010 MU Talks: Missions In the age of COVID-19 with Dr. Greg Burch

Foreign.

Well, here we are again, another episode of MU Talks. Welcome to MU Talks, Reverend Dr. Robert J. Hildebrand.

And that's right.

I. Yeah. Well, now here I am. I am the worst about doing, like, sign language here over a podcast, but I'm getting ready to put my graduation, my doctoral regalia on just for the Facebook crowd.

Oh, my goodness.

That would be great. Hey, Rob, can you introduce. Can you please introduce our guest speaker today, our guest on MU Talks?

Yeah, I mean, I guess we could do that, too. You know, I think the world wanted to see my regalia, but, hey, no, we're excited today. My friend and your friend, Dr. Greg Burch, who. Who chairs a few different things at Multnomah. What are you chairing these days at Multnomah, Greg?

I share the Global Studies department, and within that department, we have two programs. Three programs, really. The global studies undergrad degree, we have the Masters of Arts in Global Development and Justice, a grad program, and then we also have that online as well.

Yeah. And you, now, you're not new to Multoma. You were here as a student. Is this true? Years ago you were a student here?

Yeah, sure was. I graduated in 1994 with a, you know, bachelor's degree, a B.S. in biblical studies at the time, and served studied under Dr. Cook, who was our mission minor professor there at the time, and gained a lot of wisdom from him over the years. Yeah, so, yeah, been around a little bit.

No, that's cool. And you're a California boy.

Yeah, I grew up in Southern California, moved from Georgia, Torrance, California, to Mission Viejo, California, in Orange county, and kind of spent my younger teenage years there in Mission Viejo and was there until I was about 20 when I left for Multnomah. Really, to study. Yeah.

We got to tell you, obviously, you spent years on the mission field, you know, in South America, I believe. How did you. First of all, how did you feel the call of God on your life to go into missions?

Yeah, that's a great question. So I grew up, as I mentioned, in Orange County, California, and I think the Lord began using my dad, using church leaders early on in my life as we started doing trips around the world. Really? I think of a youth pastor when I was 16, invited me to go do a backpacking trip in Europe and just share our faith as we went. And, you know, I really wasn't walking with the Lord at the time. I was 16. I won't get into what was going on in my life, but I thought a vacation trip to Europe would be amazing, right? And so I joined in and found myself in a spiritual boot camp, so to speak, when I was 16, gave my life to Christ as I was preparing to go to Europe to share my faith on trains for the summer. And that summer in Europe, no joke, transformed my life radically. So I actually committed my life, came to faith in Christ on a missions trip in Europe, backpacking. So, yeah, so that's when God began that call. And I remember at one point in that spiritual boot camp literally falling on my face and saying, lord, I'm yours. You know, God, if you desire to use me in missions full time, one day, I'm yours. And so it had a very significant impact on my life at the age of 16. And from that, that point on, you couldn't keep me home, really. I was looking for opportunities in our neighboring, you know, I was two hours from the border in Tijuana, Mexico. So we spent a lot of time there serving in different ways. And it wasn't a call, it was just a nudge, kind of open doors from the Lord. When I was a junior here at Multnomah, had the opportunity to go to Bogota, Colombia and work with street youth. And that's where God just got ahold of my heart. And I felt like, how could I not return? How could I not be a part of what God was doing? As we preached in jails to narco traffic trafficantes, you know, the traffic dealers that were stuck in the jails in Colombia. Then a year later, now a junior at Multnomah, I was invited to go and work with some friends that were starting a new ministry in Venezuela. Crocus Venezuelan. We basically spent weeks traveling by bus from city to city looking for kids sleeping on the streets. And that was a junior. I was a junior at Multnomah, came back to Multnomah, finished up my next year, and six months later was back in Venezuela serving full time.

Yeah, those short term trips can be pretty powerful. I know I've been on a bunch and even the ones we're doing these days at Multnomah, one of the things, and just a shout out to Multnomah. We do mission trips really well. We have a lot of them, we have a lot of kids that go around the world, and then a lot of them end up working in these organizations. I know a lot with Cadence and a lot with Josiah Venture and many other organizations too. So that's powerful to see. I'm gonna say one more controversial thing here before we get going. I know, like I've always kind of felt like at the at, if there's a Christian food chain, I've always thought that missionaries were at the top. And I know that's not popular. Everybody's important nowadays. Everybody gets a trophy. Every calling is amazing. But you look at missionaries, I mean, they're out there, they're serving the Lord. They're giving up family and friends financially. It's really tough. Or at least I assume it can be a tough decision. I just have a lot of respect for missions and missionaries.

