Embracing the Mess and Finding Joy In the Journey with Dave Hollis

Thank you for tuning in to the True Grit and Grace podcast. I'm Amberly Lago, and I'll be sharing inspirational stories of resilience and empowering ideas to elevate your business and your life, ignite your passion, and fuel your purpose. Hey, y'all, thank you for tuning in. I am introducing to you, if you You probably already know him. I think most everybody in the whole world knows Mr. Dave Hollis. Oh my goodness. He is the daddy of 4 of the most amazing, rad kids. They're the cutest things I've ever seen. You can check them out on his social media. He is the New York Times bestselling author. I've got his book right here if you're seeing it on YouTube, Built Through Courage. He's got one of my favorite podcasts. You probably have already heard it, but it's called Rise Together. He's one of the most incredible speakers. I've followed his work for a long time, but finally got to meet him in person when we shared the stage at an event called Align Ambition. He's a coach. He's an ally. He's a runner. He loves sports memorabilia. And I don't know, I think he plays guitar too. So Dave, welcome to the show.

Oh, Amberly, thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for being a friend, but also for introducing me to your audience more formally. I appreciate it.

Oh, you're amazing. I have just loved your book. And we were saying before we hit record, I was just like, I feel so blessed that you are pouring into my audience because you've taken a long break from social media. And actually, Dave, your book actually inspired me to take a break when I read how you took a 3-day break and went into the desert. And I thought, you know, I need to take a break too. In 5 years, I've never taken a break and it's just been go, go, go. And I know for a long time, because I used to watch your, your morning lives with your former wife, Rachel Hollis. So what made you decide to take this break? Because I think a lot of us need a break from things right now.

Oh my goodness. Well, this is gonna be the longest answer in the history of time. It's not as simple as I woke up one day and decided, you know what, a break is the right thing in a whole host of ways. And this is again, like, At the time, I didn't appreciate the blessing that was being kind of forced to my knees in some respects, to the point that a break was necessary. But there were just a string of really wild circumstances that I didn't anticipate coming in the release of this book that you just were holding on the screen. In so many ways, the events of 2020, where my marriage ended, this company that I'd helped build that I thought I might work at for the rest of time was now something I was transitioning away from. I went through this really hard season of trying to figure out what next was going to look like now that it most definitely wasn't going to look like what it had. And in a crazy way, because of what for me was in my youngest years, like programming-wise, achievement for me was my way to be loved. If I could achieve anything, you know, knowing Bible verses or scoring goals or getting good grades, whatever it was. I'd be seen, and in that light, I'd have access to the love of the people I wanted love from the most. And in the aftermath of that end of marriage, man, I was feeling 2 kind of big things. A lot of fear, like, what in the world is this, you know, next part of my life, the rest of my life, going to look like? And I was feeling a decent amount of rejection. Like, I just, you know, wasn't anticipating that divorce was going to be part of my story. And in that Right? In the fear, in a lot of ego games that kind of sit inside of both the fear and the rejection. I went to my good old standby, and that was, I got to go out and achieve some things to prove that I am lovable outside of the construct that I previously was living inside of, married to this person, inside of a company that was supporting the work that I was doing. And for that first, like, year's worth of time, It was the good side of the sword, as it were. Like, I was super proud of working on and finishing this book and working toward what will end up being a kid's book that's gonna come out here pretty quick about tea time with my daughter.

Mm-hmm.

I made a documentary about the experience of making my way through divorce that was meant to be in theaters. And I walked into some work with Heidi and ultimately a fitness community. But like, All of it was just like, I need to keep on running and running so that I can, in some ways through achievement, establish for anyone who might be doubting my worthiness or my lovability, that I am in fact loved. And I was really proud of so much of what had been built. But what I didn't appreciate was that there were some seeds that had been planted at the end of my marriage in just almost 2 years to the day. In May of 2020, that—

Has it been 2 years?

Isn't it crazy how time works? I mean, what is time? Don't know. But it's amazing that 2 years now has gone by. But there was something planted in that season in May of 2020 that ended up poking through the ground in October of 2021, which was when this second book of mine was coming out. And in that, I found myself without any objectivity for how to measure this book that is arguably easily the thing that I am proudest of ever having created in a long career in entertainment and then in entrepreneurship. Man, it's just the thing I'm the most proud of. But when trying to get the press tour lined up wasn't actually producing the same kind of results as that first book did, As the preorder numbers were starting to come in, all of these things that had been sitting in unprocessed stuff from marriage and divorce were having some of my, call it self-doubt or lack of confidence or imposter syndrome or whatever. Man, the critic in my head was a mean voice that basically started just barking, hey, you don't deserve to be here. You don't deserve to be here. You didn't deserve the opportunity to even write a book in the first place. All of the success that you've experienced previously in this space was a byproduct of proximity to one of the most prolific writers of a decade or a century or whatever you want to say. And in the absence of the support of a company that you'd helped build or the partnership that you maybe previously had, you don't deserve to be here. And I let that feeling fuel that thing that I do in achievement. And I just worked and worked and worked until it morphed into me pleading with people to buy this thing that I was proud of because I was so fixated on, can I make the list again? Can I sell a certain number of copies? And in the absence of those things, that not hitting a list or not selling a certain number of copies was going to confirm this voices chirping that, uh, that I wasn't worthy of being here in the first place. And so I, I know— That just—

I mean, I just wish I could hug you right now because, I mean, that's so understandable with everything that you went through, how you— I mean, I can see where I would go. I would do the same thing, I guarantee you, because I'm the same way. I was an achiever to get love, you know, made straight-A students, was the president of just about everything was, you know, Miss Greenville High School. And looking back, I'm like, that was my way of feeling worthy and loved. And so I could imagine, and I guarantee you, if you ask any New York Times bestselling author, they probably have that pressure, is probably tremendous when they write another book. Is it going to make the list again? Is it going to do, you know, that's a lot of pressure on yourself.

