The Science Expert: The Fastest Way To a Happier Dog

With so many conflicting online opinions, especially when it comes to dog training methods, tools, and dare I say it, the e-collar, I thought I'd reach out to one of the best minds in the industry to finally put some arguments to bed. So with that said, in today's video, I'm joined by dog trainer, neuroscientist, and queen of dog training science, Dr. Melanie Uda. So if you feel like you're pulled pillar to post and drowning in conflicting information, you most certainly do not want to miss the next 60 minutes of absolute dog training scientific gold. Dr. Melanie Uda.

Jacob.

You've gone and got yourself a puppy. How's it going?

It's going pretty well. I think it's a very new adventure for me. There's a lot of anger involved for my puppy, not for me. Well, I guess for me too, but yeah, he's a sweetheart. He is everything that I wanted, I think. Obviously I have Michael to help me because it's from from Michael, Michael's litter, and I'm excited to go on this Mondioring journey with this little guy.

I want to ask one thing that you're making sure to implement with that puppy.

Oh, definitely working through stress. Okay. So from the limited experience I have with Malinois, but from what Michael tells me, what he sees in him, he's definitely going to be very, very forward in what he wants. He wants to bite and a lot of energy when he comes in, right? But then there are like moments where you can tell he is sensitive and like, ah, something happened that he didn't like and he panics a little bit, or there's something in the environment that he didn't expect and he panics a little bit. So there's this weird thing of like super powerful already and super committed to the bite and probably super oblivious in drive, but then also sensitive in other areas. And the way through that is through stress inoculation. You know, learning to work through stress without the panic.

Gotcha.

Because for a dog like that, panicking can mean biting.

And so I'm going to just pick on something you said there. You're teaching the dog to bite.

Yes.

Isn't that going to make him aggressive?

Well, I hope so. In drive and within, within, within the work. So I think with the aggression, what we kind of see, especially in pet dogs, is aggression is all the bad things, right? And we don't want to be, want to have a dog that is aggressive towards other people. Of course we don't want to be aggressive towards other dogs. But it is, that's the thing with violence, you know, like we treat it in dogs as if it's like such a no-go, but we love violence. We humans love violence as long as it's in a certain context. We love boxing matches.

Is that why we watch all like the murder mysteries on Netflix and stuff?

Yes, for example, right.

Gotcha.

And the adrenaline kick that comes with it, right?. And then we have dogs and we should grant them the same thing if they're— I have a proposition for that. So if they are dogs that like to bite, we should create the context where they can live it. That doesn't mean that they become aggressive towards anything else that we don't want them. It's just that they want to do it and we give them the right outlet. Just like we set up sports where we can watch two people knock each other out, but doesn't mean that they go out on the street and you know, punch other people in the face.

Gotcha. And so we want to build resilience in our puppy in order to allow them to contain themselves in stressful situations. And so they don't bite at the wrong time.

Right. That they don't default to like a behaviour that does not align with how we want to construct society. And for a dog that, you know, wants to bite, this might be a default behaviour or might become a default behaviour. For other dogs, it might just be running away when they're stressed. We don't want that either, right? So creating resilience in terms of like, you can work through stress if you don't like it, so you don't kind of default to a behaviour that I don't like. That's why we set that up.

And so we want to communicate to our dog or teach our dog that they don't need to be aggressive in certain situations, right? And make them resilient. At what point do we say you're not allowed to be aggressive? Do they come hand in hand? Should we pick one? Should we pick both?

It depends on where the dog is at. You know, and what the context of the dog's living situation is. And certainly a dog can be told not to be aggressive, right? So a dog can be perfectly happy not being aggressive. You will have to construct a lifestyle that allows for outlets and like aggression always comes with high arousal, right? So like there has to be an outlet for the arousal per se.. It doesn't have to be aggression, right? And if this is something that doesn't align with, for example, the handler or whatever, then we can tell a dog not to be aggressive for sure, or work towards this in terms of how we set up training in general, not to get there in the first place. But in, in sports, in certain sports, obviously we kind of foster that. And then in other areas you're like, nope, that's not for you, but do this instead.

And just to pick on something you said, is it true that arousal can become addictive to certain dogs?

Yes, it— well, yes, arousal, the way I think about arousal is adrenaline. So it's the activation of everything that keeps you going. And that adrenaline kick can induce a pretty addictive feeling in some dogs. They like to be aggressive or aroused that way. Some dogs that are reactive, they like to be reactive, not because they want to kill something or someone, just because they like being like super hyper, right?

Gotcha.

And that comes then with dopamine and other processes in the brain. But yeah, sometimes they're just wired like this and they need it. And other dogs are couch potatoes.

Gotcha. And I hear a lot of dog trainers talking about dopamine. What's dopamine?

Well, where should I start? So dopamine is such a big buzzword, or has become such a buzzword, which is good. People get more interested in how it's related to pursuing a reward and how it's related to reinforcement learning. It's kind of like the molecule for that. At the beginning, we always thought dopamine is the molecule that makes you enjoy something that you like. Pizza. Do you like pizza?

Yeah.

Mexican food, a taco.

I, I, yeah, I've enjoyed my fair share of Mexican food since being here. Yeah.

So first we thought, by we I mean scientists thought, okay, like dopamine is increased in the brain when we have something that we like. It turns out it's not really what this is all about with the whole dopamine thing. What it is about is there's the anticipation that makes you go through work, that you put in effort in order to achieve it. So you can have, you know, your tacos or Mexican food that is like put right in front of you, or you have to drive 15 minutes down the street and find the taco truck that is only open at certain hours. So you have to plan and you have to hop into the car and dopamine makes you do all these things.

