Advent Series | Rediscovering Peace With Dr. Karen Fancher

Oh, yeah.

No, I. It's one of my favorite songs.

Muta sounds. Yeah. Welcome back.

Welcome back to a new episode of MU Talks. You know, we're excited to be here in the studio of Portland, in the studio of Portland, Oregon. Although my university, we are in our second series in. In our first series of Advent, but in our second episode with Advent, and we're bringing to you a conversation about a very important topic. I'm going to let Renee introduce our admin, why are we doing this series? And then tell us who is our guest speaker today.

Yes, the Advent series. We are excited about this. This is our second week here, here at MU Talks. We want our discussions to be part of this preparation time for us and for you, our listeners. Advent is traditionally a time when Christians prepare their hearts and minds to focus on and celebrate the arrival of the Messiah. During the four weeks of Advent, we at mutalks are going to focus our discussions on the traditional themes of Advent, Hope, peace, joy and love. And specifically as they meet us today in our everyday Life here in 2021. Last week, we discussed the first theme, which was Hope with Dr. Carl Kutz. He provided so much insight and wisdom to that discussion as we explored the theme of hope in Wisdom in Ecclesiastes. If you haven't had a chance to hear it yet, please go and listen to it. It was a rich and uplifting discussion. We highly recommend it. This then is our second week of Advent and we are focusing on the theme of peace. We have as our special guest today, Dr. Karen Fancher. Welcome.

Hey, thanks for having me.

At Multnomah, Dr. Fancher integrates the discipline of biblical studies and professional counseling and intercultural studies as she seeks to help students use their gifts and passions to invest in God's redemptive purposes in this world. She's also served as a bilingual teacher, professional counselor, dean of students and professor. She also had the privilege to engage with churches in South Sudan, seeking to partner with them in providing community based support for those impacted by the trauma of war. Our listeners can hear from Dr. Fancher on her podcast, Development and Justice. Welcome again, Dr. French. We're really glad that you're here.

Thank you so much. It's fun to be with you all.

So exciting.

There's energy at this table.

So, yeah, that's how we roll on MU talks. And you heard it first on MU talks. We have Dr. Fincher with us and for the purpose of our conversation, it's okay if we call you Karen?

Absolutely.

Okay. So Dr. Karen Fincher is with us today. And Karen is an absolute, brilliant, wonderful member of our community. I always Get Insp. By Dr. Fencher and the work that she does. And we're gonna. More than the. The bio that we just read. We're gonna get a rapid fire in the beginning of this instead of doing it at the end. So we're gonna start with rapid fire. Anybody has questions for the. To start this with rapid fire.

Okay. Hard one. Favorite class you've taught.

This is funny. Conflict, refugees and complex disasters. Which sounds so heavy, but such important issues. And to think together with students actually love that class.

Okay. If you could live anywhere in the world. This is my favorite question. I always like to know if you can live anywhere in the world. Money was not an issue. You can live anywhere in the world. Where would you live?

That's so hard.

I know.

Can I change it daily?

You can change it daily today.

Oh. So I'm going to buy around the world plane ticket. And month by month, I'm going to live in key cities. I'd love to spend time in Vienna, Austria, in Brussels. I love to spend. I love in the Middle East. I'd love to spend time in Jordan. I think that would be beautiful. The hospitality of that culture. But actually I had a professor named Bruce Fung and he always said, there's no place in the world I'd rather be. There might work. God's called me. So I actually love living here.

Yeah. Also Canada and Romania also.

And France. They didn't get on the 360 intercultural studies.

Like you could. You could talk me into almost anywhere. So.

Yeah, I should have known. This question is loaded for somebody that is passion about the world.

What is your favorite Christmas tradition?

Ooh, these are good. You know, I love reading the Christmas story together. We used to do it when I was young and we'd all read like four verses and sit around together and read the story of Jesus. And then we would sometimes try to sing. And that was a very poor choice in my family. But. But reading the scriptures together was really beautiful.

So do you want a hard question or easy question?

Give up.

Give me a hard one.

Celebrity you'd least like to marry.

That's a hard question.

Is that terrible?

I feel like I dissed. Now I'm gonna. I'm talking about peace building and you're asking me to diss.

Someone said a hard one.