That leads us into a great conversation. Thank you, Rob. I personally am very excited to be working alongside Dr. Birch. I think your program in the global development and justice takes a complete different view these days in how we talk about the world, the world that has changed on us. How do we talk about global development, that we need even more people to be really passionate about nonprofits, about affecting change in the world and how do we talk about justice? All right. I heard somebody talk recently about the fact that these days social justice might actually just being staying home and caring for the people. It was an interesting concept, but I'm excited to talk about this also. Greg, tell us a little bit about your, I think your studies. And I'm also think that our conversation after we unpack a little bit. At Multnomah, we were supposed to have the mission conference and that was canceled alongside every other things. You know, it's fascinating being in Multnomah and being at a university. And I think a lot of universities, a lot of people in the academia have felt the same way. I only knew how much we're doing by all the things that were canceled. I found out the extent of how much actually was happening because you're not aware of everything's happening unless it's really in your interest. I think maybe even people outside of academia, you're finding out how much actually is happening in the world where everything is shut down and canceled and all that. But we were supposed to have missions week. And I know that you're a massive part of your studies and your research is child safety. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah, totally. So you know our family, my wife Christina, our kids, we worked and lived in Caracas, Venezuela for a number of years with homeless youth. And so a part of working with in any ministry that focuses in on at risk youth and children, you need to think about child protection. Right. Child safety. And so years into our work, unfortunately we had no child protection policies. And it took a situation to really kind of raise awareness, raise the need for having child protection protocols in our organization won't get into the details around the circumstances that kind of really encouraged us to think about keeping our kids safe. But ever since that time I've really thought critically about this issue of child protection. So I went on to do my PhD through Fuller Theological Seminary, their School of Intercultural Studies. And part of my PhD studies was done in Bolivia actually during a lockdown. So we could talk a little bit about that as well. But looking at how organizations were protecting kids, kids living on the street, kids living in residential centers, and so looking at how they were doing that without diminishing their voice, without taking away their participation in society, because some, some programs become so stringent on protecting kids that we take away their voice, take away their ability to participate in society. And so part of my PhD studies was actually looking at how church based responses were caring for kids, protecting them, but also encouraging what we call their protagonism, their ability to communicate, their ability to bring about change to the church as well as society. So it's what we call child participation. And in light of that, I looked at the balance, the spectrum of how we can keep kids safe while at the same time ensuring that they have voice. Because they are created in the image of God, just like you and I, they desire to have a role in creating and extending God's kingdom in society. And so looking at that was really phenomenal. And it's kind of really made me think, how are we keeping kids safe today? Even in the midst of COVID 19. Right. Unfortunately, we're starting to hear news briefings about children not being as safe as they were when they were in school. No longer do we have mandatory reporters, the teachers and others reporting on abuse issues in the school. So a lot of those children that are in domestic violence context are in those situations. And unless neighbors and unless other people that are involved in their lives are saying something, those kids are really running, are really at risk.

Definitely a time for us all to be loving our neighbor and looking out. And even just the fact that we're all in such close quarters. You know, I think I have a pretty good relationship with my wife and kids, but you get annoyed with each other. You know, there's no space and you're all in there, but around again, those of us in North America, nothing to complain about. I was reading a story about a family in Europe who they're in something like 7 square meters and there's a family of four or five of them that's like 80 or 90 square feet that they're quarantined in. I mean, it's tough stuff.

Yeah, Rob. And just picking up on that, you know, like, we live in a single. A single dwelling, single residents for our family. But imagine being a migrant family where you have multiple families living in a very tight space, very dense space like you have mentioned. And the stress levels, psychologists have actually proven those that live in very dense populations see an increase in stress. So imagine the complexities around not only dealing with a pandemic, but. So, yeah, I think going back to your point about looking out for our neighbors, checking in on them. Here in our neighborhood, we've used an app called Nextdoor to check in on people. And it's been a phenomenal way just to make sure our neighbors are doing good, make sure that the kids are doing well, those with underlying health conditions, do they have enough food access? So, yeah, I completely agree. And I think mission, as we're talking about mission during this time is really localized, looking out for our neighbors and hopefully provoking questions with how we live our lives.

So I don't think it's ever been a better time for churches to read your PhD work. If you've ever been interested in reading a whole PhD of 300 pages, then this is the time to find Dr. Greg Burch's PhD work. But going back to discussion, because I want us to land our conversation as we do in almost every MU talks when we have a guest. We land it somewhere, we start somewhere, and we try to land it somewhere else. But let's continue our conversation and start the conversation with missions and walk us through how you see not necessarily these changes, but how do you see missions in the time of COVID 19. And then if we can land this conversation on really caring for the most vulnerable, which the sign of a healthy society or the sign of decayed and just corrupt society is how you take care of those vulnerable.

Right.

Maybe we can lend the conversation there. So let's talk about mission.

That's great. If you don't mind, let me throw out a few definitions for you so that we have somewhere to go. So the way I understand Missio dei, for example, the mission of God is really all that God does to extend his kingdom or to build his kingdom. And so it's a pretty broad understanding of what God is doing in the world. I'd like to define mission as all that the church does with God to extend his kingdom. So again, it's pretty broad. We can get into more specific definitions around missions and so forth. But understanding that Missio dei. The mission of God is all that God does to build his kingdom. And understanding that mission is really the church partnering with God in building that kingdom. It's a tremendous privilege and honor for us to join in with what God is doing to build his kingdom. And despite rumors, God is still building his kingdom today in the midst of COVID 19. We know that he is good. We know that he desires to see his values extended in our communities, in our neighborhoods and in society and around the world. And so it's really an opportunity for us to join as followers of Christ, join in with what God is doing in our neighborhoods, in, and are in society.