Gotcha.

Without it, you might not want to do it. And that's so that's why dopamine is kind of like an indication of how motivated a dog, for example, is to do the work. In order to get the reward, in order to get the bite, in order to get the treat. And you're working for that level of mindset, the motivation, because that allows us to train anything we want.

Gotcha. It's not a hormone though, right?

Oh no, it's a neurotransmitter. So it's being produced in the brain, certain areas in the brain, and then certain other areas that kind of, you know, absorb more or less that dopamine. And it's all kind of happening in the brain.

Gotcha. And some people I hear call it the happiness hormone, but it sounds— it sounds like it's more like the motivate her to pursue as opposed to achieve. Is that right?

Yes. Max, what you get?

I've got a dog and he wants to get a treat. Okay. And we've got like a timeframe here. And when does the dopamine come in? Is it like highest at the treat over here or is it in the pursuit of the treat over here? Talk to me.

So, okay, let's draw. So something happens between where the dog is here and to the treat here. And let's say the dog sees you. These are the dog's eyes.

Okay.

And the dog sees the treat in your hand or smells the treat in your hand. Let's say either. And in that moment, dopamine that is being produced in certain neurons in the brain will increase because now the dog is like, "Ooh, tell me what to do. I want that treat." And that increase will now initiate other processes in the brain saying, "Whatever your owner says, do it. Don't question it." Right? And once that action's happening, right? And this, let's say this is also not just the timeline, but also the dog now making his or her way closer to the treat, then the dog has the treat, and then there are like some things that can happen. One is like, yep, that's exactly what I expected. Okay. Or maybe it thought you took a— you have your hand and it still smelled like the sausage that you had before, but now it's just kibble and you give kibble. Well, then it is like way less, then dog is like, what the heck was that? Or instead of the kibble, now it's steak, it goes even higher.

Gotcha.

So what really, really matters here is like whatever the dog expected, the expectation and reality.

Gotcha.

And that gap matters and tells us everything about how motivated a dog is, or the dog just walks off and is like, I'm not training with you anymore because you tricked the dog, you violated the dog's expectation, or the dog learned to get something real great that the dog didn't expect. It's the beauty of novelty.

Gotcha.

And surprise. And that's where you can drive either behaviours that are very hard to do, high effort in sports, focused heeling or staying in the heel when there are distractions, right? And you want to have it like a nice surprise.

Well, a lot of anticipation. Yeah. And could we call these prediction errors?

Yes. So the prediction error happens between this and this. So that, like, let's do this. This would be a positive prediction error because it's higher than expected.

Gotcha.

That would be no prediction error. And it is still prediction, right? I predicted I get something and got exactly what I got.

Gotcha.

It doesn't drive new learning as much because there is no, hey, I'm still going to go for the treat, but there is no need for me to change anything. And that would be the negative prediction error.

Gotcha. And if we get a positive prediction error and the dog gets something better than it anticipated, what happens to the behaviour next time?

So that depends on the dog, but let's just say on average there's learning, right? Like the brain is like, hey, this was really cool, but is it really real, right? So the next time you have probably a very similar scenario as I am expecting a certain treat, oh, I get something better. Again, right? It's like, okay, now the problem is when you keep doing the same high-value treat.

Mm-hmm.

Well, then the expectation changes. Now the dog wants to always have that. So now we have a higher expectation from the beginning.

Yeah.

And that super high-value treat that gave you a positive prediction error at the beginning is now, well, I expected that.

Gotcha.

It's a problem with reinforcement only, right? You're gonna hit the ceiling. You're never gonna be able to always surprise your dog.

And does that then become kind of like the new baseline?

That becomes almost a new baseline or just it doesn't stay up high. That kind of just goes lower then. Gotcha. It still kind of ends up being here. Dopamine is never as high as it is the first time something really great happens because the brain always has to be ready for something new. So it has to kind of save the high spots. So it will kind of then lower just everything else. And now your steak becomes kibble.

So of course, then people will go on a never-ending journey to find the smelliest, newest treat. That's obviously the next steps, right?

It is the next step. It's impossible. Or they start to give more and more and more, which can also be a positive surprise. Oh, I got like a handful, right? But then you end up with a fat dog because you kind of hit the ceiling there too. Or the steak cannot be any juicier at some point.

Gotcha.

And then you get a dog who has high expectations or like nothing is good enough. But the more important point is because we end up being down here even with a steak, and like at the beginning I just said this is a measure of how much effort the dog is willing to put into work with you, and if this is somewhat mediocre, then you get mediocre work with your dog. If you work on behavior modification, it's going to be hard. If you have high ambitions with the sport, it's going to be hard. So you want to keep that kind of fresh.

Hey everyone, just a very quick one from me. If you didn't know, the reason I was at Michael Ellis's school is I was delivering a business development and marketing seminar for dog trainers and canine professionals. Now I've summarized that seminar and put it into a webinar, which we are giving out completely for free. And if you want access to that webinar and learn how to double, triple the size of your business in, in just a couple of months, then click the link in the description and, uh, yeah, we'll send it right over. Thank you so much. Uh, enjoy the rest of the video. Gotcha. So it's like when you get the new shiny car and you drive it around for a little bit and you want the— and you see the Lamborghini pass by and you want that car instead.

