How Do We Learn?

Great music. Better company. Very excited to be back in the studio of Multnomah University recording another episode of MU Talks. And this is your host, Ali Marancila and Renee Duffy in the studio.

That's right. Welcome, everybody. Today we get to welcome Multnomah University professor Ruben Alvarado.

Ruben.

Ruben's role here at Multnomah is primarily in our seminary, where he is working to make a more robust connection for our pastors in training with local communities. He's also a co pastor at Theophilus Church here in Portland, Oregon. Welcome, Reuben. Thanks so much for being here.

Thank you. Welcome for letting me be here. This is great.

Yeah. Welcome back.

Yeah, welcome back.

That's right.

Okay.

So this season on MU Talks, we're exploring the big question, how do we learn? And we're doing that from all kinds of vantage points, bringing in the expertise of the Multnomah community to build a kind of robust idea of learning and the practices that make it more fruitful and enjoyable for us as human learners. So last time you were on the podcast, we talked about a theology of being human, specifically what including the diversity of disabled voices in that discussion adds to our theology. So if you haven't heard that discussion with Ruben, I highly recommend going back to season two and listening after today's conversation. It's totally beautiful.

It really was a cool conversation. Loved it.

Yeah. Today you're going to bring that same lens to the topic of learning. But before we dive in, would you mind sharing with us just about that chapter of your life and how you've come to be in this space where this is your topic?

For sure. Thank you. Yeah. First of all, I want to just share that, like, as an able bodied person. Right. Speaking in this sphere is something I have to be very careful about, but also understanding that my voice cannot replace the voice of my friends. So there's about 13 years that I spent in vocational training, ministry with adults with developmental disabilities and mental health diagnoses and physical disabilities. And then after that period, I turned towards disability theology and helping churches invite and welcome people with disabilities into their communities. But all of that work is done with and alongside people who have lived experience. And so I don't necessarily speak for, but alongside, so that we might be able to, in the spheres that I'm in and the circles that I'm in, open up conversations so that people would be more willing to see and to hear the voices of those people who have disability as one of their life experiences.

Awesome. Great. Okay, well, let's get into it then we're looking at this big question. How do we learn? So, yeah, where do you want to begin? What's kind of maybe some underpinnings of what you've brought out of your experience that speaks to how we learn?

Yeah, absolutely. So I was, like, really young when I started working in that field. I was, like, 20, and they let me be a vocational trainer, which is kind of absurd. And so it's like, how do we help people learn job skills? And that seemed really easy at first. It's like, oh, I know how to clean a toilet. I'll teach you to clean a toilet. But then the disconnect is often, why do I need to clean a toilet? What purpose does. Like, why does it matter that I learned to clean a toilet? And we're like, so you can get a job out here? And they're kind of like, do I want a job? Right. Like, so you have some. Some places in which you have to understand motivation. Right. And that was like, one of my first learnings was, why are people motivated to learn a thing? Which. Which helped a ton, and it helped me become a better learner of people. Right. But I had to have a certain curiosity. And that's what I want to talk about today is that curious learning that when we engage being like an investigator and someone who's. Who's looking for answers, not someone who has answers. Right. But as someone who's looking for them, having developing good questions and curiosity help me understand how people learn. And so in that environment, I was working with people with developmental disabilities and how they learn, but I quickly saw how it applies to every person. So how we break down jobs and learning how we understand breaking up the pieces of cleaning the toilet. Right. But also, why. What is this person curious about in their life? And so, like, one of those stories is a young man who told me he wanted to. He used to be able to order a pizza, and then in this new place and knew he moved to a completely different town, had a new job, and he couldn't order a pizza. And I could not understand what his.

Issue was about a pizza? Yeah.

Like, why. Why are we doing pizza? Like, and why can't you order again? And it turned out he didn't know his new address. Okay, great. So we. We helped him learn his new address, but then he still couldn't order a pizza. And he was like, oh, I need money. Like, yeah, we do. We do need money. Right? So then I'm like, so the job we're doing. So it was an immediate connection to go, this is the importance of learning the job skills.

You are.

You'll be able to order your pizza. So his curiosity wasn't necessarily about how to make the best picnic table, you know, or how to make one that people want to buy, but it was about how do I make the money to do this thing in my life I want to do. And I think when we find those places of curiosity for our learners, we can help move them into finding a curiosity in the thing we're trying to teach them.

