Season 2 - What Has Changed In Higher Education During And Potentially Post Covid - 19

We're back.

Wonderful people, interested and passionate about higher education. MU Talks is back. Here's Aline and Rob Hildebrandt.

Rob Hildebrand back in front of the mic.

We're very excited. We took a little break. We are starting a new episode of MU Talks. I am here with Reverend doctor Robert J. Hildebrand.

Exactly right.

And your meekly Aline Brunilla in, in. In the house right here. Very excited to talk about a. A good subject. We have been doing higher education a little bit for a while through a pandemic. I think people are a little bit tired of talking about the pandemic, but we're not going to talk about the pandemic as much as we're going to talk about the changes in higher education. What. What has changed? What has actually changed through global pandemic? So welcome back, Rob. Tell us a little bit about where you've been, what's going on with your life. In case you don't know. Let me. Let me do a shameless plug. Okay, I'll do a shameless plug. In case you do not know.

Yeah.

Our very own Robert Hildebrand has actually purchased a chateau in France.

Sure.

You know what? That's a, that's an episode. We're gonna have to do an episode. We should talk. But in order for us to do an episode about that, about study abroad, the future of study abroad, what happens that and your experience with it, which I think is really. It's a huge part of higher education.

Yeah.

Especially in America. We need to put a shameless plug because people have to watch your YouTube channel. Go to your YouTube channel, do their homework. This is Flip Classroom, Flip Learning right here. They have to do their homework, and then they need to come live to an episode and talk to us a little bit about that. Right? Yeah.

It's so fun.

That's what you've done this summer. Tell us a little bit about your experience there.

Well, it was great. You know, we were gone. I mean, it makes. It makes the podcast a little tricky. Unless we shoot it from France. Oh, we could do that sometime.

Is this an invitation?

We've got electricity.

I will honor that invitation.

Yeah, no, it's great. We run a study abroad, Leslie and I, and it's interesting. People started watching and so we started doing YouTube videos. And I think we're up to about 800,000 hits now. 800,000. I was calculating it. I was looking at. It was saying that people have watched our videos for 82,000 hours.

82, 000.

So they're long videos, some of them. So that means like one person watching the video would watch for Almost a decade, 24 hours a day to watch that much. Oh, I know. I'm amazed that people. But it is. It is kind of cool because you come up against all kinds of challenges building this thing. And we had a great experience with about 20 of us over there and. But it makes the podcast a little bit hard. And it was tricky with COVID too. You know all the rules. Well, both of us have traveled internationally.

Yes, yes, yes. A little bit.

Something.

Well, tell us the name of your YouTube channel.

Oh, yeah.

Easily foundable.

So the program is called LAR Valley Study Abroad. And so www. Valley study abroad.com and the Chateau, if you're googling YouTube is Chateau Griff.

How can people spell that? Oh, yeah, Help them find you.

No, Griff. G R I F F E R A I E. Okay. I believe it'll come.

Chateau de Graphier.

Castle of the Claw.

The. Oh, the Castle of the Claw. Is that what it's called?

I think it's from the birds. There's so many.

Another 20 hours of watching just there just because of the chateau. Just for people to know. And this, this is becoming a podcast about the chateau because the story is fascinating. It's just beautiful. It's just beautiful. I was watching Rob Hildebrand live as he was going in. In his attic in the chateau in the middle of the night. I kid you not. I'm watching. It's night. It's. It's, it's, it's. I don't know if it's night time. It was nighttime.

Yeah, it was like 1am or something.

And so I'm watching him going with a. Did you have a musket or something? You have like an old.

It's like an anti. It's like an anti gun. Previous owners left in the cab because.

He heard noises in the. In the thing. I mean, talk about like Bigfoot and all these things from port.

Yeah.

And I'm watching this and all of a sudden this creature out of nowhere just shows up in. In that. And I freaked out in my living room in America. If. If I would have been in that attic, I would have lost it. It was completely.

I almost went downstairs. It was like. It's an owl. And they do not make any noise when they're flying. You don't hear them. So all of a sudden this white thing is gliding at you with these dead eyes like a sharp. Like a airshot.

Rob? No, thank you. I appreciate it. No, like never.

Oh, man.

Oh. But did that make it into an episode?

Actually, it's called Drums in the Dark, I think.

Drums.

Yeah. It's like the real 13 minute, real time. Yeah. Pretty funny.

