What is Theology Of Culture and Why is it important? With Dr Paul Metzger

Oh, yeah.

Ladies and gentlemen.

How can you not know that voice? Welcome to another episode of MU Talks here from the studio of Multnomah University in Portland, Oregon. How exciting is that? And I am here today with Reverend doctor Rob Hildebrand. Robert J. Hildebrand.

Yep.

And with Renee Duffy, our co host that we've introduced you to you not too long ago and today with a very, very special guest. And I'm gonna let Renee introduce our guest today and tell us a little bit about who this person is and ready for the grilling of questions and for the very good questions and discussion that is going to come up in this epis. Renee?

Yeah. We are excited today to have with us Dr. Paul Louis Metzger. He's a professor of theology and culture at Multnomah University and Seminary. He's also the founder and director of the university's center for Integration and Cultural Engagement, New Wine. New Wine Skins. He's the editor of New Wine's journal, Cultural Encounters, a journal for the theology of culture, and an author and editor of numerous volumes. We are grateful to have him here with us today to discuss his interests and. And work at the intersection of faith and culture. Welcome.

It's good to be here. Thank you for having me on the air.

Oh, Dr. Metzger, thank you for being with us today. And I'm just gonna let Rob start us off with the first question. There's. I. I don't think this intro has done any justice to who Dr. Metzger is for this institution. How long have you been with no. 1 doctor?

Since 1999.

19. So when they say party like it's 1990, that's when you started.

That's it.

And you like the older music?

I like the older music. George Beverly Shea. George Beverly Shea. The Gaithers.

But what's your favorite band?

Is it Evie or Evie? I've always wondered.

Sandy Patty.

Oh, Sandy Patty. Okay. No, I mean my favorite. Yep.

Which one?

It's hard to say. There's Nirvana. There are the Doors.

Oh, here we go.

Dylan, the Stones. Those are four of my. My tops.

I was in Paris last year at the. The national day of France in front of the Eiffel Tower. And they had a kind of a Daft Punk version of Nirvana. And. And I. I tried to FaceTime you live. It was so, so tragic.

I would have loved to have been there. Oh, when are you gonna bring me with you to Paris?

I know it's one of these days. One of these years.

One of these years.

So, so, so if for the uninitiated what is exactly a theology of culture? Like what. What exactly is that?

Well, I'll just say this. You know, I think that all theology is culturally contextualized, so we never do theology, the study of God in a cultural vacuum. So there's a sense in which all theology is enculturated and all culture is theologized. To me, you know, if we think about worldview, and I'm not a big worldview guy, you know, I. I write about relational, incarnational engagement. We're not going to get into all that with worldviews as such. But I do think that all culture is framed by way of a weltanschang or a zeitgeist, spirit of the age or world system, worldviews, et cetera, et cetera. So all theology arises in a cultural context, shapes a cultural context. And so whether it's Karl Marx or, or if it's Goethe, if it's Mozart in music, those figures are shaping culture. They have a framework, a philosophy of life, that's shaping culture. And I think that that's in part what I'm getting at with theology of culture. So I never do theology, systematic theology, apart from consideration of cultural consideration. So for me, it's not just the discipline of theology of culture. It's all of theology is dealing with that. And I just am trying to make it more precise, more specific, and highlight some of those cultural instantiations. Does that make any sense whatsoever?

Thank you.

That makes a lot of sense and something that draws me constantly and tremendously to Dr. Metzger and from this point on. Am I able to call you Pauline?

Yes, that would be fine.

Yes, yes, yes. And, Paul, I know that you've dedicated a good portion of your life to the Ministry of New Wine, and I'm very curious if you can give us a little bit of history of New Wine. Where. Where did it come from? What's the passion behind New Wine, New Wine Skin, and the work that, that you've done? Because we're going to get too close to the discussion of the academic journal, which is a fascinating thing, and I really am passionate about learning more, reading more from that academic journal. So New Wine.

