004 MU Talks+Guest: Leadership and the future of Christian Higher Ed with Dr. Craig Williford

Foreign.

Do you hear that heartbeat?

Sounds good.

That is next episode of Aline and Rob.

No, no.

Mu talks, mu talks.

Mu talks. Portland, Oregon, here we go.

Portland, Oregon, MU talks. Super excited. Today we have a very special guest, and that is Dr. Craig Williford, the president of Multimo University. And I'll let Rob help us introduce our guest and get to know our president a little better.

Yeah, President Will, you've been Craig, as you like to be called, I think, how many years here at Multnomah?

I've been here now six years.

Six years. And before that, pastors pastoral roles and also school president roles.

Yeah, I was a pastor for 20 years, and now I'm finishing my 20th year as a president, which is harder. Both married, huh? Been married 47 years.

Yeah. How'd you fall in love with your wife?

You know, she was a beautiful, beautiful woman, and I was attracted to her because of her beauty. And then I realized she was a beautiful, beautiful person, and I fell in love with her heart and her mind and just realized this was my soul friend. And we've just been best of friends for 47 years.

And that's somehow love works. You know, you start off with one thing and you're like, wow, there's just so much more. And it's a big journey. It's fun.

Rob, we need to. We need to copy that statement. We need to copy paste. If anybody asks us about it, our.

Wives, I don't think we have any trouble either. Pretty good wives around the table here.

Oh, you do? I know both of them were very fortunate.

Very fortunate. Yeah. No, Excited to have you here.

Well, thank you. Yeah.

So today I wanted us to introduce you to Dr. Craig Williford. Now, he. I've never shared this with him, so I'm using a podcast opportunity to do that. But one of the reasons I'm at Multnomah is because when I looked around and, you know, looking for positions and jobs and trying to grow in my. In my career, one of the main things that I wanted to look for is really serve under a senior leader and learn and grow from that perspective. And Dr. Craig Williford has a very interesting way of interviewing. Right. So I applied for the position and I got an email and said, hey, you just want to do some coffee? You want to go out for some coffee? And I'm like, this is the smartest way of interviewing that I've ever seen in my entire life. So we went and had coffee. But in that coffee, we're literally like interviewing each other. I Think. But what I got to see instantly is that he's a senior leader, an executive leader, and I was really excited to serve under his leadership. So here we are seven months later, working together and serving together, and I decided that it's really wise for us to kind of expose ourselves to some discussions on leadership. And I definitely. I have one question, really a main question that I want us to start with. And then, Rob, I want you to see if we can go back and forth and ask as many questions as we can. And we're gonna land today more on things that, you know, young leaders should know. And I think, how Dr. Williford put it, like, things I wish I knew when I was a younger leader. But that's where I want us to land our discussion. But I want to start with a simple question. What does it really mean to be a president? What do you do as a president? What are some of the responsibilities that you carry on your shoulders and just start the discussion there and then bleed into, really, the discussion on leadership and leaders, young leaders.

You know, as a president, I think more than anything, you are called to model the values, the mission and the vision of the school. People watch me. They watch everything that I do. And it is important to live and embody what you want the university to be as an organizational culture and what it's trying to accomplish. The main task of a president is to create the environment and the resources for the faculty and staff to do their job of equipping our students to love God and their neighbors through purposeful lives and work. And so my job is fundraising. My job is working with the board. My job is making sure that people understand the roadmap going forward and why and what we're doing, and then finding the best people that I can to lead various aspects of the school and then stay out of their way. Oh, wow. Oh, wow.

Yeah. Watching you the last couple years, it seems a number of things stand out. Two of the things. One of the things is hiring. You've hired some really good people directly under you. And that always, to me, seems to be a sign of a good leader. When you're looking for guys like this, what. What do you look for? How do you find them?