So you traveled. So you can clearly say that, at least for now, travel has changed significantly in the way that it operates.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, it's. I mean, you know, it's really interesting. The airlines are kind of the policemen, so the countries. Again, the country doesn't want, like, thousands of people at their border stuck. So what they do is, is they just say, we're going to find the airline if it lets the wrong person in. And so you got to check with your airline. You got to obviously do your homework on what shots you need and what tests and what paperwork. But it's. Yeah, it's complicated and it's slow, and then you end up with a, you know, a Dreamliner 787 with 16 people on it. You got your own section.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

Oh, well, we're going to have to get. We're going to have to go back to. And do a. A whole episode of Study Abroad, not only because you are an expert in the house, but because I'm curious how the world. Because the world has changed. I mean, it's not changing. Has changed, and it's contin. It's continuing to change due to the pandemic and especially higher education. But I'm curious how study abroad as a concept is going change as these. These restrictions are. There are in place all the things that are still happening. So let's. Let's think about higher education.

Yeah.

Let me. I find this. What has changed.

We have sound effects.

This year, ladies and gentlemen, we went Ford grade.

If we. If we tell jokes, we will not be hung out to dry. Or. Or will we? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Everybody thinks I'm funny. Yeah, that's right.

Oh, this is exciting. We. We got the help of. I'm gonna give a shout, Jack Gregor. And he's helped us many, many times. Well, but many things have changed in higher education. And so let me. Let me start with busting some myths, okay? One of the. The myth of COVID is that enrollment is down across the board because of COVID Right? So students now thinking, oh, should I do it? Should I not? Should I get into the. Should I go to school? Should I not? And this. This is a myth. Right Now, I participated in quite a few meetings from alliance to all these. Not one institution reported being down in enrollment. Actually, we have seen a spike in enrollment. So the first myth of the fact that the pandemic has affected people's view on higher education and going to higher, to universities is right now a myth. What has changed significantly, I think has changed in the midst, in past the enrollment, the way education will happen and is happening. But enrollment wise, we have not seen a significant decrease in enrollment. So that's one of the myths that, that we need to kind of, yeah, explode from the beginning, but internally as a professor. So I'm going to ask you a few questions. We're going now past the, the statistics and all this. What have you seen in the class? What, what are you seeing? Changes that are happening. And by the way, Rob is a professor in a traditional format teach is it mostly right now, mostly in person. My expertise in my area of involvement is online, so I want to speak a little bit about what, what I see changes in online. But from your perspective from the classroom, let us know.

You know, I thought the students did great. You know, I know there's been a lot of teacher angst like you talk to teachers and teachers were obviously frustrated the past year, finding it really difficult for a number of reasons. I think the hardest thing is when you're trying to do both at the same time. Like you're trying to go online and live because you always feel like you're cheating. One of the little bit, some teachers I heard felt that some students kind of tried to take advantage of the situation. I, my belief was that we as teachers, we had to give students the benefit of the doubt a little bit because it's been a really tough year for them, like psychologically, mentally. And so I personally in my class, I tended to give them the benefit of the doubt on stuff like with attendance and zoom participation, you know, whether you're on camera, those kind of issues. I, I, there was, you know, the hardest thing for me personally and for, I think a few others was the idea of teaching with a mask, which, oh yeah. And I don't know if it's just something psychologically wrong with me. I can wear a mask all day. Again, I don't mind flying to Europe and wearing it for 16 hours. It's uncomfortable. But I can do it. You know, I'll live. But trying to teach with a mask, you know, you, you, it's, if you're a communicator, it's, you don't know, you can't, you can't tell what people out there are thinking. They can't see your facial expressions. It's harder to breathe when you're Trying to get so many words out and move around. I just, I like, I'm a good kid. I was the kid that always tried to obey the rules. There have been times this past year where I'm kind of like, I don't think I'm going to obey that rule. And I'm like, I can't believe I'm saying that. That's just not who I am. But some of the masks and I believe in masks, you know, I'm sure they help, you know, but just practically, that was really tough.

