Sample Clearance | Wendy Day Interviews Deborah Mannis-Gardner

Debra Manis Gardner! Yay! Debra Manis Gardner's in the house. This is Wendy Day, and today we're going to talk about sample clearance. And I have been promising you guys forever that I would learn how to edit video so that I could start interviewing my friends. And here we have Debra Manis Gardner. Debra, how are you?

I'm awesome, thank you.

Yay! Debra owns DMG Clearances DMG Clearances Clear Samples. And Deborah, how did you get started in the music industry?

Uh, I started in the world of doing music videos, and that started me with a company that did just clearances, and this was back in 1990. And I said, yeah, and so I saw that there was a, there was a huge gap in handling sample clearances and So I asked to jump into the arena. There was just Madeline Smith on the West Coast handling N.W.A. and Eazy-E, and Hope Carr and her husband Larry handling Tommy Boy. I remember this. Yeah, and then I jumped in with both my feet because there were no rules about it. So I was working for a company that said, let's do it. I think it's the right thing. I'm fascinated, love the music. As much as I was actually a punk rocker and a punk rocker.

When I met you, you were very much into punk. I love that.

Still am. But, you know, punk and hip-hop and rap, same thing. Yeah, fighting the man.

Exactly, kicking the doors. I love it.

So that's how, that's how I started. And so I've been doing it in my 27th year. Wow.

What are some, what are some albums that you've cleared? Like, what are some projects that you've gotten to work on?

Wow. I mean, you know, I handled Biggie. I handled, uh, Kendrick. I've handled, you know, I did it all. Bad Boy, right? So I did all the Bad Boy regime.

Eminem.

Eminem. Marshall is my guy. Then, you know, when, um, EPMD, you know, and those guys, and the DAWSE FX, and then they discovered Reggie, handled Redman and Method Man, Wu-Tang Clan. So I handled all the Loud Records, you know, Big Pun and Xzibit and oh my gosh, I mean, my website doesn't even, I think, list all the stuff that I've handled because it's so many years of rap artists that people might not even remember. Lost Boys. Right. Oh my gosh.

Bad Boy, all of Bad Boy. The Sample King.

Yeah, Cash Money I handle, Big Beat Records when they were around.

Oh wow.

Mafia, Lil' Kim. Oh, so before there's Nicki Minaj, there's Lil' Kim. Yes, I handled her and oh my goodness, I mean, just, you know, when there was Virgin Records. So when there was, you know, when there were more than 3 labels and we had like 20 labels, right? I pretty much handled everything, you know, Digable Planets. Leaders of the New School, Tribe Called Quest. I used to handle Jive Records, you know, during that heyday when Shaquille O'Neal had an album. I did Shaquille O'Neal, Kobe Bryant. Kobe Bryant had an album. I did that.

Wow.

Yeah, so, and then, so now you've got, and then it was just, it wasn't just hip-hop and rap that sampled. You know, I've worked with U2. I've worked with Michael Jackson, Mariah Carey, Jennifer Lopez. B-52s, Rolling Stones. I mean, sampling is not just an art or a technique or style that's just in the hip-hop and rap community. And then when I listen to my alt-rock radio station, Sirius Radio, and you listen to contemporary music, a lot of times you're hearing similar sounding stuff.

Right.

But I'm going to make this statement, but I think it's, you know, racial in that no one would come after a white alternative rock or pop artist as much as rap, although people would say— But he's an artist. But you know, Robin Thicke crossed over into that Black music community, and I was tied to it, and nobody liked Robin Thicke, and who was also my client, and I think he was innocent, and I look forward to the appealing of that case.

So when somebody samples another artist, they have to clear it legally?

You have to— legally you have to. Um, and there's no such thing as a needle drop, and there's no such thing as, you know, like the 1-second or 2-second rule. Um, if you lift or sample someone else's song, you need to get permission, even if you're giving your music away for free. It doesn't matter. Doesn't matter.

That's the biggest misconception I think amongst the people I work with is they think, oh, I'm putting it up for free on DatPiff, I don't have to clear the sample.

Bullshit. You know what, I'm— let's put it this way. I'm really, really poor. I have no money and I'm super hungry, so I stole that grape because I was really hungry and I needed to eat it. Was it still theft?

