Living with Chronic Pain and Thriving with David Seward

Welcome to True Grit and Grace, a podcast designed to empower you to claim your resilience and thrive through life's challenges.

I am Amberly Lago, a mindset coach, fitness expert and bestselling author.

Each week, I'll dive deep with the world's brightest thought leaders and elite performers to share tangible tools and practical advice to inspire you to keep your eyes on the prize and forge ahead. So get ready to conquer your fears, heal any trauma, lead with your heart, and elevate your life with grit and grace. Hi, I'm Amberly Lago. Thank you so much for tuning in and listening to the podcast. I appreciate you being here. I have to admit, I am a little nervous about recording this podcast, and I had to stop and ask why, because I don't get nervous when I talk to people that I'm interviewing on the podcast. And I think that I was nervous to record this episode because It's really important to me. It's a topic that I've been wanting to discuss because it's near and dear to my heart. I want to talk about complex regional pain syndrome, and the last time I talked about it was on national TV when I was interviewed on The Doctors. And I think the reason I was getting all nervous to talk about it is because I had so many haters come out of the woodwork last time I spoke up about this topic. And then I thought, well, This is something that I live with every day. It's something that I have to get through every day. And if I can share some tips and tools or, you know, some, some things that I do or some things that help me get through the pain of CRPS, then I'm going to keep sharing about it. And November, every November 1st actually, is called Color the Orange Day. And it's really to bring more awareness about CRPS. And so November is a very special month to me because, well, it's my oldest daughter's birthday, but also because it is awareness for CRPS. And the more awareness we can have about this horrible disease— it's ranked highest on the pain scale, there's no known cure yet, and although there are several treatments out there, most of them costs so much money. It's hard for people to get treatment, and pain often leaves you— if you're anything like me, it left me feeling very isolated and alone. And so I think we need to talk about this more. I think we need to share our experience. And so my whole goal of this podcast today is to share my experience, strength, and hope. And also bring on someone who I have met through this journey. His name's— he's a good friend of mine. His name's David Seward. He's got CRPS, and we have a conversation that we'll get into in just a little bit. But before we get started with that, I wanted to answer a few questions that I get a lot. And then I just did a question in my story on Instagram, and I'm going to answer some of those questions that you have. First of all, It used to be called reflex sympathetic dystrophy. When I was diagnosed with it, it was called RSD, and now it has been named CRPS. And I looked it up, and I'm going to say I'm— I am no expert on CRPS. I don't want to be an expert because when I start to look at all the details of it, it can get depressing. But what I can tell you is I live with this pain every single day, and I know how hard it is. And And that's why I'm talking about it. And when— but when I did go to look, because somebody on my Instagram said, well, can you share statistics? So I went to research it. And do you know the government estimates there are fewer than 200,000 people worldwide that are diagnosed with CRPS? But Reflex Sympathetic Dystrophy Syndrome Association— or I love this organization— or RSDSA, I've worked with them. I've spoke at one of their conferences. And they do so much good for the CRPS community, whether it be events or awareness or even financial aid. And they said that their estimates are 50,000 new cases in the U.S. alone. But the thing is, we don't really have a tracking system. So the more awareness we can bring to this, maybe we can get more people on board to research and start to figure out these things because I think we need it. And I'll just tell you a little bit about it. And I urge you to share this with anyone you know who is dealing with chronic pain because it's— we're going to be talking about chronic pain and tools to get through it, or family members of those who have been diagnosed with a chronic pain illness. Because when you have, or you know someone who has been diagnosed with something like this, it doesn't just affect that person. It affects the whole entire family unit. And that's for certain. I mean, I know that this has— it breaks my heart sometimes that I can't participate in some things that I used to be able to do with my family. And so I urge you to share this with others so they get more information and they maybe get some tips and tools and some also some comfort that they know they aren't going through this alone. Now what this is, people ask, what is it? And you know, recently I just had a friend of mine send me some CBD ointment. And you know, he follows me on Instagram and he's like, oh, I have this great, you know, CBD oil for you. Try it out. I'm sure he had seen that I was in pain or something. And he reached back out to me and he's like, how'd it work? And I'm like, it didn't work. And he's like, well, I don't understand. And I'm like, Well, you realize I deal with pain that's ranked highest on the pain scale. Like, I have had ketamine infusions, a spinal cord stimulator, spinal blocks, Eastern/Western medicine, spinal radio frequency. I've tried machines. I bought a machine that was $2,500. I just had someone send me a machine that has electrodes that you hook up. It's kind of like a TENS unit. And let me tell you, Nothing worked for my pain, and that took me into a really dark place. And I want to share all the things that I've done to climb out of that dark place now. So a lot of people don't understand, and you know, even family members who know you well—they don't understand. And I think a lot of people that are in pain. Boy, do we know how to put on a good face, and we we can say yeah, we're fine when really we're dealing about with about a level six on the pain scale of you know ten being the highest of that's how our pain what we're feeling, and we've learned to just really kind of get through the day. But I want to do more than just get through the day and survive. I wanted to thrive. I want to. find joy and do things that bring me happiness and have the life that I've always imagined despite this pain. And so, you know, when you're living with a pain disorder and it's with a sympathetic nervous system, it, it's telling your brain that the pain is worse than it is. And like I said, I am no expert on CRPS, and I'm not going to get into medical terms. All I can tell you is what it feels like to me, and everybody's different. You know, some people feel burning. To me, it— I was laying in bed last night and I knew I was going to record today, and I thought, well, how can I explain what I'm feeling when I'm laying in bed right now? What it feels like— I have complex regional pain syndrome in my right foot, which travels up my right leg, and usually If I haven't had that strenuous of a day and I'm not having a serious flare-up, usually I can get in bed at night as long as the covers aren't touching my leg and I can be okay. I can fall asleep pretty easily. I mean, it wasn't always that way, but usually now it's possible. But last night, I don't know why, and it's baffling. And just when I think I have it figured out what will give me a flare-up, it changes. It's a very baffling disease. And when you have your sympathetic nervous system out of whack. It, you will, you know, it changes the temperature of your leg. At one point I was getting goosebumps in parts of my leg for no reason. It changes the color. And I remember, you know, there was one day my friend Van came over to see me when I was out of the hospital, and this was right before I was diagnosed with CRPS. And he's like, Why is one of your legs a different color? And I was like, well, I don't know. It's just, it's healing, you know? And I had no idea. And if I would've known sooner, who knows? Maybe I could've gotten treatment sooner and maybe I could've gone into remission. I, I'm not sure. But I do know that the more awareness there is, that if we know what the symptoms are And we know how to take care of it, the better our chances of remission are. In fact, I have a friend that actually found me on Instagram and she reached out to me and she left me a DM and said, and this is Patty, I don't know if you're listening, but this is my friend Patty. And she had reached out and she said, I'm really scared. I was just diagnosed with CRPS. Can you talk to me? And I called her right away and I said, you need to take radical action. You need to go to your doctor and get spinal blocks. The more you can get this treated, the faster you can get into remission. You're in the early stages. There's hope for you. And guess what? She did. She went to her doctor. She talked to him. She started getting nerve blocks every week and she went into remission. She is a Pilates teacher. She's back to work. And so Those those moments when I get a message like that that someone is in remission, that is a miracle because that is few and far between. But the more we can bring awareness, the higher those numbers go up to people who can get in remission. If you've listened to the show, maybe you've already heard episode eight. I