006 MU Talks With Dr. Rebekah Josberger - the role and beauty of the Torah

Oh, yeah, we're back.

You know what time it is?

Mu Talks. Everybody's.

I hear that heartbeat.

I know. I want to sing.

Oh, I don't want to sing.

Nobody wants me to sing.

How do you guys do this?

So excited for a new episode of Mu Talks.

This is.

This is quite exciting.

I can't wait to go off today. Oh, I'm gonna go off. The hammer is here.

So.

So, Dr. Hildebrand, please introduce our guest.

Yeah. Our esteemed colleague.

Do.

Rebecca Josberger. Okay. Professor of.

Becky.

Yeah.

Professor of Old Testament and Hebrew language, I think.

Yeah. Could there be something better? No, no. My dad was a Hebrew professor. Loved it. Good guy.

Okay. So I am personally very excited about our discussion today for a lot of reasons, but, Rob, help us get to know our guest.

Okay.

But before we're gonna hit.

Okay. Let's ask you some questions. Born where?

St. Johnsbury, Vermont.

Favorite toy growing up?

Ooh. I had one baseball mitt.

Ooh, good for you. Do you play the sports?

Yeah.

You like the sports? Baseball is favorite.

Yes. I played softball because I wasn't brave enough to say, I got to go on the boys team. I now read stories of girls who did that and wish I had, but.

I was an athlete, too, so. Not that you care. I don't care.

I do care.

Of course you care.

Testament scholar. I'm like the whole package.

Oh, wow. I wasn't going that far, but we.

Didn'T even start yet, and we have the fullest.

So you have a family?

I do.

One husband.

One husband.

Three children.

Four. Yeah, four.

I'll just hit the table.

Yeah.

I shouldn't. I should have known that.

That's okay. No, I. Jim is. Oh, my gosh. Don't even. Let me get started. He is my best friend in the entire world. I met him when I was 15, and we have been together for 30 years.

When you're 15?

Yep.

That's cool.

Yeah.

Good looking dude.

Yeah, he is. He was an Olympic time trialist, and he was a swimmer, and he was the fastest on the swim team, and I was the slowest, so he passed me more than he passed anyone else, so I guess I won that one. Sounds great.

That's the most beautiful story ever.

Oldest is how old? Youngest is how old.

My oldest is 23, and she is newly married and lives here in Portland as a worship pastor at Mosaic Church.

Yeah.

Yeah. Maya.

Yeah.

And then Amanda is 21. She's coming home for spring break next week. She's a junior at letourneur University, studying engineering. Yeah. Some other school.

Not Moldova.

No. And then I have a 14 year old who is my little clone. So we've always joked that she's going to someday run a prison, either from the inside or the out, we're not sure. But she is a tough one. And she's tough in the best way. I love tough. That's my positive language. She's just awesome. And then I have a 12 year old boy, he'll be 12 next week, named Haven, who loves me, I think.

In this season of my life. I love hearing parents talk about their kids introducing themselves. I like that warden kind of like they're going to run a prison.

She's just really strong and thoughtful and watching God grab her heart and turn it toward him is just unbelievable. She's going to be unshakable.

So love that.

Why'd you choose the Old Testament as an area of study?

I really, really like stories and I really like language and I really like history. And surprisingly, I love old things. I've always loved old things. So like the older the better. Like intertestamental. Give me a break. That's boring. Prophets a little bit too new. Really like old stuff. So always have.

Old Testament's the best.

Yeah. And my parents teach teas that when I was little, I was learning how to read and my. I asked my mom for the real Bible, like not this one, but the real one. And she said no one could read it anymore. And apparently you don't tell Becky. No.

The challenge was thrown.

Thank you, mom.

The gauntlet was. Yeah, thank you, mom.

I don't of course remember that, but yeah.

Yes. Oh, that's exciting. So in. I'm going straight into it because otherwise.

I'll talk forever about other stuff.

