How Is Learning Changing?

And you hear the beat. That means there is another episode coming. Your way of MU talks in the studios of Multoma University. Today we. Double trouble. Double trouble. We have brought two very, very. And I'll add another very special guest to you to talk about and continue our season about learning. How do we learn? Renee?

That's right. Today on MU Talks, we welcome two guests from the Multnomah community. Dr. Jessica Taylor, Multnomah University's vice president of diversity and inclusive development, and Becca Jones, the Associate Dean of counseling and wellness. Both Jessica and Becca are experts in their fields and are advocates for all kinds of changes that lead to human flourishing on our campus. As such, we're excited to have them here today to talk. Talk about the changing landscape of learning. Welcome to both of you and thanks for being here.

Thank you.

Welcome.

That's right. Well, to start with, would you each just take a moment with us to help us be more familiar with you and your role here in the Multnomah community by telling us a bit about your role and what part of your role you're most passionate about?

Yeah, sure. Well, I'll start. Like you said, I actually got a demotion in that introduction. I'm the dean of counseling and wellness.

Oh, I had outdated information. I apologize.

Things are moving fast in Malawi University.

So fast.

So fast.

But in that role, what I love is that I get to run the counseling center, which serves our student population. And one of my favorite things is supervising students who are learning to be clinicians. So really helping new folks enter the field of counseling. And it feels like a wonderful way to participate in this field that I love. Wow.

And I'm Jessica, and I get to lead the diversity inclusive development team. And my favorite thing about Multnomah and my role is actually getting to advocate for our people. I love hearing where the pressure points where the points that can just make people's lives even marginally better and then being able to impact that change.

Fantastic. Oh, I'm so excited to have you guys here. Sorry, Becca. We're gonna have to update that page where I got that information. Well, listeners who have been keeping up with us this season know that we are launching all of our discussions with guests by asking the big question, well, how do we learn? And we've asked the two of you to come today to think about this question from your own perspective, your role here and your expertise, which we want to know from. From you. How is learning changing? Yeah.

Is learning changing?

That's right.

And how is learning changing?

Yeah. I Think it's easy for us to point to some big shifts that have happened recently. Especially we think back to 2020 and the rapid movement that we had toward online learning and distance learning. But I think the two of you probably know some more subtle, less obvious shifts that have happened or are happening right now. And so that's what I'm hoping you'll, you'll bring to us today. What do you think?

I'd love to start just by focusing on how learning is shifting to care more about cultural realities and more about the social, emotional realities of the student walking in, that we're having to take an approach where we have to care more about the person in order to get the information into them and pull information out of them. We're having to start from a more empathetic space. And I think it's actually really beautiful because it's a more holistic and integrated type of learning. Yeah, yeah.

And I think in that same way, I think there's an emphasis on unlearning too, that's happening right now in really thinking about entering into this space with those identities, with our contexts, and allowing ourselves to examine what we want to not live into as well. So there seems to be a shift in that direction. More openness there.

Yeah.

Let me ask a follow up question. This is actually. I'm so happy we're starting there. I was at a conference presenting, and we were talking about online learning, learning and distance education. And the topic came and said, I think what we're missing is the care. There's no care for adjunct faculty in terms of mental health or soul care. Because these people are teaching every term and they have 20 people in their life and they're pouring their lives into. They're saying, like, I've lost this person, I've lost a child, I've lost my mom, you know, experienced this. And they're pouring all that into this adjunct faculty. And there's not one outlet for this person. And it was interesting because the person that was actually mediating the conversation, their first reaction was like, well, that's your generation saying, you know, you, you're so sensitive, you need to talk about these. And I remember feeling like it's not like your generation dealt really well with emotions. You know, that's why you build stuff and you destroy stuff. Because maybe you should have talked to somebody instead of doing all that. But he was so dismissed as, we can't talk about marginal issues, we can talk about emotions. We can't talk about that in the learning. And I'm really thankful that you already brought us into. Is this a generational thing, do you think? Is now changing? Because the world we are is more interconnected? Where. Where do you think this is coming from that we need to consider holistically the person before just putting information?

I think it does come down to some generational realities, but I think that we have generations that are pushing back and as Becca said, unlear and saying, well, obviously this didn't work. Obviously, this didn't end in people saying, hey, I'm happy and I'm whole and I'm learning and I'm curious and I'm contributing to my community. We have a lot of pain and a lot of hurt. And so I think a lot of newer generations are saying, well, then let's not do the same thing and expect a different result. But I think that those wars across the generations, we really need to challenge that and say, hey, inclusion is for everyone. Emotions, feelings, integration, learning is for everyone. But it's going to take some folks a little bit more unlearning to get there because of those social scripts that have been put in that it's not safe to have emotions or it's not appropriate to have emotions. So we can't just yell across generational lines and say, don't say, I'm sensitive. You need a hug. You need a therapist. We need to actually work through what was built around someone to tell them that lie, that they don't deserve to be fully human, and that those aren't.

