Navigating Collective Trauma with Danielle Render Turmaud

Foreign.

Welcome everybody. This is another episode of MU Talks. Very excited to have you with us again. I am, as you already know, with Reverend Dr. Robert J. Hildebrand, the co host and the hand signals are already rolling.

Co hosted star, I think is co hosted star, is that right?

And we have a very special guest. I think it's safe for us to say that every guest we have on mutalks is very special and we continue that legacy. And today we have a very special guest. Is Danielle Render tourman with us? Yes, I practice. I have practiced the same beautiful French name, but Danielle's and Rob is going to help us get to know Danielle. She's joined the Multoma family recently as a full time employee, but she's been with us for a while and she is an exceptional player in that psychology world. And today we are going to talk about collective trauma. So Rob, help us get to know our guest a little bit today.

Bonjour, Daniel. Comme un sava, comme CI, comme sa parle. Vous francais.

Oy un petit pou me pas common homme.

Oh man, now I gotta get my wife here because her French is better than mine. My wife and I are moving or potentially moving to France part of the year. So anyways, we bought a property. Hey, welcome here. Great to know.

How long have you been you've been.

Teaching your full time here at Maluma for a couple months. But you've been also teaching in one of the grad programs, Mac programs?

Yes, correct, correct.

How long have you been teaching with that program?

About a year. I moved to Oregon about a year and a half ago from Georgia. I'm a transplant and so I've been with Multnomah since June of last year. So about a year now.

Yeah. Do you watch a lot of football like Georgia or not? Not so much.

I come from a very big football family. But now that my husband is French, we don't watch as much football as I did with him.

That's right.

That's right. The real football or whatever. Welcome here. So been married. How long have you been married?

Five and a half years. You're quizzing me here. I almost forgot. My husband would look at me and glare at me. He remembers it better than I do.

What first attracted you to your husband? What caught your eye?

So what's really funny is actually when he started talking to me and said, hi, I'm Jean Philippe, I went, oh no, you're French. And Europeans are too. I like the accents too much. So I actually walked away. But it ended up being a really beautiful story because God very quickly showed us that what he had for us was very different from what was expected. And it was a beautiful. I'm very grateful for it.

So that's terrific. So, by the way, I'm an immigrant from Canada, so I was talking to USCIS today and the French Consulate yesterday, so I feel your pain. You guys had to do that stuff, like green cards and visas and all that stuff.

Yes, it's a process. Absolutely.

Oh, isn't it? Isn't it a process? Yeah, it is. Thousands of dollars. No, but that's. We're not talking about me, though. This is about you. And what subjects do you teach here at Multnomah?

So I am an instructor of the applied psychology program for Multnomah University Online, in addition to being an adjunct for the Masters of Art in Counseling. And so I teach, I've taught a variety of courses, including neuroscience and psychopharmacology, personality theories, Introduction to Psychology, Social psychology, and then I'm teaching some other courses this upcoming year at as well. So a variety of psychology and counseling courses.

Cool.

Welcome to the Multoma and welcome to the show.

Thank you.

Are we a show, Ali? We're a show, right?

We are a show. This is MU talks and people. Already we have thousands of people listening to us from all over the world.

Thousands.

Check that. Who is going to.

We're kind of a big deal. We're kind of a big deal.