Exactly.

And so we're, we're essentially putting our dog on the hedonic treadmill, right?

Mhm.

And, uh, we're getting into a little bit of a trap. And so if we want to try and fix this and we want a dog to be motivated with positive reinforcement, What can we do?

So the name of the game is you always kind of want to surprise your dog. Okay. And not always. When you want to maintain a behavior, you don't need to level up, right? If the dog learned something gets reinforced, stay at like something that is rewarding for the dog. And at some point you can surprise the dog by being going into, for example, variable reinforcement. The dog expects a kibble, right? And then maybe it gets nothing. Well, that's a negative prediction error. But based on the history, hey, I got a kibble every single time before, the dog will not quit right away. That's just the history of training, right? So the dog is then, what happened? Let me try again a little bit harder. A little bit of frustration is not bad. So the next time you kind of give a kibble and it's like, oh, now I've been positively surprised again, right? A little bit. I got a kibble again. So you can go into verbal reinforcement and then eventually you will get into habits.

Yeah.

Where you don't necessarily need to reinforce anymore. Gotcha. If your dog performs something very reliably and even though it's not the highest motivation, you might not need it anymore. The dog sits every now and then, you can reward as like a little surprise, but you don't have to be on it. And it's really hard. And I, I, I was like that to my first dog, you know, like my pet dog. I mean, go on a walk and traffic light hits red and we have to wait. I'm like, always sit, sit, sit. And every single time he would put his butt on the ground, I would give a treat. And it was so fucking hard for me to fade that out because he deserves it. He did a good job and he should know that he did a good job, but he wasn't even thinking anymore. He just like, we stop, he sits, right? Every now and then he can get one, but he doesn't need it anymore.

And is there anything in, in the scientific literature that indicates the amount of repetitions we need to create habituation?

I don't think there's a specific number. You want to be not too late so that the dog doesn't have a habit of expecting always the same thing, right? You want to kind of create it when, when the mechanisms are still flexible enough for behaviour to be moulded. Once it's becoming a habit and you still want to add some new experiences through variable reinforcement, it gets hard to change, right? And you don't want to be too early because if you're too early, then you kind of— because we are playing with a negative prediction error and free shaping is also playing with negative prediction error, expect something, doesn't get it, then the dog might quit.

Gotcha.

So it's kind of like as a trainer, you kind of want to pay attention to how your dog feels and where you're at. In your training. I think most people, including me, probably start a little bit too late. You can probably start a little bit earlier than you think, given the history of training.

Gotcha. Okay. And I guess my next question would be, is there any place for maybe the intentional application of compulsion or aversives in order to manipulate this baseline?

Yes. So what you really want to do, I think this is the best place for a dog's brain and mind to be, is again, the brain likes making predictions.

Gotcha.

That's the brain's two main tasks, is maintain the body function so you stay alive and make the right predictions.

Gotcha.

But keeping it interesting, as in like anything can happen, helps the dog to see a bigger picture of, you know, the context of his or her world. So let's say the dog expects— getting nothing is also an expectation, right? And dopamine does play a role there too. But then let's say you do negative reinforcement or you say no, right? Which is, you know, you don't get a treat, kind of negative punishment or even positive punishment. In most cases when a dog experiences the first time for counter surfing, didn't expect that, right? Probably expected a chicken on the counter. Even higher, gets corrected for it. What happens is now dopamine isn't just a little bit less, it actually goes below baseline. This is the baseline.

Gotcha.

And that's a huge signal to the brain that's telling, holy fucking cow, this totally went south. What happened? What got me in that situation? And that process here, when it goes like below zero, let's say, kind of initiates a lot of other processes. If for some dogs they're a little panicky, they go into a fight or flight potentially. If you kind of were too surprising with the corrections, or if they're still staying thoughtful enough, they will like process what got them into that situation. Then you can kind of mold the behavior and like, well, that's exactly what got you into situation. Pause on the counter. 'Never do that again.' And it's like, 'Okay, well, that sucked. I don't like that. I will never do it again.' And that way dopamine also— dopamine isn't just the motivation to pursue a treat, it's the motivation also to avoid discomfort. The dynamics just go in the opposite direction. So dopamine is incredibly important to help the dog make sense of its environment, put everything into context. This is what I can do, this is what I cannot do, and my brain is predicting That got me in that situation before. This got me in that situation before. That's what I wanna do, and that's what I'm gonna avoid. Gotcha.

And so if we want to have a heavy focus on positive reinforcement, it's super important that we use a variable reward schedule to create intentional prediction error. Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

To create a little bit of frustration to get the dog to try harder next time. Can that just carry us the whole 9 yards in training our dog to do things?

You're still going to run into the same issue because eventually if you're still just using the same thing or if you're just having the same verbal reinforcement as like every other time, there is still a lack of understanding. And this is less about the dopamine itself, but there's still a lack of understanding for the dog what not to do. And that part is important. If you always just go with positive reinforcement, even if it's variable reinforcement schedule where you create some prediction error, We're still just playing with the dog's what to do.

Gotcha.

Still, well, change your behavior via reinforcement, it's kind of like, okay, try harder. So sure, the dog kind of tries harder and does something towards that goal, but there's still this element missing of really avoiding, right? The avoidance of behavior. And that completes an understanding for the dog because then it's more focused on what to do. It's kind of like too many options, not good. Too many options gets us to anxiety, right?