Yeah.

So So what did you start to do to like handle the pressures of all that?

Yeah, I mean, I'll just add one extra layer because it's an interesting thing. My decision to leave the Walt Disney Company after my 17-year career, I was in my head a bit on how people might receive this choice that made sense to me but not to them, to go pursue doing this work with my now ex-wife for what I believed again to be the rest of time. And I think in the aftermath of divorce, There was now more than just the pressure that I was putting on myself to show that I could, you know, stand on my own outside of my marriage. There was also this bizarre thing of, I hope I can now still, to the people that, by the way, aren't paying attention, likely never were, justify that I made a good choice in leaving this head of sales role that I had at the Walt Disney Company to pursue this work. So the pressure was, you know, stacking on top of each other, on top of each other in somewhat of layers. But what did I do? You know what I did. I ended up making some choices that were me reverting back to some of the worst coping mechanisms that I had always gone back to rather than facing the things that I was feeling and dealing necessarily with them. One, I just kept running, and 2, I started drinking again after having had some long periods of what I would call abstinence, but not necessarily recovery.

Mm-hmm.

In that I'd made some choices to not drink previously, but hadn't really done the excavatory work of really understanding some of the things that were sitting underneath inside of mental health that were having alcohol present more as a symptom of that not processed stuff. And here I found myself drinking to not wanna deal with the way that I was feeling, to not wanna hear that voice in my head, to not want to believe some of what was now confirmation bias from people who on the outside were suggesting some of the things that I was myself believing in, some of my worst insecurities kind of showing up online. It created a November and December that was just darkness. You know, like, I mean, I know better. I know that drinking has never been a solution necessarily that has produced happiness. It's certainly a muting agent and is a kick the can down the road kind of thing so you don't have to deal in real time. But in the midst of really being hard on myself, adding the shame that has come over my lifetime with drinking was just the worst. And it was one of those things where I finally coming out of a Christmas week that started with me not having my kids for the first time on Christmas Day, ended with me staring down the end of an empty bottle once again. Like, all right, this is not a way to roll into a new year. The things that I've been doing are not a sustainable long-term plan. As much as it pains me to have to admit it, I absolutely need to get some help, both for my mental health and for drinking. So I found a place that was able to help me tend to both, a treatment facility for 8 weeks at a time where I went in and on the door it was like, hey, we satisfy, uh, people who are looking for help in mental health and people who are looking for help around substances. And I was like, but Check. Uh, I need help with both of those things. And as much as, man, there was a ton of shame in having to even confess that help was a thing I needed, or that I was, you know, gonna inconvenience literally every single person that I love and care for the most.

Mm-hmm.

It was one of the best decisions, certainly, of my adult life. And an opportunity to really, instead of running from all of those things that I felt myself running from, do the thing that I should have done in the first place, which was turn around Sit and face those things. And as it turns out, 8 weeks of time inside of treatment, surrounded by professionals and other people that might normalize why you feel what you feel and how you feel what you feel— gosh, it was just such an unbelievable salve to stop something of a pattern and start a recovery journey that'll take the rest of my life, day by day, to continue to make it a successful thing.

Well, thank you for sharing that. I mean, it takes so much courage. I can say that when I decided to get sober, that was the, the scariest thing to me was I walked into a room, a 12-step recovery room. My hands were shaking. I was scared to death. It took such courage. And this was when I lived in California, and I walked in and I sat between a nun and a girl wearing a cowboy, a cowboy hat. And I was like, where the heck am I? But sitting in that room and, and hearing hope and having people understand, it's a relief. It's like, oh, I can stop running. I can just face it. And it was hard. And I think I was a blubbering mess though, for like a year. And you, like the work you've done really shows. Because you look great, you're so well-spoken, you can talk about it. And so I just really applaud the courage that it took to go that— and I know, go through that. And I know that so many people are going to be inspired to face their fears and go into recovery and work on their mental health. And I think too, you know, being on social media and having your company and launching this book and all these things, and to Stop and say that you want to take care of your mental and physical health. I'm sure that has inspired more people than you know to really do the same for themselves. But I'm sure it also had to be hard to deal with some of the trolls out there that pop up on the internet. So how do you deal with that now when there's someone, or do you even see? Have you even been on the internet at all to see any trolls? Because I've always seen people who have spoken. so highly of you and love you. And so it comes as a shock to hear you say that people might say some things, that inner bully in your head, because we all have that inner critic, that inner bully I like to call it, that can be mean. But you said you had some people on the internet that were kind of confirming that, yep, that inner critic is right.

Yeah. Well, I mean, this gets back to the question you asked at the beginning that I didn't actually answer, but part of what I think the beautiful benefit of taking time away. And I'd ended up doing something that was outpatient in Los Angeles, Monday through Friday, was able to come back and see the kids on weekends. But for all intents and purposes, I was stepping away from life. In doing so, I was walking into rooms every single day that were, come as you are, you're welcome just as you are. And part of the beauty of being able to walk into that space or any kind of a 12-step kind of room is that there was this invitation to own every single part of you without shame, without there being judgment, in a way that for maybe the first time in my adult life has afforded me access to loving myself, all of who I am, even the parts that I don't necessarily love that, you know, still exist or still need work to be done. And as I'm in the midst of this kind of epiphany and the blessing of this discovery, I am realizing in real time that I'm still consuming a community that is, you know, intermittently having me have a different way of thinking about myself, right? Like, there was plenty of time, certainly, during the rocket ship that was the beginnings of Rachel and I building out the Hollis Company with all that was being afforded. There was a lot more applause than there was criticism. And there is something in the speed with which, uh, you know, I, I didn't ever have any kind of ambition to be a public-facing human being, and it just kind of happened over time. I'm happy to not be known by as many people as plenty of other people who are actually famous. I'm nowhere near that. But there was—

I don't know, Dave, I think you are.