It's a test.

Well, it doesn't mean they're not a good person. They're just not the person for me. Right. So the celebrity that I Would least like to marry. I don't even know.

This is a terrible question.

I know, I know.

Can I go to the easy question?

I'm going to come back at the end of the podcast with a good answer for you. I can't do it. Right.

The easy question. Food you'd most like to eliminate from Thanksgiving. Like, you know, people have this for Thanksgiving. You're like, no, this should not be eaten.

Yeah. Probably the cranberry sauce.

Cranberry sauce. That hit you. Did that hit you personally? Scratch her off the list or just the gravy.

Gravy ruins all the beautiful, tricky. Do you think? I'll. I'll go with gravy.

That was controversial.

All right, Gravy. Okay. If you could have. If you could have lunch with one person from history.

That's a good one.

From history.

And you know what? Let's make it easy. No Bible. No Bible characters. No Bible characters. No Bible characters.

No relatives.

You can.

You want.

Okay. Well, yeah, but no bio characters.

Especially as we're talking about peace. And in light of our current world, I'd love to sit down with Martin Luther King.

Oh, man.

Yeah, it'd be interesting.

Wow.

Or Gandhi. They'd be interesting, too.

Well, I'm thankful for you, really entertaining these conversations from. From famous people all the way down to what you're gonna eat for Thanksgiving and Christmas. You've entertained all these discussions. I am particularly interested in. In hearing your thoughts on peace. You've dedicated a big portion of your life and you teach this. And Lord willing, at Multnomah, we are going to put together with the new Wine center for Integration and Culture Engagement on. In a community event on peace building.

Yeah.

But I would. I would just love to hear your thoughts on this. As we are in the season of Advent and I grew up in a different place where the world, just our world or the world I live in, just shut down for Christmas. And for, like, beginning of December, just the world just slowed down completely. There was not much in the stores where I grew up, so it was not commercialized, but really, truly in the. People would get their festive clothes on early on in December. It would just. It would just start slowing down, and you could feel that you're entering a different season. I don't feel that way in us all the years that I've lived here. It's. It's very different. It picks up somehow, and it only ends a little bit before Christmas. And you're trying to catch up and try to figure out some things in life and and that's why I'm exc. About this Advent series, for us to really think through these strong principles that Renee put together. This. This rhythm of touching on the foundational pieces. And I'm very thankful for that. So no introduction. Let's just go straight into it. And then we're gonna go back and forth. So microphone is yours on peace. Thoughts that you have any thoughts on peace?

Okay, well, I'm just gonna start it. I loved that we're thinking in terms of the Advent because Jesus turned our whole understanding of peace upside down. And I'll. I'll just start. You know, when you think of is. And it says the people who walked in darkness have seen a great light to those who dwelled in deep darkness on them. A light has shown in this. This light in the darkness that I feel like we almost can tangibly feel the darkness in our current contemporary society as well. And that Jesus entered into the tensions, into the world. And then in Isaiah 9, I'm going to read just 5 through 7 because we often don't read verse 5. For every boot of the trampling warrior in battle torment. And every garment rolled in blood will be burned as fuel for the fire. For unto us a child is born. That right before the announcement of this. This prophecy of the Messiah, it's acknowledging the incredible devastation in our world. And we have so many people who have been engaged in the current conflicts and war. And to know that that's all going to be burned for us. For unto us a child is born. To us a son is given. The government shall be upon his shoulder. His name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. And on the increase of his government and of peace, there will be no end. And it goes on and just talks about how he establishes his throne with justice and with righteousness that his. He sets things right. Right. Jesus sets things right. And he starts by setting things right in our heart. And as I think about this season, we want peace to be the absence of tension or the absence of conflict or the. And. And Jesus entered into tension. He entered into darkness. There's this deep acknowledgment of the. This. The pain in this world. But then it says he's the Prince of peace. He enters into our. Into our current messy, uncertain, fragmented world. And I think that I just want to start with that, that that's who he is. My peace in Jesus isn't separating myself from the tensions, but inviting him into those tensions and that he is currently teaching us to be agents of his peace in this world, but that ultimately my peace starts in Jesus so that the world cannot, it cannot rob me of the peace I have in Christ because even though I will grieve and walk in tension and walk in uncertainty. So I love that. And then again in. I'll just add one more thought here on Luke 2, when it talks about the Annunciation, right, When the angels, the angel of the Lord appeared to the shepherds and he says, I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people. For unto you is born this day in the city of David a savior who is Christ the Lord. And here he is, this big babe lying in class, and then it says, glory to God in the highest and on earth, peace among those whom he has well pleased. So there's this knowing the glory, the goodness of God and then on earth, right? Not just later in this heavenly reality, but on earth, peace among those with whom he's well pleased. So I think, just starting, that our peace starts with Jesus, right? And Advent is just a beautiful time to remember that again when this world is speaking everything about peace, even in the church, if we're honest.