Areas and spheres of learning. I think we even see, like a lot is challenging, that dichotomy of the separation from the mind and the body or the spirit and really realizing that we are, I think, who is it? Brene Brown says it in one of her texts that we are feeling people who sometimes think. And we've often had this sense that learning is, you know, cognitive. It's so cognitive, and that that's where it needs to remain. And I actually think that that's more of a cultural shift and a lot about, you know, Western white culture than it is about truth. And we see neuroscience backing that up, that learning is about bodies, learning is about feelings. And so I think students are also hungry for that, are hungry for that information and that integration as well.

That integration, I think, especially works biblically, depending on how you're reading scripture, if you're reading scripture disembodied, that the flesh is evil, that the flesh has no place, you shut that down. And so whether it's crying or feeling your feelings or just Even checking in and trusting your gut. We're literally taught to not do that in some faith tradition within Christianity. Reading the same text, and I think people are reading it with fresh eyes. And saved. Jesus literally embodied himself. He felt pain, he went away, he rested, he cried, he ate, he drank. That is not accidental. And I think we've made that a side story. We've made that accidental instead of saying he entered into our full humanity and would want us to experience our full humanity alongside him. I did not get that message growing up in Christianity, and I think we're reclaiming a lot of that now.

Yeah.

Yeah. So do you guys see a lot of these changes as content changes that come to students in what they're learning, or is there also a space and relational component that needs to change in our classrooms?

Yes, all of the above. Exactly. Actually, I do a lot of redlining and editing of curriculum, and I think that a lot of the content changes are things where I'm asking the question, what is missing? Who is missing? If I read this from XYZ perspective, will I see myself in this story or will I understand my placement within the larger context of the topic I'm trying to engage? And so I do think the content has to change to be more accessible. I think expecting everyone to assimilate to one way of learning or one way of reading has been part of the problem with education, is that it's not truly accessible, and it should be. It's a great equalizer when we can think that way. So, yes, content, but then also approach. I think it's both. And.

Yeah. And when we don't make it accessible in that way, we're really limiting the voices that we hear from and the possibilities for learning. And it can. Yeah, I think I just liked that point and thinking about who's missing when we make learning so narrow.

I was challenged, even coming into higher education, because I'm newer to higher education, to look at my bookshelf and to look at who I was reading and who I was listening to. And it was predominantly white and male, like, embarrassingly so. And it hadn't been something that I had actually wrestled with or wondered, oh, am I just hearing from one voice? I'm like, there's hundreds of authors represented. But they were all from one perspective. And so even being able to deconstruct and ask myself, well, why would this group of people be invited to write books, be invited to publish, be invited to say something to me, and realizing that my learning as well had been really constricted and when we are educators, we should want to just blow that out of the water and say learning is not about individual indoctrination from one viewpoint, but that is actually about clashing viewpoints together and then coming up sometimes with something new. And I didn't have necessarily an opportunity to do that until I started asking those questions.

I think it brings up the tension that we're seeing a lot about this desire, I think, for learners to want to learn from people that not only represent them, but also that they agree with, which I think that's been an interesting point to be thinking about as the question. And like, you know, you see it in the media or, like, out. Out there right now, even about free speech, about, like, are we willing or open to hear from voices that we don't agree with? And I think there's that. That tension there of, like, wanting to have that diversity of voices. And then also, I think one of the pieces that I've wondered about in learning right now is how we're making room for folks who see things differently and that the complexity and nuance of that.

I think a lot of that comes from the place where we think that learning means that there's an expert or there's someone that's kind of arrived and then teaches it. And there's a power dynamic wrapped up in that. Instead of learning being truly more democratic and really leveling the playing field, we see it as power. And so we want someone to be the expert. And in that, we also are begging for certainty. Learning shouldn't be offering a bunch of certainty all the time. It should spur more questions. And yet we're a people that want certainty, because then I know right from wrong and I understand my place in it and how to navigate the world. But when we've set it up as a power differential and we've set up the end goal of learning to be sure, right there, we just cut off all learning. And so I think we really got to challenge that dichotomy, too.

But isn't that an interesting piece in the context of Christian higher education where, like, truth is really important and yet, you know, truth and certainty, I think, sometimes get confused.

Yes.

