Make Millions With Publishing | No Standing Zone Ep.6

Hi, Liz. How are you?

Hi, Wendy Day.

I love you so much.

I love you more. I cannot— like, we are one in the same, and I am— I'm so happy to share this space and this time with you.

Thank you so much.

Absolutely.

This is my new podcast, and I'm so excited about it because I'm educating artists and up-and-coming industry people about stuff that, like, our generation knows so that we can really help them get to to the next level. That's my goal.

I think that is part of the legacy that I want to leave is truly educating. And I've spent, which we'll get into, but I've spent 29 years trying to educate. So it's me learning and then me also sharing that.

Yeah, I think when we share information, it helps us learn faster and it kind of reconfirms what we know, not to mention the whole good karma thing.

Absolutely. Absolutely. It, um, you know, for me, there is nothing where I learn every day still, you know, 29 years in and I crave it. I want to— what is the next step? What is the next thing? What is You know, and I think it is for somebody in this business, you have to continue to learn every day because it changes so quickly.

Yes, it does.

Yes, it does. It changes. When I first came in, we were on 2-inch and then half-inch, and then you're talking reels. And then the CD came in and we were like, holy crap.

Don't forget the DAT before the CD.

Oh, yes, the DAT before the CD. Yes. And it's crazy, but Dallas has like 4 storage units that are full of nothing. I'll bet he does.

Nothing but—

But hats, t-shirts, that, all that kind of stuff. Well, let's start there.

Let's explain to people who Liz Garner is.

So who is Liz Garner? I am definitely a music executive. I am a publishing executive. And teacher. So I have started in this 29 years ago. I met Dallas. My twin sister Elise was working with Alvin Spitz, the great Alvin Spitz mix engineer, and she was like, come to the studio, everybody wants to meet you. So I go to the studio and Dallas and I hit it off and I never left. I just started coming to the studio and He's like, what are you working on? Nothing. Okay, well, you want to help with this? And so I took it as an education. I really—

I love that.

I learned and I wanted to learn from him and everyone there.

And you realize you had the opportunity to learn from fucking Dallas Austin, right?

From Dallas Austin. And people are like, why in the world would you give— you know, because I always tell people I worked for free for 5 years before I was ever paid on anything.

Me too.

It was 6 years. It was the greatest education I could have ever gotten anywhere. You're in the room with superstar Gerald Busby, you know, um, Barry Gordy, like all these guys that used to come, and George Clinton. Um, I was able to work project with Michael Jackson. Like, who— from working with Gerald Busby, who then turned me on to, you know, other people, John, that was in Michael's, you know, kind of realm. And, and I was able to work a project with him. And so it was— yeah, it, it was things that I never ever ever envisioned for my life, but That's how it started. And then I kind of transitioned to working with Tricky Stewart and running Red Zone Entertainment for Tricky.

Amazing.

And then in 2005, I got a call from Teddy Riley. Teddy and I had been talking and we were trying to figure out, okay, what way can we work together? So I went to LA for a project that ironically never even got off the ground. But it put me in a different space and it put me in a different, um, realm. And I met E. Jean Mason. We call her Jean Mason. And she was actually one of the authors of the Copyright Act of 1976.

That—

oh wow— that took, um, you know, it took shape and started in the— in '78. And it completely restructured copyright law.

Yes, it did.

And so I always say I learned from the best. She was Quincy Jones' personal kind of publishing guru for 35 years, and she did everything for him in his publishing. And so I learned from her. I learned how to do terminations, what were terminations and reversions of copyrights. The importance of making sure that songs are input properly. Because there— we can get into every mistake somebody could make along the way.

Right.

But I want to make sure that everybody knows, like, you know, the right way. So it's the only way you get paid in this business. And the ownership is in the publishing.

That's your children's children's children's children's money.

That is where you create generational wealth. And I cannot stress that enough, especially for the younger ones coming up. So I, you know, I've been in primarily R&B and hip-hop. I've literally coordinated 45 albums from Beyoncé to Justin Timberlake to the Carter, you know, 3, 4, 5, all of them. But I've done 45 albums. I've worked on over 200 projects. Incredible. Yeah. And everything from, like, literally street teaming it. I remember being at— what was the record place over by Linux? Why am I forgetting it? The record store that we always used to do in stores. It was right across from Linux, but I'm going to think of it in a second. But Outkast had a signing there and Miss Benjamin, she saw me and she goes, here, you know, and she gives me this picket sign and she's like, my street team didn't show up here. Help.

