Preventing Burnout & Elevating Emotional Intelligence with Zach White

Thank you for tuning in to the True Grit and Grace podcast. I'm Amberly Lago, and I'll be sharing inspirational stories of resilience and empowering ideas to elevate your business and your life, ignite your passion, and fuel your purpose. Thank y'all so much for tuning in to True Grit and Grace. I'm Amberly, and I have a very special guest on today, and we're going to be talking about some really important topics, some of my favorite topics, like how do you prevent burnout? How do you uplevel your emotional intelligence and how to accelerate your career and love your life? I have the amazing Zach White with us today, and he's got a lifestyle engineering blueprint, and it will really help you build your career. And balance your life. He's a game-changing career coach for driven engineers, and he has worked with hundreds of leaders from top companies worldwide to achieve breakthrough career success while avoiding burnout. He also has a top podcast called The Happy Engineer, and I'm so excited I get to be a guest on his show. And he is the founder and CEO, um, At Oasis of Courage. So, Zach, thank you so much for being on the show. Welcome to True Grit and Grace.

I'm so happy to be here, Amberly, and I can't wait to have you on the Happy Engineer podcast. You bring so much that our audience needs to hear as well. So that's going to be amazing to have you on. I hope everybody from your show comes over and listens to that episode to get to know you better as well.

Well, thank you. Your show is amazing. I feel honored to get to be on it. I'm going to listen to one of your episodes you just released about burnout, and I I want to dig into your story a little bit because you were climbing the corporate ladder, working 80 hours a week. And can you take us to the point where you kind of felt stuck or hit a rock bottom or thought to yourself, something has got to change. This life has got to be better than this because maybe it was out of balance. Maybe you were burnt out. Can you take us back to that point? And what was that defining moment that changed everything for you?

Absolutely. Well, I graduated from Purdue University with my mechanical engineering degree, and for anyone who knows an engineer, we are in some ways a special breed. I get that. I know that. And but I loved engineering. I really did. And Amberly, the context that's important to understand, and I think this is not just engineers who struggle with this, is you come out of college, you get that first job, and I only had one strategy for success in my life, and that was to work harder and get smarter. And, you know, that worked my whole life, right? You just go to school.

Yeah.

If your grades aren't where you want them, study a little more, put in some time, work harder. You know, my mom taught me to make sure that I always did my homework before I played video games. Yeah, I learned these basic ideas of what success takes. Just sit and do the work. And you look around at the company and everyone else's Putting in these crazy hours. So that must be the way to succeed. And you pick up these beliefs in your life about what it means to be successful and also what success is. It's promotions, it's paychecks, it's, you know, this life that's on the COVID of a magazine somewhere. And so I got into my career and I just started pursuing that, doing everything that I knew how to do. I got married right out of college and was building that, that dream life the best way that I knew how. Unfortunately, that strategy, get smarter, work harder, trying to solve every problem with my IQ and putting in the time, you know, really grinding it out. Well, that only takes you so far. And that one-dimensional approach to life led me to a point where I was in Tennessee on a work trip. I was in the factory. I worked at Whirlpool Corporation. I was designing appliances for the consumer market. I was there. It was a crazy week. To your point, I probably got up, you know, at 6 o'clock in the morning, went straight to the factory, left the factory at 8 or 9 at night the whole week. It was a crazy time. And while it was extremely challenging, Amberly, the other thing is part of me did enjoy it because I thought that this was what it takes. I had this sense of pride that I was willing to sacrifice, you know, parts of my life to go be somebody at work. And I got back from that trip expecting to come home to my wife and unwind for the weekend. And instead, I walked into an empty house.

Oh, wow.

And there was a note on the kitchen table that said, this isn't working. And I think we need to get divorced. And that was the moment where my entire model and paradigm and vision of what I thought was true about my life completely collapsed. You know, the house of cards fell down and I fell down. I mean, I hit the floor and just bawled my eyes out for the first time. Probably an emotional bottle up that needed to release for a long time, Amberly. And that was that moment where I realized this isn't, this isn't working. This, like, my, my whole idea of what I need to do to be successful is broken. And unfortunately, I did end up divorced, depressed. embarrassed. Just like, how did I end up here? I was the valedictorian of my high school. I was the guy who got, you know, straight A's in college and crushing it in everything. And everybody told me I was going to be so successful. And here I am. I would have traded it all to just go back and try again. And that was where burnout and rock bottom happened for me.