had Dr. Pete Abachi on the show, and he is one of my. Favorite doctors. He has a treatment center up in Northern California, and it is probably the most beautiful treatment center I've ever seen. I mean, they do art therapy. They have— as far as just the physical therapy aspect of it, they do mind, body, and spirit treatment. And so if you missed that episode, Dr. Abachi has some incredible insight and tips that he shares about CRPS, and that is episode 8. If you're listening and you're like, yeah, well, I want to do all these treatments, but I don't have the money. I've been out of work. I can't work because I'm in too much pain, or whatever your situation may be, because believe me, do I know about the medical cost of having chronic pain illness. I mean, at one point we had a lien on our house. We had borrowed money from a friend when I was getting ketamine infusions. We spent $20,000 on ketamine because insurance didn't cover it. So I totally get it. I mean, I was out of work the first time after my accident for a year and a half, and so it's, it's scary. And I didn't know— I didn't have a lot of resources, which I wish I did. I didn't know a lot about CRPS, and so I also have on episode— oh gosh, I think it's episode 16. Yeah, it's episode 16. I have a guy by the name of Philip Robert on the show, and he has a foundation called the Burning Limb Foundation. And his foundation is set up— he has CRPS. He is in remission. Well, I haven't talked to him in a while. I pray that he's still in remission. He has set up a foundation to help those who've been diagnosed with financial— just getting treatment, like with a financial aspect of putting money towards whatever treatment that you are looking at getting, whether it's with, you know, Dr. Abachi, or whether he— I know he works closely with Dr. Katinka, and if you're a CRPS warrior listening to this, you've probably heard of Dr. Katinka. I actually interviewed her on episode 34, and a lot of people call her Dr. K. She is a chiropractor, and she does treatment for CRPS with a whole array of all kinds of stuff between treating your vagus nerve to leaky gut to looking at all the different medications you're on and trying to get you on the right medications. And we go into more detail about that on episode 34, so I would highly suggest you listen to that. Now, I've never been treated by Dr. K. I would love to see her facility one day, but I know— I'm just going to be completely transparent— I know it's really expensive because I've heard from other people who've said it's expensive. So You might want to check into, you know, maybe getting some help from the Burning Lamb. And I'm not sure how all that works, but I'm just trying to give you as many resources and tips as I can to help you along the way. And now I want to go over some of the questions that I have— I've got from social media before we get to our guest for today. And, and one of the reasons I have my guest David on is because He's got a heart of gold. He, he really does. And you know, he's from Texas and he's got a lot of grit. And it's really rare for a guy to admit when they're in pain or ask for help. And I had David on because not only is it rare for someone to have CRPS that's a male, because usually it's females, that have this for some reason and they don't know why. But it's rare that a Texas fella would admit when he's in pain, ask for help, and then share so vulnerably with others in order to help others. And so I'm really happy to have him on. And I wanted to go over a few of the questions that you had posted in the questions comment on Instagram. And if you're not following me on Instagram, you can follow me at Amberly Motivation, and you can see a lot of the behind the scenes and also participate in asking questions or making suggestions for the podcast. The first person I had ask a question was Gina. Gina is at Gina— man, Texas is big. Gina's from Texas as well, and she said, well, there's no cure and friends and family don't understand this. And yes, that's true. There's no cure yet, but I have hope that there one day will be a cure. But the thing that I want to say is you cannot just sit around and hope for a cure. You have to live your life, and you have to live it to the fullest, and you have to be your own advocate. And if a doctor, you know, of course listen to your doctors, but if a doctor has told you, well, you have this incurable disease, there's no known cure, you're disabled, you won't be able to do this, this, and this, then you have to be your own advocate and you decide for yourself what you're going to do and what you're not going to be able to do. And you know, everybody is different, and I have people that comment To me all the time, like, how do you have CRPS and, you know, you're able to work out and you're able to do what you do? And everybody is different. And I had somebody say, well, you know, I've got CRPS and I'm— I just can't work out. And I said, I have CRPS, but on a bad flare day, I can still work out my upper body. But you have to listen to your body. And sometimes we really have to test the waters and know how far we can push towards getting further than we thought we could go, to get stronger and feel better and gain more confidence and know that we can do more than we ever imagined. But then we also have to know when to give ourselves the gift of grace and rest and recover. And no one can decide that for you. No one can do that except for you. You're the only one that knows how far you can push yourself. And I always say I love when somebody tells me, oh, you can't do that. Oh, there's no way you'll be able to run again. I'm like, oh really? Watch me. And I can run again. I can chase after my daughter. Now, I don't run for cardio anymore because that does flare me up. And it only took me years to discover that I was actually pretty insane trying to keep running with the same result of being in a flare-up. So instead I do other things like I do— I hike, I bike. I just got a Peloton and I've been, I've been biking. But back to the comment that Gina left of they don't get it. No, no one who doesn't have CRPS— there's not anyone that's going to understand it like someone that has CRPS. And so don't expect your family to understand it on that deeper level. Yes, they will be able to see the pain in your eyes. Yes, they can listen to you, but they will not truly get it. And that's when you lean into your warrior tribe, you know, your CRPS brothers and sisters, and you talk to them. And that's why I have built this community of people so we can lean in on each other. In fact, right now We just finished doing a 30-day movement challenge, which was every day for 30 days for 30 minutes a day, move your body. Whether that was just getting up and stretching, cleaning the kitchen, dancing, and I had people tap dancing. Whether it was doing fighting, I had somebody send in a photo of them fighting with swords. Running, biking. Just moving— yoga, Pilates, whatever it may be— just to move your body. The reason for that is I know how much fitness has changed my life. When you move your body, you move your mind, and you release endorphins which combat pain. Not only that, you feel, you feel better when you move your body. You build your confidence, you get stronger, and then The icing on the cake is you might look better too afterwards. So this Move Your Body Challenge has, has really touched my heart because I had somebody write into me that they were diagnosed with CRPS and had not done anything for 2 years. And they ran across me on Instagram and saw the challenge and was like, well, I'm gonna try this. And they have been a part of the challenge actively Every single day for the first time in 2 years, they've moved their body. And that is what it's all about. It's about connecting with a community and inspiring each other and supporting each other through the good and the bad. And speaking about community, I really want you to take a look at your community right now, who you're surrounding yourself with. Look, I was in a support group for CRPS, and somebody had invited me in this group, and I was blown away when I was on The Doctors and the haters that came out were all in the support group. Now, I'm going to tell you, I don't— I can understand why they were upset because my 10-minute segment was edited down to about 2 and a half minutes. And so people that don't know me, they cut out the parts where they talk about, You know, I, I did ketamine infusions and had a spinal stimulator. So it just looked like I was this girl that had an accident and then I just used my mindset and I'm pain-free. Well, that's not the case. Needless to say, it was so bad and I kept getting all these pings on my phone of all these notifications of people that were like so upset with me. And the thing is, I would have people that knew me that would say, No, Amberly's the real deal. Like she, what do you mean? She's you know she's a disgrace to our community. She's just trying to bring awareness and this and that. And I had to leave the group. And sometimes in life you got to make that choice. Sometimes in life you got to let go of people or support groups or even you know just you got it. It's hard, but you got to. Let it go and ask yourself this question: Is this relationship with this person leading you to your higher self, or is it tearing you down or making you feel negative or making you be stuck in a pity party? And so it's really important to ask those questions. And you know, we can't always get rid of everybody in our life.

