Former Drug and Sex Addict Amy Dresner: Getting Dirty and Staying Clean

Welcome to True Grit and Grace, a podcast designed to empower you to claim your resilience and thrive through life's challenges. I am Amberly Lago, a mindset coach, fitness expert and bestselling author. Each week, I'll dive deep with the world's brightest thought leaders and elite performers to share tangible tools and practical advice to inspire you to keep your eyes on the prize and forge ahead. So get ready to conquer your fears, heal any trauma, lead with your heart, and elevate your life with grit and grace. Hey, welcome back to True Grit and Grace. I'm Amberly Lago, and I have a friend of mine on the show today who is a freaking badass. Amy Dresner is here with us. She's a journalist, bestselling author. Your bio says former comedian, but you are so hilarious. You're a comedian as well as a recovering addict and alcoholic. She's been a regular columnist for the addiction recovery magazine thefix.com since 2012, as well as contributed to Addiction.com, Psychology Today, Vice, and the list really goes on and on. And you have an amazing book. I actually have been listening to it on Audible. It's called My Fair Junkie: A Memoir of Getting Dirty and Staying Clean. She's had rave reviews. She just like, her sales skyrocketed again through this pandemic. And she's even been featured in Elle Magazine about her book. And Amy has appeared on The Doctors TV and on radio shows and on some of my favorite podcasts, including Dr. Drew and one of my favorites, Rich Roll. I have a crazy story about that too. Maybe we'll take that off air. But anyway, she does regular speaking engagements around the US, and she has her own podcast called— where she co-hosts Rehab Confidential Podcast. And her book, I am so excited about is currently in development for a TV series. So I feel so honored to have you here, Amy. Thank you, thank you, thank you for being here.

Thank you for having me.

I am just a huge fan of yours, and I think— I, I don't even remember how we met, but we met online, and then we have a mutual friend, Doug, who was actually a guest on the show, and then we recently talked on Clubhouse Right. And but I have read your articles. I chose your Audible book because I love your voice.

Everyone likes the Audible book. Everyone loves the Audible for some reason. They're just like, it's you. And it feels like, you know, you're my friend. And like, yeah, they love the Audible and they can hear my terrible accents and whatever.

But you know what? I mean, I felt you had me from the very beginning, right? When You open up with the tale of one of the hardest days of your life probably. And I don't want to tell your story. You tell it best. But could you please give just the listeners a little bit? Because this whole story or podcast is really about turning tragedy into triumphs and how you can turn some of the darkest days into, you know, your pain into purpose. And you really have a story of resilience. And we were talking before we started recording and I was like, oh wait, we got to save some of this. Because we were like talking. I'm like, we got to push record. But you truly have one of the most incredible overcoming stories I've ever heard. And I was like, Amy, you're such a miracle. You're such an inspiration. So really, truly, I really admire you. Thank you for being here. So if you could tell us a little bit about the day That with your ex that changed the rest of your life?

Well, propelled you. I had been struggling. I struggled with depression and sort of substance abuse for years. I'd been already in probably 5 rehabs. I would get periods of sobriety and relapse and periods of sobriety and relapse. I, you know, had, you know, had a big problem with crystal meth and alcohol and all this kind of stuff, and I also tried to kill myself a bunch of times. It just really was just didn't know how to function in life at all. I just wasn't really getting it. Just like felt really ill-equipped.

But can we say you grew up in a pretty nice home in Beverly Hills?

Yeah, I know. I absolutely did. Yeah. I mean, I grew up in Beverly Hills. And the reason I bring that up is because adversity doesn't discriminate. No, that's the whole thing. Everyone was like— so I grew up, my father was a screenwriter, my mother was like a model turned fashion designer and all that kind of stuff. They divorced when I was 2, but You know, the genetics. I had the genetics of alcoholism and mental illness, and I got it. You know, I can remember feeling weird at 9. You know what I mean? I can remember starting to have an eating disorder around 15 and getting— starting to have really, like, gnarly depression days around then. And by 19, I had my first nervous breakdown. Wow. And for me, drugs and alcohol were a way to kind of, like— they kept me on the planet sometimes when I just didn't want to even be here at all. And so it was a way to sort of turn down the volume on my feelings, which were just too big.

Well, I remember in one of your interviews that I listened to, and I'm not sure, I don't remember which one it was, but you said that when you discovered drugs, it was like, oh, you finally found it. Like this was it. The Prozac with wings is how you described it.

Totally. Yeah. It felt like I was like, this is what I need. This is what— why aren't the psychiatrists giving me this? This is, I feel normal for the first time in my life. This is what other people feel like.

And that's what I felt like when I started drinking to deal with the emotions and the pain that was too big. And I remember that was the exact, almost exact feeling, was I remember the drink, I thought, why didn't the doctors just tell me to do this? Like, here's my solution, right?

Yeah, like, this is what I need. You're just like, oh, I can breathe and I can be in my skin. I can be on the planet. I can deal. Like You know, it's just not. But of course, that gets really out of control really quickly. Um, you know, it just, it progressed. It's like, you know, shooting cocaine. And I mean, it got really, really gnarly.

Uh, how old were you when you started doing drugs?

24.

24. And you moved to the Bay Area, right?

Yeah, I moved to the Bay Area. And I was just like, I'd been kind of a good girl. I'd been sort of like a good Goody two shoes, gone to an all girls private uniform school, was really sort of like I'm pure and I'm a virgin and blah blah, you know. And sort of then I showed up in college and people were like ew. I thought it was cool. I was like I'm so pure. And that's sort of like alcoholism though in general. I think it's like we're such extremists. You know what I mean? We're either like smoking meth or we're like you know doing CrossFit and vegan. We can't seem to find that middle ground. Like you know what I mean? Like I was a sex addict and now I haven't had sex for like four years. So it's like I'm like where's the mom? Moderation. Like, is my vagina just gonna hermetically seal and like fall off at this point? Like, do I even need it? Like, what's going on? Like, I can't find that middle ground, you know? So, um, I mean, I had to quit vaping because I was like giving myself nicotine poisoning. I mean, I'm just really bad at like any kind of— at moderation.

Well, I read your article on giving up vaping and I was like—

Oh, well, that's one because I did it quite a few times. I did it during the pandemic.

I finally Yeah, I think it was— I think it was recently and how you gave up the vaping, and I was like, wow, it's, it's powerful because so many people that I know are like closet vapers.

