Your music in the movies?! Get in SYNC with these tips! | No Standing Zone Ep.3
In this episode of No Standing Zone, host Wendy Day interviews producer/artist Mr. Robotic (formerly Bullet) about how independent musicians can turn sync licensing into a sustainable business. The conversation moves from practical tactics—building relationships with music supervisors, using LinkedIn and sync reps, crafting briefs, and treating record deals as investments—to broader themes such as the importance of authentic storytelling, mental‑health advocacy, and the rise of AI in music creation. Mr. Robotic shares personal anecdotes about early placements, a three‑year “Nothing Lasts Forever” project that became his most‑synced work, and the challenges of navigating pop versus rap markets. He also outlines a business model that hires a dedicated sync team, leverages catalog exploitation, and uses disciplined financial habits (salary mindset, credit‑card leverage) to generate generational wealth. Throughout, both speakers stress that vulnerability, self‑care, and treating the music career as a business are essential for long‑term success.
Chapters
Mr. Robotic!
I'm here, I'm here! How are you?
I haven't seen you in so many years, and I love when I get to interview people multiple times because I don't normally do that. But you've got such an amazing story about how you've made money in music. I feel like I want you to be my poster child.
Oh yeah, that's, that's what— so it's crazy. So I think I was telling you that I almost had like the chess move, the checkmate last year, 2022 going into 2023. Like, I finally had a deal. Like, it was like there, like signature away, and it just fell through last minute. I was like, ah, like, because I wanted that to be like the story last year for us where we talked about everything from the last interview and then everything was executed for those next 2 to 3 years. I was just doing it. Yes. And I finally got to a space because, as we both know, when it comes to record deals It's not necessarily just the money, and the money was pretty huge, but it's also the terms. And I just figured out so much stuff over the last, what, 5, 6 years of how to go about things. And the fact that I am the one going to get the deal, I'm the one pitching, I'm the one like negotiating, obviously.
It's all on you.
It's all on me. And because I've been able to do that, I just, I have like mountains of information. I have so much because of that. So it's like, it's been an interesting 2 years. I love that. It's been an interesting 2 years.
So let's start at the beginning. Can you tell everybody, I knew you, I think, when you got like— you couldn't have had more than like 5 placements when I first met you. Like, I met you really early.
Yeah. And I think we met in person at the Music Dealers event. Yeah. So that's when I first started doing all of that. Yes. So yeah. So now I have like a little over 800 of them. So that's been a journey. And is there music—
is there money in music sync?
Yeah, so it's a lot of it, but I think a lot of people try to get into sync licensing, but they're doing it wrong. Like, the concept— it's, it's because there's so much music out there, um, that it's kind of like a gamble. So even if you think about a music library per se, it's like the music library is always going to get money because their whole thing is they have hundreds of thousands of songs. So which means whatever time they get a brief they're going to be able to execute that brief. And if they're getting 50%, they have 100,000 songs to pick from. So it's like the lottery when it comes to the artists at that point. So eventually, yeah, the library, their whole thing is, yeah, we want to help artists, help artists make money. But the reality is, if it's just so much music that they have, I mean, it just, it becomes a lottery at that point. So I think you have to kind of diversify. Like, if you, if your focus is Sync, you kind of have to diversify you know, your ways of going about it. So it's like maybe you have a music library, but you also have a sync rep. And then if you have a sync rep, you also are going out yourself to get contacts. And when people ask me for advice, I say, hey, like, you need to be getting contacts yourself, you know, 'cause it's like, it's kind of like a management situation. If your only thing is creating music and you have a manager and the manager is the one going out here to get all the contacts, so they have contacts and relationships already, that kind of leaves you vulnerable 'cause what happens if you and the manager fall out?
You know, you have no contacts, they leave with them.
And I've seen that happen a lot, especially here in Los Angeles. I mean, 13 years, I've seen so many people, like, they get the deal, but the deal is from like a middleman person or whatever, right? And let's say they fall out with the, the guy that got them the deal. It's kind of like, now you really don't have a deal no more, or your deal isn't going the way that you need to go because you might have pissed this person off, or, you know, or something might have just happened to him. The person got to an accident or something like that. So For some reason, I think music, maybe entertainment in general, is the only business where we tell the artists or, you know, creatives that all they have to do is make the product. And that, over the last few years, that's kind of been interesting to me because, as we know, this is 95% business, 5% creative. But we're telling people, I'm telling, you know, I try to tell them not to, but it's like 95% business, 5% creative, but they're doing 100% creative. And so sometimes when I'm, you know, sometimes I show my Instagram story, like I'll be partying or whatever, whatever. But I'm like, I'm doing a meeting in Dubai, I'm going to meet in London, I'm going to meet in India, because music is a global business. And that's another thing a lot of people don't recognize either, that you could probably close a deal out the country. You know, there's people with money, like you go to Dubai, they have money that is specifically for music. And so many people are like kind of just focused on the States. And I'm like, kind of broaden your horizons. And the good thing about dealing with people out the country is even if it's 2 in the morning, 3 in the morning, it's 1 PM, 2 PM there. So you can continuously pitch people all day and every day. You're not just focused on the United States. So I kind of show that on my Instagram stories. Like, hey, this is me, put on this blazer, like about to have a meeting, like, you know, and I try to show that because that's the job, in my opinion. I think that's the real job. So sometimes I run into people and I'm doing what I'm supposed to do as an artist, 'cause your whole point is make sales. Like, we gotta, we're here to make money. Like, we're building a business here. And I'll run into people, they like, yo, can you do that for me? And I'm like, no, you're supposed to do this for yourself. You know, the creative part to me is a luxury. The creative part is the fun part. Like, being in the studio is the fun part. That's where I have fun at, get to record some songs, cool. But what other business is there if you don't generate income that you have the business? Like, there is— then it's a hobby.
You're not making money, it's a hobby.
And I think that communication and talking point to artists kind of goes over their head. Like, anytime we've all said like, oh, it's going to cost you $150,000 or $250,000 to be in it, it seemed like that goes over their head because they'll hear some artists I got it for free. It's like, no, you didn't.
I don't know anybody who got on for free.
Not one.
Not one. Even the ones that publicly say they do, when I speak to them individually, they're like, no, my dad bankrolled me.
I just didn't want to say it. Or, you know, the issue I have with that is think about how many artists we've lost that just quit because they're like, oh, such and such said he put out a song a week for free, and now he's on. I'm putting out a song a week for free with no And nothing's happening. And no traction.
Something must be wrong. I must not be talented. And they might be 100 times more talented.
Exactly. And it's like, if that's true, if something is true, it should be able to be replicated. Thank you.
Thank you for saying that. I firmly— and that's why I give out so much information for free, because I want people to do what you're doing. Like, it's not like you've cornered the market on CINC, and if one other person gets a placement, you'll never make money again. There's enough money out here for everybody. Everybody.
And so the thing was, think, as I think maybe 2018, '19, there's this show called Silicon Valley on HBO. And it's just this one—
Love that show.
I love it. I love it. It really shows like, this is how you build a tech company and start a company. And it was this one— It was funny as hell. Yeah, facts. Facts. And in one, it's this one scene where I guess their enemy in the show, Gavin Belson, he bought their competition. And so they're high as hell. They're high because they're thinking their whole thing is over because— He bought their other competition. And he was like, one of the guys was like, no, he's actually did us a favor because the issue was we didn't know the value of our company because nobody else has a company like this. But he just put a value on our company. Put a value on our company. Exactly. So that's when I started using Sync in a different way. So for me, I was like, you know, let's say my biggest placement was $80,000 and I get multiple ones like even $10,000 or $20,000. Now I'm able to technically say, hey, my songs are worth this right here. So when it came to the deal that I had, that's how I was able to ask for such a high number because I was talking about the sync piece. And so I'm like, you know, I say, hey, let's, let's do a deal, but we have a B2B strategy, which is the sync licensing, that is doing brand partnerships and sponsorships, that which can kind of— if you have a team dedicated to that, it's pretty easier to recoup that budget compared to just sticking to a B2C strategy, which is, you know, streaming and hoping people buy your merchandise. And with streaming, 0.004 cents, it's like we gonna need about 100 million streams to recoup this money.
Really make money, yeah.
Compared to like, but we also have this strategy over here where it's like, oh, we got the syncs and we could go try to partner with Coca-Cola, which goes back to the Music Dealers event that we went to back in like 2009, 2010, where they had K9 as the keynote thing or whatever. And that's what kind of changed my perspective on the music. Like, wait a minute, all you need is capital. And they gave him what, a quarter million dollars for that song? Yep. For Wavin' Flags? And they paid him $17,000, I think, to like, I forgot what, but doing the shows.
But he became the spokesperson for what was it like the World Cup or something?
World Cup.
Some huge international, it was Coca-Cola that gave him the money.
Yes.
And then his manager was the international guy that worked at Arista Records.
Yes.
And his story was amazing.
Yeah. So that's when I kind of realized like, it's about I don't look at record labels as most people look at record labels. So I get furious sometimes when artists are, you know, you'll see rappers that were super successful but they're not on right now, or up-and-coming artists saying a record deal is a loan. Anytime I see that, I just wanna throw my phone, 'cause it's like you're looking at it wrong. A, it's not a loan 'cause you don't have to pay it back. It's an investment. And so if you look at Shark Tank, I tell people, you look at Shark Tank, if Mark Cuban gives you $500,000 for 25%, you have to pay that $500,000 back That's not a loan, that's him recouping his investment and he always owns 25% of the company. That's basically what a 360 deal is. They just get 25% or whatever percentage y'all agree to.
Right.
That's what you get, that's what a 360 deal is. So I think if other artists change their perspective of what a record deal is and look at Def Jam as Def Jam Venture Capital, Atlantic Alternative Investments, Interscope Invest, if they look at it that way, I think they would structure how they do things a little different. Differently, they will. Exactly, so it's like if you go watch Shark Tank, I tell them go watch Shark Tank and who gets the best deals. You can have the best product, but if you have no sales, you might still— they might not invest, or you might not get the deal on your terms. If you have a terrible product but you have some sales and you tell them, oh, we're making $500,000 this year, a million, one of them might invest. They might not believe in a product like that, but they like, well, it's making money. But it's proof of concept. Proof of concept. But if you have an amazing product and amazing sales, they want to be in business with you. And that's how I look at record labels. So that's how I go about pitching these days. I have a very solid pitch. And the fact I'm even able to get the meetings is weird, because I still look at myself as just like, artist, you know? So the fact I'm even able to talk to, you know, the hedge funds and stuff like that, you know, obviously it has to close, but the fact, you know, I'm even able to talk to them is kind of interesting for me. But, you know, my friends say, bro, of course they're talking to you, like, they're supposed to talk to you, you know, you're supposed to talk to you. Exactly, exactly. So that's what I want artists, other artists, or just creatives in general to say. I have to focus, start focusing more on the business side too. Um, because if you think about, uh, even artists on the come up, they'll say nobody believes in them or nobody's taking them serious. And I'm like, go make $10,000. I bet they'll take you serious right then.
