign up with Beat Source or whatever it is, publisher. You need that IPI number to sign up. It ties together that IPI and then ties it together with whoever the publisher is. In this case, it would be Sony. So what happens now is instead of when you register a record with BMI directly, instead of you now getting both the publisher share and the writer share, the publisher is getting the publisher share of the performance royalties but paying you out. You're getting the money, you're keeping your writer share, of the performance royalties through your PRO. They will pay you, and then we would pay you for your performance royalties, publisher share, your mechanical royalties, and your sync royalties worldwide. Every country that will collect, even some of them that don't even acknowledge we send them stuff— India, other places like that— they'll send money back. Takes about 2 years.

Um, wow, does it really?

Yeah, India is tough because they're not really— believe it or not, they're one of the fastest growing music businesses, but I've not really set up like— so in Score, just to give you context, like, and really for any publisher, you should have clear transparency into what your records are doing. So there's something in Score that's called Song Details Registration View, and you can pull your records one by one, and it'll say the name, and it has like a number next to it that's, you know, associates with in the Score system, and then a dropdown. And you hit this dropdown, and then it will tell you all— I don't say all, but a lot of PROs and societies, when it was delivered to them and whether they accepted it, acknowledged it, etc. So you can have an idea like, hey, I registered this song. Okay, well, what does this say? Oh, it says that BMI accepted it on this date. Okay, so you can kind of have an idea. So in that dropdown, there's no India, but they definitely send money back. Wow. Okay, very sporadic, um, when it comes to collecting. I know this because I have 3 to 4 songs with a few hundred million streams. Oh, and of course the people who are like, when's my money coming, Mike? You told me 6 months money starts coming in, it's been 9, I've seen nothing, or it's been a year or 15 months and I only see $1,200, then boom, $60 grand hits, you know. So it's very, it's very odd. But I mean, overall, these are the things you want to be collecting when it comes to publishing royalties. And obviously the performance side is, you know, deals more with live performances, a lot of different things, right? But the main thing that we're collecting, what I focus on the most, is the mechanical side, which can come from streams. Before publishers, mechanicals were paid off your distributor, so because it was more mechanicals coming from CDs and physical things. But when the streaming came along, it changed. So now publishers are collecting the mechanicals. So that is the main thing. And I'll give everybody an, uh, like an estimate, like, or not estimate, I guess, what's the right word, like a roundabout number, whatever. A million streams equals about $1,000 in mechanicals, give or take. The one thing you gotta understand about publishing, what I've learned just by doing it every day for 5 years now almost, it's unpredictable. If someone registered too much and there's a dispute, slows it up. If there's a country that's super slow, like I just said, India, it's going to take a lot longer. So these are all estimates, but that is a good way to look at mechanicals. So you're like, all right, yo, I got a song with 100 million streams, okay, that's $100,000 mechanicals. What's your percentage? 50? Cool, you got 50 racks. Really? Probably. Are there sinks? Uh, I don't know. Well, have you looked up your records? No. So that's the other thing with publishing too, and why it's unpredictable. I can predict mechanical royalties with that equation, but what I can't really figure out is somebody who releases— it doesn't have to be beats, but a lot of our producers actually release their beats on DSPs, and I feel every producer should. Hey man, I just got 10 grand in my account. Where'd this money come from? Well, let's look. Oh, this says it's coming from TikTok. These are micro syncs. What does that mean? Let's go find your beat on TikTok. Go find that music page or whatever it's called, the audio page of that. Dude, got 88,000 usages. Do you not realize every time someone's taking your beat through the music finder and associating with their content, they're syncing your stuff? That is what a sync is. What's the difference between Nike saying, you know, let me get your beat for my new commercial compared— it's just on a bigger scale, right? So there are sync opportunities. There are also producers out there who are playing the SEO game, and they are playing it. I think a lot of it's luck, but they're playing and they're able to get sounds that they're curating. They're all original, real work, but able to distribute it and use SEO tactics where it's like— give you an example— like a coffee, I don't know, Everybody's in the morning getting their coffee on TikTok or Instagram Reels, and they're like, oh, let me take a picture of me drinking my coffee. Like, oh, I need music. What are they gonna do? Coffee. Boom, beat jumps up. They associate that beat with, with it. So people are playing SEO tactics with some of this stuff. Now, I'm not saying go do that, but what I'm saying is it's not just also about streams when it comes to composition and publishing. It— there are opportunities of these things being micro-synced on these platforms. That you can actually build out businesses this way, or at least add on to what you're doing. And then obviously if you get syncs in general, like we have, you know, one song that was huge, it was on radio, it was doing really, really well. And I told the guy, you know, like, dude, like 6 months give or take. This is what I tell everyone, 6 months give or take till you start seeing money come in, right?

Hmm.

Like a month, month and a half in, he's like, bro, I got $30,000 in my account. I'm like, yeah, remember those? Remember you got to sing for this, sing for that? He's like, yeah, but you said— I'm like, yeah, but they're just dropping that money in there. So you could technically have pub and have money in your account, like, I'm not gonna say immediately, but pretty like quickly. But when it comes to like the actual collection, North America is paying out quickest when it comes to streams. Canada, you know, USA, Canada, UK is pretty quick. When you get into like India, Turkey, even a lot of Latin America, it's much slower. Um, so it's, um, it's interesting. Like, I try to like paint these pictures for people to have an understanding of like timetables, money that could be out there, but also thinking about the usages that people are not talking about and not thinking about and why it's important to register all your records because you just don't know. And that's the other thing too. Like take that example I gave earlier of you have a song, right? And it, and it, it maybe it's like, doesn't do that great. Maybe it just does okay. But like, I'm gonna take like a drastic approach here. Like Drake just is surfing the web one night and, or shit, Eminem. Cause I know Eminem searches YouTube a lot. Searches and somehow comes across your song, is like, I want to incorporate that into my new song because I love whatever. Again, right, you're getting paid off of that. You're getting paid off of that. So it's just, I don't know, it's just, it's super important to register these records. And because if you don't register them and that situation does happen, they don't try— they're not— if they can't track you down, you're not getting paid.