We are kind of a big deal. But we're going to do a little X ray. And this is a personal X ray, not a professional, you know, X ray of what's happening. This is, this is day what, 1500 of this pandemic. This is day 60, some of this pandemic. And we, we've been through phases. In the beginning was the exciting phase, like, like we're staying home. And it's like, you know, crazy. And then we went through the, the job loss. We're at, you know, 36 million job losses in U.S. right now. We are, this is going to. We have partners at Multnomah University from Papua, from Papua New guinea. And we're talking with them recently and they're saying that Papua New guinea is shut down, which means that, like, it's everywhere. It's a global thing. And we know that. And also, you know, now you're going through. This has been, this has been. This is actually, it's a marathon. So all the phases of that. And as I was discussing with Daniel and we had this exciting discussion and she's Put together a course for multiple on with the exact title of our podcast today, When Our World Turns Upside Down, Talking about Collective Trauma. This is just a side conversation on her expertise. And all of a sudden I realized that maybe some of the reactions that I'm going through, maybe some of the things that I'm experiencing are not because, you know, I'm driving Diane, my wife, crazy and I'm reacting to some of the things, but there might be something happening with symptoms of collective trauma and how do we handle this, the world, you know, the craziness. So I wanted us to engage in this conversation and for Danielle to give us a little taste of our two, three hour course that is coming up hopefully next week. And for people listening to this podcast in 2021. It came out last year, but it's coming out very soon. And you can find it on multomaplus.com and, and just have a conversation on collective trauma, what it is. And you know, I have, we have some people already on Facebook live and on social media chatting and people from all over the world. Our esteemed colleague and friend, Dr. Herbert Brandenmayer from working from Austria, but working in South Sudan already. Hey, I'm here. I'm listening to your greetings and immediately sparked in my mind collective trauma that is happening through war, through South Sudan and all that. But we have a very particular, very particular kind of collective trauma that we're dealing with in a pandemic that I never thought I'm gonna live through. So Danielle, even though we introduced you a little bit with no further ado, walk us a little bit through some of the things that you've noticed that you're observing, some of the things that you poured your heart out into that course on Collectitron.

Absolutely. Well, thank you, Aleen and Rob. I'm really excited to be able to support others in providing the knowledge experience that I've had. So in addition to being an instructor and an educator, I'm also a counseling professional who specializes in working with survivors of trauma. And so the being able to support others and giving more awareness and understanding surrounding trauma, traumatic experiences, traumatic responses is something that's really near and dear to my heart because it's. Traumatic experiences are very common and in response there can be a lot of traumatic stress, a lot of consequences that come up. Now a lot of people know about the topic and concept of trauma, but collective trauma is more foreign to a lot of us. And so trauma is more of a term that's used for individuals and individual experiences where Collective trauma is a traumatic experience that's faced by a group, a society, or a community. And so, Aline, I appreciate what you said, that COVID 19 is a very unique experience of collective trauma that a lot of people don't even realize it's an experience of collective trauma. But in reality, right now, multiple societies and perhaps even our entire world is dealing with this traumatic experience and dealing in response with a variety of consequences that people can face. It's very individualized, and yet it's very powerful. When we recognize that we can be experiencing consequences of collective trauma, that that knowledge can then give us more empathy and grace and the tools to support ourself and others in response. And so going a little bit into that, so surrounding what collective trauma looks like, collective trauma, like Aline briefly mentioned, there can be a number of circumstances that can be considered a type of collective trauma, whether it's wars or pandemics or terrorism. So 911 for the United States, for example, is an example of collective trauma. For the United. The American society, there are natural disasters. There's a number of different types of collective trauma. But what's really unique about collective, well, trauma in general, but specifically with collective trauma, when you think about how people can respond, it's not only is it affecting the person as an individual, but it's affecting the entire community and society and the fabric of it. And so that adds a different layer and a different level where not only the person themselves is dealing with the consequences, but everybody around them are. The support system may look different. And for example, with COVID 19, we're not able to see people in person for a majority of us. And so that entire fabric in itself has changed with, can I see people? Can I get the support I need? And so there's a number of different factors and ways that people can be impacted, but in general, the society and how they function and interact with themselves and the entire world can change. So thinking about COVID 19, right now we're not able to travel. We're not able to really have people coming into our countries that's changing entire systems and the way we function and the way that we see things and interact with people. There's a lot that's changing and being shifted in response to this time of collective trauma. And Aline, tell me if at any point you want me to go anywhere else. I'm just kind of going right now. So I love this.

I love this. Rob was supposed to be. To be traveling this summer. I was supposed to be traveling this summer for two and A half months. So completely disruptive of that. But it's still. Those are just plans that have changed. I like what you said about this has affected our support system. So just acknowledge the fact that this is really. You're already dealing with a lot of things before this, and all of a sudden this is coming and just taking your support system away. It's affecting you personally. So that the first aspect of what you're saying. Two things I do want to get out of this conversation today because we have limited time on a podcast. But the one is, I think, putting in words what's happening, it might be very beneficial for people to realize, like, wait, you know, I think. I think I get it. But also dealing with, how do you think we should really face this collective trauma? How do we deal with it? It would be very beneficial to come out of it.