You have to make people take you seriously. I had to make people take me seriously. Yeah, but you gotta prove, you gotta prove that you can do what you say.
Exactly. And your resume is crazy. Oh my God.
And, and I gotta tell you, I'm proving myself every day. I don't I don't rest on my laurels. Like, wait till you see what I have coming. You're going to be like, goddamn.
I'm excited. I'm excited for everything.
Like, I'm not playing.
Yeah, yeah. Especially the ones I always see on TikTok is you and it's like 2 other people or is it 1 other person that you guys have like these amazing— Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's called The Cheat Code. Yeah, yeah, that. Like, I watch that a lot and I just love the information you guys—
Thank you.
It's amazing.
It's just us talking shit about the music industry. It's us hanging out. And then this one that you're on is my new podcast, which is just mine. It's, it's called No Stopping Zone and No Standing Zone, excuse me. And I'm just introducing artists to people that have been successful in music so they can learn how to do it themselves.
Got it. Got it. Got it. Yeah, I love that. I love that concept. It's amazing. Hopefully I can give some great information today.
That's what we're here for. So how did, how did you get started? Take me back. I think you were in Chicago, if I remember correctly.
And was it EDM?
Were you doing—
so my name used to be Bullet, so that's when I was— I'm still rapping, and then I've had some successes with that, so I end up like got in the Source magazine, uh, all the blogs were posting me, Nah Right, 2 Dope Boys, I was all on their, uh, Hip Hop Game back then. Like, this is before blogs, so Hip Hop Game, like, that's right, I've been doing this, Jesus Christ. Um, so the Cool Kids came out, shout out the homie Chuck English and, uh, Mikey. I remember they came out and we went to the same— amazing. Oh yeah, we went— Mikey I remember Mikey stayed on the 4th floor. I was on the 6th floor in the dorm. And I remember seeing them go from nobody to like happens in a movie. I was like, what just happened? Where did you go to school? Columbia College.
Oh, I love— I spoke there so many times. How did I not speak to you guys?
Yeah, yeah, I was there.
How did you not meet me there?
That's amazing. That's crazy. That is crazy. I was there at Columbia College Chicago. That's home. There's family over there at Columbia. And I just remember, like, this is before, like, the tight jean era. So I'm watching people in tight jeans. I was like, wait, what's going on? I was so lost about what's going on. It was probably something about it because it's like on their MySpace they had, like, something called a big-ass cake, and it was, like, cake recordings. And I was like, what, what, what does any of this mean? I'm— but everything is happening. I'm like, it just looks like it's happening quick. And I love that. It was happening. It was happening very quickly. And so Chuck and Mike, they all treat me with respect because, you know, they know me from the school. I used to be a battle rapper, so that's how everybody knew me there, and I've already had some accomplishments with Bullet. So I remember, um, you know, Chuck and them, they're doing amazing. Um, and I remember seeing them like on a Rap City commercial, and this, like, there's so many things I've learned from watching them that I utilized for my career. So when I saw them at Entourage, I didn't know you got paid for that. I didn't even know what that was called. I just hear them out here, I'm watching my favorite show, and I just hear, I'm like, yeah, I rock with some girls stripping in a club, I was like, that's Mikey, like, what is this? You know, and then they had the Black Mags record and all of these things, so I'm watching them. And so I started changing the way I did music. I was doing obviously like just super rap shit, I think their first album was called Back to the Lyrics, but then I started doing like more futuristic stuff, like how my producer was producing, he always had like these weird beats, so I started rapping like that, and then that was—
Hence the name Mr. Robotic.
Bingo, so I was still bullied for like 2, 3 years, but I was able to get shows because of those records. That I was making. So my first, I remember telling you last time, my first show was, I think, like $800 to perform 3 records. So it was $800 and 15 minutes back in 2006, '07. That was like—
Not bad.
Yeah, it was like, wow, I could do this 10 times a month. Yeah. You know, make good money to perform 3 records. And that was just kind of my thought process. And it just kind of put me on the path that I was on. And then I remember I ended up doing— Z from DJ Booth took a liking to me because he was just like, yo, your music is really good. A lot of people were supporting me on DJ Booth. So I end up doing a record, like "Earth Girls." I was still Bullet when "Earth Girls" came out. But then I did the song "Mr. Robotic." And I'm still named Bullet, but the song's called "Mr. Robotic." So that song goes number 1 on DJ Booth. And I remember Z, he took me to a concert. I think it was a Busta Rhymes concert at House of Blues. And we were just having a talk about changing my name. Like, I remember this like yesterday. And I was like, OK, that makes sense. Like, Bullet doesn't seem sustainable. So I was like, OK, I'll be Bullet AKA Mr. Robotic because I did so much as Bullet. I didn't feel comfortable changing my name right away.
Right, you wanted to do the transition.
Yeah, the transition, exactly. So then, I'm trying to get on the radio in Chicago, B96, which is the big pop radio station there. And I remember somebody that was a mix show DJ, he was trying to charge me like $2,500 to do, to get on the mix show. And I'm like, that don't make sense because you don't get radio spins from the mix show. Like, the mix show is the mix show. So I obviously didn't deal with that situation. And literally, I just went on to MySpace, Back when MySpace was MySpace. I went to the B96 MySpace page and they had all the mix shows, they had the mix show DJ MySpace page, and I just hit up every single mix show person there, just reaching out, yo, can I send you some records, blah, blah, blah. One of the DJs' managers hits me back and he's like, yo, I manage DJ Bam Bam, you know, send us some records. So I sent him some records. He told me like the song Mr. Vice is like a little too soft for what they do, but I'll send you some beats. And, you know, rap. So I was like, okay, cool. So he sent me some beats, and one of the records got called "Watch the Club Go." So this is— so right before "Watch the Club Go" out, I'm getting into syncs now. So now I know this is when Music Dealers pops up because they knew who I was already. So they were like, oh, you a hustler out here, we always hear your name out here, whatever, why don't you like upload some shit to Music Dealers? So I was like, cool, I have no idea what this is, I don't know, but give me a placement for $1,000. I remember this, like, asking. I was like, wait a minute. This is in the iTunes era, where I was like, it would have took me selling a song to 1,100 people to get the same amount of money for this song playing for a minute. And, you know, I think this was, like, when Corbin Bleu was just after High School Musical. So the show I was in called A Beautiful Life on the CW, they only did the pilot. But it was like, oh, Corbin Bleu was playing my record on TV. I remember being in the basement with my mom. We watching on the little big TV down there., and we was like, wow, that's my song. Like, I was like super excited.
That's so cool.
Yeah, and I was like, that's cool.
That was your first placement, really?
That was my first one ever. And I was like, $1,000 from this, this makes sense. And right after that, "Watch the Club" was coming out, and then my graphic designer said, hey, you gotta make a choice. Is it Bullet or Mr. Worldwide? 'Cause we have to brand. And when I was Bullet, I remember I had a logo. It was like a bullet with a hat on, but he was like, thumbs up. It's like friendly, you know what I'm saying? Trying to like brand it correctly. And I remember showing the logo to one of my friends, his name is L, And he was like, bro, you got a brand now. And I have no idea what the heck he's talking about. But that matters, because when I become Mr. Robotic, I know every single thing to do from what I did with Bullet. So I knew the first thing. I was like, I'm probably going to get called corny in the beginning. So I remember being on Lakeshore Drive, and everybody like, oh, he sold out. Bullet sold out. His name Mr. Robotic. But no, but I know that I know what I'm doing. So I didn't care. And so now you start seeing like the logo Mr. Robotic. And then you see the dance music song come out. Because I told Bam Bam, hey, I'm changing my name to Mr. Robotic. So use Mr. Robotic. That song goes number 1 on Beatport, which is the big dance music. Side. Yes. And now all the mix show DJs are playing Mr. Robotic. They got— I got the huge biggest DJs asking me to come perform with them. DJ Rehab, like all these people. Zedd's playing the record at his tours. I'm like, now the problem with this is, remember, I'm doing everything by myself. I have no idea what was going on. If I had a manager at that point, I think I probably could have navigated that way better, um, because I had like the biggest DJs reaching out for me to do vocals and stuff like that. And I'm not even thinking like, oh, if I do vocals I shouldn't even charge these people because—
No, because it spreads your brand.
Exactly. And then they'll have me go perform the song with them on the big stage. Like, I just— stuff I don't know. You don't know until you know. And, um, that's what was happening, you know, back then. And, um, the crazy thing is, when I decided to make the move to LA in 2011, B.Dot from Rap Radars, he was already writing tweets about me. He was like, oh yeah, quietest cat Mr. Robotic is doing better than the sewer rappers. Like, I was gonna frame that tweet just to, you know, keep myself sane. But, um, He was supposed to document me like Macklemore, how they get Macklemore and Ryan Lewis, like that, like all the emails from that. So that was like, oh, that's perfect. I'm definitely moving to LA. Already had things set up. I performed at the E3 video game conference, uh, and all these things I had set up. I was, uh, doing a show with America's Best Dance Crew at Club Cress whenever that was around. It was all of these things going on. And I guess maybe Elliot maybe was like, ah, we're not gonna, you know, which is cool, I don't care, you know. But at least they know who I am and who I was. Exactly. That's all I cared about. And then William Ketchums, you know, pretty big journalist, um, he, uh, he hit me up, you know, because he was super cool, and he was just like, bro, honestly, just focus on the synths and dance music. That, that makes the most sense. And I just really just, just focused on that. Um, the problem with that is being a Black guy in dance music, like, most labels, they don't get that. And that was weird for me because do you not see how successful Flo Rida is? Do you not see how successful Pitbull is? Like, it should just be common sense. And it's like, yeah, and then you add the sync stuff or whatever, it just like, those few years did not make sense. It felt like a no-brainer. And so I just like, maybe it's just something I gotta do on my own until, you know, whatever happens happens. So that's kind of the start of all this.