Oh my gosh. Okay.

So I'm picketing out, you know, in front of Linux trying to get people to come in to buy Outkast's new album that's going to be You know, released at midnight, and I think that was probably '96, '97. So yeah, just everything from that to marketing to radio promotions. Um, I broke, uh, which actually JT Money, who dat, that Tricky Stewart, that was like his first real hit. Um, JT was on Free World, which was Sonda Dallas, and You know, I, I'm in the strip clubs, I am wherever I have to go to be. Yep, wherever you got to go to promote and to be involved and to get this record out there. And, um, I sent it and took it over to Ryan Cameron, and Ryan broke it at, at radio for us. But you just, you just did whatever, you know. And I took it to learn absolutely every part of the business. And, um, and then found my forte, you know, in publishing. And of course, that's where I am now.

Yeah. So my biggest question for you today is, what is publishing?

So there are— publishing, let me say this, publishing is probably the most complicated portion of what the music business is, but it's what pays, and a lot of people don't understand that. So you have two sides of a record. You have the musical composition, right? And then you have the lyrics, and the song is created by, of course, the combination of those two things. And whatever, you know, right, it could be Dallas and Nas Henderson and let's say Future or T.I., like they come in, they do this big record. The record isn't really truly a record until the paperwork's done. On those 45 albums that I said, you know, I was a part of and those albums did not get released. Until all the paperwork was turned in and everything was signed off on. Today, y'all, these kids go in the studio, they record a song, they upload it. You know, my nephew Ugly God called and he's like, me and Lil Yachty just did this song. We're putting it out on Friday. I said, no, you're not. No, you're not. No, you're not. Like, we have to get paperwork. We got to get side artist agreements. We got to get agreements in place and we got to get splits. And, um, so I was always called the studio mama because I would, you know, go into the studio and make sure that, you know, if Maya was here, that everything was signed off on, or Brittany, or, you know, getting into the studio. And, you know, producers that are working out of New York but hire me to make sure everything's done. And publishing is just that. It is the composition and you— it is the means by which to release. So you have PROs, which is BMI, ASCAP, SESAC. Those are your most famous kind of known ones.

Performing Rights Organizations is what PRO stands for, just in case somebody doesn't know.

Oh yeah, I was about to say it's Performing Rights Organizations. And then you have your publishers and the publisher's job is kind of twofold. It is to exploit you as an artist, but then it's also to collect your royalties. And there are deals that can be structured a thousand different ways, but primary things are done either on an admin side or them in kind of a 50/50 split. A lot of admin deals are kind of the thing right now versus, you know, a 50/50 co-publishing deal. Those of course still exist, but a lot of companies are saying, okay, we're going to give you an advance because we know that, you know, we can take this and we can make this bigger. And they, you know, whether it's sinking it in television or movies or commercials, you know, it is the lifeline for some of the money that you make as a songwriter, right?

So if an artist is just completing a song, and I'm going to make this kind of easy, I'm going to say there's a producer and there's a rapper and they come together and they make a song. How do they, how do they own their publishing? Like, how do they make sure that, like, what do they have to do? What are the steps?

Well, the steps: one, complete a split sheet. And I can— I like— people say split sheets are so antiquated. Yes, and I'm working on something for you, um, so that it's not so antiquated. However, um, a signed piece of paper is a legal contract, and that is the stipulation that's really the first part of what has to go into registering. The other part is filing with copyright.org or copyright.gov. I'm sorry, copyright.gov. You go in and you register the copyright after you complete the song. You register with your PRO. If you're with a publisher, then you go in and make sure that the publisher has that information so that they can do the collections on it. Every song—

What if they don't have a publisher?

If they don't—

Aren't they then the publisher themselves?