That is fascinating. You know, I have a. I do think that every, almost every academician should spend some time in vocational. Like it's so palpable. But you can clearly see and learn so much about learning instead of being disconnected and just being consumed with the expertise.

Right.

But rather how does that knowledge transfer so such a great experience that you bring to the table. Somebody said one time, it was a primary school teacher said something that I never thought about before and that was. And I have, I have young kids, we have a seven year old, five year old, three year old and a six month old. So that whole situation going on there.

But.

And so I'm looking at them and it's actually very interesting. I have, I've done very little to teach him roller skating. They wanted me to get them roller skates. I went through all the fears that every normal person would go getting that they're in the house. It sounds like five jet engines are going through my house right now. But they've learned how to roller skate in like half a day.

Like right.

And they're all, don't ask me about the furniture and what's going on. But they did because they really loved it. They tried everything. And somebody said, you know, all the way to. The kids are 7 years old, they go and they learn so much. And then we put them in classes to learn something that they're not curious about, they don't want to know about. And then we grade them on how poorly they do or how good they do of learning. Learning things that they're just not curious about. Right. So I'm, I'm just. And that happens now. Like now we're actually being pushed and, and it's hard for us to learn. So I'm curious from your experience and expertise, how do we foster curiosity in how do we grow it? How do we motivate it?

How.

What are some things that you've seen? Right? Because if you're curious about something, you're just gonna try to figure out and try to stop somebody that is really curious about it. But how do we foster curiosity?

Absolutely. It's so difficult. And I think there are some steps we can do, though, and one of those is like, finding out being good, like being curious about our learners. What's stopping them from being curious?

And so that's a good.

Sometimes it's not just that they're not curious. It's that they are afraid to be curious because, like you said, we taught them to not be curious. And so one of the fears is failure. Right. I'm going to put this question out, and I'm going to show everyone I know nothing. And it's like, we're worried that, like, we don't know a thing, but our learners should be like, okay with the idea that we don't know a thing. That's why we're here, to learn that. And so we have to help them get to the place where failure is not a thing to be afraid of because it's not a failure. Right. We have to redefine not knowing. Not knowing isn't a failure. Not knowing is the. The beginning of learning. It's not actually a failure. But our society kind of tells people we have to have a base knowledge, an opinion on, like, everything that happens in our world. Like, if somebody goes, what do you think about? And then they give you, you know, this topic.

Yes. You're supposed to be able to say something.

And what about just, I don't know. Right. Like, I need to go study that more. But we don't. We haven't built that. Another way would be like, encouraging that curiosity when you see it come out. So sometimes people ask a question, and it is a really bad question to ask in class. It just doesn't pertain. You're like, what is this? Like, yeah, that might have been a stupid one, you know, and to go, okay, but. But I can't squash that because they will go, yep, see, I told you. You know, so. So you have to find the nugget in that thing that's good at, you know, to answer that. That piece of that. That nugget. That's a good thing to answer. For many of my students in my classes here, I will do that outside of class. Sometimes what I notice in their assignments, they're curious, but in the classroom, they're quiet. And so I'll have time after and go, like, your questions here are great. What would it take you to bring those into the classroom? And usually it's the students that English isn't their first language or they don't haven't studied my topic that I'm teaching enough. So they feel scared. Right. And they're like, other people know more than me. Like, sure, they know more information than you, but the question you're asking is one about how this applies to your life because you've actually experienced something different than the rest have. So your question helps the whole. And so what I do for those students is I'm like, you send me your questions and then I'll put them into the room and nobody has to know it's your question. But after a while, they saw how their question impacted the whole and they're like.

And others might have been have the same curiosity.

Yeah. And then it started their questions. And so after like three, four weeks of that, I noticed those students will sometimes raise their hand now and put their opinion or their thought into the room. And now everyone knows where that question is coming from. And so that person's getting the direct feedback in this space immediately. So those are some of the things I try to implement.

Yeah. I, as I'm listening just to this, I don't want to pull us off into another topic, but I just keep seeing that the way to bring out someone else's curiosity is one to allow yourself to be curious, but then also to just respect their humanity. Right. Like, because the response is the things that are stopping these students or people is this fear that they're not allowed to be who they are. And, and just hearing that your question matters, their experience matters, just because it's them. That's right. Yeah. I just feel, I feel a lot of this just like being human together kind of ignites us.

