Relationship GRIT: How to Stay Together and Thrive Together with Jon & Kathryn Gordon

Welcome to True Grit and Grace, a podcast designed to empower you to claim your resilience and thrive through life's challenges. I am Amberly Lago, a mindset coach, fitness expert and bestselling author. Each week, I'll dive deep with the world's brightest thought leaders and elite performers to share tangible tools and practical advice to inspire you to keep your eyes on the prize and forge ahead. So get ready to conquer your fears, heal any trauma, lead with your heart, and elevate your life with grit and grace.

Hi, and welcome to the show. Today on the show, I have John Gordon and Kathryn Gordon with us. John's bestselling books and talks have inspired readers and audiences around the world. In fact, he has authored 23 books, including 8 bestsellers. And of course, my favorite, his new book that he co-authored with his wife Kathryn, um, that I can't wait to talk about. His principles have been put to the test by numerous Fortune 500 companies, professional and college sports teams, and he has been featured on the Today Show, CNN, CNBC, and magazines and newspapers, just to name a few. His TED Talk, y'all, if you want a good laugh and you want to be inspired, you got to check out his TED Talk that has been viewed by thousands. Catherine is just as beautiful on the inside as she is on the outside.

Thank you.

a businesswoman, movie producer, and a top sales producer or top producer in sales for companies before following her passion as an actress and model. She now invests in real estate, mentors women, and continues to write and speak to audiences about keys to great relationships. I mean, what don't you do? And I said before we started, I feel like I've won the lottery to get to sit here with the two of you. So thank you for being here and welcome to the show.

Thank you for having us.

We're honored to be with you.

Yeah, well, I have to say, I was listening to your TED Talk. I was walking around the house and I was playing your TED Talk and my husband and I started laughing. He goes, oh, who's that comedian? And I said, it's not a comedian. He's a famous speaker. So your TED Talk was so informative and so full of wisdom. But funny as well. So I love to hear you speak. And your book, you guys, it— I just— it's so well written. And I love that you give, Kathryn, that you give your point of view and you give your point of view and you really talk about what it takes to have and maintain a great relationship. Before we get started, can we just talk about how y'all met?

Sure. Well, I had moved to Atlanta. Catherine was already there, and she'd been living there a few years, and I was living there maybe a year or two. And I got in the restaurant business. I opened up a bar in Buckhead. I was 24 years old, and I opened up this bar. After 3 weeks of being open, I'm sitting outside and Catherine is walking down the street. I rec— I don't recognize her. I see her and I just fall in love. It was love at first sight. Not for her, but definitely for me. And so she was very beautiful. And I said to her, hey, you're the most beautiful woman I've ever seen. And that wasn't a lie. Like, I really felt that and said that in that moment. She said I was cute or handsome or something like that. And I said, I'm having a party Friday night. Will you come back? She said, yes. She never came back. So I thought, I'll never see her again. So I thought about her a couple of times. And a week later, I'm at a charity event called the Best of Atlanta. And she was there. I saw her across the room. I couldn't believe it. I was with my parents. They were visiting. And there she was. I was like, that's her. I ran over to her. I'm like, hey, remember me? She's like, yeah, yeah, yeah. She was eating her cheesecake and could care less that I was in front of her.

True.

And I think she was actually talking to some guy at the time. And I sort of like just cut right in front of them. Didn't even see him. I was so laser focused on her. I said, "I'm not leaving without getting your card," and so I got her card, and she had her number on it. So I I called the number, and we had a conversation. It was a good one. Called her again. We talked again, and then I said, "Let's go out." So she agreed to go out, and every time we were supposed to go out, she would cancel. So she canceled and canceled and canceled. I think she canceled like five times. And finally, in the last time, she said— I said, if we don't go out tonight, we're never going out. And so what happened when I said that to you?

Well, you know, I was on the phone with a girlfriend. You remember back in the day when you used to click over?

Yeah.

So I clicked over to my girlfriend. I'm like, you're not going to believe what this guy just said to me. You know? And she's like, oh my gosh, you have to go out with him. So I literally, I didn't put on any makeup. I had my hair back in barrettes. Didn't put on a cute outfit, nothing. I didn't make any effort and I went out to meet him and he was kind of like, oh, you don't look like the woman I met the last time.

I was like, are you the same one that, you know, was at that party? Because she looked completely different, right? She didn't do makeup or anything. And but we still had a nice conversation, a nice talk, but it wasn't like there were, you know, it wasn't like there was magic in the air at the time, right? And so She went away with her friends that weekend and they were talking about her life and she was trying to simplify her life. She was dating all these—

I was dating like a list of, you know, guys, you know, back in your 20s, your early 20s. And so I decided I was going to simplify my life. And so I'm talking to my girlfriends and we're going through the list and I'm marking all these people off.

