Uncovering Hidden Royalties: Forensic Accounting in the Music Industry | No Standing Zone Ep. 14

Hey, this is Wendy Day. I'm here at No Standing Zone and I've got an amazing guest. So this is a forensic accountant and he's going to explain what he does because it's cool as shit. And sadly, we really need him in the music industry. Gungu, how are you?

Hey, how you doing, Wendy?

I am awesome. Thank you so much for being here.

Yeah, I appreciate it. I appreciate it.

The exciting thing is, and the sad thing is, that my market is 100% your market.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, like I said, people, people have been trying to get me in contact with you. They put it in at least the past decade or more, like, oh, you need to meet Wendy Day. You know, um, Deborah Manis Gardner, right?

Oh my God, yes. I interviewed her about a month ago.

Really? Wow. Okay.

She's the person that I go back the furthest with. I've been doing this 33 years. She's been doing it 35. So she's the person that's been doing it like that I know longer than me. Isn't that cool?

Yeah, no, yeah, she said, yeah, she's, yeah, she's definitely advocate, you know? Um, yeah, she's definitely, yeah, she's got a job for sure.

Yeah. So are you though, like you're doing some amazing stuff. I love this.

Yeah, I'm trying. I'm just trying to help the, the community. I mean, I love— I've seen people getting played for a long time. Um, it kind of, it kind of motivated me to— it was motivation. Oh, let me turn this phone off. I'm sorry.

Not a problem, not a problem.

Yeah, yeah, it was just— it was motivation.

How did you get started? Like, what brought you down this lane? First of all, thank God for you. Second of all, how did you get started?

Um, well, what kind of inspired me to get started was like, I might have grew up around a couple of guys that had bad record deals in high school, per se. They don't like to— they don't like me mentioning their names. I mean, this is like 1989 and stuff like that. They, they're still like, yeah, they're still angry over whatever, you know what I mean? Like, you were kids. But anyway, Um, so, you know, I used to hear stuff like, okay, so one guy I knew that I used to be around a lot signed the deal with this guy Gene Griffin. Oh, right, right. Okay, so you already— so yeah, so you already know, you know what I mean, how that was going, right?

How that went. So I know how it ended.

Yeah, right. So I mean, I used to hear words that I couldn't comprehend like, um, like, oh my, you know, like, oh, I didn't get no publishing, you know what I'm saying? So, so maybe I hear that at 17 and you're just like, well, I don't know what that means, you know what I mean? But I know it's not good, you know what I mean? And then I started buying a few books, and then the things I couldn't understand— my family was real tight with, um, the Sugar Hill Family, Mr. Robinson. Okay, senior. So, you know, my, my, um, grandfather and them kind of used to run with them in Harlem, you know, in the '50s and stuff like that. So make a long story short, I had somebody to, you know, ask questions. You know, he taught me what perpetuity meant, things like that, and these deals and things like that. You know, just things I didn't understand.

Recoupable.

So, um, that kind of put me on the track in the publishing business right there.

Yeah.

Yeah. And then I started, yeah, then I started just affiliating with a few people. Then, actually what happened was I think around '98, I got into, my family got into discrepancy with Sugar Hill because over some contracts. And I think they sold a relative of mine's publishing under their nose. Yeah, so we kind of like disbanded a little bit from there. But It turned around where I had to wind up taking them to court because I would sign a client, oh, oh, you know them, and they, they would have their publishing. So, you know, I've been through a few court cases with them, but I learned a lot through the court system in understanding what lawyers are going to say, you know, as excuses on why not to pay. And, you know, I try to work around it. Yeah, so yeah, so I do like the forensic side. Read royalty statements, you know, and, um, I could kind of see where people are lying a little bit on the statement, you know. Um, yeah, I could take— yeah, I'd like— for example, I had to take, uh, Jellybean Benitez to court, right, over the Big Pun estate. He would send in the estate royalty statements saying that they were unrecovered. $400,000, you know, and giving her a biannual statement, you know, having her unrecouped, uh, from, from the time of his death to about 2014, right? And, um, come to find out when I did the process, I saw, I saw that the royalty statements were fake because I had, I actually had co-writers on some of the same songs that I was, I was doing administration for. So the numbers are different on these songs.

Wow.

Yeah. And they had the same percentage. Like, you know, my other writer, my other writer had 10% of that song too. Yeah, my other writer had the same percentage of this song, you know. So he was getting— the accounting was way off, you know what I mean. So, um, I found maybe like $2.5 million missing at that, out that. But, but they were, they were recouped the whole time, sending, sending, sending unrecooped statements, right? But she was, she was recouped the whole time.