Yeah. It was. I one time I was part of a conference on action research. Love action research. Absolutely love it. One of the things that I love about action research, very different than any other research method, for example, is in case study, you as a researcher have the full authority and power, and it's in your hand. It's their story. But said by you and your pen.

Right.

So you're writing their story. Action research is you're actually trying to improve your practice, but you have 50% of the control. And then the people that you work with have 50% they can take in any direction you want. And you. There's nothing you can do to stop them.

Right.

Not so with the case studies. So I loved about action research and I think it ties to this curiosity. If. If the full power of that is in your hand. Right. Where then you're going to manipulate this. But if you allow yourself that humility that it depends on others too. You, your social learning, everything. But what was fascinating about this to not digress was we went to a high school in New York that were using action research as their framework of. And modest operandi in the school. And what they did there, which I thought they should have all the administrators in the high school on suicide watch. It's impossible not to. And I know I'm here's. I'm going to explain why. Because they change the curriculum every term. So they come to the classroom and they ask students, so what do you want to learn now? And they're like, World War II, we don't know anything about it. I'm like, that's it. The whole term is World War II. And I'm thinking like, who are these administrators that are going to be like, I think this is the curriculum now and they reinvent that. But what's happening, that's very different. The example there, and I'm going to land on a question coming your way was this. It's called I school. So it's not a high school, but high school. Okay. I'm going to move right past that. The high school actually is the most awarded high school of having contributed connecting students, high school students to businesses to actually do. So businesses come to them and they ask them like, give us like a rooftop garden idea that you would love. And they came up some brilliant ideas. I mean, I'm talking about like, you know, things that the business could have used.

Yeah.

And they actually used. Which is really hard to do sometimes student workers in. In higher ed. And I've done some projects. You get them and like, oh, you know, I still have to patch it a little bit. And so the. Some of the success stories that you've seen with where curiosity really paid off, even in higher ed or even in vocational stuff. And. And how do we actually motivate people to really explore their curiosity? Because it just makes a world of a difference.

Absolutely. Okay. So one of the stories will be my own. As a pastor in the Portland area in charge of doing community development work, I met with all of our county's commissioners and I was like, I'm going to be ask all these questions. But I had a. I had a box in which I wanted them to ask the answer those questions. Right. So it's like I wanted to know where could my church best serve the city? Right. So I was looking for that and only that. So then I asked lots of questions like, what's the biggest need? Why? Yeah, just like these very, like, I don't know. Predetermined, narrow questions. Predetermined. And then they had their predetermined answer based on how they ran, you know, the people that they still had to please. And so they just, like, answered them that way. And I was, like, really, like, dissatisfied with the first two. And I was like, I'm going to reschedule with those two. And I sat down and. And like, it was like a good two or three days of work. I just forced myself, and my whiteboard was full of questions until I landed on one. I forced myself to have one question and only one. And then I'd see where the conversation went. And the question ended up being, Portlanders have a lot of narratives about what we think about our city. If there was one narrative that is rampant in Portland that you would change right now, what would it be? And, like, they didn't know how to answer it. So then we just talked about our families and we talked about everything else. And then all of a sudden they're like, I know. And they got, like, heightened. They were, like, passionate, and they were like. And I learned about how many Native American tribes there are in the Portland area alone. I learned about our immigrant day laborers and the issues that they're facing. I learned about unaccompanied minors. I learned about people in the sex industry just going like, whoa, this, like, went all kinds of places based on their personal passions. And many of them in. They weren't even elected to serve. They might be overseeing, you know, houselessness or parks and Rec. And then all of a sudden, they're. They're talking about how this thing they're passionate about, how they're tying it into their work. But it's not a thing that comes up most often. And we found we had connections in our passions. We had. And for me, that was like, my biggest spot of going. Like, man, I've got to really, if I'm going to do this work well and enter into this city well, I need to learn well and not have any preconceived ideas about what to learn. So that's, you know, one story on my side. Like, let's work really hard on creating those. Those good questions. Good question.

The open ended.

Yeah.

With humility. Allowing the conversation to have some natural flow.

That's right. Let it go. Where?

Let it go. Let it go. Yeah. Yes.

