Success Without A Budget | Wendy Day Interviews Jake Palumbo

Hi everybody, Wendy Day here. I have an industry friend with me. I'm so impressed with this guy because he truly makes something out of nothing always, and it's just, it's, it's so, it's so wonderful. And you guys hear me talk all the time about how you need a budget in order to succeed in music, and this gentleman here does wonders with no budget. So we're gonna pick his brain so that you can apply. Jake Palumbo, how are you, my love?

Wendy Day, thank you for having me. Are you— thank you for having—

so happy that you're here.

I really appreciate it here.

So Jake, how did you get started in the music industry?

Ah, it's a very long story. I will try to condense 10 years into a couple minutes.

Yeah, please do, because I can't edit yet. I haven't learned, right?

Um, you know what You know, I was born and raised in Tennessee, you know, pretty disconnected from, you know, the central hubs of the music industry. I was born in the '80s, grew up in the '90s in a pre-internet world, you know. So, you know, where I'm from, if you don't find something to occupy yourself with, you know, you're gonna get into trouble pretty quickly, you know. So I was messing with music from the time, you know, I was a young child, learning instruments, you know. And as a teenager, that ends up evolving into hip-hop, and, you know, that kind of becoming my obsession. So When I got out of high school, you know, college was just not really the path for me. You know, I was more interested in life experience and being a musician. So I had spent a lot of my time, you know, on my lunch break at my job, you know, anytime I had a chance, I would go to, you know, the local bookstores and stuff and read every book I could get my hands on, every magazine. I used to read your columns in Murder Dog.

Um, you know, we're talking a few years ago too, so that was in the '90s. Not trying to tell anybody like your age or anything.

No, I, you know, I always say I'm an old kid slash young dinosaur. Um, I was kind of born between both eras. But anyway, I just really was into educating myself about the music business because I have an obsessive personality. Like anything I'm into, I get really into it. So I had read all these music books, and you know, the underlying theme was always that you need to try to establish a buzz, you know, where you're at in your hometown first, and then, you know, branch out. And I still to this day believe that to be good advice. You know, I just think in my case— within reason, you know— in my case, you know, the time, you know, we're talking 2003, 2004-ish, you know, when I pressed up my first 1,000 CDs and, you know, quit my job at Sears and you know, tried to put boots to concrete, you know. But we were still at that time, we were about maybe 2 or 3 years away from the dawn of social media, um, you know. So I was still doing everything the old-fashioned manual way, just with no money, um, you know. So I toughed that out for a couple years, you know, trying to put Johnson City, Tennessee on the map as best I could. And it was just a really easy way to starve to death. Literally, I lost 50 pounds in 2005 from, you know, small intake of food. But moving forward, um, you know, at that time, like I said, you know, maybe if at that time I had started out with social media and things like that, I would have had an easier time. But while we did get some support, we sold a few thousand CDs locally and things like that, you know, those were— that was almost, uh, I don't want to call it sympathy support, but you know, it was more people, you know, oh yeah, I like what you're doing, as opposed to real fans of what we were doing, right? For the kind of music I was doing, which was slightly left-field hip-hop in a southern market, you know, at that time it was like trying to grow corn in Afghanistan in a way. So, you know, reaching a breaking point in 2006, I felt like I had to make some sort of drastic change. So with $75 to my name, I I moved to New York City. Ooh, you're brave. Yeah. You know, spent a few months really trying to connect some dots, you know, to get an apartment and a job and whatnot. So, you know, in the meantime, I'm still making music. I'm still, you know, trying to do my due diligence. And at that time, you know, I was rapping, I was producing, you know, I was pretty much self-contained. You know, everything that we did, I made the beat, recorded the vocals, mixed it, you know. So I got— at the time I got to New York, I veered off ever so slightly, which ended up bringing me back to my original path, and that was I became an engineer. Now, after a failed attempt to go to audio school, it dawned on me, when you go to audio school, when you finish, the first thing that they do is put you in an internship, right? And then from there, it's up to you to parlay that into some sort of paying work, right? Right. So I thought, what if I just skip that step and the debt? Because I already, already knew a good bit. I just needed, you know, to work under some OGs and, you know, really brush up my skills. So I found myself an internship. I was the oldest intern there. Most of the kids were fresh out of high school, and I was an unpaid intern at a recording studio for about a year and a half, you know, in time for, for them to hire me as an engineer. There was your school just in time for that. Go out of business 3 months later. Oh man, same thing. In the meanwhile, I'm still pressing up my own music, I'm still touring wherever I can, you know, doing small shows across the country, you know, the, the Chitlin Circuit that is sadly disappearing now, you know. And so I ended up, when that studio went out of business, parlaying a relationship to another studio where I got on as a manager. And that ended up— those next maybe 2 years were kind of really my boot camp to the music industry because that was, that was the first point I was actually, you know, completely paying my bills off of just doing music-related stuff, even though, you know, I was still struggling financially a lot of times. But I did that for a couple years, and what ended up happening is in the midst of, you know, being the studio manager, being an engineer, doing all that, And I would like to stress too, maybe we'll get into this more later, but I'm not a— I used to not be a people person. It was, it was tough for me to just, you know, walk up to strangers and start networking, you know.