Well, go ahead, go ahead.

That's. That's good stuff. So, you know, I'm a Mennonite and peace has always been, you know, the, the way of peace kind of thing, you know, and somehow like I only worked in a Mennonite church when I got into my 40s, but it, it's been part of me. I don't know if it's genetic, I don't know, I just, if it's the heritage. But I just, I love peace and it hurts my heart to see the world right now. What do you think? What's this? I mean, the solution is Jesus. What, what do you like, if you could say something to the people of America, to the, I mean, the people arguing on social media, to the politicians. What, what, what advice would you give? What, what would your heart want to say?

Well, I think that we have false notions of peace and they're often very self centered. They're what I want to feel while in the world where it's really this shalom, this, this right relationship with one another in ways that are redemptive, not in ways that are easy, that are avoiding conflict, that are, or that are just self affirming, but that are actually restorative. I love the word restorative because I think that piece of Jesus is restorative. So Miroslav Wolf, he says there's two primary things that we need to Think about, and that is the universality of sin that before I. And the primacy of grace. And so what I think that if I want to speak, starting with the church in America, to say, to seek peace, I need to start by saying, lord, where am I responding in ways that are not restorative. Right. Rather than the pointing of the finger. And it's them out there and they're a threat to my identity, they're a threat to my well being to say, how can I be a redemptive person in the way that I engage with the other? And rather than this either blame shifting or defensiveness, we should be secure in Jesus. And when I'm secure in Jesus, I can see the other person, even the one who may be placed in, in worldly terms, in opposition to me, as one that God loves, that God is working, seeking to work redemptively in their life as in my life, that we both need, we both need to acknowledge our sin and the primacy of grace, that we start with humility. I think when Jesus, whatever he does to confront us, it's always to draw us toward him. Right. It's always restorative. So I think when I, when I. Of this current climate, I often see Christians on the defensive and we can be the most secure people in the world because even, even if my life is taken, I am in the arms of Jesus and forever in his presence. And he's invited me to walk with integrity, to reflect, to learn to reflect his character. Right. I don't always know how to do it in this very complex world, but in, in this complexity, he's teaching me to depend on him, to look to his example of one, you know, the, the uniqueness of Christianity. Love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you. What, what a compelling and powerful model. And yet we're often, rather than loving our enemies, we are finding ways to shame them, to prove them wrong publicly, to, to show ourselves right rather than righteous. And I don't mean righteous in a prideful way. I mean, I want to relate to people rightly in ways that reflect God's heart and that in it, it's long suffering, it takes, it's a work towards building understanding and it's sacrificial. But I'm working to. I think if witness was our primary goal rather than rightness, that changes the whole way that I engage with the other. Yeah. So there's so much we could say. Maybe I'll. You. You had written this question, Renee, what are some, you know, biblical mandates? I mean, there's so many. But speaking truth in love like there is truth to be spoken. But if people know we love them, they can hear it. And often we might even be speaking the trut but we're speaking it in a way that doesn't represent the heart of the one who is true, right? And so speaking truth in love to, to, to, to as much as is possible, be at peace with all men realizing I won't. It's not always possible in this fallen world. But I seek to be an instrument, an invitational person into a piece that doesn't call me to lose my identity, that doesn't call me to lose my convictions, but calls me to respect and listen, to see the dignity in the other and invite them into engagement in ways that we can seek truth together, that we can seek what is redemptive together. I'm not imposing, I'm not defensive, but I am walking with integrity. And those are hard. If we, if we're honest in this current, we're invited to a hard work and I think we want it to be simple. It's our discipleship. I think to be a person of peace is an act of discipleship. It's an outcome of discipleship.

