Thriving Through Sobriety, Suffering, and Struggle with Charlie Engle

Thank you for tuning in to the True Grit and Grace podcast. I'm Amberly Lago, and I'll be sharing inspirational stories of resilience and empowering ideas to elevate your business and your life, ignite your passion, and fuel your purpose. Thank y'all for tuning in to True Grit and Grace. This episode is proudly brought to you by Nootopia, the most powerful nootropics on the market today. And these nootropic stacks are taking the industry by storm because they're highly effective. And each formula is customized for you based on your strengths, weaknesses, and your goals. So you can get exactly what you need. And your customized formula help you really focus intensely. Block out distractions, reduce stress and anxiety, enhance your creativity, Boost your memory and get rid of brain fog, and so much more. And the best part: there's a one-year guarantee, so there's no risk, zero risk to you to try them for yourself. So here's the deal: if you feel like you're not fully maximizing your potential, both personally and professionally, then you owe it to yourself to try Nootopia's formulas. They're a total game changer. Simply go to nootopia.com/amberly. That's N-O-O-T-O-P-I-A dot com forward slash A-M-B-E-R-L-Y, and make sure you. use that special code Amberly so you get your discount. Again, newtopia.com/amberly, and you can find that link in the show notes. And now enjoy the episode. Hey y'all, thank you for tuning in, uh, or tuning in again if you're a first-time listener. You are gonna love this episode. I feel so blessed because I have a new friend. He's on the show. It's gonna be a real treat for you. Charlie Engel is here with us today, y'all. He's legendary. I mean, there's extreme and then there's Charlie Engel. And I have his book Running Man, which is a must-read. We'll get into that some more. He has got a documentary that's produced with Matt Damon. And also, I think Matt Damon— I haven't seen that one yet, but Matt Damon also did the narration for it. Uh, he's run across the Sahara. He has run across icy volcanoes. There's probably not about anything this man cannot conquer. He's even had a short stint in federal prison. He has overcome addiction. He's coming up on his 30-year sobriety date, and we're going to have a big celebration for that. He's doing a penguin race, and we'll get into that. But I just am so grateful, so honored for you to be here, Charlie. Thank you so much for coming on to the show today.

Well, Amberly, that was the best intro I've had in a long time. So thank you very much. It's really a pleasure to be here and I'm excited about this conversation we're going to have.

Well, I saw you on stage, so I got a ticket to go to a Tony Robbins event, y'all. And I was like, I'd never been to a Tony Robbins event. And I saw, I just moved here to Dallas and I bought a couple of tickets for me and my friends, Sarah and Trevor, to go to this event. And sometimes you think that you're going to event to learn something or maybe a speaker and then you get there. And I'm like, oh my gosh, Charlie, you were the most amazing speaker. And you even had like a technical difficulty, like the electricity went off during the middle of your talk. And I was like, there he is, king of resilience. You just kept it going. But I was so moved by your authenticity, your vulnerability, and your story of struggle to success. And then even more than that, I was so touched by afterwards when I went to go meet you, just what a huge heart that you have. And so can we just start by saying what an incredible badass you are? And like, were you— was this your first time speaking on a Tony Robbins stage?

It was, it was. And I have taken to saying that I guess my— it was a higher power thing that the power got cut out On me. So, um, because I spent my life sort of telling people that adaptation is the key to pretty much everything. You know, you, when things are going right, it's easy to be an optimist, but you know, what happens when, you know, somebody literally pulls the plug and, uh, you know, I'm happy to say, at least in that instance, I was able to kind of just keep— you saw me, I basically just kept yelling at the audience.

Yes.

But, but— Because my microphone cut out.

Yes. And by the way, I was saying before we started recording, I was like, I haven't even checked email today. I haven't done much of anything except for stick my hair in a ponytail because I couldn't put your book down. And I was like, I just have to get to the end. In the end chapter, I love this. You say, I continue to believe that life is all about adaption. It's not the circumstances that we, that we are dealt that define us. Instead, the fabric of who we are is crafted by how we react. Cope, adapt. And now I have a new mantra that I carry with me: no big deal. I've adapted that mantra, by the way, which comes from your wife, right?

I think you and I bonded immediately over what I like to call mutual suffering, you know. And I mean, I don't mean that tongue-in-cheek or as a smartass. It really is the case that it's the same way I bonded with my wife, you know. She had already been through a tremendous amount by the time we met. And I think that that knowledge of shared suffering, um, allowed you and I immediately to kind of, uh, cut to the chase. We know— we both know we've been through some stuff.

Yeah, and I feel like it allowed you to speak the same language.

Well, and the other thing, I mean, look, everybody goes through stuff, and this is what I like to encourage people, and I think you do too. We all think that our stuff is somehow shameful or embarrassing, or if other people knew these things about us, that they might feel a certain way. And I contend that for the most part, it's the exact opposite of what we think. The more of that painful stuff that we share openly with other people, the more it welcomes our community into, uh, into the struggle and creates really lasting relationships. I mean, look at social media. It's a great example. You know, those people. God love them, who nothing ever goes wrong in their life, at least according to social media. I'm just not interested in it. I, I don't— I can't, I can't really relate to that person who, um, you know, whose life is just that perfect.

Is boring.

Really boring. And I mean, that's a— that's why I've done, you know, you read the book, but it's why I've done a lot of hard stuff and I mean, people who might think that the book is about running because it's called Running Man, it really doesn't have a lot to do with running. There's some running in there because I have done a lot of running, but it's really about this idea that controlled suffering allows me to learn how to deal with really hard situations that are out of my control. So what I mean by that is just if I run a— and I know we haven't gotten into the story, but if I run a marathon or I run 100 miles, Or I run across a desert, I'm gonna want to quit at some point. I mean, I'm not superhuman. Like, I, I'm just a regular guy who likes to run, and there's going to be a point in that event where I'm going, why did I think this was a good idea?

Yeah.