Same here, right?

So I'm an introvert, you know, once I get to know you, I'm completely the opposite. But at first, you know, I could be an introvert, but I had to break myself of that. So all the clients were coming in, you know, I was making sure to establish a relationship with them. It got to the point to where they were calling me directly to book time instead of calling the studio. And then also too, you know, it's a much easier sell, especially when I would find myself in the studio with artists whose music I looked up to, or, you know, I appreciated. It's a much easier sell to say, hey, why I make beats also, or, you know, hey, I actually make music and it's not whack. Um, it's easier to sell when they've just had a great session with you, right? Or, you know, they love their mix and master. You know, it's a much easier sell than just a cold call pitch, you know, which they may have already gotten 10 of that day.

Yes.

So to bring us to present day, after on that for, you know, a couple years, the people who bought the studio I was working for were some of the biggest crooks I had ever met in the music industry. And that's really making a statement. Um, And at that point, I felt like I had built up enough clientele that I could venture out on my own and maybe not starve to death. And it just so happened that, you know, before they started buying up all the buildings on this block, there was a building right next door that was nothing but studio spaces. And I kind of found my way over here, beg, borrow, steal. And 6 years ago, it will be 6 years ago this June, you know, I opened up Space Lab Recordings. Which was an offshoot of the, you know, poorly funded label I had been running out of my bedroom for so many years. You know, we opened that up as a studio. And, you know, it's, it's grown every year since then. You know, we're, like I said, we're here on 30th Street in Manhattan. And, you know, ever since then, you know, just—

I love it. The thing, the thing that really struck me, Jake, is you said it's been 8 years since you had a day job and somehow you've been able to make this work. And that's so amazing to me.

I don't always know how, right?

I get that.

Yeah. You know, but yes. Um, you know, very raw survival skills are needed a lot of times and really good people skills are needed in order to, you know, keep people from breaking your legs as you rob Peter to pay Paul. You know, boy, you know, my day job— the day job I had been working closed the same week I got my first paid engineering session, you know. So I don't sleep on signs, you know. But yeah, it's been actually 8 years since— and you know, that was all before I ever wanted to be a musician. That was all I really wanted out of life was to, you know, put my effort into my dream.

Right.

You know, and not punch a clock for the white man, you know, for a, you know, for a small wage.

Exactly.

So yeah.

And you've, and you've proven that you can pull things off with pocket lint and laundry quarters. That's my favorite quote that in one of your emails, you said, Wendy, I've been able to pull this off with pocket lint and laundry quarters. And I love that. I so get that.

I'm thinking about calling my next album that.

I love it.