I'm not saying to go out and get rid of everybody.

I'm just saying to take a look at. The people that you're surrounding yourself with, whether it's, you know, family members who are negative, limit your time with them. Friends who aren't supportive or, or, you know, don't make you feel good, maybe it's time to stop spending as much time with them or cut them out completely. And then the people that you're following on social media, if If someone doesn't make you feel good, don't follow them. If it doesn't make you feel good to see me working out and it's making you feel like crap, then ask yourself, why is this making me feel like crap? Is this a mirror to what I'm not doing? How can I do more? Or if you're like not there and you're like, I just don't like Amberly, you don't need to follow. Don't follow me on Instagram. And I know that sounds really harsh. But it's so important to— if you want to feel better and do better mentally and physically, you really have to pay attention to what you're surrounding yourself with and, and who you're surrounding yourself with. So really make sure that you're surrounding yourself with inspired, positive, passionate people. It's so important. And, you know, we can share with our family members what we're going through. But I don't know if they'll ever get it. All we can do is try to explain how we feel and then do the best that's for us. I had Nellie on Instagram ask, how can we control the pain? Well, if I knew how we could control the pain, then I might just be the most famous person in the world because I don't think there is a way to control the pain. I mean, CRPS is, is truly baffling. But what I can tell you, some of the things that I do to help with my pain, um, and I have really surrendered to the whole control thing. I realize I am not in control, and when I did try to control my pain That led me to drinking every day, becoming an alcoholic, hitting my rock bottom, and then by the grace of God climbing out and being able to take steps to get better every single day. And so when I was trying to control my pain, I was, you know, taking medication. I started drinking every day to try to numb out the pain. And that's just the thing, like whatever kind of pain that you're in, whether it's emotional Emotional or physical, we can't just try to like, you know, drown it out, you know, stuff it down. We have to embrace it, ask our bodies, what, what does this pain mean? What is my body trying to tell me? And that's what I do now instead of thinking— and I know what you mean, Nelly, if you're listening. I know what you mean about control the pain. I know you're, you're meaning how can we lessen it. I think that's what you mean. But when I was able to finally surrender to it and look at it as embracing the pain is okay. What is my body trying to tell me? What have I overdone it today? And it's as simple as when I start to flare up as oh, is my sock too tight? Is my shoe not the right shoe because my CRPS is in my right foot? I go through a list of questions and it starts from the really obvious of. Is my shoe too tight? Is my sock too tight? If I take those off and I'm still in pain, I'm like, okay, am I overly stressed? Then it goes down to the food. And that's what one of the next questions that was asked was, what we eat and, and how that can really affect our pain. And so the next question I ask is, what did I eat or drink that's making me feel this way? More flared up because CRPS is an inflammatory disease. And, and the more inflamed our body is or our nerves are, the more we're going to feel that pain. And so for me, I know that when I was drinking, when I used to drink, it would, you know, dull out the nervous system and the pain. And then alcohol is inflammatory. So the next day it would be back with a vengeance and it became this just vicious cycle. And so I had to— I chose to cut out alcohol altogether. I started eating— I've always eaten pretty healthy, but I started to really have to focus on what I was eating and start to cut foods out that were processed, sugary foods, you know, a lot of foods that cause inflammation in the body. I was like, can't have that because I will feel it Pain-wise. And then I take a look at my sleep. Have I gotten enough sleep? And now I know all this sounds pretty basic, but when you're like an entrepreneur like me and a homeschooling mom and doing a million different things, it can be— it can start to get easy to skip on my sleep or not eat properly or forget to work out or all those things that can sneak up on you. And so Going down this checklist for me is really helpful. So what am I wearing? What am I eating? How much sleep am I getting? What are my stress levels? And then did I forget to take my medication? And a lot of people don't talk about their medication because, you know, I'm not a doctor, but I will share with you what I take. I fought this for a couple of years. I never took any medications and I didn't want to have to take anything. And please don't listen to this and say, oh well, Amberly takes this and she's all better and look at her, because like I said, everyone is different. And so what works for me may not work for you, but maybe it's something that you could talk to your doctor about. Now, I am not— I'm, I'm going to list some things that I take. I'm not, you know, Sponsored or paid by any means to talk about this stuff. I'm just sharing what works for me, and this might be— I don't know, maybe this is a mistake, but it works for me. I take Lyrica. I take 150 milligrams 3 times a day, and that helps with the burning. Now, sometimes it feels like there's a vice grip hooked on my foot, and it doesn't always help. One of my doctors had told me to take 4 Advil at a time, and that's like prescription strength. So sometimes I do that. And then there is a gel that used to be prescription strength only. It's called Voltaren or Voltaren. I'm not even sure how to pronounce it, but it's over the counter now. And I swear that stuff is liquid gold because you can put it on top of And if you are having swelling from CRPS, I can put that on my ankle and foot, and the next morning I swear my swelling will be down. It's, it's amazing. And like I said, I'm not getting paid to share about those medications, and I might be make— breaking some rules by even sharing that, but I feel like not many people talk about this, and we have to share. If look, if I found something that worked for me that took all my pain away, I would be shouting off the rooftops about it that it worked. But until then, all we can do is just share these little things that work for us along the way. And something that I do every single day is if you know me, you've you've heard me say the word pacer. And what I do is I pace through the pain with this simple, like, 5-step process that I check to see if I'm in pain. PACER stands for perspective, acceptance, community, endurance, and rest. And when you have CRPS, it can lead you just down A road of despair because there are some days when I'm like I can't even stand up. I feel like my I'm in the prison of my home because I can't leave because I can't walk. And then there are other days where I'm like I am a badass warrior and I got this. But it is an emotional roller coaster when I feel myself starting to spiral down into despair. I always shift my perspective. And the easiest way to do that is to go to gratitude and count your blessings and hunt for the good and really think about what you're grateful for in your life. And I, I tell you, this is a game changer every morning. And you don't just do it, you need to get grounded every single day with gratitude. And how I do that is every morning I wake up and I write down 3 things that I'm grateful for, and I have an accountability partner that I will text her in the morning. I take a screenshot of something that I've read, either in a self-development book or an inspirational book, and I'll take a screenshot of that and I'll write 3 things out that I'm grateful for, and I send that to her. Now, it's one thing to write 3 things down, it's one thing to text it, but I want you to really feel it, like really feel what you're grateful for. Because when we're grateful, it turns what we can't do into what we can do, and it turns what we don't have into what we do have. And it's alchemy. It really truly is life-changing. So the minute you start to feel like you're going down that road of sadness or self-pity, do what you can to shift your perspective. It's not necessarily what's going on in your life or your world or your circumstances. But it's how you view it. The next part of PACER is acceptance. Before you can heal, before you can make your life better, you have to be in acceptance for what is going on in your life right now. And I say that because I was in denial for a long time. I did not want to believe that I had CRPS, and I went to doctor after doctor after doctor trying to get them to say, oh yeah, he— that other doctor was wrong. You don't have it. But I couldn't, and I couldn't get out of pain. And it wasn't until I was like, well, this is it. It was when I went to a doctor to ask them to just amputate my leg. And this is after having 34 surgeries to save my leg. I now was going to say, yeah, I need you to just cut it off. I can't get rid of the pain and I can't deal with it. So you need to just amputate. And he said, well, we can't do that. It could make it worse. It could spread. There's no guarantee that it will get rid of your complex regional pain syndrome. It was at that moment that I was crushed. And then I thought, well, these are the cards I've been dealt, and I can choose to be in denial and keep going down that road of despair, or I can Choose to play the hell out of these cards, and so acceptance is truly the beginning of your healing journey, of being able to take some action steps to make your life better. And that truly led me to a community of people. When we can be really transparent, that leads to our transformation, and it leads us to a community of people, of like-minded people that go, oh. She gets it. She totally understands me, and if she can get through her hard day, then I can too. And that's how I feel when I meet other people. I'm like, oh my God! He totally gets it. Oh, if he can get through this, then I can too. That gives hope, and man, we need hope and a lot of. of endurance to get through any chronic illness or chronic pain. And the next part of PACER is endurance, and that's really where passion and perseverance come into play. And what has gotten me out of some of the darkest times is being of service to others and getting out of myself and seeing how I can support my community. And when we have, you know, a purpose that really Fuels our endurance and it gives us, you know, that ability and that stamina to keep going. And the next part is because, you know what, for me it's easy like to keep going. I want to go, go, go, but I've had to learn to rest. And the last part of PACER is rest. And it's really about loving yourself, respecting yourself, listening to your body. Taking time to recover and rejuvenate. And, you know, there are some days I'm like, oh, there I go charging my phone again, but I haven't stopped. I keep going. And then last year I was in the, the ER like 6 times because of infections because I was just wearing my body down. So I think this time in COVID has even reinforced that R in PACER even more, even though I've been really busy. I have thought, wow, I think the whole world is learning to rest. And you know, we're all kind of rebalancing our whole lives and looking at what's important, what's a distraction, what's not so important. And so if you want to hear more about PACER, you can always listen to my TED Talk. You can just Google Amberly Lago TED Talk and it'll come up. And please reach out to me if you have any questions or, you know, and again, I don't like to ask this, but Apple sure does like it when you have reviews. So if you could rate and review the podcast, I would love that too. And one more quick thing before we get into today's guest, we just talked about the importance of community. And, you know, I have a book called True Grit and Grace, and I have come together And I'm really excited about this collaboration with an amazing company called High Tide. And they've worked with authors like Amy Purdy and Brené Brown. And I am doing a book club with them. And it is a 4-week book club and you get to do a daily prompt and be a part of a community. And I'm really excited about this because it's all live. It's a live Q&A. So the link will be in the show notes, or if you're listening, it's at hightide.com/crews/truegritandgrace. So again, that's hightide.com/crews/truegritandgrace, or you can find it in the show notes. I hope you'll join the book club because I would really love to see you face to face every week. And anyway, our next guest is a CRPS warrior, a good friend of mine, has a heart of gold. I got David Seward. So let the show begin.