For one another. There's some. Yeah. That makes me feel uncomfortable right now.

Yeah. Certainly is hard to talk about truth.

Yeah.

Certainly in the way we approach it or in the way that historically we've approached it.

Right. Yeah.

With the dynamic of power. I am curious and Renee, I'm sure you have many questions to lead us through. Through this, but I curious because one thing I'VE learned working with, with you, both of you, and learning from you. Learning has changed in many ways. Even in multimo university. We learn from each other. It's a revolutionary thing that we're doing here. We're learning from each other. But one thing that I've learned is how fundamentally different Gen Z's communicate and what causes they pick up, what they're connected to and completely disconnected to what they hold as something that they're passionate about. And I'm curious how that is affecting the way they learn and how. I was doing a visit recently, an accreditation visit, and I asked the students what were some challenges to your learning and the immediate, the first one was the attention span and how much like you're giving so much information. But we don't care about your like long sentences and heavy books and stuff. So I'm just curious from what you've seen because you're catching, I think the, the, the other end of the classroom, which is what happens after the classroom, the anxiety that comes from that, the challenges that, you know, with all this, how have you seen shifts? They're not just generational maybe, but generational of course.

I mean, where do we begin? I think one of the pieces that you, you highlighted as attention span for sure, and, and part of that too is that that one way of learning that we have typically had or maybe historically relied upon, which is like an information dump, just isn't matching with the experience. I think of this generation, which is like tiny TikTok excerpts at a time and learning is happening in small bite sized doses versus and so I think a lot of time, a lot of times I feel like students are asking for moments to pause and integrate, to reflect, to engage. And again, I think I keep coming back to this, to embody it and like wrestle through that. Which is interesting because sometimes for me, even in my roles in the classroom, I feel like I'm not doing as much if I'm like, okay, break out and engage. I'm like, is this just me giving myself a coffee break? You know, but actually there's so much learning in rethinking that way of approaching it, of giving those experiences. And so that's one thing. And then, you know, I think the other piece is just anxiety is so high right now and this is not this generation's problem. I find that often we're like, oh, this new generation is so anxious. And it's like, no, we're all anxious too. We're just medicated or numbing it or have, you know, we're busy. We're busy. Yes. Which is both medicating it and numbing it, you know? And so I think collectively there's more angst and anxiety out there. And so it's hard to learn when you don't feel safe. And I think our brains just aren't able to be open the way that they need to be to learn. And so that context feels important.

Becca, you called something out about that kind of tendency to say this generation, or kind of push it as a negative. I think in every generation, one of the things God does is he brings something new. And so I think this generation is challenging us to simplicity. And I've been known in a zoom meeting or two to say, explain it to me like I'm five, and then eat an uncrustable. Because I think it is so important. If you cannot talk about the thing that you're passionate about or that you need someone to understand in a way they can understand it, then this is not actually about learning. It's about ego. So can we simplify it enough, including in the length of time we take to say something, to say, here's the heart of the point, and then let people wrestle with the heart of the point that that necessitates a simplicity, even a childlike wonder that I think we don't want to have an education because we're all experts. But really that childlike wonder I is where Christ always calls us back to. It's very simple, some of these truths. God loves you. And then I could spend the rest of my life trying to figure what that means. But that simple truth didn't change and needs to continue to be communicated to me in a million different ways, with all kinds of ways for me to talk in community and integrate it. And we got away from that. There's a bunch of words around it that I would have to dig through to get to instead of just continuing the simplicity of the point.

Yeah.

Oof. Don't bring up my ego. Don't make me feel that. But I think that, I guess I wonder because it feels like ego is something that my generation, and I'll just speak for that, that we worked really hard not to look at, and we worked really hard on hiding, like, what Richard would say was, like, our shadow sides and like that. That was the emphasis and we didn't do a lot of work on our ego. And I think that this next generation is calling us to the carpet on that. They are saying, you know, I'm here for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We want. I think there's more truth telling that is happening. And maybe that's just my perspective, but it. Yeah, it feels. It feels significant. Yeah.

I'm wondering from your perspectives, why is higher education, why is the college experience a good place to tackle some of these things? Because the generation that's arrived here now and is, like you said, calling us to task, they haven't had those changes through their earlier education. Right. They've been wrestling through it till now. So why is this a good season or a good time or a good place for us to try to bring those changes for them in our classrooms?

