Advent Series | Cultivating Joy With Dr. Kristen White

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In the studio at Malone University. The Advent series.

Oh, so excited to be with everybody. Another episode. I live for the oh yeah, I live for it. For Rob's oh yeah. Welcome back to MU Talks. This is Renee. Rob and Aline welcome you to another episode and especially special episode in the middle of the Advent series. So we're just going to let Renee take this take this over and and I yield the mic to Renee not only to tell us about the Advent series, but to introduce a very, very, very special guest.

Renee yeah, that's right, Eileen. This is week three of the Advent series and we here at mutalks want our discussions to be part of this preparation time. Advent is traditionally a time when Christians prepare their hearts and minds to focus on and celebrate the arrival of their during the four weeks of Advent, we are going to focus our discussions on the traditional themes of hope, peace, joy and love, specifically as they are impacted by our everyday life. If you haven't had a chance, please go back and listen to our first two weeks where we discuss the topics of hope in Ecclesiastes with Dr. Carl Kutz and the topic of peace in the midst of conflict with Dr. Karen Fancher. These were excellent and enriching conversations and you do not want to miss out on them. This week on mutalks we'll be focusing on the theme of joy and we're asking the question, is the Christmas spirit we're experiencing characterized by joy or by distraction? To join us in this discussion is Dr. Kristen White. Dr. White is a clinical psychologist and professor here at Multnomah University in the Master of Counseling program. She has worked clinically in a variety of settings and with a variety of people and has taught in three other Christian universities. Her passion drives her to extend therapeutic tools and information beyond the office and classroom, and she is currently in training to be a spiritual director as well. Dr. White, thank you so much for being here.

Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Oh, this is so exciting. Now, low key. One of the reasons that we all wanted to have you on emmetalks is to have a counseling session for free. So we're talking about you're not joy enough for that. We're having an important discussion on joy. It was our discussion at mutalks before we launched the Advent series that more and more especially Christmas and any Christian holiday really is marked by destruction by the marketability of the story. We get distracted with the small things and the little things and we really miss on the larger picture on the great things that should be celebrated, the true celebration. And we were really excited to have a conversation about joy. What. What is that? How do we. How do we do. How do we deal with that? What's going on with joy? Can you. The floor is yours. The floor is yours. I look forward to hearing your thoughts on this.

Such a big, broad question. I love it. Okay, well, Renee asked a great question. We were talking before this about just what is joy, first of all, right. Because I think we get into a lot of confusion there. We use a lot of different words with it. Happiness and, and pleasure and contentment. Right. There's all kinds of words we associate with joy. But I think it's really important in a conversation like this to differentiate that those are not the same things. And I'm not necessarily trying to be the grammar police here or something, but I think we set ourselves up for some confusion when we conflate all of these ideas together. And a lot of authors, I'm thinking psychologically, Sharon Hart Weber, more theologically, JP Moreland, a number of people talk about joy as being distinct from happiness even. And that happiness or pleasure are often sort of momentary responses to circumstances. They could even be long term. Maybe we have a great season in our life and we feel happy for six months or two years. Right. But they're very circumstantially based and they are more transient and they talk about joy often as being more almost a virtue that we can develop where it's a. A underlying character trait, it's something we develop that becomes a joy, a happiness or these other things irregardless of the circumstances. And it's not totally like some separate Gnostic, like spiritual, disembodied. Right. It's still very much connected to our experience. And it does really actually liven and add more color and more joy. For lack. There's just no substitute for that word, right? Like more joy to the beauty in life. But it also transcends that and transcends the. The circumstances and can be present even in the midst of pain and suffering. And I would also add this is obviously really biblical, right? Particularly the Gospel of John talks about that Jesus came to give us life, and he came to. So that his joy may be in us and our. And the joy may be complete. Right. So there's something in the Gospel of John that says this is really spiritually profound and really central to Jesus's mission of why he came and what he wanted to leave us that I think makes this a really important conversation not only at Christmas, which is A good time to talk about it, but really all year long because there's something really central here. I could say lots more, but I feel like I should pause and like, check in with you guys.