When I think about the body of Christ being at peace in the midst of conflict, I wonder what can people, Christians of other cultures teach us? I mean, there are Christians around this world that have lived in deeper, more traumatic conflict, longer lasting conflict. What do those believers, what can they teach us if we look to their example, do you think?

Yeah, and I think first of all, there are profound lessons to learn. But second, I never group all people into one bucket. Each person's experience is different. And sometimes we glorify the suffering of others. I don't want to do that. I don't want to have deep compassion. But to say we do learn something from those who are faithful and long suffering in areas of tension. And so when I think globally, the first thing I would say is that in the midst of either poverty or tension, that often the simple power of the gospel is much more evident because we're focusing on who Jesus is. In the midst of those circumstances, there are cultural constructs that I think also help to frame the way that we understand Jesus as our Prince of peace. There's many cultures that actually practice hospitality as a deep, deep, deep value, inviting people into your world, even people who are different. So I'm not talking yet about suffering, but one of the most beautiful examples that I had of this was a few years ago. I had an opportunity to travel through the Middle East. And we were traveling during Ramadan. And as they were, we had a bus driver who was Muslim who was celebrating Ramadan. And he didn't drink or eat all day, but he was driving us in heat. He was taking care of us. He tried to make sure we had food. It was very humbling. You know, we kind of hit and tried to. As we were eating. But when, at the end of the day, when he broke the fast, he had his wife bring us this special juice that they took together to celebrate the breaking of the fast. And he wanted to share his holiday, his. His moment of rejoicing with us, even though we didn't share in his same faith. And I think there was this inviting someone from a different background into that which I delight in. I think, as Christians do, we invite maybe people who aren't believers into our celebrations, into. Into our shared joy and reality, this gift of hospitality that's invitational, that crosses boundaries. I think we have a lot to learn from other cultures, even people from other faiths, about this foundational truth of Christianity that is hospitality. And then I think in long suffering, I'll give one other example, and there are many. And I'm tying this back to Christ, to Christmas again. And we could talk about peace so very, very broadly. But I think that when you are in a place where there has been deep, deep pain, even death, right? We see. We see the deep, deep outcomes of enmity for what it is, and it is a spiritual destruction force. We are created to live in shalom with one another, to want the flourishing of one another. And so when. When I. I now I look wherever there's divisions in a society, and I say, that's spiritual warfare. That's destruction. And so I was. I was in South Sudan. We'd had a conference, and I got to spend. I left two days before Christmas. I was right there right before Christmas. And as they were sharing about the deep, deep suffering that they'd experienced, the preciousness of Jesus entering into that and the hope of. Of reconciliation because of who Jesus was was so profound. Um, I was at a conference where there were people from two separate tribes that had been in deep, deep enmity, and they both had had family members killed by the opposite tribe. Two pastors came up and took one another's hands and said, we are one in Jesus, and we need to bring through the church to bring unity to our country. And these were people. This wasn't light or trite. This was a deep and profound moment. One of them was in a refugee camp Fleeing for his life. These were people that had had dear ones who had been killed within recent weeks. Right. And yet they came together and said, we're one in Jesus. And they held up a cross, that. That beautiful cross.

Yeah.