Hey, question for me, Greg. Now, I know in my life, I know a lot of college students, and so I tend to think, you know, what's going on with them. And I know I have a lot of kids that are my friends and are students that have had trips canceled, that have had to come back from study abroad or from mission trips or working at camp or working all over the place. If you had a chance to talk to them, what would be your past story word? What would you say to them at this point?

Yeah, Rob, you know, we've had a lot of. I've had a lot of conversations with students over the past couple of weeks. Those that are having to cancel their trips, those are having to postpone their mission trips or internships or practicums. And I think the first thing that we need to do is acknowledge the pain. Honestly, just acknowledge that this is a difficult time and it's going to come with disappointments. And it's okay to grieve, it's okay to name that, you know, and it's okay to lament the fact that we live in a situation right now that's preventing us from doing what we believe God has called us to do. So that's the first thing is let's grieve over the loss of opportunities. And as we were preparing today, you know, I was thinking about the title of our talk, Mission in the age of COVID 19. And the thought came to me, perhaps it should be better titled Disappointment in the age of COVID 19. You know, because I'm having these conversations, Rob, with all of our students. We're praying a lot together, but they're incredibly disappointed on the loss of opportunities. I would also say that I think it's really important that we recognize the importance of flexibility when you are working in a global mission context. In fact, this pandemic is nothing new to missionaries around the world that find Themselves in the midst of political uprisings, where they have to stay indoors, they find themselves in the midst of religious persecution. They need to protect themselves, stay safe. So this idea of being flexible in the midst of ongoing crises is part of the DNA of missions, really. And, you know, looking at personality tests and so forth and who best fits in a global mission context, One of the indicators that has been determined by social scientists to be really positive characteristic for missionaries and others that work internationally is a tolerance for ambiguity. And I think we're in the middle of that, and I really think that this can be training ground for those wanting to work in international missions. You know, there are moments that we just can't control. Our locus of control is out of our hands all the time. You know, this. Rob, you travel with students all the time.

Yeah, it's disequilibrating, it's uncomfortable. And we just like to be in charge so much. And there's so many aspects, like I think of the folks working overseas, you know, even things like currency exchange, you know, they're having money come in from supporters and suddenly their dollar either skyrockets or tanks and suddenly, you know, they have to adjust on the fly financially. Yeah, tough stuff.

Tough stuff, absolutely. You know, we were living in Venezuela during a national strike, so the entire country shut down. It was the result of a couple that, you know, that was aimed at taking over the presidency of Hugo Chavez, a socialist leader. During the time. And literally the country shut down. Nobody had access to gas. We were in our house for weeks upon weeks. I was trying to. We had a newborn, so I was running out to the grocery stores trying to find milk, so forth. And we found ourselves in a lot of ambiguous situations where we just had to flex with what was going on. It was really a training ground for us. But we still found opportunities in the midst of that to minister to our neighbors. We lived in a high rise apartment building, and so there was neighbors all around us all the time that were going through exactly what we were going through. So unlike today, we have neighbors, we have people that are concerned, anxious, and having opportunities to pray with them for us in the midst of that was really critical. And think there's probably opportunities around for all of us to participate in what God is doing, to build his kingdom even now.

I think that's a good point. The flexibility, the ability to see the world changing and to look for opportunities within that. I read a great post by. I think it was Dave Batty, leader of Josiah Venture, talking about how they. Because they have all these English camps in Eastern Europe. And so, you know, they were talking about, if I remember this correctly, they were talking about trying to rethink how they were going to do that. And in some ways, you know, that whole crisis opportunity thing, you know, again, some of the systems that we've used and the strategies we've used may not work lately, but maybe there's others, and maybe some of them will be better. You know, you may get pushed out.

Of your box totally. It really forces innovation in some ways, doesn't it? I just was just reading this past week about a missionary in Japan. And as you know, within Japanese culture, you go there every year. Life tends to be quite compressed, tends to be quite hurried. There's this desire to produce and produce. And right now, missionaries are finding opportunities to produce podcasts, to have phone calls, extended phone calls with individuals and neighbors that they've been trying to reach for years. And because everything has slowed down, it's giving missionaries an opportunity to get to know their neighbors, to get to know the people that they're ministering to. I think of one newsletter I just recently read that said they used to be so preoccupied with the event, trying to create a perfect event Bible study, and now they're calling people and they're having conversations on the phone. They don't have to worry about all the. All the superficial aspects of their ministry, like creating an event that's special, but they're just having conversations. I think of another person who's in Bolivia who's now helping to produce podcasts and using zoom calls to help their neighbors understand a biblical approach to COVID 19. So I think this is a time to innovate. And one of the people that I deeply respect is Leroy Barber. He's an adjunct professor in our Global Development and Justice program. And recently he came up with the idea along with his team and his wife, Donna Barber. And what they're doing is they're providing, using grocery gift cards to minister to vulnerable families right now. So it's an innovative approach. The Maggie J. Program, our Global Development and Justice students have gotten involved. We've raised just within the group of our students $1,500 to share those gift cards with neighbors, with other vulnerable families, immigrant families, refugee families. And so we're seeing an opportunity to innovate in the midst of this, and I think that's what we really have to do.