You know, I talked to an educator and, and ladies and gentlemen, brothers and sisters out there, you have to understand why Rob and myself are doing this podcast. Because we are, I think, opposite. We are the opposite people. I am the one that finds the, the regulations that need some tempting, that need some pushing and need some testing. They need to see how firm are they and why are they there? Why are these regulations there. But, but I've talked recently with an educator and I'm curious, what do you think about their, their expansion? They said that masks were so significantly interrupting the way that they teach because they couldn't do the same jokes, they couldn't be sarcastic and do faces and connect with people. And it actually affected their teaching more than they could ever believe. It affected the humor in the class. I was curious how you felt that.

Oh, I, it's terrible. Like I, I, I heard a couple guys, you know, not necessarily at our institution, but saying like when, when. Because we thought we had, we with you know, the vaccines and most of us I think are vaccinated. I shouldn't speak for everybody. I think most of us probably. But you know, I heard when they came back the second round, there were some guys are like maybe it's time to retire. Like it was, you know, it was one of those things like do I want to go back to work? Which I wonder if that's part of what's going on in our world right now. You see so many job wanted. It's just a fascinating time to be alive.

The great resigning of of America shifts in jobs. Besides, beside I'm looking at our Facebook Live and our live to see if there are any comments. By the way, if there are any comments, if anybody actually has any comments, please let us know or questions. We would love to interact with you but anything else other than masks in the classroom, the presence of students or the, the level of interaction or let.

Me, I, you know, this whole thing. Now Multnomah has historically been a school where we have a strong Community, I think, and people like each other and care about each other. It's not just a random school where you go to, you know, and you don't know anybody, you don't care about anybody. You know, typically we have a pretty good community here. And a lot of times that would happen in the dining hall and on campus. And then of course, Covid came and shut down, almost shut down our dining hall, so nobody was eating in there. And to me that was, that was like taking the heart out of an organization. And so it's so wonderful this year to see that room full again. I told you we were talking about. We had these 20 students in France. And so we all tested most. The of most were vaccinated. And then we lived in this castle together. And it was kind of like we were. We weren't quarantined, strictly speaking, but we were kind of all in a pod. And so we kind of said, well, we've all tested negative. We're just going to live together. And you know, and nobody got Covid for two months is great. And watching the young people interact, watching the students interact, it was fascinating. It was like you uncorked a bottle of that had been, you know, and it just exploded with community. Like kids would sit and talk for two and a half hours a day at the dinner table. And from one of the, one of the students wrote in their evaluation, from 7am till 1am in the morning, there was laughter ringing through the house because they were just so happy to be together again. And, and I think, I think young people need, they need that interaction. And you know, I sold people. We got our, you know, some of us are married, we got our family. I got my tv, I got my computer. I don't need anybody. But maybe exaggeration, but, but young people need each other. And so it's been wonderful to see them come back onto this campus. I think the ones on the campus are loving that and that that's been very encouraging.

Well, there have been some significant studies on the. The impact of social learning and how much social learning kicks in, into the learning overall. And I'm, I'm actually very curious. I mean, we've seen some studies come from primary and secondary education on how much it de. Socialized them and how much learning did not happen in the community and all that. But I am, I am curious about higher education, how much that actually is going to play a role into the formation of the students, having not having had that for quite, quite some time. And also the impact of the online community Gen Z's and even, even half a millennials are very comfortable with online communities, are very comfortable with connecting and socializing, using those areas.

Right.

So did that play a role in keeping them alive and connecting. Connecting with each other? So I'm curious if, you know, in person is truly replaced by the online communities and the online interaction. That's one question. And how social learning has been really impacted by this time.

You're right to observe the difference. I think, like even watching my own kids, I have kids 22 and 25, both great kids. Yeah. And the way they will talk to their friends. You know, like when Leslie and I were dating back in the Stone Ages 30 years ago or whatever it was. I mean, we talked, we were apart for a while. Literally it was a buck a minute on the phone. So it was 10 minutes a month that we would talk. You know, that was it. And my kids, they'll go to sleep talking to somebody and it's just kind of like, okay, I'm going to, let's, let's go to sleep. And they'll leave the FaceTime running and they go to sleep and it's kind of like, wow, that was a two hour conversation. Or they'll talk while they're doing something else. They're reading a book, theoretically, or like doing a project or washing the dishes. And they just have these long. So you're right, that's different. Different. And they're very, very comfortable with the technology. And, and I think that there will be a segment of the population that will prefer not to go back to in person education. As a teacher, I actually kind of liked it. The zoom. I didn't, I liked the convenience. Didn't like doing both at the same time, but I did not mind it. I think I was probably more positive than most of my students. But again, hit or miss.

