Outsmart Narcissists and Negotiate to Win with Rebecca Zung

Thank you for tuning in to the True Grit and Grace podcast. I'm Amberly Lago, and I'll be sharing inspirational stories of resilience and empowering ideas to elevate your business and your life, ignite your passion, and fuel your purpose. Thank y'all for tuning in to True Grit and Grace. This episode is proudly brought to you by Nootopia, the most powerful nootropics on the market today. And these nootropic stacks are taking the industry by storm because they're highly effective. And each formula is customized for you based on your strengths, weaknesses, and your goals. So you can get exactly what you need. And your customized formula help you really focus intensely. Block out distractions, reduce stress and anxiety, enhance your creativity, Boost your memory and get rid of brain fog, and so much more. And the best part: there's a one-year guarantee, so there's no risk, zero risk to you to try them for yourself. So here's the deal: if you feel like you're not fully maximizing your potential, both personally and professionally, then you owe it to yourself to try Nootopia's formulas. They're a total game changer. Simply go to nootopia.com/amberly. That's N-O-O-T-O-P-I-A dot com forward slash A-M-B-E-R-L-Y, and make sure you. use that special code Amberly so you get your discount. Again, newtopia.com/amberly, and you can find that link in the show notes. And now enjoy the episode. Thank you for tuning in to True Grit and Grace. I am Amberly, and here on the show, you know, I have a lot of stories that where people say inspiring things and sometimes people that have inspiring stories. And it's not often that we have both together, someone who says the most incredibly inspiring things, But also has this story of resilience that is so inspiring. So today I have Rebecca Zung here with us, y'all. She is a narcissism negotiation expert. She has 2 bestselling books. She's known as one of the, well, top lawyers in the country. Um, she's going to talk to us about how to outsmart a narcissist and win. every negotiation and how to negotiate your best life. She has been featured on, I mean, every kind of news outlet on TV. And she has got a YouTube channel with hundreds of thousands of subscribers. So go check her YouTube channel out right now and subscribe. I have been learning so much from her and I'm so honored to have you on the show. So Rebecca, thank you so much for being here.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor.

I've got pages of notes because I listen to you when I'm in the car. I listen to you when I'm at the gym. And I really wish I would have known all that you share, like all these lessons and, and how to negotiate and how to deal with a narcissist. Like when I was married the first time, we have a lot in common. So you got married the first time at age 19. At 23, I had my first child. You already had And then I was a single mom, you were a single mom, but I was married to a narcissist. I didn't even know what that was back then. Everything you describe is like, oh yeah, he was definitely a narcissist. But can you share with the audience, like, what is the definition of a narcissist?

I'm so glad that you asked that question because so many people think, oh, if you say anything good about yourself, oh, that makes somebody a narcissist. Or if somebody is confident in themselves, oh, that person must be a narcissist. It's not that. I want people to feel good about themselves. I want people to feel confident in themselves or say good things about themselves. That does not make you a narcissist. And every person on the planet wants to matter. That just makes you a human being.

Yeah.

I mean, so that doesn't make you a narcissist either. What makes somebody a narcissist is a person who has no sense of inner value. They're just completely insecure. It's scarcity mindset at the extreme. And they have such scarcity mindset that they have no To have any sense of empathy for other people, because they just can't. Because they are just in that scarcity mindset. You know, it's like a person who's just so afraid that they're not going to be able to like have food or or or like they're almost like if I give anything at all, then they won't have. And so that's the mindset that they're in at all times.