Yeah, well. And I know we've gotten a bit into what's happening, and I'm going to go back to the phrase of why I called this class, what I called it, when your world is turned upside down. So how I see trauma, when I try, I'm very visual. So when I try to visualize what trauma looks like, I imagine myself standing up and my feet being taken out from underneath me, and me slamming on the ground and getting up, being disoriented. That's essentially what trauma does to us. It disorients our entire system, everything about us. And so when you think about this time of collective trauma, you have millions of people where their world, their entire understanding of everything around them has been disoriented in upheaval and completely shifted. And so you have that on an individual basis where people are just, like I said, that that image to me is just always so powerful of me trying to get up if I hurt my head of like, where am I? What's happened? I don't really know. How do I process this? But then, in addition to that, like you were saying, our community, our support systems, our societies, when you have a number of people going through that, everybody responds in different ways. And so it can be challenging to understand other people's responses. In addition to being challenging to understand how we ourselves are responding, it can be challenging to then go, well, how do I support others? I don't know where they are. They're disconnecting from me. They're being more irritable than usual. They're X, Y and Z. There's a number of individual responses. Like I said, they're sleeping a lot more than usual. They're just disconnecting what's happening. And so there can be this again. Like you were saying, that impact of the way we relate with others changes because everyone's going through their own response. And in response, there may be an impairment of how we're able to support each other. Now there's hope amidst this chaos, which is why we're doing this course and why we're really excited about it. And so here's the hope and here's what I'm really, really hoping that this course can bring in. Helping people understand that collective trauma is happening, that we're being affected, all of us. Like Aline, you were saying you're being impacted, so am I, and I am a specialist in trauma, and I'm being impacted. We all are. We're human. We're all being disoriented by our world shifting in such dramatic ways and such profound losses happening all around us and to us. And so yet there's hope when we can see what's happening to when we can see our responses, see how we're being affected, see how others are being affected. That in itself is a beautiful tool because knowledge is a privilege and it gives us this tool to then go, so, okay, if I know what's happening, then I can meet myself and others with grace and empathy and meet them where they are. So, for example, say I'm talking about a person who. Their response is, they're having a hard time reaching out, communicating with others, their communication is impaired, where they're just having a hard time even knowing how to reach out to other people. Then I may be able to go, I'm going to meet my friend or that person where they are, such that I'm going to reach out more and say, what do you need? Even if you don't respond to this, then I can just say, I know you're having a hard time. I'm here for you, I'm with you. And so, just as a tangible example, but being able to go, what is collective trauma? How can it affect us? Then that gives us the tool to go, well, what do we do with it? How do we give ourselves the space to say, where am I and what do I do with that?

It's. I find. I find myself sometimes I find myself having to try hard not to judge people too, because we're all in such different circumstances. Like, you know, I think of my brother who's an actor in LA and they just suspended all green cards, so he's already thousands of dollars into a green card. And now immigration shut down or I think of my daughter who's graduating. And this is, you know, one of those dreams you've had for your whole life. I know my wife and I think we did the math. We've lost 40,000 bucks just on rental shutdowns and currency exchanges. And that's not like 40,000 on the stock market. That's solid 40,000. And so I'm like, I'm not a guy that. Well, I don't know. Yesterday I just found myself wanting to hide under a blanket. And then sometimes I find myself wanting to judge people. I'm like, you're not losing anything. You're getting a big long snow day. But then on the other hand, you look at pictures of people in like, for example, Paris, you know, living in a 400 square foot apartment with three kids and two dogs. And I think I have nothing to complain about. Like, you've maybe seen this, the meme or whatever. We're all in the same boat. Not really. It's sort of a different boat. We're all in the same storm or whatever. But I find myself judging and I try not to.