Yeah, absolutely.

There you go.

You had a good reason, but of course it's still theft, right?

So it's, it's the same theory. And then you've got all these mixtapes that are coming out. And back in the day when you had mixtapes, it was audio cassette tapes being sold in the trunk of a car. But the labels weren't as upset. A mixtape is something that is an audio configuration of some kind, but it's available on the internet. And we know once something's on the internet, you can't pull it off the internet.

We can't. It's out there.

And so it's out there. And so it really is deemed a value. And that's why they're going after— mixtapes and they're going after what you're deeming something free. But let me go even one step further. It's not free. You're making it as a means of promoting yourself.

So you're gaining benefit.

Is that you are gaining benefits? So it's not free. You're gaining something from it. And so it— I, I, I, and, and I can— don't get me wrong, I can, I can sit on that fence and I can jump on either side. And that's why they don't use me anymore as an expert witness. Right. Because I can fight almost any side of an argument.

I believe that.

Kind of expensive. But no, the last time I did it, I was like, you know, telling both attorneys I can fight both sides of the case if I wanted to. Right. There is no right or wrong.

I'm sorry?

Sometimes there is no right or wrong. Right. It's just— it's very gray. It's gray.

So what is actually sample clearance?

Okay, so the word samples has, has evolved since it came about. Oh, because now we hear the words interpolation. Oh, you know, uh, a sample initially was lifting a portion of a previously recorded song and incorporating it into a new song.

Okay.

And so always think of that as the sound recording being sampled. And then remember, if you're using the sound recording, you also have to clear the publishing because they're tied together. There's the master side and publishing side of the song, and so you have to clear both.

Um, and the record label usually owns the master, and the writer, or whoever the writer did a deal with for their publishing, owns the publishing. Is that correct?

Well, but you go to the publisher, you never go to the writer. Okay. You have to go to the publisher for consent. So that's one part of publishing. That's one part of sampling, when they've lifted something and they've incorporated it, and then you need to get permission for that. Other kind, which is like the Robin Thicke thing, kind of but not, is an interpolation. That's a new word that they came up with back, I think, in 1994, '95. That word started coming up. I remember that. Interpolation is when you're just using the composition and you've re-recorded or re-sung the lyrics.

Got it.

You haven't used the master. Now what's going on in like 2014, '15, '16 is, you know, people use the word, you know, influence, similarities, all that kind of stuff, where I argue that's not an interpolation, that's not a sample of the composition.

It's inspiration.

It's inspiration, and then we should start looking and arguing about, you know, Led Zeppelin and the Beatles and, you know, a lot of rock and roll, because you only have a certain number of notes in a scale and— and chords. Exactly. And so my argument I have with people now is when they use an interpolation and use lyrics, when do we deem that as those lyrics actually being copyrighted to a specific a song and can you find prior art? Because if there are words in poetry and there are words in books, people don't claim that as prior art or copyright that, but when it's a song, they do. Right. Which is really fascinating if you think about it. You know, there's just so many lyrics that people are like, oh, I'm familiar with those lyrics from such and such song, so that's copyrightable as that person's song. And sometimes they say, well, let's call Dr. Ferrari. Is it really? Is it? You know, I like to argue that.

Absolutely.

It is. Sometimes things are cleared just for safety's sake.

Right, right, right, right. Because you just don't want to get sued down the road. You don't want that bullshit. Um, and sometimes sample clearance cases are settled by labels because it's cheaper to pay somebody to go away than is to fight something in court.

A label can never settle something without artist consent or writer consent, right? So they don't. So no, a label— when a label gets a claim letter, they immediately turn around and send a letter off to the lawyer of the artist and to the publisher of the copyright. But a label can never settle without consent from everyone involved. Thank God.

Um, how do you— how, how, how do you clear a sample? Like, what is the process? That you go through to do your job?