Yeah.

But having very specific options that you reinforce while eliminating other options, that will kind of create some agency and some clarity for every dog. Any dog.

Is that why in the past I've seen many dogs that have been free-shaped a lot into behaviors often symptomatic of anxiety?

Yeah, because free shaping is in the same way. You kind of, it's like, hey, I came near that touchpad and got a treat. And it's like, oh, it's a surprise. And then I go near the touchpad again but don't get a treat. Well, that's like negative prediction error. So you kind of free shape and kind of hover over these small little prediction errors until the dog figures out what to do. But there is still— Okay, let's try this. Let's try this. Let's try this. It's still kind of having all the options and a dog that is very hinder-focused and is not open to trying new things, free shaping can really free them up a little bit, be creative about it. But a dog that is very anxious and it's like, I'm creative, but I was like, oh my God, I can't handle myself because it's this and this and this. And I'm like busy with this object. I heard something in the kitchen and I walk over there. That's not good either, right? So there, limiting option can sometimes help get the dog a little bit more focused. And for dogs that are too focused and don't try anything but meet your cue, then it can help to be more free shaping in that space, at least.

And, and so far we've talked a lot about getting dogs to do things, right? But of course we know there's a time and a place for inactivity. How do we teach inactivity with just reinforcement?

Inactivity, for example. Stillness, doing nothing, staying on a place bed.

Passive. Yeah.

So it depends a little bit on the dog. I think with the reinforcement, creating anticipation— if you have a dog that is really crazy for food and you want the dog to do nothing, I can teach the dog with food to stay on your place bed, and you will have this wired but still dog staying on the place bed. But what happens is you still have like, "Mmm," you have this dopamine, this like, "Give me the treat, give me the treat." We need to understand that doing nothing doesn't mean waiting for reward all the time. It becomes a very operant obedient behavior. It's not the same as being truly okay and content.

Gotcha.

Contentment means I'm good with what I have right now.

Yeah.

And I'm fine.

Yeah.

Anticipating the reward is not content. It's an outward behavior. It's like I'm working to get something even though I'm still, right? So doing nothing means doing nothing. And that sometimes means don't expect anything. And that means limiting options. And that sometimes means, you know, put a leash on the dog, restraint, restraint, crate time with nothing in there, whatever it is. Some dogs have a really hard time doing that because they constantly interact, they constantly give them something. They don't know who they are without that mindset of, um, pursuing something.

Gotcha.

It's very important for them to settle that way without expecting.

And I see a lot of my clients come to me having taught their dog to settle in place through reinforcement. And as you mentioned, then we see the dog in a, in an almost like a chronic state of anticipation. What happens to our dog when they spend a lot of the day in anticipation because of they've been positively reinforced to do action and inaction. And therefore I presume they're staying up here quite a lot for a majority of the day, no?

Well, it's everything can become like they're trying to figure out constantly what's happening. Like what is the next cue to get me this? How do I get? And you see these dogs that constantly start frustrating me, then barking for attention. It's like, give me something, give me something, give me something. You haven't given me something in 10 minutes. Like give me something else.

Gotcha.

And because they don't know how to not expect something and they don't understand that. They don't understand the difference between, oh, now I want you to hang out, but the other 23 hours when I'm awake, I'm kind of making you do things or randomly toss treats your way. And they don't understand the difference. So they're helpless in that way. We create conflict in their brains. They're so conflicted because they don't know, should I be doing something? Did I miss something? Out on like a cue. Should I try something? Maybe the dog was free-shaped a lot. What about this? What about that? Yeah. And then they don't get rewarded for it. On top of it, then probably the owners get frustrated too. And it's like, but this is how we interact. And now you create this conflict and it has not so great consequences for the dog's, you know, mindset and the relationship and all that. So it creates a lot of like constantly having to reward behavior. Not knowing how to settle because there is no indication of how to differentiate the states, and definitely not knowing what not to do kind of keeps them in the space of constantly pursuing them, having variety, for example.

Gotcha. And so I think we kind of established that, you know, eventually if we're only using reinforcement to train our dog, we're going to hit a ceiling. Is that what you're saying? And so we might add in some pressure to bring the dogs like to create equilibrium, I guess. And further to that, to be able to create true inactivity, we might use some sort of restraint. And in some instances that might be against the dog's consent, right? And so we are limited in just using reinforcement. And so we might be left with applying some pressure on the dog. But the scientific consensus says that aversives are going to ruin our relationship.

Sure.

So now what do we do?

Now we are bad dog owners and no one should have dogs. No, obviously that's not what science says.

You're joking.

Yes, it's a joke. It's totally what science says. That's not what science says. The idea of, well, having a perfect study that proves anything in terms of the welfare— we're talking about the welfare of dogs, right? And measuring welfare of dogs has not been well established in these dog training publications, which is one indication of like how well does the dog actually live, not just in that moment of a training session, but 2 months out, a year out. Because, and I think that's the biggest problem that people kind of hold on to, in that moment, if you use aversive control to tell the dog not to do something, the dog probably is a little bit stressed.

Yeah.

That's the point. That's not what we should shy away from. That's not what the problem is. And it never has been. We all experience things that we don't like. It's what comes after.

Yeah.