I so appreciate that though, Rob, because you're right in that every single one of us are dealing with different things. And that's okay. We are all allowed to have our experiences, whether it may look better or different than another person. You're right. We are all being impacted. Now, of course. Does that mean that we do everything we can to support others around us who are being impacted in really severe ways, whether it's abuse or job loss or death? Of course, absolutely. Or if we're dealing with that, but in itself, giving ourselves enough and everyone around us the respect to say, your experience matters. And it's, it's valid because we're all being impacted in such drastic and different ways. As you probably hear in the background, my one and a half year old is making noise behind me. So there you go. That's just a glimpse into what the COVID 19 pandemic looks like in my world. Working from home with a one and a half year old. But I really appreciate what you said. That's beautiful.

And I really like the visual image that you've presented. The fact that you just. The world is turning upside down and you're being hit, smacked, and then you're coming out, you're disoriented somehow. I want to pause because I don't give myself that space. I, you know, higher education executive having to make a world of decision. There's no playbook for this. It's not like I can go, I go on Google and be like, leading through a pandemic. Give me the five steps. Right. And even if they do, they don't apply, apply to our context. But yet we are meant to make serious decisions, life altering decisions. Everybody's scrambling, but we're not giving ourselves or the person next to us the space to be like, listen, it's okay. It's understandable that you're just scrambling these days because there's been a smackdown pandemic over us. So there is that level of collective thing and I really like the visual help to at least allow ourselves to feel disoriented and to be okay until we figure out our footing, until we figure out what's going on here. Right, yeah.

Well, and if, if we recognize that we're being disoriented, then we can go, oh, okay, so I know I'm not doing very well, or I know I have needs and then how do I respond to that? But if we don't even know something is wrong or we're being impacted, then we can't respond. And we continue to go through this, the survival mode, which is in itself a way of functioning. And it's a God given gift that our brain allows us to go into survival mode so that we can handle trauma. But eventually it takes a toll on our body and our nervous system and we have to go, okay, but wait, how do I get from surviving to thriving? How do I get to that place of coping? But I can't do that if I don't even give myself permission to know I need to cope.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, go ahead, Rob. Yeah.

Hey, here's a question. So I don't know if you've noticed, like you watch social media and just in the regular news and at the start there's a lot of hey, we're all in this together kind of thing. And then recently there's been a lot of acrimony, like people fighting and they're like, you know, some guys are protesting and they're like, you can't lock me down, you know, and all that. And other people are like, you're killing baby. Or you're killing old people. If you go out and is that you think this is a function of kind of a displaced, displaced collective angst? What do you think?

That's. Yes. So actually that's a researched and typical like response to collective trauma where actually you can see more rifts because people are in themselves trying to figure out how to cope, how to respond, how to deal. And so you actually see collective trauma historically, whether it's wars, pandemics, whatever it is, terrorism, you actually see these drastic shifts in society where separations of thinking, where oppression can increase, where violence can increase. So actually that's a, that's a very typical response to collective trauma, which only increases the collective trauma response. So that's a really great question, Rob. I appreciate that.

And I feel, I would like to say this in this episode as well. We've covered this in another episode, I think, when we talked about mission. But the racism against a specific people group, that is happening right now, that is happening, and I think it's timeless. Usually we just lash out and we think we're justifying lashing out to the person next to us, because they're right there and they're the only. They're the face to my problem, apparently. And we just want to let people know, if you're listening to this and you felt the need and urge to do that, it's just not okay. It's rather okay to step back and think, where is this coming from? I've never had these thoughts, and I'm not talking about people that were before this pandemic already had racism. You know, deep into their heart, if people that are lashing out now, they don't understand why am I lashing out against this? But it's still as hurtful. Nobody's gonna think, oh, you were a racist before, and now you're doing, you're, you're lashing out. So a great thought on this, on responding in an unhealthy way to this. What are some. Yeah, go ahead, Rob. Yeah.

Here's another question I have with the whole, the whole thing. You know, I'm kind of. I like apocalyptic movies and stuff like that. Someone's watching stuff like, you know, nuclear disasters and asteroids. And so I had all my plans for the end of the world. And, you know, I read the book of Revelation and this is nothing like any of them. And I'm wondering how psychologically if this plays into collective trauma. Like it's supposed to be this terrible thing that we're happening, but most of us don't know personally anyone that's died. And for a lot of us, you're sleeping in more than normal. And so we're, you know, it's a weird thing. Are we in this terrible pandemic or not? And I don't know, do you have any thoughts on that psychologically or trauma wise?