You're not getting paid.

You're not getting paid. So I don't know, it's baffling to me, Wendy Day.

And you also have to go in, and, and I'm not sure how your company works, but you know, I've been using, um, Songtrust for my clients, and I'm not happy with Songtrust. We're about to move, um, but a lot of my clients, they set up accounts and then that's all they do. They don't go in and add the songs, and it's like, okay, um How is the computer gonna know?

So yeah, you're 100% right. And our workflow may be slightly different than what you're facing just because we're dealing with a lot of producers. Now don't be wrong, we have a lot of artists and we're ramping that up, but I've created pre-registration templates and I could share it with you and your, your community for free. Like, it's totally fine, but just Google Sheets. But we've created pre-registration templates that has all the viable information you need So we use Muzo, a lot of different apps that we, and companies we work with to pull data for our producers to find out, oh, I didn't even know I had a placement, right? With this person.

Oh wow.

Technology that we have, we have Beat ID and then we also have some other people we work with. So we put these things together and then list out all the songs and then give them a section to fill in like their full name, to get other people's full names, whatever they need to get. And they get it done. They're like, man, this is such a pain in the ass. And then I'm like, it is. That's, that's the point though. You only have to do this one time right. If you do it one time right, you'll never have to worry about this again unless there's a crazy dispute where you registered the right way but the artist, or who, maybe it's the producer comes along and registers at 100 and the publisher is not doing their job. They let it slip through the gates and now it's screwing up registrations. That's the other thing too. Publishers are not interchangeable in my opinion. You, you, in my opinion, like a bad publisher who does not go through and try to stop fraud and, and make sure the right people are getting paid are not doing it justice. So people come to me like, this person is taking 5% less than you guys. I'm like, okay. I'm like, can you reach out to them like you just did me? No. Do they give you opportunities? No. Do they have a platform to sell beats and do all— no. Okay. Like, have you heard good things? No. Okay, so what are you saying? Yeah, it's 5%. Worth more to you? It depends. I don't know. It's— my point is, it's like, they're not— if you're gonna work with a publisher, try to work with somebody who's knowledgeable, who gives you transparency, everything. But also take an interest. I'm not saying you have to be an expert, but just take an interest in your catalog. Know what you have, know what's out there. Because then they think nobody is truly going to care about your music and your creativity than you. Like, no one's going to care more. You have to care, you know what I mean? But I just want to point that out because, you know, I've heard that. And then those same people come back to me, are like, dude, I signed with this person, can you help me get out of the deal? I'm like, I wish. Yeah, it's— but you know, I'm not trying to crap on anybody. It's just, it's just what I know. It's just every day, you know what I mean?

It's the reality of it. And, and you said it best when you said nobody's gonna care like you do. I remember when I first started, and the industry's changed a lot, but a lot of things are still kind of the same. When I first started, um, publishing deals were always the publisher saying, oh, we're going to get you all these placements and we're going to put you in TV and film and gaming and all this stuff. And then I would always hear artists complain that, you know, I, I signed to them, but they haven't done anything. And it's like, okay, but have you? And it's like, well, no, that's their job. It's like, okay, but you just told me they're not. So why don't you step up and do it for yourself? Because maybe when they see you starting to get placements, they'll say, oh shit, let's help. Because we see that we can make more money with this person, so let's put our effort there. And it's like, well, no, it's their job. It's their job. Okay, so if it's somebody else's job to clean your house and your house doesn't get cleaned, are you going to live in a pigsty? Because that's kind of what you're doing.

That's— listen, that is what I deal with still on a daily basis. The grass is always greener at the other place, and 9.8, 9.9 out of 10, it's not. I have had people who have left and it sucked. Certain members I didn't want them to leave. I'm like, just be careful to that. And things have panned out. And I might say I was wrong, I was just concerned. But then the majority of people, yo man, it's— this is— they said they were gonna put me in this room and link me with this artist, and I just got 3 placements from this artist on my own. But yet I, I don't understand why I'm locked in this deal for the next 6 years. Like, why did— this is my point. So, um, and it's unfortunate too because I'm actually dealing with a handful of issues right now where where people want to leave certain deals, management deals, whatever type of deals they're in that they sign when they're 18 years old, um, and are very young. Yes, they're 18, but they're still very young.

Still young.

Don't know what they're signing. They're signing a lot away, um, and they're not getting anything from it because we've, we've created a bunch of people in this industry, which— and this is my opinion, um, that have found ways to know enough to seem like they know what they're doing to latch on to people who are having success and don't have the help. Then they let the creator do all the work, and then they just get paid really to set some things up, and they don't even do that right a lot of the time. So that's what I'm trying to combat. It's not that I'm like, I hate everyone and I want everyone to sign here and no one can work with anyone else. It's not that.

It's, it's not.