Well, I remember, um, when I was going through my divorce and I was so young, this is with my first husband. And oh my goodness, I was thin as a rail. I was probably, I don't know, 20 pounds lighter than I am now. I did not look healthy. Um, and I slowly started to kind of lose myself in this relationship. And I remember he was Cheating on me, I could never do enough. And I remember one day he would always comment on the way that I looked, that I wasn't thin enough, or and I looked at him and I said, "I will never be thin enough, will I?" And he he answered me. He said, "No, you won't." And I was like, "Whoa, okay." But it would escalate, and when I would ask him things or try, he would. I was always in the wrong. He wouldn't take responsibility for anything that he had done. He made me out to be the Crazy one when I would ask him like, "Whose red lipstick is this in your car?" He's like, "Well, that must be yours." I'm like, "No, I don't wear red lipstick." You know, obviously there was another girl in the car, and like, he made me feel crazy. I kind of lost myself. And so, how did you start to get so great at what you do about negotiating with nar? Was it something? Was it in your marriage? Was it growing up? What inspired you to become this expert on dealing with a narcissist?

I think honestly everything in my life, it's been this whole confluence of events that have brought me to this moment. I, I really would never have thought that this is what I was gonna do with my life. For one thing, I mean, I certainly wasn't playing with Barbies as a kid going, hey, Ken must be a narcissist. You know, I mean, like, geez, this is what I wanna do with my life. You know, you know, but, um, I, I do believe that this is what I was meant to do. I do believe— I'm very much a believer in God, and I do believe that God is working through me and that this is what I'm meant to be doing. And, uh, you know, not to get too religious, but I do believe—

You can, because I believe it too. And I believe God speaks through you, and you are— everything that you say, like, I get goosebumps sometimes when I hear you say it, and you say it with such authority and confidence, but not like overly confident. You're just— this is the truth.

That this is like all the pain that I've gone through and everything. I do believe that it's just been— everything has happened because this is where I'm, I'm meant to be standing now at this moment.

Mm-hmm.

And so, you know, I think that everything that I've gone through is because of this moment now. You know, I was bullied as a kid for being, you know, I'm half Asian. And so there was that, right? So, you know, I've had those bullies are narcissists. And so there was, you know, it kind of started back then where I dealt with narcissists. narcissist back when I was 10, 11 years old. And then fast forward into my law practice. And so for 20 years, I was dealing with them on a very up-close level, certainly there in a negotiation setting, clearly. And so I did high net worth divorce. You do, you know, when you do high net worth divorce, you are dealing with them all the time.

Oh, I could only imagine how that must have been when you're— because you have represented thousands of people, billionaires, celebrities. I mean, you name it, you've dealt with it.

It's personal. And when you're dealing with people's money, children, businesses, You see them constantly up close and personal. And I was lecturing on negotiation all over the country. I was the keynote speaker for the American Bar Association and all of that. And honestly, I had one of the top law practices in one of the most affluent communities in the country, Naples, Florida, which is The most millionaires per capita. It's one of only 2 cities in the world that has 2 Ritz-Carltons, which tells you something about the, the amount of money that's in that city.

Right. 2 Ritz-Carltons.

2 Ritz-Carltons. And I had one of the top law practices there. So that just tells you something about that. And I really felt like I had worked through a lot of all my little stuff from, you know, being bullied as a kid. Because I had this big law practice and all of that. Well, a few years ago, I stepped back from that. I merged my practice with 2 other guys. I really decided I was going to focus more on creative things, doing more things. I had written a bestselling book. I was on Extra doing television appearances. I had been in Forbes, Time, Newsweek, Huffington Post, done all these things. So one of the entrepreneurial things that I had done was with this other woman, and this woman turned out to be a covert narcissist. But I didn't know what that was at the time. I'd never heard of such a thing.

Yeah, what is that?

Okay, so this is a person who looks very kind, very sweet. The rest of the world thinks that they are so nice. So nice. So an overt narcissist is more, more of a Donald Trump kind of a personality, you know. And Donald Trump will tell you he's a narcissist. He wrote that in one of his books, I'm a narcissist. Like, they're kind of proud of it in a way.

Yeah, yeah. That reminds me of my— maybe I shouldn't say that, but it reminds me of my ex. Like, he was kind of proud of it.