Yeah, the vaping was harder than cigarettes. I mean, I loved it and I still miss it. I go, you know, I still— I like my— I like anything that changes my feelings.

Mm-hmm. So what's—

Instagram likes, a boy, fucking anything that changes my feelings, I'm all about it. A new shirt, yay! You know what I mean? Like, fucking—

I think that's very human to admit that because a lot of people don't want to admit that, but that is how we are as humans. That's where we get dopamine. Even actually, Doug and I were talking about yesterday about Clubhouse and Clubhouse Is a new kind of addiction. It's not just an addiction like a dopamine hit that, you know, you connect with people and you're heard and you're on this virtual stage, but it's also like this major FOMO of, oh, I don't want to miss out, they're pinging me in the room.

I haven't really gotten it. It hasn't gotten its claws in me, man.

Well, don't let it. I had to turn my notifications off.

It hasn't really caught—

I'm just kind of like, you know, But I want to take your story back to you, just about so people get an understanding of just the drastic change in you from going to private school, wearing a uniform. Because I so— my daughters both are in private school.

Becoming a crystal meth addict in San Francisco, living in Lower Haight when—

Like that.

Yeah. I mean, it was just— I was like, yay, I'm going to explore. Like, this is exciting. You know, I was 24. I was like, I'm gonna say yes to everything and like, yay. And then I just like, I— the second time I did crystal meth, it was over. And it was just like, it got— it just— a vacuum opened up and I was like, this is what I need. And it went down quick. It went downhill very, very quickly. And with—

I heard it's very addictive.

It's extraordinarily addictive if you like it. If you like uppers, it's like, you know, so I mean, I don't even know what the stuff's like now. This was 25 years ago. But for me— and then I found out that my mother had been addicted to amphetamines when she was a model, and I figured out— I found out that my uncle had been addicted to amphetamines. So I was like, well, no wonder. I was like genetically set up for this stuff, you know?

Mm-hmm.

So yeah, I mean, within 7 months I had a huge infection, my whole face had blown up, and my parents just grabbed me and dragged me back to LA, and thinking that, you know, in LA I'd be sober. But of course that's not the way it worked. You drop us anywhere and we'll find drugs. We'll find what we're looking for. We have a radar, like we were talking about. Like, you know, whether it's unavailable men or drugs or whatever it is, like you put me in a room in a city, I'm like, doot. Now I have a radar for sober people.

I do too.

Right? It's so weird. Yes.

You speak the same language. In fact, I just— the podcast episode that was just released this last week, I had a spiritual leader and he had gone for 2 years on a spiritual quest and studied from monks and shamans and learned all these different spiritual practices. And he didn't know I was sober. I newly met him through Clubhouse actually.

Right.

But he didn't know I was sober. And I guess I would— we were talking in the interview and he said, you know, Amberly, something that you said reminds me of the principles of Alcoholics Anonymous. And that's why it works so well. And I was just like, no. So afterwards I was like, oh, are you a friend of Bill's? And he's like, Who? And he's not sober, he's just studied.

Wow, interesting. Well, I mean, the 12 steps are based on all like the spiritual, all the different religions and all the different psychologies and stuff like that. It's not— he didn't, you know, make any of that up. It's all pulled from different religions and stuff.

Yeah. And he had just studied it and thought it was so wonderful. And I was like, yeah, but you do, you can start to. And that's why we were talking before we started recording about your picker. And I said, you've got a good picker.

It's just getting your picker on the right You're like, it's accurate, it's just aimed at the wrong person.

Yeah. So it's interesting that you went from being able to be like, ooh, that person, I know I can score something from them.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I went to the chiropractor and it was just like, I just fucking felt it. He was like, do you do breathwork? And I was like, are you sober? And he was like, yeah. I was like, well, either, you know, I mean, that's a good— that's kind of an obvious one because Only like people who are sober or like Burning Man people do breathwork. There's not really anyone else that does breathwork. So I got married because I didn't know how to take care of myself. I was 39 years old. I was tired of being like a fuck toy of people, of guys in the program. I don't know what to say. I really hadn't had many relationships and I was sort of promiscuous and I was looking for love in all the wrong places. Someone came along, loved me, and I was like, perfect. And he was gonna take care of me, and I was like, great. And it was a horrible marriage. And in the marriage, I relapsed, and I tried to kill myself a couple of times. And I also got something called frozen shoulder, and they gave me OxyContin.

Hmm.

And so, of course, you know, being a drug addict, it was over. You know, as soon as that stuff hit me and that veil went up between me and the world, I was just like, oh, I don't care. I don't care. I don't care what you think. I don't care what he thinks. I don't care what I think. Like, I don't care. We're just numb.

And, um— There is a veil that goes up between you and the world. Right?

And you feel safe. You feel safe in the world, right?

And it's all an illusion.

Of course it is.

You're, you're alone. And it's a veil that goes between you and your higher power. It's like you're completely cut off from everything and you're in this lonely, small little world.

In the beginning, it feels like a relief. And then it becomes like a prison.

Mm-hmm.

So on Christmas of 2011, we got in a fight and it became physical, and I was drunk and high, and I just grabbed a knife and I threatened him, and he called the cops on me, and I got arrested for felony domestic violence with a deadly weapon, and I went to jail.

But can I just say, like, this is, this is a crazy, crazy topic.

Do you have any single friends?

I've got somebody I'm thinking of right now. No, but no, but in your book, the part where you describe it so vividly about everything from the, the moment that you realize, oh crap, I'm going to jail, like the things that you were doing, and then the thought process that you have when you know you have screwed up and you are either drunk or high. And I wasn't— I, I never did drugs. I was more Alcohol was my solution. But the, the thought process that you had is still so similar when I had done things that I knew I screwed up, but oh, better get a last drink before it gets bad.

I was like, oh, the cops are coming, I better be really fucking high and relaxed before, you know, it was like, yeah.

So, um, and I'm laughing at how you described it in your book though, because you were like talking yourself through it like, I don't, um, the, the, this is gnarly and I don't feel relaxed.

And like, oh, I'm such an asshole. I was really an ass. I mean, I was so— I was just— drugs and alcohol never— like, what it felt like and what it looked like are never the same thing. So, like, I felt really like I'm having fun and I'm relaxed and blah, blah. But, like, everyone else was like, you're a fucking nightmare, Amy. And it's like, I'm violent and I'm sexual and I'm a dick. And it's like— but inside I'm like, I'm having fun. And everyone's like, oh my God. And even with the cops, they were, like, reading me my rights. And I was like, I— save your breath. You know, like, Law and Order is my favorite show. Like, I mean, just such an asshole, you know? It's like, so, oh God. And then me trying to talk my way out of it in the car, just being like, you know, just the— I just, you know, oh, your eyes just really go well with your uniform. And like, yeah.