I think it only is if we're creating good community. Because you can go read a book on your own. Higher education should be about having a community to learn. And so if we're creating that sense of belonging, if we're creating the safety that Becca talked about to be able to be not activated and able to learn and some psychological safety and with support, that's where I think we need that in our society. We need people to have had a respite to come in to learn, to understand, to wrestle, to disagree, to learn how to do that well. But that's really in the context of community. And a lot of times we only make that about the classroom. The classroom is a community and then there's an extension to that community depending on the modalities you're using to access education. But across modalities, we have to be figuring out how do I create a community that this person can learn?

And I think higher education offers a community that. That kind of shakes some of the community that we participated in or were raised in. Like thinking about coming out of different. Different literal communities, coming out of different families, coming out of different faith traditions and being thrown in the mix. That's, I think, a picture of the possibility of true community that can offer that learning and can offer that time to like, change and grow. But, you know, it complicates things. So I think it's especially important for us to be thinking about how are we framing these opportunities, how are we supporting that as things change so rapidly for students from what they're used to?

I think we are getting very close to the end of our time today, but not before we're going to do something that we actually do in, in every episode this season, and that is to ask three of the same questions. And Renee has done a great job to actually, like put those questions in front of everybody. And I'm very curious to hear your thoughts on those two.

Yeah. Just as an opportunity for us to take all of this, which, I mean, we've gone in lots of directions here and just kind of distill it down for ourselves to, in those small bites. Right. Have it, have a moment to reflect. So what I want to ask is what has your, your discipline, your role, your personal experience taught you about the way that people learn?

Yeah. So I think for me it's people learn in small, tiny steps. And so as someone who often is walking alongside folks who are learning, it's an, it's. It takes grace and it takes patience and I think it takes believing in them. And so, yeah, to allow it to be slow.

I love that, Becca. And I think for me it looks like unlocking how people learn by starting with trying to unlock their heart, trying to unlock what it is that connects them to the larger humanity. And when we do that, I think there's nothing people can't learn, but it has to be a direct connection to something they already care about, something that already makes their heart sing.

This next question, you guys have kind of already touched on it, so feel free not to make up a brand new answer here, but like, how do we then use that? What advice can you give to someone who wants to be a better learner? Knowing what you know about learning?

Yeah, I think do it in community. Like, like Jessica said, I think, you know, to open our minds is risky. To open our hearts and to be willing to change is hard. And I think we weather risks best in the company of others. So thinking about including people in on.

That, I would second that and say I think that we become better learners when we are more Christ centered, when we are more humble. And I think that the humility, it, it is the prerequisite for all learning. If I already know, then what can I learn? And so that humility, I think says, hey, I'm just going to practice being wrong or conceding the point. 40% of the time, I'm going to give up some of my power. I'm going to say, you know what? I don't have it all together. And that really precipitates beautiful learning in that humble state.

Yeah, no, I'm going to do a shameless plug to one of our episodes is how do we learn from history? We had Dr. Daniel Skullberg here and throughout the entire episode, Dr. Skullberg said so many times that it became uncomfortable to be like my first was, I don't know, 40 years of teaching and has done a lot of scholarly work, work. And yet in everything he starts with, I have no idea. I don't know.

And I need help, and that's why I trust him.

Yeah.

He's an educator.

Yes, exactly. Why, after so many years of teaching, he still comes. And I think that this is really pointed.

Yeah.

Yeah. So what is an outdated idea about learning that you think we should either throw out or rethink?

I think we're giving you so much power today in this episode, you can actually throw it out.

Yes. Let it be written, Let it be so.

Let it be so.

I think just that learning is only an act of the mind. I would love to throw that out.

Okay, That's a good one. Kind of to your point about Dr. Skullberg, I would say that you don't have to know. And at the same time, knowing is possible. And so when I know something, it's in my whole being, as Becca is alluding to. It's in. It's in my body, it's in my soul, and it's actually through revelation that I know something that God reveals, and it's not through information. So I wish we could throw that out.

It was just revelation on a T shirt for me.

Well, I think I need a minute. Maybe you should give our audience a little time. I have a life principle. You never fly behind a jet. Right. You just let the air go on a little bit and then get your little Cessna out. You know, be like, just let that air go a little bit. But thank you. Thank you both for being with us today. And if you think we're not going to expose you to rapid fire, you have not listened to our season. Not only that. Not only that we have rapid fire, but we gave ourselves a challenge. Right? If we're gonna give you a challenge, we're gonna give ourselves a challenge, and that is to never repeat the same question in any of the episodes in an entire season. And if this is your first episode, you listen to go out and listen to everything, every single one of them. And call us out on social media. Call us out on social media if you think we have asked the same question to anybody. I'll go with the first one. And I chose a question from the Deep Questions poll. We start light. We start light. What is one century that can immediately take you back to a specific place in time? Once Scent.