And I'm going to want to quit. That's the most important moment in the event because that's the one I'll remember, because everything is about trying to get past that moment. And for those people who are listening, I know you have a lot of sober followers too. It's the same as that moment when relapse is like right there, or that same moment when you're thinking about leaving your relationship or your job or whatever it is. You may still choose later to, to take those actions, but usually in that, you know, dark moment when we're thinking about quitting something, if we can just let that moment slide by and then approach it again with a clearer head later, a less emotional approach to it, usually we will find that we make the right decision. So the point is, the more often I get to that place, like in a run, in a marathon where there's really not that much at stake, like if I quit the marathon, nobody cares. I care, but like there's no— it's not life and death.

Mm-hmm.

But the more often that I push past that moment and just let it slide by the, the better I am at doing that in the other parts of my life.

Well, I mean, I want to get into like, what do you do in that struggle in just a few minutes? But I want to go back to like how you got into running, because here you were, an addict, um, but you had— you were a successful salesman. You were like— would you call yourself a functioning addict, or—

Well, aren't, aren't all addicts successful salespeople? Because that's basically what we do. I, I always I always say that if you have a business and you're looking for salespeople, get a recovering addict. And you got it. If you're not finding people who are in recovery, you're not— you're missing an entire pool. Because, you know, someone who's in recovery from addiction has figured out you can take that superpower of addiction and obsession and you can point it at positive things rather than drugs and alcohol or gambling or sex or whatever it is, you can point it towards positive things. And that energy is like unconquerable. I mean, so when I, you know, I spent 10 years beating my head against the wall of addiction. And very often a lot of it was about proving that I wasn't an addict. And my view of that was if I was the top salesperson or if I was, uh, if I could buy a house or I could get married or I could do like, like addicts don't do those things.

Do they?

And like, that was my viewpoint. And of course, addicts do all those things. And it was my way of appearing normal despite how I felt inside and how I knew that I needed to make a change. I just didn't have— I didn't have the courage or the ability for until, until the time was right. And, you know, I'm lucky, we're lucky that we finally found that time. When we had had enough.

Yeah. Well, and what's so interesting is, so you started running and it was a way kind of out of your addiction. So for me, I got into my addiction because I could no longer run, which is so wild. I had to figure out, okay, and, and I realized running was an addict— I guess an addiction for me. It was the way I coped with anxiety, fear, shame, a lot of shame.

Sure.

But when was it that you were like, enough is enough? I cannot kind of live this double standard. Because for me, I was like, on the inside, I felt like I was dying inside. On the outside, I was trying to keep it all together and prove that I was really okay, but I wasn't. And when was the point, the turning point, if you could just share with the listeners, like that you were like, I am sick and tired of being sick and tired of feeling like this, of doing these things. What was that point for you?

Yeah, well, that, that decade of addiction that I had was filled with attempts at quitting. You know, I went to rehab, I went to meetings, I went to church. You know, I like to joke that I went to a shaman, and if I could have found a witch doctor, I would have done that. Like, I, I was— what— but in hindsight, what I realized is I was desperate for someone or some other thing outside of me to take away my pain. Like, I, I wanted somebody to basically force me to quit. And my son, when I was 29 years old, was born, my first son. And I basically thought he was going to be that, that thing that was going to save me. That, like, Mm-hmm. Uh, I felt like I had tried everything else and nothing had worked. And of course nothing had worked because I hadn't worked it, as we say. Uh, but I didn't know that at the time. So I was looking for this other, like, finally, you know, surely I'm a decent enough human that I could stay sober for my son. I mean, that's how I, that's how I felt. And of course, you know, that's not how things work. And a couple months into his life, you know, I found myself once again in the worst neighborhood in town. You know, drinking and smoking crack for 6 days. And, uh, you know, that binge ended with me sitting on the ground outside a, you know, dumpy motel, handcuffed behind my back, you know, the police searching my car. And, you know, I sort of realized in that moment, uh, despite not sleeping for 6 days, I had this epiphany, I guess you could call it. You'd have to call it that. And that is just that nobody's coming to save me. You know, no, my son, my infant son certainly can't save me. My wife couldn't. My, my bosses couldn't. Nobody else could save me. I'm not a particularly religious person personally, but I have a lot of friends who, you know, the church, whatever church that might be, is very important to them. And, and most of them who are in recovery will also admit that even God can't save you until you're ready to be Save, whatever that might mean to you, until you can hand yourself over to something and say, okay, I obviously don't have the ability to do this.

Mm-hmm.

You know, for those 10 years, you know, I just thought I could outsmart this thing. You know, I'm a smart guy, and, you know, I'm all those other people who go to meetings and, you know, turn their life over and do all this stuff. It's like, that's not for me.

Well, all the things we tell ourselves, right? Like, all the promises that I would make to myself.

Oh yeah.

And, and I was, I was like in the victim mentality for a while. Like, how did a good girl like me end up like this? I was so different from so many people in my family. How could I be an alcoholic? And Charlie, I am married to a cop. He was lieutenant commander. So Trying to sneak my drinking because I was like hiding it and sneaking my drinking and living with a cop. That took some skill. You know, I'd be like, "Oh, me? No, I haven't been drinking." Don't make eye contact. The things that we tell ourselves. There is one story in your book that I love is when you're taken to prison and they ask you, "Okay, what's your religion?" And you're like, "I don't really have one." And he's like, "Okay, but when it comes time for Easter, don't be telling me that you're one thing or you're or you're you know a." And you want crackers or whatever. And I was just laughing in that chapter of your book. It is like hilarious. Like, yeah, just the real raw conversations that you had. But when you decided to get sober, did you— what did you, what did you do at that moment?

You know, you know, I had been to— I think what it took for me was that, that moment of recognizing that nobody could save me until I was ready to take the And so I'd been to loads of AA meetings up to that point, but I went to a meeting that night.

You did?