Honestly, that's why we want to have you here, because we want to have a very, very like long lasting show. And so like as many, as many things as. As you want. But in one of our four, like first shows, one of our first episodes, we open it up like we're doing right now with Facebook Live. People can actually ask us questions. Oh, cool. And so, and one of the, one of the first questions that came our way had to do with like, why are people not using the Old Testament anymore and why are they not like connected to the Old Testament anymore? And more and more churches are going that direction. So, you know, immediately Rob and I were like, we're gonna bring out the hammer of God. Like, like God's hammer.

I mean, I just call it the hammer.

Hammer of God now.

Okay.

I think now I'm in the camp of the Assyrians and the Babylonians because.

I very much love and respect the brilliancy of your scholarly work and your work here at Multnomah, and you're an educator.

But you have a book that came out, a big, big, famous book. A big.

Yes.

People are talking about it.

Yeah.

A Hebrew grammar, folks.

Yes.

Yes.

My favorite story is what doctor Cuts when he went and it was in a coffee place, and, you know, the person asked like, hey, are you working on a book?

Yeah.

And, you know, it's like, what book?

He's like, was it a Hebrew grammar? What kind of coffee would you like?

What kind of coffee do you want? Like, I don't.

Thank you.

In case people don't know. A Hebrew grammar is a book that helps you learn Hebrew. So it's not even descriptive. It's just. It's just a learning.

I was thinking about writing one myself other day.

Yeah.

Hebrew grammar. And why I really, really liked us having here and talk about this is I actually grew up in a church that for 11 years. So a big chunk of my childhood, the pastor that only. So our. Our pastor only came to the pulpit with the New Testament. He has actually never open the Old Testament. It's never used, it never quoted, never nothing.

Yep.

Now, many years later, Right. I am. I've read it for myself many times. I've read the scripture cover to cover many times. And I. I think I've missed a lot from. From growing up and really missing a massive portion of that. But that. That's just, you know, my main. Just jumping straight into it. But I want us to have a conversation and really for you to educate us even further and also with anybody on Facebook Live. And I think Facebook Live stopped very quick. Froze on us. I hope people can still hear us.

If you hear us, I can see it.

You can still hear you. Okay. So if. If people have questions about this, but let's. Let's open up a conversation about the Old Testament, the role of it, how you see it. You fell in love with it, and that's why I really love it.

Well, the first, there's. There's two things that come to mind. The first, you asked, like, why the Old Testament? And I gave the, you know, simple answer. But there's a deeper answer for me when I close my eyes. Those of you on Facebook Live. I'm editing. So here's. Here's the background with that. When I was a junior in high school, I applied for a scholarship to study overseas as an Exchange student, and I was accepted and I went over and studied in Germany, and I was there for about a year. And it was the best, one of the best experiences of my life. It was fantastic. I'm still real close with the family, et cetera, et cetera. Everything about it was amazing. But it took me six months to find an evangelical church. And even once I found one, there were language barriers. Of course, I didn't speak any German when I left, and I mean, when I went there. And I was also 18, 17 going on 18, turned 18 while I was there, and there were cultural differences. And of course, the reason the age is kind of significant, not just are you figuring out who you are and what you believe, but also legally, that changes restrictions in different countries. You can drink in some countries, you can't in others. And out of my desperate desire, A, not to get in trouble and B, just to be good enough to please God, to, you know, whatever it was to be a Christian, I didn't know how to adjust when my faith was outside of America and the rules were different. What was God requiring of me? And so you're taught all through Sunday school that you go to the Old Testament, or, I'm sorry now, that's what I teach people, that you go to the Bible. And I'd go to the Bible and I would come up empty, and I would, you know a story of a fish that swallowed a man, like, what does that have to do with me? Or, you know, building a parapet around your roof. What does that have to do with me? Or, you know, for. I know the plans I have for you. Good. But can you tell them to me, like, what am I supposed to be doing? And so I was very hungry. In fact, probably the deepest spiritual hunger I've ever had. But it went unanswered for a year, and I was just desperate. When I got back to the States, I had already decided to go off to Taylor University for college. And I told my parents that that was my first choice school, except I was kind of concerned because they taught Bible and I wanted to do something academic. Oh, there you go. Yeah, because I had a brain and wanted to use it for God, you know. So another story there, of course, but about my third week of class in an Old Testament survey course, the Past, the professor was talking about covenant, and he was talking about the background in the ancient Near Eastern world and how this was a form of communication they understood and what it meant. And then he said, so God used something they understood, and these were the parameters. So that they could understand in a. In a very humble, simple, human form, something he wanted to convey about himself, and that is that he's serious, he means business, that he'll stand in our behalf, that a promise is a promise, and all the things that go along with covenant. And for the first time in, I don't know, like, a year and a half, suddenly I felt that there was some accessibility to the scriptures. Because if a God cared enough to reach into an ancient culture and adopt something that those people would understand to tell them about himself, then he understood the gap between me and him, and he understood the gap between me and the Old Testament. And from that point on, I just. I could never get enough. Never get enough. So I. Yeah, that's why, specifically, the Old Testament. The second thing I thought of you mentioned earlier. I think you were going to read a question or something. You had one. I don't even know if you mentioned it on this podcast.