I love it. It's kind of, uh, it's, I mean, it is kind of a metaphor because, you know, just about every bit of logical research that you can read about the music industry will tell you that, you know, if you're not working with a budget of close to six figures, you know, to be able to do everything from hire street teams to radio promoters to, you know, everything you need, basically, that if you're not starting with something like that you know, you're fucked from the get-go.

Exactly.

Um, and again, I don't disagree with that, but I just can't quit, you know, because it's a passion, right? You know, if, if, if, if the progress had not consistently went up each year, if I'd not been able to— on self-awareness is real important as far as, you know, being able to take a look at yourself honestly and to see if you're growing, if you're stagnating, if, you know, And every year, you know, I've truly been able to look back and say, well, we're doing a little bit better than we were last year, right? You know, even if we may have juggled a million, you know, headaches and, you know, you know, a million disasters, you know, as long as you're steadily growing, then, you know, I just can't bring it in myself to stop.

Exactly. And you're still an artist. You've got the studio, so you've got a way to earn income. In the field that you love, but you, you're also still making music, and it puts you in an environment where you can work with other artists like the Razz Cazes of life that come through. And, you know, the, the guys that you've done amazing work for, and you've built relationship with DJs. Like, um, you were saying in, um, one of your emails, he and I email back and forth and, um, discuss the music industry. And, um, Jake, you were telling me that you built a relationship with Tony Touch so that when you put out— and you helped him for free for a long time— so that when you put out your own album, um, you didn't need to ask him for help. Not that you would have or should have, but you didn't have to. He stepped up and said, you know what, let's do a 30-minute interview on my radio show and let's play 5 of your songs.

And that's just such a, you know, I think One of the most important strategies that has worked for me, and this requires an absurd level of patience and foresight.

I'm sorry, I told them to take notes.

One of the things that has really paid off as far as, you know, we're playing chess, not checkers. And what has helped me so much in building relationships with a lot of key people in the industry is not bum-rushing them when we first meet, right? And, you know, not running up on them with, uh, you know, and I don't blame artists. A lot of times artists may have a chance meeting with somebody and they think, when is this ever gonna happen again? You know, I have to, you know, tell this guy my life story, you know, rap for him, play him, you know. And the thing is, is, you know, that's— that method is just not effective. It doesn't work, you know. And, you know, like in the case of Tony Touch, you know, I was his engineer for, you know, close to 3 years. You know, for the first 6 months we worked together, you know, I didn't even tell him I did music. You know, I just did my job. I made his stuff sound good. And, you know, and then from there, as time went on, you know, it wasn't the first record of mine he played. He played a few things here and there. But again, by not— by just building a relationship and being cool and, you know, establishing dependability When I did put an album out, I didn't have to go to the guy and say, you know, hey, you know, and beg, borrow, and steal. He calls me like, oh, your album's out? Hey, come on the show this Tuesday, right? You know, and even while I was on the show, one of the records that got played, it was a song, Rest in Peace, with me and Sean Price. The pro— one of the programmers at Sirius, Ron Mills, who again I had built a relationship with for engineering for one of his artists. And I'm rushing him when he was in my studio, just doing my job and being cool. I get a text message from him right after I left the radio station saying, "Hey, could you send me that record?" I'm like, "Yes, sir, coming right up." And then a couple days later, I get a message from him that it was being played on Shade 45. Again, it requires a chess level of foresight that, you know, when you're politicking amongst these artists, you know, you may not necessarily get your pitch in today. You may not get it in the next time. You may not get it in the time after that. But that's a lesson for people in being cool and dependable. And have your hand out, you know, it'll be hooey later, right? I promise you it will be hooey later. And another real quick story about, um, that same thing. A lot of times I, I got a lesson driven home recently that you're not all— go ahead.

No, no, no, go ahead. I, I love where you're going with this.

Oh, I'm sorry, no, uh, connection got a little spotty. I apologize. Connection's a little bit rough. Uh, I had a, um, I had recently— let's see if I can move over here closer to the router. Is that any better?

Yes, it's perfect.