I love that, I love that. So when you are, when you are pitching syncs Yeah. And I'd like you to talk about when you first started as well as now, because I know it's different now. But did you just get a list and start calling people, or did you build relationships? Like, how did you get started? And then how do you do it now?
So two things happened, which was the music dealers thing. And now I was building my relationships with everybody at music dealers. So everybody knew me, Eric Scheinkopf, John Williamson, like all the powers that be, they just knew of me. And I will always ask, ever since the Coca-Cola keynote, I used to beg them, can you please get me a Coca-Cola campaign? It's all I need. 'Cause I'm thinking I'm gonna get $150,000. I was like, that's all I need to do. I'm like, I'm accomplished. No money. You know, imagine $100-some thousand and a Coca-Cola behind me, like, oh, it's lit. So they did give me one small Coca-Cola campaign, which was pretty cool. And I took advantage of it. Like I shot a whole commercial myself. And the funniest thing ever is the guy who shot that commercial for me, he was like Chief. I think he still is, for Revolt. I think he's like the chief—
Oh, that's so cool. The head video guy.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Coca-Cola was like, hey, what? It's weird how all this stuff just kind of comes together. So I was taking advantage. I knew other artists aren't going to really take advantage of the idea that they just did something for Coca-Cola and music dealers. I was like, I'm going to shoot a commercial. I'm going to reach out to people at Coca-Cola. Hey, can I do a bigger situation? And so that's how I did that with music dealers. Then my friend Alicia Davis, who used to work at ASCAP, she knew I was doing the sync stuff too. And it was a guy there by the name of MJ, um, who I guess was maybe a sync rep or something. He just knew everybody, so she connected me with him. So he would start getting me syncs as well. So he was, uh, repping me. He just got me a bunch of, uh, sync stuff too. So between music dealers and him, that was doing pretty well. Um, and then I think maybe a year or two years later, I remember— I think he stopped doing it, I'm not sure. I remember he would have the email contacts in all of our emails when he's sending me. So I'll just reach out to them, they already know who I am. So I was like, okay, cool. And then a funny thing is, I'm trying to see, did I meet Keir? I think I might have met Keir through MJ. So Keir is the guy who made the Spider-Man. So Keir put me in my first movie, which is, uh, Stomp the Yard 2. Oh, that's awesome. So awesome. Yes, I kept that relationship for like, you know, it's been what, 13 years? Feels like it's been 13 years now. And so it's just interesting seeing him He's at Sony and he's doing Spider-Man. He was doing, the funny thing, I was trying to get him to get me in 22 Jump Street, 22nd Jump Street, was the first one, 21st? And there's a scene where I think Diplo was in there. So the other thing I was trying to do, remember I say when I do syncs, I'm thinking about totally different stuff. So with the CW, remember they used to have all these college shows or high school shows in the CW? I remember. They would always have a prom episode. So I was trying to pitch, I was trying to, whoever was repping me, MJ or I was trying to reach out to somebody, 'Hey, you think I could perform on the, on the episode for the prom?' Whatever. And I was so close twice. I was close twice, but it just never happened. I want to do that for the 22 Jump Street movie, like, 'Hey, is there a scene where I could like perform?' You know, or something like that. I think that's so awesome because nobody else is doing that, so let me just try to ask. Um, so that's, that's what was happening for a while. Then like I said, I got the contacts myself and I just started reaching out to people myself. They'll send me briefs and then, um I lucked up and got a sync agent in 2016 by the name of Michelle Byers. So she's amazing. She's been with us for like 20-something years. I think she was a part of Tommy— I think she helped build Tommy Boy Records' whole sync department, if I'm not mistaken. I think she made them like $3, $4 million in like a year and a half or something.
Just awesome. How did you find her? How did you choose her?
I think one of the music supervisors I was working with, he advised that, oh, why don't you just get a sync rep? And I was like, okay, and he connected me with her. So I was like, oh, perfect. And she was just perfect. And she changed my situation from 2016 to like now, pretty much. Since 2016 to 2021, 'cause then the pandemic happened. So everything started kind of getting slow. So for me, when things started getting slow, this goes back to what I was saying about like people dependent on agents or dependent on managers. Just like the fact that 6 years ago, 7 years ago, I know how to go pitch people. I just like, oh, I just gotta get back to that. So it was funny, like during the pandemic, I was like, I have all of these syncs, I could utilize that. So that goes back to the conversation we just had with the Silicon Valley. It's like, wait a minute, I got these, I got some big placements. Couldn't I like pitch an investor or somebody to like buy some songs up front? And then I'll either try to help pitch it or we can like put them out there. So I did end up closing a deal during the pandemic. I sold 5 songs for $5,000 each. So I made $25,000 just selling some songs. During the pandemic. Yeah, so that happened. And right after that, I get a call from somebody that wants to use my music for the Will Ferrell movie Eurovision on Netflix. My biggest placement TV, TV film-wise that I've had, which I got on my own. So, um, that happened on back to back. So it's like the pandemic was like fun for me, kind of, you know. And then from there, I was like, wow, I clearly know how to pitch now. I know how to, I know how to sell music at this point. Um, let me Aim for something bigger. This is where Hypnosis Song Swan comes in. So now I was like, okay, I reached out to somebody from there and I had pitched this idea. They said, yeah, come to, I think they have, I forgot what it's called, where they have several people pitch. I don't know what that's called, but they were doing it over Zoom. And I was like, okay, I got the meeting. How the heck do I pitch? This goes back to Entourage. Ari Gold pitches the Super Bowl. I just, they luckily, they had it on YouTube. I want to see how long did it take him to pitch and whatever time he did, that was the time I was gonna use. And I saw he didn't have a, he had like a little packet, but he didn't have like a little, what do you call it, like a PowerPoint. It was not that, it was basically, I'm Ari Gold, y'all are here for a reason, you know what I can do, this is what I'm pitching to you, this is why you should do it, this is how much money we can make, the end. Like it was just like this confidence factor of, I know what I'm talking about, this is what we're gonna do, And you know, and I promise you, I did that meeting. There's 7 people on there, um, pretty big people. I was like, oh wow, they're talking to little old me, cool. And they told me I gave them the best pitch they've had in 3 months. And this is all Entourage. And I tell Doug, I tell— I tag Doug Ellinor now all the time, like, yo, thank you for this show. This show has changed my life. It's the reason I moved to LA. Like, every— I think anything related to my career is because of that show.
Isn't that amazing?
Yeah, yeah.
And it was such a great show to begin with.
It really was. And just this idea that, you know, you could live a life like that. You know, that's what I really cared about. Like, somebody's like, it's not even chasing your dream, I'm living the dream, right? With my friends, living the dream. You know that they don't— I mean, their job is— he's acting, my friend's the agent, management. Like, you know, we're either at restaurants, we got home, we're doing either the movie or we chilling at a beach or something like that, or we in Vegas. And I was like, my life needs to be that. And I just— I won't stop till it's just That's that.
Yeah, I love that.
13 years ago.
I love that. So if I'm an artist, can I just get a list of music supervisors and just start calling them up? Or can I go to— I know Variety magazine lists what's in production. I don't know if they list the music supervisors, but is it okay to call people in this world, or do you have to know them and build a relationship?
The only reason I would do it, because we know everybody else is emailing and doing things. So usually I advise you, LinkedIn first. If you can't get through to them, like with a LinkedIn message, and usually I'll tell them what to say, I'll call. Like, I've gotten a lot of meetings just in the last year because when my deal fell through, I was kind of out of it. Screw music, I don't care. But, you know, once I snapped out of it, I was like, you know what? We're not in control. We're not in control no matter what. Like, I could have the best pitch, you can have the best pitch. We not in control if somebody says yes or no, you know.
We don't know what their needs are.
We don't know.. And so I said, only thing I'm in control of is how much I work. That's the only thing I could do. I started developing that mindset. So I think I try to tell people it's a numbers game, you know. So I say with LinkedIn, add 10, 20 people a day, that's 50 to 100 people a week, that's 400 people, I think, a month. And I would just do that and then I'll just pitch and hope you got 10, 20 people to say yes. And I think that goes back to our conversation about people really treating this like a business and a sales job. We all know You know, you got to hit a certain amount of numbers, which is what prospects, in order to get one. And it's like, I don't think people should treat music that way. And it's like, if you treat music that way, you'll win. It's not about, it's not about the, the, uh, oh, this person said no, the person said no. Who cares if they said no? Usually, yes.
You know, I learned years ago that no really just means not now, because so many people that have told me no in the past come back to me and say, hey, are you still, are you still doing what you were doing? Because I need it now. It's like, yeah, I am.
Exactly. Exactly. So I think, I think that's the key, which goes back to that conversation of everybody thinking this is easy. And that's something I try to show the good parts and the bad parts, especially on Instagram. Like, I'm having a bad day. Hey, I'm having a horrible day. It's like, so many— I don't want people to like look at my life and just be like, oh, he's lucky or what. Like, I hate that.
It's not easy.
This is one of the hardest.
You're just willing to do the work.
I'm gonna do the work until, until I get it. Me too. Um, it's one of the hardest things you could do. And it's like, I think people forget how many people you're competing with. Yes, that's not even broadcast enough. Like, even when you say 100,000 songs a day, it's like, I don't think a lot of artists are grasping that concept of how many—
no, they can't wrap their hand— their heads around it, so they don't realize how much that really is.
Yeah. And, and to think you're gonna get there with no money, like, that's That's the main thing I want to communicate. Like, McDonald's is the biggest, right? And they still spending tens of millions of dollars on advertising.
You're just gonna make it because you know, if you're not in front of somebody's face, they're not gonna remember you.
I'm gonna remember you. Like, it's weird. Like, and we're in a what have you done for me lately kind of business. It's like, yes, I act like 50 Cent is it. 50 Cent, it looks like this guy just sold out a whole or globally. Like, you know, 90% of artists can't do that right now. And sometimes people try to act like he's not him, and this is someone who sold the most amount of records than anybody, you know. So it's like, if he got to go through that and these other people haven't even sold that, it's just like, you know, I, I don't understand it.
Exactly.
I don't get it. Yeah.
When, when you're, when you're pitching, um, And is it music supervisors? Is that the right way to explain them?
I get a lot of briefs now just because of where I'm at in my career. I just get a ton of briefs these days. Um, but yeah, so usually music supervisors, uh, it's finding a music director at ad agencies, um, because commercials is—
oh right. Oh, and there's gaming too.
