Melting Pots, Mosaics, and Our Desire to Belong with Dr. Jessica Taylor

Oh, yeah.

Ladies and gentlemen, ladies and gentlemen, he is back. Mr. Rob Hildebrand. I'm not going to put a French accent on that. He is back from France. He is back with us on MU Talks. Very excited about that. Rob, we really missed you. And here we go. Renee, I think we have a very special guest today. Welcome back to MU Talks, everybody. Renee.

Yeah, that's right. Today on MU Talks, we welcome Dr. Jessica Taylor, Multnomah University's Vice President of diversity and inclusive development. Dr. Taylor's professional background is in counseling and coaching. And here at Multnomah University, she's helping to lead the way by fostering changes that will lead Multnomah to being a place where all students get to feel a sense of belonging while. Welcome, Dr. Taylor. We're thrilled to have you with us.

Thanks so much for having me today. Excited to be with you as well.

Well, I am thrilled. I've been privileged to work with Jessica, with Dr. Taylor for the last two and a half years. And I got to see, I got to see Jessica in action. I got to see Jessica leading the university through some very, very, very challenging times in the world, in the academia. And I call myself blessed to have witnessed her leadership. And that's why I'm excited to have Jessica with us today talking about a very important subject. So let's just get to know Jessica a little bit. A little bit. Just a little bit before. And, and at the end we're going to have the rapid fire session that every guest of MU Talks goes through, the rapid fire session of MU Talks. The most difficult of challenges to go through. But Jessica, tell us just a little bit about yourself before we go into this topic. Are you originally from Oregon? Tell us a little bit about yourself.

Yeah, originally born and raised in Portland, actually, as is my husband. And we live in Fairview, Oregon with our two little girls, Eliana Grace and Addison Taylor. And they are awesome. They're 6 and 8. And so being a mom is one of the greatest joys of my life. My kids are funny and snarky, just like their mama. And so we get to share in all the joys of child rearing together and do this diversity work, this inclusion work inside and outside the church. And I love getting to bring just that sense of belonging again inside the church, but also outside the church where the world has a certain way of doing things and certain standards. But I think we just have a more perfect way and love sharing that with the people around me.

Yeah, that is so exciting. It's good to get to know you. I know you and I haven't talked much and I'm really enjoying getting to know you every time I get the opportunity. So really thankful to have you here this morning. We want to talk about a really important topic that I know you're passionate about and that it, and from what I can tell, it, it fuels what you do here at Multnomah. And that topic is belonging. We as people all have this longing, you'll excuse the rhyme for belonging, right? We're driven by this, we desire this. It's just part of who we are. And so I want to know from you just whatever you have to share with us on the topic. But how did this begin? Maybe for you, where did this passion for this topic come from? And where is it taking you?

Thank you so much. I think my formal background is in counseling, is in coaching, is in basically dealing with breakdowns when people don't have belongings. And I am what you would call an up the river person that instead of pulling people out of the river downstream, I want to go up the river and see, hey, what's the actual problem? And the source of so many things I found is a lack of belonging, a lack of community, a lack of inclusion. And so it makes me really passionate again to find the source of issues instead of just coming when things are already broken and say, how can we keep things from getting that way in the first place? And if they've gotten that way, how do we repair things? And so it really comes, I think, from my love for people, also my own story. I'm a biracial individual, and so I am black and white and neither black enough nor white enough. And so I think that that has really colored my experience as well to say I understand what it's like to not feel a sense of belonging, to not feel like there is a box with a label that fits correctly. And so this messy kind of in between space that I found myself in growing up really made me passionate to help people find or create space for themselves where they felt like, hey, the status quo doesn't have a box for me, doesn't have a space or a label that describes all that I contain. And then realizing that for myself and for other people, how important that is to finding our identity, to understanding who we are in Christ, to being able to connect across community. And so it just became something I became extremely passionate about. And then in terms of the diversity conversation, recognizing that diversity does not go far enough if we just kind of have this hodgepodge of people we put together and say, hey, we've done it, we haven't. If they don't feel like they found place in the community, if they don't feel like they can lead or have voice in the community, and that that piece is often missing from the diversity conversation.

