"Where Are You From?" A 3rd Gen POV

Welcome back to another episode of MU Talks back in the studios of Multnomah University. And today we are bringing you something new and someone special to MU Talks at Multnomah University. We actually have a doctorate program, and out of that doctorate program, a Doctor of ministry program. We are bringing you one of our top students. I would say top students. James is already disagreeing with me, but I would say one of our excellent students. And I am very excited for the conversation today. Renee.

That's right. We are thrilled to welcome Pastor James Tam to our studio. James brings a unique perspective to his ministry and theology, having lived in six cities across three continents. Currently, he lives and ministers with his wife and son in the Greater China region. James, thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

Thanks for having me. It's great to be here. Yeah.

Thank you.

So I'm going to talk today, right? Yes.

Please share wherever you like.

Well, there's a lot that I like to talk about, but I'm going to talk about the really obvious thing. Okay. There's this thing that really gets me is that there's so many Chinese in the world, but we don't know each other in a sense that we are so different, yet people think we're just one specific type of people, you know, like just in the US do you know there's like 5 million American Chinese American here? Wow. And half of them are in the Pacific region. Like, half of them lived in the Pacific region. And. And that's just one category. And then you have like 300 thousands of mainland Chinese student that comes every year. Okay. So that's like increasing every year. And then you have, of course, not so much recently, but tourists. That goes up to 2 million tourists. 2 million tourists coming to the United States every year. Wow. And so there's just so many of Chinese, but people don't understand them. And I think that's one of the thing that. That I found out recently. Of the Korean Americans here, 70% are Christians, but yet the biggest Asian ethnic group of American, Asian Americans, the Chinese, 5 million of them. There's only 30% who are Christians. And I think it has to do with how we're connecting with the Chinese that we don't connect. And there's a lot of history that. That is there, that we. We don't know how to minister to them. So that's one thing I'm really passionate about. And the other thing which has to do with my work is in the greater China region of how actually America can be a really powerful source of A way of reaching China from here, right here. And so these two things are my interest, right?

Oh, yes.

So I think to introduce a little bit more about myself, I'm born in Singapore, ethnic Chinese. But the scariest question whenever people ask me is, where are you from? I'm like, are you asking whether, where I'm born, where I spend most of my life? So I'm at the point where I've spent half of my life out of my birth country and half in my birth country. And out is getting a little bit more now I've lived more outside of my birth country. And the fact is I've never lived in my birth country for more than nine years at a go. Every time you hit about that point, I'll leave the country. Not by choice, because my dad will unplug us, right? People say we're gonna move house for my family. It means we're moving to a new country. So ever since I was three years old. So we will live in Taiwan, we go to Singapore, we move to Hong Kong, we go back to Singapore, we go to Australia. That was about nine, nine and a half years in Melbourne, Australia.

Wow.

And that part was because whenever I'll go visit my parents in Singapore, when I leave Australia, I'll tell people I'm going home. And they're like, oh, cool, we're going home and all that. And then when I finish my little holiday in Singapore, I thought, I'm going home to Melbourne. Right. So that's, that's crazy. And so that complexity helps me identify with. Actually, a lot of the second, third generation Chinese were born overseas. There's this term called a third culture, kid, where your culture is so different from your parents. And I'm not going to talk about the entire third culture problem population. There's so many of them, but just the third culture Chinese concept that what they're going through. So a lot of people is like my friends in the United States, third culture Chinese, second, third gen Chinese. I asked them, who do you think you are?

Until like, interesting.

American.

Anybody, actually.