And that's where the learning, like, my learning began about our city, that point. Right.

And all the things I let go.

Yeah, that's right. That's right. And I want to help My students get better there, right? And so sometimes I will ask them questions about their life, questions about things that they've gone through. Those will be personal. They don't have to share them with the room. Just trying to get them that I'm a safe person to ask all of life's questions, too, and trying to get them to develop, like, really important questions. So this semester, we went through the prophets and man, like, all of the prophetic books, all of them, right? And it's like, okay, judgment, repentance, judgment, punishment, repentance, judgment. A little bit of Day of the Lord, but even that's kind of terrible. And also it's good. And, like, you have all these, like, freshmen and sophomores and many of them that are, like, maybe reading these in its entirety and its length for the first time, and you feel it, and you're like, oh, my gosh. You know? And I'm like, I want them to feel so much the. Like, how do we have a God that is loving and just. How do we have one that. That talks about punishment in the ways that he does, and mercy, the ways that he does? How do we combat. And I want them to, like, not just have the right answer about that, because I could have given that on day one. I wanted them to finally. So I just determined I was gonna stay in that vein until they asked the question. And so we were there probably about midway through, and we just kept staying in that vein. And finally, somebody who's one that doesn't put the question in the room very often is kind of afraid. He goes, I just don't get it. And I'm like, what don't you get? He goes, how on earth can he just punish people over and over and over and then still say that he's, like, merciful. This makes no sense. And then I see other people nodding their head, and I'm like, I think a lot of us have that question, don't we? And so it was like, we finally got to the place where the most pertinent question and the best question for learning is came up. And from that point on, more and more people were engaged because they felt they couldn't ask that question. So for me, there's, like, develop the right question, but help people go. There's no inappropriate question either.

Yeah. So what you're saying is allowing their questions to come up, right? Because if. If you are able to answer, to ask your question, it was their question, but they didn't think it can fit there, Right. Once their question can come up, like, Curiosity will follow.

That's right, yeah.

Because what if, what if you had posed that question for them on week two, like, how do you, how do you see that letting that tension grow? Like, what's the result to you in the difference?

Absolutely, I've tried that and it does work to an extent. There are people that go, thank you. You know, that's the question. Yeah, exactly. But for many others, they don't feel the weight of it. Maybe they haven't done their reading as much as they should have. Maybe they're bypassing it because they don't want to feel the feelings and to like have to sit with the thing for a while. It becomes their question and not mine. And I want things to become the learner's question and not just provide the question for them. But there are times, for like, sake of time, I do that. Right. And I'm like, here's one of the problems. And they're like, yeah, that's a problem. And then we like handle it. So for me, that was the one I wanted them to answer. But there were many others. I did introduce the question.

Sure, sure. Wow. So I'm wondering maybe what your thoughts are on why higher education? Why is that kind of that four year degree? Why is that a really good and valuable space to spend time learning through curiosity? Like what, what does that time in life or that particular space of that degree offer the learner as an opportunity?

Absolutely. So we used to have a college group that we ran for about six years before back in a California where we lived. And one of the questions that all of the students came so we would just like eat dinner and sometimes read the Bible together and just be their family outside of like they didn't have family where they moved. And one of the questions that often came up was like, what do I do next? Right. Their whole like existence right now in this time and space where they're at is about some really big questions. They're curious, they really are. And so it's like we already have a very pertinent question right there. And then we have all these disciplines that they're studying. Right. They're very quick though to go, I know what I'm interested in. And that's all I'm going to focus on because they also know that's the only thing they're good at because they don't have much experience. And so I learned this working in vocational ministry as well was the idea that most people choose their next job based on what they have an experience doing. So we would Ask our clients a lot, like would you rather do be a waiter? Or would you rather be somebody who works on a computer all day in this office setting? And they're kind of like, I don't know, because they hadn't had experience doing either one of them. But as soon as we introduced something like janitor and if they had had experience doing that, they're like that one. But is it really your passion? Is it really what you want to do? And that was a question outside of their scope of answering because they only were basing it on their experience. So I see in a four year institution, many young people are coming in and they only have a limited experience. So it's our job to broaden that base of experience and to help them discover there might be multiple passions, multiple things they're interested in. And so I think if they come into my class and they weren't thinking, I'm going to be pastor, Bible scholar, whatever, but they're coming into a Bible class, it's my job to help them grow a curiosity for that. Not because they have to choose to follow in my footsteps, but because they deserve to give themselves a shot at making this part of their base knowledge, to decide, is this something one I'm good at, one I love, I want to go after. And so using that initial curious question, what do I do next to help them and to help us teach in that vein, I think is, is huge.