Well, you know, the old cliche is you want chemistry, be able to work together and work in the organization. You want character and you want competency. That's the old cliche. What I look for is somebody smarter and better than I am. That's basically what I look for. Now, it may not be they're fully there yet. But they have the potential, and I can see the potential that they're going to eventually be better than I am as a leader, because my job is to increase the leadership quota at the university, not get people who are going to be managers. So I look for people who are smart. I look for people who have that deep character. I look for people who are collaborative, and I look for people who will push me and make me learn, because I need to learn at least enough to know how to lead well. And that's what I look for, is just really talented people with deep character who are ready to serve Christ, but they got to have that dynamic relationship with Christ, too.

Yeah, I was reading John Maxwell yesterday, or actually with some students, the law of the lid. I don't know if you're familiar with that. You know, sure. I'm basically how good the leader is, is how good all the people under him can be. And it seems to me that that's a fairly significant thing. Another is fundraising. I believe I heard recently that over the years you've raised 500 million.

Yeah, I'm north of 500 million as a pastor and as a president, But I think the best way to look at that is to say God released over $500 million in resources at the organ organization that I served. You can't. A president or a pastor can't make people give. What he or she can do is create an environment where people are generous and passions are connected to vision and strategy. Donors give to somebody they trust with a passion they admire and a vision they think is realistic and that they want to participate in. So forget the presidential spin. I hate presidential spin. Forget trying to sell people, because especially wealthy people, they're getting approached constantly. And so they've got to trust you and believe in you, and they don't like for you to do that. So some people like to be asked for money, some people don't like to be asked for money. And you've got to figure that out. So it's an art and a science. It's the art that comes over years. But ask more questions if you'd like about that.

Yeah, that's. That's important. I. I've done. I've done my share of fundraising. Never nowhere near close to the level of doctor, but just with grain for pain and with the ministry we've done. It's such a hard balance because it comes with a large slice of humble pie. You really need to be humble enough to accept, because people will, you know, ask all kinds of questions. Do all kinds of things, but also with confidence. Confidence that you know, you know exactly what you're asking. Because when people really entrust you with a large sum of they trust that you're going to do something with that. So that's why I really appreciate to hear that from in this discussion now as we. Because I really think we should repeat that for younger leaders. That perfect formula of you mentioned something.

Like, you know, art and science.

Art and science.

Right. For.

For. And this comes with the position, right? With either presidential, any leadership position, you have to do that. Arts and science of. And raising funds that comes with that.

Yeah, Just sorry. Side sidebar. So with the fundraising and I've heard that, I've heard people say that before about presidents. That a huge part of the job. It's part of it's representing the school and part of it's maybe promoting the school. But then a big, huge part is 40%. Yeah, yeah, I've heard that from other presidency. Do you, I don't know do. Is that, is that a good thing? Is it a bad thing? Like, it seems to me that if you're a president, you'd also vision, you know, you'd want to be in that. And I'm sure you are in that. But with, with more of the slice going over to fundraising, is that, is that just a reality or is there.

Well, it is a reality because Christian higher ed is getting more and more expensive. Even running a church is getting more and more expensive. Personnel cost, fixed costs and those kind of things. But when you've got a real dynamic vision, you need resources to reach that vision. And people are. It used to be 20% of the people gave 80% of the funds. Now it's as low as 5% of the people give 95% of the funds. And so you've really got to know, nurture that 5%. But I think more than anything, the mistake that we make in fundraising is we personalize it. So if somebody says no, somebody thinks, well, they just said no to me. No, no, you're matching what God's doing in their heart with what God's doing at your organization. And God's the giver of the resources. So if somebody says no to me, I don't take that personally. I just say, okay, wasn't the right person. God's got somebody else out there, so I need to go find those people. But I'm always surprised, especially pastors. If you're a pastor and you're listening to me, wealthy people and pastors, for whatever reason, don't get along with each other. And part of the reason may be that the pastors just don't understand wealthy people. And there's this myth out there that wealthy people can't be wise or wealthy people are just in for the money. That's a lie from Satan. Put that aside. Some are, but most are not. Most want to truly be good stewards of the resources God has given, and they want to do it in a way they see real impact. So show them the impact. Show them how if they give this gift, it'll be an investment in the kingdom and it'll be a sustainable long term. And they love that. So it's mashing passions with passion, the passion of your organization with their passions. That's what it's about.