Hi there, this is Amberly Lago, and I have one of my really special friends on. He's somebody I go to to talk about whether it is business, whether it's personal, whether I'm having a bad day or a good day, he's the guy that I go to. David Seward, thank you for being here. Thank you. You're a friend of mine and you are a fellow CRPS warrior. And I wanted to bring you on, especially because it's November and we're really, you know, trying to bring awareness to complex regional pain syndrome. So welcome, welcome to the show.

I'm honored that you would choose to spend some professional time with me today. And, and you want to share a little bit of my experiences. So this is, this is a highlight of my week. I'm glad. I'm glad I can, can join you on this deal. Any excuse to talk to you, I'll take.

Oh, well, you know what, if there are, if there's a silver lining in CRPS, It's you because I don't think, who knows if we would have met had it not been for CRPS that brought us together. And I met you along this journey and I was like, oh my goodness. And you're from Texas. So we connected on a deeper level because we experienced so much of the same on an everyday basis. I would love for you to share a little bit about you. And what happened when you had a life-changing moment and were diagnosed with CRPS? Can you take us through your journey a little bit and share?

Of course. It was a long journey. So I'll try to condense it and you can tell me to elaborate on things or you can, you know, hold up the hey Dave, shut up You know, I'd gone in September of 2013 for a cardiac cath, you know, where they go up in your femoral artery with a camera and look behind your heart. I've been having chest pain and things like that. It's supposed to be an outpatient deal, right? And I wake up from the procedure and I couldn't feel anything from the waist down.

Hmm.

And the nurse came in, you know, with the little plastic jug. Hey, we need to sample. If you can fill this up, then, you know, you'll be able to go home. And I told her I couldn't, and she rolls me over, and I'm watching this bottle fill up, but I feel nothing. And I told her this, and she had this look come over her face, like all the color left her face. And I'm like, well, that's not a good sign. Next thing I know, I'm being run down to a CT room. I've got a nurse on each side of me looking for a vein to put dye in.