They do. They are the publisher. And one thing that I— a lot of people will say, oh, I'm with BMI. Okay, well, what's your publisher name with BMI so that I can register that? What do you mean? I'm a writer. Yeah, you're a writer, but you're also a publisher and you're missing out on 50% of your income if you do not take what you've done as a writer and also publish it. You are your own publisher. So you have to start a publishing company, which is registering with the Secretary of State, starting a business, getting an EIN, setting up a checking account, so that it is a legitimate business. You are a— when you are a songwriter, you are a business. And a lot of times they're missing out on that and they don't understand that. It is an intellectual property. And what you have to do is protect that intellectual property. You're protecting yourself by registering the song, by And if you don't have, there are companies out there like Songtrust who will collect for independent artists. There are a couple of others. Of course, the PAV's new, I mean, PAR, I'm sorry, PAR's new company. AO. Yeah, AO. And I think that is going to be key for independent artists to be able to get involved with with someone who is on that collection side. You've got plenty of publishers that'll do what they call an admin deal. You can do an 85/15 or, and, you know, take no advance and, you know, but you've got to know someone to do that. You've also got to be a proven writer. They're not just going to do it for Joe Blow down the street. You know, you have to have that relationship. But somebody like Par's Company AO, to be able to collect for those independent artists that are coming into this. And they don't really— the other places you need to register is Harry Fox Agency. You need to register with the MLC, with SoundExchange as a producer and an artist. Like, you need to make sure that you're collecting all of your royalties.

Beautiful. So when, when I've made a song and there's a producer and there's a rapper on it, where does the money come from that pays for the publishing?

So the money comes from streams and downloads and sales and sync licensing. You've got, you know, in a sync, a synchronization or a sync license is when you place it in a film or television project. Anytime it plays on the radio, anytime that, that's where your PRO comes in and also your publisher. So they collect the publishing side as well as the PRO collects you as a songwriter and your also your publishing company. But, you know, they come into a song, let's say Dallas and T.I. does a song, I gather the information. Now, as someone in the position that I'm in for the both of them, I would make sure that it's registered, right? Because I work with Dallas, I manage his his catalog. So every song that he touches, it comes to me before it goes anywhere. So I make sure that if there are any samples on it, that the samples get cleared. You have to clear both the master side and the publishing side if those, you know, both elements are used. If you do not clear those songs that you sample, you are in violation of copyrights, um, which is intellectual property, and you can be sued for copyright infringement.

I love that. I don't love getting sued, but I, I, I love that. Um, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make this a little bit more difficult so that you can give us all an exa— you know, an example. So Um, I know that if I'm in the, in the studio with a producer and I'm the rapper or the singer, I know that for all intents and purposes, I own 50% of the song and the producer owns 50% of the song. But what if I'm a songwriter or singer and I just do the hook and there's a rapper that does all the verses? How do we break that up so that everybody gets whatever's fair and what's due?

So it is, it's So every producer, every producer is kind of different. So, but most of the time it is either the, you know, all three of them. Let's just say it's three writers and they come in and Dallas will go, you know what, we'll just split it, you know, so it's 30, 30, 30 across the board. And then there's other ones where, you know, the hook is a huge part. It is typically 20%. 15 to 20, typically 20 if I'm involved. The hook is very much a part of what makes a song. And then the rapper would get 30% for his verses and then the producer would get the other 50%. On a song, think of it as a pie. It's 100%, it's a whole. So what is going to make up 100? And you can do where the verses are 10 each, you know, you've got 4 writers, you could split it 25% each person. It just has to make sense.

So really it's what you negotiate.

It is what you negotiate, but it's also what, you know, so this is what, this is why a split sheet is so incredibly important because I've been involved in lawsuits where Um, and it's— this is, this is known, it's a known case, but, um, Britney Spears and Tricky Stewart were, um, approached by Madonna and her people because Britney and Madonna did a song and Madonna didn't get any publishing. And she came back like 2 years later and kind of held things up and was saying, you know, I wrote on it. No, you didn't. If you want a piece of the record because you're Madonna, say that, you know. And as like, that is not something that you as a producer or a songwriter has to, um, do or, you know, respect. I know there was some back and forth on Instagram when Beyoncé's, um, album came out that she got credit, but she she's not really a songwriter. She writes, she may not write her biggest hits, but she is listed as a songwriter.

Why?

Because of who she is. You know, she has warranted, based on her experience, she has warranted getting a piece of the publishing.

I call that leverage.

Yeah, leverage. Yes, that is, that's the exact word for it. Um, she is leveraged. Um, then there's another, you know, I kind of went back and forth. I talked to Bangladesh about this, um, a few weeks ago even. I saw him and, um, there was, you know, he was like, oh, finally got the payment on Khaleesa's song that he wrote. And, um, he It had been tied up for 17 years because she didn't sign off on the split.

Wow.