This is a fascinating conversation. I'll tell you why. And it's spurring up some conversations on our social media. We have a very, very old and Great friend. He's not old, but an old friend of mine, Dr. Herbert Bronnemeier, he's from Austria. He's listening to us right now. He mentioned that in this time we can be. We can focus on relationship versus goal, relationship orientation versus goal orientation. But he's doing some fascinating work in South Sudan. And it's interesting if you know anything about the South Sudan crisis that what's happening there, I cannot even think. No, I just, I cannot get myself to think what would an increased number of COVID cases would do to an already existing refugee crisis, food shortage crisis, and a country that is in crisis, that is trying to rebuild itself. And so that's happening there. And then I had Gail Gray Harris, he's from Texas, he's saying, we're ministering now to families instead of just their children. Right. So the concept of, hey, there's an opportunity here for me, it's an interesting thing. And I raised this in your program is global development and justice. And you know, we always mention this and it's fascinating. One time, Rob, we're gonna have to talk about what America experienced, but from a Canadian and a Romanian perspective. Because I was thinking about this, reflecting on politically America experienced for the first time that I know of the government stepping in and saying, stay home, shut down, lockdown.

Right.

In Canada, the government has a different voice. And in Romania, in communist Romania back in the day, they had the power to do that. Right. But it's interesting to see how America right now reacts to a role of a government in this whole conversation. But what I was actually thinking how America right now, after 9, 11, and I bring this up, the churches were packed for three months and for one or two or three months and people were looking out and were trying to seek answers and were coming and packing churches after every shooting and every situation happening in America is just so hard. And the churches experience a growth 2007, 2008 market crash. You know, people had even more time and it was disaster like in this country and worldwide and people were flocking. But after a while, after a short while, people just go back to their normal lives. And you know what? We've dodged this and it must be. And this is just a self reflection and I'm poking at you, Greg and Rob to talk to me about this. And what do you think? Because I was thinking and I was talking to our students in my class about this, that what I fear is missed in this is what exactly transform our, transforms our hearts. I'm thinking of Romans, chapter 2 and says or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience? Not knowing. And maybe this was key. This was fascinating for me, not knowing that God's kindness is meant to lead you to repentance and even in the midst of a pandemic. When we talk about missions is how do we connect people? How do we make sure that people understand not that now out of fear. Right. Or out of an opportunity to show and preach the gospel. And now they're going to listen to us. And none of that, none of that will work. None of that will work for a long time. It's just going to be a spike in people saying, oh, I'm interested in hearing now. But if we don't connect them with truths that the truth of God's heart and kindness, because that's the only thing, you know, I'm thinking of First Corinthians 15, when Paul is actually spends 14 chapters in dealing with theology. And in the 15, he's going back to the gospel and says, for I deliver to you as of most importance what I've also received. He's going in the 15th chapter to this, that according to the scriptures that Christ died for our sins, according with the scripture that he was buried, he was raised on the third day according to scriptures. And then he appeared to Cephas and he starts with Simon Peter. The first one that Christ reveals himself to is the guy that just three days before he was swearing and cursing that he didn't know Jesus. So the first transformation act that happens is through an embrace of kindness, of forgiveness. Right. So I'm looking at what do we in the time of missions? Yes, there's great opportunity and I'm excited about that. It's truly exciting. People pay attention. Well, what's our message?

Yeah, I'm personally very skeptical of using any situation to manipulate people into the kingdom. Right. I think that's what you're getting at. Like there should be an authentic relationship. As your friend in Austria mentioned, this should involve authentic relationships. And this goes back to the heart of the gospel. This goes back to how Jesus incarnates himself and as our friend Eugene Peterson says, moved into the neighborhood. Right. In his translation of John 1:14, moves into the neighborhood. It's very relational and it's out of the kindness of caring for our neighbors that people. That questions are evoked in the lives of our neighbors and people around us. And this is not an opportunity. I don't, at least from my perspective, this is not something that we should do by creating mass Crusades or harvests online right now, certainly we want to give people an opportunity to come to faith in Christ. But we will do that through our acts of kindness. And that's why going back to the whole grocery gift cards, that's just one idea of loving our neighbors, demonstrating our love for them. In the midst of a pandemic or in the midst of when things are going great, there should be opportunity there for us to love people around us. Rob?

Yeah, it seems like, it seems like these times. I love your point about not, you know, manipulating or trying to, you know, get people to Jesus that way or something like that, even by fear, you know, Certainly, certainly, you know, at times like this, people are reflecting about their life and that's healthy. But I think the other thing that's healthy is, as you say, the church has a chance to actually be the church. Instead of Christians thinking that our goal is to, I don't know, get some statue put somewhere or, you know, to enact some law or something, you know, no, we can get out there and there's people that are needy and they're hurting and they're scared, and we can comfort them and we can bring stuff to folks and we can love people and do some of the things that are pretty central to the idea of Christianity. So I love it. I love it.