That actually leads me to a question that I, you know, where we're going to lend the discussion is if you think back some of the things that you wish you'd known on fundraising as you grew into it, because that art takes a lot of practice. Right. But as some of the things that you. You wish you would known when it comes to fundraising, and I think this is an important point that you're making. I actually serve in an ethnic church, and, and I've. I've been part of an ethnic church for a long part of my life. And it's interesting that tension between pastors and wealthy people because we have a series of sermons with like, where rich people go, and. And then all of a sudden you come to ask like, you know, for support, but there's a disconnect there. So I immediately identified with that. If you can think of anything else that you've learned over the years for fundraising, and this podcast is not about fundraising alone, but 40% of a job of a president is that. So we're going to land on this discussion a little bit.

Yeah. I think the art, this, the science is clear. I mean, it's out there. You can read it, you can see it. The art is understanding people, a specific person, and having enough of a relationship built so that you know how to and when to ask. I received $31 million as a single gift. That's the largest gift that I've ever been involved in. Single gift I've ever been involved. 31 million. I never asked him for that. Instead, I understood that I just needed to talk about vision, what's happening? And then they would ask questions, and then I'd let their questions guide. And then when they were ready, they would say, okay, boom. I never ask them. They don't want Me to ask them, they would tell me. But they wanted to know the vision, they wanted to know me, they wanted me in their lives in other ways. And so in many ways, I've been pastor to a lot of wealthy people because their pastor didn't know how to relate to them. And so I've done weddings, I've done funerals, I've done baptisms. I've led people to Christ through fundraising. So fundraising is about generous giving and helping people to be faithful in Christ. And it's interesting how it spreads out into all of life when you do that.

Yeah. Now when you think about in leadership in general terms, you know, if you go back and start all over, what are some things that you wish you.

Knew when you were a young leader? You know, I wish I had spent more time really understanding the difference between my power as a leader and trying to lead through my power and leading through the power of the Holy Spirit. As a leader who is a Christian, serving an organization that is faith based like a church or like Christian higher ed, doesn't matter. Even if you're in a business that's a for profit. What does it mean to be a Christian who leads in the power of the Holy Spirit? So what I did as an early leader was I'm going to work 90 to 100 hours a week. I'm going to make this happen. Damn the family. I'm just going to go, you know, I'm going to be the perfect. And I just, if a challenge came up, I just worked harder and harder and harder. And so I almost bankrupt my family and my marriage until I realized that there's a part of leadership that only God can do. And when I try to take over God's part, it destroys me and destroys my relationships. And I wish I had learned that earlier.

That's good. Can I ask a related question?

Yes, please.

I noticed that the times that I'm leading something and I'm really invested in it, maybe too invested, it's something that's challenging to me. I find myself having difficulty sleeping. I'll go to bed and I'll wake up at three and I'm like, oh, I got this and I got that. And at the worst times when I'm, you know, when I've been the busiest, I've had to get up and work for a couple hours before going back to bed just to clear my mind. And it seems, seems kind of dysfunctional. How are some of the ways, can you manage stress as a leader? How are some of the ways you.

Manage stress Stress is inherent. Being a leader, insecurity is inherent. I know some of leaders want to act like they have no insecurity. That's another lie that we're living. We all feel insecurity. The question is how we manage it. So here's what I do to try and manage my stress. Number one, I exercise faithfully. It is one of the most spiritual things I do sometimes. So I'm a cyclist, and I have a very set routine that I do to help with that. In addition, I practice some of the classical spiritual disciplines faithfully. I get up early, I read the Bible, I pray, I listen, I journal, and then I retreat. Fasting, you can tell by looking at me, isn't one of the spiritual disciplines that's ever worked for me. Okay. Serving others is one that does work, but for me, because of the noise of leadership, it's the retreat on a regular basis. And then once a year, Carolyn and I spend 10 years or 10 years. Yeah, I wish. 10 days somewhere internationally on a beach, and we turn off all electronics, and it's a complete sabbatical from those kinds of things. And it clears my head and mind. In addition, I think having some real trusted friends outside of the organization is critical. My wife is a great counselor. She understands the voice of God far quicker than I do, and she's a great help. But in addition to that, I have peers, and we've been together since 2002, that are presidents or former presidents, those types of things. And we talk to each other and help each other. And then twice a year at least, I meet with a therapist and I do just a checkup. And it's not that I have a specific problem. I take assistant. Okay, what's happening in life? What can I do better? And those types of things. And he. He meets with Christian leaders. That's what he does. And he's been a great help. So that's. That's how I try to manage it. So.