Now the smart thing— 17 years. The smart thing that he did was register the song on his behalf. His project coordinator or his publishing manager, whatever you want to call somebody who inputs this information, um, register the song both with PRO BMI and with his publisher. If that had not been done, then there would have been— you can only go back 3 years on a PRO. The MLC will go back 7— I mean, 14 years. Oh, that would have been 17 years of lost publishing income had that not— it's one thing to not register a song, it's another thing to register a song and it be in dispute because you know who's collecting. Um, kind of the downside to that is the publisher has that income for 17 years sitting there, it's making money off your money that's sitting there for 17 years. And, um, you know, and I told— I told Bangladesh, I was like, at least, you know, you had the wherewithal to register your songs. Yeah, because if you hadn't have, then all they could have gone back was 3 years.

Wow.

Yes. And I've had an artist call me and, can you please go after my money? And, um, on a song that has been out 10 years and she never put it through a PRO. And I'm like, I, I can't go back but 3 years. And the song was a huge song 10 years ago, and it made the most money in the first 5 years. Yeah, it's like you've got to really be smart with this. Yeah, when it comes down to, you know, sessions and studios and making sure, you know, everything's registered.

Outstanding. Um, what is the black box? It's, it's so topical right now. If you could explain to us what that is. And I'm trying to say it without smiling.

It is literally my existence. Yes. So the black box is— it's very popular in Europe. Um, you know, that's kind of where most of it— you know, those European dollars that are collected and nobody signs up and nobody knows it. It's considered a black box. It is literally a box full of money that is sitting there that has been uncollected because they haven't— songs haven't been registered properly, or songs haven't been registered, or, um, like in the UK, maybe ASCAP didn't pass the information along to PRS. Like, you've got to make sure as, as a publisher, as a songwriter— if I am a songwriter, I am going to take responsibility for every penny. Every penny that I make is based on my actions as a songwriter, every one of them. So you have to literally make sure that your song is registered, you have an ISRC code, you have UPC code, you have, you know, if you're doing it as a songwriter, as you're writing with someone, make sure that you know what that UPC is, make sure you know what that ISRC code is, make sure when it's registered, and an ISWC code is— ISWC is the world, right? It is the worldwide, because if that number is associated, then they can— you've got that number that says, okay, this is— it's like, um, it's like a Social Security number for a song. Think about that for a UPC, ISRC, and ISWC. That is your Social Security number and it goes with that song. It's considered metadata, which metadata is probably as important as copyrights. It is. If there is anything that is important, it's that. And this black box, so back to the black box, it just kind of, it sits out there and people, it's unclaimed money that literally just is there that people have to go, that it's not, you know, it's got to be, you know, it doesn't have to be collected. It's going to sit there and they're going to continue to make money off of it, you know, through, you know, interest on the money sitting there. But it is, yeah, it can be the bane of our existence for sure.

And it could be something as simple as Putting in your name incorrectly, like hitting a wrong digit when you're typing it in, or I see it a lot with DJs, like DJs that actually make music, where they might sign up under letter D, letter J, and then whatever their name is. Or sometimes they'll put D period, J period, whatever their name is, or D space J space, whatever the name is. By doing it that way, they've just created 3 different accounts, and by creating 3 different accounts now they're not sure how they're going to get paid or where the money's going to come from because it's 3 separate accounts they have to keep track of.

That's exactly right. And one thing that I find pretty, pretty often is you go and register— I'm registering a song for Dallas, but he's got 3 other writers. Well, they go and register the song and they put in his name improperly or put in, you know, um Matter of fact, we literally got a call. Pooh Bear, one of the best songwriters. Yeah, love Pooh Bear. We did a call. He is on DAD Distro, which is Dallas's new distribution company, and he called us. We had a Zoom call with him yesterday, and he's like, hey, can y'all go in? I'm not able to change the metadata. I need to put a period after the Y on my writer's registration, his metadata. And you have no idea how important that one thing is.

Yes.

That one piece of information is so vitally important. And making sure that, you know, he— everyone is credited properly. Just the spelling is everything. And that's why I love, you know, they assign what is called an IPI number, and that is your personal identification number. That's your Social Security number as a writer, that IPI number. You want that IPI number on everything because they cannot mess it up unless it's just human error, but you will always be credited. It's the same way with the ISRC codes and the ISWC codes. Those go with your song. Um, so yeah, I, I love that.

