When Achievement Doesn't Feel Like Freedom with Jessica Smarro

How did you get into the work that you're doing and start to even write your book, In Pursuit?

I go back to childhood stuff, right? Like, we all have a story, and I grew up in a family where I looked around and I was like, this ain't it, this ain't it. I had family members who were in and out of jail and prison and a lot of addiction. I always felt like I was in pursuit of something else, right?

What is the first thing that you suggest for them to do to start to improve? their life and spark more joy.

If you're tired and exhausted, it's not because you're doing too much, it's because you're doing too little of what lights you up. So the idea of when we're burned out, we're like, yeah, there's a really good chance you are not aligned to what you actually want.

What they really want, is it journaling? Is it sitting in silence? Is it prayer? Is there anything that you teach them to do to help them with that?

In the book, the way I map out the book is the prison, The path and the pursuit. And in the middle section, in the path, I go through essentially my freedom formula. And one of those is a section called staying with the emotion and learning how to have conversations with your body, learning how to do listening sessions so that, again, if you feel like I'm a floating head, I don't know if my wisdom speaks to me. Yeah, there's a whole system there where you practice.

Hey, y'all, thank you so much for tuning into the Amberly Lago Show. I have been really excited to have this amazing guest on. And especially, I don't know if you're like me and you've ever felt like you've hit a goal, you've checked all the boxes, you've done all the things right, but you still feel like there's a little something missing. Um, this conversation is definitely for you. Um, she speaks directly to women who's high achieving on the outside, but pretty, but quietly on the inside may be asking, why doesn't this feel like freedom? Um, she speaks to that woman. She speaks to me. And so selfishly, I have a lot of questions to ask her. She's a licensed therapist, life and mindset coach, speaker, and the host of the Unblocked Podcast. And, um, she has a new book that I have read and I am so excited to dive in and share it with you today. Um, it's called In Pursuit. Today's guest is Jessica.

So excited.

Tomorrow. Thank you for being here, Jess.

I'm so excited to be here. Thank you for that introduction. I always think it's fun. Like we should just have people walk around talking about us, just like, okay, I feel amazing. And I'm ready to just chit chat with you about all the things.

Well, yeah. And before we started recording, I was like, I think your book and your message and all you teach through your courses and your coaching, and as you speak on stages is so needed right now. Um, I, I recently did a post. about, um, I asked ChatGPT to roast my 2025 year and it was shocking what came up. And it was like, Amberly taught rest and resilience, but she lived it in the moment while she was traveling across the United States on teleporting from stage to stage. And I was like, oh, it kind of called me out, but in a good way. And I did a newsletter about it in the post and I had, um, So many people, mostly women actually, reach out to me and say, oh my goodness, thank you so much because I've been checking all the boxes and I feel like I've ran a million marathons and I'm still running and I'm exhausted and this is my permission to rest.

Mm-hmm.

How did you get into the work that you're doing and start to even write your book In Pursuit? Um, what led you to go, you know what, I need to write a book about this?

Oh gosh. So there's 2 things that came up when you asked that question. So one, when you ask like kind of what got me into this work and being in pursuit of something, I go back to childhood stuff, right? Like we all have a story and I grew up in a family where I looked around and I was like, this ain't it. This ain't it. I had family members who are in and out of jail and prison and a lot of addiction and I always felt like I was in pursuit of something else, right? And so getting out of that, getting, having a different life. And so then I did, right? I got out of it. I, I was valedictorian. I was the first in my family to go to college. And then I was like, why stop there? Let's go on and go to grad school and have, get the good on paper job, the good on paper marriage. I had a job that took me to the White House. I was doing amazing stuff. And I remember having a moment where I looked around, I was like, but it feels like I'm living a life in black and white. Like, it feels like I'm living a half-lived life. And one day my husband asked me, just like a casual morning coffee talk, he was like, what are you most afraid of? And just what came out of my mouth surprised me actually, because what I said was, I'm afraid that I'm never gonna actually enjoy my life.

Wow.

Right? Because I had, you know, I had, as a kid, I was like, This is the life that I want. This is exactly like a home. I can come into my house. It is peaceful. I know what to expect. It's consistent. I have a life that looked on paper like everything I had wanted. All the boxes had been checked. And yet I was, it was still striving. I was still, something was missing. I only knew how to be efforting towards something. I didn't know how to be in the having. I didn't know how to be in the receipt of it. And so I was like, we need, it's a skillset to do this. We need to learn how to, Be in pursuit because we're ambitious people, right? We don't want to just do nothing. We want to be in pursuit of something, but could we actually give ourselves the gift of what it's like to have the things we're going after? So that's why I wrote the book.