Oh, wow. That. That actually is many more things that I have not considered in doing that, and especially even exercising. And you think it's a small thing, but it just puts. Get some things into. Into good perspective and. And gets you going in a good way.

It's the first one to go for me. Like, I got into a stressful situation the last couple weeks. First thing I did, drop golf. You know, I don't have time for golf. I got to stay focused. I got to be crazy. What am I doing, you know?

Yeah, that's. That's very good. Dr. Henry Cloud said one time and kind of woke me up a little bit that there are three types of people that you're going to deal with in leadership. The wise, the fools, and the evil. And the way he put it was really powerful because I've never considered the fact. And. And he was like, you'll find out how they are just when you put the light on them. Right. If you put the light on a wise person and something wrong they've done, they're like, okay, sorry, you know, I'm going to change. If you put the wise on the fool, he's going to turn the light on you. Yeah, but what about if you put the light on an evil person and all of a sudden. I'm curious to know. You've worked with a lot of people.

I have indeed.

We are in the President's council, like six or seven people, and every single one of them strong leaders, personalities, experiences. But you manage that all. Well, let's talk a little bit about dealing with people with conflict, with, you know, some of the people that you've dealt with. How do you. So three types of people, really, that I'm curious to know how you've work with. Like, how do you. How do you help somebody grow in their leadership, especially when they don't think they need to. How do you. How do you deal with difficult people in leadership positions? You know, some of that. Some of that discussion.

One of the mistakes I made as an early leader was thinking everybody should be led the way I should be. I want to be led. What I've learned now is you need to lead people in a way that's effective in leading them individually as well as a group. And so for me, I'm not uncomfortable sitting down and having the tough conversation. I've had a lot of tough conversations. Some have gone well, some have gone bad. Some have been turned on me and they attacked me and it was evil. So, you know, the three categories for me, I think I love finding emerging young leaders and telling them they're. That sometimes that's what you need. Young leaders need to be told you're a leader. There's things there. And then work with them in developing those things. But every leader brings different things to the table. So how do you relate to that person and encourage that person in light of who and what they are? So for me, it really is just a matter of staying in conversation. If it's character and evil, then Paul's very clear, Titus, warranted, divisive person once, and then the second time remove them from the congregation or the Fellowship, you've got to do that as a leader too. If you've got somebody that's just destroying the organization, you have to figure out a way to get them out of the organization or isolate them so that they're not doing it. But most people, I think are somewhere in that wise and foolish category. And I'm going to change foolish to young and not ready to embrace their weaknesses.

How kind. That was just kind as a leader.

So that's what I'm gonna do. But I, more than anything, I just have the conversation. Yeah.

You know, I was meeting with a bunch of pastors the other day. We're doing a Master of Arts in Applied Theology and doctor Ministry program.

Send them to a website.

It's actually a great program. Like I, I've done it for a few years now and we.

So it's a Master of Arts in Applied Theology.

Applied Theology. And so it's like if, and honestly, this isn't a commercial, this is going to a question. But, but, and one thing that was common to all the guys is conflict. Like, oh, they're all pastors and, and in some way or another, either it's an inter staff thing or it's a person in their church that's mad at them or like how, you know, it seems like a lot of, I think part, a lot of, part of leadership is dealing with conflict.

Oh, absolutely.

What are, what are some tips, you know, a young leader could hear on dealing with conflict?

There's healthy conflict and unhealthy conflict. Unhealthy conflict can't be, can't be enforced or sustained. You've got to deal. Unhealthy conflict's got to go away.