Um, I'd also like to add for artists, especially newer artists, where you may be young and you're sleeping on the sofa at your mom's house or a friend's house, if you move please make sure you update your address on all of your accounts because the bulk of the money that's sitting in the black box is because they cannot find the artist.

That's exactly right.

And once a year I do go, I do go in and I do look in the black box and I'll search for my friends and I'll search for my clients and see if there's any money in there for them. And I do that because it could be something as simple as they sent a check and it came back and they still do it old school. They still send out checks. So, so they can get returned in the mail and then it's sitting in the black box and you're not paying attention because it's only twice a year or 4 times a year that you're receiving the checks. So you're not noticing that you're missing one because you're not on top of your business. Right. And it could be something as simple as your address is incorrect.

That is exactly right. I think if there were one piece of kind of Advice that I could give is, you know, having someone that you trust thoroughly with your money or with your business, like finding a person that you can trust to go in and register and make sure if you've got an address change that that address is in there, that um, you know, that those changes are made. It is so vitally important. Um, and, you know, these guys, they, they come in and they get so big so quick.

Yes.

Um, you know, I've seen it, you know, even the Migos, you know, I felt like they came out of nowhere even though they worked in this business for so, so many years. For so long, right? And I think that having the, having, you know, somebody like Danny Zook, who, you know, kind of helps manage their publishing and their tour manager and a lot of other things that Danny does, but Danny's worked side by side with Dallas, you know, for many, many years on making sure that you know, he is keeping up with and making changes. And, you know, he'll tell me, just don't— when you log in, just don't make any changes. And it's like, you know, it's because everything has been so set and we just don't— like, one little change can throw something off. And so, you know, we watch that quite a bit. We watch that a lot. But find somebody. And there's really two other really important things when it comes to copyrights. For younger artists, they don't understand trust and setting up a trust that has your compositions and your music and everything kind of in that trust. And then also having, God forbid anything happened. Nobody knew that Takeoff would, you know, get shot at night and pass away. The, you know, one thing that I can, you know, tell everybody, the minute you are in this and you can truly afford to just hire an attorney, you know, a trust attorney to start a trust. Start it. Start it for your kids, start it for your family so that your intellectual property is actually protected. The other thing is, in a will, it is vital that there is a stipulation for your copyrights in that will. Most people don't know that. But you have to have— you have to have it outlined in a will.

Absolutely. And, and it's your job. This is part of your task as an artist, is to learn what's necessary and what to do and how to protect yourself. And there's so many people in this industry who have a financial interest in separating you from your ownership that it's really on you to protect yourself.

Absolutely right. Absolutely right. One thing, I manage the Isaac Hayes catalog, the illustrious, incredible Isaac Hayes catalog. And I know, you know, Ike III, Isaac Hayes III is phenomenal human and so brilliant in this and how we've been able to— so I've literally been working since 2012 to file the termination for his father with Jeannie Mason. Jeannie taught me, I'm telling you, the education. And I know she would, God rest her soul, she passed away in 2016. And she taught me so much that I'm now able to go and share and you know, teach others the way that she taught me. But terminations and reversions, over the last 3, almost 3 years, myself along with my team have done about $190 million in acquisitions, in publishing acquisitions. But in all of in all of our dealings, I make sure that there is an automatic termination reversion at the end of the term for my clients. Some don't care. They could care less. They're just looking at, I need the money, give me the money. You know, you go, you've got a catalog of songs and it's going to make you $8 to $10 million and they don't care. I care. I care about your children. I care about where this stuff goes. I care about your family. And it's because so many— let's go back to Motown and Berry Gordy. Berry took all the publishing, you know what I mean? Like, these guys got their writer's share, but Smokey Robinson never made a dime of publishing on Tears of a Clown. And then we're able to go in and say, okay, we can now terminate that copyright. Let's terminate and let's get it back. So anything prior to 1978 is a 56-year copyright term. Anything post-'78 is 35 years. So right now we're in the termination window from 1988 to about '93. So there's a— there's really— you can do it 10 years prior to when the song is— there's a 10-year window to terminate. And then it's 5 years from the— I mean, it's 35 years if you're post-'78 from the date of creation that you can— that song will revert, but you have to file the terminations.

You can do that up to 10 years in advance?

10 years in advance.