And she's dating like really successful guys, older guys flying her all these places, you know, the lifestyles of the rich and famous, and I'm like driving this beat-up Nissan Sentra. I'm 24 years old. And so I was like—

He wasn't even on the list.

Yeah, well, I thought I was eliminated, but I didn't even make the list. So she said, I want to simplify my life. And so she simplified. I didn't make the list. She gets back home, and to this day she doesn't know why, but, but Catherine called me.

I think it's a God thing. Yeah, I just— I called him and I was like, I'm home. And the next thing you know, he's at my door and he comes in and we stayed up all night long talking about God. I mean, really, we could have been doing anything. No making out. No, nothing. I just— it was God. We just talked about God.

We were both very spiritual, not religious at all or anything like that, but we just, at the time, very spiritual. We just talked about God and our, our journeys, and it was just a really cool conversation, and there was a definite connection At that time, it was just wild. Like the fact that she would call me and say, I'm home, even though I wasn't even on the list. And I just went over there and I'm like, I'm coming over. And we've been together ever since.

Yeah.

Oh, I love that story. It's so similar to the story of my husband and I, who he kept bringing me like, well, actually, I might get in trouble for saying this, but, you know, saying before we started the interview, he was a cop. And so he would actually pull me over, like lights and sirens.

That's hilarious.

And it got to the point where I would see the lights and I used to pull over and it'd be him and he'd be like, hey, you know, I'm probably gonna get in trouble for saying this. But then it got to where I was like, oh, he's got the lights on again. And I would just go and not stop. And people would be like, oh my God, look at that girl running from the cops. But then he would bring me flowers and then He would bring me these huge bouquets of flowers and I would just— nope. I was so focused on my career and, you know, I had a daughter. I was a single mom. I didn't want any distractions. And, and it was finally when he left me one rose on my truck on the windshield with a note. And I was like, okay. And then my granny said, why don't you give the cop a chance? And so I was like, Okay. So now I still tell my husband, you better thank Granny for telling me to give you a chance.

That's right.

But we had a connection as well. And I love that when you talk in your book about connection and you talk about the principles of how to make a relationship work, because it's not always easy. And I think a lot of people are finding that now more than ever through COVID, when some people have lost their jobs or Or in California, we're still pretty locked down here.

I know.

And so a lot of people are struggling. I have friends that are going through divorce. And you talk about the principles of having grit in a relationship. And you really break it down into simple, easy to like grasp on tools to apply to your relationship. And that first part, you talk about God and how that That's a big part of your relationship. And I love that because I think that when, you know, when we've definitely gone through some hard times, I don't think if we didn't have faith, if we didn't believe in something bigger than us that was going to help us get us through those times, I don't know what we would have done. And you really share some vulnerable moments in the book. And there's one story that you share that I love. And you talk about when you found out you're pregnant. So can you tell us about when you found out you're pregnant and you first, and you first let your husband know, like, guess what, I'm pregnant?

Yeah, he says.

Yeah.

So yeah, he came in and I don't, I can't even remember what was happening.

But yeah, it was pretty crazy.

So, so he comes in. Oh, we were running your campaign, I think, or maybe we had just finished it.

Yeah.

And he comes in and, you know, just kind of moping around, you know, doing whatever. And I was like, um, we're pregnant. He's like, what are you talking about we're pregnant? I'm not ready. Like, you better get ready. You better get ready. So then he says, well, we're in Lamaze class. And he just was not focused. He wasn't into it. You know, he was just, you know, halfway concentrating and paying attention.

Okay, 27 years old.

And I was just like, oh my gosh, you're just not into this. And he was like, honey, it's okay. I'll be good on game day. Like, game day?

Who says that?

Who says that?

But I really was good on game day. I did a good job on game day. See, I was, I was an athlete. And so I was never great in practice, but I always played really well in games. So to me, this was just practice. But when the pressure was on, I would be good on game day. So that's what I said to her.

I love that. And you know what? I can tell that you are really good under pressure because with your TED Talk, you had 2 hours to— well, you didn't really even have a chance to prepare. It was like a last-minute thing. Can you come do this TED Talk? And you showed up in a suit and gave one— I don't know, it may be my favorite TED Talk ever. I mean, it's unbelievable. I'm like, oh my gosh, I cannot believe you just got up there on that infamous red circle and delivered a talk like that.