And potentially what happened before. Is it clear to the dog? Is it predictable? Is it controllable? That indicate whether or not there is consequences for the welfare. But these dog training publications that specifically compare any kind of balance training and force-free training, they kind of get hung up on how the dog feels in the moment. And a dog wanting to go for a treat versus getting a tactile input through an e-collar obviously feels very different. But we know that doesn't mean anything in the moment. What matters is how the dog cognitively can process that input. And there are no good measurements for that in those studies. Because people who have conducted those studies didn't have the right hypothesis to, to set up in a way that makes sense. So we're drawing the wrong conclusions from this setup.

Gotcha. And so you're saying there's no scientific studies that measure the long-lasting effects? We're talking 3, 6, 12 months effects of using aversive control to perhaps I don't know, create avoidance around livestock or anything like that?

Yes, there are some that have basically looked for the input of an e-collar correction to avoid chasing livestock or going after livestock. Yeah, the predatory behaviour mainly, because that's a very clear "don't do that" kind of behaviour that we tend to want to correct. If I remember correctly, one study was checking out how they're doing 12 months after or something. A year, 2 years after, and they would still reliably not chase, I think it was sheep or livestock. And I believe that they say, was said that the dogs seemed fine, meaning they didn't, I don't know what they were expecting also to like cowering in the corner the entire day. I don't think this is ever gonna happen. So they seemed happy and they weren't chasing anything. 12 months after they had set up the training to correct the dog with a e-collar when chasing. And then one of the newer studies, one that the working group of Dr. Clive Wynne, they in a similar fashion with Ivan Balabanov, set up the correction when chasing a toy, a fake toy, that, you know, as soon as they made contact or as soon as they were going after, they would either get corrected or tried with food. Now, that created a huge tantrum in many circles.

It indeed.

And the— what is ironic, the biggest criticism from the force-free community was, well, this is not how we set up positive reinforcement, sophisticated reinforcement training for that. Even though the balanced community would have said the same thing the entire 20 years, like, this is not how we train dogs with balance either, but that was not accepted. But somehow this was a valid criticism. But also here, so the dogs were— and I talked to Ivan one-on-one about the study. They didn't particularly put this in the study itself, but he said like, yes, they yelped. We all know they yelped. Everyone got upset. Same thing here. That's not what matters. Probably was painful. It's not what matters. What matters is what did they do after, the day after? And he was saying they figured out don't chase that. And he said some of them, they were, you know, grabbing a stick and brought it to him and tried to, you know, interact or find some fun with the interaction and the stick with him. Others would just walk around, lie down. So there was no indication of them suffering and being in complete shutdown or anything. And that kind of carried through the entire experiment. And then they measured cortisol. They didn't see any spikes massively in cortisol. They didn't see any differences between any groups in cortisol. So there's no indication that the welfare was compromised significantly through that training. But the dogs yelped.

Gotcha.

So everyone thinks that's horrible and it's not needed. But again, it's not the point because it's a very clear indication of just don't do that.

Gotcha. I would say your dog's going to do— make many mistakes in their life, right? And we want to proactively teach how to avoid those mistakes in a controlled fashion. And if that includes some discomfort compliance or pain compliance, and we'll say it as it is, that might avoid genuine harm and a trip to the vet later on down the line, right? Trying to jump over a fence with barbed wire on, running up to the wrong dog, getting headbutted by a sheep, biting a sheep, eating a sheep, and then getting shot by a farmer. And so to your point, of course, it's going to be very difficult to measure the acute response of a dog to an e-collar and paying compliance versus 6 months down the line, a life of freedom. And so what I'd really like to know if there's anything in the scientific literature that documents the effects of excessive confinement to our dogs, because it doesn't feel right to me to keep my dog bound to a lead for the rest of his days.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's—

redrawn? Yeah.

Yes. So it would be probably unethical, at least I don't, I'm not aware of any studies specifically with dogs, probably would be unethical, at least nowadays, to put them in like a sense of confinement. But we can draw insights from other animal studies. And there are two things that we want to consider. So for one, what happens if a dog is confined and what it actually means, or an animal confined, and I can go into the extreme case of for example, a dog gets picked up by animal control and is in quarantine. That's obviously not what we're talking about, but it's kind of to make a point. And the other one that is a little bit more interesting is, let's say we have 3 scenarios. And one, that's a cage, and there is— how do I draw a rat?

That's more of a cat.

Okay, yeah. How can I make it as a— yeah, whatever. Yeah, so that's a rat and that's the cage and the cage is super empty and nothing happens there. Kind of like a living room and a dog. And even a yard.

Okay.

Be it a dog yard where the dog never comes out. People are like, oh, my dog has, you know, this 5 1,000 square feet. It's like, it's always the same. It's kind of like a cage, just a little bit bigger, right? Nothing happens. No novelty, no surprise, no, no newness to their sensory modalities.

Gotcha.

Then the second option is same thing.

Another rat.

Another rat. But this time they have stuff. By stuff, I'm just going to do this. And they have a wheel. Where they can run. Yeah. And then they have like a little thing they can climb onto, all kinds of things. And they have brothers and sisters and, you know, there's like, let's just say there's some toys in the yard and enrichment. Enrichment.

Buzzword. Yes.

And other dogs in the household. They hang out. Yeah. Like, okay, cool.

Shit to do.

Shit to do.

Cool.

Actually. And then the third one is Gets better and better. The third one is a rat. Let's say this is the tunnel, right? In nature.

Okay, he's free.

Free, born in freedom.

Gotcha.

And the study itself was comparing these two scenarios. This is from a separate study, but the idea still was how healthy is the brain? And maybe not too surprising if— let's just see here. It's not a hand.