There's gaming, TV.
Exactly.
And that's the other thing I try to tell people. It's like, we're in such a global business that, you know, I told somebody the other day, I think, uh, the homie Diamond, I was telling him, um, you know, just even like finding a local business, find a business that just needs the music for their social media. Like, it's, it's a lot of ways that's not what's deemed traditional that you can make money from this to actually finance you getting into the next space in your next level. Yeah, so the whole concept is like making money with your music so you're, you know, so you can keep making money with the music. So it's like going back to the— it costs $150,000, $250,000. I think where everybody else still gets that messed up is we're not saying You need $250,000, like, in a lump sum. We're saying, like, okay, over a period of a year and a half. Exactly. It's over a period. It's about, like, reinvesting, you know, just reinvesting until you get to that, to that point. Exactly. And I watch MrBeast. He says that all the time. He says, I'm broke because I keep reinvesting all my money back into the video.
I do the same thing.
Yeah. And that's what I'm always broke.
And, and, and I'm fine with that because I, I have the long-term vision. I know what's coming.
Long term. And a lot of people don't look at long term, and that's That's why I get so frustrated with like artists, you know, shitting on labels and stuff. Like, why are you shitting on people that gave you the money to do what you want to do? That don't—
Yeah, like nobody's ever believed in me and given me anything.
So it's like, it's like, you know, that's why I got actually excited. I was watching, I forgot what podcast that was, with somebody from TDE went off on an artist on TDE. I guess I think his name Reason or something. He was an artist on TDE. And I guess like, I think the guy's name is Musa or something like that, which is, It might be Top Dawg's son or something. And he called into the podcast. He was like, you know, 'cause this guy who we gave money to and, you know, we signed him and we're trying to push him is like shitting on us. And it's just like, that was the first time I seen an executive, you know, actually say—
Fight back.
Yeah, fight back. And, you know, I know Kevin Lyles tries to sometimes. He tried to on Breakfast Club where he was like, come on guys, be serious. Are we business people or not? Like, you know, so I see executives wanna say something. And for me, 'cause I'm coming from the artist, perspective, but I also do have to do the business too. I get it, I get it, I get it. And you realize how much money people lose. That's the other part that's not talking, you know, talking about how much money I lost just on me just trying to— because the other thing, you don't know what record is going to work, you know. Exactly. We don't know. So it's like, you know, and I remember some engineer on Twitter, he was saying he felt that engineers should get a percentage of the record And I'm like, and I said something about that because I'm like, I could have 10 songs that don't work. And this is becomes a bigger problem. I got 10 records that don't work. You want a percentage of the one record that worked out of the 10 records where I could finally recoup the money and everybody else gets a flat fee.
Engineers get hourly fee.
Hourly fee. Like artists are losing so much money and it's like, I don't think they realize it because Japan engineering. You're paying a producer, you're paying for mixes, you're paying for master, you're paying for music video, you're paying marketing, you're paying all of this money. You are in the red most of the time.
And most people don't make it. Most people stay in the red. Most people don't have a successful song.
They don't.
Very rare.
Exactly. And so now people only want a piece of the one successful record that you finally got something.
That you got.
You know, and I think that's unfair. And you know, that's why I always try to speak up for artists. I see producers, you know, shit on artists all the time. We need as much credit as the artist. And it's like, I disagree with that, especially if somebody paid you. Like, you already made your money. And I get this whole concept of I did 50% of record, you did 50% of the record. But what happens if nobody does nothing after the song is created? It's gonna sit on a hard drive. Yeah, you know, it's like, and I don't think that's credit. I think they want the same amount of visibility as the artist because they feel like they're a part of this. I think so too.. And I'll tell them, go pay a publicist. Like, if I gotta pay— and this is something I realized back in college when it came to that first album I did. I wasn't thinking like this, 'cause I'm a college kid, you know? But I'm like, wait a minute, producers, they produced this album with me, but I paid for all the studio time. You know, I'm the one that figured out the sync stuff. Like, it's me doing all this. And I thought about the PR angle, 'cause that's what I learned from the cool kids. I was like, how are they getting all this press? And I just went to they MySpace, I saw something called US Publicity Biz 3 for— I was like, Oh, they have a publicist. Okay, what is a publicist? Like, that's how I found out about all this stuff. And I ended up getting a publicist, and she told me how much it was gonna cost. So I just asked for more than I needed for my tuition. That's honestly how I paid, you know, for that. But the fact that you got two other people willing to— that's working with you on this project, and you're the only one putting up the money, that's kind of like, what? And I thought about this 6 years later from when this was happening. And then I thought about when I'm in a Source, obviously I'm gonna shout my people out. Oh yeah, Central Just Produce produced it. And I'm like, wait a minute, they get to post this same screenshot from this magazine that I just had to pay a PR person to get me these interviews, and they didn't chip in, you know? So it's not a bad thing, but it's about—
it's a reality.
It's a reality. And realizing you are the one with the leverage. If you're an artist and you're the one financing your career, you're the one with the leverage. A lot of times artists don't see themselves as that. That's why you— I think you would need to have a business set up. You know, when you make your first check, have a business set up, and you're the boss. You are. Yes. You're the boss. Reinvest in yourself. Reinvest in yourself. You're the boss because you're paying everybody and you don't know if you're going to make that money back.
Exactly. So if I'm, if I'm sending out, um, let's say I'm sending out emails, although I heard what you said about LinkedIn and that's brilliant, but let's say I, I know 10 music supervisors and I send emails to all 10. Do I include a link to my music or do I attach my music? Do I use Disco? Like, how do I get my music so that they can— or is it too soon to even do that?
So I would say I was like, I wouldn't solicit them the first time. I'll just say, hey, can I send you— I know you're working on this TV show or this film. Can I send you 2 of my 3 best songs that I think would fit for that? You know, and I'll just wait till they say yes.
And you make it topical to whatever they're working on.
That's the other part. A lot of people don't even research the music supervisors they're reaching out to, just like, hey, can I send you my music? Compared to, oh, I know you're working on this show. You can find them on IMDb. Like, so if there's a movie that you're interested in, go find that movie on IMDb, and they usually have the cast, crew, sound department. You go to the sound department and it'll show you 9 times out of 10 who the music supervisor is. And then you use that for LinkedIn. 9 times out of 10 they're on LinkedIn, and then you add them, you get the contact, and then you pitch. Got it.
Got it. And if they say yes, then you send them songs. But how do you know? Oh, you send them the songs that have the vibe of whatever they're working on.
Exactly. And then you just play the follow-up game, just like maybe once every week, maybe, just to say, you know, because usually they'll tell you if they're gonna use the songs, they'll just tell you, but they get so much songs that it's kind of hard to, you know, so that's the hard part, which goes back to like having 100 people that you're hitting up so you're not just so focused directly.
So you get one.
Exactly, exactly. So I think that's what it is. And I think as people try to grow in this career path, Their whole goal is to be as self-sufficient as possible. Exactly. Because you don't want to— you don't want your whole career being in somebody else's— like, you don't want a music supervisor to have to place your music for you to, like, be able to live. Like, you know, you need to have 20 of them. You need to have, you know, you need to have your merch business set up. You need to have, like, all of these things going on so you don't feel the pain of, like, kind of like what actors— if they don't get a movie, they don't get paid, you know? So exactly. Yeah, you know, that needs to be, I think, an artist mindset. Like, I need to have so many things going on that I'm going to be okay if this person says no. I'm going to be okay if it's going to take me— and that's something I've had to work on. There's times where I had to learn that it's probably going to take me 3 to 6 months to get a deal. Like, with a certain person or a certain company, it might take 3, 6 months of negotiations. So I need to have 10, 15 other things going on, whether it's, like I said, pitching for syncs, am I pitching investors for a record deal, Am I doing verses for somebody? Am I writing for somebody? You know, maybe I could be a strategic music— I'm a strategic music advisor for a tech company right now. Like, it's like—
I love that.
So random, you know, just like little old me, like, wait, what? But, you know, it's about just diversifying. Because if you think about it, the most successful people— well, successful artists in the industry are the people that have multiple things going on. Like, Jay-Z is like— I thought about this, like, no, he's always been an executive. I didn't really put that together because I was like, that's how we got the president of Def Jam. If Jay-Z never had that 33% of Rockefeller, he wouldn't even be in the running. They wouldn't even consider them to be the president. Exactly. So, but it's like, what is that? It's a multi-million dollar record company. What is Rockefeller? Multi-million dollar record. So Leon can easily go pitch to whoever he had to go pitch to make Jay-Z the president of Def Jam. Because I was like, why didn't they make anybody else? Irv Gotti or any other people that's just known to be an executive. And I was like, oh, Jay-Z is an executive and he's a rapper. So it's kind of like the basketball player turned basketball team owner.
Like coach or owner. Yeah, exactly.
They're going to listen to him because he knows how they feel like. And I understood that branding thing for him. And the beauty of that is what I've learned too is more— and this is something I do for myself, which is why I like syncs, because it keeps you in the music business even though it takes so long for me to put out an album because I'm not doing it without a budget. But because I'm still doing the sync stuff, I'm still doing this and You know, I help my DJ friends out, get them gigs. You know, it keeps you— it keeps you in the music business, um, without having to go do stuff outside of it. And it's like, oh, do you still do music? Like, no. And it kind of still kind of keeps you relevant in it until whatever you need to close closes. And I noticed that about Jay-Z is that those years he didn't put out an album, he was still in the music business. Yes, he was still highly respected. And the smartest thing I saw was, you know, is putting him in the room with other CEOs. So, you know, so now you're cool— you have to be cool with Michael Rapinoe, you know, at Live Nation, you know. So because you got artists that need to tour, so now you're building these— this relationship with him. So by the time your Def Jam run is over, y'all probably already talking about Roc Nation, you know, throughout the—
they were. Remember, he got the advance. So I think he was the first— he and Madonna were the first artists to get the advance from Live Nation. Was the 360 deal.
Wow. Yeah, yeah.
So they got advances for their touring.
And it's like, I felt like that Def Jam presence just helped him out so much because people know that he could run a company. So I was like, he doesn't get that if he's just Jay-Z the rapper. Exactly. That's what was appealing to me and the reason I even do what I do now, because I'm like, the more I can close a deal, I can go close the deal for somebody else because I'm learning everything for myself.
You have the relationships and you have the knowledge.