But yeah, American. But. But what does being American mean? Doesn't mean, because technically everybody, except for people who were first here, everybody else came as an immigrant, right? Just how early you came. But for the Chinese family especially, the migrants brought with them certain values that they wanted to guard. You know, that's why there's Chinatowns everywhere, is an unintentional or intentional way of protecting themselves or protecting not just livelihood, but values. And it's funny for me, when I visit these families they are stuck in a time capsule. They are stuck at a time where they left China or wherever they are. So if they left in the 60s, the family functioning is still in the 60s. Whereas if you go back to China is different fundamentally. Yeah. But they've completely. This is how it used to be. This is how it looks like. We're gonna keep it that way. And the kids who are more informed, maybe from technology and all that, he's like, what's going on? We're living in the 60s in this household. But they have to live with it because that's how their family function. And then, you know, the things that they're required to do that I like, nobody in Asia does that anymore, dude. And they still have to do it. You know, it's so crazy. So. So understanding that connection there, that. That even though Asia has come to accept Christianity more because the whole society has grown, the. The American. Chinese culture in America are stuck somewhere in the past. And to. So to connect with them, you have to understand the baggages that's coming there. Okay, right. And one of them is that when you ask them to accept Christianity, like with my grandma, why are you asking me to betray my people? Oh, wow.

It's connected to identity.

Yeah. For them, it's a Western cult, Western religion. You know, I had to go to my grandma says, no, no, no, no, no. Technically, they're Middle Eastern. They're Asians. You know, Jesus is kind of Jew. It's kind of our side of town. But for a lot of Chinese families, it's like, oh, this is Western culture. You're becoming. You're denying your family, you're betraying the family to just, you know, accept Christianity. And so there's a lot of that that's tied in that sometimes we can be not very sensitive towards. We're like, no, no, no. It's just about belief and faith. But like, no, no, no. I'll be kicked out of my clan.

Yes, right. So tremendous repercussions.

Exactly. I'm a traitor. I'm a. So that understanding that sensitivity will be something that's helpful in connecting and sharing the gospel with them. So I think that's just a little piece that I just sort of represent my friends who are going through that.

And do you find that, that. That applies to both a third culture Chinese people who identify as third culture Chinese as well as, you know, first generation immigrants?

I think the first generation is really hard. The third culture are open. They want to accept. They're bound by that. The immigrants are confused. They're just not. They're not sure what you're trying to give me. Are you trying to convert me to a culture or you're just sharing a faith with me, which I think at times Christianity or evangelicals struggle with because we bring along that little thing. And you must understand that some of them went through a period where the early missionaries, bless their heart, they're good, they sacrifice a lot. But they brought with them culture along with religion. And you look at the churches in Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Taiwan, it looked exactly like America. It's like the pews and how it's laid out. It looks exactly white. Fans. I'm like, why does it look like that? Why does it look like that? Because. Not that they wanted to do that, but that's how they understood church should look like that. Right. Put a cross. That's what it's supposed to be. So for them to. To wrestle, the immigrants are wrestling with. I love your culture. I want to accept it, but I don't want to just wholesale take everything that you're giving me, differentiate the third culture. Kids are better because they're born here. They understand the culture. They know they've accepted things that they want to accept. So for them, faith is more of a struggle between real not. And also the impact upon me and my family ties, which can be pretty strong. So that's the challenge there. Yeah, go ahead, Go ahead. And the other piece that I am is directly related to what I'm doing is actually the potential of schools. Okay. Especially tertiary institution in the United States to help the work in where I'm working in. Like, I've shared 300,000 students come here every year. Wow. Right? Thousand. And every year. So that three years you get a million. And so. So they go to our schools intentionally. And, and. And many of them go to our Christian schools. Right. And. And they. That's the first time they come into contact with Christianity. And many of them actually are converted. Then they go home. Do you hear that?

That.

That you are training potential influence of Christianity in a country that doesn't allow it to flourish by itself. We have this space of freedom and teaching them whatever you can teach them and equipping them to go back and do the work. Wow.

I. I actually met somebody from New York that their entire business was to connect Chinese students, but with Ivy League schools in America, So there's this. This is rush. This gold rush. Sure, Right. Another gold rush towards education. And I think it's so powerful here in Portland, we actually have a very strong aviation program. And Mal University actually has an aviation program. I'm very excited about that. And a lot of students from China come and do aviation in America. Throughout all of America. Because the airspace in China is held by the, is held by the government and the military. So unless you want to go in the military, you can't get a license, pilot license. That's my understanding.