My process is, you know, when a client comes to me and says, I've sampled "Day and Night" by Al B. Sure, my first thing is I'm going to research the song, see who the writers are, see who the publishing is. The publishing is 100% Sony ATV, and, um, now I just went blank as to Al B. Sure's label. I think it was Warner's? And so I would research it, and then I would have my client send me a copy of the new song with the sample in it, with information, you know, who's releasing it, his new title, description of the sample, get all that stuff. Because the people on the receiving end at the publishing company label are so overwhelmed, so inundated, that you need to hand it to them on a silver platter, right? You need to make it easy, make it— to make it easy for them. They don't have time to really evaluate what it is. You need to tell them what it is and where it's used.

Got it.

Then they have to turn around and send it out for writer consent or artist consent, or if it's, you know, if it's Warner's, they might have to go to Atlantic for consent. If it's Universal, they might have to go to Republic or Def Jam for consent. You know, every— they have like these main people that you go to, then they have to go out to a whole bunch of other people for consent. So my job is to help facilitate that to the right people with the right information to make it as easy as possible for them.

Got it.

And when they come back to try to negotiate the most fair deal, I'm not going to get the lowest quote, I'm going to get the most fair quote, and that's who I am as a clearance agent. And if you don't like it, then you can use someone else. Got it. But if you've used a baseline that's used throughout the whole song, don't tell me that it has a value of 10 or 15% of the new composition. You know, if it's a bass line, it might be like 33 1/3 to 50%, depending on what other elements you've added. And on the master side, don't tell me that you only want to pay like 1% PPD or 1 cent when it's a bass line and it's the body of the song and has a greater value of like maybe 3% or 4%. That's who I am. I'm going to make sure that you get a fair deal. On the flip side, if on the receiving end the publisher says I want 75% of the publishing, I'm going to battle on your behalf to get that as low as possible. And that's my job as the clearance agent. But then after I get the approvals in and the quotes in, everyone thinks, oh, that's it, I'm done. No. We've got to get label copy together. We've got to get splits together. We've got to deliver all this stuff. We've got to request contracts. We've got to make payments. On the publishing side, we've got to gather, you know, if the publisher took 33 1/3, I need to find out from you, well, who are the names of the new writers of your song? If the producer did it and you did it, it's only 2 people, are you guys each splitting it 33 1/3 and 33 3/4? 'Cause it's got to equal 100, can't be off by 0.01. And what's the publishing company and are you registered and what's the PRO? And then I have to deliver that to the publisher so they can register, you can register, and we do contracts. Right.

And this is all before the music comes out. This is all before the record hits the streets, right?

You have to get the quotes done before it hits the streets. Um, we don't make payments before it hits the streets anymore because when we used to, and then if it didn't hit the street, the labels and publishers didn't return the money. So surprise. So now we're kind of like, fuck you, you don't get the money in advance, right? So it's like, I want to get paid prior to release. I'm like, no, No, please, please, 30 to 60 days, come on. Just like anything else.

What happens if I submit, like let's say I sampled Anita Baker, who is infamously difficult to clear. What happens if I choose to sample something and then I bring it to you and you go and it's not clearable, then what happens?

Well, if you come to me with Anita Baker, I'm gonna say, what the fuck? Because Anita Baker's known for not being available for— and always has been known for that, and has been known for that for 20-some years, right? Um, and so I'm gonna tell you, you have to start over and you need to scrap that song. That's what I'm gonna tell you. And if you release it, be prepared for a cease and desist.

Could I do an interpolation instead of an actual sample?

She wrote the song? No.

Right.

If it's Anita Baker song that she did not write, then it's a possibility, but we have to see who the writers are.

Gotcha. Gotcha. Um, are you also a resource for producers? Like, can a producer build a relationship with you and find out what's easy to clear and what's not easy to clear as he's choosing samples? Or does that become a nightmare?

If I knew he's going to hire me, I mean, I can't keep doing that for free. You know, I can do research for like $150. I think that's what it says on my website, my email. I don't even know what my fees are anymore. Um, it— and I do give people advice, but then if I find out that they use someone else to do their work, don't ever contact me again, right?

Yeah, it's called burning a bridge. We discussed that in one of my last videos.

Yeah, yeah, I'm, I'm a bridge that you don't ever want to burn because, uh I've had clients send work to me and another parent's agent to see who could get it done faster. Really? And I sent a check back with all my work and said, don't ever contact me again.

Yeah.

I mean, this was about 10, 15 years ago, but yeah, never.