You know, that night I went to a meeting and I got up the next morning and I put on my running shoes and I ran like 2 very painful, awful miles. And, you know, as you know from the book, I'd been a runner in high school and even in college, you know, I used running. I, you know, I was a binger. I would go hard for a week or a month or even 6 months. And then I would clean my act up for a little while and make that proclamation. I'm never going to do that again. And, you know, we all know how that goes. And, uh, but this time when I recognized that there was no other thing outside of me that could set this course in motion, um, and I made a commitment, I made one simple commitment on that day, and that's that I would do those 2 things. I would go to a meeting and I would run every day for 30 days. That's all I said. And I kept it simple and I knew I shouldn't be thinking about the rest of my life. And I shouldn't, you know, whatever. I should just focus on this one thing. And for 30 days I did it. My life got markedly better. And I said, okay, why don't I just keep going for 90 days? And so I did it for 90 days. And ultimately, to cut to the chase, I ended up going to a meeting and running every day for 3 years.

Every single day for 3 years you went to a meeting?

Without missing a single day.

Yeah. Wow.

And, and, you know, and if— and for me, it, it, it began to feel like people will accuse you of being addicted to anything. You know, they're like, oh yeah, now you're just addicted to AA, or you're addicted to running. I'm like, well, you know, I haven't pawned my computer or sold my car for dope lately, so I, I'd call that a step in the right direction. I, I said this on stage at Tony Robbins, and you want to know something? I'd never done it the way I did it there, and I didn't plan it. It just sort of happened on stage, but I, I made this motion, I remember, of like someone hauling on a rope, right? They're, they're pulling. And even when your life is getting better, there are people in your life, and sometimes they're the ones who love you the most, and they're close to you, and they're still trying to pull you back into their lifestyle. And it took me years to understand that, that wasn't about you, that was about them. You know, their fear of you actually getting better and leaving them was stronger than their desire for you to get better. And I use the weight loss thing as the greatest example because it's a simple one that most people understand, and it has happened so many times. And I guarantee you there's going to be people nodding their head when they hear this. You take 2 people They're good friends. They both want to lose weight. Let's say they're basically at about the same spot, but one of them has much greater success and the other one, you know, simply can't get going. It can cause a huge rift in the relationship. Like, it's, it's hard for the person who can't lose the weight to be happy for the other person. And the person who's losing the weight almost feels guilty about having made the change. And suddenly they no longer have a relationship. And I, I think it's an easy example to understand, and it happens in addiction recovery all the time. All the time.

It happens in addiction and recovery. I think it happens— I think you find your true friends. You want to find your true friends, you go tell somebody something really good that's happened, and you see the reaction to it. Are they genuinely excited, like, I can't wait for this, this is amazing? Or not. And that happened even not just with my recovery, um, from addiction and ongoing recovery, but also in the community that I had with complex regional pain syndrome. I was like in this community with people who have this nerve disease. And I remember when I was on The Doctors and, you know, they edit things out when you're in media. And I had some— I thought that was like my support system. And I had some naysayers and some people that came out really hard on me, like, you can't get through pain with your mindset and moving your body. And I'm like, well, it works for me. I get through it. I didn't say it will end— it gets rid of all my pain, but it helps me get through it. And it— I think it was kind of a mirror to some things that maybe they weren't doing. It had everything to do with them and not me.

Yeah.

You know, and so it's hard to kind of have to cut that cord. I did. I had to like cut the cord. I had to get out of that group actually and be like, I don't want to be around negativity and that. And so I really had to— I think you find out your true blue friends when you're going through, uh, success or failures.

Yeah, no, I think you said it so well. And I, and I think we always have to Try to be compassionate about other people's pain and the pain they're going through when they're using harsh words for us, you know. And the lesson I learned so long ago is never read the comments. That's kind of a, you know, it's an old rule. And I'm actually not kidding. Whatever I'm on, I love being on podcasts. I love writing things. I love— but when you expose yourself openly and honestly, You know, there are tons of people out there who just seem to live their lives, uh, in order to criticize other people.

I just had an experience. I just flew back in town. I was speaking at an event in Denver, and I'm not one of those rah-rah motivation kind of speakers. I love your style. I love how you were doing a talk for Google, I think it was, and you were like, I threw out the scripted talk, like a couple of days or even the night before, and you said, I just wanted to keep it real, like give it to them straight. And that's the kind of speaker I am. And I definitely have speaking points.

Right.

And I went over it for a month, you know, going over exactly what I'm going to say. And then I get on stage, and sometimes, especially when you have 45 minutes to an hour, you have a little bit more time. I kind of can get off on a tangent, go over, and then I can reel it back into the topic. But I got really like raw, real. And I shared something that, you know, went on with some— someone very close to me, how we don't always get the support that we might want from someone that's closest to us, whether it's somebody in our family or a best friend. And I actually had someone get up on stage and make a comment, like a negative comment about that. And I leaned over to this very successful coach that was one of the other speakers, and I said, Did you get that from my talk? Did it seem like, you know, this or that? He goes, not at all. I said, I mean, how many people struggle in their relationships when they are achieving success and it's almost a threat? Because it does create fear in loved ones, like, oh, are they going to get big? Are they going to leave me? And so it is hard sometimes when you're putting yourself out there. So my next question for you is How did you start to publicly share your sobriety story? Did you ever have a lot of shame about your addiction, or were you always this like forthcoming and this is who I am?

Well, first of all, I'm sorry that happened to you on, on that stage. You don't do that, you know, to anybody. Even if they disagreed with you, they could have come up to you privately and said, hey, you know, whatever. So that's just, uh, again, one of those lessons that baffles me that people No matter what, they were wrong. I mean, and it made them look bad. I mean, so just always—

It was crazy. Like, everybody was like, wow. And I had somebody come up to me and say, you just gave the most inspiring talk I've ever heard, and I cannot believe that other person got on stage and said that about you.

Yeah.