Yeah, I want people to work with the people who actually care and know what they're doing and will have value. Because people are like, hey man, this producer said this, should I pay for this? Or Hey, this person said this, should I do this? And it's like, what's the value? Uh, exactly. So what is the value in anything we're doing? You know what I mean? Like, do you find value in me? I think a lot of people are with us because they found value in me or value in my A&R Andrea or Woot or even, hey, I love Abe. Like, whatever it is, what is the value point of what are we doing for you? How are we benefiting it, your career and so on? And my biggest thing is a publisher's job is to do one thing, collect your records, pay you money. That's it. And I tell people that all the time. Yes, these other people can promise opportunities and promise this and promise that, but can they pay you? Because at the end of the day, all these promise opportunities ain't paying the bills. Money. So you need to set— I actually had a call with a producer this— no, not this week, it's only Tuesday— last week, um, and he brought up a couple issues. Oh, I got this song with 100 and some million and this I'm like, okay, do you have agreement? No. Have you been paid? No. I'm like, well, what are you doing? He's like, well, I don't want to bring it up to them because I feel like I'll burn the bridge.

And oh, that's my biggest complaint about this industry.

Yes. Well, dude, listen, let me, let me pan to you this way. Of course they're going to want to keep working with you. You're the guy who doesn't want to get paid. So the, the issue here is, do you want to A, not piss these people off because they're such great people and they're treating you like crap, and have all these great people but zero ownership and zero money, and now you're working at Home Depot? No offense to anyone who works at Home Depot, it's a great place, but I'm just saying, if you want to be in the music industry, you probably don't want to work at Home Depot, correct? Or do you want to say, yo, I love you as a creator and I love this, I'm gonna let my team or my attorney, or shit, even if you have put your own business hat on. I'm putting everything— the creative side aside. We're talking business now. I'm solidifying my ownership. If that pisses somebody off, you can do it respectfully. I think sometimes it's kind of like that fight or flight, like, dude, like, ah, I can't say anything, or it's either like, you need to pay me my money now. And it's like, yo, take the emotion out of it. Yes, listen, I need to be compensated. This isn't compensated. I'm gonna DMCA these records. I don't want to do that. I love working with you guys, but I need to be treated fairly. Listen, if you're talented, your work will speak for itself. People will work with you if you're just standing on basic business. If you're not going trying to— I want everything 100%. Like, as long as you're doing business like in a fair way, I think at some point if people really value you, they will figure a way to make it work. And if not, then you probably don't want them in your life anyway.

You don't want them anyway.

Exactly. But why just let that carry on and on? And I actually gave this person— obviously I'm not naming names and situations completely, but I think this is a really good learning lesson. I said 'You got a beautiful studio behind you.' He's in a studio. I said, 'I'm like, how are you paying for this if you're not getting paid from your music?' He looked around, was just like— and started to cry. I shit you not, started to cry a little bit. Just not like Paul, I'm gonna tear it up. Yeah, he's like, 'Man, you hit it. You kind of hit something there, man.' He's like, 'My, my girl's been paying for this place and, you know, kind of let me do my dream.' And I said, 'So is your girl more important or are these guys liking you more important? He's like, fuck, man.

I'm like, for real.

I'm just saying though, like, it's both. Once you— I even, I brought this up, I've actually come up with a whole idea of turning, uh, the music business into a board game or some type of digital game or something. Because once you realize that this is all just a game, it could be your best friend on the other side, but if their goal and their job is to get the best deal for their client They don't care, and they will do what they need to do to get that deal done. So now, does that make me upset sometimes? Of course. But I've also learned that if you don't feed in that emotion and you just realize that's what their goal is, and you approach it with, well, if that's your goal, then my goal is to protect, and my goal is to go back and forth. I know this— I'm not a lawyer or anything like that, but I know enough to be able to then push back and get things done. Yeah, but at some point, if you don't put your foot down— I've talked to Pain One about this, a lot of my friends over the years, and it's like the same, the same story, and I see it every day. Oh, I'm gonna lose the relationship. It's like, yeah, but it's like, at the end of the day, do you think in 10 years these people are probably going to care about you? And if you haven't solidified your ownership on the composition publishing side and gotten your master rate and gotten your fees and got fully executed agreements and have your proof and How are you going to live off of music? You have to put your, your stick in the ground or whatever the hell it is in the ground and say, yeah, this is mine, I'm claiming it, and this is what it is. Like, this— it's— Wendy, I'm sorry, like, this whole topic pisses me off so bad because it's like we have been brainwashed into thinking the music industry is based around a couple things: accolades, vanity metrics, blowing up, getting a deal, and doing all these things. But in reality So many more of us could be working in this industry if we just looked at it more like a game and said, well, shit, there's a game, where's the rule book? Go get me the rule book. I'm gonna figure out how to play this game, then I'm gonna also find a way to poke holes in it and manipulate the game so it benefits me more. Not in a malicious way, you know what I'm saying? So yes, that's what I try to teach people, and it just makes me mad because I feel like it's preyed upon a lot on the younger people, and that really bothers me. I didn't really have a lot of people growing up watching my back. I had my older sister, which was great, she was a lifesaver. But then I— people like Jay Hatch, RIP, one of my brothers, I love him to death, we just lost him, but he taught me a lot. Abe even being one. I think I might even be a year older than Abe, but who cares. Um, but other people have taught me, but like, I still don't feel like there was enough there in our era of teaching a lot of this. I've even talked to people in the industry, you know, my age, your age, and talking about things. I, I— if I told you some of the people call me last week, ask me about publishing, like, bro, you've been in the game for 40 years. What are you talking about? You don't know this. And I don't mean that rudely, it's just— it's not real. Holy shit. Like, these people really—

how do you not know?

Yeah. So it's just like, that is what I'm truly trying to change. And it's like, how can I get this through to people in a way that they'll understand? So that's where a lot of the layman term stuff— I try to— I don't say dumb it down, but just try to make it more understandable from like a two sides to a song. Like, yes, get on. Hey, you go to the mechanical royalties, they're based off the concert. It's like, well, what are you saying? Like, people they tune out. So I just try to dumb it down, but I'm not like that. I think people are dumb. It's just this shit is complicated.