Yeah, I mean, they're kind of proud of being narcissists. They kind of like But a covert, they're more humble. They want you to think they're good people, humanitarians. They're the first people to show up when somebody is sick. They sit by somebody's bedside at hospice. They want you to think that they're good people, but they're behind the scenes when they choose a target. They're gaslighting. They're super insecure. They're very, very competitive. You know, they're inherently lazy. They attach themselves to people who have a certain amount of prestige or something like that so that they make it look like they're doing something, but they're not. And so—

Well, take us back to gaslighting because there might be some listeners here that are like, what is gaslighting? What does that mean? So explain that.

And that's what happened with me. with this woman. And so, you know, I had started this endeavor and she said, oh, um, you know, she wanted to be a part of it. She said, oh, you know, I could get you all of these contacts. You should put my name on it. If you put my name on it, then I can help you. I have all of these prestigious contacts. I didn't really want to put her name on it, but she convinced me. So I did. Then suddenly she didn't have these contacts.

Mm-hmm.

And then she said that she would do things and then she didn't. And, you know, and then I found myself kind of trying to ask her about things and, you know, and then she would say, oh, I never said that I was going to do that. And She would—

so it makes you think, well, wait a minute, did I imagine that? Am I crazy? Like, yeah, I said that, right? Yeah.

And then she would, you know, say that I knew she was having business meetings with people, and I would say, what happened to the money for that meeting? And she would say, oh, I didn't know how to deposit it in our bank account, so I put it in my bank account. I need to talk to my bookkeeper about how to transfer it into the bank account. And 3 months later, it still wouldn't be transferred, and I would have to try to police her to find out why isn't that money transferred in still.

I am dealing with something like that right now. I cannot believe you are explaining this situation. I swear. I'm dealing with something exactly like that. And I'm like, what do you mean you thought it— I won't get into details, but yeah, it's like that. And it's like, whoa, what is going on here? And, and then I kind of thought to myself, does she think I'm stupid?

Like, right, right.

And then I, then I'm like, how did I get myself in this situation?

Right.

My gut. And you know what, Rebecca? In situations like that, usually my gut is a red— my gut, I always say, will tell me there's something about this person, there's red flags coming up. But then a lot of times I'm like, oh, but they seem so nice, they seem great, they're saying all these things that seem like it's going to be a good deal, or it's going to— And I have got— I, I feel like a lot of times I get thrown situations and it's a reminder from God to say, Amberly, remember, bigger things are coming and you need to trust your gut and rely on your gut. Like, because for so long, because I had bullies, I think a lot of us had bullies growing up. I was sexually abused by my dad. And when I think situations like that happen and they, you know, especially with my dad, and he would say, well, this is what dads are supposed to do. And, and I thought, but this doesn't feel right. So I kind of learned not to trust my own gut. And then as I've gotten older, I'm like, no, your gut never lies. So did you feel like when you met her that your gut was like, uh?

Oh yeah, right away, right away. And, and then, you know, things were, were happening where, you know, I would see her doing PR for the business and suddenly her name was first on it. No. Yeah. And, and it was like my brand and my business.

And it just makes you feel used.

And then all of a sudden my name wasn't even on it at all. And, oh, I forgot, or, oh, you know, something like that. And I would tell people and they would say, oh, but she seems so nice. I'm sure it was inadvertent. I'm sure she just forgot. You know, because she's so nice and, you know, things like that. And, and, you know, it just— after a while, you just start to lose your mind, and you're literally like— you start to get obsessed. Yeah, you just start to get obsessed, and you start to lose yourself.

I was just gonna ask you that. So I think when you're dealing with a narcissist You do. Like, well, I did anyway. I started to lose myself piece by piece. I felt like I was just losing myself. And I'll never forget, I'd lived in California for a while. I got on a plane to go home to see my family. And I got off the plane, my mom said— the look on her face, and she could see the light in me was gone. And she was just like, I mean, she goes— What happened to my Amberly? Like, Amberly, you're gone. What happened? Like, I was just a shadow of myself. And you have a mantra, Rebecca, that, man, when I heard it, I was like, I'm writing that down. I'm putting it on a sticky note on my computer. And I love it. You said, I defend my light with my life. And I'm like, wow, that's powerful, because I feel like a narcissist will start to chip away pieces, make you slowly obsess or feel like you're losing your mind. And so how do you stop that and, and get in charge and get in charge of your mind again? Is it with mantras like that?