Aline Yesterday we were on a call with Craig Williford, the president of Multnomah. He read a quote from Martin Luther. I don't know if you guys remember that. It's from a letter in 1527. It was a letter from Martin Luther to his. To his friend, Rev. Dr. John Hess, during the deadly bubonic plague that hit the town of Wittenberg. And this is the letter in part that Martin Luther wrote in 1527. He says this. He says, I shall ask God mercifully to protect us. Then I shall fumigate, help to purify the air, administer medicine and take it. I shall avoid places and persons where my presence is not needed in order to become contaminated, and thus pre chance inflict, inflict and pollute others and so cause their death as a result of my negligence. But then he goes on to say, if God should wish to take me, he will surely find me. And I have done what he has expected of me. And so I am not responsible for either my own death or the death of others. And this is the part I really like. He says, if my neighbor needs me, however, I shall not avoid place or person, but will go freely as stated above. See this in such A God learning faith because it is neither brash nor foolhardy and does not tempt God. So his emphasis is really on caring for the needs of the neighborhood, the midst of the plague that he was facing at that time. And I think it's a good example for how we can demonstrate the kindness of Christ to our neighbors in the midst of all of this.

That makes sense. You know, you mentioned definitions of missions and it's interesting over the years how that has changed. I know, I remember that the term mission actually was coined maybe around the 15th century and is from the Portuguese misao. And it meant like it was a military term. Right. And missiology came around the 1900, but for the first 15 centuries it was basically that incarnation of the gospel, the living gospel that lives among people. Right. And we've made, we've definitely there's a militaristic aspect to, especially in the evangelical church of how we consider this. But if we remove that militaristic aspect of it, it really remains on that humane connection and the kindness. Right. And that's why I love, I love this quote from that 15th century when he's talking about. It's what I. The only aspect that I'm always cautious when it comes to missions, that the superhero nature of I'm going there and I'm doing this and I'm all this. I love the realism of Martin Luther. Right. I'll tell you why my faith is real, because there's no superhero or is not faint. It's a faith that keeps the reality in mind. Also, I want us to talk a little bit about the call to mission. Right. Most of the times that a mission conference ends, that I've ever attended in my entire life ends with Matthew 28. And we're not going to theologize on this too much, but I found that that was a very specific sending to the apostles that were right there to Christ in a very specific sending in this very specific context. For me, I've always found that the call for the larger church to go into missions is found in second Timothy chapter two. Can I read these two verses to you? So you see? Exactly. Well, I'll read from verse 20. It's second Timothy, chapter two, verses 24 to 26. But I'll read 23 because I think it fits with our social media these days. It says, again, I say, don't get involved in foolish, ignorant arguments that only start fights. Okay, that's for social media. And now it goes into what I think the call to mission is a servant of The Lord So already phrases who this is for, right? It's clearly from the beginning that servant concept, right? Which already starts who's qualified for missions. That's it. That's the qualification, right? A servant of the Lord must not quarrel, but must be kind to everyone. Be able to teach, which means that you should really consider Multoma University or you should consider really being very serious about your studies, right? Be able to teach, not be able to learn. Be able to teach, which means that you've learned and now you're able to teach others. Be patient with difficult people. Gently instruct those who oppose the truth. Perhaps, and this is good theology, God will change those people heart, those people's hearts, and they will learn the truth. And furthermore, which is fascinating. So this is the view of who you should be, of who God is and what's his role. And then the proper view of the world, then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil's trap, for they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants. In these two verses, for me, I think it's a clear sending to missions, but it's a very different one than just go and do this, but rather, okay, this is how you do it. This is who you should be. This is who God is in this. And this is how the world should be seen. And I feel that this pandemic is actually keeping people hostage to fear, is keeping people hostages to addictions, to all these increasing things that are happening. That's actually the possibility as a servant of the Lord to not quarrel, but show kindness in various ways and to be able to teach.

Yeah, I think that's good stuff. The humility is, you know, I think the hallmark of any good Christian worker. Certainly missions, you know, certainly worship, certainly youth ministry, certainly pastoral ministry. You know, if you have the humility, you got a chance. No, good words, Aline, good words.

Keep talking. Rob, I'm looking for another passage.

Oh yeah, keep talking.

No, for me it truly, it truly is more because Paul is talking to a younger disciple and saying, okay, if you want to live out this Christian life and really want to reach out people, do you have a good proper view of humanity, of who people are and what the condition is? Do you know what's God's role in this? You know, I think fundamental difference between fundamental differences between Islam and Christianity is the concept of missions and kingdom of God.

Right?

Our desire to actually. Because in Islam it's their responsibility to actually take the kingdom, right. In Christianity, it's our responsibility to talk about the kingdom, and God brings the kingdom wherever that message is accepted. Very fundamental difference. But when we bleed into making sure it's our role to take that kingdom there, I'm not going to make other statements about that, but I think, brother, Right.