So how then would you say, should we be concerned about distraction or how do we bring distraction and the reality that we live in a very distracted world to meet this conversation about joy?

Yeah, I think I almost want to use the word busyness, right? Because that's something that tends to be really pronounced over the holidays. And some of that busyness could serve our joy, right? Some of it. I love Christmas lights. I love Christmas lights. I could probably go visit Christmas lights as like a spiritual discipline in and of itself and experience joy with Jesus there. Right. But sometimes some of it is just. Is just distraction and is things that take us away from ourself, away from God, away from true connection with others at a more authentic level that then. That really actually moves us away from joy. Because joy doesn't come from the Christmas, the perfect Christmas. Right? It doesn't come. That's the false narrative that goes with the American dream. It doesn't come like happiness from having the perfect house or the perfect holiday or the perfect gathering. Joy is something much, much more transcendent and deep that we have to pursue differently than just through distracting activities.

What advice would you give? Like, I remember last Christmas, we were sitting in. In France, and the plan was to bring our kids over. And then Covid made that pretty much impossible. So it was Leslie and me in this big, stone super cold, dark castle, and we were working every day. Like we took a few hours off for Christmas kind of thing. And it was. It was cheerless. Like, it was. It was so. And I remember thinking, man, it just feels so empty. And. And it's a feeling I recognized from the first Christmas after my parents died. And we were all trying to gather together, and it just. It just felt like. What advice would you give for folks in situations where they're not able to be close to family or. Or the people they love? What coping mechanism? What. What would you have to say?

I love that question, especially this year, right, because there's so many people facing the holidays without love from COVID or job losses or so many things. It's really important, I think, first I would say to let yourself be where you are, right? So to not. Not make it worse, not make the suffering worse by having this expectation that you're supposed to feel differently. That's just going to make it more miserable. Secondly, I would say, I mean, honestly, this sounds so spiritual, right? But to ask the Lord, right, to ask for his presence and his joy and talk with him about what's happen, engage maybe even some disciplines, some spiritual disciplines from the ancient church tradition. And maybe the examen would be one where at the end of the day, you're just checking in to say, where was their life today? And also where was their heaviness? Right. We're acknowledging that stuff and we're lamenting and we're confessing, but we're also asking, where was their life? Where was their joy? And asking the Lord, please show me, give me eyes to see and ears to hear so that I can even find the little tiny moments in the midst of the bleak, dreary castle. And again, if you don't, okay, this is real heavy, then. So get some people to help. Right. And support you. But I think that would be a place to start.

It's great.

Yeah.

Wow.

I think there was so much over there that I, I wish I would slow down and say, get the people to help, see what's going on. Self awareness, all this. I, I actually don't have a question necessarily, but I was reminded of something that, a biblical principle that I used in my life. I was going through psalms, reading psalms, and I got to Psalm 4, and it was such a powerful image for me that I decided, this has to be my life's principle. What am I missing here? And it was some, some really rely on all kinds of things. But then it says, many people will say, who will show us better times? Let your face smile on us. Lord, you have given me greater joy than those who have abundant harvest of grain and new wine. In peace I will lie down and sleep. For you alone, O Lord, will keep me safe. And it was such a, an image of, I have, you have given me greater joy in my heart that some have when their circumstances or their harvest is plentiful. All this, and I, I remember this the moment you said, that's a discipline, which is interesting. I never thought of joy as a discipline.

Right.

And I'm curious if, and I think maybe people have never maybe stopped and reflected on, am I, do I have joy? Where do you start in, in, in your life in a self assessment, if somebody comes to you and says, look, I'm miserable, or I'm not happy and all this, how would you, how would you put somebody to reflect or assess? What would be the steps that you would take for somebody to say, we're so close to Christmas right now? Not that, Chris, but for me, Christmas is Magic. I mean, I just. I. Up in Europe and it was snow, and every time we had, like, big snow and people would slow down. It was just. And people were happy for the first time in this. You know, in Eastern Europe, most people wear black all. All year long. Right. And all of a sudden, like, people put their festive clothes.