She wouldn't know. She, she was married to a man.

What does an estate know? What does an estate know? You know what I'm saying? You could call, you could call the estate in a second like, no, he owed me money, you know, and discombobulate your thoughts for years, decades. Yeah. Yeah, you know, so that was, um, yeah, that was, that was cool. But, you know, so I go through things like that, just reading royalty statements, uh, seeing where, um, they're not paying properly. And even the big publisher, I mean, I, I had a, um, a Sony Publishing client that was missing 149 songs on his publishing statement.

Jesus.

Okay, the 149 songs. Yeah, he was missing a publishing statement. Yeah, he didn't notice that for about— it was, it was like that for over a decade. Yeah, yeah. And I fixed it, and, uh, I fixed it, but now he's getting like 3 times what he's, you know, 3 times the biannual now. But good. And then they had that, they had to, you know, fix this, you know, situation and things like that. But yeah, so it can get just— even with the majors, you know, they got some They got too many copyrights, in my opinion, right? You know what I mean?

That they're too busy.

They can't juggle all these balls properly.

I agree. And there's no financial incentive for them to juggle properly.

Well, yeah, there's no—

it goes into the black box. Doesn't it come back to them after a certain amount of time?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they got all these little laws where— yeah, yeah, it just, it just disappears. You know, yeah, I mean, and then overseas there's statute of limitations, you know what I mean? So you can't get money from inception and things like that, you know.

Um, is there statute of limitations in the US for artists to chase money? So if somebody hasn't been paid in, in— I mean, can they—

No, I've gotten money. I've gotten money from the label. I mean, I'm getting money from a label right now. Universal's paying me on something now. From records that came out in '95, '96.

Oh, that's awesome. Okay.

Yeah, it's just that they got to go to the warehouse and it might take 9 months for them to come back and say we did the accounting, right? You know, so I mean, yeah, no, I've gone back that far before. I mean, I might have collected on a record from the '60s with Warner one time and they were like, we're not doing all this, we're just gonna have to settle something.

Yeah, so we just figured out the number that everybody—

yeah, we just settled on it. We just settled on the number. They're like, we're not going back from 1968. Like, you try sue me all you want, you know, let's just work it out. Yeah, yeah, he worked it out.

Is there anything that artists can do on their side to prevent this from happening?

Yeah, but they really have to really— I mean, that's a whole nother job. You know what I'm saying? I don't think they have— I don't think they have time for that, you know. I mean, the art— they're artists, they're running. I always tell people, like, you know, they're running way faster than the speed limit on the highway.

Yes.

You know what I'm saying? So the faster you go, the harder— the harder for you to see the signs, right? You know what I'm saying? The smartest people, the people ask me the best questions, are usually the people that are, like, semi-retired from the music business. You know what I mean? They got time to think, and all of a sudden it's like, hey, you know what I'm saying? But the people who are running fast, they're not even getting no education in between. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? I mean, I got— I, I also, uh, work with the DMX estate.

Oh wow.

Yeah, so I mean, it just looked like to me, you know, he wasn't educated on like oh, my ASCAP comes quarterly, or, you know, like he didn't really, you know, I think he was— his mindset was more like, well, I do these shows, I'm gonna get the money, you know what I'm saying? Most artists, yeah. But in between that time when he's not keeping up with his ASCAP, people stealing that money, right? You know, people around him cashing those checks, doing all that type stuff, you know what I'm saying?

That's heartbreaking.

Yeah.

There's so little money for artists anyway. When you look at the whole pie, they're getting such a small slice of that pie that it makes me nuts that people want even bigger shares. It's like, you're getting most of the pie anyway, why, why can't you just let people eat? It's crazy to me.

I mean, I guess that's another reason why these people are selling their catalogs too, you know, because they, they feel like they're not, you know, they're not getting a fair compensation But if you're gonna put a 15 multiple on my song, you know, off the past 3 years of royalties, but I mean, it's kind of weird because you own your copyright for your life plus 70 years. So if you're 45 and you might live to 80, that's 35 years right there. And then 70 years after your death, that's 105 years of royalties. 70 years going to your family after you die for 15 years of royalties upfront. I mean, some people even do— I mean, some companies do a 6 multiple, you know. I mean, for 6 years up front, you know, I mean, that's— it's kind of rough.

Yeah. Yeah. I think this is the hardest area for artists to get paid. And I've been— I've been doing this for 3 decades. I, I don't do what you do, so hats off to you, because I think I would start shooting people if I was doing your job.

Well, you know, it's funny, you— you're— well, I guess you're known for getting the Cash Money, their deal.

Yeah.