Wow. Well, you know, I relate so much to what you have shared because that's how I grew up. Like, if I wanted something, I just had to work hard for it. And I would work and work and work and grind and grind. And that's the grit part of, you know, true grit and grace. But I had to learn to give myself grace. So how did you start to give yourself grace and go, wait, this is not working. I've got to do something differently or different because you were working 80 hours a week. Did you have a lot of fear about, well, if I don't work this hard, then I'm not going to have success, uh, the, the bills won't get paid? And also, where do you think— oh, so this 2-part question, I guess. Where do you think that that came from? Where you were just— do you feel like you had to prove yourself? Do you feel like there was a time in your life where you felt like you had to be valedictorian and get the straight A's in order to like help with your self-worth? Where do you think it came from?

There's a lot to unpack. So first thing, really quick, I think it's important people understand, while I did work long, hard hours, it wasn't every single week that I was there 80 hours. But here's what is true, Amberly. Whether I was physically at the office or not, my mind was always at the office. And I think one of the things I—

Oh, that is so important to share.

Struggled. Yeah. Like, just people get that context, burnout and these things, you might say, oh, I don't work that many hours, or I'm not in that place. I'm not going through what Zach went through. Well, one of those little symptoms that was there years before rock bottom is that I was never really present in my marriage, with my family, with these things. I was seeking success with my energy and my mind all the time. And so I think that's, that's a really important little piece of context. But to your, maybe the second question first, like how did that get started? And then, you know, how do you recover? What, what created the turnaround? I do think it was simply a misunderstanding of a well-intended teaching that started in my childhood. My mom always shared with me, first of all, Zach, school is your job. That was the thing she told me when I was young. I was not allowed to have summer jobs or Or a job during school at all unless I was doing well in school. We highly valued academics in my household, and that was a great thing. I think education and learning and doing well in school is super important. But the thing that she would say to me is, Zachary, I don't care whether or not you get straight A's. What I care about is that you're always doing your best. And I know, and I believe in you, that your best is straight A's. And so if you're not getting straight A's, then it's, you know, I'm, I'm believing it's because you're not actually doing your best. You know, you're, you're messing around, you're not studying hard, you, you're wasting your time. You know, so if, if you manage your time, if you apply yourself, you are capable of straight A's. You're very intelligent. And so what was meant extremely positively, I took on as an identity that I am Very intelligent, and therefore I will always do well in these academic domains. And if I'm not doing well, it's because I'm not managing myself or working hard enough.

Hmm.

Again, like on the surface seems really innocent, and in school it was fine because the truth is I didn't have to work 80 hours a week to get straight A's. I actually was blessed, very intelligent. I didn't have trouble in school. College got a little rocky at moments, but You know, I always got through, but I, I let that singular understanding of my identity is I'm smart. Therefore, in every situation, I need to be seen as smart. And if I ever get into a place where I don't know what to do or things aren't going my way, or I'm, I might fail, that can't happen, Amberly. That like failure's not an option.

Yeah.

Because a, a B means that I didn't work hard enough. I always need to get that A. I didn't extend grace to myself at all. So again, it's no discredit to my mom. My mom loves me. She raised me so well. But I just, as a kid, took that on and let that belief drive my life in one dimension, in one direction. And it was a one-way street toward burnout. And I didn't know that until it was too late. So that's where it began.

Yeah. Yeah, I can relate. I can relate to that. And just for the listeners, like, burnout might look different for others. Uh, you know, it might be different for me than it is for you. For you, you were working all these hours and you said not in, in the present. So your mind was always thinking of work.

Yeah.