You can.

The whole society changed. And I love that because of the changes. And so it was very special. And. And for me, coming to us, and I said this in the Advent series already, it was just. It was a different. And I was struggling to catch up and figure out, so. So it was such a time of joy, but I didn't find that necessarily here. I think I struggled more because the society didn't. You know, it changed after Thanksgiving. By the time you get to Christmas, like, everything. You know, the songs are already. You've heard them a thousand times in all the malls and all the stores. Like, it's just. It's very dragged on from right after Thanksgiving all the way to Christmas. But. But not because Christmas is special. But what would you tell somebody that is now thinking, hey, I'm reflecting. I stopped, I slowed down, and I don't feel that I have joy.

Yeah. First, I want to say I think there's some wisdom in just stopping and slowing down. Right. That's really hard, especially during the holidays. So you just said that. And I think that's really wise, that that might be the first step, is to pause and take some time for reflection and contemplation and introspection and to check in with yourself. Right. And to check in with the Lord in that. And if there's still some confusion, you could certainly ask loved ones. Right. About their experience of you and with you. But I think even just slowing down and noticing. And I want to say in that, that there is. This is easier for some of us than others. Right. Even though we're talking about it as a discipline and a virtue, it does come more naturally to some people than others, both. Both nature and nurture. Genetically. Some people have more of a temperament. That makes it easier for them to find joy. And of course, we have different family backgrounds, and some of our families emphasized finding the joy, and some of them emphasized finding everything wrong. I was at one of those families, so. So I want to acknowledge that. That this isn't. If you don't find joy, it doesn't mean you've done something wrong. Right. It could mean life is really hard. It could just mean nobody's ever taught you, you know, ways to engage this. So I think slowing down and noticing is important. And then again, if. If there isn't joy, getting honest with yourself and with your loved ones, with a therapist or a spiritual director, right? What is that about? And there may be work of grief or lament that has to be done before there's space for joy, but eventually it can be there. I even had an experience in prayer recently where I came just feeling heavy, and I'm doing a lot of imaginal prayer. So I was reading in Mark, and I was in the story where Jesus cast the demons into the pigs. And so I'd been in this story a few times and was. Did a lot of watching, right? Because this is a really interesting story to be in. And that morning I felt like Jesus said, I want you to be the man who's demon possessed and be in that peace. I was like, okay, I don't know where this is going, but I felt like as I sat with Jesus, he just reached in and said, like, hey, this thing, this isn't yours. This is something you're carrying that belongs to this person. And this thing, this belongs to this work project and this thing, right? And it was like he just took them all off. And then there was joy. It was just waiting underneath all that. I didn't have to do anything else because I've cultivated that virtue, but I did have to do the work with Jesus or with others to, like, let some of those pieces go and let the joy come up of him abiding in me underneath that. I have more thoughts on abiding, but I see your. Your brain turning, Rob, so I want to go to you.

Oh, no, keep going, keep going. Oh, while you're on it.

Yeah.