So I was consulting for them in 2015, and, um, they were having a big discrepancy at the time, um, with some money. I think Lil Wayne and stuff like that, you know. Yeah, so I don't want to say no names, but somebody that— there used to be a person there that was running, running his company today, the woman that was running the day-to-day.

Mm.

And, um, I was paying her, you know, from the money I was finding for Cash Money. She calls me up one day, or they called me up one day and basically told me to stop collecting the money, right? Because they were, they were hoping that Baby and Slim would go broke and they were going to try to buy the company under their nose. Oh, his own employee. Yeah, his own employee.

This industry is treacherous.

A year later, like, because I had emails and everything, a year later I told Baby— I met them at Quad Studio. I'm like, look, she wants kickbacks on the money I'm giving her for y'all. Um, she wants to— she's trying to, you know, she told me to stop paying because, you know, yeah, yeah, they were like, they, they couldn't believe Yeah, it's crazy. I mean, you want me to— you want me to co-conspire to take their company? That was crazy.

That is crazy. Yeah, that is crazy. So hard, like, to build that. I met them when they were 6 years in and they had put out 31 albums over 6 years. Oh wow, they really, really worked hard. They were not— they, they're not stupid. They're not unsophisticated. Like, they really, they really built that company to what it was, and it breaks my heart to hear that somebody would want to take it from them.

Um, unsuccessfully, but you know, right, right. Yeah, but that was there, that was their thoughts.

Wow, that's crazy. And then you worked with my friend Orville. You, you, you just shared that with me right before we hopped on, on the, the, the the interview.

Yeah, the Showboys drag rap. Yeah.

Um, yeah, like that's the sound, like that's the entire New Orleans sound is built on Trigger Man.

There's— I mean, every couple of days I'm sending in an infringement to Sony because, you know what I mean, because, you know, for clearance and stuff like that. And they, they're catching up, they're catching up with a lot of people and stuff like that and working it out. But nah, Oval had a long battle for 35 years against Platinum. Yeah, I mean, this guy— yeah, this guy was not paying him.

No.

And, um, you know, he was kind of doing the Jelly Bean thing, I would say, where he was deceiving them on the statements.

Was he— I was just gonna say, was he even accounting to them? I don't even remember whoever was getting statements.

When he wanted to.

Okay. When he want—

you know, he might send you a statement, he might not send you a statement for 10 years, you call him up, all of a sudden he sent you a statement for a year, and then he stops again, things like that, you know what I'm saying? But he was the type but he was also saying that he, that they were unrecouped. They were, that they were unrecouped, you know.

Um, 35 years, that's a little hard to believe.

I couldn't see, how can you be unrecouped when this song gets so many licenses? Yes, it's one of them, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, so like, I don't, I can't see it. Yeah, like, how did, how, how'd that happen? You know what I'm saying?

Right.

Yeah. But I mean, some of these guys, I say, and there's other guys like him, and maybe Mr. Robinson might have been like this too, maybe, but sometimes it's more like, okay, you know I'm stealing. We'll figure it out in court. Like, you know, you won't get all your money. We'll just, you know, like, you know, like I'll settle out in court and give you, you know, maybe a third of what I took from you or something like that. You know what I'm saying? Like, some of these guys know how to play chess in court real well, man. Real well. Real, real well.

So, I mean, is that hard for you?

The average person— the average person is not going to beat Steve Woznicki in court. I'm telling you.

Absolutely not. He's— he's— he— he's litigious. He's somebody that just sues a lot of people. So he's been— he's pretty good at it. He's gotten good at it.

Yeah, I mean, that's what I'm saying. He got ring experience, you know what I'm saying? You know, he— so do I though. So that's the thing, you know what I'm saying? I'm a court guy, he's a court guy. So, you know, I mean, yeah, you know, it worked, it worked out, it worked out. But he was, he was probably the hardest battle I ever had.

Yeah, because I think, um, he's a worthy opponent.

I think he beat Run-DMC.

Really?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, but, um, because I think Reach Global was the publisher for Run-DMC. I think Run-DMC took took Plotnicki to court over royalties. I think in 2017-ish, I think Plotnicki was able to tell the judge that how much money he spent over the years on the case and that was frivolous or something like that. And I think my lawyer told me that the judge awarded Plotnicki the, um, the Run-DMC account, like, oh, you don't have to pay them, like, like, you know, you could keep their publishing or something like that.

That's heartbreaking.

Yeah, it was something like that. It was something like that.

It's, it's so hard for me to hear this because like I really believe in the culture of hip-hop. I came up in the culture, so it wasn't necessarily a money grab for anybody that I came up with. And I know that, I know that the guys like that are my age, like my peers, I know they got jerked. And that's part of the reason I started Rap Coalition. But it still pains me, like I love what you— I love what you do.