So New Wine, New Wine Skins started up in the year 2000. I was relatively new as a professor here at Multnomah University, and I just saw the need for us to engage our contemporary culture more constructively. I think we've had at Multnomah, for example, a real passion for the world and for evangelism and mission. Those are great concerns. It's not taking away from any of that, but contemporary cultural considerations. I don't think that that's a hallmark of the fundamentalist evangelical movement, which is what we come from. And there are a lot of strengths to that. I'm a fundamentalist when it comes to doctrine. I'm not a fundamentalist when it comes to culture, but I am when it comes to doctrine, the fundamentals of the faith, I embrace those. So I just saw a need. If I were at a secular university, I probably would have done Bible studies the whole time, because there was a need there, always a need in that context, and then, of course, need for Bible studies in our context too. But I just saw a sense of vacuum for not just cultural awareness, but cultural engagement. And some will talk about culture creation, of course, we engage culture creatively and the like. For me, cultural engagement is about a dialogical posture. So it's not to understand other views, like often happens in worldview formation discussions with apologetics. In order to deconstruct those views, I think we should certainly be about biblical rigor, orthodoxy, right doctrine, also orthopraxy, right practice, and also orthopathy, right passion. And some of that's going to include an empathy and an inquisitive spirit, not an inquisitional spirit of engaging our culture. And while we want to filter everything through scripture, we shouldn't always be looking for the Achilles heel. We need to understand people. And Dr. Joe Aldrich, I think, was a forebearer to New Wine, one of our former presidents. He had that book Lifestyle Evangelism, which was cutting edge in the day, and I still think it's cutting edge. And he was about evangelism. But he quotes Floyd McClung from YWAM in that book where he says, people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. And I think that is just hugely important. People are going to forget quickly what we've said, what we've done, but they'll never forget how we made them feel. And it's not like a warm, touchy feely type of thing, but do we really care about people? And so in our surrounding culture. And I think that's part of Multnomah's passion. I just don't think it was central to cultural engagement was more cultural awareness. And that's more the fundamentalist movement, the cultural engagement, it's much more dialogical. And so New Wine arose in that context of wanting to engage this pluralistic world, not from a vantage point of fear. We were just in A faculty forum today with one of our distinguished senior faculty members saying that evangelicalism is shaped by a culture of fear today. And I, I think perfect love of God casts out fear. We, we should fear God fierce sin and fear the time of day. As I see you're all looking at your watches. How much longer must we be with this guy? Whose idea was it? I mean, seriously, I'm saying this to those who are going to be listening to this later. I wish you could watch it because they've already checked out. So I'm trying to engage MoMA's culture for Christ and I'm losing, I'm losing the culture wars. So anyway, that said, it started there in 2000, and I was thinking about Luke 5 with the parable of the wine and the wineskins. And you know, is it the matter that the wine is so important, like new wine, old wine? We all know old wine's better than new wine. I mean, at least that's what I've been told. Yeah, so. But it's more a matter of the issue of, you know, you don't put old wine with new wineskins or new wine with old wineskins, whatever the metaphor is. The matter is they have, there has to be congruence and you don't want to explode the skins. You have to put new wine into new wineskins. And the point of reference was Jesus of Nazareth because they're saying, you know, your disciples are not like John's disciples or the Pharisees disciples. You know, they're fasting and praying. He says when the bridegroom's taken away, then they'll fast and pray. The point of reference was Jesus. So for new wine, we're about a biblically informed Christ centered engage in a contemporary culture where Christ as Lord shapes the discussion, whatever the topic. And we're confident in him, not confident in ourselves, but confident in him. So that when the bridegroom's taken away, then we'll mourn and weep. The point is, Jesus is the one we're thinking about. So as he is engaging with people in Luke 5, the leper who wants to be healed, Jesus does. What? If I've looked at the passage 100 times, I think it still says this. If I'm not mistaken, you tell me, or if I am mistaken, Jesus touches the leper. I just think it's radical. Isn't that the passage where he touches the leper? He breaks the law from a, you know, a literalistic standpoint, but he fulfills the law because he heals the guy. You weren't supposed to touch the leper. But if there was one thing that this guy needed was for someone to touch him, because he had never been touched in a holistic, holy way. And here Jesus is engaging him. That, of course, raised the eyebrows and intensified the consternation of the religious establishment. But Jesus calls Levi to himself, calls the disciples to himself, and perfect love casts out fear, and imperfect love is cast out by fear. And. And I think we often operate by a culture of fear, not a culture in the holy love of God that shapes the engagement, where it reframes the conversation. So that's what New Wine wants to be out. We aspired it. We're not claiming to be there, but Christ is the one who we believe is leading us there. And so at New Wine, we talk about building relational bridges through Jesus in contemporary culture.