I've been guilty of that where I love what I do. And so I had to like take some some hints and cues from my husband who was like, he doesn't necessarily care about some of the things that I work on, like the self-development stuff and speaking gigs and or podcast. He doesn't— I don't even think he listens to my podcast. He's just not that— he's not into it. But I get it. But he was a guest on the show once. I had to really bribe him for that.

That's awesome.

What is— what do you think? What is your definition of burnout?

Burnout begins the moment that you're burning energy faster than you're filling the tank.

Oh, so good.

People think of burnout as the rock bottom moment when you run out of gas. And that's the one that gets all the airtime on social media is when you really hit these places with challenging consequences. You have a health issue, you know, you get into some sort of chronic pain or disease, you get fired, you completely crash in your ability to show up to your own life and you end up depressed and anxious and fill in the blank, you know, angry. And yeah, those are burnout. But burnout can also be you just celebrate, I made it through the week. Thank God it's Friday. My life will never be better than this. At least it's not worse. You just resign yourself to this mediocre Default existence. Burnout can be resentment that you feel underpaid, but you don't feel like you can do anything about it. You know, burnout shows up in so many ways. It can be in a relationship. You know, I, I've given up on my spouse, but I'm staying in this unhappy relationship. Like, there's a lot of things that can happen that are symptoms or the, the manifestation of burnout in your life. But what I want people to know And what I wish I had known years before I hit rock bottom is that burnout is not just the flaming, glorious crash moment. Burnout begins the moment that you're burning fuel faster than you're filling the tank. And you could be on that road right now and not noticing it because you're still in the air. And again, it's burnout, not crash.

Yeah.

Crash is the part we want to do everything to avoid. Burning out is simply that downward trajectory. And that's a really important distinction to make because you got to ask yourself, not have I hit rock bottom? That's the wrong question. It's how is my life today versus 90 days ago? Am I building energy? Am I moving toward my vision? Am I experiencing deeper fulfillment, deeper meaning and joy and love? in my relationships and in my work? And am I moving toward the life of my dreams, or is it flat or down? And if it's either of those, we need to ask, well, what am I doing to create that, that shift? Otherwise, you know, flat may seem okay to you, but if you're flat, you're losing ground because the world isn't staying flat. The world around you wants to grow. So if you're flat, you're down in my book. And that's, that's the trajectory mindset. It's like, am I going down or am I going up? If I'm going down, I'm burning out. It's that simple.

Oh, that's so good how you explain things. Well, what did you do when you came home? Your wife was like, this is not working out. You were getting a divorce. How did you get through that moment? Did you go to therapy? How did you learn to just recover from the way you— where you were headed?

I did hire a therapist immediately, started digging into my own grief and emotion and all the stuff that I was unwilling to look at for my entire adult life. I hired a coach, I asked for help in how to build my career and do it the right way. I started reaching out to everybody I knew who was a past mentor or had anything to offer in the space. I just constantly started seeking new answers. Reconnecting with faith, with family, etc. But Amberly, it really boils down to a couple of key things. And no matter where you're at on the journey of burnout, if you just started going down, or if you're like I was grinding your face against rock bottom, you know, getting caught up any place, I think it begins with a couple of key things. The first one is to start telling the truth. That's so powerful. And to someone else. You know, working with a therapist was powerful because I had someone who I could trust to tell the whole story to, someone that I could tell the truth to. But Amberly, I also called my sister and my mom, my other sister, and, and all the people I loved, and I, I told them what was going on. And it was the first time ever that they knew I even had anything not working in my life or in my marriage. I had been keeping it a secret. And the truth is, my marriage was on the rocks well before she asked me to get divorced. And if I had been honest with myself, I would have known that. But I was pretending that everything was okay. I was believing that I could figure it out on my own. And isolation is the enemy of excellence. So, you know, there's a quote Or a scripture in the Bible that talks about how the devil roams around like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. And think about that picture of a lion. You know, they don't go after the gazelle that's in the middle of the herd. They go after that sickly gazelle that's at the edge of the herd, the one that's all alone. That's who they go after. And if you isolate yourself in your pain and in your trauma and in your challenges of life, and you don't tell the truth to yourself and to others and invite people in and ask for help, you're going to get taken out. So number one thing, tell the truth to yourself and to others. Ask for help. That was the biggest shift in my life. And honestly, you could probably just stop right there. And like, if you'll do that, you're going to see, you know, tremendous transformation begin. But the second thing then Was a shift in my focus from just going after this vision of success, and I started turning the lens inward and just said, the most important thing is I need to work on myself. Yeah, personal development, connecting with my faith, asking for these resources. Like, you know, these problems have been solved before, Amberly.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, my, my coach and my therapist, you know, this is the first time they've had somebody say, My career is burning me out and I'm getting divorced. Like, these are problems a lot of people have faced, and the answers and the solutions are out there. People like yourself providing these incredible resources on a podcast. Like, I got really hungry for a new way of being, and it wasn't so much about the external— I need the next promotion, I need the bigger paycheck. I turn that lens inward and just say, who do I need to become in my emotions, in my approach to life? All these. That shift was, was huge. Because as an engineer, I really got focused on the outer world all the time. And I had to turn that around, start focusing on my inner world of transformation. It's an inside-out life that we're living. We're spiritual beings in a physical experience. And I had it backwards my whole life. And so that was huge.