I started this podcast saying that I got a chance to witness Jessica in action in dealing and navigating very, very complex, very complex issues in, in our society, in the university, and all this also today, Multnomah University is the most diverse it has ever been. And say what you want to say, but I will credit that work a lot to, to Jessica and her team here. So, so let me, let me, let us. I want to move into, into a deeper question for you, if you don't mind. I, I got a chance to participate in a conference and the presenter introduced to us a concept that I think it was, it was, it was not a very deep concept, but it was really thought provoking. And that is the ecology of learning. And the ecology of learning had to do with the fact that if you're looking at a forest from the outside, you just see individual trees that are very. You clearly define this is a tree, this is a tree, but if you actually look underneath, you don't know which roots from what tree belong to. The ecology is so interconnected underneath that it's a whole different image underneath that forest than you have looking at the forest. And they were using this example to show this is how education is. We're looking at individual learners, but there's so much that goes into that. You have community of learning, you have situated learning, you have social learning, you have just a lot of elements that come into how we really learn, Being really challenged with that. My question, the presenter was, do we, is that ecology formed naturally by the things we put in place, or do we design an ecology? And the moment I thought we talked about, we're going to talk about belonging. The question that I have for you from your experience of what you've seen so far, is do we design?

Do we.

Are we intentionally building something that when people come here, there are, we are so inclusive that regardless of who you are, your background, what we've created here will help you belong to the university, to the community, to the community of faith that is at Multnomah, or is that formed naturally? And there's very little that we can do is by who we are, either by our mission statement, what we've put in place already that will actually either help somebody belong or really exclude somebody. I'm just curious of your thoughts on that.

Well, on a theological front, I would say we were designed for belonging. We were designed for community. And that got really messed up. And so that's why I think that we need the intentional design of belonging and community of groups that what I call zoom in and zoom out, meaning that you have affinity group, but then you go back into the larger community and then you come back into affinity with people like you, and then you go back into the larger community. And that both and is where we really start to thrive. And I would say if you look at most institutions, most organizations, if you think that belonging will happen accidentally, incidentally, or even because of the mission statement on a page, then what that belonging often will look like is a homogenous group of people. So that institution or group was formed to help feel like they belong. All that forming and norming, all of that was created with usually one group of people in mind. And so if you want to have a diverse, thriving community with all kinds of different people, you must be intentional at looking at those underlying assumptions, at saying, hey, maybe this felt like belonging for the people that were here originally, but does it feel like belonging for the people we want to invite now? And even with the best of intentions, with the best submission statements, we can really miss the nuance and complexity that new people, new voices bring into our midst. And so when you even look at the forming of our country and you talk about all men are created equal, well, there were a lot of people that were not included in our thinking of what that meant. And I might want to look back and say, oh, that's still a statement. Isn't that true? Say, was that really true for women? Was that true for people who were differently abled? Was that true depending on how old you were, your social, economic status, or your race? Not necessarily. So even when it looks good on paper, we have to go back and examine it and say, what does that really live out and look like for all the people we want to include now? I would say it's always intentional. It's messy, difficult work, and oftentimes it can trigger a shame response enough to even talk about it. Because we mean well, most of us, most of the time, we want everyone to feel included. We want there to be a sense of belonging, and we're actually trying in that direction most of the time. But it has to be an intentional thing where we get other voices around the table to help us see our blind spots and to help us see where the beautiful words on the page might not Translate to people from different backgrounds.

Wow.

Wow.

And wow again. Rob. Renee.

Yeah, I love the topic. And one of the. I mean, obviously a bunch of us in the room are youth workers, so, you know, the importance of belonging and including it on Strength Finders, including is one of my five. I just, you know, hate seeing when a person's off to the corner for whatever reason because they've been pushed there bloody is one of those things that it's so important. But like I was thinking about, one of the great reasons we're talking about is because sometimes you just don't think about it. Like, you assume, well, if I fit in, then everybody fits in, I guess. I have a bunch of questions. One of them is, what are, you know, the dominant culture? What are some things that the dominant culture does that perhaps unintentionally excludes people? That's a really broad question. Are there mistakes that the dominant culture makes that would be easy to fix, or are they pretty difficult to fix mistakes?

Rob, I love the question, and I love what you're saying. Sometimes I just don't think about it. So I think that an easy thing to do is to recognize that my way of viewing things is not always right. And when you talk about dominant culture, sometimes I use the term the white way is the way that things are kind of done and assumed that that is the right way. And really it's culturally the white way. And that's. There's nothing wrong with that. But when we assume that that is the right way, the only way, that's where we start to exclude. And so, absolutely, when we question that and say, is the way I teach are the textbooks that I use written by people of color or women or people with different perspectives. And we learn to wrestle with that even in the classroom. Like, do I make everyone raise their hand? Or how do I invite feedback and recognize that those are all cultural norms? And so if you start to question, I'm not even saying you have to change everything, but start to question and say, is any of this potentially excluding other folks? And is there a place where my worldview can be expanded? Or am I writing my narrative on top of everyone else's? Just the humility to ask that question, I think will often invite people to tell you individually for them, how you could be more inclusive to their ability or their learning style, their culture, their language. And it makes it more beautiful for everyone because we become thinkers, we become real learners, and we become empathetic kingdom people in such a beautiful way.