It is complicated.

It's complicated for a reason though, I feel like.

Yes, I, I agree.

I can't figure this out, I'm just not gonna register. Okay, I guess those royalties are just gonna be redistributed back to the publishers.

Exactly, what a surprise.

Wild, wild stuff. But this is the stuff I'm trying to change, Wendy Day. Um, you know, just between me and you, like when we're gonna be live, but between all of us Like, I've gotten all the political figures that are working in music. I've gotten the people who push for the MLC. I'm looking into all this. I want to go to Congress. I want to get laws changed. Why can somebody who just turned 18 be pushed into doing a buyout and giving rights to the biggest song that could change their life? Why is that allowed?

Why is that even possible?

Yeah, it's not fair. There's got to be some things to protect creators. But guess what? That kid who then just got screwed over, he's lost his passion for music. He thinks everybody's evil. And that could have been the next whoever— Michael Jackson, the next whoever you want to name that you think is great.

Yes.

So that is, that is like how I look at these things. And it's like, who's with me? You know what I mean? Like, I'm right with you.

I got a ticket to DC.

Let's go, let's go, let's go, go. But anyway, yeah, it's a, it's a—

and I think we also, we also need to shame the people that take advantage of— you mentioned like the, the 18-year-old that signs the fucked up agreement. There's somebody on the other side of the desk that's pushing that contract in front of them. And after it happens, there's some people that don't realize because their lawyer just gave them paperwork and they had them sign. But then there's other people that know exactly what they're doing, and they know exactly what they're, what they're asking the person across the table from them to do. And in the industry, we need to talk about them. And none of us need to do business with people like that. Because if that becomes as ugly as like a pyramid scheme, or, or insulting people publicly on, on podcasts where you got— you get, you get shut down and shamed and, and banned from the world, that's what we need to do. Can't get away with it, they won't do it.

Exactly. And that's the biggest thing. It's like, people come to me too, like, hey, I wanna, I wanna maybe, uh, leave your, your 1-year standard admin deal with Sony to go on to a bigger deal. And it's like, okay, well, what kind of bigger deal? Well, they want to sign me to this co-publishing deal for 4 years with a 7-year retention. Now I'm in a deal for 11 years. Like, okay, well, what's the advance? No, there's no advance. Wait, wait, 50% of your catalog for this long? For no money? Well, I don't really have anything. It's like— why would you do that? Yeah, yeah, why? Why? I'm like, hold on a second, go find me a clip. No, I'm gonna challenge you, Wendy Day, and everybody watching this. And I could be wrong, I'm not saying I'm right, but I'm saying let's just play a game. I challenge you, and this is in no way shape or form saying that doing a bigger co-publishing deal is a bad thing, because we do have some clients in them. But I challenge you to find somebody online with a video clip specifically, or audio, saying, 'I signed this long-term deal and it was the best decision of my life.' Find me somebody, please. Because unfortunately, a lot of people think, again, grass is always greener than the situation I'm in. They find out it's usually not, then it's like, uh, they don't want to say anything because now they look like an idiot. But in reality, what we need is them to speak up— excuse me, speak up in these times. Because if they don't— yo, I just saw a dude on IG, man, he was in the studio with so-and-so and he's got placements, he's got this, he's got— yeah, but he hasn't paid, or he's whatever it is. If you're not speaking about these situations, how are people gonna know that they actually happen? And I'm not saying you have to speak on them. I think Again, it's that fight or flight. It's like, well, I'm not going to say anything because it's just— I don't want the drama, I don't want this, I don't want that. Or it's the, if I do something, I'm gonna freak out and start calling all these people out. Again, it doesn't have to be about that. It's like a review. Hey, I had a really shitty experience, they didn't pay me for 3 years. Like, if that's the truth, that's the truth. Exactly. But I just challenge people because I just feel like I, I deal with that a lot personally. And this is maybe me just airing my grievances, but I get that a lot. And it's not that I don't think there's other people out there doing great work. I just said, what's the value? Show me the value. Can't show me the value? Okay, well, now go find me somebody who spoke out about this same company and said it was the best decision of their life. Uh, I couldn't find anything. I'm just saying, if nobody's saying it's a great decision and nobody's saying it's a shitty decision, I don't think it's in the middle. I think it's more or less it's a shittier decision. Um, but listen, everything is situational. Like I said, we even have— like, I've been doing Pub for 5 years, like full-time, 5 years. I think one, maybe two people in a bigger deal outside our standard deal. I'm a big believer in ownership. With that said, I have people who want to play that game. They want to go get a bigger deal. They want to try to work that publishing system. They're— again, if it makes sense for you, it aligns with your goals, and you're receiving value back, amazing. Me, I like short-term. I like ownership. We're blessed to be able to build technology in the Sony and allow people to use Sony the biggest publisher in the world and one of the best, if not system, and not be tied down for multiple years. That's the benefit of what we're doing. So that's just kind of how I feel.

I love the concept of come try us for a year and see what you think, because if people love what's happening, they're gonna stay.