You know, you're getting on a topic here that's really important. And I'll admit, when we first went to. When I first went to Venezuela, I. In some ways, I didn't say this, but I viewed myself almost with a messianic lens, you know, of like, it's my job to forcefully extend the kingdom of God. And nowhere in scripture do we see that it's God. It's God's joy to extend his came and to invite us to join in Him. You know, when I showed up on the streets of Caracas, Venezuela, to work with homeless youth, God was already present. He didn't need me. He chose to use me. And unfortunately, I didn't realize that at first. It was very messianic. It was very. Some people call the white savior complex of white Christians going into communities of people of color to save them, you know, and unfortunately, that's a misreading of who God is. It's a misreading of his scripture. And to recognize that God is already at work in communities in South Sudan, in these developing communities, and we get to join in with his story. I think it's a central aspect of who God is in the midst of mission. So I don't know if you were going to go there, but maybe I did.

You're going for a text?

I was, yeah. You know, Acts 1:8, I think, is a beautiful passage here to help us kind of realize that mission can be local as well. So Christ here says, but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem and in Judea and Samaria and to the ends of the earth. Sometimes we view this as, you know, first let's go to Jerusalem, then let's go to Judea, let's. And let's go to Samaria. But there's a simultaneous call for believers. I believe in here when Jesus calls us to Jerusalem and to Judea and to Samaria and to the ends of the earth. It's simultaneous. So as you go to Jerusalem and as you go to Judea and as you go to Samaria, he doesn't leave out anybody. But let's not forget that mission in the age of COVID 19 is really a call to be local in our care for one another. If you are a missionary on the field serve the communities that you have been serving. But to recognize that God is giving us opportunities. Going back to that conversation about innovation, look for those innovative ways to be an authentic follower of Christ, living out what comes naturally to us as followers of Christ and loving on our neighbors, fulfilling the great commandment.

Go ahead, Rob. Go ahead.

Yeah, I'll give a shout out to my wife, who is a pretty significant introvert and also a lover of homes. And if you've been following our life at all. So we've got all our stuff. We moved into the dorms at Multnomah, and so we got a pile of stuff in all the rooms. But we have a place out in Newport. And so we've been spending time out there and we've been back in Multoma for a couple days. And Leslie said to me today, you know, she's like, there's still some students here on campus. Maybe we should consider staying here. And I was kind of like, we've got like, a really nice place out there and, you know, the Internet's very fast out there. And I was like, man, good for you, Bess. You know, using the, you know, looking past your personal comfort and saying, you know, maybe this is what the kingdom would have me do right now.

And, Rob, you didn't actually share the main reason why. Why you want to find yourself in Newport. My understanding from Rob is that the stores actually have toilet papers there.

Yeah, the Walmart has.

So you're giving that up. Let's just talk about the actual thing here.

Now I know where to go, you know, before.

Before we land on a conversation of caring for the most vulnerable. And Greg, we're going to end our episode and our live here with some of your thoughts on that. I just want to take your. Get your thoughts on this. I'm going to sprinkle this on you a little bit because it's fascinating and it's going to make the point for another episode. One time, but a pastor in Florida was arrested for actually keeping their church open. Now, I don't with Rob on MU talks. We never want to be controversial for controversy's sake, and we don't care about that. Especially after I read Second Timothy to you to not get involved in foolishness. Foolish talks that don't really provide a. But I think people are struggling with this. And so I'm curious just to take your ide on this. I have my opinions on this, so let me set the context. What happened is that the church. And again, I don't subscribe to the pastor's view, his theology, his, all this, those are interesting on their own. So again, I'm not defending this, but these are the two things that happen. One is just talking about mission and the role of the church and how we can actually serve because some people would consider that being the church is you have to keep those things going and keep the services going, keep those things going. And it's actually, there's an interest. Again, I'm not landing on, I don't see one point or another, but this is what happened. The church actually invested $100,000 in a new air purifying system to make sure that they're safe. They invested in gloves and all that and they still had held their church service and they were in compliance with the law. Now there's not a specific law necessarily, but there was a stay home, stay safe, you know, in Florida at that time, they were more compliant than the businesses around them working. So from a legal perspective, I actually disagree why this pastor was, was arrested. From a legal perspective, I think there was an abuse happening from, from, from the state necessarily. But from a spiritual, moral, all that, everything left and from the spirituality, the message that you're sending out as a pastor when you're still holding, you're investing so much money in air purifying air purifiers. And I don't want to do Thomas, Thomas's theology now. Right, I'm sorry, Judas theology right now with the money we could have. That's not what I'm going for. But it, I'm not, I don't agree with what happened necessarily from, from you holding church services. Even though the question that arises is what they're questioning is why is the church not essential? Why is it considered not essential now in the time when businesses are considered essential and they're allowed to operate. Thoughts? And again, not controversial, just curious what you guys think about this.

Go ahead, Greg, I'll follow you.