What do you mean by unhealthy conflict?

Well, I'm going to get. Okay. Healthy conflict is when you're having conflict over values, vision, ideas and you're trying to figure out who and what you are. And healthy conflict can get you there. It can help bring that clarity. Unhealthy conflict addresses person, character, motives and its intent is to destroy or its intent is, I'm going to have my kingdom and nobody else is going to have theirs. And it's a very selfish type of a thing. So that you can't tolerate that you as a leader have to address and have to deal with and have to remove it from the congregation. This is what Paul tells us repeatedly in the scripture. But we can go on and on there. I have multiple lectures and class discussions on this particular point, but nobody loves conflicts. Look, if you do, there's something Wrong. People just manage it. Good leaders manage it and manage it and turn it into healthy and get the results that need to be done.

So what I really, really loved, and I actually want to repeat that, not for anybody listening to us, but for myself, is that there are different types of conflict. And there is a type of conflict that you should really not, you know, go through it, but you should really not avoid it, but.

But.

But deal with it differently. I think this is where. This is where it's very tricky for young leaders or for, you know, I put myself in that category somewhat, is that you. You just treat all conflict the same. I need to fix this. I need to resolve this. Where some things you just cannot. You just cannot deal with it like that.

Or some of us just want to get away from it.

Yes.

Put all these things under a rug and hope they go away.

But your point's really good, Eileen. As a leader, you don't have to fix all conflicts. Others can fix it for you. And the mistake that we make sometimes is to think we have to fix it all. That's not a good approach, because sometimes someone else is better suited to fix that conflict, and you don't need to be the catalyst or the spark plug for the conflict.

So it's pretty funny. One of the guys said, we were talking in this discussion about conflict, and he was saying he thought that a significant portion of being a senior pastor was just listening to people complain for hours and then apologizing at the end, which I thought was kind of funny. But are there times when you don't apologize? Or are there times. You know, is. Is apology always a good strategy when you're dealing with. Let's say somebody comes in and they're just unhappy about a lot of things. It's kind of like they have a list of seven pages that. Of things they don't like about you. You know, that kind of. And they're reading you, which is part of leadership. Right. You have people, which is the only. Maybe one of the only things I don't like about leadership is people, not. What do you. How do you respond to that?

Do you.

Is there ever a time you don't apologize? Or do you.

Yes, there have been times when I didn't apologize most of the time. What I do, though, is listen to where I can build bridges of peace and conversation. And what I try to do is acknowledge their emotions versus apologize and where I can redirect. You know, I don't want to shame or guilt or anything of that nature, but listen carefully and Then sometimes help them to reframe, you know, but absorb the emotions in the sense of validate them and then help them to rethink through it. There are times though, when you need to take responsibility. Now, not blame necessarily, but as the senior leader, you are responsible for everything. Not blame, but responsibility. We will fix that. And that's the kind of. Instead of apologizing, usually what I try to work toward is a strategy that moves us forward and share that with the person. I hear it makes sense. You know, I think this is, could be rethought through, but this one really is. We've got to address this. Let me tell you how I'm addressing it or how I will move forward and give them a sense that things are going to be resolved versus things now. On the other hand, I've had people come in and I'm not, I'm not going to be able to fix what they're criticizing, you know, and I don't apologize then I just listen and say, well, thank you. Thank you.

Yes.

Yeah, goodbye.

There are quite a few definitions of leadership out there and it's fascinating to me that it depends who, who you're asking. I was in a room one time and in a class with the un, The UN Vice President of the Peace Corps. And her definition of leadership was a simple one. Are you able to press the button? That's it. She didn't care about anything else. If, if push comes to shove, are you able to press that button? And I'm curious to know. I've seen you, without giving away too much, I've seen you make bold moves and, and just strong decisions in proper time. You didn't take too much time to make that decision and you were, you were willing to press that button, a big button, fast. How do you grow that confidence as, especially as a young leader? Because this, I think it's a, it's an area of weakness. I've seen senior leaders in large corporations that I was part of that were, were afraid to press the button and everybody hurt, everybody hurt because we all knew something has to be done. But they just were not willing to press whatever that button is. She was talking about the President of the United States saying like, oh, good speechwriter, but are you willing to the Bush? So I'm curious to talk a little bit about how do you grow that confidence to get to that point?