Yeah, but we deal with the same things we just talked about. Hey, I've been with you guys, I haven't got any placements yet. Okay, we're— that's not our job. Our job is to collect your money. Well, I don't have anything. Okay, not saying you shouldn't have signed up then, but it's like, well, what are you doing to generate songs? Oh, you're selling on BeatStars? Well, we do have a creator success team over here that helps you for free. Let me link you with them. Okay, cool. So we have other things that other publishers don't have because we have BeatStars. Even vocalists— I've signed a handful of vocalists. One of them just won a BMI award for having a top 10 song in America as a non-US writer. Right now she's selling her vocal packs and loops herself on BeatStars as a vocalist collaborating, and now she's getting collaboration money off beat sales and more opportunities. So I'm not saying everybody has to do that, but we try to offer those things. But I deal with the same things that we're talking about all the time, and a lot of times people will leave. And like I said, majority of the times, 9.89, then they come back. Hey, is there any way you think I can get out of this deal and come back to just being with you guys? Like, I'm doing the same thing I was doing there The difference is they're taking this or they're doing that, you know what I mean? They're taking something more that I didn't realize was going to happen. And it's just like, unfortunately, no, there's nothing I can do. And that's what really sucks because it's like I never approach it like, I told you so, because it's like I don't look at that as an I told you so moment. I look at that as like, I failed you. Like, I wish I could have given you more advice. Now, like I said, there are that 0.1, 0.2 out of 10 times where I'm like, it's not that I'm like, no, this is bullshit, don't do this. It's like, be careful, ask questions. Look, I still try to help people even when they leave our publishing services. Exactly. So I just tell them that. Yeah. And it does work out. Like, I had, I had a team of people in a certain country, I won't say because it could give it away, it was a duo producer group. They wanted to leave because the producer that was— they were signing to another producer, but he has publishing, has all these different things. It's in the same city as them. In a different country. Dude, I'm nowhere near you. So if you're gonna get to get up out of bed and go into the studio every day with them and cook up, and that's what you want to do, I cannot match that value. And this is what I'm talking about. If there are specific things that actually are happening— now, I haven't talked to them a little bit, so I don't know if it actually has happened, but they seem happy, so I'm hoping it has. But those are situations where it's like, hey, maybe this decision is the right decision. But you have to be really realistic with yourself. Because everybody wants to believe it's the right decision. You wouldn't be making it if you, you know, didn't. But really, is it? Like, that's it, you know. I'm not trying to scare tactic people or make it seem like we're better than anybody. It's all I'm trying to do is get people to look at things with a different perspective, right? And just, yeah, it's questions. And I really think that, like, the game idea is a really interesting way of looking at it. It's been something I've been doing to help educate producers on a lot of this because it's very hard for producers and creators in general to separate their feelings and emotions, right? They're creating art. There's a lot of feelings and emotions. To separate that from the business side— yes, I stress over it. Yeah, you know, someone's gonna steal your shit, they're gonna steal your shit, man. There are things we can go do. So that's what— that's why people like, how are you so calm right now? I'm like, it's just I've seen it. It's like I've grown cold to it. It's kind of sad, but also it's giving me the tools to not act off emotion. Oh my God, exactly. I used to hit people up screaming at them like, yo, who do you think you are? I'm a Philly, you know, the Philly comes out. Yeah, can't be doing that. You can't. I've learned. I've had to get the, hey dude, you need to tone it down a little bit. I'm like, I know. So I've learned, I've grown, and it's helping our creators. I've noticed I'm dealing with an issue, a big issue right now. A big artist that we all love, we think they might have sold something, so we're looking into it. And the producer is like, I'm gonna call them out on social media. I'm like, don't Do that, do that, because I've had people do that and it comes back to not be true, and it's a huge coincidence, and now you look like an idiot, and now you're an asshole.

You're that guy.

Yeah. So once I told him, I said, listen, thing you want to do in this case— I know we're going all over the place here in this combo, but I was like, what you want to do— this could help somebody, right— is take the emotion out of it, open a Google Doc, or if you're old school, grab a pen and paper and start writing down the facts, not what you think. I feel like it sounds like— no, what are the facts? When did you make the beat? Okay, you made it here, it came out here. Okay, cool, you have the date. Where's the FLP files? Show me the FLP files. Cool, you got those. Okay. Oh, they said they did this. Okay, screenshot it off of Instagram, put that in the evidence. Evidence and facts will always get you— always will get you everywhere. Yes, it, it's— don't act off emotion. So no, I think once a creator separate that and really can hone in on that, it will help them a lot. It's helped me, so yeah, it's helped me too.

Also, there's the, the logical side of your brain does not work when you're feeling emotion. When you're feeling emotion, it's fight or flight, and fight comes than— more than flight when you're— when you're angry. So what's happening is you're— you're trying to hurt them, you're trying to get at them, instead of saying, you know, like, be calm and figure out, okay, what are my options? How would they have had access to my song? How would they have— you know, because the— the way— the way the law looks at it, if you get to court, is first of all, does the average person with their ears hear that it's the same thing? So you might, as a trained artist, hear the same thing, but does the average person hear the same thing? And then if the average person says yes, it's like, okay, great, now that we know that the average person thinks it sounds the same, how would this person have had access to it? And if you can't prove access, that's—

that there's a— there's a chance for the door to be shut.

Yes.

So that is what you have to prove. If we're, you know, we're talking about cases like where stuff is being stolen, 100%. Yeah, if you don't have any access to them getting it, like, it could be a coincidence. But if you do have that access and it's strong enough evidence to point that it is possibly or most likely stolen, you can even go a step further. And I've done this 3 times in the last month— hire a musicologist.

Yep.

We work with a guy named Peter Oxendell. He's Ed Sheeran's music— Dude is— he's insane. He's the man. He's the GOAT.

Yes.