Interesting. So I'm working right now with Warren G and he has Regulate, which Regulate next week will be 30 years old. So he could actually file all of his termination paperwork today for a song that will terminate 5 years from now.

Absolutely. He absolutely can. And I, like I said, I work with, I work with the, and manage with Isaac Hayes, his father's catalog, and started in 2012. His father had over 600 songs in the catalog. I have 429 songs left to terminate. I work on them. Yeah, I work on them daily. And to make sure that, you know, we go in and we terminate on time, we file the right paperwork. I will say this, I am not an attorney, but I do attorney work. I do all of this to try and mitigate some of the cost. I'm a lot cheaper than $750 an hour. But I am able to mitigate some of the costs to be able to— so that our clients can go in and easily do this at a fairly reasonable amount, cost-wise, because it does cost. It costs to terminate. But once you have that, and we've done one of the joys in working with Isaac Hayes and the Hayes heirs was we were able to go into Primary Wave and work a name, image, and likeness deal for the Isaac Hayes catalog. And so we're working with them to be able to— we— Hold On, I'm Coming, one of Isaac's biggest hits, for Sam and Dave. Yeah, huge. And we got that back this past year. Congratulations. Thank you. Huge song. And it has been— I think I have probably cleared that song 150 times just since November. It's an incredible song and so many people love it. And it is a huge moneymaker for sure. And, um, so we're happy to be working with, with, you know, Primary Wave, and we're working on, you know, documentaries. And I mean, there's just all kinds of stuff that's going to be hot buttered sold, you know. You think about, think about that. And it's funny, Isaac, um, made a Yesterday did a— if y'all don't follow him on Instagram, I think it's izk3 on Instagram. And you know, they've listed 100, you know, Apple came out with their 100, you know, best albums or whatever, um, and Hot Butter Soul wasn't on there. But yet I believe it was 17 albums that were in the top 100 had songs that were sampled from Isaac Hayes, literally from the music that he created. So how can Hot Butter Soul not be—

not be on there?

Like, come on, you know?

And because it's opinion, and it just depends on the opinion of the person who—

Ebro and whoever else at Apple Music. And, you know, but you've got to look at the source. Look at where these guys are, you know. Snoop is a— is huge. He, he loves Isaac, huge fan. So, you know, we have, you know, 300 unreleased masters right now that we are, um, working with producers. We're gonna, you know, do, um, private writing camps that producers in both LA and Atlanta can come in. I know, I'm so excited about it.

Brilliant.

That can, you know, take these unreleased masters and be able to use them. And Isaac Hayes gets credit as a producer. So it's creating an entirely different set of income and publishing rights for his heirs. So it just continues. Yeah, exactly.

It just continues on.

What about the master? I'm sorry, say it again. I said it brings me such joy. I just get so happy from it. I really do.

What about masters? Do they revert as well?

They do. So they— a lot of people don't think about the masters. One of my, you know, biggest things in going— if you're going into a label deal situation, make sure that you negotiate your masters. I've seen them come back in as short as 10 years. I've seen them 6 years. You have the negotiating right when you go in. If they don't, it's basically the same as copyright, 35 years. And I could be completely and totally off on that, but you're dead right. Yeah, it follows the same kind of, you know, copyright ownership. Yeah. And the same process.

You know what I noticed that's different though? I noticed when, and I'm going to use Paul McCartney as an example. When he was coming up on the 35th year anniversary, it was about 2 or 3 years before, he immediately filed suit against his label to get his masters back because he knew it was going to be a fight. Because he's Paul McCartney, he could do that. But he, he didn't even— he didn't even send notice. He just filed a lawsuit, which is incredible. And that tells me how challenging it is to get back ownership.

It is. It is very challenging. Yeah. I think you've got artists like T.I. that own a lot of their masters. And I think it's one of the things that I think is brilliant that he was able to go in and negotiate that and negotiate—

Because he saw the value.

He saw the value. And, and that's what, you know, these artists, they look at, you know, I want to be TikTok famous. No, it's like, if there's anything I can tell you, you know, a lot, a lot of time I've, I've worked on 45 albums. Of those, 20-something of them had plaques. And I don't have a plaque on my wall, but I have a phone number in my phone for the artists that I worked.

Exactly.

One of the things is not being famous. I've always been behind the scenes. I've always been the one that's doing the work that actually makes these songs where they're able to come out and make these artists and producers money. But it was never about the accolades, the plaques. It was building relationships.