Correct.

You can always correct me, especially on these.

Sure, sure. But it's true on what's googled.

But.

And having, having students here is powerful. Do they have to go home? I'm just curious because there was a. There's a little bit misconception of.

Yeah, a lot of people think that they are gonna stay here. Yes. But the fact is that that trend is gone. Okay? The trend is gone because right now the economy in China is growing so fast and the government have given them so much incentive to come home. For example, one of my friend who went back to Shanghai recently, she gets tax break for 10 years by being an international student who comes home to work.

Oh, wow.

Right. That's like tax break.

No way. For 10 years, no taxes, no income taxes if they come back.

Right. So there's stuff like that that's happening. They're trying to, they know the students go overseas, they don't want to come home. So that's one layer. The other part is a lot.

Where do I apply? Do I.

Can I talk to me later.

Okay, James, we'll take this offline. This episode podcast episode 10 years. Okay, wow, good point.

And there's other things. Like the other layer is most of them who can come here. Most of them, not all of them are usually from more well to do family. Okay, so why would you want to stay here and struggle when your clan, your family can. It's like have a good life back home. Right. So why don't you want to go home? You have maybe have a job that's already prepared for you. And in fact a lot of intentionally send them here to learn, to bring whatever they learn here back. Right. So maybe we think about, I just want to be a pilot. After coming to the course, they'll be thinking, let's open an aviation school.

Yes, yes, yes.

If I have enough students, who knows what it is. So, so a lot of them are going back and just to reveal a little bit, I can talk too much about it. But a lot of my initiative in, in China are with these guys. Without them, I have not much to work with.

The ones that come back from US.

Education, who's accepted Christianity, coming back, working in big cities and even becoming professors in schools. And they are influencing people back home, and they are Christian and they are from powerful families. So that's a really good combination. And so to understand the role that tertiary education here in the United States can do, that you can actually be equipping people to reach 1.6 billion people back there. So, so that is crazy because, because it's hard to go in, but they are electing to come out to our, our space to allow us to educate them so to, to be aware of that, that power that we have in influencing that just by, you know, changing the.

Yeah.

Religion, Jesus.

I have a quick question. Not to distract from this. You're the back end of your doctorate program. What's your research on? What are you, what are you focusing on? I'm curious. What is something that, that you're passionate about, that, that you're going to be writing on?

Well, this is, that's a, a good question. Right. I think one of the biggest burden I have is in terms of academics not being offensive, but is really Western. Okay, Right. The theology space in academia, if you Google a book, it's written by people from the West. Right. And even if you Google about ministry in China, Asian theology, the author are not Chinese or Asian. And so I, I want to bring more voice to that space as an Asian who's having the, the opportunity to do my doctorate, to, to write about those stuff from my context. For the people there that, that we, they stopped equating Christianity with being a Western religion, that theology were being dictated of what we should believe by Western people, which is not true. I don't believe in that, that there's an Asian voice in this space, in forming our own understanding, which is not like deviating, but just forming our understanding of what it means to be a Christian in a Asian context, from an Asian mind, Asian culture, Asian upbringing. That's my burden. But exactly what I'm going to be looking at, I don't know yet.

Yeah. So we, we began the conversation by you kind of explaining to us, you know, this is, this is where sometimes Westerners are missing the mark. When we're, when we're meeting people that are from China and then, you know, talking about the importance of them wanting to come here and meet us. So do you have any, do you have any advice to someone who says, yeah, I want to do better. I want to, I want to interact with everybody. Not from my Western context, but, you know, for them. Do you have advice for how to, what to keep in mind what's a different way to approach just getting to know people.

Right?

Yeah. What would you say I think is.

Actually doing something that we're all very good at? Right. I mean, just be human. Right. Don't look at.

Overdo it.

Right. Don't overdo it.

So hard to be human.