Yeah, I'm really nervous that's okay in your answer, as you were answering, I was thinking, wow, asking all these questions, am I supposed to do that by myself? And then you just beautifully answered that. That. Well, no, actually we have to ask those questions with other people. And I think that, I mean, that requires a lot of vulnerability, right? And willingness to. To feel that shame, maybe, or feel that embarrassment, but that in the end, we just create even more belonging with the people that we're talking to. I think that's a really beautiful picture of how can I change this? Well, actually, I can't change it by myself, but I have to join in.

Renee. I love that. And if you ever studied Dr. Renee Brown's work, and she's a shame researcher and she just dives so deep into these things. But one of the things she says is that those who have a strong sense of love and belonging have the courage to be imperfect, which can mean if you're in power or you're in the dominant culture setting, or you're a leader of any kind, and you do maybe have some belonging or a way of doing things, hopefully, then that gives you actually the courage and the platform to be imperfect, to say, hey, I'm going to mess this up, but let me pose a question. Or I've always done it this way. Are there other ways I could try it? And again, bringing that humility to the forefront and saying, I now have the courage to be imperfect. It doesn't mean I have to get it right or that I assume I have it right. I actually get more belonging and invite more belonging. The more imperfect I am, the more humble and questioning I am, because it invites other people to teach me. It puts me as a humble learner instead of a superior knower in all of the places that I am. And that inside and outside the classroom, I think that that's a fascinating way to live life.

Can I do another one?

Yes.

Okay. Yeah. So two of the four of us are immigrants here, Aline and myself. And that probably brings. Each of us bring a different spin on the topic, no doubt. And so I kind of get. I kind of get the belonging issue a little bit. Like, for example, I just came back from France and I mean, every. When I'm walking around France, every time I sit in a restaurant, every chair I sit in reminds me that I'm not French because I'm just bigger than most of those dudes, you know, like every. I call it my shame diet going over there because, you know, I like. And nobody's. Nobody's trying to be nasty to me, it's just. I walk around, I'm like, man, I gotta get back to America, but where am I going? But, yeah, so, like, I, you know, I get. Sometimes it's intentional. And the French folks have been really nice to us. And by the way, Americans have been really nice to us, too. There have been times, like, I remember I telling a story about my kids one day we came home and somebody wrote go back to Canada on our car. And we're kind of like, you know, I know Canada. Canada's not that far away. It's not that different. But as a foreigner, you're not quite, you know, you're not quite sure, or guys, like, marking you up for your accent or whatever. And a certain amount of it. I don't mind, because, yeah, I'm distinct. And every country has their national kind of like, I don't know, values and ethos, but pretty treated with a base level of respect, which, for the most part, we have been. Here's my question. Sorry, long intro. I grew up, they'd always talk in Canada about a mosaic. Like, the country's a mosaic. Everybody brings kind of their own distinctiveness to the country, and together we make a beautiful picture. And then I would hear that the United States, the image that was mostly used was the melting pot. Like, you bring your distinctiveness, and then it melts into something else. I'm interested to hear your thoughts on those two. Well, particularly the American one. Is it a good metaphor? Is it a bad metaphor? What do you think?

Yeah, Rob, and thank you for sharing just how you were feeling. I think that that's really parallel to many women, many people of color, LGBTQ folks, all kinds of people, where you're walking around a different country, maybe, but realizing it's literally not built for me. I don't physically even fit in some of these spaces, and I stick out like a sore thumb where I'm clearly the only in this category. I think you've had this parallel experience to what many of us have walking in dominant culture to say, well, I'm not going to ask everybody to order all new chairs or to do everything different, but, man, I feel highlighted in a way that doesn't feel great, even when people are kind to me. So thanks for sharing that experience. I have really always grew up with that metaphor of America being the great melting pot. And the more I have learned about mosaics or about keeping your identity and your culture whole while fitting into other pieces, the more I really associate with more of the mosaic picture than the melting pot. And here's why. Because you assimilate to something, you have to mold yourself to something. And so if it's a melting pot, that means I literally have to liquefy. I literally have to break down and become a different substance. I'm no longer a solid, I'm a liquid. To be in this melting pot with you. And I think we dilute and lose the crunchiness and the beauty and the flavor of all these other things when we melt it down and say, oh, it's all one form, now it's all liquid. And I think that that used to be how we function. We said, hey, if you immigrate here, you speak our language, you accommodate us, you learn to be American, whatever that is. And I think one of the beautiful things we see happening now is to say, yes, you can come, but we want to understand who you are and what you bring. And yes, there's a certain level of assimilation we all have to do to just live in society together. But no longer saying, hey, kill that part of you, drown that part of you so you can be part of us. I think makes us better to say, please keep the Canadian part of you. Keep your accent, keep your vision and all the beautiful things that you have, because you're my neighbor and I need that. It enriches me so much for you to be fully you, not to assimilate to what I think you should be.