Yeah. So I think of an example, like, I grew up super conservative, as you may recall.

I think you are still pretty real.

Talk in Western Canada. And like, so we didn't do any of the drinking. Like, it wasn't. It was none of the drinking. And then, of course, I moved to France and, you know, neighbors have us over. It's awesome. And obviously, we want to represent Christ well. And so what are we gonna do?

Drink a lot?

Yeah. Like.

Well, no, you didn't. Okay.

I've now. I've now had alcohol 17 times. Not to be legal or about it.

You're actually counting.

Yes, I'm still counting 17. I. But that. That feels like, you know what I'm saying, Understand the times. Is that an example or what's an example of understanding the contemporary, the New wine and the New Wine skins.

Well, I mean, just with what we're going through right now, I mean, you know, with my family situation, with our son who had a traumatic brain injury in January, questions of resilience, questions of mental health, disabilities, faith in science, all those questions have come to the foreground. I mean, New Wine did a conference on disabilities a few years ago. We dealt with one last year on mental health. We did one a few years ago on resilience. And one of our leaders, a pastor up in Port Orchard, CJ Young, said, have you noticed that all the conferences we've done in the last several years are like, they're kind of coming home to address the issues that you're not that God intended those things. I mean, it's just that God doesn't waste energy. And am I mindful of what God may have been preparing me for with my adult son's devastating brain injury? So how I engage the medical community, how I engage by way of mental health, you know, disabilities, all these things, that's all part of contemporary culture. So those are some of the things. And just, you know, in the midst of our culture that's so polarized. One of the things that is so spoken to me, just even this weekend I talked about how my son raised his leg. It's all public. All these things I post are public. My son raised his leg in response to a CNA 45 degree angle. That was a first, excuse me. And I was just touched by people across the ideological spectrum, engaging, supporting, affirming. And it's like we can do better like that in our society. You know, we have so much by way of, you know, confirmation bias and shut down the other side. And here were people, because people all suffer. People are all longing for hope and they're speaking to us, ministering to us, people from all walks of life, all faith traditions and such here. And I engage. I write about this from my Christian perspective. And I just am so touched by how people are. That's all part of engaging contemporary culture for me, trying to grow in emotional intelligence. We do themes on that for new Wine and I. I have a long way to go on emotional intelligence, but I'm learning how to make points in advocating for my son without making enemies. It's all part of cultural engagement. We're always doing it. All Christians are doing this, right? Everybody's doing this.

Yeah.

Good. So as you think about these things and you talk about these things and you interact with other people and put these ideas forward with cultural engagement and theology, is there a biggest or maybe most pervasive misconception that you often come up against either in talking to Christians or non Christians when you try to engage these two things?

You mean Christ and culture?

Yeah.

Well, I think depending on the context, a lot of the non Christians or the people who are not yet Christian engaging with us might say that Jesus has no business addressing these matters because the Christianity that they've experienced stays far away from environmental issues or immigration issues, except in a way that's very disregarding, so to speak. And we're not here to get into all the ins and outs of immigration reform or environmental stewardship. I just think all those questions are on the table. Let's have open conversations about them and let's get all the views out there. On the flip side, I think there are Christians who'd say Christ needs to stay away from those things. It's a detraction to the gospel and I remember this years ago with someone saying to engage environmental concerns. I mean we engage the variety of cultural issues. Christ is not afraid. Why should he be afraid? He created the world, he loves people. Why are we so afraid? And again, regardless of our stance on the issue, let's just engage heart to heart, life on life on these matters. But I think often there are Christians say, well Christ doesn't engage these. It's a distraction of the gospel. And I'm thinking if you're in Portland and you're not engaging environmental issues, I'm thinking who are you talking to? And I'm not doing it because it's bait and switch or you know, we only engage the issues that people are engaging. I think sometimes we have to engage issues that no one wants to engage. And, and it's not just the issues, it's people's lives and their values that we're ultimately engaging. It's not issue center driven, it's people in world, the world whom Christ loves, including the non human creation. It's God's world. If we love the Creator, as my friend Peter Lyons said, who passed away of cancer. Environmental evangelical activists, if we love the Creator, love the creation. So that's just one issue. But we got a lot of pushback for our global climate change conference years ago and we were just trying to have the conversation so people threat, they get threatened by it unfortunately from different sides. Yeah.