And it's always scary when you get that reaction of someone else and they're looking at you like, you should be very worried right now.

Right. And they're a healthcare professional. And you're like, oh, if they're scared, then what's happening? So a week later, I leave the hospital on a walker and in a wheelchair.

Hmm.

And I'm unable to— I can't put any weight on my right leg. Everything from the right knee down was ice cold. There was no pulse on the top of my foot. And the cardiologist said, yeah, I was meaning to tell you, when I was going in to insert the catheter, I made a mistake and I mistook your femoral nerve for your femoral artery and I severed the femoral nerve. And he was like, but the good news is your heart's okay. And later I'll come to find out that, you know, it nearly cost me an arm and a leg, literally. But so that was September.

Of what year was that?

2013.

2013.

And so September to December, had physical therapy 3 times a week. Kept watching my leg get smaller and smaller and smaller, you know, which atrophy, the body was using it as food, and people around me becoming scared. And then finally I located a doctor in Dallas and he did a series of surgical procedures, 3 of them actually, to confirm that In fact, I did have this horrible disease known as CRPS, complex regional pain syndrome.

So through that process, and I know you've summed up a lot in a short time, you were married, you've got kids, and your whole life changed drastically going in for a pretty routine procedure. And coming out when not even being able to function properly and, and being in severe pain. So—

Yeah.

And knowing that, well, you know, I know you're from Texas, you're a guy, you're like cowboy up, let's get through this. When do you think you knew, okay, something is not right when Because on a level, on a, on a scale from 1 to 10, how high was your pain?

Oh, it was all the way at 10. I had never felt the pain. And there was nothing physically happening to me that I could explain that was causing the pain. Like when, when the needles would shoot up my leg, there was nothing touching my heel, nothing touching my foot. I could, I could be asleep. And I turn over and then boom, here's the pain screaming at you and you wake up. I could be laying there in a position of comfort, wide awake during the day, right? You find that one position, you're like, okay, I'm not gonna move. I got it. I found it. And then next thing you know, boom, shooting pain. And you're like, oh. And the whole, the whole time This is happening. And you know, my first career was cop and a fireman. So it was, for lack of a better term, it was very much a macho career, right?

Mm-hmm.

And I was even on the SWAT team. So our saying on SWAT was, when people need help, they call 911 and they get patrol. When patrol gets there and they can't handle it, they call SWAT. You know, we were young and arrogant, whatever. But it was always, I'm a fixer. I'm the guy that handles it. And I couldn't handle it. I couldn't fix it. I couldn't make it better. And I couldn't even get up and get a Dr Pepper in the morning. I couldn't make that walk from the bed to the refrigerator. I had to wait for my wife to wake up. During that time, my second son, Tyler, baseball player, he was selected to play for Team USA in the Dominican Republic. And I couldn't go with him. They wouldn't clear me to fly pressurized airplane. They said, no, it'll, it'll jack with you too much. I missed that.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and in that, then my marriage falls apart. So you're in the midst of chaos, but you're struggling to take it hour by hour, moment by moment, second by second. You, and you go through I guess you call it maybe the stages of grief because you, you don't, maybe you don't fully realize that the old you is dying because later in life I would find out that I had to become a new person.

Mm-hmm.

And during this whole process, I missed so much. And, um, you know, December of that same year, um, I ended up— my marriage, you know, my wife filed for divorce. She surprised me one day, the day after Christmas, and she said, um, you know, for the past 4 months, this thing's all been about you. I need it to be about me for a while. So here's the divorce. And the bad thing about CRPS is it's a nerve disease, right? So when we get upset, then exponentially, we're going to physically feel it. And I'm not saying that anybody else that goes through emotions don't hurt. I'm saying we get that, but then we get the little added bonus of, you know, it causing a pain flare-up. And that's part of how I was forced to become a new person in how I respond to things instead of reacting to things.

Well, I really appreciate More than words can say, just you coming on and sharing your experience, strength, and hope, and your vulnerability as a man. There are not many men that will step up and say, you know, how you were hurting, not just physically, but in every way— emotionally, mentally— how it is a struggle. And that's the thing. Pain is pain. So whether you're feeling it physically or emotionally, we have to have different ways to get through that. And I'm so glad you made the choice to become this new version of yourself because, David, so many people don't. So many people, they don't continue to fight the good fight. They give up.

Yeah.

They cave in. They— because who wouldn't blame— I mean, it's what you have to go through on a daily basis. And that's why when you meet someone who, you know, gets it, who gets— understands that pain, like they live, they walk the walk, they talk the talk, they know what it's like to be in your shoes, it's an instant connection and you're lifelong friends because— I know that I can call you and you get it. You know you can call me. And I'm like, I've been there. I know. And sometimes we don't know how to fix it, but we just need to know that somebody's there and that helps us get through the situation. And I just really appreciate you stepping up and sharing your experience because I think this might be hard for men, and I don't know of many men that are diagnosed with complex regional pain syndrome. It's more common in women. And sometimes I wonder, do more men have it and they just don't talk about it? They try to keep sucking it up or cowboy up, or, you know, I don't know. But I know that it's more common. in women, I wanted to go back and kind of unpack some of the things that you shared.

Mm-hmm.

First of all, that yes, when you're more stressed or emotionally you're hurting, it does cause more physical pain. And so I think it's really important to really take care of ourselves, mind, body, and spirit, in every way we can. I wanted to ask you, what are some of the treatments that you have tried that didn't work? And what are some of the treatments that you have tried or you still do that do work?

Well, medically, we would do— I had the lumbar sympathectomy where they go in and they sever the nerve ganglion. And that gave me a 60 or 70-day reprieve.

It did.

Yep, yep, gave me about a day.

I made it from December to almost March, and I ended up in the hospital because I got a lot of blood clots in my lungs from being sedentary, you know, during those first 4 months of having CRPS. And so during that time, I They had wanted to go in. They discovered that it had jumped. Well, I'll get to that in a minute. We're talking treatment. So even the nerve injections, facet injections, medications— God, out of pocket each month, we were $2,600 a month out of pocket at the pharmacy.

Mm-hmm.

You know, hydrocodone, trazodone, gabapentin, Lyrica, Neurontin, fentanyl, fentanyl patch, 100 micrograms per hour, change it every 24 hours. But I wanted to make sure I never became addicted. So that one patch that I should change every day, I would wear for 3 days because I was like, no, I've heard so many stories about opioid addiction and I'm not going to be that guy. And then in 2016, when Prince passed away, Which they, they tied to fentanyl.

I've never had fentanyl. Is that an opioid? I'm not— what is that?