Wow. It's really hard to. I mean, okay, so the faint smell of clove cigarettes was my grandma. And we didn't know that she was a smoker until she died. And we found her secret stash and so secret stuff. So it was like this, like, you know, if someone was smoking a cigarette, you know, 20 yards down. That's, like, what it smelled like. Just like in her couch. And you didn't quite know, but if I catch that smell, I'm like, grandma.

You know, it's funny because mine goes back to some childhood memories and it's. I think it's mothballs. I think it's mothballs. It's Grandma's attic. It's like, what. What is up there? The mystery of that. But it has such a. This particular smell.

Wow.

Oh, my goodness. I. It. You know that you're going through a lot of seasons in life. When I start doing things that my parents or grandparents are doing, and I'm like, oh, now I know why they did it. Okay.

This one will take so much thought. Cats or dogs?

Dogs. Dogs.

I am a cat. Oh, I can see that now that you say that. Listen, I'll scratch you. Cuddle, cuddle, scratch.

Cats scare me. Yeah.

I don't like cats.

You can't have competition in the house.

Nope. I'm the queen.

You're not gonna bring another guy?

No. No, no, no. Because I. Yeah.

Okay. Teleportation or flying?

Teleport. Oh, my goodness. I would travel the world if I.

Could teleport, and it would just be more efficient. And that's.

Okay.

You know, three is gonna. Three.

Well, you know, I would. I wish to complicate the thing. Every time you teleport, you lose something.

Okay.

You would still do it?

I would do it. Yeah. If it got me there fast.

Yeah.

Worth the cost. Efficiency. Yep.

Okay.

What is your favorite thing to do all by yourself?

It's not going to sound academic. I love doom scrolling TikTok and learning things in one second. Snippet.

Yes.

And just going down that hole until it's like, whoa, hold on. You've been here a while. Don't judge me.

There's people that are so creative. So creative.

Brilliant.

Yes.

Yes.

And I just love going down a learning rabbit hole.

Absolutely. I love to drive by myself. And that is only because right now I have small children, and if I have them in the car, then I have to listen to their music. And that really changes my Spotify algorithm. So I. Yes. I just love my commute in the mornings.

Wow.

What is your cell phone wallpaper?

My kids.

Yeah. My family. Really cute pictures of my family.

Very nice.

Have you ever won a contest?

I'm a very unlucky person. I don't win things unless there is effort involved.

A contest can have effort.

Yeah.

Wow.

I'm trying to think. I Have. Interesting. I got really close in college to a pickleball. I was second place. My doubles partner, Katie, she and I just laid on the court before pickleball was cool. Before pickleball was cool.

Paving the way.

Yeah, but second place, that's not winning. I. Yeah, I'm have to think on that. Okay.

Oh, here's a good one for you. If you can become instantly an expert in something, what would it be instantly like? You walk out of the studio and you're an expert.

People, people. How people work, how they think.

Oh, that was really deep. Now I have to come up with something that says Mac and cheese. She wants pickleball. Peace. World peace. I choose world peace.

You chose world peace.

Yeah.

Good job. Good job. Okay, last question. Are you ready? The zombie apocalypse is coming.

Yeah, I'm ready.

Who are three people you want on your team?

I already have a commune of people that moved in two houses away from me. We already have a team for that.

We are prepped.

I'm not joking.

We go.

I am prepped.

Okay.

Prepped.

Okay. I would have. So I'm just gonna say right now, I am a pacifist, but I have one brother who is not, and he has a store of guns. So that brother, my friend Cindy.

Get somebody with guns.

My friend Cindy, who you back her into a corner, she's gonna fight. Do you know?

Okay.

And then my husband and I feel really bad that I didn't start with him.

Start with him.

Well, you're a pacifist.

I was saving the best.

This is zombie apocalypse.

That's great.

Shout out to Daniel.

Well, thank you so much for being with us today again. What an absolute pleasure. I think we're gonna make it a discipline every season. You have to show up. I am. If you have not. If you have not listened to the other episodes that we did have with actually Becca and with Jessica, please go to season one.

And I think we have you in.

Season two, too, also, Multoma. Plus we have a course with our very own Dr. Jessica Taylor in there. Blurring the cultural lines and learning the cultural blurred lines. It's something around the blurred lines, but it's. Yes. Blurring the race lines. I was so close. I was so close. But please go and check those out. Those are great resources. Once again, thank you for being with us.

Thank you. Thanks.

Learning has shifted, but our disclaimer has not. Views and opinions expressed on MU talks belong to our guests and to us, not to Multnomah University Sat.