The other thought I had while both of you were sharing earlier is in John 15, where Jesus says, you know, I think someone. My theological, biblical people. Yeah, it's the. It's the passage about abiding where he says, I want you to have my joy, and I want it to be complete. So forgive me if I'm misquoting, but the context of that is in this chapter about abiding in Jesus, abiding in our triune God. And I have to admit that that passage has really stumped me for a good couple of decades. And I think that I've equated it often with my own, like, be good, right? I like, I hear the obey the commands parts, and they're real loud, and I'm like, okay, that's what it means to abide. It means I do everything right. And like, I Manage my sin and I'm good and then I'll have joy. I don't think that's true, but it's taken me a long time and I'm starting to come to understand, understand this idea of abiding as being very relational. And my psychologist, part of my brain, sees it through this idea of attachment and that what it means to abide is it means that I have intimacy with the triune God as an abiding relationship that I come back to all the time when I'm distressed, when I'm joyful and I want to explore. I come back to God as this attachment figure in relationship. And there's joy there. And that's where it can transcend the circumstances, right? Because, you know, I mean, picture a little kid who stubs their falls and skins their knee and then they run to mom and they're crying or dad doesn't matter, but they run to the secure attachment figure and they're crying. And eventually if there's comfort, they go away happy again. Not because the knee is better, right? But because they've been comforted and they've been held and they've been loved. And so I think there's something in the midst of all of this conversation that the joy is in being loved and held by a God who loves us so much he would send his son as a baby. Right? That's what we celebrate at Christmas. But we have to sometimes get through some of the hard stuff to experience that and, and get do disciplines that help us really not just know that in our heads, but experience that in our heart.

Can I ask about the role of tradition in. In joy and celebration? I. I found that, like, I just kind of analyzing my own life, you know, A huge part of Christmas for us was, was just all the traditions, the great food. We were technically poor growing up, but my parents really went all out at Christmas. They were like, it's difficult for us not to start Christmas, you know, before Halloween actually for us. So we're not. Sounds like we're not on the same page.

Are you sure you want to admit that on air.

Christmas is a beautiful thing. And, and so again, going back, like the first, the first time after my parents were gone, there's like nobody buying presents. And. And so suddenly now I have to buy presents for all my younger brothers and I'm super cheap, so I'm like, oh man. And then. Or even this last year with our kids not there, you know, we're in this empty house and I'm kind of like. And it was all the traditions that I missed. And, you know, it seems that humans are traditional beings and we find joy in the Christmas lights and the decorations and the food. At least. I love them. So one of our strategies, and I don't know if this is healthy or dysfunctional, was to attempt to create some new traditions. Like, we. Some of them are dumb and some of them are cool. Like, we. We now have Chinese food. The night we put up the Christmas tree. That's a new tradition. It's awesome. We now, when we're in France, we buy something called, like, it's some weird name for a chicken. That's. It's kind of gross. It's like a male chicken. They don't usually let the chickens be male live, but they let them live. They do things to it. I don't know.

It's terrible.

But it's really tasty.

Where are we going right now?

Okay, so we ate one of those and it was awesome. It was like, oh, that's a nutrient. It's not a turkey. It's like, look it up. It's weird, but it was super tasty.

I didn't even know how to look that up.

No. Like male chicken.

I don't know.

It's a thing anyways. I don't know. Tradition's helpful. Harmful. What do you think?

Like, I think it's a great question. I love that you bring it up. And I think that I hear, Rob, that you know yourself in this and that you know that traditions bring you life and bring you joy. So it makes a lot of sense to. For you to lean into those. But that may not be true for everybody. Right? There may be some people that traditions are part of the distraction. And so I think that's part of what's important here is to lean into with ourselves and with the Lord and with other people. What is actually life giving. Right. And even from a spiritual formation perspective, we would talk about the ideas of consolation and desolation and what are the things that give us a sense of God's presence, of being walking in alignment with who he's made us to be, versus what are the things that are exhausting and just draining. Right. And leaning into the former. Right. And away from the latter whenever we can. And that's, I think, for you, traditions bring consolation. And for a lot of people, they probably do. And for some people, they don't. So I think that's a good place for self reflection too.

You mentioned the pigs that were. And. And I remember that the legend says that only one Survived. The legend said that one of those pigs that were running, you know, the Gadara.

Yeah.

One survived. And. And as they were all running towards the sea, one stopped and said, wait, if I jump, I'm gonna die? Like, no. And they just. The pig just turned and went back. And the moral of that whole legend is like, wait, if you keep doing what you're doing, where is this going to lead you? Right? And so I'm thinking of, go ahead.

This is a real tradition, or you're not making this up.