Such tremendous value in that. By the way, I'm going to say it here, not at the end of our discussion. Dr. Jessica Taylor does have a course in Monoma plus called Blurring the Raceline. And I highly recommend that course. I think it's, it's a powerful, very powerful course. It's a, it's a compressed computer compacted course, two hours split into seven, seven minute lectures. But it's, it's really thought provoking for people that are really struggling to figure out who they are, where do they belong, how do, how can they talk about themselves to let people understand who they are? That's a, that's a really great course and it moves me to my, to my next question. And I am. We didn't bring you to MU talks so we can get our course questions answered, but I do welcome the opportunity to talk and really reflect on these things. We, we're celebrating Martin Luther King Day and I'm very thankful that we're celebrating that day in America. Dr. Paul Metzger, every chance he has, he quotes Martin Luther King in saying, we need to move from a culture of things to a culture of People, and, and we, we start losing the sight of people in us in many ways. But here's, here's, here's a question for you and, and I know it's, it's not an easy question, but I wanted to share and I know you can handle any hard questions when it comes to, to inclusivity and, and all this. The bri. The most brilliant minds of our generation. The most brilliant minds of our generation these days, my understanding is that they all work in marketing. The most brilliant minds moved away from, from space, moved away from innovations, moved away from. And they are now most brilliant minds. They're in marketing. Apparently that's where the money is and that's where the most innovation is being invested in and creativity. To actually, to tell a story, to actually present a story. Now, in many cases, marketing is misleading. I see the discussion of inclusivity and a discussion of belonging very prominent in marketing. Churches talk about it, corporate talks about it. The, your, you know, every, your stores. Macy's.

Right.

It starts with we believe Macy's has a, is a brand promise of we believe we see you and you know, it's, it's fascinating. So there's a lot of discussion about the come to us, you're going to belong here. A lot of promise, a lot of brand promises to talk about. What does genuine belonging look to you and look like to you? And the reason I really like this question for you is because you are tasked somehow to create, to really infuse an awareness of belonging at the university. And you've done a very, very wonderful job here and I'm very thankful for that. But what does genuine belonging, not the brand promise of belonging, what does genuine belonging look to you?

So that question excites me, that question drives me because that's the kind of community that I want to create where there's an authentic belonging, a genuine belonging, it's not cheap, there's no bait and switch, but that people come and find that and have peace in that. And I think that it comes from an ability to do the hard things, to talk about the hard things, to engage these difficult topics with courage, like a courageous faithfulness to say, I actually don't belong when people love the mask I wear. I don't actually belong when they love the mask. I have to remove the mask myself, my own vulnerability and create a brave enough community where you can remove your mask or else it's not belonging. We're just, you know, teammates. We just are playing the same game together. But everyone goes home saying, no one actually knows me. And that's tragic. I think we have a tragedy of that in the church. I think we have that in our communities as well. And so when we can get to the real thing with each other, when we can talk about what really hurts us, where we really find a. Where we really feel oppressed and angry and justified and all these different really complex emotions that we'd rather just kind of play the niceties and patty cake. Real belonging and real community comes when we take that mask off and say, hey, I'm going to sit in this with you. This is uncomfortable. We don't even agree here. Let's wrestle together. And I think that that piece of engaging, truly participating is where belonging comes. So I can't force anyone to belong, but I can invite them and continue showing them that that's real. And MLK has a quote, it says, rarely do we find men who willingly engage in hard, solid thinking. There is an almost universal quest for easy answers and half baked solutions. Nothing pains some people more than having to think. And I think that that is so true that it is painful to have to think, to have to look at my own bias and where I create a lack of belonging in someone else or to sit and think about how I have been excluded and how that actually does hurt, even though I want to pretend like it doesn't and I can take a joke and it's all fine. We both have to sit in a radical space of deeply looking in that mirror, but also deeply looking out the window at others and thinking about our human condition, thinking about how we interact with one another and how we all have the ability to carry bias and harm. And frankly, that's too painful for some people. They would rather have this kind of Disneyland, happiest place on earth experience within their community. But you go back to the hotel, your feet hurt and you realize I spent too much money and I don't really even know what happened today. And if you don't actually take with you that experience, that joy doesn't last because it was counterfeit. And so I think that that's the community, especially in the academic space that we should be creating, where it comes from wrestling with each other and coming out the other end and saying, you and I actually don't just belong to community, but we belong to each other. And that changed my whole thinking about inclusion. Recognizing the connectedness when you were talking about the interconnectedness of the forest. I love aspen trees for this reason. They are interconnected and one organism and they recognize that. So if you Cut one down, you are hurting the entire organism. And if we think about inclusion like that, then it has to matter to me how Rob experiences life as an immigrant and as a white man. That has to matter to me if I believe that he and I belong to each other and our community will be different if we feel like that. Versus me saying, I'll do me, you do you. Maybe we'll learn from each other a little bit, but really going that next level and saying we're going to do the hard stuff together because we belong to each other, not just in community.