So we have seen some changes to the classroom. We have seen some changes. But I'm curious, from your perspective, just, just from your pers. Perspective from where you sit in higher education, where do you see the most disruptive changes in. From COVID From class, the curriculum, to future of education, to all these. I'm curious, from your, from your point of view, where do you see the, the most significant changes?

Boy, I wonder. Now I'm speculating.

Pure speculation.

We're not speculating.

This is a podcast. This is not a research institute.

I am, I, I sent, I think you and a couple of the deans an interesting article. I want to say it was the New York Times. I can't remember talking about the participation of men in higher ed and how it continues to decline. I think it was something like 40% of students are now male. And it was interesting because the articles are like, well, men. Maybe men's brains aren't formed. And like it was all these negative things. And I'm like, or maybe they just want to start making money like me, you know, and. And so I, I was, I was looking at that and I kind of had the thought in passing that I wonder if Covid has sped up a couple of trends that face higher education. One of them, I think people grappling with the cost of education, which, as you were friends, you know that I always talk about that. But secondly, the gender, like the balance of gender in, in education, I wonder if that's kind of sped us up a little bit, made some of the guys will maybe a little more cynical of education. I'm not sure.

Yeah, that. That is a great observation because I think speculating and also analyzing what's happening in higher education, I think what one of the major changes that I see is the bedrock of. On which higher education is. Is set has been shifted, has been rocked. And people ask now larger questions, why should I go to school?

Right.

Even though enrollment is not down right now. And we've seen an uptake. I mean, we, we always see this with crisis. You know, the market, the marketplace went down and the, the stocks and all that, 2018 financial crisis, and all those people went to school actually. So we see, we see thinking, oh, you know, I need to reassess. Look, this pandemic has, has made me an essential worker now. You know, what do I need to do to be able to stay at home and work and all this. So people are rethinking why may I should go back to school? So in times of these crisis, crisis people. But I think what's significantly different with this crisis is because we are seeing the larger question marks coming and saying, what is truly the role of higher education in my life? How is this really going to help me? Should I just go get a job and put some food on the table? And so seeing these larger questions, we understand that the marketplace now is pushing really hard, putting pressure on higher education to adjust significantly.

And honestly, I'm not, I'm okay with that. Like, I think higher education should be practical. Clearly we believe in liberal arts education, like learning about more than just a particular trade or something, because there is value in improving yourself and understanding the full world, you know, the universe, the everything. And so education is wonderful that way. But it's legitimate for people to wonder, you know, how practical it is. And so I in some ways applaud the pushback against maybe some educators who would be so inward that they believe that the school, the academy is sort of the final goal or our existence as an organization is some kind of noble thing that needs to be. No, no, no. We're means to an end. We should be helping people.

Yes.

So I don't mind if they push us to help people.

Another area that I think this is going to have an effect is so we have seen major players come into the education field. Last year Google went into the education space. They launched a certificate, six month certificate through Coursera. Here I am giving them a huge shout out. But the reason this was, this was actually very important is because they launched, they launched a certificate and you can finish in 6 months a tech training, an I T training with 86 job placement starting at 80k a year.

Year. Yeah. Wow.

So it's, I mean it's significant. It's not, it's. And they've moved into the education space more and more institution institutions are not requiring higher, are not requiring higher education degrees at all like from IBMs and everybody out there. Churches are not ministry, you know, ministries. I, I actually participated in a discussion recently with some representative, some churches on the west coast and they were saying that we don't see tremendous value in people being trained in a seminary or theologically. And I found that to be quite grieving. So it's, it's either on us on, or on the church moving quite far away from each other. But I, I think the shifts are greater. The tectonic plates have shifted largely and we don't see small changes and we think things have not changed. But I, I do think larger issues have changed. Curious about your opinion.