One of the things that I've always appreciated about New Wine personally I've been to a few events and Paul and I work closely together, especially as I've become a major fan of New Wine and their ministry and their work. When I started my, my doctoral program, I was studying primary education in South Sudan and on purposely I went to a foreign country, a different country than us, which has a position still in higher education in the doctoral program of let us teach you what we know. And you have to. And so, so even in the doctoral program you have to go to classes and all this. And this program was more like you need to go in that space and listen and listen well and learn how to listen well. You have not much to contribute before you have a good job listening. And I'm here to highlight one of the, one of the things that I love about what New Wine has done so far is learn how to listen and listen well. Listen to all sides. I mean the conference, the event that you had on religious freedom that brought at the table all religions. It was not just the. When we think of religious freedom, we think of from our perspective but because we're, we're so limited in time, we're actually going way past our half time of that we have for the podcast. We like to keep it around 30 minutes.

Yeah.

One of the things that excite me a lot about what Paul has done so far, we are at volume. Is it 16 with cultural encounters?

It's all a blur to me. I think it's 16.

16. 16. 16 volumes with cultural Encounters, which is an academic journal. And, and one prepared one coming up that is really close to my passion, very close to my passion. We're going to talk about that in, at least in one or two episodes. And that is a theology of technology and faith in technology. And I'm very passionate about that because I think we have seen a complete shift and explosion in that area of life with no, no foundations, I think, for, for discussion. Actually the same way with every other topic that have come that has come and has been new and, and hit the church and ministries really hard, I think this one is going to come the same. Can you reflect a little bit on Cultural Encounters? Some of the highlights that you've, that you've had from, from putting forth so many wonderful, powerful academic voices. Some of the things that you've learned from that.

Thank you. So New Wine's journal, Cultural Encounters started up in around 2005 with our first issue and we've been doing two issues per year. And it's a lot of work. And we're grateful for the partnership with Multnomah University because it's, you know, a program initiative from New Wine birthed at Multnomah. And this is part of our work together. And so as I said before about New Wine, it's a biblically informed, Christ centered, trinitarian engagement of contemporary culture. That doesn't mean every article is a biblical exegetical article. We have those at different points. But the framework for how we're engaging is from that vantage point. We're coming at it from our perspective. While we're accounting for a variety of perspectives. Sometimes only Christians are engaged in the issues. Other times we have, like on religious freedom, we heard from Jewish, Muslim, I believe pagan, across the spectrum, I'm just naming a few. And we wanted to hear their take on Buddhists, we wanted to hear their take on religious freedom. And I framed it by way of, in the editor's intro in terms of how we might look at this as Christians as we engage our pluralistic society as Christians seeking to be honoring scripture. So that was just one example, but it's a Biblically informed, Christ centered orientation to engaging various cultural perspectives. And so we have a diverse lineup of editors who contribute, a variety of authors, and then Multnomah faculty who are playing a key role. It's not wired the way a lot of journals at institutions are, where the faculty, basically it's a place where the faculty alone publish or primarily publish. While we include our constituency, we also believe it's good for us to engage, listen, dialogue, and like, I think that's really healthy. It's not insular. So we've appreciated that opportunity. And so we've dealt with issues like disabilities. That was one of our most recent journal issues. Religious freedom was another. We've dealt with race, racialization, racism. We've dealt with immigration reform, hiv, aids, sexuality and gender. We engage the variety of topics that are of great concern to all people in our society. And we're going to be doing one on technology. The one we're working on presently is dealing with the apocalyptic. We're dealing with nationalism, conspiracy theories. It's a bit of an eclectic issue of the journal. So we have social scientists speaking, theologians speaking, some pastors speaking on how they, in their own congregational settings, address some of the polarization that occurs even in their own congregations. How do they foster, move this conversation forward? Let's not be split up as congregations, but have healthy dialogue. So that's going to be part of it as well.