Ruben, before we actually get into the last three questions of the our episode, because we asked, we asked every, and we're asking every single guest the same three questions. And we're getting such good momentum with that. And it's good, it's good to actually have different perspectives on the same question. I want to ask you a direct kind of question, especially from your experience and expertise, you've studied disability, you've actually got invested significant part of your life into working with that. I recently got a chance to be part of a project that was really exciting. It was actually one of the most exciting things I've done in recent, in recent days, but also heartbreaking. So a country in Eastern Europe invited a few of us to actually be part of the first initiative from the Department of Education to do any form of support for students with disabilities in higher ed, their first in the history of the higher ed initiative from the government to say, here's some awareness, here's how you should work and consider giving access. And it was on accessibility that was the first of its kind. So it's kind of like, hey, I'm Making history. And I'm like, why am I making history in 2023? On. In this area of. Right. Accessibility. So anyways, it was. It was heartbreaking and exciting at the same time. And the whole thing started the entire movement. And again, it was like 15 experts from different places from. From that country and 350 professionals and deans and all this from most universities in the country. So it was a massive movement. But it started. The whole thing was sparked by a student that had disabilities, was in the class, and the professor said, you're a waste of my time. And the student wanted to quit, told another faculty member, and that faculty member worked for the government and said, it's time for a change. And this one individual faculty member started a massive snowball that just couldn't stop anymore. And it became a movement in the country. And so the government got, you know, just created the whole thing. Heartbreaking, exciting. The whole every. The story has everything in it, right? So after all these years of experience, your education, if you could have a microphone and you're having a microphone to communicate with all teachers, educators, professors out there on one thing they should know about students with disabilities or. Or disability and learning and curiosity, what would it be?

Man, you don't know what's best for your learner. I've had teachers tell students, no, you can't get your notes from another person. That's a crutch. I want you to learn. What do you know about this person? What do you know about the things that this person faces in writing notes? Like, who made you the expert in somebody else's need around their disability? I'm pretty sure the person who has had this disability for their life is the expert. So you don't know. And we don't, as teachers often, unfortunately, exercise our humility muscle when it comes to learning about our learners. Sometimes we just believe we know the best. And so we hear about needs that our students have. We hear about accommodations we're going to make. We get these. These emails, we get these things. And so many feel like it's either a cop out, they don't want to do the work. It's a crutch. It's a whatever. And you're like, you don't know, right? Like, we. I think that's my biggest message. You don't know. Go talk to the person. Learn from the person.

Powerful.

Powerful.

Let's go. For. And thank you for that. Thank you for entertaining that.

Yeah. Oh, thank you, Rin, so much for all of this.

I'm not going to Put an echo like editing behind your voice. But I hope what you just said is gonna have a lasting echo through generations.

I kind of wish we had sound effects on podcast. Okay, so just kind of to wrap it up and in summary, we'll ask these three questions. Number one, what has your discipline or your expertise taught you about the way people learn?

I mean, as we've talked about, we learn when we're discovering, when we actually actively take on the role of discoverer and not just receiver of knowledge. And some learning can happen there, but I think the lasting life changing learning happens when we embrace the role of discoverer.

What advice can you give for being a better learner?

I think it ties back to that humility piece. I really do. I think if we come in to any situation believing there's nothing to learn there, whether because I'm not interested or I know more than the person teaching or I don't like the person. Right. Like whatever the reason is, they're not charismatic. That's right. There's a. It's a humility piece. Right. That you can learn something from every person. I have learned more in my life from people that the world has written off as not being able to teach us. Something that I owe my entire life and transformation around my life due to people that have informed it from places that I was taught not to look for knowledge. And it's there.

It's always there. Okay, and number three, what is an outdated idea about learning that you think we should throw out?