I was like, you know what recovery taught me? I tell you what, I wish everyone in the world had the— would study the 12 steps. It really is just such a great way of living. But it taught me that, you know what, obviously there's something that they're going through in their life.

Yeah.

And it has something to do with them and not necessarily me. And I mean, I'm more than willing to see my part in things, but I was just like, but be a nice human. But so thank you for that. But yeah, I just— I had so much shame about— especially because being married to a cop, he was like, no, no, no, no, you are not an alcoholic.

Right.

Like, you do not want— no, don't admit that. Like, because he arrested people like me.

Yeah. Or, you know, well, which by the way though, I mean, and I know you, I know you're way beyond this and you know all this, but like, that's, that again is like, oh, so, you know, cops don't drink. Cops don't like— there's so much to dig into there that this isn't the time or place. But I mean, that actually is the answer to your question you just asked me. It's like, when did I decide I was going to share openly? And it's because It really happened right from the very start. You know, it just— I got a chance early on in my recovery to speak weirdly at a— I was in a fraternity in college, which I'm actually always a little bit embarrassed by because I'm sort of the opposite of what you'd consider to be your kind of typical fraternity guy. But at least stereotypical, you know, deal. And that's where I learned how to drink properly in college, you know, because the drinking age was 18 when I went to college in North Carolina. In the early '80s. And I gave this talk that was the 100-year celebration for our national fraternity. So there were a couple of thousand people in the audience. And it was actually a terrible talk. It was the first big talk I ever gave. And I— it was terrible because of one thing. I was so inexperienced as a speaker that I thought this talk— I had an hour— needed to start from basically the day I was born Oh. To that very day. Like I needed to tell them because like they needed context. They needed to understand my story. Now, as a much more seasoned speaker, I understand my job is to tell 2 or 3 really good stories, give an overall context. And if people want to learn more about you, there's about a million ways they can do that. So, you know, I've changed stylistically, but what I did do was literally dump All of my shit on that stage all those years ago, and it felt so freaking good. And what I actually did is then I started to learn to become a speaker, both in it within 12-step recovery. Because as you know too, a super safe way to learn how to speak is you— if you, if you're the one sharing at a meeting, even if it's just a short share, or if you're the speaker for a speaker meeting. You know, it's your opportunity to tell your story. But I did it in Rotary Clubs and Kiwanis, and like, I just started to hone my, my craft. And what I recognized so early on was that when I told stories of struggle, I got so much support and strength and comments and everything else. And if I told only stories of success, People were like golf clap, you know, polite, you know, polite. Oh, that was such a nice story. Thank you. And you know, and which is fine, but that's not what I was after. Did you ever see the movie Eminem was in called 8 Mile? Do you remember that movie back in the day? So it's a weird reference, but I think it's a great example. So anybody who's ever seen 8 Mile, this is like Rocky except with rappers. You got these 2 guys who are arch enemies and they have these raps. battles, which is basically like one guy rapping and talking crap about the other guy for 90 seconds, and then the other guy gets his turn. The ultimate scene in that film was the last one where they're having their final battle, and Eminem gets the mic first, and he basically spends his 90 seconds saying, I live in a trailer with my mom, my best friend had sex with my girlfriend, this and that. Like, he He took all of his stuff and he dumped it out. And the other guy actually didn't even take his turn. He walked off stage because there was nothing left to say. It's a really effective way to go through life. If I'm telling you I went to prison and I'm a recovering alcoholic and sometimes I'm an asshole and sometimes— like all of the— if I'm telling you these things, what is there left for you to say about me? Or it's not—

Exactly. You own it and then nobody can use it against you. you. It's so true. And it's like, that's why when I say I get up on stage sometimes— and I was just talking to one of my sober sisters yesterday on the phone, and I was telling her, I said, every time I would get together with my dad, he would always say, why don't you have a beer? Just have a beer. I'm like, Dad, I don't drink. Dad, I don't drink. And, and finally she goes, what made him stop? And I said, I think it was the day that he kept offering me a beer, and I looked at him and I said, Dad, I'm an alcoholic. He was like, oh, not much more he could say to that. Wasn't like he could say, oh, well, can't you just have one? Or what, you know? So it was like I put it out there, and there is such freedom in that. Yeah, it's like you feel like any chains that were holding you back are just released.

Yeah, well, if somebody knew you were allergic to peanuts, they wouldn't keep offering you peanuts. I mean, these are not— these are not hard analogies, you know? And yeah, People with alcohol, because he would be more comfortable if you had a beer. You wouldn't be more comfortable, but he would be. And that's just— it's human nature. The other thing about it is we actually think— and this is the funny part, I love human nature, man, I love talking about it— like, we think that other people are sitting around thinking about us.

Oh my goodness.

And you know how much they are actually thinking about us? I mean, basically next to zero. Like, I mean, the same amount that we sit around thinking about other people. I mean, because we're basically self-centered beings on this planet. And so, uh, we think that our stuff is so shameful and important and devastating, and if anybody knew it, they wouldn't like us, or whatever it is. And it, it's— I've just found it to be the exact opposite. You know, the more, the more that I open up and share that, even today, almost 30 years clean and sober, you think I don't sit around sometimes and think Man, my life sucks. Of course I do. I'm a normal person that has down days, and like I don't have it all figured out. What I do know is that experience has taught me that the vast majority of time those feelings aren't real, and they will pass by. You know, and that's the lesson that I that I continue to always hammer is to try to you know try to let those when I'm stuck. And, and we talked about this before. When you're stuck, help somebody else get unstuck, you know.

Yeah.

And, you know, it's that, that mantra, to keep it, you have to give it away, that I talked about in Dallas when we were together, you know. And it's this idea— my very first sponsor, he was a— he was 75 years old when I got sober at 29. And, you know, he only lived a few more years, but he was the one who said, you know, the only thing you can ever do when you feel like your life is going nowhere is help somebody else get where they're want— where they're wanting to go, and you will magically be transformed out of your own nonsense.