Yeah, no, I mean I agree. I. Now here's the thing, think, you know, like so as you know, I've been a guy who's been pretty angsty about education and the cost of education. I'm angsty about it. I think we need to care for our young people. And so I think edge schools have to get better and I think they have to be more economical. Having said that, when you think about your own kids like you have three coming up, hope that's okay. I just said that. Yeah, yeah. And I had two that went through it and I'm thinking even though I have these questions about education, do you want your kids not to have one? Like do you want them to have the six month program and I'm like, I don't think I do, I think my preference would be the schools to improve. And so that's why I'm optimistic on this. If, if, if these other organizations prompt us to do a better job, great, bring it on. Let's improve. Back to the church thing, like, interesting thing about the salary. I, I, I get emails from churches every week. Like I teach church ministry so I get emails from churches every week looking for people and probably four or five positions for every student we have. Oh wow. Super easy to get hired right now and actually like, and I don't, I'm not, I don't mind throwing numbers. I, I had a church recently in this public knowledge they looking for a starting youth pastor. 50 to $65,000 which to me seems like a lot of money. But I used to think, well our, our guys are all going to be, you know, pretty tight financially. But no, you can live on that. You know, that's a living wage. And so even a job that youth pastor would, which is incredibly meaningful, like, you know, you love doing it, it's fun. You're helping people change their lives. Generally not considered to be a big salary job, even that is a pretty decent wage these days. So I, I'm optimistic in that sense.

So here's, here's a concluding question for us that I think is going to take the rest of our time. If there's anybody online that has questions, please feel free. You can if you want to participate when we record these live, please. You can can follow Rob Hildebrand, Robert Hildebrand on, on social media. Are you on most Instagram? Are you Facebook Instagram?

Yeah, mostly just the old people. Facebook Facebook.

Okay, you can follow them on Facebook because then you can find the Chateau de Griff. I'm trying to say it very accurately. If you can see the Griffin Griff. Okay, I don't know another R in there that I'm missing, but you can find that link and click on that. You can also find me on, on all social media platforms. But please don't snap me and Snapchat me. Please don't do that. But you can find me on, on all and it's Aline Vanzilla A L I N and you can, you can follow us so you can actually.

Join.

Us live and ask some questions live if you have because we'd love to interact with you. But what's, what's significant. I want to, I want to end our, our this episode on the this is how do you see learning shifting? So here's here's where, where I bring this. Entrepreneur.com launched a very powerful article on the fact that the industrial era has crumbled. Postco. Now, I don't know what Postco means. I have not seen Postco yet. I don't know when that Postco is going to hit, but I do think that they're actually meaning that there is already crumbled. So the industrial era has crumbled, giving way to the new digital age. And they're calling a new digital era now. We've been talking about the digital age since 2010. What this is significant. I think it's because we are truly now in an official digital age where companies, governments, world banks and all this are going to pour an ungodly amount of resources into digital infrastructures. So with this, this push that we're now with the new age industrial era has influenced learning, has shaped learning, has, has determined learning. And we are, we are formed by that era in, in the way we organize our benches, in the way we set students up, in the way we prepare them for the type of work we prepare them for. It is truly shaped learning. And I'm very curious from what you're seeing, if you think that is already starting or that's, you know, it took 500, it took half a century for people to understand that they're in the industrial era. So that didn't happen like, well, we are officially in the industrial. How is learning changing? And how is learning going to change in your perspective in. In a new digital age?

Okay, so first of all, we should hear from you on this subject because you're probably the expert.

I'm doing it from the person that is in, you know, in, in. I don't mind why they're face to face.

Yeah.

From your perspective.

I am fascinated to see what will happen. I, I love what you're talking about. I don't know if you've ever watched the Ken Robinson videos.

Yes, I did. Yes, I did talk about the industrial.

The guy is a genius. And it sounds like some of the stuff you're talking about. Anybody listening at home that cares about education, you should. He's got some scathing remarks towards the school systems. But. But he is. If you're an educator, you should be listening to Sir Ken Robinson.

And he passed away a few years ago, but his organization is still keeping the, the thing. And I thought that was.

The videos are brilliant. Yes. A little chalkboard drawings and stuff while he's talking. But I kind of. Here's my, here's my suspicion. I Kind of wonder, you know, let's step back for a second. You've kind of got the European systems, you know, like, you know, the European approach to education, like the Cambridge is the fancy schools and you write a big long paper and you have occasional conversations with your professor and that's kind of your doctorate, right? I mean it's a bunch of conversations. You know, the guys will go out to a pub or something like that and have drinks and then, and then you write this big 500 long page, long paper and that's your degree. And then you got the American system, the North American system where you know, it's, you're checking off all these boxes on all these classes and assignments and it feels, I don't know, it does feel more industrial to me. Yeah, I kind of wonder, I kind of wonder if it will go, go both ways. Like I wonder if there will be kind of one segment of education perhaps online. And again, you're the.