Courage is tough. Every decision you make has risk. Every decision you make is going to have fans and going to have critics and it's going to be second guessed if if you are, if you are leading for your own purposes and your own sake, you're not going to be able to push that button. If you are serving because you believe Christ has asked you to serve and you're serving for Christ's sake and for the sake of the kingdom. Again, you understand there's a gap between what you can do, what you can know, and what God's going to do. And if you believe God is faithful and trustworthy and he will guide and direct even if things don't go well, that he has a higher purpose, then you can find, I think, the courage that God said to Joshua, be strong and courageous. Again, I say be strong and courageous. And he says it, what, 12 times in the book of Joshua, at least. And so it's understanding that ultimately the organization you lead is led by Christ and your job is to do the best you can and get wise counsel and then just make the decisions. More and more decisions are being made with less and less information. It's just not because you didn't find the information because you can't find the information. It's just got to be made. And decisions have to be made faster now and have deeper consequences. And if you as a leader aren't willing to fail, you're not going to faithfully follow Christ because no failure is the end. If you're a Christian leader working for Christ. Oh, wow.

What, what a great way to actually bring us closer to the end of this podcast. The reason I say that is we started with a thing that you wanted to, to find out about how to, you know, as a young leader, wish you would known and first thing I heard from you is I wish I would have not worked 100 hours but learned where to trust more and where to lean back on God more as a leader. And then you're ending with you grow your confidence when you've really achieved that, that, that aspect of really leaning and trusting that God is with you and is guiding your path and your will. Very, very, very powerful. We have just a few minutes left and I would like to tap into an expertise that you have. Unless, Rob, you want to take us in a different direction because we had a question on Facebook Live. Now our, our comments on Facebook Live don't work right now, which is really frustrating. But I'm pretty sure people are going to have questions after we post a video. We'll fix that.

Part two.

Part two. But somebody asked us about the future of Christian higher education and it's really cool to keep, keep, you know, connected with what People want to know and. I don't know. I don't know. Rob, if you know anybody better to ask about this question of the future of Christian higher education, somebody that's so involved, you have your hands so deep into this conversation all the way to Washington, D.C. back into our, the level of our school just in a few minutes. How do you see, you know, the Christian of higher education? Some challenges, some threats, some opportunities.

Yeah, the opportunities abound. This whole issue of augmented reality and virtual reality and the use of technology and how that can be used to enhance learning, and that's a fascinating field. And that opportunity is phenomenal. And we as Christians have always been inventors until recently. And then recently we stopped inventing. We got afraid. So let's go back to inventing and being innovative and being courageous, and we're going to find great opportunities. Having said that, here is the. The biggest threat to Christian higher ed, in my opinion, and that is Christian parents don't value it the way that they used to.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

And until we can make the case for Christian higher ed and the cost for Christian higher ed, because the federal and state government's moving toward free four year tuition for undergraduate bachelor degrees at public universities only when that happens and you have to spend a lot of money to do a Christian education versus going to Oregon, let's say, and getting your tuition for free, more and more parents are going to have to evaluate, is it worth the cost? We got to make that case. We've got to make it with the legislatures, we got to make it with the parents, we got to make it with the pastors of the church. That's the question moving forward. Oh, wow. Wow.

That is a strong way to end this podcast. Rob, any last thoughts? Are we good with this?

We've got it.

This is good stuff. Dr. Williford, we want to thank you so much for being with us today. I have a feeling we're going to invite you more and more here to talk about these exciting things, but here we are. Let the heartbeat come. Thank you so much for being with us and have a wonderful day.

Hope for sun.

Hope for sun.

I mean, it's that time of year, some sun.

We're in Portland, Oregon, but these people are not like, still green here.

For all the rest of you in.

The world, have a good one, everybody.