It wasn't even planned. I literally landed. I was supposed to speak the next day at this education conference, but they were doing a TED Conference the day before. And when I arrived, they said one of their speakers had canceled. Would you want to speak? And as we're driving to the hotel, I said, nah, because I had just spoken to the San Francisco 49ers the night before. And so I was yelling and, and, and really being, uh, you know, motivational with the speakers and talking to the coaches. And I had all these private meetings with the different coaches as well that were asking my advice. So I was really like—

It's draining.

And then I had 4 hours sleep. You know, flying from the West Coast back to the East Coast. So I was exhausted and I said, nah, I don't want to do it. And then as we're driving, I really heard the words, isn't this your mission? Isn't this your vision of reaching people? So I said, how many people are going to be there? And they said 400. I said, okay, I've got to do this. So I literally said, okay, I'll do it. We ran to the hotel. I changed into a suit. I wasn't even wearing a suit. Changing the suit. and then went right to the event and gave the TED Talk right there. So it wasn't even 2 hours. I think it was probably like an hour. Didn't plan it. I winged the TED Talk of talking about grit. You know, I talked about, right, and, and, um, the secrets to— the surprising secrets to success and so forth. Grit was part of that, and, um, individual grit at the time, and gave that talk.

Yeah.

And it was one of those, uh, one of those rare moments, but, but it was game day and had to, had to, had to perform just so. But We have to be honest, like my performance on our game day of the birth pales into comparison to Catherine's performance about what she did. First child, no drugs, all natural, all natural childbirth. And that was, I'll never forget, that was challenging. She deserves more than a medal. It was so hard.

Yeah, it, you know, it's interesting. I did the first one, same thing, no, no meds. I didn't, I wanted to like do it all natural, but the second time around with my husband, she was so big she was breech and she got stuck. So I had to have a cesarean. And I don't think my husband, he was all excited that we planned this cesarean. And I cried. I was like, that's going to be just such a hard recovery. And I was upstairs crying and he was downstairs with my oldest daughter, like doing high fives. Like, yeah, we're going to schedule it. We're going to do this and that. And when we in the hospital, As they, you know, he looked beyond the curtain to see what the doctors were doing and he could see what they do during a cesarean. He was like, he almost fainted.

Right.

And he was like, okay, maybe this isn't what I expected.

Yeah.

But he has always shown up. He's like you, John. He has shown up when the going gets tough. He really, he's a hero. In fact, today's my dad's birthday. He talked to my dad, then my dad gets on the phone. He said, I just love him. He said, you know, it's so nice that I don't have to worry about you, that your husband, I know he's good. And I said, yes, he is. I said, he's a handful. And my dad said, but he's worth it. And so—

I love hearing that. My dad was a police officer. Yeah. And so we, we know how great police officers are. And there are a lot of A lot of great men and great women that are doing that work.

Oh, I didn't realize your dad was a police officer.

New York City, undercover narcotics.

Yep.

Wow.

Yeah.

Wow. And I'm so sorry to hear. I know you lost your dad and it wasn't that long ago. So sorry.

Yeah, 3 years ago. My mom, you know, 14 years ago now. Your mom and dad, you know, years even before that. Yeah.

You've definitely gone through some ups and downs and, and Really what I think is hard in a relationship is when, you know, you're used to being, doing certain things together and healthy and strong. And then when something happens and you feel like the rug's kind of pulled out from underneath you and one of you struggling. And I know you struggled for a while and you've been in Glamour magazine for interviews and talked a lot, Catherine, about—

My breast implants. Yeah.

Now when you talk About that? How many years ago was that?

So I got my implants in 1988 and I got them out in 1999.

But was it really talked about back then? Because now it's very much talked about, but I didn't think when you were sharing it.

Yeah, no, I mean, it wasn't talked about. I mean, everybody in my town was— were definitely getting it done. I mean, all my girlfriends. So That part, you know, was happening, but the problems with implants were not talked about.

Yes.

Matter of fact, the whole thing was my doctor had told me, look, you got saline implants. It's like the saline in your body and they'll last forever. Right? That was what they said back then. Of course, you know, Now it's every 10 years you're supposed to get them switched out. But, you know, I didn't really have any problems with them until I think it was a combination of just my daughter being born and breastfeeding. And we lived in a really old house that I think had some issues. And but, you know, everybody thought I was crazy. I mean, everybody thought I was crazy. And I would beg John to come home from law school. He was in law school at the time and go to yet another doctor to get more tests. And then every time I'd come home, nobody could see anything. You couldn't see anything in the x-rays because I also had like a, a real heaviness in my chest and it was like a scratching. It was hard to explain. Like it almost felt like, you know, itching from the inside out.

Hmm.