How timely.

Yeah, but one thing I really appreciate about you guys, again, I'm coming from a Mennonite kind of heritage and I love my heritage. But your focus on listening and hearing people rather than just, you know, yelling louder, I love that. Just kind of a side note, I'm.

Sorry, I wasn't listening. What did you say?

Here's a better question.

No, no, it's good. But I think that's the posture of what we're called to in the love of Christ. And I think listening is a form of love. So. I did hear everything you said, Rob, But Paulo Freire, whom we're both big fans of, our job is not to be the bankers who just inculcate and put into people's heads the information, but they are comrades. Our students are our comrades. We're learning together and I think that's important. And I have a long way to go because, like, even in my home life or especially there, it's hard for me to listen even to people I love because I want to solve all their problems. They said, I didn't ask you to solve my problems, I asked you to listen.

It's hard for me to listen because.

I love them so much. I want to solve their problems. It's like I'm the big problem solver, but I even understood the problem in the first place. So.

Yes.

Yeah. Do you think the word evangelical is, like, my whole life, the word fundamental is kind of a pejorative. Like that's a bad thing, you know, and increasingly, it feels like evangelicalists sort of gone that way, too, and we've maybe done it to ourselves. Can it be saved? Does God need to bring a new movement? What do you think?

Well, I think in terms of the core convictions of evangelicalism, I would never want to leave the word. I mean, evangelism, the good news. Right. So, you know, I love Bevington's Quadrilateral, the National association of Evangelicals. Our president, Craig Wilford's been on the board.

Was.

Was on. Is on the board for years. You know, Bebbington's quadrilateral activism, biblicism, crucicentrism, and conversionism. I mean, those are core aspects of. Of evangelical Christianity. So I was out east doing work on a book that I'm still working on, and at this center and major university was right across the street, and they would say, paul, you got to give up that evangelical label. I said, I'm. I am not giving up that I am an evangelical.

Yeah.

And I'm a fundamentalist when it comes to doctrine.

Yeah.

So I have no. Yeah. I have no trouble with the word fundamental. It depends on who's asking, from what angle. I'm talking about biblically, doctrinally. I hold to the fundamentals of the faith. So, you know, I think we've had certain voices that have not been true to the heritage. I think of someone like John R.W. stott, you know, his book on the Sermon on the Mount, Just beautiful stuff that's bedrock in terms of evangelical Christian. I think what Carl F.H. henry was talking about with the Uneasy Conscience, Modern Fundamentals. John M. Perkins, one of my mentors, with his autobiography, Let Justice Roll Down. That's the heartbeat of evangelicalism. Newton, Wilberforce, Wesley, Billy Graham. Love that stuff.

Yeah, it's encouraging.

Well, we're going to go now to Rapid Fire.

I thought this was rapid fire.

Nope, not at all intimidating. We're more than getting to know your work. I am excited that we have you here at mna, and I'm also excited that we have you here on MU Talks to introduce you to our very, very, very large audience. But I do want tens of people. Please, please Rob, please don't.

Has it grown that much?

Yes, it has actually grown that much. But we want to do a rapid fire to get to know Paul Metzger. So Paul Metzger and so Rob, prepare your very, very good questions. I'll start just to give Renee and Rob a chance. So rapid fire this is, you know, you don't have to think a lot about these questions. We just trying to get you to know you. If you could move anywhere in the world right now, where would you go?

Kyoto, Japan.

Favorite book that you've written?