It's so true, Charlie. I mean, and I, you know, I— when I was in the hospital after my motorcycle accident, I was not yet an alcoholic. I, I had no idea I was an al— and I was never really a big drinker. I was so centered on probably Probably addicted to my running and my career. And so in the hospital, I noticed that I would feel better when I would make calls, even though I was in the hospital, didn't know if tomorrow was the day they were going to amputate my leg. When I would make calls to my clients, when I would help the nurses and give them exercise tips or sit there and let them talk to me about all their troubles and offer them advice like my grandmother would do, give me.

Wow.

I felt better. So it was a way for me to stop thinking about, you know, the self-pity and I'm a victim and get out of myself and do good for someone else. So even in the hospital bed, I noticed how much better I felt about that. But so I so appreciate you sharing that sometimes with all your accolades, with all the amazing things you've done, you've done with your best-selling book, with this documentary, with— I mean, I mean, all the races, the ultramarathons, the incredible things that you've done, even with almost, you know, nearly 30 years next month of sobriety, that sometimes you go, God, this is hard, or my life sucks, or you have these feelings and how to get through those moments. Because that's the thing. It's not like we have it all figured out and we're just like, our life is great. It's about the resilience that we have and the tools and the resilience that we we've built up so that when hard times do hit, we can get through those moments. So I just wondered, for me personally, I'm just like wondering is like when you're speaking, cuz you've spoken on some of the biggest stages in the world, do you have moments before you speak that you get nervous or you start like doubting yourself or imposter syndrome comes in? Or you're like, how the heck did I get invited to speak at Google? Or do you ever get those moments?

I certainly did early on. I, I will say, and it's not, you know, it's not false bravado, I will take 5 or 10 minutes before, uh, any big talk especially, and I'll do some breathwork and meditation and praying even, you know, which is kind of all the same thing, you know. I mean, they're They're wrapped in different packages, but in essence, it's about trying to connect with whether it's a higher power or your own inner strength. And I've gotten good through the years, especially on the bigger talks. And the Tony Robbins one was a big one for me, partly because it was very limited for time. And like you said a little while ago, if I've got an hour, I can kind of verbally wander around and interrupt myself and tell a couple of extra stories. If I've got 25 minutes, Or whatever it is.

It's hard. It's like you have to get right to the point.

People can read about the prison stuff, you know. I mean, it was crazy thing that happened to me, you know, 10 or 12 years ago, long into my sobriety, by the way.

Which was crazy because I feel like that was like—

it was a terrible—

how many people would be locked up if—

Yeah, it was a terrible, unfair thing that happened to me about, you know, mortgage fraud, basically. And it was, you know, it shouldn't have happened, it, whatever. But it— part of it was the timing on, uh, in the world, you know, it's 2010. And like, it was the timing because I'm sure the government was looking for that. Yeah, the government was looking for people to blame. And, you know, and I got, I got stuck. But anyway, the point of that is when I have a short talk, like 15 minutes, the hardest thing to do I have to talk about prison. That's the one thing I have to talk about every time. And the reason I say that is I don't ever want someone to listen to me tell, you know, my journey from addiction into sobriety, then into running and doing projects with Matt Damon and, you know, all this kind of stuff. And then they're like, man, that was a great talk. And then they're Googling me. And the first thing that pops up is they see, you know, that I went to prison. Like, I don't want them to think I didn't even hear that from some other place. I want them to hear it because if I didn't say it on stage, then it feels like I hid it from them.

Yeah.

I didn't think of that. Yeah. So I want to be able to, at a very minimum, even in a very short talk, I will at least dump that out there. That way, if they choose to take a few extra minutes and kind of look for the meaning, they can find it.

But I like how you word it. You also say when I spent time on, or my federal holiday.

Holiday. Yeah. Yeah, you know, it changed my life actually for the better. I mean, yeah, crazy to say.

Well, you know, I— it really resonated with me because of my brother being on death row here in Texas. And so when you shared that, I was like, wow, look at your— look at what you did in prison, because I would love to just talk a little bit about— yeah, you And if y'all want to hear more about how it's crazy how you even ended up there, um, but you had a sense of humor about it when you first went in. You're like, oh, if you don't have my reservation, I can come back, because you like self-walked in.

Yeah, thank you.

You are such— you're brilliant at and gifted, and I think it's because of your, your heart and all the work that you do on a daily basis to continue to, to recover and share your experience, strength, and hope. But even in prison, you created community. Who would've thought? So can you take us back to like, you're in prison, you're like, holy cow, I'm sentenced for what was it, 2 years? Was it 2 years?

Yeah, just about. Yep. Yeah. And I mean, look, I love what you just said. And I think the thing is humor is the through line in my life. And somewhere along the line, I figured out that it's way easier And when I, when I laugh about something really hard in my life, um, or even in someone else's life, as long as I feel like I have permission to do that, um, I mean, it's not for me to minimize their pain, but I can minimize mine all I want. And I'm not like, I'm not just like saying somehow that it's not painful or that whatever, but prison taught me many, many things. And I'm gonna take a quick step back. So So just for the listeners, because we're, we're not gonna have time to go through all of it, but just for the listeners, you know, I, I got sober. I used running as a way to really help my sobriety. I started doing races all over the world, and I was winning these big, long 100-milers and hundreds of miles. And, uh, not always winning, but participating in these really hard things. And I learned the lessons of of, you know, kind of suffering. And I, I got this amazing job on Extreme Makeover: Home Edition. I was a senior producer on this television show that everybody watched for a number of years.

Mm-hmm.

And this was kind of a fluke. The creator of the show and I became friends because of a race that I did in Borneo. And years later, he calls me and, and, and asks me to work on the show. And so, so my life is going pretty well. And then I decide I'm going to run across the Sahara Desert. I do this huge run, almost 5,000 miles. Matt Damon's my partner.

And we could literally do a whole podcast just on the Sahara Desert.