Oh yeah. So I had a come-to-Jesus moment. And I know exactly where I was and what was happening. So I was in Hawaii. And it was the summer, it was July of 2019. And it was at the top of the mountain in Haleakala. You get up in the middle, it was like, you get up at like 2 o'clock in the morning to go see the sunrise. Wow. And I'm up there and the sun starts to rise and it's absolutely stunningly beautiful. And I'm there with my husband and my daughter and it's like heaven on earth, gorgeous. And my daughter, who was 17 at the time, she's like, oh, Mom, oh my God, it's beautiful. It's heaven on earth. It's gorgeous. I'm like, yeah, it is. It's— oh my God, it's stunning. And as the sun's rising, all of a sudden What pops into my mind? Freaking narcissist. And at that moment, I thought, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, you don't get to be here.

Yeah.

You don't get to be here with me. It's one thing for me to obsess about it when I'm walking around my house or whatever. But no, you don't get to be here on my vacation with me and my husband and my daughter. And it was like, that was This aha moment for me where I thought, if I'm obsessing about this, then I'm a victim, and I'm not allowing this anymore. I'm not allowing this anymore. I'm done. I'm done being a victim. And I, in that moment, I just decided I'm out of this thing. I got to get out of this thing. And so I just decided I'm finishing my negotiation book. I'm done with this relationship. I'm going to tell her that I'm done. I'm getting out of this relationship and that I'm focusing on a different direction. And—

And that takes courage. I mean, it definitely takes courage to get out of it, whether it's a business relationship or a personal relationship or a marriage. It takes courage to say, I'm done. And usually you have that For me, I was putting up with it, putting up with it until he laid a hand on me. And I was like, oh, I will not have my daughter grow up in an environment where she thinks that's okay. I was like, enough is enough.

I'm done. Right. Right. Um, and I thought, you know, I'll give her enough of a runway. And, you know, and I really thought that I would be able to do it in a way That would be amicable. That would be—

Usually with a narcissist, it's not that way.

No, but it didn't end up to be. I mean, I thought I would be able to give her runway, make it amicable, but of course it didn't end up to be because she was a narcissist. But I came down from that mountain. I decided I'm finishing my negotiation book. And I'll tell you what, I had that book done within a month. And it was negotiate like you matter. I still didn't know that this person was a covert narcissist. Heard the word narcissist, but to me, a narcissist was a male, boastful, braggadocious, you know, whatever. I didn't know this person was a covert narcissist still at that point. But I came down, I was like, I'm no longer a victim. This is it. I'm done. And I'm a victor.

That's what I decided with my life too.

Yeah.

And I mean, once you When I decided— To move forward.

The deciding factor. And so I wrote the book. I sent the book out for testimonials. One of the people I sent it out to was Robert Shapiro. I didn't even know him. And—

He wrote the foreword.

He sends me an email back and says, call me. And I called him and he says, he offered to write the foreword.

Wow.

Like magical things started happening right away. And I was blown away, blown away that he offered to write the foreword. And he had read the whole book already when he called me. He's like, oh yeah, you have a typo on page 56. Like he had written the book, he had read the book. And I was like, okay. And so Then after that, somebody had said to me, you know, she's a covert narcissist. And I was like, what, what is that? And so that was when I started reading books on narcissism and discovered what that was. Only after that, after I had written the book and everything. And that was when I did one video. On how to negotiate with a narcissist. And that was in like January of '20 or something like that, or February.

But now here it is, you've got like 300,000—

Yeah.

Subscribers on YouTube.

And that was like started in March of 2020 because I did one video on how to negotiate with a narcissist.

That shows you how many people have narcissists and they feel controlled and miserable and unhappy with dealing with these narcissists.