Exactly. So the fact I'm able to do that now, and this is why I tell people You know, life is The Karate Kid. Like, that's all this is. Like, remember when, um, he was, uh, the wax on, wax off scene where, you know, he's learning how to sleep and all this stuff, but he has to sleep in a certain way, he has to like wipe the car a certain way, and he's complaining the whole time not knowing he's really been taught to fight, you know. So by the time he's done, he— Mr. Miyagi didn't have enough of him complaining. He's like, damn, son, block! And now he knows how to block, he knows how to— he knows exactly he knows how to punch now. And it's just like, that's life. You think everything that might look like it's not going in your favor is actually really going in your favor. Because half the time, it's teaching you something. And that's one interesting thing about life I've learned over the last few years.
One of the, one of the things that, that I've learned about sync, and correct me if I'm wrong, please, because you're way more fluent in this than I am, is that they prefer indie labels over major labels because we can we can close the deals faster, quicker. And can, um, can you talk a little bit about what the standard paperwork looks like? Like, what type of deal can somebody expect on— and I'm sure it's different for the first placement as opposed to somebody that does this for a living. So maybe if you could talk about those two extremes, it would be helpful.
So usually it's, uh, it's like worldwide, right? So they get to use it You still own the song most of the time. So you own the song.
You don't have to give up publishing?
You don't have to give up publishing. Great. The only time you give up some publishing is if you have like a sync agent and you're giving up like 25%, you know, or co-pub.
Is that worth it to do?
I think if you're starting out, yeah, because they have all the relationships. And I mean, let's say if they're giving you a sync at $5,000, I mean, they got— usually it's 50/50, but if you have some leverage, you're 60/40. But you know, it's $5,000, even if it's 60/40 split, you're getting $3,000. $1,000, they get $2,000, but they get you multiple placements, you know, 4 placements a month at that price, that's $12,000, you know, and then is that for the life of the song? Or is that just for that placement?
Yeah, so for that, uh, you go get another placement with that song down the road, they don't get a piece of that.
That's whatever they place.
Got it. So it's not technically ownership. It's really a revenue split.
Exactly. Exactly.
I didn't realize that because it kind of made me a little salty that somebody would have to give up a percentage of their ownership on a song to get a placement.
That's the specific whatever they place, unless you have a deal with somebody, you know, then yeah, got it. That's that. And then, you know, you're gonna see just like some licenses, $500, $1,000, some is $5,000, some is $10,000. If you get like a flat fee, a flat fee. Yeah, for a flat.
And my experience is when they tell you what the fee is, that there's not a lot of wiggle room.
That's the other part. And then, um, it's not like they're lowballing you expecting to negotiate.
It's like, we got $5 grand for this, take it or leave it, because there's another guy on hold.
So I had to get to a point where just like I had to tell myself, I'm not submitting, I'm not doing anything under a certain number. And so that's just a thing. So you gotta be able to say no, be in a space where you can say no, like, because it's like It's been certain companies that like, you know, I have like huge producers, like super huge producers that I work with and, you know, that I got songs with, you know, um, stuff that's for the album that's coming out, whatever. And people be wanting like these huge producers, but they want to pay the least amount of money.
I was like, yeah, somebody charged $1,000 for a producer that's charging $50 grand a track.
Exactly. And that's probably the craziest thing I've had to do in the last 3 years. People like, yeah, we want to work with you, want to work with this person, work with this person. I'm like, well, hey, here's a budget. Oh, that's too much. We had this. And I'm like, how do you expect—
because that's what I hate about this, for that.
Yeah, like, that's what I hate about the music business. It's like, you would think at a certain point in your resume that that shouldn't even be a conversation. They should expect to pay this amount, and it's just not like that.
It's not like that. Yeah, it's, it's, it's an ignorance is bliss philosophy, I think.
Yeah, yeah.
So that's why everybody wants something for nothing. They want the discount, they want the homie price.
Yeah, it was like a podcast company I was pitching to. I'm also like, hey, could we do the, the music, like, you know, for the background music or something like that? Like, here's the producers we work with or whatever. And I love that because of the problem with a lot of the companies is like YouTubers and stuff, they'll use like, uh, companies that, uh, you know, obviously it's cheap. Like, you use an audio network, you know, it's $10, you get whatever song, $10 a month or something. Was like You don't have any brand identity. There's no sonic, like, what do you sound like? And I don't think people think about that till it's too late. But also everybody can have this song and you're spending money and you don't own it. And so my whole pitch to them was always, well, you get to own it. Like, we're creating your sonic identity and you get to own the records at the end of the day. But the thing about being a creative is we can make a billion songs. Like, I don't care. Yeah, there you go. You know, and, um, and they'll try to lowball you. Like, oh, you think about like $100. $100 for what? Like, what are we— that's not gonna happen.
Yeah, yeah.
Like, it's It's so insane. And it hurts the most when it's like companies, you know, you'll go on Music Business Worldwide and you'll see like, oh, such and such just got funded $1 billion to buy music. And you think, oh, those are the people to pitch. That's how I find prospects. I just go on Music Business Worldwide, I find out who got funded, and then those are who I spend my day finding, the people that work there, and I'll go pitch. And it will be like, you would think you're asking for a fair price, and then they always just, I remember one situation, it went from like $8,000 a song to 2 grand. And like 2 greater records. I think I was— we were splitting, uh, I think it was a 60/40 split. Yeah, but the thing with that is I was supposed to do 100 records— no, 300 records. We were supposed to do— so what I was pitching was doing alternative versions. So anytime you bought a catalog, you know, something— somebody might want Rihanna, "We Fell in Love in a Hopeless Place," but they might can't afford the original copyright. So hey, we would go in and like do an alternative version of it, like the EDM version of it, or a trailerized version of it that sounds good for movie. And so they might If they can't afford that, they can afford $30,000, $40,000 for our version, and you'll have 300 of these for different songs in the catalog. So I closed that deal. I love that. And closed that deal, and it went from like, we supposed to do 1,500 songs, then 1,500 songs turned into 300 songs. And, you know, I was like, okay, 300 songs, cool, $300,000, $2,600 grand, like, let's do it. Like, and that turned into 10 songs, and then it turns to 2. So it's like, even after you close the deal, it still—
It still changes.
It's not guaranteed. So that's probably the roughest thing I've had to deal with.
Another, another thought that I have, or maybe a misconception, is that most usages are flat fees. Is there ever a time where you're paid like an advance and then a royalty every time the commercial runs or the movie runs? Or is it always a flat fee?
So for That's so when you get paid from the commercials, that's going to be the backend, like the ASCAP or BMI, like your publishing and your writer side. So commercial, that's when you get paid. So it's an upfront fee for your master, for them to own a master, not own a master, for them to license the copyright and the publishing part. So let's say if you got a $10,000 sync, it's like $5,000 for the master, $5,000 publishing side, right? So that's that. And then if it's a commercial and it runs all the time, you're gonna get paid more than like if you were like on an MTV show. Like, I still get paid for like Jersey Shore, but it's not a lot of money. Like, you know, it's like pennies, you know, but it still adds up because that's still something.
Yeah.
So much, so many cents or whatever.
I did it. I did a deal for one of my artists for Grand Theft Auto. And it was just a, it was a flat $5,000.
Also, was it a buyout?
Yeah. $5,000. It was $5,000. I mean, we, they didn't have it exclusively. We could still put it out. But it was $5,000 for the master and the publishing, and there were no royalties because it was a video game, which is kind of a shame because look how big Grand Theft Auto is.
Exactly. So that, that's the thing of like trying to figure out how do we structure deals where it's like, how do I be a part of it in a bigger way kind of a thing? So that's what I try to— that goes back to when I said like, oh, can I perform on a show that I'm doing so much music for? You know, like just kind of like brainstorm, like how can I be a part of— because you guys have the budget, like like you said, Grand Theft Auto, the video game studio. I've got the name of the video game studio that, you know, Grand Theft Auto. But it's like, can I be a character? Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, yeah, just something random that, you know, they're probably not even thinking about. But if you came up with it, you know, they'll probably do it.
They might be happy to do it.
Yeah, so that's what I think. Um, yeah, and I think even with buyouts, like, it was one company, it was a TV network, and they actually had the strategy that I always thought, like, why don't— it goes back to, like, building a library for a company, because I think that's I think that's smart because over the long term, you own the music that you're paying for. So it was one TV network that actually understood that. So we did like 3 songs for them at $4,500 each. And that was perfect. And now they can use that song, whatever TV show they gonna put on the network, whatever films, they can just use the song. Because like, I get with some people, they're just like, you know, I think I should own the masters. We gonna have this masters conversation because I think a lot of artists need to hear this whole math because I don't think they know what the heck they're talking about.
Please explain it.
Yeah. When it comes to Masters, a label investor is buying that from you. There is like a painting. If I pay you to make me a painting, I give you $50,000. That is my painting after I bought it. If I want to put an art show in my apartment with your painting and charge people $1,000 and 1,000 people come and I make a million bucks, off your $50,000 payment. You can't come back to me and say, you only gave me $50,000 and you made a million, I feel scammed. That is the craziest thing I've ever heard. And the fact that these are real conversations that people are having, it's insane to me. And I used to get so frustrated with it, but I'm like, that actually works in my favor. Because when I go pitch, and I know what the heck I'm talking about, they like working with me. Like, because they know I'm not gonna be like, yeah, I need to own the master's. They like work. I let everybody else be ignorant with that, but that just never made sense. And then I'll say, you own your car, right? Yeah. Did you create your car? No. So that means you could rent it out if you wanted to. What if Mercedes came and said, hey, you're only paying $400 a month for your car note, but you rented it out every day for $500 bucks a day. You're making way more money than you're giving us. Can we have that car back? And you're like, no, I own it. You didn't create it. Because that's what artists say. 'Why would a label own what they didn't create?' I'm like, this is the only business that— Christopher Nolan is the best director of all time for me. Even he don't own Inception, he don't own Interstellar. Warner owns all of that. And you would never hear anybody else say, 'I should own the movies that somebody else paid for,' right? You know, so I would never understand why that is even a conversation that's entertaining. I would never understand it. They're paying for this and you get to make your money over here. And I tell you, I was like, if I was signed to Drake, Drake wouldn't even have to do nothing for me. The fact that I'm signed to OVO is the privilege, because now I get to use that brand name to go out here and go pitch.
Benefit yourself.