Oh, that is so powerful. And, and yeah, you know, I was guilty for a long time. I stuffed down so much. Um, I did not process emotions or traumas that had happened and stuffed it down, stuffed it down, and then started isolating. It was like the physical pain led to emotional pain, which led me to addiction. And I think that that's what happens with a lot of people when they don't, um, when they're not honest, when they don't open up, when they, you know, there's a saying, you're only as sick as your secrets. And, um, in recovery, so I got sober in 2016, and in recovery, one of the first things they, you, I learned, um, in a 12-step meeting was stay in the middle, like stay in the middle of meeting. And so your analogy of like, if you're on the outside getting a little lonely over here, or you're going to be taken out is so true. And I think that when, you know, we don't, when we just stuff down, stuff down, we, we aren't radically honest with ourselves. Addiction can be anything from becoming a workaholic to porn to overeating, shopping too much, dating too much. And so I think that that is powerful, that all of you listening can really take a moment to take a good hard look at yourself. And how are you really feeling? What's going on in your world? How can You get radically honest with yourself. And one of the things that I love so much, Zach, that you talk about a lot is the importance of a mentor, a coach, therapy, all those things. Because like you said, sometimes when we're going through something really hard, we think, oh, I'm the only one, that nobody understands my pain or what I'm going through. And I think that whether you're an engineer or any kind of entrepreneur, sometimes it can be lonely. And if we just did reach out and get the help that we need, either through a therapist, coach, mentor, mastermind, is so important. But what would you suggest for people to do who are seeking a good coach? Because there's a lot, there are a lot of people out there that say, oh yeah, I'm a coach. What would you suggest for people to do to find It's an important question, Amberly, because I am a coach.

And so I hate to say this about the industry, but there are a lot of really bad coaches.

Oh, I know.

They have no business calling themselves coaches. And even the term coach is so watered down now that it's— it is hard. And so many people I've spoken to, even in engineering, are incredibly skeptical about working with me and our organization because they've been burned. They've spent a lot of money and had, you know, coaches who provided no real value to them. So super important question. Here's, here's the first thing. Coaching is not about someone coming in and rescuing you. It's not about somebody who's gonna just tell you everything that you need to do. And here's the ABCs of all of your life. And if you'll just follow my super secret recipe, you're going to be fine. Yes, there's training programs that might teach you the ABC steps of how to be successful marketing on Instagram or how to be successful in your finances, in your business. And those are great things. And a lot of times those people call themselves coaches as well, which is part of the confusion. Here's a finance coach.

Well, Okay.