It is. It's the strongest, one of the most deadliest out there.

Okay. I have not had that, but I'm allergic to a lot of medications. I'm allergic to morphine. And so maybe it's in the same family.

I'm not sure.

Whoa. Wow. I can't imagine you going through all of those surgeries and not— oh gosh.

I started developing a lot of allergies, I think because I had 34 surgeries. So then I started developing allergies to certain medications. And so I have to be very Careful, but I don't think I've ever had that, but it could be in the same family. I'm not sure, but I felt the same. I was really scared. I had heard so many horror stories and it runs in my family. Addiction runs in my family.

Same here.

And I was really scared of becoming addicted to opioids. And so I was very careful of that. And so, but it's a, it's a balance, right? Where you have to make sure you take enough so you can function and do things in life, but don't take anything to get addicted. So that's, that's a lot for you to manage the, but the patch and your medications and—

And don't be a zombie. You know, you don't want that either, because I need to be a dad. And I need to be an example. So I ran through the whole gamut of treatments, of everything. And we got to the point where my doctors said, okay, here's where we are. 2 choices. You can— we can amputate your right leg or you can try the spinal cord stimulator. And I said, well, then we have one choice because last I checked, if you amputate my leg, you're not going to put it on ice. And then maybe 5 years down the road when technology exists, you'll reattach it and everything will be cool.

You know what?

I've heard so many horror stories because I actually asked the doctors to amputate my leg.

I was like, I can't deal with this pain anymore after all those surgeries. I was like, can you just go ahead and amputate it? And they said, my doctor said, no, it could actually cause more pain. It could work, but it could make your CRPS worse and it could actually make it It's spread. So I don't, I don't know. So you chose to keep your leg and do the spinal cord stimulator.

And by that time, mine had already jumped. So on both legs, both arms, both hands, throat, and stomach. And the spinal cord stimulator— so we're December of— excuse me, September of 2018. They said this, right? And as you know, if you even starting an IV in a CRPS patient, that can cause a flare or cause it to spread to that area. So I was— I would always shy away from invasive stuff, right? But I prayed on it. I talked to my youngest 2 sons, um, talked to my mom, talked to my uncle. So we did the trial, and the first day from the trial, I went with the Nevro. product. The first day after the trial, I woke up, and prior to this, my morning routine was I'm going to wake up, I'm going to take all my meds, and then I'm going to do the morning crossword on my phone and wait for my meds to kick in so I can slide out of bed and start my day. That morning, I woke up and I ran and got myself something to eat, and then I realized, hey, you didn't take your medicine. But it was like, well, now this is a little bit of a change. What's happening here? So throughout the whole trial, I told my rep, I said, let's push it. I want to test drive this thing and I want to know how good this is going to be. And it was just a huge, huge success. And I'm a Christian and I believe that when you're on the right path, you're going to get little affirmations, little nuggets of God saying, all right, Dave, here's where I need you. And they were gonna be 4 months out before they could do the permanent implant on me. But we were somehow— and well, it's by the grace of God that 3 weeks later, I was inside getting the permanent, my Nevro implanted. And I believe their secret is they patented the higher frequency range. So the competitors can't do that. So I don't get the buzzing feeling down the leg.

I don't get any of that stuff. See, I had that. I had the buzzing feeling down the leg. And when I first had the trial, the stimulator put in, they They cranked the machine up and my leg flew up off the bed.

Like a TENS unit kind of thing, right?

Freaked me out. But mine didn't work. My back reacted really— and like you, I believe God has a plan. And it was not a part of my plan because I ended up in the ER the same day that I went in for the trial. It was just really bad. I saw Dr. Prager and he is one of the best in the country. He's top in the country for spinal stimulators. And he was like, I don't understand this. I've never had a patient react like this to the spinal stimulator. I've never seen anything like it. And meanwhile, I was in the ER saying, if you don't get this thing out of my back, I'm going to die. I'm going to rip it out right now. It was just bad.

Right.

And so I'm so glad that you're sharing this because we all have different experiences. And that's the baffling part about complex regional pain syndrome is what works for me may not work for you. But if we all share what works for us, if we can put those pieces together and come together and share our experience, then somewhere along the way, I think I think we all get stronger together, whether, you know, we might hurt the same, but we might be tougher mentally to be able to get through those situations. So I'm so grateful that that worked for you, but I know that you still have pain. Have you been able to cut your medications down?

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. My 30-day prescription of my strongest med will last me 45 days now. So I'm, I'm just because I'm not in pain, not as much pain, I begin to titrate down. Now, I still have flares. I'm not saying that, that I'm cured. And I'm not saying I found the magic, the magic beans or whatever. Pain still comes.

But it's manageable.

It is manageable. And I know that, that I can make it through to the other side. And you made a great point earlier when you talked about, you know, knowing that, that other people are going through it. So many times when, when you're scared and you're going through a battle, you feel alone. And if you know that there's somebody else that has done it and made it to the other side or made it over that hill, then that can inspire you. And I look at your voyage, and if that spinal cord stimulator would have worked for you, maybe you wouldn't have been all over national news. Maybe you wouldn't be a bestselling author on CRPS. Maybe you wouldn't be on TED Talk talking about— Yeah. Everything you've done. So your route— and, and you've turned it around, and my God, in my mind, you are, you are a female John Wayne. And the strong— strong— make me cry. The strongest people in the world I know are women, you know, raised by a single mom. And we've talked a lot about our mom, your big mama. You know, of course, we found out that you and I go all the way back to Student Council State Convention in Austin, Texas.

That's right. That's right.

You know, there's, there's some cool— one particular—

We were destined to meet.

We just had to meet this way instead. It just came full circle. I remember— that's a good point that you brought up because I felt so alone in my pain and I felt like nobody understood it. And, you know, I think one of the worst things I did was when I Googled CRPS and I found just the most horrible pictures of, and that it was called the suicide disease. And I was left feeling pretty hopeless, like, okay, well, I'm not going to look on the internet anymore because that is just taking me down a road of despair.

Yeah.