Yes. So like, I can see why like 50 Cent was mad at like— because he'll always say, no, I wanted our artists to be bigger than me so I could just sit back and make money. I understand that concept.
I also under the— understand the concept of when an artist signs to a bigger artist they sit back and it's almost like, yeah, wake me when I'm famous. I have a couple of clients that do that with me where it's like, oh, you're Wendy Day, I've hired you. Just hit me with your magic wand and make me famous already. And it doesn't work like that. Like, I can only employ my relationships and contacts with as hard as you work. But on top of that, if you're not doing any work and you're not growing, How does it benefit my connections to help you? Like, it doesn't benefit them. So I can ask them, but they're not going to do me a favor when there's too many other artists out here that have a buzz or growing exponentially. And I'm saying, well, gee, you like me, hook up my guy. Favor deals don't work.
Yeah. Yeah. I never under— yeah, like, I— yeah, that's one thing Cosign said about me from the interns. We were on the phone and bro was just like, One thing about Bullet, because he still calls me Bullet, but he's like, one thing about Bullet, like, he has done more with less. So imagine this. And that's what I'm trying to say.
Truly the, the one person out here that has really hustled your way into being able to build something for your family.
I appreciate that a lot. I appreciate it.
You impress the hell out of me.
That means so much to me. It really does. Um, and that's why, you know, I think, uh, I try to communicate that to other artists, like, yo, this is the job.
It is the job.
This is the job. Like, creating the music, really.
Everybody wants to make music and perform. Like, I want to do a show, I want to do a show. Okay, a show is 45 minutes on stage. Actually, it's 10 minutes on stage when you're new, but when you're established, it's 45 minutes to an hour on stage, you know, a couple times a year. If you're on tour. You know, it's not the job.
You is— why do you think so many artists have like this fake, like, like what they think this is compared to what it actually is?
Um, I have two thoughts about that, and it's funny because I've, I've soul-searched about this for the 32 years I've been doing this. Um, the first reason is because I think artists are right-brained and business people are left-brained, so they don't really think like business people. There's a handful of, of artists who, who have both sides, like you, Jay-Z, Beyoncé, Rihanna. There, there's a handful of people that can, that can do both. And I see it all the time because I see how artists that I work with think, and it makes me go, huh? So I, I, I get that it's a struggle for them. And then I think the second thing is that artists don't want to learn for the most part. They don't want to study. They don't want to figure out how this works. And this is not an industry where you can look from the outside in and figure out how it works. In fact, I'll even take it a step further and tell you how incredibly shocked I am to see multi-platinum artists that I have a conversation with not really understand publishing. Not really understand how master rights usage works, not really understand sampling. It, it, it's, it dumbfounds me that you could be a multimillionaire in this business and still not understand how to set up a tour or what that means. So I think there's a lack of understanding and a lack of interest on a lot of people's parts of not wanting to know how the different moving parts all work. And in fairness, it's not easy. It's not easy to learn. You can't really— again, you can't look from the outside in and say, oh, I see how this works. I can watch a basketball game and I can figure out exactly what the rules are over time. I can figure out how it works. What I can't figure out is the internal politics between the players and the politics between the different franchises. And how some of this stuff like, like merch works. I can't, you know, that's the side of basketball I can't figure out. But with music, I can't even figure out how the game works from watching people rap. I just see them putting out music and think I understand, but I don't.
That's true. Yeah, because the publishing conversation always interests me because as we know, you know, your publishing is pretty much worth nothing unless you're on the radio or you have a team. Placing your music in TV and film, or if you're songwriting for another artist. But even if you're songwriting for another artist, if it's not a single, it's not gonna make any money. So I never understand when people, when somebody invests, because if you're an investor, why wouldn't you own the publishing? Because you're financing the record to make it make money. So that's why I never understood when people say, "Oh, this person stole my publishing," or, "This person stole it." And I'm looking at it, they gave you money for it when it was worth nothing. And they have to go spend money to go make it worth something, why wouldn't they want to hedge their bet? Why wouldn't they want to own a piece of that? I mean, are there nice people out here? Probably is. They'll be like, I just want 25% of it, even though, you know, I mean, I don't know.
But then it's just like, if you don't take ownership of publishing, I won't touch it.
Got it.
But it, for me, it's just, I feel like for, you know, 500, 600 years, people of color have been oppressed by people that look like me taking ownership. So for me, it's a different reason that I won't take ownership. I totally understand why you would or why somebody else would take ownership.
I don't think I would take the full ownership.
But not take, but buy ownership.
I would buy. Like, I think I would buy— like, for me, I would create— I would structure it in a way where it's like, when I get my money back now, I still get like 10%, you know, just for even making it what it is.
Yeah, like maybe just split.
Yeah, the split is—
the split should change. But I also think that, you know, when artists get signed, they're usually relatively young and naive. And I've never seen a publisher or a label actually explain what a co-publishing deal is. It's sort of like they pitch them like, I'm gonna go out and get you all this money. I'm gonna go out and— and you and I both know is pub deals don't do shit. They don't pitch, they don't do the work. Well, if you're Beyoncé, they will. But for the most part, they don't.
Yeah, like there's people I didn't even realize, like, and that's what made me stick with Sinks for so long. That's my concept of what it was. When I first moved to LA, I remember some people, they had like huge records, like huge records, and I find like they got their pub deals, $15 grand. And then I'm watching all like these artists and songwriters. This one, like I said, was when I first— I'm 24 years old and I'm just watching all these people do writing camps and they're like in the studio all day, right?
Camp.
Wait a minute, I make more money than— like this, it was just a weird thing because I'm thinking like, that's what I'm supposed to do. Like, I'm supposed to be doing writing camps and doing all of these things. And I'm like, somebody I knew got a publishing deal for $20 grand. And I'm like, I just got that from a Modelo commercial, like, and without me having to give up anything, anything. And that's why I was like, yes. And that person doesn't even do music anymore. Like, so I'm just— I just kept seeing things like that for the last year. So it's like, yeah, I'm clearly doing something right now. It might take me longer to do what it is.
Okay, and it may take more work because you gotta build relationships and call music supervisors and get to know who's who and what they're looking for. I mean, that's real work.
It is. And the— but the beauty of all of this is we're in the catalog business. Like, nothing— and this is what my mom tells me, she's like, I get you get frustrated sometimes, but a lot of stuff that exists now did not exist back then. So the fact that, you know, the sync stuff and you got all these relationships with huge producers and music— yes, are you in a space if you are able to finally like close a budget, you close some capital, you know that you're in the catalog business because now they're doing the 10, 20 times multiples on revenue-generating catalogs now, which did not exist before streaming. So that goes to the other piece of how my brain works is when I watch other artists complain about 0.004%, in the same breath I'm watching companies get a billion dollars to buy the same shit that artists are complaining about. And how my brain works is I could listen to this, or I could go see what y'all are doing over here so I could go figure out that business and do it for myself.
And so for yourself.
Yeah, exactly. So I think that's, that's another conversation of, you know, just somebody is making money out here. Yes. It's just like, be the people that figure out why they're making money and you go figure out what they did and go do it. Like, that's how I look at all of this. It's like, oh, a catalog, if I made $5 million a year here for 5 years, I can get $50 million. How the fuck do I make $5 million? That's, that's it. That's the only way my brain works. I know nothing else.
I love that. Hustler.
I love that. I know, like, like, what other time has there been where somebody is like, yo, we will give you 10 times what you're making? Because then the other piece of that is, that's because one of my friends, he had a huge record, and I was about to get him a catalog situation for, for the song. But he's like, "Nah, I'mma just keep it." And I'm like, "Damn, you got this record that big by yourself without $7-8 million. What, you think you could do with $8 million?" Like, I just never under— you know, I think people take ownership, that word ownership, too literal. And I'm not sure if that's a good thing or it's a bad. Like, if somebody gave me $20 million right now, you can have these damn songs. I can, like, I did this without $20 million. I know, I know, go take $20 million, go to the bank. Get a line of credit leveraged off that $20 million, use that to sign people to publishing deals and have them create a bigger catalog. And if I have $20 million, I could go hire Timberland, like, yo Timberland, make me a song for real. Like, you know, now you got bigger people you get to go work with because now you got the capital to— now you've got hit records, and now you got more hit records that's going to get you there quicker the first time. So I like that idea.
I do too. I like that business model.
Yeah, that's where I think we're at. And then, um, just like doing like joint venture deals, like the deal I had last year that fell through, the reason why that deal was so important to me wasn't just the money, it was when I realized that most people have investors that will invest in the company, but you can get the same amount that you're asking for as an investment for one, two projects. But because it's for the album and the project and it's a joint venture situation, you still own 100% of the actual company, and that product, the project that you're getting the money for, is more like a sale, like you sold, this project to them. So now that whatever— let's say they gave you $500,000 for an album. If it goes into your business account, that means your company made $500,000. So it's not an investment. So that, that raises the value, the equity value of the actual company, because it's like, this year I made $500,000, sold that, then I did— I reinvested some of that to go do merch. And like, that's not the only money your company is going to make.
Exactly. You're able to have other streams of income. Dependent on one thing.
So if I made one sale and I'm only there for one album, what investor don't want to come in and be like, wait, you made how much this year? That's what I love. That's why that deal was so— I was so depressed it didn't go through. But sometimes, you know, sometimes people don't even know why I'm doing what I'm doing. Like, people on the team don't even know why, you know. So they're fighting for the best, you know, rights for you. It's like, fam, I just need the money. I know what I'm like. I don't care about any of that.
It's because you can flip that money and make more money. You're not seeing what you're able to do with the funding.
Exactly.
And that's, that's so right now, it's because they would sit around and do nothing and just spend that money on dumb shit. Whereas you're like, okay, I can, I can buy an apartment building over here, I can build my publishing company over here, I can put money away for my kids, I could do, you know, whatever. You're thinking bigger.
That's it.
And then I'm gonna sit there and play PlayStation and smoke weed all day.
Get head. Exactly. And my thing, like we said before, is the terms. Like, if I'm signed for 2 years, I'm cool with that. Here's the album, let's deal with that. But I'm smart enough to be like, oh, I'm taking some of that money, signing 5 other people. I'm signing 6 people. I know some music producers that don't even want to be in a deal. Hey, I'll buy you out your deal right now, bro. You're just gonna produce. And then it's like the EDM world, most of them are producers and they already have their setup already, so they can produce, you know, massive amounts of records while going DJ at festivals And that's an amazing business model to invest in. Just like, hey, I'll give you a publishing deal right now and you just make beats all day and go perform. And then the fans are going to want to listen to your stuff on Spotify. And, you know, and we'll build a brand. And that's, that's where I think this is, is what I think is going. And that, yeah, that's just where my, my thought process is. There's a reason why the sync stuff is, is worked and all this other stuff I've learned, you know, pitching from freaking big VC people. Like, you know, I was like, why am I— if none of this closes, why am I doing it? Like, what was God's reasoning for me to do it? But it's teaching me so much as, you know, as I go. And like you said, we only need one yes.