Wow. And I think so many people listening right now can relate to that. And I very much so can the way that I was raised. And I was like, this is not for me. I'm getting out of this small town. I'm going to go make something of my life. And in fact, you know, it was funny. I was just in bed last night thinking about Wow, where have the last 10 years gone? Because I started speaking and writing books and all the things like 10 years ago, and it's like in a flash, it's just flown by. And I have this one, this is the last bit of time I have before my youngest daughter goes off to college. And so I've decided to really just spend some quality time with her, um, in these last moments I have before she's off to school and I'm an empty nester and then also focus on my health. And I think that so many women push and push and push, and they're about the grit, and you have to do so many things if you're a mom, a wife, or, you know, a friend, a sister, whatever that may be, and work at the same time. It's a lot of boxes to check. And a lot of times we put ourselves last on the list. Do you have a lot of clients that come to you that are like, I'm not feeling fulfilled. I'm feeling so burnt out. I'm hanging on by a thread. And if so, what is the first thing that you suggest for them to do to start to improve their life and spark more joy?

Yeah, that's a great question. And the answer is yes. In short, yes, I have the people coming that are saying that. And here's what I will often ask. What do you want? Right. And you can imagine, right? I asked that question and people look at me often with like deer in the headlights. And one woman said to me, um, I don't even know how to answer that question.

Wow.

Right. I know you don't, right? Because if you think about all of the roles you just mapped out, all of the things that we do, so much of it is externally focused, right? And we can have a whole separate, probably podcast episode on the social conditioning about why we find ourselves in those situations. As women, we are often conditioned to be caretakers and the givers and the, we're the ones look, we're looking out around us to see what is needed and making sure all of that is tended to. And so it's not a first thought we have of. Let me go inside. What is it that I actually want? And a lot of times when we're feeling burnout and depleted and exhausted, it's like, what's that quote? Um, somebody asked like, um, don't ask what the world needs, ask what you want, and then go do more of that. Like, what often we need is, um, to be doing something that actually lights us up. It's actually, or here was the other quote that was coming was, if you're tired and exhausted, it's not because you're doing too much, it's because you're doing too little of what lights you up. So the idea of when we're burned out, we're like, yeah, there's a really good chance you are not aligned to what you actually want. And for most of us, that is a terrifying question because we're like, we don't, I don't, I don't know what I want. And some of the reason is because if you listen, if you're listening and you're like me, when I was a kid, I thought for sure there was a giant rulebook, capital R rulebook somewhere with like an appendix answer key in the back. There was just a rule what we're supposed to do to get it all right. So it never occurred to me to go within. I just needed to know what the rule book was saying. And then if I do that, then I get to be okay. Then I get to be accepted. Then I'm approved of, then I'm safe.

Right.

So again, when we're, if you're exhausted, that for the person who's coming and exhausted, what I'll often ask is, what do you want?

Yes.

I just want to say that's probably a scary question. If you, if you hear that and you like get a little nauseous, that's okay. That's okay. Yeah.

Well, you know what it made me think of is that meme that is, uh, one of my favorite movies ever is The Notebook. And where he's like, what do you want? What do you want? And she's like, I don't know.

Yeah, right. We don't. And it's not, and this is the thing, it's not that we don't know, it's that we've never given ourselves a chance to listen. And I think of it like this. Imagine when you're learning a new language, you're like, it literally sounds like gibberish, right? And it's the same thing when you don't know the language of yourself. It might sound like nothingness. It might sound like gibberish, and it's not because You don't actually know what you want. It's simply because you are unfamiliar with listening to what you want.

I think so too. And I think that to get familiar with the way that, um, our soul speaks to us, our bodies speak to us, because I know that when it's not in alignment with me, I immediately, your gut knows. I feel like your gut knows. And so are there ways? that you teach for people to start to understand the way that their soul is speaking to them, what they're, what they really want? Is it journaling? Is it, um, sitting in silence? Is it prayer? Is there anything that you teach them to do to help them with that?

Yes. All, all of the things. There's so many things. And when you were saying that, when you mentioned, you know, how much wisdom our body has, again, for the listener, for those who are the high achieving, ambitious folks, If you're anything like I was, I was like, I'm just a floating head. Like, I just experience the world between my two ears. When I remember, I mean, I'm a licensed therapist, and I remember the first time a therapist would be like, where do you feel that in your body? And I was like, what do you, what do you, I was like Jennifer Lawrence on that, you know, like, what do you mean? Like, what do you mean I have a body? And there's so much wisdom that we are missing because we don't go there, right? We are so much in our heads. And so, while journaling can, I'm a thought work, you know, I do a lot of thought work. I'm a mindset coach. So, I, I love a good awareness of our thoughts. And to your point, when you are figuring out how your truth, like your capital T truth, speaks to you, sometimes it's not always in words, right? Sometimes it is in a felt sense. It's in signs and symbols. So in the book, in the way I map out the book is the prison, the path, and the pursuit. And in the middle section, in the path, I go through essentially my freedom formula. And one of those is about, is a section called Staying with the Emotion. And a lot of that is about getting in your body and learning how to have conversations with your body, learning how to do listening sessions so that, again, if you feel like, I'm a floating head, I don't know what I want, I don't know if my wisdom speaks to me. Yeah, there's a whole system there where you practice. Here's a hack. It sounds so simple. You're going to be listening and going, what do you— this can't be good. This can't be useful. But if you are checking in with how you're feeling and maybe what you want and maybe what your wisdom is guiding you to, Simply ask yourself, where do I notice this in my body? And it's a great, it just drops you out of your head. It drops you into your body and you can start. That's just one hack to start to even tune into your body. And then of course I can, you know, we can go down the rabbit hole of, of more things from there, but part of it is just acknowledging that there is wisdom outside of what's happening between my two ears.