That's what I'm trying to— I really, I really more enjoy— I really more enjoy helping the old school guys, you know what I'm saying? I mean, I got, I got, I got, I got an artist. I'll just say an artist from like '87, '88.

I just got him a check for like $380,000 over the summer, and that was probably all the money in the world to him because, I mean, well, he didn't make that recently with his career.

He, he said he, he said he never seen a check from this company before ever in his life. Put it that way, until I got it for him.

Oh, that's crazy to me. There's enough money for everybody.

Yeah, but yeah, the old school guys, they, they, they, they've been manipulated. But I definitely enjoy helping those guys. Some of those guys got some money sitting out there that they just don't know about. Yeah.

Yeah. Do you do anything with the Black Box? Do you recover money for, for artists from there?

Um, I've recovered money. Um, I mean, I do, I do. Yeah, that's part of my repertoire, recovering money. You know, I mean, I, I want to say I've done, I've done some, I would just say I've done some good numbers recovering in the 7 figures just in the past couple of months for clients.

I love that.

Yeah.

What's your favorite part about your job?

Honestly, um, yeah, going to court.

Really? Yeah, yeah, I love that you're not afraid of that.

I'm saying that's what, that's what, that's where the education is, you know. A lot of people get, oh, go, go court. No, I got— that's, that's where I'm, that's where I'm gonna learn a whole bunch of stuff. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? So it's like, yeah, that, you know, that, that's, you know, yeah, I like that part. And I like doing— well, I like, I like doing the research. That, that's probably the most exhilarating part. You know, somebody lies to you, you know, then it's like you're like a detective, you know what I mean?

Yes.

You're trying to find the body or something, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, I didn't do that, I didn't, I didn't steal his money, I didn't do that. Okay, well, you know, well, the paperwork says— yeah, and I know you did. Yeah, you know what I'm saying?

So it's like, yeah, here, let me just pull this out and show you where you did.

Yeah, the investigative part is what I enjoy the most. Yeah, absolutely. You know what I'm saying? And It's, it's, it's a, it's, it's a complex game, you know. It's going to war with some— it's almost like going to war with some people. I mean, I almost feel bad sometimes. Like, there's a guy right now, I don't know, he thinks I'm a joke, you know what I mean? And, you know, if I, if I start saying publicly what I know about certain things, he'd probably lose his job. Yeah, yeah. And this guy, this guy is a heavyweight. In the business, you know what I mean? Yeah. So I mean, like, I don't know, you know, I'm trying to, trying to gain respect as I move, you know. I don't care if they hate me, just respect it.

Oh, they'll respect you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, but they'll—

yeah, I mean, the more I win, you know, I try to— I'm trying to gather stats as much as possible, you know, you know, my court victories, you know. I try to compare to like, uh, a player who's scoring 30 a game, you know what I'm saying, right? You know, like, you know, I got, I got, I got decent stats. Right, you know.

Yeah, I love that. I love that. So how do you balance your work life and your personal life? Because you have a lot of stress. Like, you have a— I thought I had a stressful job. You have a seriously stressful job. How do you keep so balanced? Because you're really like even keel. You're really quite normal for a guy that—

no, I mean, it's people for a living. I, I just, I just been— I don't, I don't know. I, I don't know how to explain it. I mean, but all I can say is that This is what, this is what wakes me up every day. Yeah, you know what I'm saying?

This is for you, isn't it?

Yeah, it was like, it was like a almost like meant to be. Yeah, I'm, I'm comfortable not being, I'm comfortable not being liked, you know, in this part of the business. Yeah, why would I, I don't know them guys like that, why would I care? Like, you know what I mean? I'm just trying to do the right thing for these guys, you know.

I've, well, you fight for the underdog, that's always, I just learned.

Yeah, I mean, you know, people called me up Need to borrow money during the holidays, you know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

And they got, they got, they got money out there, or they're being robbed, you know what I'm saying? You know, um, some people are homeless, you know what I'm saying? And you know, you just try to, you know, it's, it's, you know, it's an honor for certain, you know, just to help these guys out with their accounts and get them on a better path. Um, It's, it's, it's just, yeah, it's just an ugly game. It's, it's, it's continuous. You don't— I mean, it's just, it's just, yeah, it's just continuous. Like, there's always, there's always, there's always an issue, you know. Um, even with like ASCAP and BMI, the PROs, you know, I mean, I just basically, I just tell everybody, like, nobody's your friend. Anybody who's paying is not your friend. Yeah, yeah, they all got these, they all got these bylaws where they could keep money if you don't do certain things at a certain time, you know what I'm saying? Like, like, like if you do a late registration with ASCAP and BMI and things like that, and it's like, oh, we can only pay you back like 5 quarters on a late registration. But that's not the deal between the other PROs and them in the other countries, you know what I'm saying? So it's like they just, they're just keeping money on you. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, it's silly.