Are we talking about. So there's. In fact, there's. And again, not trying to diss anyone out there in the world, but there's like a book that came out saying, hey, Christians got to unhitch from the Old Testament, you know, that people can understand the Old Testament. And if we're somehow presenting ourselves poorly, if we only show that. And it's kind of just Jesus, almost like this edited, narrow slice of.

You just went everywhere. I'm afraid of.

Okay.

No, that's okay.

What do you think of that?

What do you.

What do you like? Does that seem like a good thought? Are they right?

Oh, my gosh.

Okay, here's the deal. This is why I'm terrified of podcast, video, anything but the classroom, because I speak in hyperbole and I get really passionate about things. So go for it. Go ahead.

The Internet gives you permission.

I did not read all of the unhitched things. I did not read all of the responses to them on Facebook. I listened to my students and I just let them take it. Hey, since we're going there, I'll say I also don't read any of the things that talk about what a woman should or shouldn't do in ministry, because. Give me a break. If you're a woman, answer the question for yourself. Shut up and do it anyway. If you're not a woman, shut up and let them do it anyway. Sorry, sorry. I told you I'd go there anyway. Yeah, unhitched. Gosh, of course. I don't think we can understand the New Testament as well. Wow. Here's another thing that I was afraid I would say, do you know how hard it is to sit in a pulpit and listen to pastors who know one third of the scripture?

Yeah.

And they're supposed to be teaching you and mentoring you and walking, and you're just thinking, wow, that was a great message. And it was true, but it wasn't. It was a third of the truth. Like, it's so much richer and deeper. So. And then when I do hear people preach from the Old Testament, oh, usually I think maybe I agree with unhitched, because if you're going to treat it that poorly, maybe we don't want to hear from it. Oh, can you tell how scared I am right now? So, yeah, it's just hard. And the question that I was alluding to before, that was all the places I didn't want to go. Yeah, yeah, I went there. I'm sorry. The question that I was alluding to, you said, you asked, why don't people use the Old Testament more? Is that the question you brought up before? Why don't people use the Old Testament more? Honestly, there's a lot of reasons, but I think one of them is scholarship. We have made it so complicated and so difficult and stripped almost all common sense out of it and exaggerated the barriers instead of just acknowledging them. One of the things I do in the classroom is try to get the students to know that, like, for example, narratives, stories. We have one of the most literate cultures ever in the history of the world. I mean, if you aren't a good reader, at least you go to movies all the time and you can follow a plot from beginning to end. These are great authors, and you can understand them. When you read, you might be confused and have questions, and the trick is learning the right kinds of questions. But we have done this stuff, and it's not just Bible code. Kind of. If you're not familiar with Bible code, good. But anyway, we've done this stuff where, like, you have one word and you have to track it all the way through. And if. If it was, you know, this word has this magic meaning that no one knew. And it also occurs in these three places. And somehow, if you don't know all that, you can't understand this passage. And I'm going to tell you something brand new. I remember we leaving church one day and my husband looked at me and said, that was a great sermon on Ruth, but I would never have been able to get there by myself. I don't even know why I try. And I thought I told him, well, it was a great sermon. But it wasn't in Ruth. Like, the topic was Ruth, but what he said wasn't, so you didn't miss anything. Stop beating yourself up and open up your Bible and keep trying.