And then I would get like this pain down my arm. There was just a whole series of things. And you might have seen that if you— I don't know if you saw the Monsters Inside Me video.

No, I didn't.

That's a good— that's a good one to see. I think it's still on, um, uh, what do they call that, on demand. Um, it's Monsters Inside Me in My Mind Is— um, I think it's called—

Oh wait, I have seen that, that series, and I've seen that it's undiagnosed, like—

Yeah, so my— they did a story on that. Yeah. And I think, I think that Yeah, I think out of all the things I've done, all the documentaries, the magazines, everything, that was a little bit later on. So it's very comprehensive. And, you know, kind of shares from the beginning to the end. So that's a good one to watch.

And she went on the Montel Williams Show at the time, which was a really—

Way back when.

Way back when. But that was like the big show at the time and shared. And she was like one of the first people to be talking about this, one of the first women to talk about The problems with breast implants, because when they came out and they examined them and they looked at them and they sent it to the lab for, for analysis, it came back as being very infected with mold, right?

Yeah, well, Aspergillus niger.

Yeah. Yeah.

And so what was inside of her, what was inside of those implants, should have killed her. Yeah, the doctor said like if this would have Ruptured, you would have been dead. You would have died.

So the, the, the scientist that they had sent my implants to get tested, an independent scientist, had actually wanted to talk to me. He called me on the phone and he just said, I just, I just need to talk to you. I need to hear your voice because, wow, I've never met anybody that actually lived from having this in their bodies. So he's like, you have— young lady had a French accent— young lady, you have won the lottery.

Wow.

Yeah.

And I sure felt like a jerk after we found all this out because I wasn't very supportive when she was going through this, which is what we wrote about in the book and how like she was going from doctor to doctor and they were saying, you know, it's in your head, you're fine. And so we started to think that it was all psychosomatic, that there really was nothing wrong. Very frustrating. Again, I think I'm 28, 29 years old. We have a daughter, a lot of pressure, stress. I also had a restaurant that I was, you know, trying to make successful. And so here I am going to law school, the restaurant, again, a child, another one on the way, newly married, and then my wife is now sick. And you don't want your wife sick. You want her to be healthy. And I'm dealing with all that, and I wasn't mature enough to be able to handle it. And I did not handle it well. And I was not a great support at all. I look back and I'm like, man, you were definitely a jerk. You were a young jerk who didn't know how to treat your wife at the time and really take care of her. And so I do now, but I didn't then.

He's been paying for it ever since.

So don't worry.

Yes, that's true. That is true.

Oh my goodness. And that just reminds me, my husband always says, um, because like after my motorcycle accident, when I was in a coma, doctors were going to amputate my leg. And he was like, no, you're not going to amputate I want her to wake up with both of her legs. That's gonna be her decision. You have to wait until she wakes up. And so now he kids— well, I think he's serious— says, you know, because of me, you have both of your legs, you know. And so yeah, I pay for it constantly.

Now, can I ask you, how did that happen that they would actually say you needed to amputate your leg, but then you didn't have to?

Well, I had, it was basically crushed. It was like, they described it as like a war wound. It wasn't broken. It was crushed. If you see the x-rays, it was like shattered into pieces. My femoral artery was severed. I had compartment syndrome. So my leg was basically imploding. And so I had a 1% chance of saving it.

Wow.

And so when I woke up, when they could get me stabilized enough, I woke up out of a coma and they said, you've got to 1% chance. And I said, great, well then I still have a chance.

You got a chance.

Wow. I got a chance. And so, and that is where the grit and the grace of God came in because it was, they couldn't believe. I'm actually in, the orthopedic surgeon who was a trauma specialist, he said it was the most difficult operations that he, operations I should say, he's ever done. And he put me in his book of research because they couldn't believe that they saved it. And, you know, to have a husband be with you by your side through every single surgery, he was, he still is my rock. After I got out from the hospital, you know, I remember I was really sick. I'd gone septic and it was the first time I was really scared because I really thought I was gonna die. And I just, I felt I was dying. I felt like I was dying.

Felt like it, yeah.

And I remember I told him, he goes, you're awfully quiet. And I'm not quiet very often.

And he's—

I said, well, I'm scared. And it was the first time I admitted, I was like, I'm, I'm scared. And he said, no, you can't be scared. You're my rock. You can't be scared.

And I was like, you're gonna make me cry.

Okay, I gotta suck it up. Gotta keep going. You know, I can't be scared. So I think that in relationships, we both have to be each other's rocks at different times, you know?

Right.

And it all goes back to that grit. And I love that you've broken down grit into 4 principles, what it stands for. And we've talked about the God and the connection and the faith part. Can you share a little bit with us about the next part of grit?