Because what happened was I had done so much research on narcissism, and then I started applying it to what I already knew about negotiation, and it all sparked from there. It was like I had discovered penicillin. Seriously. Yeah.

Well, I wish I would have known these things. Seriously, especially when I was going through my divorce, which was—

Yeah. Serious.

My divorce was up there as hard or harder than me getting hit by an SUV while on my motorcycle and going through 34 surgeries. It was one of the hardest things I've ever been through because I was dealing with a narcissist, and he— it, it was like he had no empathy. He just was out to get me. So For somebody out there that has— and we all have them somewhere in our life, whether it's a friend or relationship, business, marriage— how do you deal with a narcissist? Like, the best way, especially when they're trying to tear you down, how do you deal with them?

Yeah, and see, that's— I'm glad you asked that because I can tell you that even after 20 years of practicing law I never really was dealing with a narcissist in the right way as a lawyer. And I can tell you that most lawyers don't. And now that I've been doing all these videos, people are like, oh, send me to a lawyer that understands narcissism. Probably no lawyers understand narcissism. I only do now because I started understanding the personality type by You know, doing all this research. So the thing that people have to understand is that they're driven by one thing, and that's narcissistic supply. That's it. So you can't negotiate with them the same way that you do reasonable people who are motivated by Lots of different things. I mean, reasonable people might be motivated by doing what's right for their children.

Exactly.

Or, you know, or maybe it's, I want to, you know, live in a different house. Or maybe it's, I want to move on with my life. Or maybe it's, you know—

Or just doing the right thing.

Or that people have Lots of different motivations. Narcissists are only driven by supply, which is, you know, feeding that black hole inside.

Yes, that black hole that can never be filled.

That can never be filled. That is the only thing that drives them. And if you don't understand that, you will never get anywhere. You will never get anywhere.

It's like never enough. Like, you can— and, you know, I, I used to think, well, maybe I can make this better. Maybe I can be the right person. Maybe I can— you know, I would try to mold myself into what he wanted.

Or— and, you know, it was about you.

It wasn't about me at all. It was like, it was just never Enough for me. I don't talk with him anymore because my daughter's 26. She's grown. I mean, and when she gets married someday, if she gets married, I'm sure I'll talk to him. But the last time I had really— I actually blocked him. I— that's how I dealt with it. I was just like, I—

I mean, I did with the narcissist business partner. I ended up having to. I had to.

Yeah, I got an awful text on Mother's Day, and I thought, kind of like you sitting on top of the mountain and you see this beautiful view, I remember where I was. I was at the barn with my daughter, and he sent me a horrible text, and I was like, no, no, no, you do not get to ruin my Mother's Day. I will not allow it. And my husband now was like, block him. And I was like, yeah. Ooh, okay. You know, there are different levels of narcissists.

There are different levels of narcissists. I mean, I do believe that it is a spectrum for sure. I do.

Well, well, you, you have, I mean, such confidence when you speak and do your videos. And I think that that's one of the reasons you're highly successful and sought after on YouTube is because you have this. light about you and this confidence and this knowing in such a good way. I mean this in like the best way. And I wondered, like, do you have to work on building your confidence? How did you? Because I'm kind of picturing how I was when I went through my divorce and I was young and I was a single mom. And I'm thinking, wow, y'all, Rebecca was like a single mom that put herself through college. Became this successful lawyer, was in the financial industry, was a lawyer again. I mean, she has built herself up from— she didn't have like a ton of money and people supporting her along the way. She built herself up.

So— Oh my God, I still have to constantly— I always joke that I can never leave my thoughts unattended.

I love that. That is powerful. Like, I, I think that's true because I, I feel like I have this bully that lives in my head Oh yeah. And I gotta keep that thing in a cage or it wants to come out. And so that's kind of when you said that.

So like, go like right, right to like the bad neighborhood, you know? I mean, if you don't let them, I mean, they'll go wandering right off into the ghetto.

So how do you kind of build your confidence? How do you get that, that inner voice or that bully in your head from going into the wrong neighborhood? And stay in the right place.