Um, he's come back after we've paid him some money and said, nah, this doesn't match. We're like, damn. Then he's come back and like, not only is this a match, I think this is literally the same exact thing. Like, they just took your stuff and did nothing to it but added producers to it somehow. We've had cases like that, and that musicology report and that name of who he is and his company is, we bring it back to the parties and it goes from this is not— don't make these type of assumptions or threats, and then we send that report, goes, okay, how's $50,000 sound on the, on the fee side? Because they know, like, damn, it's like— so it's what— I hate to say, it's like, it's not what you know, it's what you can prove, you know what I mean? Like, you've got to have those facts and evidence lined up in a case where you're talking about that. But the worst thing you do is go right to social media. I would only do that if you've literally exhausted every single other thing I just said. Outside of musicologists, because I know they can be a little pricey. Yeah, too bad. A couple hundred bucks up to about $2,000 depending on what you need. Some people might not have that. I actually had a guy who did this and it worked out for him, but in most cases it does not work out for you. And then if you're wrong, who wants to work with the person who's quick to pull the trigger on falsely accusing you of stealing? Just don't be that with them. It's not a good look. So, um, glad we got to touch on this because it's something I see. I don't say weekly, but definitely monthly, probably multiple times monthly, if not weekly.

So it's, it is common, absolutely. And then it, you know, there are the people that, that get robbed, there are the people that have had stuff stolen from them, there are people that are crying wolf and it really is a wolf, you know. And, and it's, it's an issue in the music industry, it's been an issue my entire career. But I will say this Mike, it's better today because there's just more— there's more ways to prove that it's your song. There's more ways to prove somebody had access to your song, you know, especially if you put it up on, on social media or you put it out into the— into the ether.

You gotta remember too, like, if you're getting something off of line, like, off online, like, there's other ways. Again, we're the only publisher in place that has a beat selling, or it's not even just beat selling, but a creator selling platform. If you came and got a free download from somebody, you probably gave them your email. Like, we could see where you got those files from on the back end.

Yeah.

And then if you— some of the people even buy a license so they can extract the stems out and then recreate it. It's like, yeah, but you bought— that doesn't— just because you made it, you still, like, you're still using that composition to make a new composition.

That's crazy.

You can't do that. That's illegal. Like, that's copyright infringement. We're gonna go after you for that. So yeah, of tracking stuff down too. And people just, I don't know, don't think through things through, I don't think, when they're doing this.

I think also when, when people are creative and they're starting out, they feel like they have nothing to lose. They don't realize that their reputation is involved. They just feel like, oh, go ahead and sue me, I don't own anything. Okay, but do you really want to be that guy that your first foray into the music industry is you got sued? Like, really, you want to be that guy? That doesn't make sense to me.

Yeah, no, do good business. Like, just strive to treat people fairly and do good business. I mean, I— at the end of the day, like, if you— if you're not cutthroat, could it cut down on the chance of having more wealth and power? Sure. That's why people do it, because like a lot of industries, ownership is extremely important. This is why everyone wants to own your stuff. If it wasn't, why do people want to own your stuff? Exactly. So I don't know, it's just this industry is crazy, Wendy. I could go on and on.

Um, and I've also, I've also noticed that it, it's a handful of people that are the bad actors, and we kind of all know who they are, and the same names come up over and over and over again. And if artists would just do a little bit of research on the internet and put in the names of the people that they're working with, and then go past the first 2 pages on Google, like really go deep and see what are people saying about those folks. It would cut down on them a lot. That's it.

I have people come to me all the time like, yeah, I had to hit up 4 people to find out if you're real or legit or not. I'm like, good. I'm like, go ask more. You want more? Here. I have a group of 300, 250, whatever the max is on IG. You want to go ask all them? Go. I want people to ask those things because if I did do something wrong, I want to know about it because I'm gonna face it, um, you know. But usually that comes down to like, I got money for someone when they wanted to take it all, that's why they don't like me. It's never like— it's just, it's much— I'm a big believer in karma, and I just believe doing deeds and actions leads— it comes back. I'm living proof. Yeah, same with me. I've never ripped anybody off in the music business a day in my life, and I don't plan to. If I did, it was 100% unintentional, but I've never heard about it, so I'm assuming I haven't.

So I'm assuming I have it too.

There is enough—

the hate that I get is more people that have tried to work with me and I don't work with them. Either I feel like I can't make them money, so I'm, I'm— I feel like I'm doing them a service by passing and not taking their money. So that, you know, because I only take money from people I can deliver on. And then it's like, oh, that bitch. It's like, really, I'm a bitch because I didn't rip you off like everybody else out here? Wow.

Yeah, I'll take that one. Well, that's a whole other thing, is just, uh, self-reflection and just, you know, feedback, constructive criticism. It's— again, we just talked about, uh, separating emotions from— yeah, I guess— I mean, I guess giving people feedback on their music and not wanting to work with them, that's business. It's But even if someone doesn't like your music, listen, you're not gonna get everyone in this world who's gonna like your music. Just like I said, you're not gonna get everybody to be happy.

A lot of people where I don't like their music, I just don't feel like I can make them money. I don't— I think their market is either too small or they're just not good enough. There's other people making music in that style that are better or further ahead.

Yep.

And I'm not willing to take money and then not be able to deliver. My, my, my name and my reputation means more to me than any check I could ever get.

Facts. And that is something that I see a lot of that people aren't taking into consideration. They want to be in the music industry so bad that they're willing to take money from anybody. Yeah, basically do what they love for a living. And I want everyone to do what they love for a living, but at what cost, I think, is the good question.

Exactly.

And I deal with a lot— I deal with a lot of that, unfortunately, too. People who don't know what they're doing. Not that I know everything, but it's like something simple that I think is simple they should know as a manager or a representative or whatever company they're at. I'm not trying to call that managers because I'm a manager myself. Um, and I say this all the time, I feel like I always pick on managers, but I'm not. Um, you know, like, what is the understanding? Like, I don't know. Like, I don't know. It's crazy, Wendy. This is— there's so much Nonsense.