So when we finished this conference in South Sudan, and I'll go back to my first story. It was a couple days before Christmas. I asked them what they were going to do for Christmas. And they were going to gather under the trees. They were going to have a big shared meal together, and they were going to sing and dance and worship Jesus. And it was very simple and it was profound. It was remembering who our Savior was in the midst of our pain. And there was. There's this deep joy and rejoicing that is not contingent upon their circumstances right there. They're just singing and dancing because of who God is, not because He. Everything was immediately corrected. But he entered in. He was with them, and he gave them a hope and a purpose in the midst of their pain and a hope beyond. Well, I flew out of South Sudan, I hopped on a plane, and I had. I'm a maximizer of my travel. So I made a stopover in Paris. I thought, okay, if I'm going to be Rob, you'd love this. If I'm going to be traveling back, let's. Let's enjoy beauty along the way. So I stayed overnight in Paris, and I ran down to see the Notre Dame at Christmas, and I thought, oh, this will be lovely. This will be beautiful. So I'd come from people gathering under a simple tree. I ran to the Notre Dame was filled with tourists who were paying money to go up and see a view of the city from above. It felt. Of course, there were some people who worshiped, but it felt very empty, huge and empty. And Christmas felt very touristy. And I. And I left and I thought, oh, we've lost that deep joy, that exuberance. And then I hopped on my plane, and it was Christmas Day now. And maybe the people who fly on Christmas aren't people who celebrate Christmas, but there was nothing of celebration or joy. And I got into Atlanta, and we were yelled at in a megaphone of where to line up and where to go and. And. And there was just this sense of just utility and people wanting to get where they needed to go. Oh, and I forgot. I stopped in Dubai, and they had. They had huge malls filled with Christmas items to buy, even though people there didn't celebrate Christmas. It was the commercialization. So I saw the simplicity under a tree. I saw a great commercialization I saw empty cathedrals. I saw people traveling and stressed. And I came home and I thought, how do I want to worship you today, Jesus? You know, what does Christmas really mean? And I think that simplicity of under a tree or around a table, reading the story, remembering who Jesus is, and the preciousness of that celebration was framed in a whole different way for me. From traveling from South Sudan to Dubai to Europe to home. Yeah.

And that concludes our podcast. No, no, no, no. But it's meaningful. I think it's powerful. I think it would be sufficient to stop here, to just let that have a strong echo in everybody's mind. How do you celebrate Christmas? How do you make it meaningful? Sometimes we think if we don't have enough, if the kids don't have 10 gifts, if the. If this. If we don't have a huge meal or a lot of friends or a strong community, all the things that we're lacking, that means it's not meaningful and it takes away from it.

Yeah.

I have a thousand questions and 1500 thoughts. This is a. This is not an easy thing.

I knew you'd have more thoughts than you had questions.

I do.

I do. Well, you got me there. But the reason is, I just.

It's.

It's.

Peace is messy. Peace is messy, is really messy. I. I do wanna. I do want to tackle a myth that. That I think it's. It's a strong myth in our society. And I'm curious, what do you think about it? That. That it's. It's harder to destroy than to actually unite. It's harder to. To destroy something than to heal. And the ones that are involved in that activity, the. The ones that are involved in peacemaking are weak, and they're people that are trying to avoid conflict. And they're people that. And. And I find that to be a very interesting, lopsided. Lopsided thing. The people that are actually committed to. To relational peace and to their own peace and avoiding things that just take away their peace and all this. They are seen as. As lesser than somebody that just creates chaos and is flashing in front of everybody and all this. And there is the stigma. There is this thing of trying to unite and trying to bring peace in the environment where you are or in your home and all this. And. And I just want to speak against that publicly and say, I think it's harder to heal than to destroy.

Absolutely. And I think this is the. This is the image that Jesus brought to us. Right. When it talks about Prince of Peace. He's this baby in the Cold in a divided world with Roman oppression. And I, I think, think that this, the bringing of peace is this entering in in a way that's costly, right? His whole life journey was costly unto the cross. And of course then he resurrected and he provided peace with the Father and peace with one another in Christ Jesus. But I think that the costly journey of being willing to, to let your. Your assumptions be examined, to hear the other, to respect our differences, but to seek the truth that unites and that can lead us forward is, Is very, very costly. And healing, it's so much easier to separate. That's why we have right now all of these. You have affinity with those who believe like you and you see the others as a threat. But to enter in and to see the complexity that actually I love that Miroslav Wolf quote. Again, we all have sin, right? We all have things that have led us to defenses and that often when I'm wounded, I'm most in danger of reacting in ways that wound others, right? That's just the pattern of what takes place. And so if I want to be restorative, I need to be very humble and to let God speak to me. I'll give a, maybe another just simple example of how I've been shaken to think of what it means to try to enter into the complexity of our human journeys. This one might sound crazy, but I think brings to light and that is, you know, we have very simple narratives of the good guy and the bad guy, and the good guy needs to make the bad guy understand them and then everything will be right. And when I was spending time in Lebanon a few years ago and I was talking with people who had experienced the, the tensions in the region, some said, you know, there are, there's definitely people who are trapped in destructive ideology. There's been horrific things that have happened with isis. But they said some of these young boys that get caught up in this conflict have two choices. One is they fight for a government where they may not get pay and they may be killed, or they fight for this organization that may pay for health care for their mother or food when they don't have it and they're trying to survive that maybe instead of seeing this person as evil, to say, what fear? Where are they trapped? What is. And I'm never, never, never excusing destructive actions. I'm please. Like we hold one another to account, but we see the person as a human being who's also wounded, who's also in need of restoration, that, that there are, there's. That we all need the restoration of Jesus. And we start to see that person through the eyes of Christ rather than through the eyes of my woundedness only. And I think that takes great humility, great grace. And, and that's where it starts. I try to understand the other, their journey, what's brought them there. And then Lord, help me to see my blind spots and why I'm so reactive. And that's costly. That's costly.