Amy, I don't know if you realize this, but I'm married to a cop.

Oh my God.

So can you imagine?

Yeah, no, hiding it.

Like, I was trying to hide it.

I'm terrified of cops now.

Are you?

Yeah.

Oh God, there's so many cops in our family, and me being married to one arrested that after being arrested by sheriffs, I've never yeah four sheriffs four. That's how much that's how powerful you are, girl.

I know four men all hundred fifteen pounds of me. They came and they were like, "Oh, we've come here for her before. She's not going to psych ward this time. She's going to jail." And I was like, "Oh." Fuck, man. So, um, I got out and I lost everything. I mean, he left me penniless in a psych ward and he was just like, I can't—

How long were you in the psych ward?

Which time?

Yeah, when you get— when this time— whoa, well, this time you went to jail.

I went to jail. I was out within 5 hours.

You were out within 5 hours?

Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, even load— I was in a blackout in jail. I'd taken so many drugs, I was in— I don't— I was in a blackout. But I had an old sponsee who'd become a bail bondswoman. And I was like, fucking yeah.

Well, I remember there was a part in your book that you— there was like this— you realized, you looked at the payphone and you were like, who are my true friends?

Like, who do I call? Totally true.

Yeah.

When you're in a fucking— you're in a cell and you have a payphone and you're like, okay, like you get— you get like 2 or 3 phone calls and you're like, okay, like, Who are my real friends that are gonna fucking show up and bail me out? You know what I mean? Like, I'm about to find out. But I remembered I had a bail bondswoman. One of my ex-sponsees had become a bail bondswoman. And I was like, I'm gonna call her, you know? So fucking— and she was like, oh my God, Amy, like my old sponsor. So good to hear from you. Merry Christmas. And I was like, hi, like, I'm in jail. She was like, oh. So she got me out. Um, but just, it was the beginning of just a rapid unraveling of drinking and suicide attempts and trying to get sober and rehabs and sober livings. And it was just horrible. And I finally ended up in a sober living and I was given 240 hours of community labor and a year of domestic violence counseling. And it's really kind of the community labor that sort of changed my life. It was like this Jewish American princess and very entitled and, you know, really hadn't supported myself, had had a trust fund and then had a husband taking care of me. And then all of a sudden I'm dropped. I mean, I think that you meet your destiny on the road you go to avoid it. So it's like, I was like, I don't want to take care of myself. And the universe was like, oh, you don't want to take care of yourself? Okay, here you go. Here you are with nothing, honey, in your 40s. with nothing, no net, everyone's over your shit, you've got no money, knock yourself out. You got a criminal record, go. And I was like, oh, fuck. And I remember the first day showing up on the chain gang. And I was like, you know, first I was just like, I don't belong here. Like, these are criminals like this. And, you know, and I was terrified. So whenever I'm terrified, I put up this bravado of like, which is still something I do. And it was like me and 40 Hispanic guys. And I was like, and it was, I was just like, oh fuck, you know? And I was like, hi. And no one's like, you know, no, I mean, just like they all had their hoodies and they were just like, whatever, you know? And then someone came up to me and they're like, what you here for? What you here for, wedda? I'm here for DUI. What you here for? And I was like, oh, I'm here for felony domestic violence with a deadly weapon. They were like, oh shit, you know? So then I was like, they were like, oh, she's the crazy white bitch. Who tried to stab her fucking husband? Like nobody fucked with me, but I was like the only girl. So wow!

They're like you don't want to mess with that.

Yeah, they were like she's bananas. She tried to kill everyone else was there for like a DUI.

She was like yeah.

So I would just swept the streets and like painted over graffiti, and it was like me and like a bunch of guys, and we would eat churros and fucking like you know it was just like. I realized I was like, oh, I'm the criminal. Like the whole thing flipped. And for me, it was, you know, after a couple days of feeling sorry for myself and being like, my ex sucks and my lawyer sucked and this isn't fair and, you know, blah, blah. And I mean, literally, we were sweeping like human feces and like cigarette butts and like, you know, in the hot sun for like 8 hours. I mean, it was really gnarly. And no one would talk to us. Everyone knew we were criminals. So people would just like pass by us and wouldn't talk to us. Except for like people who thought we were doing like environmental stuff. They were like, "I love what you're doing. This environmental work is so great. Like how do I become part of this?" You're like, "You don't want to know." Yeah, you try and stab someone. It's really easy. And I had this epiphany where I was just like, you know, Amy, this could be the best thing that ever happened to you, or it could be the worst thing that ever happened to you. You know, and it's your decision. Like you're 42 fucking years old. This is what's happened. You've been a Up your whole life. You know what I mean? Here we're at a crossroads. Could this possibly be the worst thing that ever— the best thing that ever happened to you dressed up as your nightmare? And I was like, okay. And I had to finish or I was gonna go to jail. So I was like, okay, are there lessons here? Let's embrace this. We have to finish. We have to make this doable. We have to make this fun. You know what I mean? Or productive or something. And I was like, yeah, I can learn teamwork. I can learn a work ethic. I can finish what I start. I can, you know, learn how to sweep really well. I can just get humble. I mean, I was like, there are a lot of lessons here, Amy. Why don't you just embrace that shit?

Wow. And, and, you know, you embracing that through that hard time, it made you better instead of bitter. Because you're right, going through a crappy situation, it does either one of the things. It makes you bitter or it makes you better.

And you were like Yeah.

It's all not even really your circumstances, but how you show, you know, how you choose to look at them.

Exactly.

How you frame it in your head.

Yeah.

Yeah. How you frame it. And that's another reason that I love how you have really, you're getting your voice out there and changing the stigma around addiction.

Thank you.

And reframing that for a lot of people. And when I say you're a miracle, I mean, you know, my baby brother got on drugs and alcohol and was doing meth and was— he's on death row now. So it's just so crazy. So when I heard your story, I was like, we need more people like you. And you say something, you say shine the light on shame, because I think that's the reason.

I became a sex addict in this early sobriety. I have 8 years now. I have epilepsy from crystal meth. Like, I didn't come out unscathed. Like, I have my teeth, but I fried my brain. But it's LA, so who cares, right? I know.