Just be human. Connecting relationship is very important. The word is guanxi in Chinese. Where I share with people, even in business, in everything. They want to have that relationship. And it's not just a relationship. They want to know whether I can trust you, which is actually basic humanity. Right. Can I trust you then? After I get to know you, then share with me. But don't be condescending that you don't know this. Let me tell you, let me share with you what I think is cool and good. And why don't you show me what your view about it is? I've not heard of a person that have come to Christ in this context, which they were debated into faith, you know, oh, he gave me all the right rational explanation and that was it. And I believe. No, none. Zero. I interact with some top scholars from top universities in China and I say, how do you come to the faith? And they're like, because somebody became my friend. Wow. You know, became my friend. And I saw. Saw that Jesus they believe was real through how they related to Jesus. They didn't tell me about Jesus. They showed me Jesus interacting with him. And that's a lot of. I think that's. That's the key thing, right? Just be. Be human. Just connect and. But the, the little thing that be aware of that. What I shared earlier on, that when you asking for commitment, it's not as simple for them because it's complicated where the family DY the whole cultural burden. They may be rejecting the culture, but to cut off all ties is a whole other question, you know.

So even the concept of sin is not the same.

Exactly. Exactly.

Or the king or God.

Yeah, I mean, I mean a basic. One of a basic idea of balance, Yin yang idea. In the Chinese mind, there's no good and evil. It's just two sides to a coin. So that is something you say when it is sin, is it bad? You know, is it bad? That's just balance, you know, so that those. But I. It's different, as I said, different groups. The third culture kid would not really have that. But the immigrants and the students will have more of that because that's where they came from. And the big elephant in the room is their cultural background of the communists, communism and The China version of it, China flavor of it, it looks like, and how that impacts them. You know. Yeah.

We, we are using. And I'm, I'm always, I always welcome the opportunity to use mutox as a platform. This country has gone through a really hard time in the way that we've approached China in the last few years and, and the way that, that you know, the stereotypical thing, you know, raised. And I, I'm so thankful that you're here to speak to us and really just remind us of the beauty of this place called China. And how diverse.

Yes.

And how massive and how beautiful and wonderful the people are that you meet on the street. You know, you travel to China, it's a different world. And I just, I want to give you an opportunity to use this microphone, this platform, this, this, this table. Actually, I like the table. The concept of table to, to speak that might actually have reservations to engage people from, from inland China, to engage people from the larger China region. And now they're working through another stereotype, another barrier through that.

Sure. First of all, we don't all know kung fu. Or do we?

You know, but, but you can't risk though, because you don't know who. You don't know who does.

Right. I embrace the cliche because I actually know and I learned it from young. You see?

You see? See, that's a problem.

Right? That's a problem.

Oh, that's really cool.

But the thing is kung fu, them, we. We learned to not beat people up. Okay, okay. Just to defend. I'm just saying if there's a lot of stereotype, even for me, what I've shared, I feel like it's over simplification of China. Like now just being fully focused on the ministry to in Greater China region. I actually had to print out a map of China and put on my wall. And we know China. You know, I like, I have a phone call with people from different part of China and I don't get the accent because they will have accents and they'll have their local slang of saying things. And I'd be like, what does it mean? I'm Chinese.

Right.

So don't be too stressed. If you don't understand, that's fine. But just like learn. You know, I think everybody likes talking about their own culture, you know, And I'll go like, what is that slang? What does it mean? And they say, and I use. Start using it just to, you know. And they're like, oh, you're using my slang. Yeah, I think. Don't be Too sensitive about the cultural appropriation thing. I think Chinese people love it. Like if you wear, wear like a Chinese, are we like awesome? You know, we're not like, oh, did you steal my culture? And we're like share the culture. In fact, in china there's like 30 over people groups. They're Chinese, who's blonde and blue eyeing. I went to a tribe and these are the descendants of the Roman soldiers. And there are people who, who, you look at them, they look like Italians. And if you look at, look at, look like Middle Eastern people, the people who look exactly like Koreans. That thing don't stress about not being able to tell between a Japanese, a Korean and a Chinese.

You heard it first on Mu talks.