I actually heard it in Israel and it was actually so funny. It was like, the legend says only one survived. And the moral of that story is like, why do you keep doing what you're doing? Like, do you think if you just keep going wherever you're going, where is that going to lead you? So just to reflect on where you're going, I think Rob has something.

No, no, I'm just thinking over it.

Yeah.

But the whole. The whole question is joy killers and joy thieves.

What.

What are some of the things that you see when you talk to people and people. I think, number one, number one, I say, what's the number one thing that leads people to your office? But it's like they don't feel happy and they don't feel sad and all this. I'm curious. I'm. I have one that I'm curious to ask about, and that is technology. You know, kids with iPads, phones, we're always on our phones. We're always connected. We're always this in. And I think I no expert opinion that it's one of the joy killers, that we're always with her mind somewhere. We're not in the present. We're not looking, connecting with people face to face. We're not. We're not enjoying the moment, the present. We're always either somewhere suing, seeing what happened, or trying to figure out what's going to happen, but we're not today, here in this moment. What are some of the joy killers that you've seen that that would be good to just stay away from?

I think you're right that technology can be one, but I would say it's. It's obviously not technology in and of itself itself. It's the mindlessness and disconnection that are coming with the technology that are making them joy killers. Because even again, from a spiritual formation perspective, where we meet with God and experience joy and abide with him is in our real lives and in our real selves. So if we're disconnected and we're Mindless, we don't know what's happening inside of us. We're not being present with what's around us. We can't experience joy. So I think in that sense, if we're using technology in a way that makes us more engaged and more present, it may bring joy. But if we're using it in a way that's distracting and disconnecting again, both from ourselves, from other people, from God, then that will kill joy. Also other joy killers that come to my mind, I'm curious what you guys think, but I would also say shoulds and expectations, especially around the holidays, right? All the this is what you should feel or this is what it should look like to bring you joy, that all kills joy, right? Because that's all just this other people's stuff. It's not, it's not really where you are and who you are and what the Lord is doing in your life right now and inviting you into. So shoulds, expectations, mindlessness, sometimes the distractions, but again, those are going to be different for different people. Yeah, Rob, you look like you have a thinking.

I mean that makes sense too because you know, and again I'm, I was just thinking through the different roles in the family. Right. And, and so for me, I, I, I don't do a ton at Christmas and like my wife does all the work and so I can, I'm thinking, although she does enjoy it, to be honest, she's a huge Christmas person. But I could see that that could be a berry, like, you know, you, oh, I gotta do this, then I gotta get this meal and then I gotta do all this and I gotta bake this and then yeah, it makes sense.

And, and that busyness sometimes can do it. And I love Christmas and I have finally realized I like being busy.

Yeah.

But I over commit and so then sometimes the over committing and the busyness starts to take the joy out of it. So for me, at the beginning of the Christmas season, I also have to pause and be like, what do I really want to engage in this year? Like, do I want to spend a day making Christmas cookies? Do we have a tradition? Sometimes we do soup jars for people with, you know, just a small like homemade present. Like do I have space for that this year? Is that going to bring me joy? Or is that just actually going to be a distraction and a busyness that is going to suck the life out of it? And I answer that question differently at different years. So that's important of knowing ourselves, but also like pausing and checking in about our season if you're just totally wiped from, like, the last year and a half, like, welcome to the club. We might need to lower our expectations this year and like, our plans, because otherwise it's just going to suck the joy out of it just by sheer busyness.

Yeah, it's good.

Yeah. Sometimes in our house, I think we need an exit strategy from Christmas, meaning that we get really excited about Christmas. I four kids. And so Christmas is a big deal. And then when it's over, I've got especially one that gets real sad. And so I feel like we kind of need as a family, an exit strategy for how to come down out of Christmas and still feel joyful even though Christmas is over.

Yeah. Is there anything that's worked for you guys so far in that we start.

Talking about it early.

Okay.