Yeah, but your teeth look good.

Right? I know, right? It's like, who cares if I have to wear a helmet for the rest of my life? I just really, you know, after the whole thing happened, I started writing and babysitting, and I was just starting over from scratch. And I just decided I wanted to talk about all the things that no one talks about. I wanted to talk about being a perpetrator of domestic violence. I wanted to talk about being a female sex addict. I wanted to talk about being a female drug addict that comes from upper middle class and money and blah, that that shouldn't happen to me and blah blah, you know, and being an IV drug addict and being mentally ill. And I was like, and I want to talk about it and I want to just wipe the shame because shame never helped me. You talked about dopamine. Shame lowers your dopamine. Okay. So when you feel ashamed, you shame yourself or someone else shames you, you actually lower your own dopamine tone, which sets you up to relapse or act out in some way. Candy, attention, Clubhouse, buying something, fucking somebody. You know what I mean? One of the reasons that 12-step works is because when— or any kind of— or church or anything, knitting club, it doesn't fucking matter. When you connect with other people, your dopamine rises. And especially when you connect with other people like yourselves, within you don't feel less than. Your dopamine rises, and when you help other people, dopamine rises. You know what I mean?

So there's oh my goodness!

Yeah, and for so long, chemical there's so much chemistry to all of this. And like I also just found out too about a genetic mutation called the MTHFR mutation, which I got tested for.

I have heard of that.

Okay, so there is a genetic mutation that many addicts have called MTHFR mutation, which people call the motherfucker.

I just had a friend of mine, actually, she saw— she didn't know I was sober, and she saw, because I don't talk about it all the time on Instagram or anything like that, but occasionally I do mention it. And she didn't know I was sober, and she reached out to me because she was struggling. And she's the one who told me about that gene. I had never heard of it. She's— and she got tested positive for it.

Yeah, so did I. So I'm testopod— so basically what it means is you have a genetic mutation in making the enzyme that breaks down sort of folic acid from green vegetables into L-methylfolate, which is the building block for dopamine and serotonin. So I don't know about you, but I always felt like I didn't have enough dopamine. I just always, from a very young age, I just felt like depleted, like I wasn't where other people— I wasn't starting where other people were starting. That's low dopamine tone.

So, you know what, that's interesting. I want to get checked for that because even from a very young age, I had to do things to get my levels up. For me, that meant running and dancing, and then I felt normal or good.

Interesting.

And so it was when everything fell apart is when I was stuck in the hospital bed and I couldn't do either, either of those things. And it was like, oh, Yeah. It's interesting that, that I didn't realize that.

Yeah. So I take a supplement called an L-methylfolate supplement, you know, and it helps, but does there, you know, there's not one cure-all. For me, it is looking, it's all of it. It's trauma work and it's exercise and it's meditation and it's connection. And it's doing all these different pieces that you do. And everyone's thing is unique. You know, I've been sober ever since I had to sweep the streets. And I mean, it was the best thing that ever happened to me, which is so ironic because when it happened, I was like, oh my God, kill me. You know, I got dropped to a misdemeanor. It's been— the charge has been dismissed. I think they're still on my record. I should get my—

I think after 7 years, isn't it? After 7 years.

I'd like to go to Canada sometime. I don't know that they want me. I guess what I really— everything I judged, I became, number one. Number 2, everything—

Isn't that interesting? Right?

For real. I mean, I had been, drugs are bad. Cut to my friends are just like, whatever, Amy. Cut to like, I'm shooting up in my neck. You know what I mean? And I also found that everything that I thought would never happen to someone like me happened to me. Psych wards, jail, all of it. And it was like, it, for me, it created an enormous compassion. for other people and just like, don't you dare judge anyone else. You could be there under the right or wrong circumstances. You could absolutely be that person on the street talking to themselves. You don't fucking know. Do you know what I mean? You could be that person who, you know, it's like, I just— genetics and environment, they create so much. We have so less sort of, I think, power over things than we think. I think so much of this stuff is like automatic, you know? And so—

And it's a slippery slope because it took me down so fast.

Oh God, yeah.

But I knew my brother was already in jail. I was like, I'm either gonna die or I'm gonna be in jail. I'm gonna be on the street. This is not good. I want more out of life than this. And this is what I thought. I remember thinking, How did a good girl like me end up like this? How did this happen? I was never a partier. I was always the one who was not going to be the addict in the family. I was not going to be the alcoholic.

Me too. Me too. Yes, too. That's what's so interesting. People are like, well, you know, I'm not one of those people who was like smoking pot at 10.

Mm-hmm.

You know what I mean? I smoked pot for the first time at 22 years old. I did meth at 24, and then it was on, and it was a nightmare for 17 years.

See, it's crazy because I loved adrenaline, and I loved being up and going fast. Because you're a risk-taker.

Because that's addiction. That's the alcoholism.

Risk-taking. Yeah. I never did any coke or wanted to try any meth or anything like that because it scared the crap out of me.

Well, because you probably knew you were gonna like it too much.

I was like, I think I might like that and I don't want to take that chance. So I had a healthy fear in that. And yeah.

You probably would have liked it. And it is gnarly. You know, addiction's gnarly. And it's just like—

Well, I feel like it stole my baby brother. He wasn't— I remember the last time I saw him before he went to prison. Texas does not screw around, man. They're like, they don't screw around. And I remember just seeing him and kind of like, where's my baby brother? Now this is before I became an alcoholic. And I remember thinking, what happened to my sweet baby brother? He was like, he was a comedian, had the biggest beautiful heart. And I was like, he's gone. Where is he? And so I need to write him a letter. That just reminds me. It's just crazy what addiction does. And How it doesn't discriminate. It doesn't matter what kind of family you came from. It doesn't matter what race you are, what gender you are. Doesn't matter. It will— it can get to anybody. And so that's why I'm so grateful that you're speaking.

Yeah, I think that what really bothers me about the stigma is not just because it doesn't discriminate, but because people can't see it. You can't see it on a brain, but you can see it on a brain scan. It's sort of brain scans like But, but because it's not, you know, like you can't see it on an x-ray, people think it's a thing of morality or willpower. And I'm here to tell you that it's not. I mean, you know, there is scientific proof that once you are in the depths of your addiction, your prefrontal cortex completely is shut down. And you're—

I've never experienced anything like it.