We could, we could, we could talk for hours, but if we do, nobody will watch this. I know. So I'm gonna—

30-second clips, right?

I'm gonna thank you so much for being so generous with your time and doing this, because I think that everything that we've talked about today is so important, and I think people really need to know, you know, how to protect themselves and make the right decision. And work with publishing companies. It's an area where so many artists that I know, they're like, okay, I'm just not going to worry about that because I don't understand it. Oh, okay. Putting your head in the sand only fills your nostrils with sand. It doesn't protect you, it just makes it so you can't breathe.

Yeah. And something we didn't touch on either is the black box, which I'm sure— I know you've talked about plenty of times on your past shows, so I won't kill people, hit them over the head with it, but It is real.

Uh, it's very real.

It's about a 3-year— so I actually did a case study where I emailed every PRO in society around the world in their native language. It took me a long, long time, and I asked them what their black box period— a lot of them were like, I don't know what you're talking about. Then when I try to explain it to them again, then they understood. But every single company came back to me and told me 3 years. The only ones were obviously the MLC because they were just started in 2020, so they don't have a black box. They're holding on the money. They're not gonna do it forever, but they're holding it now. And even like some of the bigger PROs in America have said they don't have a black box because they're just like, well, if we don't have it, we just assume they have it. If we— they don't have it, we assume they have it. So I'm like, what do you mean? Like, well, we just assume someone's gonna register it if it's big enough. I'm just like, that's crazy. So it's like this— if they're not that concerned about it because they feel like someone else will get it, and then everybody else is saying 3 years and the MLC's new, like there's all these different things. Like, why would you want to play with that? Just register it. And Black Box is— it's— it is literally the greatest sales tactic without being one. It's FOMO, like fear of missing out. Like, if that's not FOMO, like, I don't know what is. I talked to my team about this all the time. I was like, yo, that should be the number one selling factor. Not that we're trying to rope people into some shady deal. It's like, yo, literally, if you don't register these records, you're gonna lose money. And it's not a lot. Right? But no, yeah, records 10 years and older, 20 years and older, and I found money. So you should always register no matter how old they are. Just really 3 years plus, really 2 to 3 years, but 3 years after that, you just really don't know what's left because all the bureaus, the societies are operational independently. They all have their own way of doing things. So you can't just say, oh, it's 3 years. Some might be 2 and a half. 2. Like I said, I found all 3, but I've had other people say 5. I've had other people just not respond. So it's just, who knows, maybe they just hold on to it forever and you could just register 20 years from now and get your money. But it's just too risky, you know what I mean? And that's, that's the unfortunate thing about publishing is there's not a lot of clarity and transparency in the why. But I guess when you're dealing with different societies and companies around the world and they all kind of look at things differently This is why people just have different reasons and different rules and regulations. So the easiest thing I can tell you, register. Um, because the other thing that could happen— I know we're kind of about to end this, but I was thinking about this story. I had somebody else who had a song and it had like, I don't know, 100, 120 million streams, something like that, something pretty significant on Spotify. And, um, they didn't know about it somehow, and they found it through like a scanning report or something, or somehow they found out about it in a certain country. They just didn't catch wind of So they go and register it, and this is, you know, probably a year and a half ago. And I said, give it like 6 to 8 months because I'm not sure about the streams, how long it's going to take. Let's see, da da da da. He had 50%. I'm like, dude, you're at least looking at 50 grand, I would think, over time. Okay, so it's been a year and a half. He hits me up with, Mike, I only made like $1,800. I'm like, $1,800? I'm like, that is— how is that in a year and a half? That's something's gotta be wrong.

Yeah.

So I go and look into the song, and I don't know why this wasn't alerted because usually we'll get disputes and stuff. I'm not sure why, but I found a registration done by, um, a company you talked about earlier. I'm not going to say their name because I don't want to get sued. Um, basically registered this song at 100%. Um, and they did it like the week it came out. The artist claimed 100%, they put it through and allowed it, and that person has been collecting 100% of the money for like 2 years. So we were able to, I guess, with our registration, get some of the money. But since this pretty much illegal registration, fraud— fraudulent registration got through, we obviously put a stop to that, reached out, got it all fixed up. And we're going to try to route some money back from their account over to ours. But this is the other thing, again, if you're dealing with a publisher that is not fact-checking and doing their due diligence, it's not just about register your publishing, it's a register your publishing accurately. Because if you don't and you allow something like that through, not only did you pay someone more money than they're supposed to get, you now just took income away from somebody else. Yes, that is the one thing that really bothers me. So it's not just about— I'm always like, register your publishing, register— but it's a really registered accurately. And it's something I'm trying to teach myself the same.

And they have to understand what accurately is, because I can understand why somebody would claim 100% because they think, oh, I own 100% of my publishing, I don't have a publishing deal. It's like, okay, your 100% is really 50. Like they have to understand how publishing works in order to correctly register it. Or maybe they were a scumbag and tried to get over— I don't know.

I'm gonna point the finger even— not even at the producer, I'm gonna point at the publisher in this case.

Yeah, because if you know how it works, how could you let that even go through without questioning it?