You know, I saw the situation. I read it, I read about it. And you know, let me just say, first of all, my heart goes out to pastors right now, especially those smaller congregations that might not have the technology of some of the larger congregations. I don't know if that was the case for this church in Florida. So let's just face the fact that it's probably a very challenging time for our pastors, right? And perhaps even some that are watching us today. But having said that, as pastors and as leaders, as professors, we have an obligation to really do what's best for our communities. That God has given us to shepherd and to love and to protect. And I think we, I think there's some wisdom in following the authorities at this point. Honestly, there's a reason why we are encouraged to be staying at home at this point to lower that curve. We won't get into that, but there's a lowering of the curve of infection and we really want to see that taking place. It looks like it's perhaps taking place here in Oregon because people are staying home. And I think there's a responsibility, perhaps even a legal responsibility to ensure that we are protecting both physically and spiritually, those that God has put under us. And unfortunately, it goes back to that whole idea of this false dichotomy of where we split the physical and the spiritual. Let's just focus on the spiritual souls, you know, and forget the physical bodies that God has given us. And I don't know, you know, again, I don't know the pastor, I don't know the situation in Florida, but it makes me wonder if they have not just bought into this false dichotomy of, okay, let's focus on the soul. That's what's most important here. When in reality God calls us to focus on the whole person.

Yeah, I think it's super short sighted and we've talked about this on the podcast before. There's no false binary between, there's no fault, there's a false dilemma to say common sense and faith. Those things do not need to work opposite again, like Luther has quoted so clearly. By the way, another church in France, I think they've linked, I think something like 2,500 infections to this one.

Oh, we're losing Rob Hildebrand. Interesting, Greg. Yeah, you're muted, but I appreciate your point, Greg, with that and your shout out. And that's the reason I actually wanted to raise this, this point for many reasons. I think we need to talk about this because we as a church, we always keep an eye on what is the state doing in that regard. So there's a shout out that happens there. But I really love how you where you took it in the sense that in the context of mission and talking about kingdom work, right. There is more than the church service. There is much more than that.

Right.

And if we think that as a church that's the only thing we could do, I think we really need to consider then this discussion is really welcomed on the fact that there's more to our mission than just having that church service. Right. Even though I'm actually not minimizing the importance of that. Because if we have various type of businesses that if they're compliant, they can actually keep their doors open. Maybe some churches that are smaller or the churches that can really keep this, maybe they can actually offer a place of solitude for people and a place of prayer and reflection and some support for people. So that's why I'm not settled. I've not landed on an idea on this, but it's an interesting topic. So can we. Yeah, go ahead, Go ahead, Greg.

No, absolutely. I think it's an important conversation to have. You know, right now the key word is essential. So maybe there are services that churches are offering that are essential and they need to have a conversation around that. I think of a lot of our students or a lot of our alumni that are alumnus of the Global Development and Justice program, of our global Studies program, they're working in homeless shelters right now. They're being hired by Multnomah county, they are essential personnel. And there are churches that are functioning as social services right now. So it's not a binary discussion, as Rob has pointed out. It's not black and white, but rather there is some complexity to it that we need to think critically about, you.

Know, to that church and exactly to the point. And I think this is where we're gonna. We've exhausted the discussion on that. But that church is a mega church and they actually have a marketplace with groceries and stuff. And I was immediately in my mind, went to, why did you not keep that open? That's it. Like the marketplace. Right. Anyways, can we, can we lend us. Welcome back, Rob. Rob got out for just a few seconds due to Internet connection, I think, or the government, I'm not. Who knows? But can we land our conversation on a few things that we could do, us, ourselves, the families and anybody involved. And how do we keep the most vulnerable safe? Just some thoughts on that and then we can wrap this up. But we're going to wrap this episode up.

I love the idea, I love the idea of sharing the toilet paper. I mean that's a small idea. I mean I love what you're doing, Greg, with your guys with the food, you know, helping the most vulnerable. I think what I'm going to do when we go back to town, I was waiting to get a marker. I've got these little four rolls and I'm just going to write my name. I'm going to get a Sharpie and I'm going to write and say, hey, if you need anything, I've got a 20 year old and a 23 year old we can send out into the virus ridden world to. Or if you're immuno, whatever, Rob, I.

Think you're still under that line of, you know, risk factor. Virus 49.

I guess I'm not quite.

Yeah, you and I are the same age.

Yeah, that's right. Where's my mask?

No, I agree with Rob. Just reaching out to people around us, you know, and we have students that work with undocumented families and they obviously are feeling very vulnerable right now. Some of them are scared to access some of the resources that local and state government are putting out. Whether it's a realistic fear or not, I'll save that for another day. But there are communities, there are families, I think recently resettled refugees here in the Portland area. Can you imagine, Just imagine for a second, you know, a family coming from South Sudan, learning English, perhaps in a new city, have very few contacts, very few friends, and then all of a sudden this pandemic breaks out. They are feeling extremely vulnerable right now. So that's why we're reaching out to groups like Refugee Care Collective, which is an organization here in Portland, and other organizations that are in touch with these families. I think, I think it's critical that we trust the organizations that are working with these vulnerable families and that we provide the resources, we support them, we pray for them. In the midst of this right now, another thing we can do, which I've seen around here, even in our neighborhood, is people dropping off grocery bags, sanitizing them, and then dropping them off. For elderly folks in our communities, using apps like nextdoor to see if your neighbor is doing okay, or reaching over the fence, six feet apart, of course, but reaching over the fence and asking how they're doing. So this is part of our calling as followers of Christ at this point. And obviously Jesus, you know, we see this in James 1:27, caring for the most vulnerable, for the orphan and the widow in our communities, that's a call that has gone out that, as far as I know, it hasn't expired yet. And we still have this calling to care for vulnerable people in our communities.