Well, it's resolve. And you really have to resolve to stick together. It has to be a decision that you decide to stick it out. To make it work and to take the time to, you know, connect with each other. And so we, we thought that was an important part of, you know, you go through hard times, you resolve to stick it out. You know, you don't give up.

Yeah, I think it's, it's easy sometimes nowadays. People just get married and get divorced. And, you know, when the going gets tough, they're like, I'm out of here. See ya. And I think it really is a decision that you both make together that no matter what, you are going to get through this. And I think that teaches our children resilience as well. And it teaches them how to have a lasting relationship and get through tough times. So I love that you shared about the resolve. And the next part of the grid—

Is invest. And that, you know, you have to invest in your relationship. And at different times in your relationship, it might be one more than the other, you know, kind of like when you were in your— with your car, your motorcycle accident. It was your husband investing the time to take care of you. And, you know, vice versa. And so there was a time in our marriage when my husband was traveling a lot. I mean, his, his Speaking had really taken off. And I had 2 athletes, one in high school and the other in middle school. My daughter was running to lacrosse practices. My son was always doing tennis tournaments. So, you know, I was always running them to ballparks and tennis courts, and they both had gluten allergies. So it was always about making sure they had gluten-free food. So Even if the team was being fed, you know, subs or whatever, my kid couldn't do that. So I had to make sure that she or he had food. And so it really, really got to a point I didn't have any time to come home and clean the house. I mean, I was really starting to get worn down and I called John and I just said, you got to come home. I need you right now. I really need you. And, you know, at first, and, you know, he says this, he's like, oh, so you need me to come home and do your job for you? And I said, yes, I need you. But I got to tell you, that year ended up being the most amazing year of transformation for us as a couple and for us as a family. He came home. Of course, the first 2 weeks as he's running the kids to practice and everything, he's like, this is easy. This is fun, right? And I'm thinking to myself, okay, you just wait, buddy. And, you know, by the end of that month, you know, he was, I got to do that again. I'm like, you got to do it again. And so he really started to develop a sense of respect and understanding for what I was going through. And so then he invested in me and in our family. And so, you know, it's an ebb and flow. You know, it's normally one or the other. Sometimes, you know, it just depends on what's going on. But so that's invest.

And you have to— you can't be a consumer. So often we're consuming in our relationships. It's about what we can get from it. But a great relationship is about what you can give to the relationship. You have to be committed to each other and to the relationship. It's about we, not me. So you have to make sure that you put the relationship First. And that always costs you something. Like, service and sacrifice always cost you something, but you have to give that up to make the team better and to make your spouse better. And so commitment is a big part of that, and it's a big part of the investment you need to make in the relationship. And then you have to do it together. That's the T. And the T is together. Can't be just one. You both have to decide to invest together. If one person wants to make the relationship work and the other doesn't, it's not going to work.

Mm-hmm.

You both have to have a commitment to the relationship. So you got to make God the center of your marriage and your relationship. You got to make sure that you have resolve to stick it out through the process and through the years together. You're investing in the relationship and in each other, and then you're doing it together, and that commitment together is what builds a strong relationship. Over time.

Easier said than done.

I have to say.

No, I mean, it's, it is an endless cycle.

Right?

Yeah.

Yeah. And there is a lot of change and I just relate to what you're saying so much. I mean, I remember, you know, when my husband was studying to take the lieutenant's test, there was a lot of me doing stuff. He was so focused on making lieutenant and you know, I was in the middle of my career and we had a new baby. And, and sometimes it can feel a little lonely when one person is so laser-focused on their job. Well, now he's retired. And now I would, I've, you know, before COVID was traveling nonstop, speaking at events and a book tour before that. And then, and now my business is still really busy. And just hearing you say it has to be about we, not me.

Yes.

Like, and makes me think, you know, I need to put a little more investment in my relationship. You know, it can get— it can get— you can easily keep going on that hamster wheel of got to do this, got to do this for work or whatever. But it's important to really get your priorities straight.

And that's where that emotional maturity comes in. I mean, life happens. So it's really about being able to Sit back and take a look, like you just said, and think, oh, you know, maybe it's time for me to do that. And I think what happens a lot of times in relationships is there's not that level of understanding and willingness and commitment. You know, it's my job's more important than your job.

Mm-hmm.

It's the competing. You can't compete. You're on the same team. And I think when you really, you know, can come at your marriage like that, oh my goodness, it's life-changing, right? I mean, it's— you're supporting each other.