Do you have any, like, first steps? I guess I'll call it that. That you suggest to someone who says, wow, this is really, this is really hard for me. Like, maybe I'm one of those people that hasn't spent the time thinking, do you have any first steps that you ever give people just, just where to begin so they can start to see that they, they do have the space and they do. They, they are capable of moving forward in this?

Yeah, absolutely. So I think that it starts at a heart level where we're able to examine ourselves. That's that sitting in front of the mirror and deeply looking and looking at what is called distancing behaviors. So this is what I do when I feel shame, when I feel triggered that you are hurting me. You're accusing me, you think something of me. That's not true of my character. If I do not learn to assess, assess my behavior when I feel attacked like that and then overcome that and sit in a place of empathy with hearing the impact you're sharing with me. I will never be able to have these deep conversations if someone says, hey, Jessica, you have made me feel excluded or the work that you do hurts me in this way. If I'm not able to work through, not suppress, but work through, through my own self righteousness and pride that says, are you kidding? I've dedicated my life to inclusion or whatever comes up for me. We all have those things that come up for us. And so when we don't learn to actually pick through that and say, oops, that's my pride. That's my childhood reminding me that I'm not good enough and I'm not worthy. Oop, that's my whatever it is and walk through that, I can never truly see that person. I just see those negative voices from my childhood speaking things to me or I just hear critical feedback and I don't actually get to the heart of what that person is saying. So when we look at it again, it's easy to say, go read this book or go join this club or be a social justice warrior. You cannot be part of this conversation and be unable to do self assessment and self awareness. Because some of my most brilliant aha. With other people have been when I realized, what nerve are they stepping on in me? What broken thing in me are they tap dancing on that is making me have this reaction where I'm shutting down, I'm unable to hear, I'm offended, I'm angry, I'm indignant, and I'm justifying myself. Because when I can say, ooh, that's a me issue, and walk through that, I can truly hear other people. I can truly pick up a book and read it and be offended and frustrated and disagree, but be able to walk through that and know what's going on in me. So that inner work is so critical for us being able to have this conversation. I think that's part of what's tearing our country apart is we are not doing our inner work and then we're trying to do the outer work of making it all better, but we're tap dancing on each other's very vulnerable stuff. And then our very natural human response is like freezer fawn, right? Is to say, I want to get that shame away from me, push it away with my distancing behavior so I don't have to deal with it. So I think that's this fun, fun thing to tell people that that's the first step. But it truly is the first step because nothing you read, learn, hear, engage is going to sink into your heart and be integrated into doing anything differently. If you don't understand your stuff and what this conversation can bring up in you and cause you to push away. And so that's a lifelong work of being able to hear critical feedback and say, oh, a lot of my resistance to that comes from here. And I'm going to lay that aside and I'm going to process that. And now I'm going to fully hear. And it's beautiful work, but it's hard.

We are at time. I cannot believe that our time has just gotten away from us, But I do want to have a rapid fire session because more than hearing from you, I would love the people that are the thousands and thousands of people. Rob, please don't say anything that follow AMU talks to get to know who Jessica is. So I'll let Rob start with the first question and I'm going to go to Renee and then I'm going to ask you a rapid fire question.