Just, you know, first thing in the morning, I'm listening to a good podcast. I'm listening to a good audiobook. I'm listening to a really good book right now. A friend of mine recommended it. I can't believe I never knew about it before. Have you ever read the book The Four Agreements?

It's on my bookshelf over here. It's probably the— it's great, isn't it?

Same author, but it's called Voice of Knowledge.

Oh, I don't know that one.

Oh my God, it is so good. So I'm listening to the audiobook. It's, it's read by Peter Coyote. It's called Voice of Knowledge. So good.

I've got to read that.

So good. Yes. So I'm listening to that right now, and one of the chapters is all about You know, how we talk about our own lives, our own stories, staying out of our own stories. So good.

That is awesome. That's awesome. I do the same, you know. I feel like we can have confidence just knocked— I can have it knocked right out of me, and I have to do things to build it back up again. And, and the, the little things, you know, like even going to the gym gives me Just a boost of feel-good confidence. Doing push-ups before I go on stage to speak gives me a boost of just feel-good confidence. But I feel like it's something that I continually have to work on. Um, and I feel like with every next level up, it's another layer that you need, you know, you have to work on. But I feel like when I say something to my best friend, I'll say, Gosh, I need to work on healthy boundaries. I will get tested left and right with having to work on some setting up some healthy boundaries, like with relationships or just healthy boundaries, like with your time, whether that be with friends or family or business or whatever. How would you suggest someone really kind of work on boundaries, especially if they're dealing with a narcissist?

Definitely having one form of communication. I mean, that is one thing that I tell people all the time, especially when you're dealing with a narcissist, is having one form of communication because obviously they're gonna try to use 50 different forms to make your life miserable.

That's so good. Like really. But that's not, that's for anything. Like I had to make the decision and I'm sure With you, you probably have people trying to reach you through DMs, through comments on YouTube, through Messenger, through email, through all these different things. And I'll never—

All of them go into Zendesk at this point. They all converge into one place. And I have 3 VAs at this point, and like their full-time job at this point is answering all my messages, because we literally get hundreds at this point. And I do make sure that everybody gets a personalized response, because people in my world are dealing with trauma.

Mm-hmm.

And so I want everybody to get a personalized response. And the only way that they're going to be able to do that is because, you know, we make sure that All my DMs and all my messages go into one place at this point. So that's how I do it.

That's awesome. So what is that called? Cuz mine are all over my, my, I've got messages.

That's Zendesk. I have Zendesk. All my DMs and everything from all my places go into one, one place.

That is awesome. But I think it's great too, that when you have someone that is trying to reach you, whether they're a narcissist or not, and they're maybe not nice, And they're trying to reach you when you're not answering the phone, then they're sending you a text. And when you're not answering the text, they're sending you a note on Messenger. To really teach them how to treat you and set that boundary by only answering in one spot.

Right. And so I do tell people, uh, email or a court-approved app if you have children. Oh, that's smart. So email or court-approved app, because those are the 2 best trial exhibits. So if you end up needing to go to trial, those, uh, you know, have a time and date stamp, and they are the least likely to be able to be manipulated. So texts can be manipulated, you know, they can, you know, people can like delete them and things like that. And they're hard to save sometimes. And, you know, the phone companies don't always save text messages and they're hard to print out and, you know, they can get kind of cumbersome. But emails are hard to manipulate and same with court-approved apps. So those are the 2 that I tell people to use, and especially court-approved apps because you can get a court order for them if you have children. And then if they don't use them, you can go and you can get a motion for contempt and that sort of thing. So that's what I tell people to use.

Well, I know for me it was very emotional and it would trigger me in so many ways when I was dealing— when I have dealt with narcissists in my life. How do you respond to an email or something that you get that is just 10 pages long and they're attacking you at every angle. How do you respond? Should you respond or not respond at all?

Yes. So one of the things I tell people is, first of all, stop defending yourself.