Okay. All right, so as I was saying, you know, I had this lesson driven home to me recently. I got a call. I was going to be out of town the following week, and I knew that Drez from the group Black Sheep records here, and I knew that there were some camera people coming to talk to him while I was going to be gone. So I get a call on a Friday. We're super busy, I'm stressed out. Somebody calls on the other end of the line and says, hey, I was wondering if I could come down and check out the space, take pictures, get ready for the shoot. And I'm almost kind of curving the guy on the phone because it's busy, we're stressed out, I'm shorthanded. And out of the blue he says, I'm sorry, are you Jake Palumbo? That kind of took me aback because I'm not that famous. So I said, Yes, I am. Why do you ask? And he says, I don't know if you remember me. My name is Dave. I'm from Complex. And he goes, I don't know if you remember me, but I used to be the DJ in a group called Psyche Origami from Atlanta. And we played a show with you in Johnson City, Tennessee, 11 years ago. And when they were in my town, I looked out for them. And, you know, of course, you do what you do, right thing. And so 11 years later, he's like, you live in New York now and own a studio. I'm like, you live in New York now and you work for Complex. So I say that to say, at the time I did the show with this guy 11 years ago, I had no— I was just, you know, being hospitable to them to do it because it was the right thing. But then 11 years later, you know, the people who truly last in this business— when I first moved to New York, I was under the impression that the music business was this vast field of, you know, thousands and thousands of people. After being in it for this long, I realized, no, it's actually the same 500 people.

Yes. If even that many.

If even that many. So, you know, it was crazy. I'm like, okay, so now that we're in a position 11 years later where I'm Jake Palumbo with a little more juice behind my name and he's, you know, chief of media of something at Complex, there's no introduction required.

Right.

So, you know, it's, it's things like that that you can't buy that.

Right.

You know, that only really comes with, you know, with patience and being thorough with people.

Exactly.

And you're not always networking for now, you're networking for later too.

Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, um, I'm taking notes while you talk because you're saying some amazing shit. And you're, you're, you're saying that making the organic relationships with the people in the industry without running up on them looking for a handout or running up on them and blitzing them with whatever you're looking for, um, has allowed you to build the relationship that you need to get a favor when you need it. Not, not that you're doing this for the favor, but you're doing this because it's the right thing to do, and you're building a relationship. You're not pushing up on somebody to do something for you when you don't know them, right?

You know, at the end of the day, It's kind of common sense, but we forget sometimes that people in the music industry are people.

Yes.

Yeah, you know, we're— they're stressed out about their phone bill just like we are, you know, I mean. And so you have to— it may not yield you the results you're looking for this second, but over time it will.

Exactly. So, so do you have any bits of advice that you could share about how to get through the struggle that you go through when you don't have money and you got to kind of make it happen?

Yeah, um, I mean, it's a lot of things, you know, like I said, self-awareness is really a big part of it in that you have to kind of figure out what your lane is. Um, you know, meaning I kind of knew from the get-go that I was not pursuing the Jay-Z lane, the, the Nelly lane, uh, the, the Pitbull lane. Like, you know, um, and that's okay, you know, and that's okay. Like, that truly is okay. Like, you know, I, you know, I might only have 5,000, 6,000 something followers on Instagram, but those are all real fans. They're fans and they're loyal.

Absolutely.

And that was built, you know, I started my Instagram account out with 5 followers, you know what I mean? That was built up you know, over time. And like I said, it's a smaller number, but that's 5,000 to 6,000 people, you know, who engage with my content every day. So, right, you know, and look, you know, with that many people engaging in your content, you know, you can feel kind of popular sometimes.

Yeah.

Um, you know, I watched the thing with Chuck D one time. He said, you know, a major label might laugh at 50,000 as a small number, but if I ask you to count from 0 to 50,000, you're gonna get mad at me at about 300. You know, it kind of is a small army. So, so I've always, aside from realizing what your lane really is, um, you know, and like I said, I may have less fans than a lot of artists, but I make a living making the music I want to make and giving it out to an audience who cares, wants it, exactly, who actually wants it, right? You know, and it allows me to not waste time promoting it in areas where, you know, it might be futile. Um, so, so self-awareness is definitely key. But I think another thing really too is nurturing the fan base that you do have, you know, even if— again, you know, there was a time my fan base was in the hundreds, and before that there was a time my fan base was in the tens, you know, but that whole way, instead of stressing out about why these numbers are not larger, I tried to focus on trying to make those people that were there into super dedicated fans.