Are there, are there good publishing companies out there? Like, is everybody kind of evil, or, or are there some people that are trying?

I mean, I almost don't want to, I almost don't want to answer that.

Okay, let's, let me not ask you that because I don't want to.

But no, I mean, no, but I mean, yeah, no, there's some— no, I know some legit guys out there for sure, you know what I'm saying? And even, but even But even the legit ones can make mistakes from like software issues, things like that, you know what I'm saying? So I mean, if you're not, if you're not keeping the track on, if you're not staying on top of your royalty statements, I mean, what, not too many artists are, you know what I'm saying?

I mean, especially, I mean, it's not easy.

The more popular you are, the bigger the royalty statement.

Yes.

So I mean, so what, you're going to get an email with 20,000 pages? And yeah, that's exactly that. You're not— yeah, are you really gonna— yeah, you're really gonna read on page 12,002 that the song is missing in France? You know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah, it's not— it's not— it's not— it's not— that's not really happening like that.

No. Plus, I don't know what to look for, and I've been doing this 30-some-odd years, so I know an artist doesn't know what to look for, but I don't know what to look— I don't know what's missing. You know what I mean?

It's like I'll look at it and be like, okay, yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly, exactly. I mean, I, I would think that the record labels have done studies to see, you know what I'm saying? I'm, I know, you know, they, they know, they had to have done a study to know the odds of people checking their royalty statements and, and how to keep low inquiries, you know. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I mean, just think, if everybody's able to read the royalty statement, they couldn't control the increase.

Exactly, exactly. If this stuff was easier on the blockchain, they couldn't make as much money as they do from the mistakes, right? There's a lot of money in this industry in fuck-ups. A lot of money in fuck-ups.

Yeah, but there's a lot of people that capitalize on the fuck-up, you know what I'm saying? Like, there's, you know, there's vultures out there that will, that will— hey, if you're not getting that money, I'll get it for you.

Right.

You know, that's a whole nother— that's a whole nother sport. There's guys that— there's other guys, there's guys in this business that don't even know publishing, you know what I'm saying? Like, they could just— like, their friends are publishers, like, yo, I'm gonna see— I'm gonna show you how to steal money, you know what I'm saying? I know, I know one guy, he stole some publishing. I think his first check was like a half million dollars. He actually took the stolen catalog— he actually took the stolen catalog that he took, and he was actually he was able to do an administration deal with a company that didn't know no better. They gave him a half-million-dollar advance on a stolen catalog.

On something that wasn't his.

It was not his at all.

Yep. I had an artist come visit me in the '90s and ask me to shop him a publishing deal, and it's not something I do, so I passed on it. But I found out like a year and a half later that he had gathered up songs from all of the producers in the city that he was from and came and got himself his own publishing deal at Universal. They gave him a $350,000 advance for music from all of the producers in the neighborhood where he was from, and he got over and he built a career.

He got over, he built a career.

He caught a beatdown when he got home, but he got over.

Okay, right, right. But he got over.

Yep.

Wow. Yeah, no, like I said, that's a whole nother game. This is like this game. Yeah, there's people out there, it's just like, you know, you white collar-ish.

Yes, yes. You know what I'm saying?

Yes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I've caught people. I had a client, I had a company make an alternate BMI writer name Because there was ways back at one point, there was ways that you would, that you would, that you was able to scam your way into getting an IPI number. And you'd give a fake Social Security number, and then it would get flagged and it would come back and they would say, this is, this doesn't match, and you would get flagged. But it would only flag you in America, but the IPI is active in any other territory anywhere else. Yeah, so they didn't care, like, scoot, and they just stole all the foreign money.

Yeah, so they got somebody under that. Yeah, so I could—

yeah, so I can make another one. If you ask Cap, I can make a Wendy Day BMI. I'll just put in a different middle name, maybe Wendy L, Wendy Lauren Day, right? And that, that one's gonna— that one's gonna steal your royalties overseas. Yeah, and I'll put it into an admin deal. The whole night, right? Right. Yeah. So yeah, so that's a whole nother scam, like where you can make, make writer accounts, you know. And, and, you know, I know people that are like, um, you know, getting checks in other people's names and still cashing them and stuff like that, you know. Like they might have found the account and didn't tell their friend, but they got your check and your name coming to their address and they They're able to cash it and stuff like that. One guy just, one guy just paid, one guy just paid. I'm not gonna say that, but yeah, there's, yeah, that, that happens. That happens too.