Yeah, it makes you want to defend yourself, and it's like, I don't want to defend myself.

I tell people that all the time. Stop defending yourself. Because when you defend yourself, it's almost like you're agreeing there's an issue. And you don't need to defend yourself. You know, don't explain, don't justify, don't allow yourself to be triggered. Don't get— don't allow yourself to get emotional. I mean, you can explain sometimes if you even need to do that. But I wouldn't allow yourself to get pulled into that. It gives them supply, number one.

I think that's what they're going for. They're trying to get you all emotional and upset.

That's what they want. Most of the time they send this long whole thing just to trigger you. They know how to trigger you. So most of the time, really, there's like one or two things in there that you have to respond to. Like maybe it's, what time should we meet to exchange Johnny or whatever it is? So most of the time, here's a really great way to respond. You can just say, I am in receipt of your email. I deny your allegations and we can meet at 3:00 PM on Wednesday at Starbucks.

That's awesome. Yep. And you know what, I always think it's good to pause before because I've been triggered before and I will actually say, I just need a moment. I just need to pause and take a moment to process this a little bit so I can respond in a way that's not going to be all emotional.

And right, but you know, you can just respond in like that 3-sentence way like that.

That is awesome. So you have been nicknamed the Narc Slayer. When did you get that nickname? I love that.

Well, SLAY is my brand.

Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit about that SLAY or negotiation too? I mean, I want people to grab your courses and everything, but I'd love to know a little bit more about that.

Yeah. So SLAY stands for strategy, leverage, anticipate, and focus on you. So you have to have strategy, and that's absolutely one of the most important things. Just have a vision, have a plan. You know, you just— so many times you just spend so much time on the defensive, you feel like you're a turtle on your back all the time, that, you know, you almost forget what is it that I want, where is it that I want to go. Honest to God, I've talked to people so many times that they've spent so many years on the defensive that when I ask them what they want, they honestly can't even articulate it for me because they've forgotten to even think about that. And so strategy, where is it you want to go? And then outline the steps on how you're going to get there. So that's strategy. Leverage. Leverage has to be taking into account 2 things, 2 different types of supply when you're thinking about narcissism. narcissists, what I call diamond-level supply and coal-level supply. Diamond-level supply is how a narcissist looks. That's their protect at all measures. They will do whatever they have to do to protect their diamond-level supply, how they look.

Oh.

They will protect and defend that at any cost. But then there's the coal-level supply, which is that unseen kind of what I call, it's the dark underbelly of supply, which is manipulating you, jerking you around, making you squirm. Most people think all narcissists want to do is win, but they forget about coal-level supply, which is jerking you around. And that's why these cases go on for years and years and years. And that's why They cost hundreds of thousands of dollars because they also enjoy jerking you around.

Oh yes.

Yes. And so that's why, unless you can figure out what form of supply is gonna be more important for them to keep than the supply that they get from jerking you around and threaten that source of supply, then they will never, ever, ever leave you alone. Ever. And so you have to figure out how to ethically manipulate the manipulator and put pressure on that and threaten that source of supply, or you will never, ever, ever. That's your leverage. And you have to figure out a strategy to threaten that source of supply.

That is so freaking good. Keep going. Keep going. I'm just like sitting here going—

Yeah. That's how you negotiate with narcissists. And then you have to spring it on them at just the right moment. You cannot do it— you have to have a strategy for how you're going to spring it on them, and you can't tell them until the last possible second. Anticipate how they're going to behave and be 2 steps ahead of them. In my course, I teach people about powerful body language, reading their body language, clothing colors, psychology, all kinds of things. I mean, So much. I pack in NLP. I teach them like weak-ass body language, you know, like how you're talking. So much stuff in there. And then focus on you. Most of the time people are just like thinking about their stuff. What about what they did, what they did, what they did? If you don't focus on you, I always tell people, The best football teams, if all they have is a good defense, nobody's scoring any points. So you have to focus on your case and your position, but you also have to have a powerful mindset. 99% of winning is having a powerful mindset. If you sit around and you go, the judges are skewed, the mediators are skewed, all this other stuff, Then you're just never ever going to win. You have to believe 100% that you can win. You have the best lawyer, whatever. If you don't 100% believe that you are going to win, you will never win, ever. So you have to 100% believe that you can do it. And so, you know, a lot of what I teach is also about believing that you can win as well.