We start talking about, you know, about what happens next and how the things that we love and each other, that we are still together. And like, we spend time together and just not downplaying the things that. That are over, but just talking about the always. The always things that we have and about the gift of Jesus eternally earlier instead of letting the temporary things take over the entire space.

That sounds really wise. And I think it would be interesting even for you guys to reflect on as a family. What are the things that are bringing you joy out of these traditions or activities? And then how can you continue some of those? Right. Which sounds like the sort of the path you're already on, but even being more intentional about not only we're going to have this letdown, but, like, what are the things here? Is it time together? Like, we can keep doing that, right? Is it reflecting on Jesus? We can keep doing that, right. What is it that's bringing joy? Is it the beauty and things? Cool. Let's find other ways during the year to pursue beauty. So I think. I think I would agree with that path. And there's also just learning to live with the letdown and let ourselves rest and some of that be okay and figure out how to even be together in that and. And love each other and hold each other so that it turns back eventually into joy. Right, Right.

So I don't know if this is the same thing, but I've kind of noticed the same, like in my own kids and sometimes in myself. Like on. It's probably a little bit different, but like on birthdays or something, you know, it would be a kid's birthday and then they kind of have more temper tantrums than normal or they get more. Or even like, notice Disneyland you know, you walk, you take everybody to Disneyland. It's supposed to be the greatest place on earth. And then you see kids having tantrums.

All over the place, totally overstimulated.

Yeah. Okay. And maybe there's. And, and, And I. I felt the same at Christmas sometimes. And I wondered if partly. And you guys, I'm just a hack here. I'm throwing this out. Sometimes I wonder, like, you go into some days and you expect like, if you're going into it, ego, you know, kind of egocentrically, selfishly, you know, and, and you expect everything to be this and to get all this and get it and like on your birthday, everything's gonna be about me today. And then it's not. And you're grumpy and everything wasn't perfect. Yeah. After all, I find that the, the selfishness kind of turns me into kind of a lousy guy. That's probably maybe different than your kids. But I've noticed that at Christmas too, I don't. So almost for me, like a refocusing like this is. This is not about me. Today has been helpful.

Yeah. And a selfishness could certainly be a joy killer. Yeah, absolutely.

Expectation, you know, but if I go into it, I don't know know, if I go into it going, hey, I'm gonna. I'm gonna do this thing for my family this year. And then, then of course, joy to see them eat the bacon that I cooked or whatever, you know, that's a small steps.

I have one more question for you. I think we're getting very close to the time usually when especially Christmas and large celebrations, people come together and you are spending time with parents, with. In laws, with people that you don't normally spend time with. And that is 50, 50. Sometimes it's great, sometimes it is not. And it is. Is very different from family to family and from culture.

Not for any of us. Of course not for any of us.

But, you know, I've heard talking about the art of setting boundaries, of knowing how to actually have joy in the midst of one of the things that I've noticed in life that the proverb, true, it's better to have less with peace than a house full of meat. It says over there, full of all kinds of things with. With. Yeah, the coral. And how do you set good, healthy boundaries, especially with the loved ones? It hurts more apparently, to set the boundary than to. To go through the. The craziness. For some people, for some, I see that especially culturally, you don't want to have. You'd rather just. Just Let things go. But that it's a joy killer.

Yes.

Because it really, it's, it's such a grinding thing in the relationship to know that there's hurt there that has happened. People don't even know that they. You might have hurt them. And yet the hurt is there. So what are some things that you could do relationally this Christmas as you sit around the table and everybody's smiling and is happy, but if you could just pull the veil out of the whole situation, it might look different.

Yeah. Such a great question. And I relate to the being a peacemaker. So I just want to go along with all of it because it just seems like it makes everybody happier. But I think you're right obviously to just go along with it. And a false peace, it's temporarily short term it seems like it's better, but it does erode my own joy. And in the long term, I think it's actually really much worse for the relationship. And it's going to erode the relationship, the joy there too. So. So yeah, I think being honest with ourselves and I think is it also in Proverbs it talks about being a joyful giver. Somebody helped me here. Right. So is that, is that just a world saying, I don't know, but it helps here.