So is sample clearance something that an artist can do on their own? Is it something where you need a sample clearance person to negotiate? That has relationships? Do you see where I'm going with this?

I am, because it was a good question, because I have many people who try to do it on their own and then come to me to clean it up. Right. Because they're like, oh, I sent this request to Sony ATV months ago, but so-and-so is not responding to me. I'm like, did you submit it correctly? You know, it's a skill. And you know what, when I'm dealing with, you know, I don't know, Madeline Smith, who is now at Universal Music, I don't have one request on her desk, I have 20 requests on her desk. So when I call her and ask how her new granddaughter is, I can also simultaneously ask her the status of my 20 requests and putting it in order which ones I need that day versus by Friday or by Monday or what have you. Right. So it's also relationships and—

It's very much relationships.

It is, it's relationships, it's making sure that they have— It's knowledge.

Yeah, you know, like, I find that, that— and, and this is what I call you for a lot. Um, I work with all independents, so I'm not as big a fan of sampling as you are. You see it as an art form. I see it as a drain on the artist's financial ownership. Um, so, um, very often I'll call you to find out, you know, how, how costly might this be? Like, if we sample Biggie, you know, how expensive might that be? And you'll give me a ballpark of what that is, and then from the business side, we can make a decision as to whether it's worth it. You know, does it play such a big role in the song that it's worth that expense, or is it just a little blurb that's at the very beginning of the song that doesn't make or break the song? And your knowledge is, for me, what has so much value, not to mention your organizational skills of being able to follow this through a process that I would never want to do or could do.

Well, yeah, I mean, I do put together budgets a lot of times for people so that when they have a whole album of samples, we can go through it so they can get an idea of what it's going to cost them. Then I'll say, you know, if you're indie, how many of these can you replay so that you're eliminating two-thirds of the cost, right? And turn them into interpolations. Then you go through each one of those and say, well, if you can do an interpolation, can you change it enough so that it's not even a sample versus what you need to keep in there? And so I will do that for people, and I do ask for a fee for that because it does take up my time.

Sure.

It's only a couple hundred dollars or what have you, but, um, I'm not gonna have people give up sampling or interpolating if it really gives that sound to the song. Now, more and more publishers, I think, are being accommodating. You know, most of them charge us like non-recoupable fee of like $1,500 to $2,000, and if there are multiple publishers, that can add up.

Wow, that's great. I mean, that's really dropped because when I was coming up, it started at like $5,000 to $7,500. —to sample.

Right. They've dropped it to these non-recoupable fees, but they don't prorate it. So if you've got 3 publishers and they each want $2,000, that's $6,000. But if you've got a small indie, we try to get it— maybe it's $500 a publisher so that it's only $1,500 all in. Gotcha. On the master side, Sony— listen up, people— Sony usually denies independent artists to sample their recordings. So try to avoid using Sony masters unless the policy changes. You know, Universal, I think, is more open to that, maybe because they're looking at the artist as a possibility of signing them. I don't know. And Warner has been really cool about that as well. I think maybe they're— they look at it as maybe a possibility as a launching board for them, for them to look at new artists. Right. I don't really understand why Sony does something like that.

I don't either. You know, I was on a panel in Tampa in June and there was a representative from BMG who was giving out, um, MP3 sticks to the producers in the audience to encourage them to sample. And it was part of the BMG publishing catalog. And, and I thought that was really, really cool. But then I was looking at her like, well, you're giving out suggestions of who to sample, but isn't Sony the hardest label to clear a sample with?

Like, it was almost BMG is not Sony. Oh, it's not? OK. BMG is a completely different company. I didn't realize that. They are balls-to-the-wall amazing. They have structured stuff for the sampling of the compositions. They have reached out their hand to do distribution now for indies. Like, Loopy Fiasco is being distributed for his new album through BMG. I've got a couple of clients that are going to be distributed independently through BMG. They are the new company, and if you want, I can talk to— have you talk to maybe Mark Robinson, who is over there now, who is just amazing. I would love to. And they have music libraries of Soundalike Soundman stuff, so, which I've had clients sample from. Very cool. They are—

I think they just did a deal with Jason Aldean on the countryside, BMG. I didn't realize they weren't part of Sony though. I'm so glad you said that.