No, it's horrible. It's like where you're like, I don't want to do this, and you're doing it anyway, where you have like no control over your own body, it is like being possessed. That's all I can describe it as, where you're just like, I don't want to do this. And you're watching yourself from outside do it because it's hijacked your brain. And basically your brain is like, this is survival. It's really weird. We had a guy on the podcast called Daniel Lieberman and he wrote The Molecule of More, which is all about dopamine. You should read the book. It's fascinating. You should have him on. He's amazing. And—

The Molecule of More.

The Molecule of More. And he talks about dopamine and he talks about sex addiction and love addiction and gaming addiction and social media addiction and drugs and alcohol and how like in the beginning when you're like really into someone, why that dies out like 2 years in because the dopamine and all the like, ooh, wears off and then it becomes sort of like companionate love. And so many people don't— they go, oh, I fell out of love with them. It's over. It's like, no, that's a state of being high. Off of the— off your brain chemicals, you know what I mean? It's really fascinating, and, um, I just think that we need to just talk about it. And I just— shame, for me, was— shame never helped me get sober, ever. It didn't change my behavior. And what I have found is that the more I speak my truth, no matter how ugly it is, the more people identify. They're just like, oh my God, thank you for saying that. I feel so much less alone. And I don't— that to me is That's my fucking job here is to be the truth teller and say the thing that everyone's thinking that no one dares say. You know what I mean? And it's like, and make people feel less alone and give people hope. Like, I was a drug addict and an alcoholic, you know, and a cutter. And I mean, really, really, it was bad. From— I got sober, I have 8 years, I'm 51, you know, at 42, 43, and I started my journey at 25. It was the first time I was in rehab.

Wow.

And I think that what you talk about, like, I love that it's called Grit and Grace because, you know, I called one of my therapists from rehab. Didn't look like I was the person who was gonna make it. I had a bad attitude. I had— I was older. I was having a complete nervous breakdown.

I'm just laughing right now because I had people placing bets on me that I wasn't gonna make it.

Yeah, they were like, that bitch is gonna die. Like, she's an asshole and she's been relapsing for 20 years. Like, she is not gonna make it. And I called her and I just said, I wanted to tell you thank you and sorry I was such a dick, you know, like, that I just got 8 years. And she just was like, oh my God, you just don't know who's gonna make it. And like, I think that what you're talking about, for me, I think it's about resilience. That's it. It's like, you just don't let anything stop you. You just keep getting back up. And you go, no, no. You dust yourself off and you start again. And you don't let any— what anyone think about you stop you. And you fucking, you know, who cares what people in AA think? Like, they're like, oh, she's just relapsed. Fuck you. I don't want to be queen of the fucking loadies. I don't give a shit. Do you know what I mean? Like, I'm here to save my life. Like, you know, I just kept— literally, when everything got pulled out from under me, I was just like, it was sink or swim. And I just was like, okay, bitch. Let's see what you got. And—

And that's powerful. Yeah, it's resilience. Resilient people know when it's time to sink or swim. And you're like, okay, I'm swimming.

You gotta find that within yourself. You know, there's a line in the book which I just love, which I said to my father when I had 3 years sober for the whateverth time, you know what I mean? My poor parents are just like, oh God, you know, does she got it? She got it. She's sober. Sober a couple years. Okay, cool, cool. Oh no, she just ate it again, you know. And it kept getting worse and worse. And I said, are you ashamed of me? When you talk to your friends, are you embarrassed you've had a kid that's been in the psych ward and rehabs and tried to stab their ex? And like, are you embarrassed? And he said to me, my friends wish they had a kid as unbreakable as you.

I'm crying.

But that's what I want everyone to know. We're all unbreakable. You're unbreakable. I'm unbreakable. We're resilient, man.

Yeah.

We think we're broken. That's the whole thing. Our head is like, you're so broken. You're so fucked up. We are resilient. Look what you've done. Look what you've done.

Well, if there's anybody listening who's like, oh, but it's too late for me, I'm old, or I'm just not as resilient, or all that, let me tell you, I didn't start— I mean, gosh, I'm gonna be 49 next month, and my sobriety birthday is 5 years next month as well. I got sober like 3 days But it's not a competition.

Who gives a shit?

But it's not, and it's not— it's not too late.

Never.

And that's the opening of my book.

For anyone— this is for anyone who thinks it's too late. Because I thought it was too late. I didn't believe in myself. I'd relapsed for so long. I was like, I'm gonna die an addict. I'm gonna die this way. And then, you know, I just found something in myself, and I went, you know, move, bitch. Let's do this. You know, and I just didn't stop, and I just kept clawing through and clawing through and clawing through. And I didn't do it perfectly. And you can cry and be resilient. I'm the biggest crybaby ever.

Oh, I did not cry for years. And then when I got sober, it was like the floodgates.

Ah, your feelings found you. Your feelings found you.

Like all the feelings that I ran away from, right, earlier. And then all the feelings that I— then I was like, oh, these feelings are too big. The shame's too big. The, the— it was just all too much. Let me stuff it down. It was like all the feelings I ran from and then tried to numb out and stuff down, they all— and the thing is, is, is really you have to feel those feels in order to heal. And it's not easy.

No, it's not.

And, and I used to have this friend when I was growing up.

Very unpleasant. It's very unpleasant. But that's the whole thing. We think our feelings are going to kill us. They're not going to kill you. They don't feel great. We don't like not feeling great. We like feeling good, you know? And it's like, you know, what you realize is that your feelings won't kill you and that they will pass.

They will pass. This too shall pass. Yeah.

But that's the whole thing is that everything passes. Good stuff passes. Bad stuff passes. It all passes. Everything is transient, which is so hard. I don't like that because I feel unstable inside. So I want stability. I don't like the ambiguity of like, what's gonna happen? That's not exciting to me. That's like terrifying. You know what I mean? Like, I want to know.

Mm-hmm.

I'll end a relationship just so I know. You know what I mean? I want to know. I don't want to like, you know, I don't like, oh, maybe. Like, I don't like that, you know? But tolerating ambiguity, that's life, man. We got to live that way. How do you find the solidity inside of yourself? How do you create that, that solidity And that sort of centeredness within yourself, because life is going to go like this, you know. Even in sobriety, everyone's like, sobriety, it's like rainbows and sparkles. It's like, that's not been my experience. My mom—

I was on a pink cloud for a little while.

Oh, I never had a pink nothing.

You didn't? I was on a pink cloud for a little while, and I think I was just happy to be alive and happy to have found some meetings with women. And I remember this one girl in the meeting one time said, You're so cute. You have your little pink cloud, don't you? And I was like, thanks. Yep, I like this pink cloud. Do you?