I do know, absolutely I know. But the headline though is that, uh, also becomes a double-edged sword in that If you live by their applause, then you'll die by their criticism.

Mm-hmm.

And as I found in the aftermath of divorce, that was a surprise to this community that had created such connection and intimacy with us, in part because of 5-day-a-week morning shows for 2 and a half years worth of time. And the way that there was just such a connection inevitably, like, yeah, there was frustration and there was disappointment and there was sadness, even anger. And to me, it's like unbelievably justified. I felt all of those things. And yet, in some small pocket, and it's a small, small percent of an audience, some of that frustration did in fact become something of a, well, let's go ahead and go after. Let's take a swipe. Let's take a swing. And I found myself conscientious of, oh no, there's something unhealthy in this for you, Dave, that when you get the likes or get the comments or get the praise, you feel good about yourself. But when you're getting the criticism, and even, you know, at times the criticism that goes so far as to be what feels like trolly or hate-oriented, it really, really starts to kind of like embed in your mind and makes you think differently about yourself. Well, that means you need to create something of a boundary until either you're able to create a bit more resilient a shell so that what anyone thinks, whether it's good or bad, your love for yourself and your connection to who you are and who you know yourself to be is so strong that nobody, whatever their vote ends up being, can sway your opinion of who you are, or you need to choose to have a career that isn't public-facing, right? Like, it's like, it's kind of one of those things. So, uh, I have stepped away in part because I have this recognition that, man, I have a lot of work left to do on myself. Like, I dig an introduction to a podcast where you're going through my credentials, but like the thing that I am more than anything is a messy, imperfect, awesome human who is very much a work in progress and very much trying to every single day get to know myself better and become just a little bit stronger in what for me is a reset year of really trying to tend to some of the foundational stuff that hadn't frankly been tended to in the aftermath of divorce so that whatever I end up building next, it's built on something of a stronger foundation. And me being influenced by what people think, good or bad, is actually in some ways a distraction from my ability to tend to that foundation. And so for me, it's like, until I'm at a place where I feel like I can, as a creator, create and then separate myself from my creation completely, right? If like it, fantastic. If you don't like it, also fantastic. It wasn't meant for you. Then I'm going to have to, you know, until I get to that place, I'm just going to take a little bit more time and keep spending time with therapists or in meetings or with my kids. I mean, like, the things that are most important, of course, live outside of the internet. And the distance from anything that happens inside of social media has been such a blessing just to become appreciative of how not real it all is in real life when you create some distance from it.

Wow. Yeah.

Yeah.

And you know what? I remember when I got my first, like, hater, like people hating on me, like, and I was in a support group for people that have complex regional pain syndrome like me. And I thought, those are my people. And I was on the doctor's TV and they cut out part of the interview. And so it just looked like I get through, you know, this devastating chronic pain every day just with my mindset. That's all I do. It's all with my mind. And so there were people coming out of the woodwork that were hating on me. And I was about to go speak at a women's empowerment conference. And I was sitting in the chair getting my hair done with just tears rolling down my face. And I called my husband and I was like, oh my gosh, I keep getting the the, the notifications, because it was on Facebook, of all— every time somebody was hating, it was like, no, these pings, notifications. And I had to like get out of the group and just turn my phone off. And I told my husband, I was like, I had no— I did not want these people to hate me. I'm trying to do good in the world. I'm trying to help. And he was like, congratulations. No, that's good that you got some people hating on you.

Yeah.

That means that you are getting out there. Your message is getting out there. He's just got, I guess, a very resilient skin. Also too, he's not the one that's putting himself out there on the public. He doesn't even like being in my stories on Instagram, much like less TV. But it really made me believe in my message even more. I thought, this is a good opportunity for me to go, okay, well, is what I'm sharing— is this thing that I'm teaching, is it what really works for me? And I'm like, hell yeah, it does. Like, I'm still working on it and fine-tuning. But yeah, I'm going to keep sharing. And so I think it was a moment for me to really either walk away or believe in my message even more. So I love in your book— well, there's so many things I love in your book. And oh, before I forget, I have to tell you this, this one part. So I'm— I love Audible too. So I have your book on the Audible version as well. And I was listening to this one part about, you know, how important it is to have your accountability partner and this and that. And I've— I'm listening to it and I roll up in the driveway and my husband's there and I'm thinking, oh, he's my accountability partner. And he like flips me off. That was his, his loving hello to me.

That's right.

And I was, I was like, dude, you need to read this book because you need to— no, but anyway, I thought that part was funny, but you have so much in the book that I love. So I've got highlights in the hardback and then the Audible. But you had said God doesn't call the qualified, he qualifies the called. So what do you think it is right now, Dave, that you are called to do? And what is your next thing that you really want to pursue?

Isn't this an interesting thing? I mean, the thing is, I— gosh, I love the book so much. And I also I mean, this is not even about this passage, but like, I wish that I had actually heeded the advice of the book in the midst of my own being confronted with all of my greatest fear, because this idea of being built through courage is something that is a daily practice. It is irrespective of whatever circumstance you find yourself in, a thing that you're going to have to do, or you get to learn things the hardest way possible. And so like, in a crazy way, This question is one of timing in real time, because I absolutely 100% felt in September before this October release that God had put me on this planet to write these books and speak on these stages and to host this podcast and to do this work of attempting to be light in a way that might afford people by seeing themselves in my stories, something of feeling normal, and empowered and encouraged to themselves become light bearers and do this thing that I suggest, which is to honor the intention of your creator, right? I think all of us were put here for a very specific and important reason. And it takes courage to step into it and stand into it, because a lot of times it requires facing a whole host of things that are uncomfortable, being outside of something that might be familiar, A lot of failure and a lot of learning from it. And so in real time, I mean, I am here in this season of slowing down to assess like, what, God, do you want me to do with this life? Like, I am 100% certain, though I wouldn't have sequenced the events in the order that they have happened since May of 2020, that I am closer to becoming this version of who God wants me to be and the bearer of light. because of, not in spite of, the experiences that I've gone through. But in the beginning of 2020, I actually wrote this line that's in the book: in this rush to return to normal, let's use this time to consider which parts of normal are worth rushing back to. And so in a big way, 2022 for me has been a season of stepping back and really assessing What of what has existed should exist going forward? What of what has existed honors the intention of this creator? And what of what existed was driven by ego, was driven by fear, was driven by whatever it might be? The thing I want most is to live in integrity with who I say I am, but also who I'm meant to be. And I don't want to try and like manufacture something.