Exactly.
One yes.
Is there anything in a sync contract that somebody should look out for that shouldn't be there?
Um, I don't think so. I mean, I think it's pretty— honestly, it's pretty straightforward. Like, even some of the briefs I get, just a one-page, you know, this is the song, this is the time amount, it's either gonna be the instrumental or the whole song, this is the sync fee, it's gonna be this global right, you know, like it's usually that. So I think—
Is it exclusive or can you then take that song and do other stuff with it?
You can do other stuff with it. You can definitely, just specifically for, hey, we want the right to use this for this, you know, one show or whatever. One show, and then the easier the process, you make the process for them,, you know, the more they'll be like, oh yeah, this person was easy to work with, you know, come, let's work with them again, let's work with them again. Yeah, so that, that's usually what it is. And then, um, yeah, then I would start finding people at the company. So if you're doing something for Netflix, I'll start finding all the music people at Netflix and like kind of just getting my name known, you know, around, you know, Netflix. Um, you know, I was doing that over at, uh, uh, what do you call it, not Paramount, uh, Sony, is it? Oh, they do this— it'll come to me, it's like one of the big movie studios, yeah, Warner, like Warner, you know? And so one of the music supervisors, you know, I've done a lot of work with, you know, he emails and says, "Hey, is there a way I could maybe do a catalog or just something with?" You know, so he'll connect me with the right person, TV department, and, you know, I just build relationship with them. Now, nothing's happened yet, but, you know, we still in talks, you know? So that's the other part, like I said, of just being in a position to where something might not happen in 5 months, something might not happen in a year, some stuff might, there's people I've just finally did something with from 10 years ago. Yeah. You know, so that's the other part. It's like you said, it's like not getting frustrated and not getting upset. Things take time. And that's—
and being cool with people because I've found as I've gotten older, I want to do business with people I like and people that are cool and people that are easy and that I enjoy talking to. I'm not trying to do business with people that are challenging and frustrating.
And that's it. That's it. Like I always say, I just want to do business with friends.
It's not worth it.
Not worth it at all. Like, I just— like, even from a production standpoint where I only use like 4 people, you know, these are people I've just known, these are friends, they're people I kick it with. It's some people that like huge producers and so on now that I did— we ain't did a song together, we just kick it, we hang out, party. Yeah, you know, so like, like, that's, that's what this is. Like I said, the music part is supposed to be fun. Like, this is supposed to be fun, you know. So anybody that kind of like makes it difficult— which is why I'm trying to tell like other artists, stop the whole Y'all need to own a master, like, like, like, because somebody is investing in you, like, you want to be cool, be like, yeah, you bought these from me, here you go, I can make more of these, you know, like, like, a lot of people who can invest in music have, like, I forgot the word, uh, it's not passive income, but it's, uh, you know, they have, like, the money to do it, so I forgot what that, disposable, it's like a lot of people that can invest that, that amount of capital, they have disposable income, so it's just like, do the best that you can. Like, this is for your dream. Like, right, that's it, you know. Be kind to them, they'll still look out, you know. Even if you, you failed on the first album but you've made some progress, why wouldn't they invest in the second album or the third album? Usually the risk is always on an investor most of the time, you know. Like, you get to go find another investor if this don't work out. You can find another label if this does not work out. So I think it's always keeping that reputation of you— they did their part, you do your part. Exactly.
How do you, how do you find balance in your life? Because you're actually really well adjusted as a human being.
Um, I don't, you know, I'm a big mental health advocate these days.
Same.
You know, I'm very like, I really try to, I really try to just like, I try to tell people what it is. That's my main thing. So like I said, if I'm going through something bad, if I'm having a bad day, Instagram, hey, I share it. And I think this is— this actually leads to a deeper conversation about artificial intelligence. And the reason why— I think I just saw an article, they said one company just got $125 million. It's an AI company. It's one of the biggest funding rounds for a music company, um, where anybody can make a song. Yep. It was another— yeah, it was another press release for another AI company are making like 800,000 songs a minute or something like that. Was a minute or a day. It's crazy. Just on Music Business Worldwide. I was having this conversation with my team where I was just like, being vulnerable and fragile in music and telling your story or whatever you're going through, I think that's the only way to kind of sustain yourself and what's to come. Because AI can't replicate what the heck I'm going through.
It can't replicate emotion and And it's the story that brings people in. Like back in the day, I love that you mentioned this because like I'm passionate about that. You probably tell I set up and everything. When I discovered Nas, right, was Nomadic, right, in the '90s. And I had to like the music to then go in and find out, oh, his dad's a jazz artist. Oh, he's from Queensbridge.
Oh, okay.
His brother raps too. Like I did the research. Today it's the opposite. People don't discover your music if they don't know who you are. Now they want to know who you are and what you're about, and then they'll go check out your music. They want to hear the story, and if there's a connection, then they're gonna— oh, Adele is making music about the guy that really fucked her over. Man, I'm coming out of a bad relationship. Let me go check her out.
Bingo.
And I love that you said that because nobody talks about that.
So what I remember, like, recently, like, I tested this theory out when I did a project for Audio Network, and the project was called Nothing Lasts Forever. So I was working on this project for like 3 years. I was in a very dark space, and I was just writing like these dark-ass records that I was actually going through, like, Ramada, yeah, like, just a lot of craziness. And I was like, you know what, if this record does do what I think it's gonna do, I don't want to be talking about this for the rest of my life. Like, you know, crazy-ass girl, like, I don't want to talk about that. I'm trying to heal. Feel from it. And so I was like, but I could— how— this is my best practice. Like, how do I write records where I'm talking about what I'm going through, but like the hook is like more inspiring? Like, yeah, I went through this, but I got out of it. Here's an inspiring hook for you. Keep your hand up, you know? And the crazy thing is, that's like my most synced project because with Audio Never— like, they sync all right now. What— I haven't put out records in 5 years. I probably have like 2,000 monthly listeners on Spotify, but it's all that album.
Because they keep playing all those songs and I was like, relate, it's the connection.
That's, that's what I realized, that's what this is. So I probably got now a nominee, the one I was about to have the deal for, um, it's a, it's an all-pop Latin album. So one of my main producers produced for the Black Eyed Peas, Keith Harris. So a lot of the beats I had was going to be on the, um, the Latin album they put out, uh, the one that had like the huge Ritmo record and all that stuff with Bad Boy. It's like, so a lot of beats that I had You know, I think we're initially for them and just, you know, you start working together on those and there's a pop-up, but then the deal don't go through. So now I go through this like rough 2023, but obviously I keep pushing. I smile like vibes. And then I just start getting to a space where I was like, yo, let me write how I'm feeling. Like, let me write those. And I just start putting the lyrics out there.
Get it out.
And I'm just watching people like kind of relate to just the lyrics of what I'm talking about. It's like, oh, this is going to work. And then I was like, you know, how do I do this? Because I don't want to talk about this my whole career. I don't want to talk about like be on stage talking about these songs. Oh, I can do a prelude, and then this could show why I'm giving you these pop records. Because that's the other problem with pop is there's nothing— like, once you don't have a single, you out of here. So I was like, how do I still do the music I want to do in this pop dance world, um, where people will still take me serious? Like, oh, I'm still a rapper, I can rap my ass off. Oh, just do this project initially where it's like— it's called Anomaly, uh, The Gentleman, like where you start off as a gentleman, but I just went through all this fuck shit. So this is why I am why I am now, which is the second one, which I hope is for— and I was like, that's just gonna solve so many problems. And the only thing is, you gotta think, you just gotta be very comfortable with yourself, because I think that's why, especially in the rap genre, everybody too cool for school. Everybody, oh, look at my watch, I fucked this girl. Like, it's too cool. It could be replicated.
It's not that anymore. Yeah, and it's not that anymore. This, this generation, like, the main fans are 13 to 26. They don't give a fuck about what watch you're wearing. They don't care about how much money you have. They don't have it. Why are you flaunting it in their face? That's the attitude. They care about mental health. They care about saving the world. They care about the, the environment. That's what they care about.
And I think I've had to be broken down so much where I just like, I don't care. Like, I know I'm helping somebody and that's the only way I could make sense of when bad shit be— because there is no way in hell you would have told me my deal was not going— like, I spent a year on that. You know, you're making that happen and just negotiating. I'm paying lawyer fees. Like, it just don't make sense. And then the Hollywood strike happened right after that. The grandmother passed. Like, this is all like back to back. And I'm like, this does not make any sense. And the problem, like, when you go through things— this is why I hate that terminology, you get knocked down 9 times, back up 10, because obviously they're talking about Rocky. The part that everybody misses, yeah, he kept getting back up, but after the fight He's in a fucking wheelchair, you know, you gotta question, you know, dick probably don't work. Like, you know, it's like, but he can't be with his wife. Like, you know, people forget that part. And the whole point of that is you are not going to be the same person you are once you go through a lot of traumatic things. And I don't think that part is— it's so romanticized when they say that. And it's like, no, I'm here to tell you, no, I've been through hell. I am not the same person I was even a year, 2 years ago. I'm not the same person now. And I think a lot of people need to give them, especially artists or entrepreneurs, they need to give themselves some grace. Um, that's the main thing. Like, you healing right now. And I think, uh, you know, I did a video yesterday on TikTok about sometimes self-sabotage is a good thing for a short period of time. Because if you're dealing with things that's not in your control, usually people self-sabotage because they know what that desired result is going to be. So sometimes to keep yourself sane, you gotta just do some shit that you just know, okay, I know, but I know what the result's going to be, just so you can kind of have some sense of power back. So it's time this year I'll go off on somebody that did something stupid and pissed me off. You know, when people try to gaslight you when you react, and— but I know the desired result of that is, oh, I know I'm not talking to this person anymore. Cool. That's, that's the, that's the result. You know, you're in a relationship, uh, but it's a girl you want to take serious, but you know, like, oh, I'm a bachelor, are you living this bachelor life? You know, hey, I'm not gonna be with this person. But at least that's the result I already know compared to you, like, dating her or whatever, and then it just don't work out, you know. You're just like, yeah, just got let down again. And so I think just for like a short amount of time, it's a way to kind of trick your brain that you are still in control, and then you got to get back to normal. Like, I don't know the time frame for that, but you get back to normal.