I was like, yeah, whatever.

I didn't even know what that meant. I didn't know what pink cloud meant. I, I had no idea. And you know what? I think sometimes ignorance is bliss. I did not know, like, that there were cliquey groups.

Yeah, that sounds— that's kind of catty and shitty.

I was in there for one reason. And that was to save my life, to keep my sobriety and save my life. And I didn't care about anything else. I didn't care.

Good. That's the way it should be.

I didn't care. I didn't. And I remember, you know, um, anyway, there's, there's a lot. I was just like, I am here for one reason only. And it's been hard during the pandemic. Thank God we have—

Very, very hard.

Online.

It's not the same, though.

But it's not the same.

You know, it's not the same.

It's not. Like you said, you get that dopamine when you're in a room. Well, yeah, when you're in a room full of people that you love and—

Yeah, I mean, hugging and connecting and holding hands and like the whole— I mean, like, you know, I mean, I told— it's a joke, but I mean, this— I mean, it's not even a joke. I said this has really happened. I was going to the chiropractor and she said, you have to stop coming so often. And I said, but I'm lonely. I need to be touched and I'm looking for answers. And she's like, you really need to stop coming to the chiropractor so often. Really? And it was like—

Well, how often were you going?

I don't know. I didn't think I was going that often. She was like, you were here 4 days ago. Like, what are you doing? And I was like, well, I'm sorry. Like, you know, I mean—

That's hilarious though.

I know. It's like, it's so embarrassing.

But no, it's not. I mean, it makes sense.

Well, yeah, I live by myself. It's like me and my cat. I mean, like, I'm, you know, it's like, so I feel like isolation is very bad for us.

Yeah.

And, you know, suicide has gone up 200%. Relapses have gone up. I mean, everyone I know— I've really struggled with depression during this a lot. It's not been fun at all. And, you know, you think you're like, oh, you know, and then there's all this like pressure to like, you know, I'm gonna write a book and get a fucking perfect body during the pandemic. You know what I mean? Like, I get these goals or whatever, and it's like, how about you just get through and not blow your brains out? That would be great. And not get sick. Like, that's my goal.

Mm-hmm.

You know? It's that simple. But I mean, I guess what I was saying was like, I think that people have this idea that you get sober and like life's perfect and it's easy. And it's like, that's just when the work starts. My mom got dementia. My dad got cancer. I got my heart broken. Like, life continues, honey. You've got better tools now. But you also got to feel all your feelings.

Yeah. Like you don't have any vices. You can't, you know, other people might like have a hard day and they're like, ah, I just want to check out.

Right.

You know, gonna happen. And in fact, I was actually just recently invited to speak at this group and it was called like Confidence and Cocktails. And they're like, okay, we're gonna go around the room. And, uh, Amberly, what are you drinking? And I'm like, well, I'm sober, so I'm drinking some water. But before, I never would have been able to say that. I would have been terrified and so ashamed to say, well, because they were going around, they were all saying, I'm drinking gin and tonic, I'm drinking a margarita, I'm drinking wine. And I'm like, I'm drinking water. And I would have been ashamed of that because it took me, gosh, probably A good year before I even told anybody that I was sober. I mean, of course, people, my closest friends and family, they're like, oh, we see the change. I mean, people would see me and go, oh, what are you doing? You look great. New diet?

Your skin's so glowy.

They're like, wow, did you not— did you lose weight? And I'm like, no, I'm just not puffy from—

I don't know.

But it's not easy. It is where, you know, you have to feel all the feelings, but we can get through some of the hardest days.

Yes.

And I am so grateful. Like, every morning I actually write to my sponsor and tell her what I'm grateful for. And this morning, one of the things that I told her that I was grateful for was that I got to go work out at 5:30 this morning before I started work. And that I'm able to do that because I would have been hungover before, you know. I mean, I'm just grateful that I can get control of my health even though I don't have perfect health. I can better manage my chronic nerve disease and be healthier by staying sober. So yes, there are days that are harder, but in a lot of ways, I mean, it's so much easier and I wouldn't trade it for the world.

Oh, wow.

I always say the number one thing I'm grateful for is my Because without it, I wouldn't have anything else.

Oh, completely. I completely— but I'm just saying, I mean, it's become so trendy and people think it's easy. And I think in the beginning, the first year is very difficult.

Is it trendy now?

Oh God, yeah.

Is it?

Oh, it's so trendy. Oh God, yeah.

Oh wow. Thanks to you. Maybe they read your book and they're like— No, no, no.

Oh, it's not me. No. My book— believe me, that's not me. It's like the wine moms. It's not me. People aren't like, I identify with this Jewish junkie. Like, no, it's like this knife-wielding bitch who— that's not— people are like, whoa. They read my book and they're like, oh, I thought I was bad. Like, well, if this bitch can get sober, okay, maybe, you know.

See, I read your book and I'm like, I relate to her.

Well, I mean, underneath it all is the feelings, and the feelings are the same. The feelings of insecurity, the feelings of wanting love, the feelings of being lonely, the feelings of all of it. What am I doing with my life? The feelings of, you know, being out of control, the feelings of all fear, all of it, every sadness. Sadness, grief, we all have those, you know. So it's like, I mean, but for me—

So how are you getting through the sadness? How, how, what helps you with that?

Sadness about what specifically?

Well, you said that just through this pandemic, how you've had some days where you're like, God, this depression is really like something else.

Yeah, well, I also have a mood disorder, you know, and epilepsy, so that's not great. But I mean, um, I—

Yeah, so first your sadness, and then I know you're Epilepsy is also— can sometimes be brought on too when you get stressed.

So yeah, I mean, I have that pretty well under control with medications now. Thank God. Finally, after cracking my head open and breaking teeth and losing my license twice and, you know, all kinds of fun stuff. I have days where I just am like, today's a bed day. I can't, you know what I mean? And I just let myself— I don't beat myself up about it. And there are other days where I'm like, let's move, bitch. Like, get in the shower, get out of those sweatpants, you know, call Doug, let's do some lunges, you know, get out in some fresh air, call somebody. How you doing? Just, you know, moving, writing, whatever. I mean, I'm someone who really struggles with routine and discipline, and I need it. And my father said, you know, discipline creates stability, stability doesn't create discipline. And I was like, I don't know what that— what does that even mean? You know, it means that like a disciplined routine life will give you that feeling of stability inside that you're looking for versus you waiting to feel like you want to write the fucking book because you're never going to fucking feel like that or work out or whatever it's going to be. And so—

Oh, I need discipline. I really have to have the discipline or I am all over the place. I feel like an emotional Roller coaster. I think discipline gives us freedom.