Yeah, no, this is a completely, uh, yeah, completely different— I don't know country music. I don't, I don't, I, I don't either. Yeah, country music fell on me.

Apparently it's a big enough deal though that like it hit my alerts on my phone from, um, one of the music newsletters. So apparently it's a big deal. I don't know.

BMG's doing some amazing stuff, um, buying up catalogs, also doing great stuff with music videos. Like, uh, music videos meaning shooting productions of shows and getting it out there and doing stuff. I deal with Ed Rizzano on a regular basis. There's a great team of people at BMG, and they're doing some amazing stuff. And I was worried because they were growing so fast. I was like, ah, shit. But no, they're doing a really good job. OK, I think that's Zach Katz at BMG. Yeah, I don't know Zach, but yeah, it is Zach.

Yeah, yeah, he came up in the same era that we did.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, but they're doing some great stuff.

Cool, thank you. Um, how do producers get paid when they make a song with a rapper? How do they get paid?

Producers, if you're listening, they are You are just not doing the right things and not being looked after and need some serious education.

Um, let's educate them. Tell them.

Well, you know, that could be a whole nother half hour.

Um, and you know what, save it and we'll do a whole nother half hour. Do you have a half hour?

I do. Let's come back.

Let's come back because I feel like I don't do enough for producers. So let's come back and do just a session for producers.

Because I think producers are ripped off, not taken care of, not educated, and just want their beats used.

Absolutely. They just, they just, that's all they want is to be heard, and, um, they're killing the industry. Let's, you know what, let's do a whole section for producers because I feel like I don't do enough for them. Okay. Um, what is, what's been your hardest clearance?

Wow.

Hardest as in challenging, like the one that after you cleared it you were like, oh man. And it could be hard because the deadline was short. It could be hard because you got, say, Sting to clear a song when he never did before.

I mean, I've had a lot of those.

Like, you know, getting Sting cleared for Puff, for Missing You, was, it was You know, that was the first time ever he ever, ever cleared. Ever.

The hard part was he was in his castle during a writing session and having to get through to his people to him at his castle to make it happen. Yes, that was great people. Linda Shelgren was at Irving Music at the time. Suzanne Coffin, who ended up coming to work for me, but she was at Irving Music to work on that. I actually just looked— I have all my papers from Biggie, all my Biggie stuff. I even have the newspaper. Just when he died, I called you that night. Yeah. Did you really? Yeah, we talked that night he died. Yeah. I was in Chicago. Yeah, yeah, we did. Yeah. That was a big one. That was a big one. Yeah, I just— I reread the paperwork because that was a really tough one. But Miss Ross was very difficult and has not been cleared since Biggie, and they wanted to pull out of the deal when Biggie was assassinated. And I have to use the word assassinated, not murder. Right. That's just my opinion. She wanted to pull out of the deal, and I wouldn't let her because we had all the paperwork signed. And so they did agree to keep to the deal. So that was pretty difficult. But I mean, challenges-wise, I mean, one of Drake's projects, like, they gave it to me on a Friday and said they needed it cleared by a Saturday. I mean, he's got the nicest team of people. Mr. Morgan and Future are really kind and nice people. And so when they tease me with stuff like that, it's a challenge. And I'm OK, because they're not disrespectful. They're really, really good and sweet people to me when I work on stuff like that. I can't explain, on J. Cole's last album, Abraham, his manager, it was the week before Thanksgiving and he was on the phone helping me with deals, reaching out to Japan, so kind-hearted in working with me personally to get the clearances done. Kendrick Lamar, we had the product 3 months before the label did, goosebumps of material which I think was even better than what was actually released. And so that was a challenge because we wanted that difference.

Why would, why would there be a difference between what's submitted to you and then what finally comes out that the people hear? Is that budgetary?

There's a lot of stuff. I mean, samples get pulled, so I have stuff that with samples in it that never made the cut. Um, that's one thing. And then I'm not A&R, and I'm not This is why, you know, I am a music supervisor on some stuff, but this is why I really don't choose a music supervisor. What I think is good sounding, what other people think is good sounding, are two different things. And Kendrick's album prior to the release had a really rough sound to it. Okay. And what was released was smooth, was smoothed over in production. And I liked the really rough sound, didn't you? Yeah, I really did. So, but that's me.