Mm-hmm.

that I think will please other people, or that I think will satisfy some of my need for ego or for, you know, squashing fear. And so my short-term answer is, I'm figuring it out. I am working through right now, how might I create some options that live outside of the public realm?

Mm-hmm.

So that if in fact, a decision to not return to social media, not return to being a public-facing human were a thing, what might I do? And so, in these last couple of months, I have tried to tap into a thing that I believe to be one of my Liam Neeson-like special set of skills in that I have had a history at Disney with Rachel, even with Heidi, and building some of what we've built in this fitness community as an integrator. There's this great book called Rocket Fuel. There are people that are integrators. There are people that are visionaries. One person casts the vision or says this is what they want to do. the other person figures out how. And I, for whatever reason, have been given a set of skills around the how. And so I have been asking, is there a way for me to test if this is a thing that I can wake up every day feeling like it's not work because I'm just so excited to go do it? And so in the shortest term, I have found 3 different partners inside of the nonprofit space who, when I asked, hey, do you have any problems Is there any chance that some of my skills in problem solving and puzzle figuring out could be applied here to help you either reach a broader audience or better serve the people that you're raising money for, or figure out fundraising in general, whatever it might be? And so in the short term, I've been diving in thinking that maybe there's something there, at least in creating options. And I've also, like, I've been writing as I have been going through this experience, Whether or not I write another book, I'll see. There's certainly a whole host of things that I'm learning in real time that feel like they lend themselves to sharing some of this experience in that kind of a format. But for right now, loving on and living into some work with foster care, with some work that's happening around Down syndrome community, and some work that's happening around generational poverty in third world countries and how to come around and support local leaders to help fix that cycle, break that cycle, has been where I'm spending some time to see if some of the nonprofit work could potentially be a seed that's being planted for some for-profit business in the future. And I'm taking it slow. I mean, there's privilege in even having the ability to take it slow. So I acknowledge that as well. But, you know, when you find yourself somewhat lost, you can find yourself every once in a while in the service of others. And I know impact was the original catalyst for wanting to leave the Walt Disney Company. Impact was at the core of the mission of the Hollis Company. Impact was the thing I was hoping for in writing books and doing a podcast. And whether it's me as a person, forward-facing, public-facing, that's trying to deliver that impact, or me as an integrator trying to support the work of others that are hoping to impact others, I think that my, you know, being equipped always will come back around to impact and how to best use what I've been given to help others. How that takes shape or what form it takes, I'll let you know.

Well, you know what, I think you have been resilient from the very beginning, even when you were first starting out, how you went for a job. And you, you were willing to do whatever it took to figure out how to get that job. You even like traded in your nutrition and lived on ramen noodles so you could buy your own plane ticket and get to a job. And I love the story you tell about how you had a job and you were going to do it, and you had to go out and scalp tickets or something, or hold the fort down. One thing that I have noticed about you is you are so brilliant in how you think about Well, that way didn't work. Maybe I could do it this way. Maybe I could do it. And I think part of being resilient is just figuring out ways of doing things and putting puzzles together. And you seem to have— that is like something that I, I see in you just from reading your book, some of the experiences that you've had. So I'm excited to see what you do. I feel like everything that you touch actually turns to gold.

Oh, you're so sweet. I, I appreciate all the kindness. The reality is I, I find myself more a student than teacher than any other time in my entire life. Like, I really am, and I'm super comfortable acknowledging that the experiences of these last couple of years, though amazing in so many ways, have also really had me come to appreciate how much more I have when it comes to learning and growing and understanding. And part of what I hope, in whatever work I end up doing, is that I'm always able to maintain something of a— I mean, normal sounds weird, because what is normal, but like, human, you know, like, Mm-hmm. I am on this journey of what it is to be human, messy and imperfect and work in progress as it is. And, you know, like if there was anything maybe that I've learned in what I wish I, you know, wouldn't have, you know, maybe tried to kind of live into or curate, there's something that happens in success. It's certainly inside of personal development that in some ways suggests that when you do struggle or you do find yourself still wrestling with more questions than answers, that it's hard sometimes to be as kind of honest about the messy nature of what it is to just be human. And I'm— if there's anything that I'm committing to in everything that going forward will be a part of my work, it's that I am like the person who I'm hanging out with online or that might read something in a book, figuring it out as I go. And I hope that tomorrow I'm just a little bit better than I am today. I wish that I didn't have to learn things absolutely what feels like at times in the hardest way possible. And yet, I'm, you know, bizarrely, like, I have just so much gratitude for things having happened exactly as they have. I mean, if anyone's listening and you're, you know, having a hard time letting go of having gotten in your own way or reached for that coping mechanism again, or a mistake that you believe there's no way you're ever going to recover from. I can say with a high degree of certainty that the mistakes that I've made, at the time, they felt like absolute garbage. I wish I hadn't made them. And in many respects, they end up being the things that I can credit for having saved my life or drawing focus to something that, because of now seeing it in a different light, has created wild freedom from a whole host of things that previously had me imprisoned. And so, I don't know, I'm probably going to step in it plenty of times, and hopefully in sharing the experience of what it is to step in it, it normalizes that as a thing that all of us as human beings do, to talk honestly about, you know, all of it and any of it. Hopefully it's just an invitation for you to feel a little bit more normal and to, in that, have the courage that, man, there's nothing, there's nothing about this that's a lifetime indictment. You can also pick yourself back up, dust yourself off, be grateful at some point for the learnings that you get, and keep on keeping on.