I hope not.

That is a neuron.

Okay.

A brain cell. And I'm going to make you draw. Brilliant. So the more of these little— like, see this as like a star here, right? And these are like fingers. And the more this is and this is, the healthier the brain, because that means there are lots of connections and a lot of signals happening, lots of dopamine. So if you had to— so what they did is they would take the brain of these rats and then look into how many these fingers and stars does the brain have.

Gotcha.

If you have—

Kind of like how developed the brain is.

Correct. So if you have to draw the neuron for this scenario, how— what do you think happens?

So there's the middle bit and we might have like 1, 2, 3 maybe, and then maybe like another 3 there. That's my best guess for that one.

Very good. Now, in comparison— This one? To this.

The enriched dog. I'm going to go for like a few more over here and then like a few more fingery things here.

Yes. Wonderful.

Okay.

Yeah, that's exactly what they found. Like they were, they had some level of enrichment, right? And there are lots of things that happening. So the brain was much more healthier, the brain was more developed and like they were just, this is a good indication of They're just good, healthy, right? Now this one.

Okay. So I'm thinking probably twice as much as that one. One more there, one more there, and then that there. And then he's got loads of fingers going on.

Something like that. That is correct. So what basically the take-home message here is, again, this wasn't a study where this was included, but again, they still wanted to know, you know, how does the normal does a normal brain of a rat that lives in nature and does its thing look like? Do these rats in nature have toys and wheels?

No.

No. Do they necessarily have constantly interaction in, like, a cage with their brothers and sisters? No. Are they at risk of getting eaten?

Yes.

Yes. And why the heck do they still have a better brain, right? This is the force-free community with all its enrichment. This is balanced, basically. And what happens? Two things. Obviously going through moments of stress is like, shit, there's a cat and I have to run. Resilience. What do we know about resilience? It kind of keeps the brain healthy and strong. It's like, you know, going to the gym for the brain. But also even more so is the movement, is the freedom to move, the agency to, you know, take a risk and discover a new tunnel or get surprised by a beagle that was hiding there and like, ready to eat you. It's the ability to explore, right? And it's all about movement. It's all about the ability to just expand your horizon.

Dogs, I feel, are really curious. And I think it's something people often neglect about their dog is the— I sometimes refer to it as their curiosity drive to go and explore and check out new things and check out that hole and check around behind that tree and check at that river, and so on and so forth. And I see it all the time with my dogs. They're just little Dora the Explorers. And I'd hate to take that away from them.

Yes.

But why is it important my dog's brain looks like that and not like that? Like, why can't I just have a stupid dog?

You can. There are a lot. That just means that, you know, cells, brain cells, they can die. So for one, your dog might not get that old.

Okay.

And we all want our dogs to live forever and we never have enough time. It also means they might forget even who you are at some point. Canine dementia is a thing. Gotcha. You don't recognize it, but if a dog gets startled in the morning when you walk by and for a second barks at you, it's like, wait a second, that's me. It's because the dog for a second didn't know who you are.

Gotcha.

But also diseases, anxiety. All these mental issues that we see, comorbidities, morbidities in general, is because of something is not functioning well in the brain, whether the dog is actually, you know, anxious because resilience mechanisms don't get a chance ever to become stronger or is actually not motivated to explore more and not being creative or not exploring, kind of the brain cells die and then that means that the dog is not as healthy anymore, and that has an impact on physical health. All these things are so connected that ultimately all the, all the issues we tend to have with our dogs can be sometimes not fixed, but at least as like a lifestyle aspect, um, started with giving your dog options to be a dog at certain times, which means don't be so confined and just go the same walk and just have the yard because we can't fix reactivity or anxiety, for example.

Gotcha. And presumably this dog is easier to train than that dog.

Yes. Yes.

They're more receptive, malleable.

Neuroplasticity is the name of the game, right? In order for things to learn, you need these brain cells to connect with each other, right? Maybe not the stupid ones, but you want them to connect. And in order for that to happen, they need to be wanting to do it. It's literally them saying, hey, let's connect, let's build new connections. And the lazy dog, there is just not much going on. So you need a little bit of arousal, you need creativity, you need willingness to work with you. And you get this with these kind of brain cells because they're ready and then they are susceptible to new behaviors.

Primed.

Primed, correct.

And so you were saying that freedom is the ultimate enrichment.

Yes. Freedom. I mean, you could say I don't put my dog on a long leash in New York City, in Manhattan. Might be a little bit too much, but what I like to say here, and that's my criticism with the buzzword enrichment and PetSmart enrichment, is you want to tickle all the sensory modalities of a dog, which means give your dog something new to smell, to touch, to see, to feel, you know, all the things, to taste even. Let the dog taste some dirt.

Gotcha.

Yeah. Versus just, here's a puzzle and here's another puzzle and here's a squeaky toy or like a thing where you pull out 5 different things.

Because these options are ultimately finite, right? They're gonna run out.

They're finite and they're all kind of the same. Yeah. The dog is not that stupid. It's all the same.

Gotcha. Okay, brilliant. So we wanna allow our dog to interact with the world. Mm-hmm. But to do that, we need to ensure that they're gonna come back when they're cold or maybe avoid certain dangers, right?

Right.

Can I rub this?

Yes.

Okay, we've established that, you know, giving our dog lots of controlled freedom and the ability to interact with new and novel stimuli, super important. Okay, so I want to ideally get my dog off leash, because you can do that to no ends when he's free. And so why can't I just do that with positive reinforcement?