It's not too polished.

Yeah, yeah, I like that too. That, that, that's me, you know. What do I know? Like, when Mase came out, I was just like, what the fuck, this is the worst sounding thing. He's off-key. Why are these girls swooning? And then he did phenomenal back in whatever. So yeah, I know, I've got the thing in my wall, but I mean, it's like, what, what do I know what people are gonna like? You know, I, I don't know what people are gonna like. You don't necessarily understand. That's why we test music. What's not going to be a hit. I know what I like personally because I find some of these writers are like poets and some of these producers are so creative in what they do and when they mix things together and are unique. So that's just my personal thing that I love. Challenges-wise, here's a little ditty, here's a little story. Diddy, pun intended. I had met with Business and Legal Affairs at Warner Chappell saying that Led Zeppelin had opened the doors to be sampled. And we went to a Warner Chappell team of writers and artists, Junior Mafia, and Un— remember Un Rivera? So they had come up with doing this whole Led Zeppelin sample, and they brought it to Puff to see what Puff thought. Puff loved it. Puff took it to Jimmy, and it ended up being a duet with Jimmy, if we all recall.

Nice. Yeah, it's a great song.

Great song.

What were you— what was your most fun clearance? Do you have any like really fun memories of clearing stuff, like where you just really enjoyed it?

Again, Kendrick was a lot of fun. Really good people, good lawyer, good management, good team of people. Working with Marshall, working on Marshall's album has always been a pleasure. Again, good management. I work with Tracy. Really just— It's a lot, yeah. Really, I have the good fortune of working with nice people. And if I don't think they're nice, I I don't work with them or I fire them. And that's really—

I love that about you. Because you set boundaries. And you're good at that.

We're not curing cancer. And we're not working on world peace, although we need to. We are creating entertainment and music. And I don't just do Apple Cartridges. I mean, I work on Rockstar video games. I do movies. I do documentaries. I do television. I do a lot of stuff. And we have to remember— that we are here to make music, we're here to create entertainment, we're here to create stuff for people to enjoy, and we need to remember that because that's what this is all about. If you're not having fun, get the hell out and find another career. And that's what my company is all about, and my staff knows it. And I have a good staff, and I make sure that they are taken care of. And if they're having a rough day, take a break, go take a walk, or go hug your child or your dog or what have you. And, and that's what this is all about. And so we try to make all of our projects fun. It's really important.

Okay, so how, how does somebody get a hold of you? Like the guys out here watching that need to reach out to DMG Clearances, what's the best way to get a hold of you?

You know, I'm gonna say go to my website first because it has a lot of information, the www.dmgclearances.com. Dmgclearances.com. It has my prices right there on the website, so there's like no bullshit there.

I love that. I do that too. I just think everything should be transparent.

I am the most transparent person you could ever imagine.

Yes, uh, maybe that's why we like each other. It could be.

And now it also explains, you know, what my services include. You want to know who my clients are? It's there. You want to know what I look like? My picture's there. Uh, my staff's pictures, my dogs. The DMG Dogs are on my website.

DMG Dogs, I love it. Can Gangster come play? Can we have a play date for our dogs?

Exactly. So I say go to my website first. And then if you're going to come to me, don't just say, well, how do I do it? Or what can you do for me or anything like that. Come prepared with a question. This is my song. This is my sample. Is this clearable? What's the budget? Do you have concerns? Be direct, and I don't need your life story. It's, you know, really—

And email is the best way to reach you?

And email's the best way. Same here. Same here. You know, if you were to walk into my office, there are 3 phones in front of me and a laptop and a desktop, and I'm multitasking the entire time. And so if you email me, if it's not me, you know, Rachel or someone from my office, My whole team is qualified to answer questions, so we make sure that everyone's taken care of. And just say, uh, Wendy Day. I love it. Priority attention.

Drop my name. Relationships. Awesome. Deborah, thank you. Thank you so much. I appreciate you more than words could ever say. DMG Clearances. Look below, I've got a link to her website. Um, Deb, thank you so much. My pleasure.

Thank you.