And that's so powerful. I believe that too, that it starts in your mindset.

You have to believe it, especially when you're dealing with narcissists. You have to, you have to. You can have the best lawyers, the best whatever, but if you don't 100% believe it, nobody can help you. It starts with you.

Listen, I had my ex's lawyer would call and bully me. He would have his lawyer call and bully me, and I could hear him in the background. And I would be at work and get a call, and it would just— it would shake me up a bit. And so I did everything I could to work on my mindset, to— not just my mindset, but I also started doing Krav Maga, which is Israeli self-defense. I started doing Muay Thai kickboxing. I started doing regular boxing. So I did everything I possibly could to feel stronger. Where can they find your courses? Because I know so many people that want to get healthier relationships. They want to be able to negotiate their way back into a better life, a fulfilling life, and feel that freedom. When you feel like you're constantly dealing with someone who's a narcissist, you feel smothered. Y'all go check out her YouTube because you're going to learn so much. Just go on YouTube and Google Rebecca Zung or rebeccazung.com, but tell everybody where they can get your courses. And then you also have a freebie for us too.

slayernegotiation.com is my course. And then breakingfreefromdivorce.com. I have some masterclasses there as well. But my freebie is at winmynegotiation.com. I have a free Crush My Negotiation prep worksheet. It's a 15-page free ebook. And it's just a way for people to get started.

Okay. And what was that again? Tell me again.

winmynegotiation.com is—

Okay. So you guys, if you're listening, go to the show notes and you'll be able to find that link in the show notes, because I want you to get this from her and learn because she's brilliant. Everything that she has said, her experience, everything is just amazing. So yeah, go and check out her freebie. That is so generous of you to offer this 15-page download. You know, a lot of people offer like a 1-page PDF, but you're like, nope, here is the 15-page download for you. And then what exactly do they get when they download that?

It's a Crush My Negotiation prep worksheet. It's a way to get started, and it's got all kinds of negotiation prep in it. And it's a worksheet, but it also has tons of information in it as well. And the last page of it also offers a link for a free webinar, a free workshop.

Oh my goodness. Yeah, you are like really amazing at all that you do and all the content that you put out there on YouTube. How often are you uploading YouTube videos?

5 days a week.

5 days a week?

Yeah. Yeah.

Oh my goodness, that is incredible. Have you always done that, 5 days a week?

Well, for the last probably year and a half. Maybe something like that. Yeah.

Wow, that is incredible. And you are on some of the biggest podcasts out there, plus having your own podcast. And tell us, the best way for people to just start following you is probably YouTube, but you're also on Instagram. And where can they buy your books?

Amazon. Both of my books are on Amazon. I just signed a book deal. So— Oh, you did?

I did.

That is amazing. Yeah, so my publisher wants that to be written by this year, so—

Wow, that is huge. Congratulations.

Thank you.

That is amazing. Congratulations. Wow, you're amazing. Well, I just appreciate you coming to be on the show. I've loved this conversation. So you guys, if a particular part of this episode stuck out to you, take a screenshot. If you're listening to, you know, Spotify or Apple, or if you're watching on YouTube, take a screenshot and just tag us on Instagram @AmberlyLagoMotivation and Rebecca Zung so we can see it. I'll post it in my story when I see it. I just want her to know and feel the love for all that you've shared, your wisdom. I just appreciate you so much. And I'm hoping I get to see you in Dallas because you're coming out here Y'all, she speaks all over the place, but she's actually going to be here in Dallas speaking. So I'm hoping that I'll actually get to see you in person and I'll be the loudest one in the audience. So thank you so much for being here.

Thank you. This was so fun.

Thank you.