And I always do. Yeah, I always rebalance and give myself and say, okay, enough of this bullshit, let's get back on track.
That's what I need.
Sometimes I need that mental vacation, and sometimes, quite honestly, I need the distraction.
That's the other part.
And I need a distraction to take my mind off of whatever is really stressing me out.
Exactly. And you know, for me, I love people that stick around. The ones that don't, I don't care. Like, you know, because they don't be in touch. Yeah, people know who you are. So it's just like, if you— if somebody's always smiling, I say this all the time, somebody's always smiling, you can't be like, oh, that person's the mean person too. Like, that don't make sense to me. It's like a DJ cat. We— that happened. That happened That happened with Wiz Khalifa. Remember when he was in the club and he went off on the two DJs? This is like last year, two years ago.
I don't remember.
No. Yeah, yeah. So this was like a big thing on the internet for a minute. And I'm like, Wiz Khalifa is the chillest. We ain't never heard nothing bad about Wiz Khalifa.
Nothing.
Nothing. So for him to go off means somebody did something to him. And I just thought— I would assume that.
I would assume that, yeah, they pushed him.
I'm watching all these DJs be like, yeah, we're gonna cancel Wiz Khalifa's records and all that stuff too. And I'm like, damn, I ain't heard a Wiz song in a minute. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, baby. But it's just It's like when you're a good person in today's world, as an artist, an actor, whatever, it seems like you get punished the most. And that's the main reason I have these conversations of just like, you know, have a balance. You know, most of us are selfless, 'cause to be an artist, you have to be selfless. We're communicating things that the average person cannot communicate. And that's why, like you said with Adele, like she's communicating her relationship, but a lot of people go through that. So that's why it works. And I think, to be selfless, sometimes you got to be selfish, you know, selfish with your mentality, selfish with your emotions, selfish with your vibes. And, you know, and who— whoever loves it, loves it. Whoever hates it, hates it, you know. And that's fine too. And that's fine, you know. And I, I think that's the thing, um, you know, so that's back to the artificial intelligence conversation. They can't replicate that. I agree. You know, so the more vulnerable you are in your music the more you talk about what's actually— you know, I had a bad day at Nashville. I make a song like just for practice. I call it "Bad Day at Nashville." I'm writing exactly what happened. Let's see if I can turn this into a chorus. Can I turn this into a hook? That's gonna work, 'cause it's something that happened, I wrote about it, and I'm just practicing that skill of writing, 'cause I think that's the only way to survive, you know, what's to come. I don't think— and I think that's why you see what artificial— most of the genre they replicate is rap.
Yes.
You think about it, like, I haven't heard somebody replicate Bruno Mars or like these, because you can't do it. That's a technical skill over there. But rap, you know, we've told everybody it's easy to replicate.
It's also the number one genre. So if you're really gonna— if you're really gonna make money, why not go after the top genre?
Exactly. So let me ask you that, even with it being a top genre. So do you think it's the top genre because it's the top genre, or do you think it's the top genre because it's the only genre where so many people can do or think they could do it.
I think it's the pop genre because the people that are still doing it are appealing to a broad enough audience that will tune in. Because it's not— the number of rappers on Spotify is huge, right, compared to the number of listeners that listen to rap. So I'm really talking about the fans that listen to rap. When I talk about the size of the genre. For me, it's consumption. I look at it by consumption, not by delivery.
Got it. Got it. Because I was thinking, I was thinking about like when Katy Perry had like that— I forgot that— I was like Teenage Dreams or something. I was, I was looking at the time frame of how long the album lasted. And then I looked at Bruno and I was like, Uptown Funk lasted for 2 years before he put out anything else. And I thought about how many rappers that came and went in that 2-year period, or to sustain themselves they had to do like mixtapes, features. Correct. You know what I'm saying? So I've been trying to figure out— that's the other reason I had to switch over to dancing back then, because I was noticing like, oh, to like sustain yourself as a rapper, you gotta—
it's hard because there's no classics.
Exactly.
Whereas Uptown Funk is a classic.
Exactly. And that goes back to songwriting. And I think— yeah. And I remember back, and I think Lior, you said in some video where he was saying that, um If it's not a great record, it's not a good record, or something like that. And I think if we also got back to that, like if the genre got back to that, I think—
It'd be different.
Yeah, it's just different. And I think, you know—
And it will. I think it's like a pendulum that swings.
Oh, hell yeah. Oh, hell yeah. I think this Drake and Kendrick thing, I think people, like, we heard what good records sound like again. And like, you heard, like, people were putting out songs right after that. And it was just like, no. You know, no. So I think we're getting— that's what I really want to do. Like, as I continue building Music and Raw, I wanna do more songwriting camps. I wanna, you know, like, let's like make songs. Like, we're in the record business. And even with us being in the catalog business, you need records that last, like, or it's not gonna work, you know? So it's like teaching people like how to songwrite. I remember Ebro said that too on the radio. They wanted to do that in New York where they get the Swiss Beats and these huge producers, put them with the songwriters, put them with the rappers so we can get back to making records. And because that's, you know, I love Ice Spice. I think she's— I understand what they're doing with her. But at a certain point, I really felt like, go put her with Starrah. Like, go put her with like some huge producer and songwriter. Let's go get— make some songs. She got the eyes on her. Everybody is looking at her. So it's like, why not be like, okay, now let's give her the records, you know? And that's what I just never— I never understood that. It's like, we are in the songs business. We're not in the vibe. Let's make some songs. You know, so that hopefully is communicated throughout, you know, today. I just want to see people win. That's all I've ever cared about.
It's all I've ever cared about.
I just want to see people win.
So you've been more than generous with time today. I thank you so much. Is there anything that I didn't ask you that I should have that you want to talk about?
Um, I don't think you asked everything, honestly.
Uh, This was, this was so easy for me because I genuinely had questions about sync. I, I'd really like to bring somebody on board into my company part-time to do sync for my clients, but I, I just don't know how to do that. So asking you these questions really is helping me figure it all out in my head.
The cool thing right now is to get something— that's the other reason I wanted the capital for is so many people are looking for jobs right now that work at like huge sync companies. So you can probably hire somebody, like link them, somebody's looking for a job. And that's what I really wanted to do was like, I was gonna take some of my deal money, like go to the bank and see if they can give me a line of credit against it. And I was just gonna look for like all these top sync people that are looking for a job. And I was gonna just hire at Music and Robots to just focus on our catalog only. 'Cause I'm like, yo, United Masters is gonna try to hire me, you know, to be like a— I'm not sure, it's like vice president or something like that. So I did like interviews with them. I was like, oh, that's cool, like work from home and still do what I'm doing anyway. Um, and that's what put the thought in my brain because they was like, uh, they were going to pay you like $120,000 a year or something, but you had to make like a million dollars. Oh shit, wow. Wait, what? I could just do this for myself. Like, I never— but I get it, like it's consistency. The salary is consistent. So I get that. But I was like, if somebody is making $1 million, $2 million, why would they like quit what they're doing to come work for you? I didn't get that. But it did give me the idea of like, oh, if I can find some way to like, you know, put— when I put together the next deck or whatever, and I can find some way to say, hey, this amount of capital is going to just hiring syncs, like, like 10 people, all they do is just place music all day. I was like, that is just such a good business model in the catalog world, because that's why I've been able to get the meetings, you know, with the hedge funds that buy catalogs, Harper Blackwood, or whatever, because I'm talking to them about sync stuff. So I was like, wait a minute, I could do that for myself.
Yes, you could, easily.
Yeah, let me go try to get the capital and hire the right— hire 5, 6 people, hire the right people, just hire the right people. Because I'm like, oh, we're in this— we're in a marketing, advertising, and sales business. So that's why— so, so the more companies, the, the huge companies just have salespeople. So it's like I was like, oh, I'm just supposed to hire salespeople. I get to go do what I do, go perform, go record, but I have a sales team that's actually exploiting the copyrights. And that's what a major label does. So I was like, that, that needs to be the place. And that's all I'm focused on.
I love that. That's brilliant.
Thank you.
Thank you so much for doing this. This was—
thank you for having me.
I'm so thankful that the people watching this get to hear this because You've really built a company doing this.
Yeah.
And I love it. Back when people said that you couldn't, like you did it before it was popular. And I'm so impressed.
That means a lot. And hopefully from the artists that hear it or any creatives, hopefully they just take, just pivot. Like when I was, when Bullet, I knew Bullet wasn't gonna work, be Mr. Robotic. When this ain't working, do Sync. Sync stop, go do this. Like, you know, just like, you know, you're built, you're building the whole time. I just want artists to know you are a business, and if you start operating as a business, this will work. But there are not too many things in this life where you can go get $15,000, $20,000 to go perform on a stage, where you can get $5,000 for a song, $10,000 for a song. And the other key point I want people to take from this is when you get to that space, put yourself on a salary. Like, if you want to go buy jewelry and all, cool, put it on a credit card. Like, you know, go get some points for it, you know. Like, you don't have to wait to, you you like lose all your money to understand what's going on. It's like if you go on tour, ask the promoter to just give you the cash and put your plane ticket or whatever on a credit card and get some freaking flyer miles out of it. Like, if you do this correctly, this is the best business to be in. If you do this correctly, like if you get $15,000 a show, you're doing 5 shows a month, that's what, $15,000, $30,000, that's $75,000 a month. You don't need $75,000 a month personally, my friend. Like, this is 5,000 a month is your salary. That's $60,000 a year. But your company has millions because you are saving it and you're operating as a business. If you do that, your life would just change your life.
Now you have generational wealth.
Yes. And you— if we don't get too many opportunities like that, that's real. That's the main communication point that I really want to just tell people. Just like, treat this as a business and you'll win.
I love that. Thank you so much.
Thank you.
More from Wendy
How Much Is Your Music REALLY Worth? | Jeff Ponchick x Wendy Day | No Standing Zone Ep. 19
Managing expectations is a major key to making it in this business... easier said than done!
I had a great conversation with @SamuelRiddle on the most recent episode of No Standing Zone..
Building Empires: How Sam Riddle Navigated from College Radio to Managing Megan Thee Stallion