And can you rephrase that for me just to make sure I understand? Sorry.

Yeah, Let me try. It's a weird question. I'm wondering if the fact that like. Like, for example, if you're in World War II, everybody knows there's problem. Like, people are always talking about the Blitz. When the Blitz happens, everybody pulls together because, you know, the bombs are coming and people are dying and you see the buildings all around you. For a lot of us now, for some of us in New York, maybe that's sort of what this is feeling like. But for a lot of us, like, certainly people in rural parts of the. My county has two active cases, 50,000 people and a lot of people out of work. And so, you know, some people are kind of like, it doesn't feel like a trauma yet. It's supposed to be. And I wonder if that. I don't know, this is a weird question, but is that there's no.

I appreciate that because to me. So a couple of different thoughts. For one, I think about, again, the individual differences and that everyone's impacted differently, everyone's responding differently.

And.

And that's all completely valid. And yet even if people aren't directly impacted in the sense that they're having severe loss or job loss or things like that, even still seeing others around you deal with traumatic experiences, collective trauma can be traumatic in itself too. And so I wanted to note on that as well that even just, and this is a totally different side note, but encourage you to limit exposure for news because that can be very traumatizing, which I haven't added that to this course, but I'm going to add it at a later point. But that's a whole other thing. But in addition, there's the really important piece of recognizing every. Even if this is a collective trauma as a whole for a lot of societies, communities and areas within those societies are drastically differently impacted. So like you said, New York looks very different than Portland. And so recognizing that those different communities have experienced different things and have different needs and response, that's okay, too. And so again, just giving. I think the big thing here is giving that space to recognize every experience is valid, every need is valid, every response is valid. And meeting people and communities where they are and saying, what do you need? How do I help you? How do I help myself? What's next?

And it might be that you're not necessarily affected by the disease itself, but you're affected by the consequences of the disease. I mean, people out of work. And you see, like, even in small communities, you see people like, just not having any work. And the news. Oh, Lord. I mean, please. Wow, I actually, you know, sometimes every other day I turn on the news just to see what's happening. And it's equally depressing every other day. Like, I just, I don't know, there's not one glimmer of hope, even though they want to build some hope and then they build a lot of desperation. Can you walk us a little bit, just a few thoughts that you have of how to really deal with collective trauma? Because I'm clearly sold on the fact that we need to pay attention to it. This is something that we really need to at least educate ourselves in. I was a complete ignorant person to it because I never had to educate myself on collective trauma, fortunately. But I really see the value of knowing more about it and understanding how to deal with it. Can you give us just a few things in your perspective of just great things that we think we need to know about this?

Absolutely. So the course goes into this in more details, but I'm going to give a few big points to end us off today. One, I've been saying it the whole time, meet yourself and others where you are. That is crucial to number one, be able to say, where are you? Where am I? What do you need? Meet you there. And that's okay, regardless. Two, lean into your community. Do not try and do this alone. Whether that means you're Skyping, you're FaceTiming, you are texting, you are just sending a message to someone saying, hey, I'm not doing well. Pray for me. Whatever it is, don't try to do this alone. Because trauma can, can be have so many consequences and one of those is it can actually have some really impacting relational consequences and it's not anyone's fault. So I don't hear that. But we all do better when we have community, including times of trauma. We need that support, we need that love and that affection when our brains and our bodies are having a hard time responding. Number three, figure out what your coping resources and tools are and make them known and make them readily available. So I say, just like you would have a medical emergency kit, have an emotional coping emergency kit. So write a list of things that are helpful for you that you can cope with, whether it's going on a walk, praying, reading your Bible, exercising. For me, it's boxing. I love to punch a boxing bag, probably because I'm a therapist of trauma. You know, you just see so much. But whatever it is that works for you, write that list down and make them applicable and manageable for you to do. Now have that list available if you're feeling down. If you're having a hard time. What happens is when we're having a traumatic response, our brain has a hard time in recognizing what our resources are. So having that list that you can pull out and go, oh, yeah, I do like to do these things. This could be helpful. Is really helpful for you. And then last but not least, there are a number of resources out there, free or cheap or technology ones. And my course also has a list of these as well to try to provide some additional resources. There's apps right now, I think there's one called Covid Coach, which is a free app that's been put together by. Oh, and I can't remember who it is. Anyways, it's a national organization in the United States that is a great coping resource. Right now. It's free. There are hotlines all throughout the United States and the world regarding suicide, abuse, domestic violence, all of those things. So lean into your resources and if you don't know what they are around you and locally, ask for help. Because there are some there. And so, yeah, those are some. I think the big tips that I would want to leave people with today.