And that's where the communication comes in, where you talk to each other and say, you know what, we've noticed that we're not spending as much time as we need to, where we're very busy, and then you make the time to connect. And so Catherine and I would take walks together when we weren't connecting. We would make time to connect. I mean, she wouldn't let it go long where we felt disconnected. Like, she would come to me and say, I feel really disconnected right now. And then we would make time together to connect. And those walks were important. And so was our, our, I would say our physical intimacy was important too.

I always say, have sex with your partner.

Yeah, she says that. She tells her, no, she tells her girlfriends. That's who she says it to is her girlfriends.

She says, Well, because it produces oxytocin, which is a bonding hormone. It's meant to make you guys feel connected. That's why John's so positive.

Yeah, there you go. The secret is out. There you go.

You know what?

It is important though. It really is that bonding. But when you break it down to just the science behind it, it is so important. Right.

Yeah.

And I'm glad that, you know, my husband will come to me and say, I don't feel connected, or, I need you, or, I need attention. But, you know, it's also with COVID the whole change and just getting the— you know, I moved from my office to my home office and we have a 12-year-old doing homeschool right now down Stairs. As you were explaining about making the lunches, I go in between Zooms and I like, I'm the new lunch lady for school.

Yes.

Making the lunch. And then it's like important to spend time and invest in your, your marriage too, or your partner too. So I'm so glad that you're bringing that up. Um, so are you guys doing a lot of speaking events together? Or do you do mostly your speaking events apart? Are you doing a lot of speaking for the book together?

So with the book, I mean, I've, I've done, gosh, probably about 5 now on my own, maybe 6. And then of course, we're, we're doing them together as well. So but of course, he's still, he's weaved in probably, you know, 2 other of his own on power positive leadership or whatever. So he's always doing stuff.

I'm really busy with my virtual keynotes that I'm doing right now and a ton of those kind of events. Actually, I'm surprised at how busy I am doing all these virtual keynotes. But at the same time, we're doing a bunch of interviews and podcasts and webinars and some coaching calls together, which has been a lot of fun because, you know, for years I was solo.

I know.

I was a solo act, and now we're, we're doing things together. I'm watching Catherine do her thing, and she's been invited to now speak at a bunch of different events, women's events. So that's been exciting to to get those requests and those invitations. So they haven't happened yet, but those speaking engagements are gonna, you know, post— as we come out of COVID she's gonna be doing a lot of those kind of events as well. So it's great to see her. I love that. Yeah, her share her message. And she has such a great message for both men and women, but, you know, especially these women's groups where she can counsel women, give them great advice, help them through these tough times and give them the support they need. It's really great to see because everyone needs it. And I love to talk to guys about You know, I'm having leaders who have read my, all my other books now read this one and they're like, wow, I see the personal side of you, but I really like this book. I love how raw and honest you were. And I'm also getting a lot of great insight into how I could be a better husband, which then makes them more successful as a leader.

Yeah. And I love that you can do so many things together. When I first launched my podcast, I wanted the first episode to be with my husband. I was really trying to talk him into it. I was like, come on, honey, do the first episode with me. He's like, no, no, no, that's your thing. That is your thing. But he did do one interview with me and it really shifted my perspective and I had more compassion for what he went through during what I thought was hard for me. And I realized how hard that time and when I was going through all those surgeries were from him.

Wow.

For him, it gave me that perspective to hear him talk about it. And I think it's very healing when you can talk about something. I think that it must really strengthen your marriage to get to share these things with others. Have there been any moments that you're like, oh, no, we don't want to talk about that, or any times where you're like, maybe I shouldn't have shared that vulnerable moment because now people are asking about it?

We wrote about so much of that in the book. So, I mean, in terms of sharing the, the dirty laundry and aired it out. I mean, we put that all in the book about what, what had happened and what went wrong and all the mistakes I made. Catherine didn't make any mistakes, but the mistakes I made—

I did.

Along the way, you know, I think we've shared a lot of that. So I think in terms of, of doing that, it's almost like, uh, there's nothing else we would feel uncomfortable talking about. But we do wonder, like, should we talk about sex? Like, should we talk about how that's important for a relationship? Should we talk about, you know, how deep should we go into this different topics and different issues and different challenges?

So I did question, like, you know, I don't mind sharing about my life and my story. I'm an open book. And, you know, that's really kind of how the book came about is I was started to run into a lot of my friends that were still home with kids. My 2 had gone off, so I was empty nesting. And, you know, they still had kids at home and they were in that stressful time that I remember. It was a hard time. Some of them were talking about splitting up with their husbands. Or so I found myself standing in the produce aisle of my grocery store, really sharing my experience to say, like, you're not alone.

Hmm.