Yeah, and we're all just trying to figure it out. I mean, come on, we're all figuring it out. Well, how— what would you say to somebody who is trying to reframe failure? Because I know a lot of people— I mean, I have people message me and I feel like they are so fixed and stuck on the past of what they used to do or what they used to be, and they can't stop focusing on that and trying to go back to that or, or get over this failure. What would you say to somebody who is feeling kind of stuck and like they can't move forward? What is their first step?

Well, I think the first step is to find examples of people that you admire and recognize how many failures it took for them to become someone that you admire. Like, just normalizing that failure as a prerequisite for anything in growth or anything in creating something of meaning or anything that ends up feeling like purpose is a requirement. I mean, I ended up leaving this job at Disney, not for any other reason other than I'd stopped growing. There wasn't, because of what at the time was this collection of Marvel, Pixar, Disney, and Lucasfilms, there wasn't an opportunity for me to fail. And that wasn't a suggestion that I was so good at my job. Most people that are listening could have had a pretty decent job of selling those kinds of movies, Star Wars and Avengers films, to movie theaters. They needed them. And in the absence of being able to fail, I had stopped growing. And it was part of why at this 40-year-old crossroads, this existential set of questions had popped up of, is this all there is? Like, why doesn't this feel more meaningful? Or why can't I connect more deeply to purpose? I dig driving shareholder value for the Walt Disney Company, but it felt like, hey, there's got to be something more. And man, making a leap into entrepreneurship, putting myself out there for the first time as an author or trying to host a podcast, like, those were things I was guaranteed to not be great at at the first go. And In every single example of anything that the company created, anything I personally have created, the willingness to be uncomfortable and try to do something that was guaranteed because of it being early on in my doing it, probably not so well at the beginning kind of a phase, I was going to fail. And so knowing that that is the prerequisite for growth, that growth is the thing that's necessary for you to feel something in fulfillment, You got to decide, are you going to be okay with being okay? Are you going to stick with suffering that you're familiar with? Or are you going to realize that, man, every person that you admire has walked towards failure? They've had to be courageous in doing it. It didn't feel great when it was happening. But on the other side, they were able to take whatever learning came from that failure and use it as information. And that's really what the reframe ends up being. You know, failure is just information. It's giving you the breadcrumbs of how to do it differently or better the next time. And if you can see it that way, maybe you can take some of the poison of what it means to fail or how you might be seen if you were to fail and turn it on its head. It's not easy at first. It's not easy ever. I hate failing. And yet, you know, the times that I do—

Boy, you learn.

You learn. You absolutely learn. But when you can get quiet and objective, you get a chance to see it for what it is. And in a weird way, time ends up being the great equalizer. In time, you get to see every failure as something you can be grateful for because of everything that you've grown out of having stepped in it in the first place?

Oh, yeah, I think that for me, being a professional dancer in LA and getting failures, rejections, not getting the gigs, getting cut, getting, you know, on release, you know, or on hold for a job, and, oh, sorry, you're released from that job. Like, it was constant. It was almost an everyday thing. So I got really good at reframing as, okay, that was a no. What can— how can I get better? And that means I'm one step closer to a yes. And so it really helped me as an entrepreneur just to keep going and learning and putting myself out there. And I purposely leave even my first post that I did on Instagram. You know, you see some people that like, wow, they started off with 200,000 likes on their post. I leave my crappy post up where I didn't even know what a hashtag was. You know, didn't know how to do a caption. It was terrible, but I leave it up there because I want people to know we all— like, we start— I'm still learning and growing. And I think that when you can look at it that way, it makes life more fun, more interesting. Um, so I love that you share that.

Um, I would say this too, for any parents out there. I mean, this is like the problem any of us face in this balance of wanting to have our kids experience all joy all the time versus actually learning some of the things that they might take into adulthood. I've had my kids, you know, try out for plays or run for student government. And I'll be honest, like, there's a kind of two-sides version of me that doesn't know if I'm rooting for them to get the part or process not getting it, to win the election or process not winning it. Part of why I think we as adults, you know, certainly the kids that we're raising now, when they're adults, have trouble with failure is that we just haven't had it modeled as a thing that's just part of becoming. And, you know, certainly to any kind of helicopter parent instincts that any of us might have in trying to preserve the happiness of our kids, I'm not sure that we're doing them any service whatsoever in not allowing them over and over to fail, to just make it seem so every single day a thing that can happen. It's not going to kill them. It hopefully doesn't have them now becoming avoidant of the possibility of failing because of, you know, exposure to it. And those that have are going to, of course, develop the grit. They're going to develop the resiliency. They're going to find ways to take failure and turn it into something positive, so long as they've had a chance to be exposed to it, not kept from it because of us wanting to make sure they don't get their little feelers hurt.

Seriously? Yeah, I mean, my daughter's a horseback rider. She competes, and man, sometimes she's been thrown off the horse. Sometimes she, you know, the horse has thrown her when she's going out the gate and she's been disqualified when they're like, but she did the course perfectly. It's like, nope, you learn. You, you know, you— and so it's been really helpful.

Yeah.

For her. And then I'm playing— I just got invited to play in this Celebrity Softball Tournament that's coming up.

Oh, yes.