This guy's trying to sound smart by bringing out something new.

Yeah, or it's usually not just the pastors. It's usually they're getting it from the scholars or the books or.

Yeah, some popular book.

Yeah. Because that's their source.

A little bit of shade at the popular books.

Sorry. Yep. Casting shade or throwing shade.

Or throwing shade.

I think casting shade is what Kutz calls it.

Yes.

That works.

Oh, man. Well, maybe this is a good time to tell you two things. One is we. We're not live anymore, so you don't have to worry about that. The second one is that we. The views and opinions expressed on MU talks are no way affiliated with university.

Three people talk. Three friends talking.

And.

Is that a reprimand?

No, not at all.

No.

I actually want to unleash you on this even more because everything you just said and I. The only thing that I regret is that you said sorry is because there was nothing to say sorry about. I echo And I agree 150% to the fact that some of the people that preach from the Old Testament and they do it sometimes, like, it's like, hip. Let me show you a new thing. Are doing such a disservice to it. I heard. I heard Carl, Dr. Kut say something just in passing in the. You know, as we're talking at the lunchtime. He was like, I wish some people would just not teach from that, but just. They would preach. And I was like. It hit that mark of like, yeah, some people are trying to teach the Old Testament from the pulpit, but you're doing a massive disservice to it. And then people are moving away saying, I didn't. What.

How did they find that? I could never have found that on my own. Well, it's because it's not in there.

Right.

So it's okay that you didn't find it.

There's so many good things you can just read in the Bible, and Lord knows most of us need to work on them. You don't have to go finding some obscure thing. You know, there's lots of stuff we need anyways.

Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. Right.

So we are almost past the middle point of this. Oh, I know. Can you imagine? So, because we're. We're trying to keep them close to, like, 30 minutes. But I did want us to land this conversation around Torah.

Hi.

Paper When I. When I saw. When I saw Becky, I said, we're going to tour it up.

Right.

You had to. You had to repeat that, didn't you?

I had to do it. And she didn't seem amused. I was like. I was so excited about that.

That was pretty funny.

Let's store that up.

Right?

Yeah. But educate us a little bit about not just Torah, but about your love for it and how. Like, how and why.