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I've seen promotion guys work with new artists and realize that the new artist doesn't know like what to sign up for. So they go in and sign up for their SoundExchange, their BMI, their, you know, for them. And then they're getting the checks and they're cashing them. For life because the artist doesn't know that they're supposed to be getting money. They don't know.

Yeah, I mean, you, you asked before, what can these people do? I mean, they, they, they definitely— I mean, it's music business. I mean, if you just want to understand, if you just want to understand the first, the first word, the second word is going to hurt you, right? You know what I'm saying?

It should be called the music fuck shit.

Yeah, you know what I'm saying? I mean, like Oh, you know, I'm eventually, I'm gonna come up, come over to class.

Oh my God, that'd be awesome. You should do that.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I've been offered, uh, you know, I just gotta, you know, timing, but yeah, you know, it's time. Yeah. Yeah.

It's time.

Yeah. I could do that.

Are there, are there any books that you've read or any studying that you've done that, that's been helpful that an artist—

In the '90s, the Donald Passman and all that stuff and the book that pushed the book that Kashif came out with and, um, forgot the name of that. And I got some books.

All You Need to Know. One is Everything You Need to Know About the Music Business, I think.

Yeah, right. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, yeah, they were both— yeah, I bought it. I bought a couple of books recently or on some, uh, you know, on digital streaming and stuff like that, um, just to stay up, you know, everything that's going on. Um, but nah, I'm more just been the past decade or more just been hands-on, you know, going through the motions of everything. Um, yeah, hands-on. Uh, yeah, I mean, I read the books in the '90s, early 2000s. Yeah, but, um, no, I haven't really indulged in too many books, but hopefully maybe one day I'll come out with a book.

I wish you would.

Yeah.

Because artists know what to look for. I mean, they're still going to get taken advantage of. You can't stop somebody from swindling you, but at least if you know what to look for, they'll come to you sooner.

Yeah, I mean, I, the, I mean, the other way they can swindle you, I guess, is, you know, be if you're attracted to the advance or not, you know what I'm saying? That's the thing. That's, that's, that's how they're gonna get— that's how the other way they're gonna keep on gaining. If you, if you're a sucker for the advance then they can— this— they're going to be the producer of the manipulation.

Yes.

You know, so they can— oh, you didn't recoup yet, just like the Punisher.

Exactly.

No, right.

And that could have gone on forever. And, and that could have gone—

I mean, a lot of people had that. Londo McMillan had that case before me. A whole bunch of people had it before me. But I mean, I'm not to really, you know, she might have had like 4 lawyers before me from like the time Pun died to like 2010-ish or something like that. She might have had like 4 lawyers. All of them told her there was nothing there. What? Mhm. Wow. I remember one lawyer— I remember one, one lawyer calling me up like, like, you're wasting your time.

Yeah.

So let you know, huh?

If you want to waste— let you— if you want to waste your time, I mean, why is he even trying to stop you?

He— I mean, he, he realized— he realized, you know, about a year or two later that I didn't waste my time when I found all that money. And yeah, and And, you know, now she got homes in 2, 3 different states, you know? So, I mean, it's, you know, mind you, I met her in the homeless shelter. Wow. Yeah. You know, so yeah, Jellybean's crazy. Yeah, Jellybean's crazy. I don't, I don't know who, who would want to do an admin deal with him. Oh, actually, when I was in court with him, Trackmasters was in court with him at the same time. Trackmasters was in court with him too. Yeah, and they got, they got out, they got out the contract with him also.

So when it goes to court, can't they just say that they don't have to pay and declare bankruptcy and not have to pay anybody? Or do they?

Jelly Bean?

Yeah, like somebody— I, I don't want to say Jelly Bean, but somebody like a Jelly Bean, somebody that is is owing people money, back money, and you take him to court.

Well, that wasn't the narrative in his draft. And the narrative in his draft, he was highly confident that he was going to beat us.

Oh.

You know what I'm saying? So basically he came with the statute of limitations and I didn't prove enough accounting to prove $75,000 in the federal court., you know, and stuff like that. Actually, I think, actually, actually, actually, actually, I got it. I got it. It got thrown out. I think it got thrown out the first time. I remember my lawyer called me up like, yo, it's going to get thrown out if you can't prove the $75,000. And I remember me just sitting home for like a week or— and I proved it. Make a long story short, and then my lawyer called me back. She's like, oh, we're in. And then that's when I hired the auditor. I hired an auditor. And we found, you know, a couple million. Jesus.