And this is the reason some publishers get froze, meaning Pierre like, PROs will not take records from them until they clarify certain fraudulent records. Um, and this has happened, so it's a very serious thing. Um, a lot of people don't see it, so they only think about like, well, I didn't register, it's cool, I'll get to it at some point. Yeah, but God forbid that somebody lets a song through that they shouldn't have. Like, good luck getting that money back. Not saying you can't, but not gonna be as easy. So this is why I tell people, if you don't have any plans to like leverage your catalog to get a deal in the next month or two, like, just register the records. Like, publishers still will give you a deal if you have songs registered. You don't have to just have all these records and ownership. If anything, you have records— I have people, hey, I got 150 million streams from 5 years ago, can I get a deal? It's like, no. Like, because nobody knows how much money's there. It's actually beneficial to have money moving. And then, hey, I got a Drake placement coming up, okay, let's talk. Like, whatever it is, whatever the situation is, it's just better to have that money moving. And that song registered. Again, you do it right one time, you're good. It just pays you out over time. So exactly, that's what I try to get home to people. Just register the records. Like, there's no point. Just, you know, I mean, get with a good publisher, get with somebody who has everything set up, see your registration, see your analytics, look into them. If that guy did not look into his stuff, just to end it on this, and tell me, Mike, you told me this time, I've been watching— if he just was like, ah, I would have probably never looked into it because I didn't know. Registration was fine on our end, everything looked fine. It just got through from another publisher. And previously— so you know what I'm saying? So this is why it's also important too. Like I said, we do catch those things. Like, we get alerts. Like, what will happen is, say the PRO, say BMI in this case, will come back and say, hey, we see that there's two registrations from you and this other publisher, we're gonna put a hold on this record until we can get it figured out.

I love that they do that. They freeze all the money. Incentive to fix the problem.

Exactly. But there are cases that— like this. Why didn't that happen? I don't know, right? So, but the way you stop that is register. Because what would have happened if you were to register it before them and you did it the right way when the other person went the right— it would definitely flagged it then. I don't know why it didn't. It didn't on our side. It's so weird. But anyhow, it's just important. Register your records. That's, that's— and do it accurately.

And I'm going to take it a step further and ask everybody that's watching this right now to either pause this or end this and go to BMI or ASCAP or whoever your co-publisher is or your administrator is, and just go in and check and make sure all of your songs are there. Make sure all of your splits are correct. Check your address, make sure it's correct. Make sure that your bank account that is linked is still your bank account. Just go in and check. It'll, it'll take you 5 to 20 minutes depending on how many songs you have. Just go check right now.

Go, I mean it. Yeah, go do it.

Go do it.

I love it, Mike.

You're awesome. Thank you so much for doing this.

Thank you, Wendy. Thank you for having me. I've been wanting to do this for a while. I'm like, I've been wanting you to do this for a while too. Yeah, I could—

I watch you on Instagram and I just, I love, I love everything that you're doing. I love you care like I do, and I really appreciate it.

I truly do. It's, uh, it's hard to fake this. I'll say that every day for years. Um, because again, I said I'm a— I gotta be psychopath because what we have to endure, you too. Like, we're all crazy because it's like somebody's an addiction. It is.

But it's like, seriously, it's an addiction for me.

Oh, it's a big time addiction for me too. Yeah, if I'm not— I'm out and about doing stuff, I'm like, oh, whoa, that'd be kind of cool if we could tie that in the public. Like, hey, oh yeah, that looks cool. Like, how can I get this inside our deal? Like, just weird things like, oh, it'd be cool if we don't have this inside and this kind of app. Or like, it's— my brain is always moving to how I can better our members' journey and thinking about their problems. It's bad, it's bad, but it's good too.

It's a blessing, but it's, it's, it's, it's our chemical makeup. It's who we are. So we just have to suck it up. That's all it is.

This is what we're gonna do. This is what we're gonna do. Uh, everybody does camps and come make music. And I'm not saying you can't make music, but we should put together some type of like hiking retreat or something, one with nature, and go out and not just be about making music, but maybe bring in people who specialize in certain things when it comes to be awesome health. And so it'd be kind of cool. I don't know, just thinking about it right now, it's like, you know, that could be cool, you know. Maybe it's focused on how do you handle stress and the, the nonsense that can happen in the music industry. And don't be wrong, it's not all nonsense. There's amazing people in this industry, like yourself. Amazing people.

Yeah.

But how do you navigate that? How do you deal with the stresses? Like, I'm dealing with guys right now, 9, 10 guys who are in a really bad situation, uh, the deal they're in. And all of them came to me and basically were like, dude, like, I haven't made a beat in 3 months or 2, whatever it is. Like, I'm just mentally shot. Like, I hate— yeah, it's like, God, I hate to hear that because I hate to hear that. They should not make you feel that way. So it's like, how can we do to endure that and be prepared for that. But, uh, the whole nature thing, I love, you know, I would love to bring that into the fold because I think that will really— a lot of, a lot of these kids I'm talking to, they are kids, they don't, they don't live around nature, or they, like I said, like maybe, yeah, they got a park in their city, but it's not similar. They live in a certain part of the world where it's just not possible. But I don't know, at least we can do something maybe locally with people. That'd be awesome in the United States. That'd be amazing. So I'm, I'm all ears. Anybody got ideas?

It's a great idea. Let's Let's, let's figure it out and talk about it.

Hell yeah, I'm all about it.

Awesome. Thank you, Producer Whisperer, I love you to death.

We will talk. Your package is coming too. I, I know it's been a delay, but I actually just ordered magnets and some other cool things that are very cool too. So you're gonna have like a whole slew of, uh, trying to see if I have anything around here, but I have all sorts of crazy stuff. Awesome. This thing on, this is a trademark brand, so it's official. So I want to put it everywhere. And, uh, when people see it, they're just gonna think fairness. They're gonna think, you know, being treated the right way, getting what's yours. Yeah, that's what it's going to stand for when, when people see that. That's the goal.

It stands for it now.

Hell yeah, we're gonna keep that going. But Wendy, thank you so much. It's a blessing.

I appreciate you.

You too.

All right, okay, we'll talk soon.

Peace.