All right, first question is, if you had to live in one movie or television show for a week, which movie or television show would you choose?

I think I would live in the television show the Office. I find that kind of humor pretty funny. In fact, so much of it, I realize now can't be aired on TV because of inappropriateness of it. But I think that watching people is a favorite thing of mine, and I would love to just. People watch.

Favorite character. Arthur's favorite character. Oh.

Oh, That's a really great question. Oh, man. I really love Creed. He's such a creeper, and I just. I just find his. His timing, and it's just. He's always doing something crazy, and I love that. I love it.

Have you seen the one where the guy recognizes Creed and he was like, hey, you're Creed, right? It was like, yeah. He was like, how do you know me? He was like, I wrote your obituary.

Oh, see? And he's got such a backstory for tax purposes.

Whatever his backstory is for tax purposes. I faked his death. I thought that was funny.

Yes. I love it.

Oh, Creed. Renee.

Okay, what has been your favorite vacation you've ever been on?

Ooh.

So I. I am not exotic or fun. I love the resort at the mountain, 40 minutes away from Portland at the base of Mount Hood. It's quiet. There is a little hotel there that has a little hot tub and the most amazing beds and bathrobes. Like, this is. This is how low key I am, and it's quiet. And that is my favorite place to go with my family or by myself. So it's nothing exotic or cool. It's 40 minutes outside of Portland and so boring, but awesome.

Ladies and gentlemen, you're learning something about assumptions. I was seeing a pina colada next to, like, somewhere. Like, you're learning something about assumptions today.

Oh, my goodness.

If you had a parrot, what would you teach it to say?

Oh, I would definitely teach it to say, hey, girl, hey. Every time I walk through the room, hey, girl, hey. Hey, girl, hey. Just so that I have that little upbeat greeting every time I walked in. I give that greeting to everyone, male or female. Sometimes that offends people as well. But I would have someone greet me like that all the time.

Oh, man. Rob. Renee.

Any.

Anyone? More questions? Rapid fire. This is rapid fire. It's not just fire.

Do you make favorite, sir? Go ahead, Renee.

Oh, I saw the look on your face, and I thought, no, he doesn't have it. Do you make New Year's resolutions?

Absolutely not. I do Not I make goals throughout the year and then I immediately crush them so I don't wait for New Year's. Now is the time. Now is the time.

Okay, so here's my question. In the, in the Taylor household, what was the favorite gift that someone got? Like the person that was most happy about a gift. What was the gift? Any of the four of you?

Oh goodness. My husband is an avid collector of Godzilla and so anytime these figurines or play action figures, I call them toys, I get in trouble for calling them toys. Play action figures, come in the house. He is a kid in a candy shop. So my husband's Godzilla collection, anytime it's added to, he is, he is the happiest, happier than my 6 and 8 year old than anything they've ever gotten.

So here's my last question for you. I love this question. If you were the ruler of the world, who would be your top advisor and why us? Who would be your top advisor?

Wow.

Uh huh.

Well, I love that you say, I love that you say if you were so I have to like back up from the fact that I already thought I was. That's a little bit. But you know, I have an amazing friend named Mariko Gilman and she is my, she is my top advisor and so I would absolutely bring her with me anywhere. She called me the queen of everything, but really she's the queen of everything and so I would bring my friends with me and actually Mariko taught that blurring the race lines class with me and so if you want to check her out, shameless plug. And that's because she's brilliant and I think we are better together.

And Multnomah University loves Mariko and owes a great deal to Mariko. She's a gem. So Jessica, thank you for being with us on MU Talks. I, I cannot thank you enough for sharing your wisdom with us for your work in Multimo University and for your work way beyond my university in this space that needs clear voices, that needs strong voices and that needs courageous voices. And I think you qualify on all three accounts. Thank you so much for your voice, Renee. Rob, if you don't have any, any other thoughts, thank you, thank you and thank you. Please go out there to moreplus.com check out Blurring the Race Line Course with Dr. Jessica Taylor. You would not going to regret investing your time and energy in learning more from that. And we hope to have you back here on MU Talks every opportunity we have because we have not at all scratched the surface really at this massive topic. But you have given us tremendous wisdom. So thank you for that.

Thank you.

Thank you. Here we go. Here we go. Rob, are you ready? Are you ready to help us with this?

This has been a production of Mu Talk. It in no way represents the views of Mongolia University or affiliate. Please don't do it. Friends having a conversation. Stay cool. Avoid the coronavirus. Have a good day.