Well, you're good with any sports and love sports that have anything to do with the ball, Dave. I am not. Like, one of my fears is I'm scared to death of the ball. It's real. Like, it's a real fear. Like, it would come at me and I'd be like, you know. And so my daughter's been coaching me through this and she'll be like, seriously, Mom, you can't act like that when you're on the field. And my husband's like, you need to tell them, no, you going to do this. And I'm like, no, I said yes. I'm going to practice every day and I'm showing up for that. And I have had everyone in my family saying, you're crazy. I can't believe you said yes to that. And then of course, my cousin's like, do you realize the Dallas Cowboy quarterback is on your team? Are you sure you want to play? And I'm like, yeah, just let me know who that quarterback is because I probably won't recognize him. I don't know about sports. But I want to set an example for my daughter that, look, I'm not good at this, but I'm going to practice every day and I'm going to show up doing my best. People might laugh at me, but I'm going to have fun, you know. And I want her to know that she can do the same, like work hard towards something, you know.

But I don't want to put any additional pressure on this for you, but I played in a game, a celebrity softball thing— celebrity very loosely used, let's be very clear— uh, in last fall. And it was with the Green Bay Packers. Now, anytime you get professional athletes on a field in a charity anything, there's still like— I don't know that they know how to turn off the competitive juices, as it were. And as much as I love me some softball, slid into second base one time, broke my ankle, tells you about how great I am. I never felt the pressure like I felt from Donald Driver, Greg Jennings, some of the greatest. Packers of all time watching me try to catch a pop fly. So I don't want to put any pressure on you, but there's a chance that Dak is going to be looking you square in the eye when a ball is hit in your direction.

Oh my gosh. Well, I have to tell you that the first day went not so good. I actually got hit right in the face with a ball, bloody nose. I was just like, right away I was like, is it broken? Is it? No, I think it's, I think it's okay. I think my nose isn't broken. But then You know, my husband was just shaking his head and I'm like, I'm not giving up. I'm playing again tomorrow. And I get a little bit of anxiety and you talk a lot about fear and anxiety in your book. I have had anxiety about this. Like I'm excited and I'm trying to switch it over to, oh, that's just excitement. No, it's for real. Like I'm picturing the 15,000 people that are supposed to be there at the Rangers Stadium. And I'm like, why did they ask me to be a part of this? But I'm doing it. But yeah, my— she just turned 14 actually— has been coaching me, which she has never played softball, and she's teaching me how to hold a bat. And I'm like, Ruby, how do you know how to hold this? How do you know about this? She goes, Mom, just believe me. I just know what I'm saying. I'm like, where'd you learn this, on TikTok?

But by the way, every 13-year-old on the planet, that's exactly how they feel about everything. I have a 13-year-old right now who believes himself to be Proficient in, go ahead and fill in the blank. He's got it. It's wild.

Well, you have a ballplayer. One of your kids was just at a tournament playing.

Yeah, he's the one. Yeah, I've got 15, 13, 9, and 5. So 4 schools, 4 different drop-offs, 4 different times. We can talk about that on a different podcast. My 13-year-old is a great baseball player, and it has also been great to watch him. He had a very humbling 2-loss tournament just this weekend. And so it's in real time. I love to see how great they can feel in winning that championship and holding that ring, but I also think it's great to like recognize, oh, we still got some work to do. Um, they, they play in a thing where you can go from AA to AAA. They got bumped up to the more advanced league, and now with better competition, they're recognizing that some of the confidence and hubris that came in, you know, cleaning up at a lower league is now— New levels, new devils. They've got some new things that are being exposed in fundamental work that hadn't previously been exposed. And the good news is for them, guys, this is like, what a gift. You're realizing that you never had to work on base running before, but in this league, you're going to have to work on some base running. So for any of us, you get to a place where you stop growing, you put yourself into something new. That new thing is full of fear, a lot of anxiety, and it's going to shine a light probably when you fail, at the things that now at this new level you got to work on. Thank you very much. Appreciate that. I'm gonna get better at this. I didn't even know that it was a thing I needed to get better at. But now I know it because I put myself in this new place, failed at it, and get to now do some work. So you're gonna be great on the softball field.

Well, I'm gonna have fun. But I like how you say new levels, new devils. It's so true. Yeah, with each level, for sure. That comes up. What do you do when you have a little bit of anxiety?

Anxiety is one of the most present emotions that I've had in my life. And I ended up jumping into this therapy in the aftermath of divorce called Internal Family Systems. It's basically— if you've read the book Untethered Soul, it's kind of an Untethered Soul-esque approach.

I have that book.

Cliff Notes version, you're not your thoughts, you're the observer of your thoughts. And so in this therapy, every emotion that you're having is playing a role, and it believes itself to be playing a role that is helpful to you, even if that feeling is negative. And so I'll give you my example with anxiety. Anxiety for me would pop up. I wouldn't like that it would pop up. I might go on a run. to try and not deal with it. I might have previously had a drink to not deal with it. And the work of this therapy says, hey, instead of trying to push that feeling away, invite that feeling to sit at a table with you in your mind. Starts to sound a little woo-woo here, hooey, whatever.

No, but didn't you name yours Clark or something?

I named mine Clark, yeah. And Clark, I wear my glasses. And so Clark is the Superman-esque counter to— the counter to Superman is Clark. And he would make me feel like I couldn't be my super self. And so I named this part of me Clark, and I would sit down and have something of an investigatory conversation. Hey Clark, what, what role do you believe yourself to be playing here? What brings you to my consciousness? Would you please kind of state your intention? And often this conversation would reveal that there was a part of my life where there was just enough ambiguity That Clark felt it necessary to show up to help focus my attention on the ambiguous part of my life, that if I were to tend to it, create a plan, get some help, speak it out loud, whatever it might be, that it might take his role and make it a thing that he could check the box on. Thanks, Dave, for listening. My job here is done. I've drawn your attention to this thing. You, in having created the plan, makes you now less anxious. You're better prepared for whatever is coming in this portion of your life. and Clark gets to go away. And in that, as much as it sounds— again, like, it sounds a little bit crazy, but like, it has changed the way that I perceive anxiety as it only being a negative thing. Because that feeling, no matter what it is, whether it's sadness or anger or any of the things that you might associate as quote-unquote negative feelings, in the IFS work, like, those feelings don't appreciate that they are good or bad. They just believe themselves to be there to help. And if I can ask them what role they believe to be playing and how they think they're helping, I tend to get to the bottom of why they're there. And it makes me able to better process them, certainly in a way that doesn't require muting or pushing them away.