It does. It totally does. But it's not always easy. And so sometimes I have to, like, literally bookend it. Like, promise someone I'm gonna do it and then text them and say I did it. You know what I mean? I've got to be held accountable. You know, people go, well, aren't you accountable to yourself? It's like, oh, girl, I've broken promises to myself so many times. I wish I could just do that for myself. I wish I had that kind of self-care. And I don't. Sometimes I'm really on it. Like, that's the addiction part. Like, sometimes I'm like, I'm working out every day and I'm meditating every day and I'm writing every day and I'm like really on it. And there's other days where I'm just like, you know, and that's the truth. I mean, I don't do it perfectly, but thankfully I can start over. I can go, okay, you're really slacking. Let's get back on the horse.

And thank God we don't have to do it perfectly.

Yeah.

You know, I mean, thank goodness.

I don't like that about Instagram where everyone put like, puts the perfection and makes it look like it's easy because being sober is not easy. And so if you're depressed when you're in early sobriety during a goddamn pandemic, like nothing is wrong with you. It's hard. This is depressing. People are dying. It is terrifying. It's isolating. People are lonely. Like it's hard. You know what I mean? I don't like the idea that it's like some fucking cure-all and you still might have to deal with your trauma. Or PTSD, or your childhood stuff, or your chemical imbalance. You know what I mean?

More than likely, you will have to deal with it because you've been covering up all that stuff with all these other things you've been doing to not have to deal with those things.

Yeah, it's just the beginning. It really is just the beginning of doing the work. You know, I mean, all I did was run from the work. For me, the wake-up calls were getting louder and louder and louder, and I was like, uh uh uh uh uh. And then. Just my life just imploded. I mean, left penniless in a psych ward. And my parents were just kind of like, you know, my ex-husband was like, done. And—

How long were you married?

3 and a half years.

3 and a half years.

And my parents were just like, my father was just like, God, man, I'm so— you've been draining me financially and emotionally for years, man. Like, you at the bottom of the well. Like, when does this end?

Well, I think sometimes, you know, we need That tough love.

Oh, totally. Are you kidding? Absolutely. I mean, I was so manipulative, and it kept me going for a really long time. And I played the broken card and the sick card and the crazy card and the junkie card, and I just kept manipulating my parents. Well, if you don't do that, I'm gonna kill myself. I need to get— I'm gonna get loaded if you don't do that. And then my dad went to one goddamn Al-Anon meeting. One. That's all it took. And I called him up and I tried to manipulate him. And he goes, you know what, Amy? You used to be able to ruin my life. And now you can't even ruin my lunch, honey.

Wow.

And I was like, and I knew the gig was up. I was like, fuck. You know what I mean? Like, I had gotten smart to my game. And it was like, but it was also me hitting a bottom and wanting to change. Like, when I was sweeping the streets, I was like, I don't wanna do this anymore. Like, I'm tired of relapsing. I'm tired of, like feeling like life is after me and I'm caught in some weird trap I can't get out of. And in recovery, there's freedom. And then when you get to see that you're the person that is creating those, those cycles, then you get to— then there's freedom. You're like, if I stop doing all this stuff, this stuff stops happening to me. Hey, what a coincidence.

Mm-hmm.

It's you. Wherever you go, there you are, bitch. You know what I mean?

It's so true, right? The same thing keeps happening, right? Even if you— I remember I was like, gosh, I keep, you know, I got married to this guy, then I thought I picked somebody different, then I thought I picked somebody different, and they were all like the same unemotionally available person. And I thought, it's me, I'm picking the wrong person. What do I need to fix in me?

Totally.

And I went to a shrink after I had my second daughter, and I had like really bad postpartum depression. And thank goodness my husband was like, you need to go get help because, or else, like I can't deal with you. You're a crazy person. Like you need to go to a shrink right now.

Whoa.

And so I went and I was talking to her. And 2 things she said to me were, well, one thing she said to me was really good. She said, You teach people how to treat you, which was like, oh.

Oh, so true, right?

I know what you're talking about. It's so true.

Oh, I know.

Ooh.

That one hurts, doesn't it?

Yes, it did. It was like, ooh. It stopped me. I was like, oh, shut me right up. But then she said, I told her, I said, well, I know I'll just feel better. And this is what makes me think of our conver— what we said earlier about the dopamine. I said, I know I'll just feel better if I can move my body, if I can work out. I said, and I had this cesarean and I have not been able to move and I'm just depressed and I'm going crazy. I need to be able to move to feel good. And she said, well, you need to be on antidepressants. If you depend on exercise to feel better, you need to be on antidepressants. So I left there with a prescription for antidepressants and I cried all the way home. And I told my husband, you were right. She said I'm crazy and I'm supposed to take this medication. He goes, Well, no, you don't have to take the medication if you don't want to take it. Just wait till you can work out and see if that helps. And so sure enough, I waited. I had this thing about I didn't want to have to take any antidepressants.

No problem.

Um, but I mean, later on in life after my motorcycle accident, I tried 3 different kinds of antidepressants. But at this time I skipped it.

You were like, I don't Yeah, I don't want to. I know, we're like, wait a second, what are you offering? Like, no, I don't do drugs. I know, it's like, it's so weird. My body's so weird. Like, I used to do meth, right? Meth is cut with Drano and gun bluing. No problem. They put me on doxycycline, I went bananas. Right? Like street drugs, my body's like, yeah, totally. Other drugs, my body's like, no.

Well, do you think, like, I know for me with the 34 surgeries and at one time I was on 11 different prescription medications at one time just in order to keep my leg from falling off of my body. And I started developing a lot of allergies to medications. So I think that's one of the reasons I couldn't take, I mean, I would throw up any kind of antidepressant I tried to take. I became like, I was alert, I'm allergic to, uh, different pain medications. And I think it's probably because I had so many of them for a couple of years with so many surgeries and everything. So yeah, I have to be really careful with even antibiotics too.