And so, you know, I would love to change the narrative a little bit of— and give people hope. And you're so right. If we do know that somebody's had a bad day, but then they can get through it, it's not always easy, but we do get through it. And when you can see that light at the end of the tunnel, that hope, it allows you to sometimes really trudge through the day. You know, sometimes it's hard. Just the other day, I had shared on my social media about, you know, I'd given a talk and I had what's called, I think some people call it pain brain, where you just get foggy and the pain kind of takes over and you can't think clear. And I was giving a presentation and I was just like, the pain felt like it just consumed me to where my brain was like, no, you are not going to even be able to talk anymore. And it really scared me. And so I was sharing on social media, just in my story, like, I, you know, the pain took over. I couldn't talk. And that's like a fear of mine. And my husband saw it and he said, why would you share that? And I said, well, because it's what I'm going through. And I'm— I keep it real. Like, I'm going to tell people, yeah, this, this is real. And it's scary sometimes, but if we don't like embrace our feelings or feel those feelings and we just keep stuffing it down or trying to pretend like everything's okay, like I'm not saying just, you know, to, to only focus on what's wrong, but if we just take a look at it, and for me, I had to learn to let me feel these feelings, let me acknowledge the pain, and then What can I do to move through this? So I'd love to know, what do you do to move through the pain when you're having a flare-up? Because you do a lot. You are constantly supporting other people. You are, you know, in the entertainment. You are producing some amazing music right now. You're an incredible dad and you do all these things. What do you think it is in you that allows you to have a flare-up or battle CRPS but still do a lot of the things that you love?

Wow, great question. You know, your brain will lie to you if you let it. You can, you can convince yourself that I'll fail, or I need to just lay in bed all day. Or you can You can tell yourself, no, I got to push through this. So I like to do something to distract me. I'm OCD. And when I'm on something, I'm on it. And that can become a distractor for me. At the same token, when the pain becomes too much, I've got to take a breath. I've got to take a break. Like the perfect example this week, One of the days I was in the studio, we were in the control room, and I got up and I walked out into the artist suite that we were all staying in. And I just needed a second just to make sure, you know, I was gathering my thoughts. And it wasn't even so much of a pain thing. But Joe, I wasn't gone 5 minutes and he comes in there Dave, are you okay? Yeah, I'm good. And my boys are the same way. If, if I— Lincoln, my youngest, um, if I groan, if I moan, Dad, what happened? Are you okay? Did you charge yourself today? Have you plugged in today? Are you— and so I, I have a huge, huge, huge support team around me to kind of mentally keep me in check. I don't know that I could honestly answer that question because again, I don't have a secret formula. I love when I can jump on it.

That, that is right there. That is the— what you basically said was distraction. Like what resilient people really choose very carefully what they put their attention on. So I know for me, if I focus on my pain, my pain gets worse. I acknowledge it, but then I look at what I can focus on. So distraction, just like, just like you would do with a kid who falls down and skins their knees, you acknowledge it and then you distract them.

That's what I did as a mom.

That's right. And, you know, but yeah, distraction from the pain. So you do that with your music, with, with your fiddle, with being of service to others. You're always helping others. I mean, I couldn't believe You sent me a link. You did this huge fundraiser. And I just, you had asked if I would donate some books or a book and I sent some books. Next thing I know, you are like on the news. Oh, you're so sweet. Next thing I know, you're on the news and you've got True Grit and Grace right there on the news with you. So you did so much. You're darn right. Distraction. There's power in the pause. So you pause and then you have a good support system. And then you also do things that you love or do things that spark joy. And that is a formula right there. And those are all things that I do. And those things allow you to, to find joy and keep going through life, but really enjoy the life you live instead of letting it, you know, CRPS define you. You're like, oh no, I've got a different plan. I want more out of life. I want to be— I want to show up for my kids and set the example of resilience. And you do that. So I think there's so much, so many nuggets in what you just shared.

And I want to know more about the fiddle.

No. So, you know, I come from a musical family. My grandparents, my grandfather was a touring musician, and I never— they never pushed me toward it. But when I was laid up from the doctor's mistake, I started thinking bucket list, you know, and I decided I wanted to learn how to play the fiddle. And I'd had this fiddle that my great-great-grandfather had passed down to me. It's from about 1876. And so when I play, I play their kind of music. You know, Texas is a huge Western swing kind of music. You know, Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys, George Strait, those types of guys. And when I— even the old fiddle, my oldest one that I'm talking about, the chin rest on it and the fingerboard, are still original.

Wow.

So when I'm touching that chinrest and that fingerboard, the people before me that I admire were touching those same, same spots. So that's a, that's a cool distraction, but that can become frustrating at times too because I'm not, I'm not where I want to be. And I'm like, no, it can be better. I got to be better. And that's that stupid OCD thing coming out in me, you know. You want to be the best.

I think it can be good though because that, that pushes you to keep moving moving forward and trying, you know, really aspiring to be the best version of yourself. Where I get caught up is I have to remember to enjoy the journey. Like just enjoy the day, be in the moment, you know? And that's one of the things that I really love about the podcast too, is getting to connect with people and friends and thought leaders and just get— and warriors and get to be In that moment, that's when I enjoy life the most—when I'm really in the present moment. So I think that you know that that's a good thing, and I'm sure playing the fiddle—you're in the moment. You are right there in the moment. I wanted to ask you how this has impacted you mentally. Touched on a little bit how it impacted your family, how it impacted your health, and things that you've done to get through that. What are a couple of things that you could share? that have helped you get through this mentally? Like, what was the decision that you were like, you know what? I'm not giving up. I am getting out of this bed. I'm going to do more. Where did you— what did you think about? What led you to just get up and keep moving forward mentally?

Gosh, hard to answer this in a condensed way. But I'm gonna try, you know. So my mom, 5-foot, little bit of nothing but a huge fireball all her life, right? So she created this, the drive in me. You don't give up. You can do that. And if somebody's gonna tell me I can't do something, then I'm gonna tell you to pull up a chair and sit down and watch, because by God, we're fixing to do it.

And, and, you know, you're like the male version of me.

You can dance better than me. So you just— and you have to look, I could lay down on the floor and I could pitch a fit and I could scream and I could cry, but the only thing that's going to change is I'm going to look more ignorant than I did when I first laid down and started. It's not going to change my pain, probably going to make it worse. But you get through it and you, you get to the point where before I used to say, no, I can't do this today. I gotta go be at Callan's soccer game, or I gotta be at Lincoln's baseball game, or I gotta go to the doctor, or I gotta go to the dry cleaners. I gotta do this. Everything was I gotta. Okay, take it all away. Have your life taken away from you. Lay in a bed and, and want all of those things back. And I— and it became, I get to.

Mm-hmm.

I get to go to my son's football game today. I get to get in the car and I get to drive. I am blessed that I've made it this far along in my journey that those things that I used to have to do now are things I get to do. And it's, it's a privilege. And, you know, you, you look at people that have been you know, wrongfully accused and gone to prison. Their life was taken away and they get another shot at life. People that should have been dead, people that doctors say, man, you weren't supposed to make it through that, you should be dead. That sends a huge message that, man, it's time to get to living because—

Mm-hmm.

We don't have a guarantee about tomorrow. You and I don't have a guarantee. None of us have a guarantee that we're gonna eat turkey this year because we don't know that we're gonna be here for Thanksgiving.