It's okay. And if you can get through this and maybe giving certain tips depending on what their specific situation was. And so for me, it was easy to share. John has grown a lot and changed so much from the person he was in the beginning. And so, I mean, we did kind of ask each other, you know, you think people are going to take this okay? Because You know, the good news is, is he is who he is now and he's not that person, but he did do those things. And so it was something we talked about, right? But we knew that we— it was a God thing. We knew we had to get this message out and the truth so that we could show couples you can go through a lot, but if you are committed to this relationship, You can make it work. And basically, if we can do it, if we can stick it out and stay together and have such a great relationship now, it's possible because the grass isn't always greener.

And the mistakes I made were when I was, you know, 30, 31, and I'm now almost 50. And so I've changed so much. And so for me, sharing your, your past and your mistakes I think it lets people know that you're real and that you're not perfect. And I think people connect more to you in your brokenness, in your flaws. I think people expected this book to be like, oh, they're this perfect couple and John's this great writer and he has all this success with his books and speaking. And now they're writing this book about how you can be great too in your relationship. And I think now people are reading it and they're going, wow, we're getting so many emails.

Yeah.

Thanking us for being real, for being raw, for sharing the truth, for not sugarcoating, for telling it like it is. And in doing that, I think people are connecting it, connected to it more, and they're realizing, okay, like, God, like, they're like us. Like, we have these same problems. Everyone has problems in their relationships. Everyone has to work on something, right? And so are we getting better together? And No one's perfect. So what are we working on? And this is a great conversation starter. And if you have a great marriage, people are reading it who have a great marriage, they're saying, wow, we got this one thing that we're actually doing now.

Yeah, that's been really interesting. You know, it's of course wonderful to get the emails and calls from, you know, young couples or couples with small children. But what's really intriguing, for me is to get the messages from couples that have been married 50 years that are like, I'm so excited to read this book. And I'm kind of thinking like, you could probably, you know, but that's because—

You could write it.

It's not about that. It's really just about everybody has issues. And so it's been really neat to see these couples that have these long-term relationships. They're lifelong learners. We can all learn something from somebody. So that's been, I think, the neatest thing for me.

I love that. And yeah, I think it allows people to say, oh, they went through that too. Oh my goodness. I'm not the only one. I can get through it too. So you really give people so much hope that they can get through anything. You turn negatives into positives. And I love the humor that you throw in there too, with everything that you do. You just always make it entertaining. I'm not like a— it's hard for me to sit and read. But the way you laid your book out, it's easy to read and take notes. And, you know, I've got 2 pages of notes and I've got sticky notes on my desk, if you could see my desk. And so I just—

Yeah.

Just to have you here, and it's just been such an honor. And there's one thing I like to always ask my guests, and I'd love for you to give me your definition of it. And it's What is your definition of resilience?

I thought you were gonna ask me my definition of grit, but resilience is—

Grit?

No, it's never—

it's—

no, I'm just thinking for a second. It's never giving up. It's the ability to continue to move forward through failure, rejection, adversity, and obstacles. But in terms of grit, I want to say what drives grit, because I think this is really powerful since this is the True grit and grace podcast. I think it's about the fact that grit is inspired by vision and purpose. If you can see it, you keep on working towards it. If you have a purpose, you don't give up because of what you do. You get you give up because you forget why you do it, and so you remember your why, and that keeps you going. So the vision and purpose is key. Grit is is grit's fueled by optimism and belief, and so if you have this optimism and belief, you keep on moving forward. It's powered by faith and hope. And so when fear sets in, we have faith, and faith helps us overcome our fear. So we continue to move towards the vision that we have, the purpose that we have, and then it's driven by love. If you don't love it, you'll never work to be great at it.

Mm-hmm.

And so you have to have love for what you do and love for your relationship. And because we loved each other, we stayed together. So that's where relationship grit comes in. You love each other, you stick together. You love your career, you love your craft, You continue to work towards your craft because you love it. So love is the ultimate driver of grit, and it's revived by resilience, which you just said— resilience, that resilience to just say, I'm not giving up. It's like, it's a little bit of a stubbornness, right? I'm not quitting. It's kept alive, right, by that stubbornness. So I'm not giving up. I'm not quitting. Somehow, some way, I'm gonna make it. And that edge just keeps you going. And if we're honest, includes a little fear of failure and a desire to prove oneself. And so you want that little fear of failure that gives you the edge. When you're— Catherine's a tennis player, and so when she's going to a tennis match, there's always that thought that says, maybe I don't have it today, I'm not going to play well today. So there's a little fear, and that gives you a little bit of edge to play well.

Yeah.