Yeah, I think you might have the hardest job in the music industry, but also the most rewarding, because you're helping people that have been swindled and for the most part are broke because they can't really afford to chase that. Well, that—

well, that— yeah, well, that was the thing. In order— in order for her to fight this guy, it had— I had to pay for the case too, you know what I'm saying? So like, yeah, it did. It took— it definitely took some— he had to hire an auditor, had to pay the lawyer, you know what I'm saying? I mean, look at, um, we, we used, uh, Bryan Kaplan for the Showboys case. Yep.

I love Bryan. Bryan's who I use when I had to sue Cash Money. I used Bryan. He's amazing. He has no fear.

No, I remember, um, me, Brian, and the Showboys, we were going to do— we were— we filmed the documentary. Genius.com was going to do a documentary based on me, based on Brian in the, in the, uh, Plotnicki lawsuit against Profile.

I remember that.

Yeah, it never— yeah, it never panned out. But, um, yeah, yeah, that was us then.

It went in a different direction.

Yeah, yeah. But I think we still might do something about that though.

I think you should.

Yeah, let's do a documentary. Well, Orville wants to do something based on the Showboys and, you know, the history, the history of drag rap and everything. Yeah, I think some— his roller coaster ride will, um, will be incorporated in there. Yeah, in the film. Yeah. No, he got a great story. I mean, I, I, I, I was just at his house maybe like last month, and I didn't like know that he knew 50 Cent so well.

Yeah, he runs the studio.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that he knew— that he knew Tupac and Stretch, and he got all these Tupac stories and everything. I was like, wow, like, yeah, you should be— yeah, I think you— did you have an interview?

He worked for Jam Master Jay.

Yeah, you never interviewed, right? Yeah, you did?

No, I haven't yet, but I'm going to.

Yeah, please.

Yeah, he's a friend, so it's easy.

Okay. Yeah, yeah, good guy.

We've been friends for decades. He's also the guy that did the Adidas deal for Run-DMC. Remember at the Madison Square where they ever—

yeah, yes, yes. Yeah, I, I didn't know, I didn't know that until he told me that about 2 months ago.

Yep, he worked for Adidas back then.

That was him as a kid though.

Yeah, yeah, he was as a kid. 19 or something.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, but he's from Hollis, you know, and Hollis, I didn't know, I didn't know rooted like that. Yeah, yeah, absolute. Yep.

I love that we know the same people. This has been really amazing. Thank you so much. Is there anything that I didn't ask you that I should have?

Um, No, no, I mean, we, we covered some things, um, off top. I really can't really, you know, remember too much stuff.

Um, how do people get in touch with you if they need you?

A lot of people just hit me on Instagram. Okay, my name right here on Instagram. And, um, I mean, that people could start following my YouTube channel. Um, I didn't, I didn't really start anything yet, but I'm gonna be on YouTube, I guess, you know, probably, you know, telling a couple of things.

Could you, could you make the time to do that? Because I think people will really learn from you. Like, you're both, you're both reactive and you can stop people from getting jerked, you know what I mean? If they know how to protect themselves, they can.

Yeah, no, yeah, they can.

I love it.

Yeah, no, they can, they can, they can protect themselves, at least, at least to a point. You know what I'm saying? I mean, if they can find the mistakes in the software and stuff like that, that's a whole nother thing. But at least cover your bases and know the strengths and weaknesses of some of these companies. Like, say for example, like SoundExchange, people, you know, go to SoundExchange. Like, you know, like if, I don't know if people know, but they're not really too good in my opinion. We're collecting foreign royalties, you know what I'm saying? So I would recommend, I would recommend anybody here to go get a neighboring rights deal so, so, so you could do an international deal and just let, just let them do the domestic, you know what I'm saying? Because, you know, domestically they could see everything, they got the database, see everything. When everything else international is secondhand information, you know what I'm saying? They, they can't see it. You know what I'm saying? So they're relying on somebody else to make the registrations and things like that. You know, it's not, it's not as hands-on as like when they're doing it domestically. It's the same thing with the same thing, ASCAP and BMI. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? If you get— if you notice, next time look at that, look at your ASCAP or BMI CSAC statement, right? And if you notice the domestic statement an international statement, there's only one difference between the international and the domestic statement, right? And that's for all three companies. And the difference is, is that on your international statement, for the same songs that you have on the domestic side of the statement, US, on the international statement, there's no percentage. Oh, because they can't guarantee you're getting paid on that percentage. Because they can't see it, right? Because like I said, secondhand information, right? For all you know, you might have 50% of a record and it's the Wild West overseas. You might, you might be getting 5% of that record because somebody else is stealing 45. You just can't see it.