It was building relationships.

Yep. I did, I want to say, Maya. I did— we probably did 40 songs, you know, and, um, she would come and literally just record with Tricky for weeks at a time. She's one of, to me, one of the most underrated artists.

She is a brilliant artist, nicest human beings on Earth.

On Earth. On Earth. And, um, you know, I loved her and loved building that relationship with her. T-Boz and I are best friends and I talked to her last night. I talked to her all the time and it's encouraging. I'm always looking out for her to make sure, hey, we've got to do this. I want to get into her publishing and making sure, and where are you and making sure that they have new addresses so that she could get checks. And it's always staying on top of those things. Things.

Exactly.

But then also, you know, the reversions. There's a lot of songs— if we're in the night, you know, we're in the late '80s, we're coming up, some of the biggest hip-hop records are coming up for termination.

Lottie Godden, we love to party.

Get at your girl, get at your girl. Um, you know, it is, um, it, it is an arduous process to literally, you know, you've got to pull notice and notify everybody, not just, you know, the Copyright Office, but if it's a Warner Chappell, if it's a Universal, if it's a Sony, you know, you've got to make sure everyone knows, hey, I'm filing, you know, for this. This is my intent. I'm terminating your ownership and it needs to transfer, you know, to me. So I don't know how many hundreds of songs that I've done at this point, but yeah, we're, working, you know, right now I'm working on 429 Isaac Hayes songs.

Wow, amazing.

It's amazing, amazing copyrights. You know, you look at it and you just think of all the music that he produced. It is just— and then we're sitting on this gold mine of these, you know, 300 unreleased masters. It's just incredible.

Exactly. I have, I have one last question for you, and thank you for doing this. Like, you, you've— you're always so generous with your time, and I appreciate you so much.

I am here.

I'm so sorry.

I love that. Me too.

But my last question is the valuation of publishing right now is sky high. Can you give us an idea of why that is? Why, why they're selling for 12 times to 20 times their value?

My, I will say, you know, people come to me and, um, entrust their catalogs to me and for many reasons, but one is my buyers and publishers that I work with, they know the quality of what, you know, the actual presentation, you know, is a lot to do with how somebody, you know, how you present this music and what— How organized. How organized and what they can do. When I go to do a deal, When I do the valuation, I look at, I take a CSV file of all of the statements for the last 3 years and I look at that and I say, okay, what are the trends? Where are we going? Where are we going with AI at this point? Because you have to take all those things into consideration. How many songs has this record How many times has it been sampled? Like, you look at all these things and you say, okay, and then how long has that record been out? A record that's been out 10, 15 years is going to get a way higher multiple than one that's been out 3 to 5 years. You're going to be on the very low side. I can't You know, it is intellectual property. They're, they're buying these. I think a lot of the buyers buy in hopes that it'll go up, that the usage will go up and they'll make more money than they're spending. You look at— yes, you look at all— I mean, take Isaac Hayes, for instance, and the 17 songs that were sampled that are in the top 100. You know, albums. It is— that's what they're buying these for. They're buying it to put this music and yes, to be able to have the sample, to be able to interpolate, or to be able to create a derivative work that they can then assign another 35-year, um, you know, copyright on. And, and that's what these companies, they're, they're hoping for. Um, and that's why they're buying it with its increased value in the marketplace. And what it— and, and, you know, it's not a bad thing. It's, it's absolutely— I, look, it's what I do. Um, it, it's what I do on a day-in and day-out basis is get catalogs, evaluate catalogs, and say, okay, my average is about a 17, so that means I'm getting anywhere between a you know, a 12, 13, and we've gotten as high as 21.

Wow.

Yeah. And the, the Isaac Hayes catalog, a 21. And you look at it, you go, why is this catalog so valuable? Look how many times it's been sampled. Yeah, it's been produced.

It is produced in film and TV and streaming like the— it's, it's It's making money.

It is making money. It's a moneymaker. It is. It is making money hand over fist. And I think that producers and writers, when you go in to produce a song, I want you to think about what is this going to look like 20 years down the road. We're looking at songs that he wrote in the '60s, '70s, you know. And of course he wrote after that in the '80s and the '90s and even up until 2010 before he passed. We've got songs that are all there. But in, in creation today, um, I think that producers sometimes, especially these kind of, um, overnight people that just come in and produce these songs that are not going to have the value. I encourage you to produce songs that are going to have value because that's what's going to create years down the road what your family is going to be able to eat off of and come into and be able to live off of.