The Bible. No, I didn't write the Bible. Every time Paul's quoted, you know, people say Paul said look up. It's a different Paul. My favorite book, I don't know, maybe connecting Christ.

Okay.

Favorite book of the Bible, Connecting Christ. No, I would have to say today. Today, the Gospel of Mark.

Oh, wow.

Just today. Usually it's the Gospel of John, but I'm reading Mark right now and I'm just really blown away from Jesus's passion.

I'm giving. Well, I'm not giving you the uno reverse card. You can't, you can't use that. But if you want to ask follow up questions, why, like you can, because some of these answers that he gives, like the Paul gives, they're very intriguing to me.

Best looking faculty member at Multnomah University.

Rob Hilderburg.

Thank you very much. I get that a lot.

But you're the one asking the question.

And, and 100% sent that Paul does not have to read Emotional Intelligence just with that answer right there, like he does. He actually is emotionally intelligent. So another question. If you could have any superpower, well, not that you don't have many that we know of, but if you could have any superpower, what would it be?

If it's a superpower, I think it would be the holy love of God in Christ. I think that's the greatest power in the world.

Came back spiritual. Any you just your favorite class that you teach?

All of them. I, I really do. I mean, I, I don't have a favorite. I'm sorry, I teach students.

Yeah, I get it.

Okay. Renee, anything?

Oh, let's see. What is, what is one movie show some type of entertainment that you go back to over and over again?

Well, go back to. I'd have to say the movie Crash really speaks to me. If you're talking about like a movie or something like that. Yeah, the movie Crash. Just the way it starts out. You know, in la we miss that sense of touch so much as they are in a Car crash. The police detective played by Don Cheady, saying, we miss that sense of touch so much. We crash into one another in la. We're always hiding behind metal and glass. And I think, you know, whether it's metal and glass in LA or something else here or there, the sense of touch, that connection to people's lives, you know, Portland is cool, it's hip hop, but often tolerance covers indifference. And I think that sense of touch, you know, because it's about racism in the movie Crash with that, it's about objectification and fragmentation, as someone else told me once about that, I think that's true and I think it really speaks volumes of the need of the hour in our society.

Oh, beautiful.

One song everyone should listen to once. One song, any song.

Okay. You know, I've really been impressed with that song, the Hill song song Oceans. It's really spoken to me as I'm with my son. Another song that really speaks to me personally is Nirvana's Dumb, his own tortured soul. You know, it just. It really speaks to me his own struggle as a person on his last album. So those are two songs from very different perspectives.

Oh, wow. Well, I have. I have one for you, Paul. If you could speak to people 50 years from now, what would you tell them? From your expertise, from your area, from your heart, whether any. Any of those areas, what would you tell people 50 years from now?

Well, I can't do better than the following. It's what come to. Came to my mind. But, you know, Carl Bart, who I did my doctoral work on, did my first book on his theology in terms of cultural import, you know, when he was here in the States for his one visit toward the end of his life, someone asked him, I don't know if it was at the University of Chicago or Princeton or Union Seminary. They asked him, professor Barth, what is the most profound thing you have ever come across in your studies? You know, he wrote in the church dogmatics alone, 6 million words. That was just his major work, but he wrote a ton more than that. And he said in his Swiss English, you know, he wasn't a refined speaker of English, but he spoke it clearly enough. And he said the most profound thing to him was, Jesus loves me. This I know, for the Bible tells me so.

That's great.

Considered the greatest theologian of the 20th century. And he wasn't too proud or too wise to get at the real core, because that's really what it boils down to. Because at the end of the day, a lot of things are just smoke. And mirrors. And what I need more than ever as I enter those hallways in my son's facility is Jesus walks these halls and he loves these people that the society often forgets about. Jesus loves us, loves them. This we know. For the Bible tells me so. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. I think it doesn't get any better than that. So what more would I have then to go back to John 3:16. Oh, wow.