Be really clear. There's 2 different things that you need. You need the knowledge, the how-to, and you need the coach, the person who's gonna help guide, challenge, hold you accountable, and who believes in you as being healthy, whole, complete, and able to become everything you need to become to accomplish your biggest dreams. And if you become dependent on your coach to rescue you, then that's the wrong kind of relationship. So, as I evaluate a coach, I'm, I'm Feeling that energy of somebody who's here to put wind in my sails and who's believing in me and who's going to challenge me and ask me the hard questions and let me wrestle with growth within myself. And yeah, if they can provide some great knowledge and great tools, and of course, I want that also. But the moment I start to feel like somebody's coming in saying, hey, I'm I'm the hero of your story. Oof. Like, run the other way. Run the other way. That, that is not the energy of a great coach. So that's number one. And then number two, frankly, is at this point there's so many coaches out there. Take your time and go find someone with an incredible track record. You know, put the, put the challenge onto the new coaches to go create their results first, and then you go work with the seasoned coach. And for all the new coaches out there, I love you. I've been there. And so, We can talk separately about how to go build those testimonials and results, but that's on us as the coaches to go prove to ourselves and to the world that we know exactly how to help guide. But if you're somebody looking for a coach, go find someone who's got the results. There's so many amazing coaches to work with. Don't go with somebody who can't show you, hey, here's Sally, who I helped transform from A to B. Here's Zach, who I helped recover from burnout. And build this incredible career in business, go find somebody who has results.

That's so important. Yeah. Because there are a lot of people out there that claim to be this top coach and they charge thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars. I mean, it's not— and they might be really good at selling you the program, but I mean, I've paid a lot of money for a coach before who I didn't do my homework. I just kind of believed what they said. And I was very surprised when I got into the program. Like, wait a minute, what is going on? So after that, it was a very expensive lesson for me, but I do my homework and I check in and go, okay, what results does this person really have and how can they help me? That's so important. Um, how long did it take for you to really start to transform your life to where you weren't You know, completely consumed with work, work, work all the time.

One of the perks of hitting rock bottom is you're willing to change quickly because life's not working.

Yeah. There's a gift in desperation.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly. While I would never wish for someone to go through what I went through or whatever life challenge you might be facing, you know, if you're out there listening right now and you have a totally different story, We love you. We understand, like, everybody's story is unique. But the, the thing is, when you're really in it, when you hit that rock bottom and you're desperate, you're willing to change fast. And so the truth is, Amberly, it took longer to heal than to change, if that makes sense. So the grief, the, the pain of facing my own stuff and realizing that I didn't have it all together. You know, there's a saying that, you know, a bad day for your ego is a good day for your soul. And I was in that place, you know, my ego was getting hammered, like, oh, I'm not as smart as I think I am. I don't have it all put together like I thought I did. I'm not perfect. In fact, I'm quite broken. That was the slower process of just really healing my heart. And Forgiving myself for having gotten into that place. You know, I felt a lot of shame about my life. You know, I got divorced, Amberly. That's the last thing I ever wanted. You know, quick little aside here. The reason that moment really, really, really hurt is because when I was 13, the day after Christmas, my mom came home to our house with all 3 of us kids in the house. But my dad was gone. And she walked up to her bedroom to a note that he wanted to leave our family. And my parents got divorced. And so I had this wound from childhood that came back as an adult, because I, you know, you can imagine this embarrassment, like the thing that hurt me most as a kid that I said I would never do. I would never get divorced because I hated divorce because my dad I mean, I had my story about why it was the worst thing in the world, and then it happened to me. That part took a lot of time.

Yeah.

To change the way that I showed up at work, to start drawing a new boundary about, hey, I'm out of here, like, it's quitting time, and I need to go focus on my personal development and my growth and my faith and my family. That was relatively easy to do because I was hungry for a different life. And so, I think it's important to recognize that transformation is 2 things. It's the breakthrough. That's what happened when I said, I'm no longer going to do it this way. I'm going to do it a new way. I'm not working 80 hours. I'm going to work 40 or 45 hours and go home and focus on myself. That was a breakthrough for me. It was a completely new way of being that was impossible for me before, and it was possible for me now. That was the first piece. But transformation also requires repetition and leaning in and staying committed to that new lifestyle over time. And that's where that healing and inner work really was important, because it's simple to do it once when you're fired up or you're motivated.