Fun fact. I don't know how fun it is, but it actually took a few weeks longer with the Vietnam War after they agree, they, they, you know, they said they're going to make peace because they couldn't agree on the shape of the table to that to come to. Right. It prolonged the war by a few weeks. And sometimes there's some, there's small things that actually prevent us from getting to a place of shalom, from getting to a place of, of peace really with ourselves, with the others, with God. And, and I want to speak to that. I want, I want to give you an opportunity to speak to that, this Christ. What would be some things that you, you see either when you sit at the table to do peace, reconciliation, or what are some of those small things that you know, the shape of the table or some of the things that really prevent people from reaching even maybe this, this Advent season starting somewhere where you can actually reconcile either with your relationship in your God, in, in the world that you are with, you know, however you want to reconcile it and whatever. We want to bring peace to thoughts to that.

Yeah, a couple. First of all, I would say our internal peace. Like to be a person of peace is to find peace in Jesus. And we, we want to make that an emotion. We want to make that a very simple thing. And I think that it starts by. At the table. Some of you will be missing people this Christmas. Some of us may not have a large table to go to. You may not be able to travel. And so I would say the first thing is that, that to have peace is not to be absent from grief, it's to invite Jesus into it. And I think there needs to be a space for those who have experienced loss to grieve and to know God as our comforter. Right? The peace comes in him meeting us in the pain. And then it takes inviting, asking God to meet us in that and to be willing to step out when we're feeling isolated to say, who also can I see in pain? How can I serve them? And to remember who God is. And then again, I mentioned that to seek the lens of Witness, rather than, can I convince this person, how can I demonstrate God's character to this person? How can I be compassionate to understand what is driving this response? The anger, the fear, the whatever might be going on, and can I listen carefully to that? So starting with a piece that I can grieve, I need to remember God's faithfulness. I need to. To be able to reflect upon the lens of witness, to ask him to help me engage in ways that honor him, delight in our salvation. But then, as I come to others, I really think that the key, the starting place around the table is when I see someone who's very reactive to try to listen and to say, where have they been hurt? Where do they feel threatened? Where do they feel? And I might not even be able to answer that, but it starts to give me compassion. And then I would start to pray for that person, right? And to see that, to say, God, there's deep anger, there's deep. There's a deep sense of a lack of safety or insecurity. God, meet them. And how can I speak in ways that counter that? Before we ever try to get into a more difficult conversation, I also think we need to step back sometimes and find our commonality again before we try to engage or convince. Like, where do I. Where. What are our shared experiences? What are. How do we. How do we love one another? How do we laugh together? How can we step back? So that conflict doesn't define our relationship, but we start to find the security to. To address in safety some of the things that we've talked about. And the first one, be quick to listen, slow to speak, slow to become angry. Listen, listen, listen. Tell me why you feel that way. Wow. What, what. What led you to come to that conclusion? What have you been reading? Can I share another perspective? Right. Never shaming, never, Never maligning, but really seeking to understand.

Yeah, that happens to me in traffic. Whenever. Whenever somebody does something in front of me in a different car, and I get really frustrated. There's a voice. It's a really beautiful voice. Her name is Diane, is my wife right now. And the one thing that she says is, I've seen you do that too. And it just stops everything. I mean, well, you know, there's a few minutes of, like, what? No, when. But then he comes like, ah, you know, and it just. It stops. I still honk, I still get frustrated. But there's a. There's a reality of the fact that, why am I really so frustrated?