James gave you permission, like for me, like because maybe of my looks, but. And, and I do have a little bit of Korean blood. So when I take Korean airline, they think I'm Korean. When I take Japanese air, which I took recently, they think I'm Japanese, and then I take Chinese airline. Don't get too stressed.

It's not just us.

We can't tell ourselves, right? Just because it's so mixed, right? There's so many, the Chinese people, this majority are the Han people. But the intermarrying has been happening for thousands of years. So the, it's really, you know, just, just, just be willing to work through the different stereotypes and all that. Just, just try to take it off your mind that all of them are communists, all of them believe in a certain thing. Come on, man. Like there's 1.6 billion of them, right? You in a school, a few hundred people, you can you find two people who believe the same thing even they're from the same school. You're from the same town. You can, right? So Don, don't feel that, you know, they're all different. As I said, they're humans. Every single one of them are humans. And they'll all be different. Get to know them. And if it didn't work with one, just move on to the next one, right? So it's cool. It's all right.

So you, you have heard James give you permission to not be too stressed about it. But I would like to say don't be too confident about it. You know, don't go in there and try to label people because I've seen, yeah, be humble. Like, you know, you might not get it. So don't be stressed. But you might not get it because you're trying. So that's a big problem.

You just be sincerely trying. Don't go like, oh, man, you're Chinese. I really love sushi. Trying too hard. Dude, just chill. Yeah.

Well, James, we could. We could talk so much about this. There's so much richness in that entire place and just the realization 5 million Chinese Americans in America is such a strong thing to remember, and. And I'm very thankful there. There are quite a few Asian American partnerships and organizations that are working very hard because America is fighting a black and white war, and they're really not thinking of so many other voices that could come to the table. So I'm excited for your voice, but now we actually get a chance to get to know you.

Oh, man.

You the doctoral, you know, candidate. Not you, the. The person that is actually conquering China, going past the wall, but rather just who is James? So. All right, I'll let Renee start with the first question and we get to know you a little bit.

James, what would you sing at karaoke night?

You're not trying hard. You're not trying hard.

Many things. Okay. I. I. Karaoke is my life. I used to go, like, every weekend, so.

Okay, so what's your go to?

I mean, there's a lot of Chinese songs that I sing. Okay. But I love Bon Jovi, so I was seeing some Bon Jovi.

I would pay money to see that.

Yeah.

Money to see James.

I didn't lose heart because of Jon Jovi. Okay, great.

Do you have a secret talent?

Many, but I can't drink.

Many.

But their secret.

I can drink a whole huge bottle of coke in one breath.

What?

I've done it many times.

Was this a dare?

Yeah. You started as a dare and became a talent. One breath.

Should we make a promise to our audience that we're gonna.

We're gonna.

Before the.

Okay, so one thing. As I've gotten to know James, I found out he loves coffee, and he's been trying many, many coffees here. Here in Portland. So what is your favorite all time coffee roaster in Portland? If it's somewhere else, it's fine. Doesn't have to be Portland.

You can't make it.

I have one that's both in Portland and Melbourne. See, these two cities are like sister cities.

Okay.

It's called Proud Mary. It's really good. If you want to be Australia. Not Australia.

Proud Mary.

Proud Mary.

You want to be Melbournian. You go to Proud Mary and you order a magic. They will think your family because you ordered it.

Because I'm just saying magic.

So it's not on the menu.

I want it is, but nobody.

But nobody I don't know what it is.

What's the terminology? Do you just say, I want to match?

Okay.

I'm walking there and be like, I want magic, right?

I want a magic the eye will.

Do you love or hate roller coasters?

Oh.

Oh, that's hard. You see, I. I used to love, but I haven't been on it for a while, so I may not like it as much now.

That's a good answer. That's a good answer.

Do you have a favorite fast food chain?

Ooh, this is like blasphemy. I love in and out. Oh, you're not gonna survive the rest of the day. In and out.

What was your first job?

My. Oh, like my very, very first, very first job. It was a pizza delivery.

Pizza delivery.

Because I wanted to work in the kitchen. And I went to approach the restaurant owner. She's like, no, you're not Italian. It was a legit Italian owned restaurant.