And I don't know if it's— Antibiotics totally fucked me up. I mean, they put me on one and I was like manic. And I'm not even bipolar. Like for 10 days, I was having a great time. I was like, woo! You know, I was so fucking hyper and I'm like buying necklaces. I'm like, you know, That's when I contacted my ex and I was like, you got something to say to me? You know, it was like, surprise, after like 4 years of being blocked. And he was like, oh my God. My friends are like, are you drinking too much coffee? Like, what's going on? And then after that, it didn't work. It was for an ear infection. They put me on a different one and all it did was give me diarrhea and cry. I was like, oh, this is awesome. I would rather the other one. Yeah, I was like, I'm just literally like, how, you know, I'd gone from like, woo! To like, I'm on the toilet. And everyone's just like, oh my God, girl, like, get it together. Hey, I'm on, I'm on Prozac and I'm on medication for my epilepsy and I'm on progesterone now because I'm going through perimenopause, which is such a blast, let me tell you.

Oh, I haven't got there yet.

Oh, it's so fun. Oh, it's really fun. You thought you were crazy before? Well, wait till you get— yeah, wait till you sweat at night and like cry and like rage on people. Yeah.

Oh, my poor husband.

Yeah, it was gnarly. I was like, oh my God.

See, I don't know when to expect it because both my grandmother and my mom, you know, had hysterectomies very young.

My mom too. So I had no idea either.

Yeah, so I'm I might be. I'll be calling you up, girl.

I'll be like, I'll walk you through it. I'll walk you through it.

Swear to God, I'll be like, Amy.

I know. I was like, this is the store is closing. What is not fun at all, man? It through your head a little bit too. You know, you're kind of like, you know. But I mean, I never had babies. But you know, they found that you know for some people exercise is just as effective as you know antidepressants. So it's like. And antidepressants don't work for everybody. You know, I have to do it all. I have to take antidepressants and I have to work out and I have to meditate. Even my dad said to me today, he goes, I can tell you're not meditating. And I was like, I do not like your attitude, sir. I don't like that.

But it is. I mean, I, I have to do— I have a morning ritual and I have a nightly ritual. And some Sometimes I need to restart in the middle of my day, so, and I need great friends and support along the way. I definitely could not do it alone.

Oh yeah, for sure that. Oh God, that you can tell the truth to and just be like, I'm not okay. Like, yeah, I need help. Like, can you listen? You know, yeah, help me. I don't know what's going on. And then just people who just don't judge you and just love you.

Well, you can call me anytime, girl. Oh honey, I'm serious. By the way, y'all, I want you to read her book because we just touched on like a tiny portion of it. I usually like to, to read paperbacks or hardbacks because I, I'm a big highlighter and, you know, page folder over. But I really— because I've met you and I talked to you, I wanted to hear your voice. I wanted to hear you read it. So I love the Audible version. Tell people the best way to get your book and to find you.

Uh, best way to get the book, I would guess, really is Amazon. I mean, I know whatever your feelings about Jeff Bezos and Amazon, you know, people like, like, it's been, you know, it was released originally in 2017. And I'm working on book 2 now, which people are very happy about. But yeah, that's where the Kindle is. That's where the Audible is. That's where there's paperbacks and hardcovers there. You can find them also Barnes Noble. I'm on Instagram at Amy Dresner. I'm on Twitter at Amy Dresner. I'm on Facebook at Amy Dresner. I have a podcast called Rehab Confidential with someone even more obnoxious than me, if you can believe it, named Joe Schrank. That's on Apple and Spotify. I mean, he says people are like, if you're the pullback police, that's scary. I'm like, I know, I know. He makes me look great. I'm like, okay. You say stuff and I'm like, really?

Well, just keeping it real.

Like, yeah, people are like, you're really raw. I'm like, uh, well, listen to my podcast where I'm the one who's like, oh my God.

Well, I just subscribed to your podcast today and it's like on my list to binge.

Um, you'll dig it, you'll dig it.

I know, I, I— it's one of those that I'm so excited to listen to because I know I'll relate to a lot of it.

Celebrities and porn stars and authors and journalists. And I mean, it's really— we've got sort of everybody. It's sort of interesting, you know. Yeah. And I've got a website called amydresner.com, and I've got Rehab Confidential as a Facebook page. We have a website, and you know, we're everywhere.

If you're listening to this or you and you're out and about, don't worry, you can find all the links in the show notes here, but definitely check her out. And I swear, your Instagram posts always keep me entertained.

I love—

especially your one today. So y'all go check her out on Instagram as well.

I know, I was like, I don't care if that looks good. That's real. I don't care about if it looks good or not. I don't care.

But that's one of the reasons I love you so much is because you keep it real, you know? And I like that.

I'm fine right now where everyone's so fake and everyone feels so alone. Just speak your truth, man. You know what I mean? If you're not hurting someone, like, just, you know, your secrets are not that unique. I mean, they really aren't. That was, you know, people are like, I read your book and like, I am you. I'm like, bitch, we are all the same. That's the thing. You know, we are all really the same.

But you—

Struggling with the same thing.

You are shining light on that shame and you have already shown so much light on it. And you're inspiring so many others to step out of the shame that they've been carrying with them. And you're changing lives. And I'm sure there are so many people that have reached out to you already, but I'm sure there are so many people that have never reached out to you that you have touched their life in such a positive way and you've changed their life or saved their life by stepping forward and having the courage.

I've gotten a lot of messages and I have to say, I just, I still cry. I still cry because I don't think there's anything more important than helping other people. That's what it's about, changing lives. That's it. If you don't make a difference, what the fuck are you doing on the planet? You know, there's, um, you would know this because you're Southern, but there's this Hebrew saying that us Jews say called tikkun olam, and it's heal the world. And that's what I think that you're doing too.

So thank you. Well, doing it together, girl. And I cannot wait to hear more about your TV series. That's gonna—

I know we got meetings.

Oh, that's, that's exciting. And I'm, I'm just so— I mean, like I said, you are just so inspiring. Your heart's beautiful. I love everything about you and how down to earth and real you are. So again, thank Thank you for being here.

Oh my God, thank you for having me.

Y'all check out her book. It's amazing. And check her out on social media. I swear she'll have you laughing. She'll have you crying. She'll definitely have you entertained. So anyway, thank you so much for being here. Thanks so much for joining us this week on True Grit and Grace podcast. If you like it, please rate it or share it with your friends. That would help too. If you're not yet on the newsletter list, come over to amberlylago.com and jump on it. While you're there, you can grab a free downloadable gratitude journal, and you might just want to check out my book or even check out my monthly motivational membership. Thanks again for tuning in. And we'll see you next week. Bye.