Right.

You know, it can be anything from giving them exclusive content to sometimes, you know, back when I had more time— I can't really do this anymore— but back when I had time, sometimes I would just go through everybody on our mailing list and just send them a quick little personal, hey, how have you been? Thanks for subscribing. And stuff like that makes people feel like they're not just a number. Exactly. And it matters to you that you tuning in matters to me. And, you know, if they get excited about it, you know, they will tell their friends about it. People always like to be up on things that other people are not up on yet, um, you know. So there was that, um, a mistake I made early on that you know, I didn't correct until a few years ago. I wish I'd corrected earlier, was not paying enough attention to my analytics. Um, meaning, you know, I used to post things on Facebook or MySpace or, you know, whatever it was, and, you know, I would just look at the number of engagements that it got, and if the number was high, I was happy, and if the number was low, I was sad. Um, you know, instead of taking a look at where these cliques are actually coming from.

Right.

You know, I was in the studio one time with a guy named Mario Sprouse. He was a composer, worked on a lot of Gordon Parks movies. And, you know, he'd been in the music business for 50 years, and I asked him one day, I said, you know, how have you kept your sanity through this for so many years? And he said, you have to remember that the music business is no different than selling toothpaste or soap, or, you know, you're selling a product, you have to identify who your customer is, you have to advertise and promote in the places where your customer is known to congregate, and, you know, and build from there. So, you know, any— nowadays especially, any artist who's got a Facebook page, who has a— even Instagram started showing analytics now, you know, take a look at where your clicks are coming from. You know, if you're noticing that you're getting, uh, you know, more clicks from Texas, you know, or from California, or from, you know, fill in the blank, uh, you know, then, then read into that and see that you need to put a little bit more juice into— it could be as simple as sponsoring a Facebook post, which can be done for so cheap.

Pennies.

Yes, pennies. I mean, literally pennies. Um, You know, and naturally Facebook has changed their algorithms to where people don't see your posts as much unless you sponsor them, and I mean, that's their right, I guess. You know, if people are hustling on their block, you know, they're gonna get a cut. But, you know, for $10, for literally for as little as $10, I put out a music video maybe about 2 months ago with me, Tac from Smith Wesson, and Rusty Jukes.. And when I posted it on my Facebook artist page, you know, I'm looking at the traffic and I'm like, "Oh really? That's all the views? That's all the clicks?" Sponsoring that same post for $10, I ended up with 7 or 8 times the response.

Wow.

Now, you know, as far as I'm willing to go with that, you know, they're willing to keep making sure more and more people see it. You know, so, but really, you know, right, but really it's not, you know, I kind of learned this from my parents too, like instead of focusing on what you don't have, focus on what you do have.

Right.