You just don't know.

Yeah, you just don't know. They, they will not confirm your percentage internationally, none of them companies.

And they take forever to pay.

So that, so that shows, so that shows you kind of like a flaw right there.

Yeah, because there's no way to check to make sure it's accurate.

I know, I know how to check, but I know how to check. Yeah, yeah, but I'm saying they— that's what I'm saying, I know how to check, you know what I mean? But they, they can't— the average person isn't— they're just going to take whatever comes in, of course.

Yeah, I think it's right, assume it's right.

Yeah, yeah.

No, it's not.

So these companies, I mean, they, you know, they might brag like every quarter, every year, like, oh, we brought in so many royalties for our clients and stuff like that, blah blah blah, you know what I'm saying? They try to— they give you the image like they got it all covered, but they don't, you know? Yeah. So whatever that— see, you know, whenever I see them writing stuff, oh, we, we maximize our royalty this year and this and that, it's like It's a, it's a joke, you know. It's a joke. It really is.

It's heartbreaking. It's a beautiful industry, but it's a crooked industry, and I'm addicted to it.

Yeah, well, yeah, me too. But I, I don't think, I don't think they're ever going to fix it.

I don't think so.

You know, I think actually I do have a book. I do have a book that mentioned the first record company to get caught stealing. Um, oh man, it was interesting. Back in like 1910 or 19 or something, some way early, this company was stealing— this company was stealing royalties. Um, and I think all the other companies kind of learned from that company, right?

Right. Yeah, you know, it goes way back. That's what I just learned. It goes all the way back.

Yeah, I'm just saying, they're not— they're not gonna fix it. They're not— they're not gonna fix it. No, they're not going to fix it. Yeah, because I mean, I think, I mean, I think some of these people got, you know, companies have shareholders and things like that. I don't think you could, I don't think you could tell the shareholders maybe like, oh, I found a glitch in the system and we're going to pay everybody. I don't think that's good for the shareholders per se. Like, like, oh, you're going to pay everybody? No, I don't hear that. Like That means our money's gonna go down.

That means we're gonna make less. Exactly.

Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Like, like at the end of the, at the end of the year, you know what I'm saying? Like I said, I think, I think, I think it's just, I think it's just right the way they want it, you know? It's efficient just like this. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? Like, hey, you guys are getting 10% of the royalties, you know, you guys got 10 points in your contract, we're getting 90%, um, you know, let's just keep it like that, you know? But you know, people doing these, people doing these copyright terminations now and getting it and getting, getting their deals restructured on the master end.

Yes.

Yeah, yeah, we just did. We just got that done. Uh, Kaplan helped out with that, uh, with Orville.

Good, good.

Yeah, so you know, some of these guys at least get their publishing.

I think that's 35 years, right? It's 35 years that it reverts in most cases.

It's 35 years and it's 35 years and 56 years.

Okay.

Yeah, with a— but with a 2-year window.

Oh, okay.

Yeah, so it's really 35 could go to 37.

Got it.

Yeah, I think there's a 2-year window. Yeah, so, and with the 56, the difference is with the 56 is that You can't— I don't think you can't— you can't dispute the master side on a '56.

Oh, you can't?

Yeah, you can't put a termination in for the— on the master side on a '56.

Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, so I'm just doing the quick math here. So 35 years from 2025 would be music from 1990 and earlier.

Yeah, so you can go back as far as '88 right now.

Interesting.

Yeah, but after— but after January, you know, that, that, that's gone, you know. Now you have to think— now you have to think of '89. '89, yeah, yeah. But yeah, it's 35 years with a 2-year window. 56 years, I think that has— I think that has a 2-year window also. But like I said, I don't think you can terminate— you can't file the US copyright termination for the master side with a 56. Got it.

Incredible.

Yeah, you know, but it's good to learn all that type stuff.

So much. It's, it's, it's important to learn that, especially for, you know, some of my friends that are older, like, that have put out music before 1990, you know?

Right. Yeah, yeah.

I've been listening to the records since 1980, so there's 10 years of artists that can get their copyrights back. That I know of personally.

So yeah, no, we've been— I just spoke to somebody yesterday. I mean, we're doing a termination for some Coachella artists.

Good.

Yeah, you know, um, that's so— yeah, so I mean, it's— yeah, I, I really enjoy it. I'm, you know, I'm fortunate.

Yeah, not everybody loves their job, and, and you not only love it, but you've got a great job. Like, you really help people for a living. And that's really, that's really beautiful. Thank you for doing it.

Yeah, thank you.

Thank you for what you do.

And yeah, I appreciate it.

It ain't easy, but I love you doing it. Keep doing it.