Yeah. And also for the children. There's been so two things that I want to addressed. There have been spikes in two areas that I think grieve every person that has any heart. They should actually grieve any person. So the first spike is in domestic abuse and child abuse that happen. And if we can, if we can help in any way, if there's any things that we can do and let you know, keep an eye on Neighbor and see if you can just talk neighbors through. If you know that there's some neighbors that are into alcohol addiction. If you can just call up or. I don't know. I have. I'm actually out of ideas how I can. But I know that's been a spike in cases actually in America. And the second one is. And I think there's something we can do about that. There's been a radical increase in racism acts against Asians and Asian Americans. And that is. This is how I. This is how I think. And we're using our platform. Right, Right, Rob. And talks. But not just our platform, really. That as Christians, it's unacceptable and we cannot accept it. And I tell you, the one way we can actually be accomplices to that is to be quiet about it. That's the one way that you can be quiet. I remember when there was a spike in racism against Middle Eastern people in England. And they actually, what they did is they launched a movement where they put. They put safety pins. People would actually put safety pins on their clothes to say, I'm safe with me. You're safe. I will not discriminate against you. I will not do this against you. I'm a safe person. I wish I could start a movement in America right now where people, Asian Americans, would know I am a safe person. Not only that, I'm not going to say this to you, that you can approach me, you can ask me things. I will never make a inappropriate joke around you about what's happening right now. I'm never gonna call this in any way the virus and assign it to you. There's just all this. Not only that, I'm not gonna do this. If you need an advocate, if you need somebody to say, like, stop it. If you need somebody to actually be a voice for you, I'm that person for you. So I think as Christians, we have a responsibility to actually stop this and to not just. Not just to say it's wrong, but rather to be vocal about it.

Absolutely. Just a shout out to our Asian American friends. We stand with you in the midst of this rise in anti Asian racism. And I completely agree. I think going back to our whole understanding of mission church, partnering with God to extend his values in this world. And part of the values of God is the worth and dignity of every human being. We're on equal footing there. And anytime someone tries to use racism to denigrate a person's life, that is anti biblical and anti Kingdom of God stuff. So I agree with you. We need to shout out from the mountaintops that we stand with our Asian Americans brothers and sisters right now and support them in any way we can.

Yeah, I was gonna say wrong. And also ridiculous. Like there's as many people in New York with the diseases as China. If the numbers are to believe. Be to believe. What are we gonna say? All New Yorker. I mean, it's ridiculous. Yeah. With you.

Yeah.

And also somebody listening to us and saying like, I'm not racist. I don't feel, you know, I don't discriminate against them. But I want you to know that you sharing that meme with an inappropriate joke about it, that can be as hurtful as you being full out racist against that. So it's a time of being really sensitive, especially as Christians. So again, I'm not, I can't, I can't judge the world. Paul is very clear about, like, there's what can I do to the world? I can't judge it, but I can actually be a little bit more rigorous and demanding with the people that share same values as us around us. To say maybe that was, that's not a time for poor memes and sharing just on Twitter or on social media, just promoting that kind of hate speech.

Right.

Looking at the vulnerable around us. Greg, I am concluding thoughts.

Yeah. You know, just going back to kids in our neighborhoods. This is a unprecedented time that families are facing with their children. And you're right, some of those underlying issues of addiction are probably boiling up right now. Anytime someone finds themselves in a, in a situation of stress, I think of even missionaries that are on the field right now facing very challenging situations, those addictions tend to boil over. So, you know, if you are in that situation, we would encourage you to reach out, reach out to your pastor, reach out to a trusted friend and let them know what's going on. Right now, we don't want to see kids in our communities, kids in our families, abused during this time. And another thing too, for those of us who are mandatory reporters, including all of us on this call as university professors, this is an opportunity for us to look around our neighborhoods. Not go peering into the windows, but look around our neighborhoods. Make sure that the kids in our neighborhoods are safe. And if they're not, I'm sure there's a hotline you can Google in two seconds for DHS here in Oregon or child protective services anywhere in the nation.

Well, thank you. Ryan on social media says use this as an opportunity to begin community conversations via social media or WhatsApp about how to meet the need of those on your community. And I think that is the most modern definition of mission. Right? Using what we have at our disposal to really be that incarnational love and kindness of God around us. Dr. Greg Burch, thank you so much for being with us on MU Talks. Reverend Dr. Robert J. Hildebrand and myself are thankful for you being with us and for people listening to mutalks. This was recorded live via Zoom. I'm giving a shout out. I'm spiking the Zoom stocks even more right now. Giving a shout out. But this was recorded live. You can find us on social on all most major social media venues. Our podcast is also on iTunes, Spotify, Rhode Radio and everything else out there that has podcasts. And as always, Rob the views and.

Opinions if I can find the unmute button. Yeah, views and opinions shared on Mulearn. And it's really hard to do this without the music so I gotta feel the Bible. I'm talking. But yes, they don't represent any official organization like Multnomah. We're just. Just friends talking.

Just friends talking. So thank you very much everybody and thank you for being with us on on social media. God bless you and talk to you soon.