Yes. Yeah, it's an open discussion.

Perhaps, perhaps online and perhaps other ways where it's kind of, it goes more like you need a degree, you're going for a job and you need this certification and so you got to do check, check, check, check, check, check. And I kind of wonder if the other way will go more relational, you know, like personally and I guess this is maybe the youth ministry background or maybe it's even the Christianity, Jesus walking around with his disciples for three years. You know, that whole relational. A lot of educators want to quantify everything and they want to assess everything and I get that. But there is a part of education where you're in relationship with the people you're learning with and you grow from that. And I wonder if, if the two streams will, will bifurcate and both thrive. I don't know, I'm, I'm thinking out loud. What do you think?

Yeah, I know that that is fascinating actually because we, you know, with the, the global aspect of digital doesn't have borders, right? I mean it's, it's, it's more borderless than we, we care to believe. And that is going to push different models of learning. I think at the forefront, some of them that have proven to actually really move the needle and how people learn. Another thing that I think is going to have to be changed and challenged is the time based learning. It takes four years to finish an undergraduate. I don't think people are to going, going to have that, that amount of time. Four to six years, 10 years in a PhD, four years in a, you know, seven years. In an M. Div I think we're going to, that is going to be completely changed to how fast can I finish this and learn learning itself. You know, when we had the infusion of technology, people moved away from memory based memorize this, memorize that to learning how to access the information and not really store so much information in your mind. So, so that was a significant shift. What that's going to mean for the next part of learning. I don't know where that's going to go, but I don't think that's value. Information is really not. And we are very information based and driven. We need to give information. Right. But that's going to be really solidly challenged in a digital age where information is not the problem. Google anything but rather what do you do in information? How do you, how do you store it, how do you access it, how do you analyze it, how do you interpret it, what do you, you know, who, how do you know what's fake and what's real?

You connect it, how do you connect.

How do you interconnect it? So the digital literacy skill is going to be significantly important in digital age. And, and I think this is me speculating at the highest level.

Go get him.

But I think the, the new frontier and the new challenge in front of us is going to be in person education. I think the standard will become the, the base will become digital online learning and, and not the online learning that we have right now. Because online learning that we currently have right now in the landscape of education is mostly learning that has been replicated from a traditional point of view. It's the same type of assignment. This, that checkbox, all this. So it's not really. But the gamification of learning, the, the interactiveness, the artificial intelligence, the augmented reality, all these are going to be part of the online learning. Right. How do you, you're immersing, immersing yourself into that venue, into that learning experience. So experiential learning, all the these are going to kick in, but I think those are going to be really the foundational pieces of how learning is going to happen. And the new frontier. The challenge will be traditional face to face education. That's going to be the area that is now going to require a lot of effort, a lot of innovation because this one is going to become the standard.

Yeah.

So a complete flip of that and I'm curious if that, if that resonates with you in any way.

Yeah, it'll be fascinating. Again, you're the one that's flying places talking about this stuff. So I'm, you know, I'm, I'm a hack on it. But yeah, I mean, you could see how the technology makes it possible, the efficiency of it. I love, you know, the connection between students can happen. Doesn't always, but can happen. And so if it seems to me if digital learning and online learning can, can figure that out or figure out how to do that successfully, I think that that's the, I think that's the last pin to fall in place.

Perhaps that's true. Well, Robert J. Hildebrand. Reverend Dr. Yeah. Thank you for, thank you for just always showing up, helping us move this discussion forward. You are on MU Talks, ladies and gentlemen, and we are wrapping up another episode. We are excited to be back live here and on on Facebook Live, but also recording this podcast. If you have questions, reach out to us. Please feel free to go to multnomaplus.com you can find more information about what Multoma is doing@multnomaplus.com also at multnomah.edu. and I'm going to allow and invite our Reverend Dr. Robert J. Hildebrand to actually give us a good disclaimer.

So here we go. Go. I'll start a second season of butchering this. The views expressed on MU Talks with your friends Aline and Rob do not in any way reflect the music of Multnomah University or the Kingdom of God. Well, we try.

Yeah, we try.

But we're not a representative. We're just two guys talking about the world. Thanks for listening.

Yes, we are. Yes, we are. Thank you for being with us. See you on our next episode with maybe lighter subjects, but we can't promise that.