And then the same thing in terms of the desire to prove oneself. I want to prove myself. I want to show that Have what it takes, and I'm, I'm worthy. And I think every great athlete, if you watch Patrick Mahomes, you watch Tom Brady after all these years, still wants to prove himself that he still has it. And you can see how that continues to drive you. So that's my formula for grit, and I know that resilience is a big part of it. So I just had to share that because I think it just connects with what your podcast is all about.

Oh, it is. It's like, yes, could you just keep talking?

You're amazing.

I know, I love it. But yeah, I think a little healthy fear is good that, you know, it does keep you going. In fact, I've even said the only time— I have a nerve disease called complex regional pain syndrome, and the only time I don't, like, I don't feel pain at all is when I'm on stage. And I think it's because my adrenaline's going, I have a little bit of that fear, and I'm like, well, that's it. I just need to be on stage all the time.

Right, right, right.

That makes a lot of sense though, because when I would have food allergies, I had really bad food allergies. What I found was when I was speaking on stage, actually the allergies went away once I started speaking because I was having a lot of problems with my throat and everything.

Side effects.

And then I would start speaking and everything would go away. So I think you're right. There's something about the adrenaline that helps you overcome the fear. But I have to say, I tell people all the time, like, this story is really funny. Ken Blanchard, the author of The One Minute Manager, He's a mentor of mine. And I said, Ken, I'm traveling all the time. I'm exhausted. I get home. I said, my wife wants a neck massage, Ken, but I feel like I deserve the massage. What should I do? He said, John, give her a massage. If you don't, someone else will. So I say, that night, you better believe I gave my wife a neck massage. I said, I admit it was, it was out of fear. It was definitely out of fear. But now I do laundry out of love. And so, you know, the fear of her getting a massage from someone else, all right, that's going to drive me, give me a little edge to make sure I'm doing the right things as a husband.

Yeah, yeah. It's so funny because my husband will say, you know what, that's okay. You don't want to take care of this, I can find somebody else who will. I'm like, really, honey, you better stop that right now.

Yeah.

And he'll also tell me, I just did the laundry for you. That's your job. I did it for you. I'm like, no, no, no, honey. That's all of our job. That's all of us. That's—

no, no.

That's very, that's very true. It's all of our job. And one other thing I have to share is like the love that drives the grit. I always say when you're devoted to something, you know, it drives your discipline. And so I'm devoted to Catherine. I have a lot of love. And so when I, when I All these years on the road when I became a speaker and I was on the road all the time, my love for her and my— drove my discipline to always be faithful and always do the right thing. Of course, we talk about in the book the early years before that when I wasn't faithful and I made those mistakes early on and was, you know, being a stupid jerk at the time. And then as you get older, right, you learn. And then I would go on the road, I would speak, but I was devoted and that drove my discipline. But I do tell people, but I'm also a little afraid of my wife. I'm a little afraid.

Yeah, that's a little crazy.

And then she has a mean right hook and she broke her brother's nose when they were young. So you just, you gotta look out for that.

Yeah. My husband always tells me, oh, don't go Texas on me.

Okay, don't go Texas on me.

Right.

We don't wanna see that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Well, oh my goodness. Thank you so much. Can you tell everybody who's listening or maybe watching it on YouTube, where they can find— you've got a, you've got a course, I think, that goes along with the grit.

Yeah. Amazon, you can get it from Amazon and just go to relationshipgritbook.com and there's a free action plan. So that's a really great tool to use as a couple or by yourself. I tell people, you know, I've had several people say, oh, I'm not in a relationship. I'm like, My best relationship work happened when I was single. So this book is for everyone. You do not have to be in a relationship. You know, it can be preparing you for the next one.

So, okay, but tell us again what the link is just in case somebody's missing it.

Yeah, it's relationshipgritbook.com.

Thanks. If you're listening to this while you're running or you're in your car, it'll be in the show notes for y'all to grab. You guys have to check out your— John, you got to check out John's TED Talk too. I love that. But yes, and definitely the book. Thank y'all so much for being here. It's so great to talk with you. And when you're back over this way, please let me know because I'd love to treat you for dinner.

We want to meet you and your husband.

That's— Yeah, we'd love to get together.

Yeah, I'd love to meet him and hear all his great stories.

Oh, he's got I know.

Thanks so much for joining us this week on True Grit and Grace Podcast. If you like it, please rate it or share it with your friends.

That would help too.

If you're not yet on the newsletter list, come over to amberlylago.com and jump on it. While you're there, you can grab a free downloadable Gratitude Journal, and you might just want to check out my book or even check out my monthly motivational membership. Thanks again for tuning in, and we'll see you next week.