Well, we have come to the end of our time on this episode. I wish this would be twice, but the. The length of how much we could talk to Dr. Paul Metzger. Just a quick, just a quick recap of the things that you've heard today. Not that I could actually ever do that, but uh, just the highlights of the fact that you've heard about Cultural Encounters and you can actually read Cultural Encounters for yourself@cultural encounters.com I think it is. If not, just go to it's.org me those things. Yes. Well, go to. Go to any search bar that you have on your browser and put Cultural Encounters and you will. You will have to decide for yourself if it's.com or.org but click on that link. You actually get to read more than 16 volumes. And I actually really am excited about the two coming up right now. On Conspiracy. I'm pretty sure nobody is really interested these days of nationalism, Conspiracy and all these. There's no discussion about these topics at all in our society.

Apocalyptic UFOs. We're dealing with all of it.

Oh yeah, no, people were not using Revelation, the book of Revelations as a checklist for the things that are happening right now. Yeah, they're not. So I'm sure I'm, you know, very interested to see who's going to read this. But I know for a fact I will be reading these because it's important to at least have ways to articulate this thoughts that we have. And, and the thought leaders that you found so far are doing that for us. I'm thankful you've also heard New Wine. New Wine is a standalone organization, nonprofit organization, also a center in an institute at Multnomah University. New Wine, New Wineskin. And you will see many forums actually organized by New Wine. The last forum we've had, which was a brilliant, brilliant event. I really enjoyed it on community economic development.

Development.

I mean that discussion was great. So thank you, thank you, Paul for putting that together.

And that was recorded. So.

And that. Yes, that's Online that is available, you can find new wine, new wineskin, it's easy actually find, find them on Google, find them on YouTube channel, everywhere. And Dr. Paul, Dr. Paul Metzger, because he came here pro bono, we didn't, he didn't charge us for, he didn't charge us for this episode. You can also find his many, many published books if you just look for his name. So I want to thank you again, Dr. Paul Metzger for being with, with us. Thank you for the openness of answering the rapid fire questions. That's never an easy thing to do. And any concluding thoughts, Renee Rob and then we'll allow the last word to be Dr. Paul Misker.

Yeah.

Hey.

This conversation has just been so uplifting and I love to just think through my life, the people that I interact with, the issues that I hear about and that I, I get to think about critically and the way that Jesus enters into those. I think that the thing that caught me the most from what you said to take away from this is that all of those issues really are about people and that is reflected in the way that Jesus taught here on earth. And it needs to be reflected in the way that I engage the culture around me, the people around me and all of these quote unquote issues.

Thank you.

Good to hear. Thanks for coming.

Dr. Palmer's good concluding thoughts.

Yeah, I'm working on a book right now on moral vision, engaging our world in terms of ethical issues. And you know, we need to move from a culture of things to persons, as Dr. King said in his Vietnam War sermon, 1967, April 4, killed a year later to that very day before 1968. But we need to move from a culture of things to persons. And I think that issue is more alive today than ever before in our market driven society where the only thing that has value is economics. Market economy, that's one thing. But market driven society is a real problem, as Michael Sandel says in his book on that subject. So I think how do we move from a culture of things to persons? Do we treat people as persons or as things? That's something just constantly on my mind. How do I treat people? Do I use them for my my own ends or do I see them as ends in themselves, as created by our loving personal holy God?

Well, that's not just a concluding thought. That has to be a part two of our conversation. That has to be part two of our conversation and a good topic. Renee, please keep us accountable to make sure that this happens, that we have Dr. Paul Metzger again here with us.

Can I have my office back and keys to my office? Can I? Eline took it away.

This is so funny. And it's gonna be heard by thousands and thousands of people that I took keys away from other Palmer. Rob.

Rob, you're kind of the office bully. He really is the Canadian men.

He really is Canadian Mennonites. They're the worst.

I know those guys.

They're really tough.

We have trouble, gentlemen. We were doing so good. We were doing so good with this podcast.

Okay, part two.

Here we go. Here go we. Here we go. Rob, you know what you have to do, especially after these last discussions.

The the preceding podcast was a production of a couple guys. One lady. Three guys, actually. This time, one lady sitting in a room. We do not represent the official positions of Alum University or its abilities.

Yep.

Just opinions.

Thank you for being with us. Appreciate.

Sam.