I'm hitting the highlights here. But the Sahara, you know, taught me so many lessons about perseverance and about focusing on the day that you're in. You know, as I, as I always say, the only miles that I could run were the ones that were right in front of me. And that lesson sticks with me every single day when I feel overwhelmed. But so I do this run. Matt Damon and I create a clean water nonprofit, which today is called water.org. It's the world's largest clean water nonprofit. And it all came out of this crazy idea that I had that running across the Sahara Desert could be meaningful. And in truth, all I ever wanted to do was just see if I could do it. I, it was just this thing and I just wanted to see, am I capable of doing So this big thing put me on the map. You know, I got on NPR and the morning news shows, and I got my 15 minutes of fame. And a particular federal agent, an IRS agent in Greensboro, North Carolina, where I live, got interested in me because of the film. Don't know why. I'll never know why. But long story short, I become the only person in the United States, the only borrower in the United States to be charged with overstating my income on a home loan application.

Which, seriously, who reads all that crap?

The irony is, I was found not guilty of that. So I went to trial, which nobody goes to trial against the feds because you're going to lose. Like, it's a fixed game. 99.5% of cases that go in front of a federal court is, you know, a loser. And no country on the planet, you know, convicts its own citizens at the same rate that we do here in the United States. We, we love to point fingers at China and Russia and other places, which of course, they have their problems and maybe they're just taking people out back and shooting them. I don't know, which would in fact be worse. But the point of that is there came a day when I got sentenced to 21 months in federal prison. Fair or unfair didn't matter anymore.

Yeah.

It wasn't, I mean, I could spend my life Focusing on me being wronged before I could figure out how I was gonna get on with the next phase of my life. And my—

That right there is the biggest life lesson. I mean, we need to shout that off the rooftops.

Yeah. 'Cause we get so stuck in what happened to us and forget the fact that we still have an opportunity to write the next chapter for ourselves. Nobody else could control my happiness, even in prison. That was completely up to me. As you know, I did what I always do. I started to run. You know, there's 500 men in this prison in Beckley, West Virginia. And, you know, there's no running. There's a little path around the recreation yard. And—

But, you know, I—

I just started to run.

I love what you did when you first went in and you walked in and you're like, do you know how— like, you saw the run, the little path, and you asked somebody, What's the distance on that? And they're like, I don't know. Like, we're in prison.

Who's measuring distance? Who cares? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I wanted to know, of course. And, and, you know, we were in lockdown a lot too, so you couldn't go outside and I would run in place in my cell for 5 or 6 hours at a time sometimes. And, uh, I love to tell the story that people, you know, very often thought I was nuts and sort of being the, you know, the middle-aged dude in prison that people thought was crazy was actually a good thing because Basically, everybody just left me alone. It's like, don't screw with that guy. Something's wrong with him.

Something's off with him. He runs in place.

But what happened is, is, you know, the same thing that happens, as I like to say, whether it's in addiction recovery or in other parts of our lives. And that is this, this idea of attraction rather than promotion, which you know very well. And if you are constantly promoting your lifestyle, people will be repelled by that. Some people might have questions But in general, what people want to see is you living your life. They want to see the benefits of the things that you're doing. They don't want to hear you talk. If they want to hear more about it, they can ask you, you know, and that's what it's for. And so I'm just running every day. I never one time go up to some guy and say, hey, you know, looks like you got a little weight problem, you know, why don't you come run with me? Because that would be a really bad idea.

Prison, especially in prison, right? You know what, Charlie, I think that goes even for anybody who's listening that does an MLM for healthy products or supplements or anything. And I see them promote and they're always like holding the drink up or take these vitamins or, or whatever it is. It's like if you just show— like, don't sell the product, sell the destination almost.

Yeah, everybody knows they're being sold something if you're holding up the product. You know, it doesn't mean you can't show a picture of you drinking the product, but what it really needs to do— there is no such thing as a product that is going to fix your life. I should say that again. You know, movement, getting out there and doing things is, is the lifesaver, you know, more than anything else. The supplements— and you know, I told you right before we started I needed to make myself a, a green smoothie. I mean, this is my own, you I'm not selling that. That's just in my blender in the house. And I live it every day. And I go out and I run. So in prison even, all I did was run and people made fun of me. The name of my book is called Running Man. And it's not because I run a lot. It's because some other guy in prison yelled out something that I won't repeat on your podcast because it's, you know, not PG. But that's how Running Man sort of became my nickname. But here's what happened is over time, People started to see my life being better than their life, even in that terrible situation. And so guys started coming up to me and saying, hey, can you teach me how to run? And by the time I left there, you know, a year and a half later, you know, I had 50 guys in my running group running with me every single day.

That's incredible.

I had a dozen guys who lost more than 100 pounds. I had 25 guys doing yoga with me out there on the softball field 3 days a week.

Who would've thought?

Never. When I left, guys were coming up and hugging me and crying, and they're thanking me for what I did for them. That's the lesson of sobriety and sponsorship and of just being of service to others. And we can be of service just by telling our stories and living our lives openly, where other people who are trying desperately to find their way can hopefully take strength From something that I'm doing, that's the lesson there. I didn't do any of it in prison for them. I did it for me because it was my way to get through that terrible situation. I could have sat in my cell and marked off days on the calendar and moped around, and instead I made the best of the situation. I read books. I exercised. I wrote letters. I talked to guys in prison, many of whom. were there for— I thought what happened to me was unfair. You got guys that are in there for 25 years for a tiny little bag of cocaine or something. I mean, something just so small, but they're African American or they're Hispanic, they don't have a lawyer, they didn't speak the language, and the guy's getting 25 years. His whole life is taken away from something. And I think what happened to me is unfair. I know that you relate to this too. You know, what you've gone through in your life is more pain than any person should have to endure. But you know what? You could name me 10 people right now who you've seen their stories and they had it worse than you, or they're not alive because they had the same accident you had and they didn't survive it. Which is worse? You know, I mean, it's not hard to figure out the answer to that.