Mm-hmm.

We know that we're here right now, and from here on out, every moment is a gift. And when you look at it that way, when you have that attitude, you cannot say that you are not a blessed person. If there's one thing you can appreciate in your life, then you're blessed.

Mm-hmm.

Then you have it. And that's kind of one of the things that, that COVID has really taught too. Everything shuts down. So you focus on, you focus on the kids, you focus on being outside and looking up at the sky and listening to the sounds that birds make and looking at the deer running across to the creek. Simple, simple things. We got out of the fast lane and we're into the slowdown lane. And I probably rambled on there too much.

No, that was, that was so great.

I mean, it's so much about what you're describing is you had a major perspective shift and it is not so much what happens in our world or what our circumstances are. It is how we view those things.

Right.

If we could just make one tiny change today that instead of saying, I have to go work out, I get to work out. Like, it is a celebration of the things that I can do. I do that a lot. You know, when I am, there is a hill I want to climb or don't want to climb, I'm like, I get to do that because for so long I couldn't walk even around the block. So I love that. I say it's all— words are powerful. Affirmations are powerful. So I think that if you're struggling, if you can just start a morning routine of shifting your mindset with some positive affirmations. Like, I don't know if you saw on Instagram, I just created a new filter. And when on the filter, it says, I am strong. I am resilient. I am a warrior. I am not giving up. And so little things like that. You know, I have signs all over my— in my office, I have, you got this. My business cards say, you got this. I have another sign that says, I am not afraid. I was made for this, by Joan of Arc. So little, little things. And then it helps to have little God winks along the way and a supportive community. I cannot say enough how important it is to have passionate, inspired, loving, kind people around you, especially when you're struggling. I think it's so important to surround yourself with people who, who've got your back. And David, I appreciate you always having my back, and I've got yours. Look at the people you're surrounding yourself with. Look at the support groups you're in. If they're bringing you down, if you don't feel like you're being uplifted— And that goes to And this is for social media too. If you're following people on social media that you don't feel uplifted or they don't want— they don't leave you wanting to do more or be more, or it just doesn't feel right, don't follow them. You know?

Right.

It's so important to really surround yourself, especially when you're struggling with pain every day, around people who are supportive. Just a couple more questions I wanted to ask you. How do you find support? Because I have a lot of people ask me, how do you build a community? How do you find support? Besides, you know, you've really found support with your family, your mom, you've got some friends, but are you with any support groups or anything like that? Who do you go to for support for complex regional pain syndrome?

I keep in touch with you. I follow everything you do. Matter of fact, I got a cowboy hat sitting right over there. I did the book thing. I was gonna have my cowboy hat on because you did the cowboy hat filter, you know, not too long ago.

Yeah.

And I was going to show you the Texas version of that. For me, you know, I'm, I'm a fixer. And I don't think I could join a physical support group because I would want to help every person in there. I would want to make their pain go away. I would want to adopt their suffering and I would want to fix them. So I think that would be tougher on me. But it's good that you know that. No, it sounds selfish.

You know that you've got to take care of yourself and you help so many people already. You do. And it's good to know that about yourself. You have to take care of you and put you first on the list. And that's something that I've had to learn because I I would be doing so many things for other people. And then I was end up in the ER, seriously end up in the ER. So I've had to learn what works and what doesn't work. So that's good. You know that.

One thing that really, you know, you brought up earlier that, that Johnny had told you when you were talking about, you know, that, that pain day where it felt like you couldn't talk and Johnny was like, you know, hey, do you really want to say that? But people being 100% real and saying, I felt like I was going to fail, that to me, that's another connection because it's like, okay, that person is real. And I know he was trying to protect your brain. And I don't mean any disrespect by Johnny. He's, you know, he's a— I'm a huge fan of him just in what he did after your injury. But knowing— again, it goes back to knowing you're not alone.

Mm-hmm.

If I see you and you have a bad day, then I'm like, okay, she's— she really is real. She does have a bad day too, and she's not having to be perfect. So I can connect with people on their— on their bad days. And then I see that in spite of all that bad pain, Here you are storming the world and taking over and marching your way to Oprah's stage one day, which we both know will happen.

Oh my God, you are so awesome. Okay, y'all, I'm— Mark, yes, he said it. You heard it here first. Oprah, here I come.

You need to. You have to. How could she not?

I mean, Oh my goodness.

She'd be doing a disservice to her viewers if she didn't. You know, couldn't.

Oh my gosh, you made my day. Oh, you are so funny. Thank you for saying that. Oh my gosh, I always love talking with you. I want one more thing. What is your— just to finish it off, I always love to ask people what their definition of resilience is. What is your definition of resilience?

It's all in the bounce. You know, you're gonna, you're gonna get knocked down, you're gonna, you're gonna get thrown down at times, but I always tell my kids it's, it's all in the bounce, how you bounce back. And that's what resilience is. It's how you respond, not react. React is an emotion. React is anger, it's frustration, sadness, but how you're going to respond to that situation. We don't have a perfect life. We're never gonna have the perfect life. It's just unattainable. We're gonna stumble. But when you stumble, get back up. And I don't mean get back up and go get on a national stage. I mean, know that that pain's gonna end in just a little bit and take another step. Go take a walk. Go call somebody. Go do something for yourself. But, you know, also listen to what your body, not necessarily your brain, but your body tells you. Know your limits, and then you'll come closer to managing those things. But 100% resilience is— it's all in the balance. It's how you, you handle things. And that goes back to don't give up.

Mm-hmm.

Don't give up. Keep your feet moving, whether it's mentally or it's physically. Keep going. Just don't stop. Everybody, we're not alone. And anybody out there in the pain world that's listening to this, if Amberly and I can do it, then you can do it too. Because we're— and I know there are so many people out there. There are people that I've connected with. And you're right, there is that sense of community. And we've got your back. We know what you're going through. And I cannot show enough love for you in all you do. In my world, you are the CPS flag bearer, torch bearer. You're leading the fight for us all. And you, you know, I tell you this all the time, but you are my hero.

Oh, well, you are mine. I am always blown away by all you do.

And I'm so excited about Your music.

We'll make sure we share that as soon as I can, as soon as I get the okay. But I just want to thank you for being my friend, being in my life, and sharing your experience with CRPS here with us today. And in celebration of awareness that we are getting the word out there.

Absolutely.

Hopefully more treatments. And, and really, I do it to give people hope. And also, if, if someone finds out that they have CRPS soon enough, their chances of remission are so much higher. So anyway, thank you so much for being on, and I'll talk to you soon.

Absolutely. Always an honor. Glad— thank you for having me.

Thank you.

Thanks so much for joining us this week on True Grit and Grace Podcast.

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Bye.