Okay. Well, the kind of Torah that I'm usually talking about, it can mean the first five books of the Bible. But you. The way I usually talk about it is specifically the pieces that are. We call biblical law. So, like the Ten Commandments and every. If an ox gores your neighbor's ox kind of stuff, the ones that we don't understand that well, or if we're really honest, usually we would say we don't even really need that part of the scripture anymore. Students don't usually come right out and say that in the classroom until I poke the bear a long time. But Jesus fulfilled it, and it doesn't apply to us in their minds, and they're grateful that it doesn't. And so that's one part of the Bible that we could maybe do without. And honestly, I felt the exact same way. I love old things, so I always loved the Pentateuch best, and I just kind of tolerated Torah, the biblical law parts. And then one day I was in class with my PhD advisor, Dr. Fatr Daniel Block, and he was reading from the Scriptures. Psalm 19, Psalm 119, Deuteronomy 4. And if you've been in my classes, you've heard them all read back to you. But how the biblical authors loved Torah and they craved it like it's sweeter than honey, and it revives the soul and, you know, teach it to me, help it keep me from error. And Deuteronomy 4, which is probably my favorite passage in the Scriptures, that and a verse in Ecclesiastes that says, God is in heaven as man is on earth. Boom. Yeah. But anyway. But Deuteronomy 4 is. It talks about how the other nations will look at Israel and because of their law, they'll say, you know, what other nation has a God so near them? So it's relational and it's evangelistic, and it's beautiful. So I was looking at the Bible that was saying one thing about Torah, and I was feeling what everybody else tends to feel about it in these days. I'm glad it doesn't apply to me, and it doesn't make Any sense. And I couldn't follow it if I wanted to. And there was a disconnect. And usually if Scripture says one thing and I feel another, I go ahead and let scripture lead. I'm wrong. And so, man, there's so many things but here, let's get to the. We only have a few minutes. So if you understand the culture of the ancient Near Eastern world, and by that I don't mean that you have to understand every practice or ritual that they did, if you understand that it's a story culture and that it would be what we call probably a high ambiguity culture, they told things through illustrations and pictures. God comes right out and tells us who he is. He is loving and patient and long suffering and all of these pieces. He tells us who he is, but we're really, really fragile. And well, I tell my students, we're thick headed, we don't get it very. And so he goes and he shows them pictures. And what I believe Torah is, is pictures of God's righteousness acted out by broken humans in a broken world. But we also try to imagine in our minds as Christians in the 21st century that Torah is. It reflects like perfection. It reflects. If it's, if it's supposed to reflect God's commandments, then it should be perfect. You know, why would it talk about slavery, why would it talk about divorce? Why would it. All of these things. And what we forget is that that's the setting into which Torah is given. And so what God does is he doesn't say, hey, look, you're broken, so you can't reflect me in this world. He says, hey, look, your world is broken. So if you're going to reflect me, you have to do so in a context that you have. This is like you said, the poor will always be among us. And so then he tells them, what does it look like to. To walk righteously in the midst of really broken situations. And in the class I'm usually able now to show students, you know, how does he do that? Paul gives us a great example. He says in the New Testament somewhere he says, don't muzzle the ox when it's working. And if we were interpreting that from the pulpit today, we would say, look, animal rights, because it's surface level. But Paul knows what's going on. It is a story, it is an illustration. It is a picture of someone who is allowed to benefit from their labor or to benefit while they're laboring. He explains this all to us. And I believe the reason that an ox is chosen is because if an ox can benefit from his work, can a servant? Well, sure. So extreme examples are given. We look at law as totally sporadic and ambiguous and crazy and just scattered. But all over the ancient Near Eastern world, you see law that looks the same way all over the place. Because they're picking extreme examples from which the judges could then extrapolate. What does it look like to be fair in the economy? What does it look like to take care of someone who has lesser? What does it look like to use your authority? Well, and the most important piece of this. I think my brain's going in two directions at once. Sorry. I think the most important piece of this is the purpose for which the law was given. We tend to believe that it was given to clean us up so that God could dwell in our midst. But he dwelt in their midst and they were filthy. They never cleaned up their act. We don't clean up our act. We try. We work at it. Some of us harder than others, but we try. And I just want to know. I know there's some people who hold that view, so it makes me a little bit uncomfortable, but. And what theology is man even capable of that we know? God knew from the beginning he didn't have to try it and see that it failed. It's not to clean us up. It is so that we can figure out who he is by participating in his character. So he tells us right there in Deuteronomy 10, go take care of the widows and orphans, because I, the Lord your God, take care of widows and orphans. Like, go do what I do so that you can figure out how much I care about you, how I use my authority toward you. If we want to know who God is in his character, I can't think of any place better to study than Deuteronomy to understand what his relationship to us is, as he's asking us to act that out to someone else so that we get it. And then the side advantages when you're acting like God and someone who doesn't look at God sees you, they get to see a glimpse of God. But that's as nice as that is, that's easier for us as Christians to accept, I think, because it's supposed to be other oriented. But all of the Old Testament and the New Testament is teaching us that no God cares about a relationship with us too. It is enough that we can just act like him so that we get to see who he is, so that we can be wowed by him. And. And that's figuring out what Each of the laws, how that applies is actually not that hard. But it's not a 20 minute conversation.