Yeah.

You come back from the conference or you go through the desperate event. It's hard to do it 6 months later and a year later. And permanently.

Oh, that's so important to share. It is about being consistent. And, you know, it, for me, I remember, and you talk about shame. I had so much shame because I thought I will never— I was a hard worker and successful and was always focused on my career. And then when I was stuck in a hospital bed, and I couldn't run from my feelings, And then couldn't get out of pain. And I started drinking to numb out my pain. And I thought, oh my gosh, how did a good girl like me end up here? I had so much shame because I promised myself I would never become addicted to anything like that. You know what I mean?

Yeah.

And so I had so much shame. How— and shame is so heavy. How did you process the shame? And start to heal from the shame? I mean, you talked about forgiveness. But how did you start to let go of that? Yeah.

It begins with bringing it into the light. And, you know, shame is one of those things we keep in those deep, dark closets of our heart. We don't want to pull it out because it just sucks. It hurts. There's nothing fun at all about holding your shame out in front of you consciously in the light, looking at it for what it is, and, and being willing to share it with someone like we've talked about, and talk about it with your therapist, or to, you know, I say be fully known with the people I love to say like, hey, here's something I'm ashamed of this. And that's not fun to talk about, especially because you've got Brené Brown and all these people saying shame is, is, you know, forget shame, we don't need to live in shame. So like, We almost shame our shame, right? It's like, I'm ashamed that I have shame.

Yeah.

So it's a very strange catch-22 we find ourselves in. And what we tend to do is keep it hidden away in those deep, dark places. So if you want to heal from shame, we need to bring it into the light. Because once you actually see it for what it is, it starts to lose its power on you. It loses its grip. It's just like at the haunted house, when the lights are off and the noises are loud and crazy, it's super scary. But if you just went in the daytime with all the lights on and you walked through and you turn off the loud music, it's actually no big deal.

I have never heard that before. That is the best way for sure to look at it. So good, Zach. That's amazing. I love that.

It really is. I mean, think somebody put all that garbage in the haunted house. That person wasn't freaked out while they were doing it. Why? Well, because you're holding the skeleton in your hand. You know what it is. You know it's fake. It's no big deal. You hang it up, but other people come through and they see it, they get scared. And so it's, it's just that, that idea. So it starts with that. Bring it into the light. How do you do that? Again, you work with a therapist, have the hard conversation. If you're not ready to do that, grab your journal and just start writing it down. Be totally honest with yourself. I, I tell my clients, look, write down the thing that you're embarrassed to write down, the thing that you never wanna say out loud, but it's in there.

Mm-hmm.

And I'll tell you an example for me. When I was going through a really hard time in my business, I thought for sure I was gonna run outta money and have to go back and get a job again. Well, I got my journal out and started writing, and, and next thing you know, I'm saying like, I'm gonna run outta money. I'm gonna be totally broke. I'm gonna have to get a job as a UPS truck driver, and it's gonna be terrible. Like, it's like I have 2 engineering degrees and so much success in my life, and here I am freaking out that I'm gonna end up as a, as a UPS driver, which no shame if you are one. I mean, it's an amazing thing, but it's just how funny that The mind goes crazy. It picks out these, and then you look at what you wrote down. It's like, huh, that's kind of strange. None of that is actually true. It's just stuff going on in my head. And, and so bring it into the light and then recognize that thoughts are just thoughts. You are not your thoughts. You are a being who thinks. And many of the thoughts that you're thinking aren't even true. In fact, a lot of them are not true. And when you realize that, that the shame is just a pattern of thought, and it's not yours unless you choose to claim it. And so just let it go. Thoughts are thoughts. There's, it's no big deal. You had a thought, you had a shameful thought. Let's start releasing and letting that go. And there's a lot of tools for that. You know, your coach can help you, your therapist can help you, but it's, it's about separating ourself, our identity, from this, this thought, you know. So we got to pull it out of the shadow into the light, and then we need to let it go. And while