Oh, this is great. I'm gonna try to summarize this in my own words. I don't usually do it, but just as people are thinking, I want to give people the time on this podcast to think about these solutions. So as I'm listening to this is. It's important to know yourself, know that what you. If you're experiencing things that are not normal for you, it might be that even if you're not personally directly affected, that you've not seen somebody die on the street or been in Italy and had to witness the gruesome thing that they went through, you are still affected by this. I'm still affected by this. And I'm just coming to, I believe, being European, you know, you plow through some things and you don't think of the, you know, you don't connect to yourself as easily because we're not trained to do so. And so you just plow through it. But I've realized, and as I've seen myself somewhat from like the corner of my eye be like, that's just not normal. Like, I don't normally react like that. Just acknowledge that we might be. You are with everybody else in the middle of a pandemic, and we are affected. The two. So the first thing is to know yourself. I love that. To know how you're reacting to is community. And I know we say it a lot. And I'm. My heart breaks for people that are in places where they can't necessarily reach out. But even a virtual community, churches and congregations went virtual right now for the first time in the history of the world. And it's still working. There's still social learning, there's still connection, there's still human connection. Because guess what? Behind that other webcam is still another person. It's still somebody that cares for you and loves you and wants to know how you're doing. So it's easier on a Sunday maybe to just turn it off and not connect at all. I think it's important to do so. And then the third one that I thought was brilliant is download an app. Just download anything you need to download. Go anywhere you need to go. Maybe for the first time in your life. Just Google like counseling principles or psychology or some of these things and see, get a lifeline somewhere, right? See what you can do to cope with this. I love these. Rob, final thoughts.

Yeah. On a scale of 1 to 10, how dysfunctional is it to be eating as a coping mechanism? My wife keeps baking and it's been really good.

Rob, have you learned anything? We all are allowed our own responses. You are allowed to have your baked goods. And you know, if baked goods help you cope with this. Enjoy your baked goods. No, but. But again, one thing I really hope everyone hears is love yourself and others well, because we all are being affected in different ways and that's okay.

But don't love yourself more than others when it comes to food. Tip that balance, because I have that problem. Do not give us the permission to bake as much as we want. Please. You're a professional. Don't let us.

Now, I will say if you get to the point where you recognize it's unhealthy, then stop. But if you're just like, oh, I just need a treat because I'm having a hard time, let me just have a treat for a second. That's okay. Now, if you start eating 20 a day, Rob, then we might have to have a conversation. But.

Rob, I think in the history of Arsha, this is my favorite question you ever asked because it just, it revealed a deep issue of having to deal with something in my own heart. And, you know, my opinion, and I'm not a professional, is if you have a lot of emotions, what else are you going to do? You have to eat them. You have to eat the emotions. You can't just let them. So I think, yes, but that's not a professional opinion. Well, Danielle, Danielle, thank you so much for agreeing to be with us. I'm very thankful for your, for your being with us today. And not only that, but I am very excited for this course that is coming out next week on multnomahplus.com. it's going to be titled When Our World Turns Upside down and Is Dealing with Collective Trauma. I highly recommend you go because Danielle has more time to really dig deep into this topic and give you some of those resources that I think it put it in one place. So go to Multnomah plus. You're gonna see it on our Multoma plus page. If you don't. If you've not liked our Multnomah Plus Facebook page, just go and like it, follow it so then you can find all the, all the new things we're launching. Once again, thank you, everybody. God bless you and stay safe. Whatever you need to punch in order for you to stay safe, I've learned something and I think I'm gonna pick up a new sport and we'll, we'll see everybody on our next episode. God bless you. Talk to you later.