Because it's— the same concept there. You will always— the world is your dog's oyster, and that means there will at some point be something, and you are never going to be able to compete with everything because you are you. Your dog knows you well. Your dog smells from the very beginning what kind of treats you have. Your dog knows very well if you have, you know, the long leash on or not. And then there there's a little rabbit peeking around the corner that your dog has never seen. Like, try your best, you can throw yourself on the ground, you can scream and run away, and the dog might blink at you. But with that level of novelty, especially what the world has to offer, like I said at the beginning, dopamine basically saves itself for such moments.

Gotcha.

And it literally feeds everything the dog Being is about chasing, hunting, predatory drive. Whatever you have in your pocket, the best toy in the world will never compete with something that is so natural. And that's okay. You shouldn't aspire to. You don't need to. The dog is perfectly fine or capable to understand, yes, I want this, but my owner that I value— and you're going to drive into the pack drive of it. And like, I don't like the word, but I'm going to say it anyways, the hierarchy. It's not about dominance, but you establishing yourself that you can tell your dog no. That's what you're driving into. And that's what the dog is perfectly fine to accept. The dog is not perfectly fine to accept is not chasing your ball that you throw or chasing the ball that you throw as opposed to chasing the bunny that is teasing him around the bush, right? That's not an equation that the dog is willing to accept. What the dog is willing to accept is like, hey, we have an established relationship, I trust you. When you say no, I also know you mean it. I'll let go of that. Let's keep moving. And that's kind of like the natural instinct that you want to basically tap into.

And so are you saying that we can't substitute our dogs Predatory instincts, Melanie?

We can help it.

Okay.

Let's say that. It is still going to be, don't do this, but here's something that you can commit to. It's not— you can't— can you draw a rabbit? Yeah. It's just going to be another cat otherwise. Ooh.

He's got teeth. I like him. Okay. And then like a—

Not in drags.

Like a— he's got a big rabbit leg and a little fluffy tail. And it's a rabbit on fentanyl, but it's a rabbit. Ah, just fucking— That's not too bad.

It is very scary. But okay.

We might have to put a fucking parental advisory on this one. It's like Donnie Darko.

Okay. And let's say here's your tennis ball.

Okay. My dog loves a tennis ball, by the way.

Oh yeah?

Yeah. He also likes rabbits.

Okay. So now when we talk about, you know, replacement of predatory drive, right? What we assume is like, well, I'm just going to tell my— you want to draw a dog?

I usually just write D. Okay.

D plus owner. Yeah.

Yeah.

Let's do that. So the dog is here in the middle and I'm like, okay, you just want your dog to go, let me go, this one, dog wants this and we're replacing that drive by saying, just do this instead, go over there. I was like, that ain't happening. That might happen to a certain extent. And I know there are going to be people who are like, I've done it many times. Question one, how long did it take you and how interesting was the actual interaction?

They really want that over there, right?

And sure, with some dogs that might work, like try it out.

Sure. Right.

It's not the point. The point is there will be a time when the rabbit, the squirrel, the whatever, deer, whatever it is, right? The car, whatever it is, is more interesting. And it's a fluid system. It depends on the dog. So you can still replace that. But first you got to say, you say no to that.

Maybe block the avenue.

Block the avenue.

How's that going?

Wait, hang on.

Whoa. Big cross there. Gotcha.

And then you're like, and then you are the one who is like pointing to that one, right? Now your dog is like, don't do this, do this. That's an equation we can talk about. And that's relying on your relationship that you have with your dog, right? It is not, "Oh, you're going after the bunny. Oh, here's the ball instead," right? And again, it might work for some dogs, but for a lot of dogs it will not work and that system will fail at some point. So why take the risk? Because if the dog finally gets to the bunny, then all bets are off that the dog has any idea where you are or that ball or whatever you have. So much safer. And ultimately we do that in order to be safe. So then be safe and set up a system that is safe. So we're going to block that avenue. We can say, here's the other thing. And of course, you have to tell the dog beforehand, these are the options that will come with me, and it's always going to be more or less available for the training aspect. But you gotta block that first.

And, and for the sake of transparency, I think we need to be open and honest, and, and that step often requires some pain or discomfort.

Yes.

Compliance.

Yes, it does.

Whilst momentarily it might not be fun for the dog. No. Again, to— so it's a means to meet an end to enable that dog to be the sea rat, the dog that is free. He's enabled to go and explore and experience these novel sensations that are everywhere in his environment to increase the neuroplasticity of his brain, make him happier, healthier, live for longer.

Yes.

Remember more, easier trained.

Yes.

Sounds like a no-brainer to me, Melanie. Seems all very logical.

It does seem all very logical. But people get so hung up, let's say we use the e-collar here or whatever, right?

Yeah.