You can't be our face.

I want to be. I want to be just in the kitchen, like KitchenAid. And she's like, no, no, not good enough. So I delivered pizza for. For six months. And then she adopted me. No way. I became Italian.

So did you get to go into the kitchen?

I did. I worked there for two years.

In the kitchen. In the kitchen, making pizzas.

Let all the secrets. I'm not going to tell you the secrets.

Pasta and everything.

The mama secret.

Oh, the sauces.

The sauces.

So you make pizza at home?

I do. That's how I got my wife. You know, I made pizza.

It was worth delivering.

You made it? I made it with love. Oh, wow.

Wow. Which is the best ice cream flavor?

Rocky road.

Just mic drops, no discussions.

Wow, that was really good. If you could go anywhere. Now you've seen a good part of the world. If you could go anywhere, where would you go?

I really want to visit Sao Paulo. Okay. I really. I've been wanting to go there for a while. I have two friends who are there now. Sao Paulo, Brazil. I want to go.

Okay. Well, at the end of all of our rapid fires, we come around to these three questions.

Oh, big ones.

Because everyone who comes into this space with us, we know that if nothing else, we may be from different countries. We value education, and that's why we're here. That's why we are at Multnomah either as a student or as a place where we serve God and serve our students. So we have these three questions that we'd like to offer to you. Okay, first, please tell us about a time in your educational journey that sticks with you, a memory that you have.

Oh, I can link up so many answers. I was in a church school when I was in third grade. There was three students in the class. And my teacher, she's American, Japanese and she, for art class took us to the back of the church. We were on a little slope and you could see this ocean from there. And she taught us art there. Outside, Outside. And that just stuck with me as that's the epitome of education. Like that's how you help me love art. Okay. Being in art.

Yeah.

Doing art. Yeah.

I. I think there should be some form of punishment if you're next to an ocean. To go into a classroom.

Exactly. Or a sunny day in. In Portland and you have to be indoors. Hey. Yes.

If you could change one thing about education anywhere, what would it be?

Oh, wow.

It could be here. It can be in your context. Whatever you.

I think it's just the one thing I experienced this week is really good sitting how you're seated in the classroom. But just the process of learning to not be just one way information, but to. To look. Sometimes not sometimes just look at applying it to real life. Like one of the biggest question growing up, I'm really good at math. Such a cliche, right? Kung fu math. But like you never understood why you needed to learn it. Like, why am I learning mathematics? Right. Because it's useful in life to count money. I just, you know, like, why do you need it? So the why to be a piece of education. Whatever thing you're introducing, how does it apply to real life? That's my thing.

Yeah, yeah. What if they had taught you math by the ocean? No, no. Wouldn't have been enough. Okay, last question. What is something that you've either learned recently or you are currently learning this.

This. Two weeks in intensive. My brain's fried and still being fried. But just the biggest thing for me right. From recent learning is the beauty of the law. Right. The beauty of the law that we know is beautiful. You've even heard it being the law of God.

Right.

The law of God by the law, God, Deuteronomy. All right. Like that. To read deeper into it, to see God's love and character behind it by actually sometimes not just not being lazy. Because we read a text and we go, oh, that's what it says. Right. Then we hate it because we didn't read it. But to really read it relationally read it with God really, as I'm reading about God, to go deep into it. That's one of the biggest thing this week these two weeks for me.

James, we are so thankful that you stopped by MU Talks. We wish you blessing in your educational journey and in you rarely meet somebody that has a heart as big as a continent and as a big as a country and we have had a blessing to sit down with you and and just get a little bit of of the the breadth and the width and the greatness of the heart that you have for this for for your country for home. Thank you whatever home is whatever that means but thank you for coming. Thank you for being with us. We'd love to have you back here when you come back hopefully to to Multoma so we can get an update and thank you for being with us. Renee, thank you again for introducing another wonderful guest on MU Talks. And I know you hear me say this all the time time but the views and opinions expressed on MU Talks belong to the ones that are on MU talks not to Mono University.