Generational wealth.

Generational wealth. And that, you know, if there's anything that I would say that I want to be my legacy, is, you know, coming in and doing these deals but allowing our clients that generational wealth. I think it is so vitally important, you know. And if, if, you know, you're lucky enough to be my friend, I make sure that happens, you know. And then for clients, I make sure that happens when they come to me. And our— like I said, our buyers, the publishers and the buyers that I work with, um, they expect nothing less. A lot of them don't— a lot of clients don't care that it's another 35 years that they're signing it away. But I like to do lesser time. I like to say, okay, give me a 20 on this and you get it for 25 years, or you get it for 30 years, but not 35. And then negotiate that termination, right? Exactly. You get what you negotiate. You get what you negotiate, and it can either happen or not, but at least you try. At least you try. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much.

I love you too. Thank you so much for doing this, and thank you. I'm down 60 pounds today. And just so the world knows, this is my mentor for losing weight. This is the person that I saw lose a lot of weight and tell me, Wendy, you can do this too. It's not as hard as you think. I'll help you.

Yes.

And, and I was very bad at asking for help or even receiving help. So not only did you help me lose weight, and by the way, I have 35 more pounds to go. Not only did you help me lose weight, but you helped me learn to accept help from somebody. So you gave me such value. You have no clue what you've done for me. Thank you.

That makes me want to cry. But I, I, you know, I have been on— I've been on a journey. I, um, 2014 found cancer. I had breast cancer. Um, you know, 9 years in remission. I beat it. The, the chemo, the radiation, the drugs like killed me. And, you know, I found myself on this, you know, lose 20 pounds, gain 25, lose 30.

Exactly.

It was just this—

what we all know— yo-yo.

Yes, yo-yo. The hormonal effect that the cancer drugs had on me. And I started my journey of really saying, I'm getting a hold of this. I went to the doctor, I had a, you know, blood work, and he's like, your A1C is at 6.9. I'm like, I am not going out like this. Like, we are getting a hold of this, right? And so I stepped on the scale this morning. I'm 93 pounds in, you know, a year and a half. So, yeah.

So proud of you.

Thank you. And I, if I can inspire, you know, my sister's lost 57 pounds now. My aunt's like, you know, everybody's kind of on this journey and I love it. It, you know, you are so welcome. I could not, I could not have found anybody who was more, um, deserving than this moment of us coming together. And you inspire me daily.

I'm so glad.

I hope you know that. I truly— thank you. And just for those— so Wendy and I met on an airplane in coming back from New York and I had these big wings that I had taken for a photo shoot for Soleil. It was when AirTran— I sat down and I looked over and I said, "You're Wendy Day. Like, I know who you are." And I was working with Tricky Stewart. It had to be 2001, 2002. Soleil, we were shooting her album cover in New York with Jonathan Mannion.

I love him.

And I just remember meeting you and saying, I've got to be your friend. But it really wasn't until like the past year that we— the synergy just came so far around and full circle for us to, to really connect. And, um, you are an amazing human that has given so much to this community, the music community. Bringing to light injustices and trying to make a fair way for artists, for our artists. Yeah. And it's my passion. And it is mine. And making sure, educating. I'm serving all.

That's why we get along so well.

Yeah.

Because we both have the same mission in life. And that's rare. It's rare that two people get to align.

It is. And, um, for those that don't know, uh, there is an amazing School of Music and College of Design at Georgia Tech, um, that is all about music and the arts. Um, I serve on the board of directors. I did not know until I was here for 28 years. I've been on the board now a little over a year, and I did not realize that there was a school of music that give what they can and do what they do. It is, it's not just an engineering school, it's not just a tech school, even though that is in the— it is musicians and jazz, it is jazz ensembles and bands, and, you know, it is so cool, and I'm getting involved on every level. So think about, uh, School of Music if somebody's wanting to go. Think about this.

I love that.

And yeah, it's just, it's amazing. I love that I'm over there and I'm able to at least train a new set of, of up-and-coming engineers and producers and writers, songwriters, and artists. You know, there's so many artists that are there. So thank you so much for having me.

Thank you so much for doing this. I appreciate it. I love you to death. Thank you for being—

I love you too. You are so welcome. Thank you for being mine.