Why?

When somebody does something, and I know that I've done it too. And not today, but I've done it yesterday or the day before. Great thoughts. I'm so thankful for this one. One thing that I wanted to say is because Karen and I share a passion for South Sudan. And we've been in the land, we've sat under the tree and somebody said, if you've been touched by the sands of Africa, you'll never be the same and you will always return. There's just something interesting because I've been there a few times already. You always go back somehow. But the image that I've seen there was powerful. Is how much it costs to make peace.

Yeah.

And the fact that the hand that makes peace has to hold a gun. And UN is a strong force over there, but they still have to have guns. They still have to. And then you have a prince of peace that can somehow restore. Restore peace in our lives, even in countries, even in lands that. That come to him with. And his hands hold only have holes. No guns, no force, no nothing. And we really underestimate the power that this prince of peace can restore. An entire land, not just a heart or a community, but an ent. Country or a land that actually submits to his principles and his rule. And it was such a stark image of how much effort goes into making a. A temporary perceived peace that is there that always breaks apparently so easily. And grievance is grieving our hearts. Always how fast that peace goes away in South Sudan.

Yeah, well, and I think that's. That again, comes back to our construct of peace. Is it just the absence of violence? You know, you, you can do something to stop violence, but that's not really peace between two people. That's just a. Because the, the differences, the threat, the, the lack of understanding is, is still. These root issues are still at play. And so I think that if you think of peace building as the absence of conflict or, or that peacekeeping, peace building is initiative early on in the relationship. Right. To try to create avenues where we understand and recognize the dignity of the other and where we walk in integrity with our values and our identity while responding in ways that are restorative with the other. I think that's really important. I don't lose my identity in order to have peace. I think that's a false concept and it's a false peace.

Nor.

So I don't have to conform to the other, but I do let the other impact me. I humbly listen, I reflect, I look for my blind spots. But I'm. I'm coming fully to the table. Who I am. I'm trying to meet this person, who they are. And then how do we engage in ways that foster flourishing, that. That seek that which. And I do believe because we're all made in the imago dei, there are certain restorative fundamentals that we're all drawn to. If we can find those as foundations for engaging together in our society and from there seek to be witnesses of God's grace.

I hope this has blessed you this Advent season. Any concluding thoughts?

Rob?

Renee, if not, go ahead.

Yeah, I just want to say thank you for that. I mean, I feel like I could go back and listen to this over and over again and just pull out more and more. I'm just walking away thinking that as. As I see those words, you know, peace on earth all over for Christmas, how it can just be something different. It cannot be about my own individualistic feelings or emotions, like you said, but of this thing that I get to participate in and come to fresh learning about other people and, and bringing myself with integrity. And I think that's a really exciting way to approach it during this Advent season.

I love how you stated that. And that's. That's actually who we're invited to be, that because his spirit is now in us. If he's the prince of peace, he's asking us to be vessels of his peace as. As we deal with our grief and complexity Right. In our humanity. But that's his grace. I'll add one tiny thought, and it's one of my favorites. When you talked about being around the table, Elaine. It's that a word spoken aptly. Right in the right way and at the right time. Often we come in with our agendas and we. We want to. We want to speak and make everything right. But it's listening, it's waiting upon the Spirit and in the right way and in the. Speaking in a way that meets that person where they're at. And I think that takes great humility and we do need to depend on the Holy Spirit. But. Yeah, may He. May he fill us with his peace in the midst of troubled times. And may he use us to be instruments of peace. What a beautiful way to celebrate Christmas. Yeah.

And that's our desire and wish for everybody that has listened to this episode, on the second episode in our Advent series and Karen has modeled it. Right. This, I think, is the most peaceful episode we've had in. In two seasons. Right, Rob? This is the most peaceful, very peaceful. Well, thank you. Rob is going to do something for us that is quite important. It's a great, great disclaimer. And once Again, thank you, Dr. Fincher, for being with us today. Renee, Rob, and Rob, take it away.

The preceding podcast is brought to you you by Renee, Aline and Rob. It was not the official comment of Mal University.

Nope.

Please don't sue the school.

That is a strong disclaimer. Thank you, everyone.