Yeah. And I think that sometimes when we can look at our struggles and former struggles that we have overcome, it builds our strength and our confidence to move forward and get through the next and the next, just one day at a time. You have so many incredible stories, and in the book you have so many incredible stories. I want to celebrate your sobriety coming up, but before we get to that, I wanted to ask you, do you ever have days now Where you've thought, oh, I wanna drink, or, oh, I wanna escape that. I wanna escape this pain.

Absolutely. You know what I mean? It's, it's, you know, look, I'm happy to say that doesn't happen very often. And just a few weeks ago, somebody asked me, and this I'm sure happens to you too, they'll ask a very open, honest question. It's like, couldn't you just have a beer? And I'm like, yeah, I probably could. Like today, I could probably have one beer. I could probably have one beer tomorrow. I could probably have one, you know, I, I might do that for a whole year, but I know for sure there would come a day when I would have 2 beers. I know it 100%. And then there would come a day I'd have 3 and 5 and all the beer, and I would head back down. I just know it. I am not a moderate person. And so—

No, you're not.

Well, so to torture myself with that idea of moderation It literally is like me sitting around thinking about maybe if I train hard enough, I could win the Boston Marathon. I'm sorry. I'm a good runner. That's not going to happen. You know, I'm not going to win the Boston Marathon. So it's this thing. So I have those days when I sort of think to myself, man, it would be nice to be able to escape into something else. And that's what running is for. I used COVID to become fairly much an expert in holotropic breathwork. So I do deep Therapeutic breathwork every single day. I'll share with you offline some of the things that I'm doing, and you could even share with your listeners because I I just know there are ways for me to reach in a way I guess that same escape of sorts. I can find my way into a peaceful state of mind that's not about blocking anything because of course drugs and alcohol for me were all about being invisible. Having no feelings. Like, if I had a feeling, good or bad, I just drank or drugged it away.

Mm-hmm.

You know, now when I have a feeling, I have to sit in that. I got nowhere to go. And so what I do is put on my running shoes or I go lay down on my mat. And I know that I have the tools and I know that those are the things I need to do. And I think that's the hardest part. In a person's journey through sobriety is finding those tools for yourself. We spend 99.9% of our time or more as sober people preparing for that 0.00001% of the time when we are tempted to go back in that other direction. It's almost never on my mind, but when it is, it's a very powerful thought.

It is.

And so it's like building up my armaments and preparing for that battle. And if I let down my guard and I don't do things like sleep, hydrate, exercise, have therapy, talk to other people, be of service to others, if I'm not doing all those things, I'm setting myself up for the out-of-the-blue thing that comes at me. That is gonna rock my world, and then I'm susceptible to relapse. So I have to always be diligent about making sure that I'm taking those steps every single day, you know, to be as, as healthy and happy as I can be in preparation for the time when I'm not gonna be, because life is going to slam me back down to the ground at some point, because that's just the nature of being human.

Mm-hmm. And you know what, Charlie, I think there's probably So many people out there that you have no idea how much you've touched them. I know just yesterday I was at the market. So talking about getting enough sleep, eating, you know, drinking enough water, moving my body enough— I hadn't done any of it. I had a late flight, just got in. I was tired, I was hungry. It was a holiday, and my husband was like, oh yeah, I need you to go to the store and get all the stuff to grill and get beer for your dad and do all these things. And I actually had a thought. I was on the aisle and I'm like, oh, that wine. Well, maybe I could have a— I really— that thought was powerful.

Yeah.

And you came to mind. And I thought, there is no way that I am going to take a drink because I get to interview Charlie freaking Engle. And I would not— I wouldn't be able to have like the confidence even to do that and show up authentically. And so you really saved me. I had that thought and—

Yeah, just thank you.

Hearing your story and knowing I was going to get to see you. And so some of the things I know, like you were telling me before we started the interview that you have something called Whoop that is really— it's like this new latest technology because I believe Accountability is one of the things that if I didn't have that accountability with my sponsor, my sober sisters, that we connect every single day with the gratitude list that we share with one another. But what is— can you tell me a little bit more about this Whoop?

It's called Whoop, right? It is W-H-O-O-P. And I know you wear an Oura Ring, and this is all in the same category of wearable device like Apple Watch or Fitbit was sort of the, the first, like, best known in this category. But Whoop has put a tremendous amount of money and effort into the addiction recovery space.

Yeah.

And I'm happy to say that in partnership with me, and together we are looking at ways to help people have accountability and long-term sobriety. Not like somebody's watching you and gonna, like, write you a note and say, hey, lazy, you know, get out and work out. But you know what I've learned in sobriety is that the people that I've sponsored through the years, which has been a lot of people, I still have to before having a wearable device that they have one and I have one before having that, I had only one choice. I had to call them or they call me and I ask a question. How are you doing? I mean, look, I'm not saying that addicts are liars, but we are not great when we ask that question. We do. Really mean it, but we rely so heavily on the other person giving an honest answer. And again, I'm not even saying they're giving a dishonest one, but that's assuming that a person even knows themselves. Like, if I ask you how you slept last night, you don't have a wearable device, you don't have any of that, you have a vague notion of how you slept. You might be thinking, well, I— gosh, I remember laying there and it was 2 o'clock in the morning, I hadn't gone to sleep yet. Like, that's the gauge you're using to see whether you got a good sleep. What wearable devices do, it's an accountability tool, as you said. It allows me, for someone that I'm coaching, and I mean like life coaching, not exercise coaching, even though that's part of it. For someone that I'm coaching, I get a chance to see that for 2 nights in a row, they haven't slept well. So instead, I can send them a text and say, hey, you know, Dave, it looks like you haven't slept well the last couple of nights. Here's a meditation from Deepak Chopra, or here's an idea You know, I also see that you've missed your exercise. Maybe if you have time today, you could just get out for 20 minutes and do a quick walk, do a breathing exercise, whatever. The point of it is, and here's the big part, Amberly, even if they ignore me completely and they don't do any of it, they have been seen by me.