I love about the Old Testament and I love, like I took a New Testament masters because I wanted to balance myself out because I love the Old Testament so much. I love the nuance and I love. You read the stories and God does something and then he does something and you're like, oh, I didn't expect him to do that. You know, like. And it just seems so rich and so beautiful. And I think our human mind sometimes, you know, we want to have a theology and so we read a verse and we say, okay, well this is God. And then you read a story and it's not quite.

Yeah, doesn't quite fit in.

And either you can just be like, you just kind of, I don't know, you can whatever, default on that, or you can wrestle with it and try to.

Yep.

And so that it just, to me, it creates such a beautiful picture.

Well, and I don't know how much time we have, but that reminds me of again, of course, Deuteronomy. I get teased about this all the time, but what a great book. But when it talks about idolatry, it talks about two things. It talks about not serving other gods, but it also talks about not trying to find an image that encapsulates God because he's not like anything on earth. And people today, when we talk about idolatry, I hear a lot of things about, oh, you know, social media has become my idol or money's become my idol. I honestly don't think that's where we, as the church struggle in Western American context. We don't think Facebook is a God. We might give too much attention to it, but we don't. But what we do is we try to find an image or a theology or an explanation that captures God and puts him in a box. And then we critique that box, but that's another issue. But yeah, we're trying to have him conform to something we can understand. And the irony of it is that he is absolutely impossible for us to understand. And yet again and again throughout history, he humbled himself and so that he could convey himself in our broken images so we could grasp just a link, a glimpse. He tells us he's a father. Well, fathers aren't perfect. He tells us, you know, that he's a king. Well, kings aren't perfect. He comes and lives among us, both in the tabernacle and in the manger and then the New Testament, over and over, he humbles himself. So that we could catch just a glimpse. And then we take that glimpse and we try to conform it to something we'll understand better. And I. I think that's our biggest struggle with idolatry today is. Yeah. Putting God in some kind of box and forcing him to fit there.

I wish we had four hours to talk about this. And I also think this is the quiet we've been on our show so far.

Are you calling me boring again?

Actually captivating. So I'm gonna going to tell you something that.

Okay.

That you're finding out on MU talks, which is really interesting.

Oh.

So I got a chance to be on a committee that, that listened to. To your tenure presentation. Right. By the way, informing people that Dr. Josberger is a tenure professor here. So congratulations. Whatever you want to do, you can't. You can't. Whatever you want to do, you can't. So. But I got a chance to listen to you speak about your journey and about your appreciation for Old Testament and Torah and all that. And I remember specifically, even though I am a scholar of the Bible. Right.

Does that include the Old Testament interview?

Yes.

I'm just checking. I'm sorry.

Yeah, that's why I mentioned that the heavy Bible. I don't buy my Bible from the dollar store that only has the. A few books and songs. But what. What I remember specifically thinking saying, oh, you know what? I'm now passionate about getting back into it, into actually studying more. I am missing so much. I am actually missing so much by not giving proper attention to some of those passages. And he was in the most interesting place ever of a committee of hearing you talk about it. So I just wanted to give you that of how I think these conversations are life giving. And it's also one of the purposes of MU talks, to have meaningful conversations. That's all it is at the end of it.

And by the way, like, not to get all self congratulatory, but Multnomah, our Hebrew program is. Is pretty good. Like it's pretty recognized. You guys do cool stuff.

We do great stuff. I'm so proud of us.

Widely recognized. Again, not to be too self congratulatory but. But if you're interested in Hebrew or Bible scholarship, this would be a good.

Place Hebrew to get to the Old Testament. It's not Hebrew for the sake of Hebrew. Sorry, I just have to throw that in.

I like that. I like that. Now I. I'm going to be unapologetic about doing some promotion here.

Okay.

And first thing I want to say is that Dr. Becky Josberger has seven courses in Monoma plus.

Oh, yeah.

So if you go. If. Including what is Torah?

Yeah.

So what is Torah? And six other very, very good courses. So if you go to monomaplus.com actually on the main page, on the Home page of monomaplus.com Dr. Becky is right there waiting for you. The courses are $10.