But so get hung up because it can be painful. And that's even questionable. So here's the thing about pain, right? For a lot of dogs, and my girl, she is like that, she's very dramatic, very dramatic. And she, when she feels an importance, doesn't have to be the e-collar, is just like maybe even a tap and clipping the nail and she screams. She's just like that input in that moment is just not because it's that painful, but it's like surprisingly what, like negative prediction error, right? Just like as a surprise per se and she will scream, right? If you have to use a high level, which you probably might have to do for a very strong driven dog going after the bunny, yes, there might be some pain involved. But it's the same thing here. For one, we know that they can feel pain, but we don't know how pain feels like. It's a sensation that is highly subjective. The biggest problem doctors have is like, on a scale of 1 to 10, how painful is that for you? And the person says 7, like a slight headache. And the doctor would probably, if he had the same headache, he might say 3. So it's like very subjective. We can't even communicate this properly between two people. How on earth are we going to know how they actually feel it. And we base it off of them yelping or screaming. But if I get surprised, if I walk out the door and someone stands behind the door, I'm screaming. I'm not in pain. That's the point that we kind of conflate all these emotions. We don't know. We know it is uncomfortable. It's also the point. But we also know that they can recover from that. And that this framework, seeing the bigger picture, is much more important as to how they live a life after. And the idea also is to not having to repeat that anyways constantly. Eventually they should know if you have your no word or whatever, not to go after. And my girl, she's a very neurotic dog and she's like run first, think later kind of dog. But I can take her on, not necessarily off leash, but I have on a on a long flexi, right? It's like, oh my God, flexi and prong collar. But she sees a rabbit, I see a rabbit, I say, no, there's no e-collar at this point anymore. She's like, okay. She still looks after him just to make sure I don't change my mind, right? But then she like, we continue going and she then will start exploring everything else. And I love that for her. And I would not get there anywhere without that. That element to get to this element.

And it results in a very different life for your dog.

And a different mindset for the dog too. It's like, I don't know how people underestimate how significant it is for a dog to know what not to do. Because it is not a betrayal of the relationship, if anything, it strengthens it, if you do it right. Of course, you can mess that up. But for a dog to understand what to do and what not to do, creates a context that is all about agency. That's how we become the most confident ourselves going through the world. It's like, I know not to cross the street when there's a car coming. So we underestimate it because we leave, we like to then tend to leave all the options open and the dog is constantly like, mm-hmm, you know? So yeah.

Amazing. I'm gonna just ask you one more question. It's gonna be a slight caveat and you've, come out with all this amazing content online, and you've been so educational and inspirational, especially to the Balance community. But with that, you've upset a lot of people, and you've upset a large faction of dog trainers in the force-free community. And while you're very consistent in presenting your logic and backing everything up with science, yet you upset and up earth, and you send people into turmoil. And they go beyond just getting disgruntled. Why do they get so upset? Why do you think the real reason is why these people get so upset when you present them with this sort of logic?

Well, it has a term, it's cognitive dissonance. And we all hate being in a situation where we have a very strong belief system. And then someone presents something that doesn't align with it. And how you're dealing with that is a measure of resilience too, right? How you're dealing with that is you either ignore it and walk away or you protest as hard as you can. And the level of how much you protest depends on how much you identify with that belief system. And what the motivation behind is, there's motivation of this is just my reputation, my business is based on that. Of course, you kind of just for the sake of raising your voice, you raise your voice. But those who get really, really nasty—

Nasty, the nasty ones.

Really nasty ones. They're the ones that probably have this, this, my identity is helping all the dogs in this world living a better life. I'm doing good. And it's such a strong belief system because it's value-driven and emotional. And you can't— it's very hard to get through that barrier with just facts or science per se, especially if they think science is on their side too.

Gotcha.

So it's kind of— it's deeply painful for people to realize maybe there's more because you would have to admit fault and you would have to admit that you don't know what you're talking about or at least have gaps of knowledge. And these two things There's like in life is people want to be right, for one. People want to be valued. If your value system is based on how much you fight for dogs, the good fight, and they want to feel like they have purpose, and that clashes if they have created all these identity values based on we don't need aversive control in dog training, and I love dogs and everyone who does that, and you create this imaginary picture of everyone who uses the e-collar or the non-contact or any aversive tool is like hammering the dogs and torturing them. And there are people who do that, right? But the upsetting part is that the ones that know best how to apply these frameworks and you can literally see dogs thrive, they're ultimately the ones who can call out the bad guys, not the ones who just put everything in the same umbrella of abuse. So that's where the deviation happens. That's where it's not a cause anymore that has actually going somewhere. It's not going anywhere. It's just about their personal identity. And if you see me standing there saying the science, that hits hard because now I have to argue against the science that I realize I can't really understand. I'm going to attack the person who says it. And it's a cop-out.

For sure. And for my own personal curiosity, have you convinced anyone to change their mind?

Yes.

Many?

I don't know of many because not everyone then reaches out.

Do you get the secret messages from the force-free dog trainers and go, hey, shh, don't tell anyone, but—

Yes, I do.

Yeah, yeah, I get a few of them.

Some big ones. And then a lot of like trainers who become like, who say because of the way I presented it makes sense to them. They're like, now I want to learn more. And they say openly, they tell me, it's like, I'm not ready to use any of it, but I want to learn. Where can I learn? What can I do? And that happens more and more and more often than I thought it will and does. And I get emails and messages and big trainers too that are known and can't say it out loud. So yeah, it's happening.

Brilliant. Well, Melanie, seems like a good time to wrap up. Thank you so much for our brainstorming mastermind session. And also thank you. Yeah. For everything you do for the dog training community too.

Thanks for having me. You're very welcome.

Guys, if you enjoyed this type of video, then you're in luck because I also had chance to sit down with the man that is widely regarded as the greatest dog trainer of all time, Michael Ellis, who delivered some information about dog reactivity that is guaranteed to blow your mind. So click this video right here, sit down and get ready to have your mind changed about dog training forever.