That is so good. That was one of the most helpful things in the book. That was very helpful because I did the same thing, Dave. I ran. I didn't realize I ran from all of my problems my whole life until After my motorcycle accident and I was stuck in the hospital bed and I couldn't run, I was like, oh, then give me a glass of wine because I need to get rid of all the shame and the fear, everything. And so that was so helpful in your book to read that. One of my favorite things about your book is that you have a logbook, that you have a journaling activity after every chapter. And so it's not just a book for becoming and encouragement, it's like gives you directions. on how to apply all these amazing lessons that you teach into everyone's life. So I love the 4 Gates of Becoming. I love the question that Brendon Burchard asked you, which is awareness, acceptance, accountability.

Accountability.

It was the accountability part that— that's the part I rolled up and my husband flipped me off. So maybe I need to get a different accountability partner. It's just a loving gesture he has for me. His nickname for me is also crazy. I, I, it's a term of endearment, really.

Oh no, it's a love language thing, it sounds like. Here's the headline with, you know, the logbooks generally. I am someone who certainly likes to read, but also there are times when like you're reading something, you're like, man, how the heck do I apply this? Like, what can I do? And so the attempt in the logbook was to take what ends up being a more passive reading experience and turn it into something more active. And so if You're interested in just listening to a book, great, I'll read it to you on Audible. But if you're interested in having the book potentially provoke something in a thought, and then direct you to how you can pull the thread on that thought and make it, you know, potentially actionable in your own life, well, fantastic. There's that kind of an opportunity at the end of every single chapter.

I really recommend that you get right now, the hardcover's on sale. I just looked. Yeah, it's actually less than the paperback. I love a real book. And so I love that. But you know, I have to say, you did You did such an incredible job on your audiobook. Holy cow. Did you get coaching for that?

I mean, I probably picked it up on the field, as it were. I had a lot of time at the Walt Disney Company where I was the spokesperson on behalf of the company to the press. And so there was a lot of media training. There was a lot of making sure—

Dang it, it's good.

Yeah. But thank you. That's so kind of you.

Oh, no, no. It is like— I was like, wow, I wish I could have listened to this before I did my audiobook. audiobook, because you have it. I was like, you have it. And anybody who listens to books, they will know what I mean. Like, you can listen on regular speed, or it's perfectly done so you can read it or listen to it on, you know, 2 times the speed or whatever. I'm like, how did he do that so dang good?

The headline is it's all a long audition. I mean, like, the job that I'm, uh, you know, angling for— I'm wearing the Dodgers cap in real time, you know— Vin Scully Rest his— God rest his soul. Is Vin Scully still alive? I mean, please. He anyway was the broadcaster of my childhood on the Los Angeles Dodgers station. And broadcasting games was like forever and ever the thing I wanted to do more than anything. And so I probably practiced broadcasting baseball games more than anything else between like 12 and 18 years old. I'll go to my kids' baseball game now and I get plenty of looks. Plenty of looks from the parents. They're like, is this guy actually commentating the game as though it was being broadcast around the world? Like, the answer is yes, I actually am. I'm that weirdo. Let's go. Doing something like that with voice work has always been like a little bit—

Oh, you're so good at it. You know what? You're so good at it.

Do not encourage me. Oh my God.

It's— I'm telling you, you—

I—

you're amazing at it. And I love the story of you and Dan Rather too, how you sat on the plane with him.

It was honestly like, you talk about God wink kind of moments. If you haven't read the book, there's this time in the midst of moving from behind the scenes of the business where I was working with Rachel into, hey, I think I'm being called into writing something of my own. I feel like I've got a voice. I'm gonna try it, but I'm just not sure. And I found myself on an airplane and I never speak to anybody on a plane. And here I was sat next to Dan Rather, to give you a sense of how— nerdy I was growing up. Dan Rather was my childhood idol. Like, I love— I loved he and Peter Jennings and Tom Brokaw. I was beside myself. And so I sat down and broke all of my traditional plane protocol and asked if I could ask him a couple of questions. And 2 hours of time went by. He was the most generous person ever.

I have goosebumps right now. I swear, that is such a God wink that you sat next I sat next to him.

And what happened in the conversation is that I was actually reminded of who I wanted to be before I became who I'd become, in that I did have this local— like, I went to Pepperdine University. They had a news channel. I was an anchor for that channel. There was a radio station on campus. I had the vaunted 2:00 AM time slot. Like, oh, how did I get it? I don't know. I was the only one willing to stay up at 2:00 AM, but Like, that was a thing that as a communications major, I had this passion for broadcasting. And I got off the plane and I was just like so poured into by this person that I've idolized and more than lived up to everything I'd ever thought of him. And I thought, man, this thing I wanted to be before I became all of what I did inside of media or, you know, anything inside of helping other people build organizations I wanted to be a reporter.

Wow.

And in like stepping back in a world where, man, I was insecure about writing my first book or hosting a podcast or whatever it might mean, I was like, man, I guess if I was to describe to my 100-year-old grandma what it is that I do, since she asks every time I talk to her, do you have a career? I'm worried about you. I'm like, yeah, don't worry, you're holding a book that I actually wrote. Like, I do have a job. The thing I think I would describe to her is that I'm You know, I'm a reporter. That was the beauty of that moment, was this God-winking moment of like, oh yeah, uh, just a reminder, this person that you looked up to and wanted to be before all of the rest of life unfolded, it's actually the thing that you're doing in real time.