Yeah.

Now, don't be fooled. They're not $10 because they're cheap, but because we wanted to make them accessible and affordable. They are way more than $10. But if you're interested in continuing this conversation, that there's seven courses over there, and I'm very thankful for your presence with that.

Good. Thanks. Any.

Any closing remarks for us?

I don't have short closing remarks, so it doesn't matter.

Doesn't matter.

Are you sure?

Yes, I am sure.

Okay. I have one thing, but you can cut it if you want to cut it.

We don't.

You were talking about how there's like this depth of the Scriptures and this image keeps coming to mind over and over. And I share it often in my classes, but one of the students sometimes know that they cannot run to the New Testament too fast in my class, because I know don't just jump to Jesus. Don't just jump to Jesus. And they sometimes think I don't even like Jesus, which, by the way, I love Jesus.

Oh, thank you.

If Torah is God's character lived out in an imperfect form, Jesus is God's character lived out in God. I mean, he's awesome. So anyway, but they'll know that. And one of the reasons that I'm so such a stickler about that, and I talked earlier about how, you know, you have a good message from the New Testament, but it's so light if it's lacking the Old Testament. So one great example of this is Isaiah 40. In Isaiah 40, you have that pass that says, make way. Prepare the way in the wilderness. And everyone in class, their brains just jump right to John the Baptist. Thank you. I was thinking Elijah, and I knew that was the wrong certified. But yeah, John the Baptist right there. And then I've lost them for the rest of the chapter. And I like to make them acknowledge that only takes two seconds. And then tell them to stop and tell me now, what do you know when you're going to the New Testament with this? What do you know? And they're like, nothing. It's John the Baptist. You know, nothing. Well, I mean, he was the forerunner, whatever. Okay, you're right. You know nothing. And so Then we walk through Isaiah 40. And Isaiah 40 is written from the perspective of the exile has already happened, and the people are in anguish. And there's a very firm break between chapters 39 and 40. In 39, it's narrative, and it's going on. And then all of a sudden, 40, it's comfort, comfort my people. And it's because they've already been ripped away from their homeland, sent into exile. You know, this is the. All the horrors of the Old Testament, curses are coming into light. And God says in that passage through Isaiah, make way. Prepare the way of the Lord. Let the mountains be leveled and the valleys rise up. And I asked them, why. Why such dramatic language? And they say, oh, because it's a picture of God coming down to earth. And so get ready. And I said, do you understand that? At the point of their deepest, deepest, deepest pain, he says, I have comfort. I'm gonna bring myself. It's not the same comfort he gives in every other book or every other place where he says, there'll be a remnant. There'll be a little bit left over. There'll be. Because that's an amazing comfort and a promise he gives. Or I'll bring you back to the land or all these things for them. He's like, no, in this moment, when it's darkest, here's my comfort. I'm going to show up. And I picture it like when you're like a little kid and you got chills.

Yeah.

Now go to the New Testament. Now go to John the Baptist when he says this. And now, I mean, you knew the theology before, but those readers were hearing, I'm the solution, and the solution is myself. And I'm. And I picture this not just in sacrifice. I picture this like when you're a little kid and. And you're sick and your mom's at work, and, man, she just walks in that door and everything's better. She doesn't even have to bring you soup yet, you know, she just. And this is the picture that Isaiah 40 is bringing. And we skip all of that when we just say John the Baptist. And what I want students to do is grab all of that, see the picture, it's right there, and then take it and figure out what Jesus is telling them in the New Testament. It's just gorgeous. So.

Oh, awesome.

Oh, can.

We can't beat that.

You cannot beat that. You cannot beat that.

God wrote it.

Play the track. We can't put our. Our music on that.

Oh, it's been good. I don't know if I read the Old Testament. Oh, we already said it. That's just us. It's not. No. I mean, it kind of is, though.

The most brief version of.

Yeah.

Thank you for being with us.

Us.

See you on our next show. And thank you.

Bye.