Yeah, I would say passivity in learning. That there's a sense in which we see that the, the person giving the knowledge and the person receiving it. The person giving is the one doing the active part and the person receiving is just passive. Right. You're just receiving this information. And you know, one of the things is like, if you're only receiving knowledge, you're not practicing any of the curiosity, the stuff we're talking about, what do you do with this knowledge? Why does it apply those kinds of questions? So to me it's of kind getting rid of that sense of passivity on the learner's part, which takes a lot of time now that I'm doing, you know, teaching in a four year institution full time, like recognizing that was way easier for me to say prior to that to go like, yeah, just do this better. And now you're like, wow, that takes a lot of effort and time to craft the right questions and the right exercises in class to engage at that level. Because. Because I can go in as the one that knows a lot and just talk for an hour. Right. And. And there will be those that learn that way. And so it can just kind of snowball into. That's how I do my teaching. So I have to force myself constantly to break that bad pattern and get rid of it, even in my own. And I believe it 100%. But there's still the temptation to go the other way. And so, yeah, we have to, like, actively root it out. Wow.

The best. So let's not be passive about the rapid fire session and go straight into the rapid fire session and ask. Ask you a few questions because we really want to know also a few things about you, Reuben, and community development. Right?

That's right.

Let me hit you with one of the most specific questions in community development. Favorite grocery item while shopping locally. Community development.

Coffee.

Coffee.

Coffee. Yes.

Do you roast yourself? Do you?

I have just. I have a lot of really good friends who roast and.

Okay. So you don't have to.

I don't have to.

Yep.

Okay.

That's awesome. Are you an early bird or a night owl?

Night owl.

Okay.

Yep.

Favorite TV show.

Oh, that's fascinating. I'm gonna cheat and give you two.

Okay.

So one is the Big Bang Theory. Just love that show.

Oh, that tells us so much about you, Ruben.

Today I'm kind of a nerd, so I love it. The other one is Chuck. Most. A lot of people haven't seen it.

Okay.

It's a fascinating little show and it got canceled. So, you know.

Okay.

Not for your lack of trying.

That's right. I really try.

Keep selling. If you could keep only three apps on your smartphone, what would it be?

Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah. First one hard one is the MLB app. I love baseball. Just give me all the baseball all the time. I got to have the MLB app on there.

Okay.

And then one. You know, pick which social media one, because I probably only would want to keep one. Unfortunately, I don't even want it to make the list.

But one of those for social learning. That's right.

To connect with family.

Yes.

Right.

If that doesn't keep you curious, I don't know what social media.

Okay. Number three.

Oh, number three. You know, I have a. So like an art app. So I have like procreate for my other stuff, but I have some other ones that I can just do, like little drawing.

No way.

Finger. That kind of stuff.

Let it be noted that Reuben didn't say the call like app or messages. The call one. Right. Like forget that the phone.

Email didn't make it.

Call didn't make it. Thanks.

I think we forget that our phones. Yeah.

Like, honestly, I turn my phone off a lot, so the call feature really isn't. Isn't too helpful.

You are such a minority in this world. Like, oh, I. I tried once and, like, I think I got anxiety from the phone being off. If you could learn one new personal skill, what would it be?

One new personal skill. That's a really good question. And I'm, like, stumped because I know everything I want to know.

Where'd that humility go?

No more curiosity.

I like that. Legitimately stumped. That's all right.

All right, well, I'm going to switch it up. Do you have one more.

Sure. What's another career that you think you would be good at since you know all kinds of skills?

That's right.

You can go in any direction with the skills.

That perfect magician. Yeah, I think so. Yeah.

Wow.

I'm learning so much. Yes.

Well, here's my last question. We're gonna end on a, you know, on a funky one. Okay. If aliens landed on Earth tomorrow and offered to take you home with them, whatever home is, would you go?

Take me.

I sure hope your family is not listening to the podcast to come with, right?

Oh, yes.

You know what? I hope they listen to the this episode. Very, very fascinating. I was like, take me. It was so fast, Reuben. It was like, take me.

I'm curious. I want to know where they're. Where their home.

The best spin in the history of our podcast. Well, you've been with us, and I hope you're curious to learn more because this season is all about how do we learn. But thank you, Reuben. Thank you for being with us. Blessings to you, to your teaching, to everything you do. Thank you for being with us today day. And even though we're so curious, still, the views and opinions expressed on MU talks belong only to our guests and to the hosts, not to Mon University. Sam.