Okay.

All right. There you go. Okay. Thank you, Elaine. Biblical scholar to the rescue. So I think being. Figuring out what can you give joyfully and giving that some thought. What can you give joyfully? How there may be some stretching yourself. Right. So we're not walking in selfishness and we're remembering and service at Christmas also often is going to bring joy. Not for everybody, but often. So, so there, there's the capacity to stretch ourselves, but to also think about what can I do joyfully and to, to be honest about what I can't. Right. So maybe I can come to that party. But I'm only going to stay for an hour or two. I don't want to do the six hour thing. Cause that's just too much for me. Is that going to disappoint some people? Yeah, but, but I can tell them, well, hey, I really love you and I'm just, just tired and this is what I have to give this year. And I can do this joyfully and, and I'm going to have to go through with that. Right. And there might be some waves, but I think in the long run, again keeping in mind that long term perspective, that's better for real joy in both individual and the relationship in the long term, I will also Say with boundaries, I've learned it's not only setting them, but holding them. So put yourself in a position where either you can hold them, right. You're going to their house and you can leave, or you know how you're going to enforce them. Right. So you know what you're gonna do then when the boundary is violated, because that's an important part there.

Also an exit strategy from the. That not just from Christmas.

Yeah. Yeah.

Here we are at MU talks ending with, look, there's much more apparently to Christmas. There is hope, there is peace. And joy is possible. It is truly possible. And I'm very thankful, very thankful for Kristen's presence here. And I will invite you to have concluding thoughts. I'll start with Renee, Rob. And then we will have the final word from Kristen.

Yeah, thanks, Kristen, so much for all of that. The thing that I just kept hearing the whole time that you were sharing with us and giving us your wisdom was that as we're celebrating Advent and thinking about joy, that that joy comes because of Advent, that it's all about presence. I mean, we can. We as Christians, the presence of Jesus with us, the presence now of his Holy Spirit with us, that that is the source of our joy. And so tapping into that in whatever way God has wired us, since we're all wired differently, whatever way God's wired us, that's what we tap into. And even to extend that even further into realizing that our presence then with others and with ourselves, like being really present, I think is like the linchpin. It branches off into lots of different directions, but it's the starting place. So thank you for bringing that and kind of agreed.

You should just do this. Agree. That's so good, Renee.

I love it. Yeah, no, the joy is a discipline. That's all awesome. Like, that's terrific. And. And Al, every time we talk, I always enjoy it because you always open my eyes up to some things. I'm like, oh, I hadn't thought of that. That's a good point. And last thought, I think your guy needs to go study preaching at Multnomah University. I don't think the text. I don't think the author is trying to get about the cow.

I don't think that was essentially, hey, man, I don't question the sermon. I just repeat it.

I think that's great. I love all of that. I sort of think Renee should have the last word. But I would, I would say in response to your cow story in the book the Path of Life, Rich how talks about how we think of agape, right? You guys are familiar with the idea of agape love, this highest form of love that like, encompasses and transcends all of them. Thank you, C.S. lewis. That that's what joy is to pleasure. That joy is this higher form. And it. And it so much transcends all of them. And so that I think is we come back, back to this baby and to this God who would send the baby and ask for that much deeper to develop, not only over Christmas, but ongoing this much deeper joy that encompasses and transcends all the little pleasures.

Dr. Kristen White is a professor at Multoma University and also has a good number of courses on multomaplus.com so if you want to hear more, there's an absolute wonderful course on preventing suicide that I would highly recommend. Recommend everybody. Thank you for being with us, Dr. White. And Rob, will you take us away, please?

Okay. The previous podcast has been Every time. Every time. It's just a collection of friends sitting around a table sharing thoughts, not the official views of Multnomah University or its affiliates. Don't think lowly of them.

Thank you for being with us.

SA.