Good work. Yeah. And Dave, I mean, you are so good at it. I remember just watching your regular morning, you know, when you would speak, get on, it was like It was your TV show. It was like, I mean, you're just so naturally good at it where, you know, it's not, it's not a natural thing for me. Let me tell you, when I did my audiobook, I was out, I would go outside and I would be like, okay, I just need to get out of this booth and do some push-ups for a minute. And the guy was looking at me like I was crazy. But you are amazing. So yeah, I really noticed. Um, the difference in yours versus most any other Audible book I've heard. So I am so excited for what's to come for you. Now, I just moved to Dallas. You're in Austin?

I'm in Austin. Well, I'm in Dripping Springs, so Austin adjacent.

Well, I'm in Heath, Dallas adjacent.

Oh, I know nothing about Heath at all, but I'm sure it's lovely this time of year.

Yeah, it is. It's humid. I don't know how much longer I'll keep the straight hair. It's going to be curly here in a minute. But I was in LA for for 31 years and it was a big change. So are you loving it in Austin?

I love it here. The pace of life is amazing. The people, the connection, the like attention to family and all of that. It's amazing. Um, I've been back to LA plenty of times and as much as I miss some people, I don't miss the pace and I don't miss what feels just like a little more chaos. You know, there's a little more space out here. There's a little more nature out here. I think I'm gonna be a Texan, at least for right now anyway. Check with me.

Yeah, well, the reason I'm a Heskin, because you've got that LA hat on. We're here. Austin's different. Little— there's a lot of LA people there. Here we got the plate. I got the plates taken off my car real quick. I was like, I need to get these California plates taken off.

I mean, I got the 818 number off my phone the second I got here because—

You did?

Oh, get your California out of my Austin is a thing out here, and as it should be, because now that I've been here for 4 years, I'm also petitioning to keep people from coming here. I'm kidding. Come on.

Yes, yes, I know. I got to get the different phone number next. That's right.

It's a wild thing. It was 4 years ago this week that I was finishing my last week at the Walt Disney Company. 4 years ago a week from now, moving into the house that I now live in.

Wow.

It feels in some ways like it was 2 seconds ago, in other ways like it has been an absolute lifetime with every single thing that's happened. If anything though, anytime I get up on this kind of like anniversary, the milestone, it's a reminder of how fast things happen in life such that if you find yourself in a, in a, you know, a bit of a down moment, hopefully you can appreciate that the good can come Right around the corner. I find myself filled with hope, even though I don't have a perfect set of answers as to what next ends up looking like, really working against that reflex to run too fast too soon. And yet, because in some ways of this reminder of how much has happened in the last 2 years since divorce, in the last 4 years since getting here from California, my brain can't even contemplate what's going to happen in the next 2 or 4 years worth of time. And if anything in the rears is a sign, a lot's gonna happen.

So, mm-hmm. For sure. Tell everybody the best place to find you, because I know you're a little bit back on Instagram, a little bit, but I know they can sign up for your newsletter and get your weekly newsletter right there on your handle at Mr. Dave Hollis. But tell everybody where they can get this amazing book.

You are so sweet and kind. Uh, you can get that book where they sell books, as far as I know, like Amazon. I'm sure, uh, you can get toilet paper there, toothbrushes, and Built to Dur.

Quickest way is just Amazon, you get it the next day.

But wherever they sell books, you can grab the book. I'm still maintaining the time away from social. I did put up a post a couple of weeks back and I—

Those gorgeous long legs of yours.

It was just a shot of my legs, which feels weird, but like truly like taking a picture.

I thought it was perfect.

Thank you. I appreciate that. I felt I was missing community with my friends that have been on this stinking roller coaster with me for the last 4 years worth of time, 4 or 5 years worth of time. And And I found myself like really struggling to pick the right picture. And when I started, I was going to put a picture of me looking fit and a picture of me with my kids so I could make sure you knew I was a good dad and a picture of me with my grandma Lee, who's 100. And I realized that like the impulse for a lot of what I was trying to put up was to continue to curate a little bit of me doing better than I probably am. And I put up a post that basically said, I'm not putting up posts for a little bit longer. So if you want to connect with me, that's That would be rad. MrDaveHollis.com is a website I have. There's a landing page that gives you a chance for us to become one-way pen pals for a little bit of time anyway. I'm just gonna—

Yeah.

Stay connected to people. I actually made a blog so that I can do the thing that I love, which is some longer form storytelling with the written word in a world where I'm not using the captions of posts to, you know, keep people up to date on the ridiculous or the funny or the thought-provoking. I'm going to do it on a page that'll be on the site, and I'll give people updates through the email of when the latest and greatest or ridiculous or laughable is available. So sign up for my email if you want to, or don't. I will love you no matter what.

Yeah, I'm signed up, by the way.

Well, guess what? You're going to get the first blog entry ever in an email that theoretically is going to be sent out by me today if I actually get around to it.

So. Okay. Well, hey, I'll let you off so you can go get that blog because I'm anxious to read it. Thank you so much for just sharing honestly, vulnerably, courageously, all the things. I really enjoyed getting to meet you and sit and have lunch with you in Arizona. And I just appreciate you and all that you do. And you've inspired me. Like I told you, you inspired me to take a little break and slow down a little bit. And so thank you for that. And, um, I just appreciate you being on. Thank you, Dave.

So sweet. You're so, so sweet. Thank you. I appreciate it. Whoever needs to hear this today, you're doing just fine. If you're feeling like a mess, good news, you're in good company. I'm a mess too. Being human sucks sometimes. It's imperfect and bumpy and everything else, but we're all in this thing together. And hopefully this conversation, people like the two of us, make you feel a bit more normal for whatever it is that that you're facing in headwinds today, but you're going to get through it with a little grit and grace. I'm bringing the title of the stinking podcast back in. Oh, wow.

Look at you. Stay there.

Get out of here. We can't go anywhere from here. I love you. I appreciate you having me on.

Thank you. Thank y'all for tuning in.