Mm-hmm.

Like, and that's, I think, the thing that we all suffer from. We feel invisible to other people. people so often, whether we're a day sober or 30 years sober, there's that invisibility that goes along with being human. And to have someone else reach out and say, dude, I see that workout you had yesterday, then you got a great night's sleep, way to go, keep up the good work—

Mm-hmm.

Like, just that simple thing, instead of relying on them to tell me what's going on. So it doesn't have every answer, but it gives me a lot of basic information about someone To be honest with you, I say often now that I can predict relapse.

Really?

And it's a provocative— well, it's a provocative, outlandish statement, but if I do see someone in a terrible sleep pattern, not exercising, all these other markers, it doesn't mean they're going to relapse. But if they're in early recovery, like maybe they just left rehab a few weeks earlier, those are all the signs of somebody who's maybe in trouble. And if you can get ahead of that, And reach out to them because maybe they're not being honest with their sponsor, maybe they're not talking to anybody. But if they're willing to let me work with them and I can see those things, I can probably stop the car from crashing before it does.

It's so true. And I mean, it's that keeping it basic— never get too lonely, too hungry, or too tired— whether you're sober, sober curious, or Maybe you're an entrepreneur that tends to go all grit and don't give yourself as much grace. You know, that's the reason I started wearing a device that tells me how much sleep I'm getting and the quality of sleep, because I had to start taking rest as like, make it a part of my business strategy to get more rest. And so I love that idea. So where can people find that? Can they find that through you? Do you have a link for that?

They can go in the show notes. By the way, my website is my name, charlieengel.com. All my social media links are there, blogs, videos, a few of my talks. You know, it's a typical website, and my email and phone number is right there in the contact. It's me directly. I don't have people. So—

And you look at his website, y'all, we didn't even get into all the different shows, news, documentary, everything. We go to his website charlieengel.com. Go to his Instagram @charlieengel and you will see all of the amazing things he's done. There are so many stories and so many directions we could have gone on this show. I literally could interview you 12 times and there would still be more to cover. So yeah, check out his website. If you're out running or at the gym or you're driving, you can check out the show notes and also find His information. If you are, you know, forgetful or like me, I'm like I have to go and take a screenshot of it is what I do. I take screenshots. But if there's one part of this episode that you just loved, share it on your social media and tag me at Amberly Lago Motivation and Charlie Engel because I see that. I run all my social media and I will share that. This you give so much hope, not just inspiration. But hope and encouragement and real tools for people to apply to their life that are life-changing. And you have a big event coming up for your 30th.

I do.

Briety, tell us about that before we go.

So it won't surprise people that my way of celebrating is a little different than others. So every year I run for the same number of hours to equal, uh, how long I've been sober. So I will actually run for 30 straight hours on July 23rd and 24th. So hopefully this podcast will be out before then. Uh, and I'm gonna make It out before then. You're gonna do that. So it's up at a treatment center called Ashley, which is up in a little town in Maryland. Been around for 40 years. I would call it top 5 treatment centers in the country. It's an amazing place. It's a nonprofit, so we're raising money for continued research and addiction recovery, but also for scholarships for people who can't afford treatment, which is a lot of Because it's one thing, yeah, people say, why don't you go to rehab? Well, if you don't have any money or you don't have insurance, you know, you try going to rehab. You can't get in.

And so that's what's crazy how expensive it is.

Yeah. Yeah. So this is about, you know, this run is my way of celebrating my 30 years, but also inviting other people to come celebrate with me their own recovery, the loss of a loved one. I mean, And look, every single person listening to this right now, whether you're in recovery or not, you know somebody or know of someone who has not survived this disease. There's a lot of people that need help. 90% of the people that need help out there actually don't ever get help. And so this is just my way of honoring and celebrating my own sobriety, but also reminding others out there that there is a path forward. And you just have to commit to it and make some changes. But it definitely is the case. If I can do it, anyone can.

Oh, well, I just love all the work that you're doing. Um, how can people get involved with this?

Yeah, that also is on my website. So if you just go to my website, you'll see this 30-hour run. You can do it virtually. You don't have to do 30 hours. You can walk for 30 minutes at your house. You know, you could— you can enter this thing, you ride 30 minutes on your Peloton, you can do a 30-minute yoga class, you can— there's no limit to what can be done. And it's just a way of specifically on July 23rd and 24th— the 23rd is my actual birthday, but I've been sober long enough that, you know, for 30 hours I can't fit that in one day. So yes, yeah, so it goes over a weekend.

So are people gonna actually try to run Are they just gonna be there for—

I have about 50 people that are actually coming to run the entire 30 hours with me in Maryland. Then a lot, probably 500 or 600 more will be coming to run. It's on a 2.5-mile loop, so people can come in and out as they please. They can walk, they can sit in a chair and make fun of me. They can do anything. They can throw— they can throw grapes at me. This is just a very weird way of celebrating And it's what I do, you know, and it's what I love to do.

When you're telling me that, I'm looking at my calendar because I'm still old school and use this paper calendar. I'm like, can I go to Maryland? So I'm seriously—

well, you are invited. I would love to have you there. And I mean, you and I spoke, we're going to do something on Instagram, maybe a couple of things where we can have a chat about movement, you know, in recovery. I always say that, you know, The addiction recovery industry is kind of mired in talk therapy, which is very important. But the fact of the matter is you need to move your body. You got to move your body. And it's equally as important as trauma therapy and talk therapy. You have to move your body. If you don't feel good, you can't get well. So, all right. Thank you so much.

That is such a powerful way to end. Thank you. And y'all check out charlieengel.com. I'm really hoping I'm going to see you, um, for the race.

We're going to make it happen.

I'll keep you posted. Thank you so much for being on.

Okay. My pleasure. All right. See you later.