Which in my case was the ability, because I was used to doing everything myself, because I had a studio and worked in the studio space, we have the ability to produce music at high volume for nothing. You know, just our sweat labor, you know. So for the few, the proud, the fans that tune in regularly, you know, we have, you know, we've released 36 titles in 10 years. Not all mine, you know. I only have 4 solo projects and 2 group projects. But, um, you know, regardless, for the people who do care, you know, they have been well fed with content. Also too, you know, I've never in my career had a booking agent, ever. Um, you know, and I've started to think that they went the way of the dinosaur. Um, you know, unless you're at the very top of the food chain. But yeah, one of the ways that we have gotten— right, you know, one of the ways we have gotten shows over the years is, is trading shows, uh, with other artists. Like, for example, you know, if I meet an artist online. And, you know, oddly enough, you wouldn't think this, but one of the biggest markets that buys our music is Tucson, Arizona. You know, last time I did a show in Tucson, you know, I'm playing— who knew, right? You know, um, you know, but it began because I was collaborating with an artist out there named Cypherface who had a strong local hold, and we started doing some music. So he brings me out there to do a show, I return the favor in New York, and You know, because most every artist is gonna have some sort of grip on their local, you know, scene. So they're able to lock down a venue and get you added to that bill, and you're willing to return the favor to that same artist in your town. You know, you can put together a DIY tour that way. I'm not saying you're not gonna run into a million clusterfucks along the way, because you will. Um, you know, we've had our the tour vehicle impounded. We've, you know, all types of stuff. But, you know, this is what I'm saying is that, you know, I wouldn't have thought that, you know, Tucson would be a big market for me, but it is. So when I'm doing my promotional efforts and I'm looking at where these ads are running, I'm making sure that there's a little bit more juice going to this area because they've been known to actually buy music. You know, I do shows in New York, and it's not just me, it's a New York scene as a whole. But, you know, doing shows in the city of New York, you know, we might be doing good to get 30 or 40 people out, you know what I mean? But going to a lot of these— don't be afraid to go to smaller towns too, because, you know, in New York, people are, people are very jaded in New York because like tonight, if we wanted to, there's 30 shows we could go to.

Exactly.

So, you know, people go out, you know, if, if we're going to Flagstaff or, you know, to Clarksville, Tennessee, or something like that, where that might be the only entertainment that's coming to town for a week. It doesn't always matter if you're a big artist or not. A lot of times, you know, and sometimes we found our most loyal and, you know, repeat customers and most loyal fans in those smaller markets. And they seem to really appreciate, like, yo, you traveled out this way to come rock with us. You know, it goes farther than you think. But I don't know, there's a lot of different stuff, but it really boils down to working smarter and not harder.

All right.

Because I, you know, and everything— I like to say everything I ever learned, I learned by fucking it up. I did, you know, a mistake is the best teacher. You could ever ask for. You know, even if you get bruises away, it's— but, you know, I think of like all types of just efforts I put into the wrong places, you know, and, you know, you got to work a little smarter, a little harder. I will say this, being an artist trying to make an impact without a budget is kind of almost like being a handicapped athlete. That's not to say you can't do it, but you're gonna have to work twice as hard every— you know, if you're minus an arm, your legs are gonna have to be strong, you know, in that aspect, you know. It's almost like having a handicap, you know. Yes, you can still do it, but you've got to, you know, you got to be really good and you have to have an extremely high tolerance for pain.

I mean, you know, And for risk.

And for risk. And for risk. You know, low risk is always low reward. High risk is high reward, but it's high risk.

Right.

Right. Oh, you know, and I always stress to people to, you know, make sure that whatever you're doing, you're happy at it. Because if I was not enjoying myself, I would go get a job with health insurance.

Right. It would be a miserable existence if you weren't happy. Yes, this, it, this would be work, like really work.

Yes, you know, every, every— with the studio, with my label, with the production, everything, you know, I start every month going racks and racks into debt so that by the end of that 30 days we can be back up to above water. And, you know, somehow miraculously every month that's what happens, but You know, that's a period of 28 days each month of uncertainty.

Exactly.

Um, yeah, but, but definitely make sure that— it sounds like— wait, right? Definitely make sure you're enjoying yourself and, and nurture the fans that you do have instead of worrying that your number is not large enough.

I agree. I'd rather have a very dedicated small audience than a large audience of people that don't give a fuck.

Just write, you know?

Yeah, good advice. Jake, you have been awesome. You see, guys, why I interviewed him? He's awesome, right? Jake, thank you so much for this. This has been so helpful.

I appreciate it. I, like I said, you know, you were one of the first people that really taught me the ins and outs of the music business and, you know, taught me to look outside the box. So I I really appreciate you having me, Wendy.

Very impressed with you. Thank you so much, Jake, and thanks for your time today.

No problem. Thank you so much. All right, bye.