Yeah. I love that idea. And, you know, I was in the fitness industry for 26 years. I trained clients. In group sessions and one-on-one sessions. And it was mind-blowing to me. And I have tuned out of, there's been many a times I've tuned out of my body because I was like, I don't want to feel this pain. I'm going to just ignore it until I couldn't anymore. But I was always amazed when I would have clients that were so out of tune. with their body. I'll give you an example. I had one client that she messaged me and she said, I think I have the flu. I just, I hurt all over. It was the first time she had ever actually moved her body to where she had a little lactic acid and she was actually sore. She thought she was sick. She was actually sore. So she was just starting to be in tune with her body. I have had Clients that I would say to move their body in a certain way. And there was like, there was a disconnect from their brain to that body part and they couldn't do one movement. They couldn't even contract a muscle. And so, um, one thing I do that I, that is a powerful exercise that has really helped me to kind of get out of my head because sometimes I at night seem to be thinking my mind just starts going and going. But kind of get me back in tune with my body and relaxing is I do a meditation and it takes you through getting, focusing on body parts, literally focusing on tightening your quads and releasing it, uh, tightening your hands and releasing that. And breathwork, breathwork is powerful.

People forget like the simplicity of it. This is the thing, at least again, if anyone's like me, I will, I'll speak from the I, again, I can be incredibly cerebral and intellectualize things. And so I'm going to share a couple of things here. And I think even in the book I say, do not let the simplicity of this fool you. Like, because you think about breathwork, like, that's just such a simple thing. I'm breathing in and out, that can't be powerful. And I always say, try it, test it out, experiment, right? Because there are some things, um, to your point, when you're like, if you're overthinking and you're really up in your head, there are some things like bilateral stimulation. Grabbing your stress ball, your, your AirPod case, and like going back and forth. If y'all, if y'all aren't watching this, you know, I'm swinging my arms out side to side. Some bilateral stimulation, some tapping, doing something as simple as when you get up to go refill your water bottle, actually feel the— like this. Look how giant this water bottle is, by the way. It's like the size of my entire torso. Uh, but noticing the temperature and texture when you pick it up, like something that you're already doing. Again, for for people who have full schedules and lots of things happening, we often will avoid these kind of meditative getting into your body practices, but you can start small, start with stuff you're already doing. When you're brushing your teeth, actually pay attention to the temperature of the water, feel the sud— the fizzies in your mouth, or when you get up to go to the restroom, feel the cold and texture of the handle, right? These things, that are, you're already doing. And these, again, they, it seems incredibly simple, but what is happening behind the scenes neurologically and physiologically is the stuff that starts to rewire your nervous system and your brain.

Oh, that's so good though. That's so good because I know, I don't know if you've ever done this where I've driven somewhere and I'm like, oh my goodness, I don't even remember. I was on—

Who drove me here? Cybertruck? Yeah.

Yeah. Like in my head the whole way. And I'm like, how is that even possible?

Yep.

That, and you know, I did something really interesting. I also did this post, um, where I said the first 3 words that you see are going to be your 3 words or 3 mantra, uh, the mantra of your year. And do you know, every single person that did that exercise was like, Oh my gosh, this is totally what I'm working on this year. That's wild. And I'm like, well, yeah, we do kind of whatever we seek out, we will find. And so I love this idea that you're saying, do the things that you already do. Like, and also I like to tell people to hunt for the good and be a joy worker, like go and like notice the things that bring them joy. Um, and I love that one thing I love about your book so much is that it's not about Fixing yourself. Um, you write, well, you write the book is not about fixing yourself, but why do you feel that so many high achieving women especially have this need that they feel broken? They're like, I gotta, I need to be fixed. Something's wrong with me. Yeah.

Well, we, I think we learn early on, right? If we look out and we see something that is different than what we are, Our brain just automatically, in a protective way, like, oh, so then I must be the problem. I must be the thing. I must be the thing that gets fixed. And so I think so much gets missed in that. And I talk a lot about, um, you know, this idea that we are not a problem to be solved. We are someone to be known. And it's so, it just shifts the whole thing. But we know, even if it's not like we think ourselves as a problem to be solved, again, I think as high achievers, we look out and if we have a goal, we're working on something. We're like, whatever is in my way, I just need to fix that. And then that, now I problem solve and I go and do the thing, right? And so this is sort of flipping that on its head to consider what if there's nothing to be fixed? What if there's nothing to problem solve? Because here's the thing, spoiler alert, if we go down that fixing rabbit hole, you're gonna have that moment where you look around and you're like, why don't, why doesn't this feel the way that I thought it would feel? Well, because you, your whole process was filled with fixing things and self-loathing and condemnation, like. That is not going to get you. The destination is always going to feel like the journey. And if it's the whole worldview is, this is a problem, my life is a problem, this thing in my business is a problem, this thing in my marriage is a problem, I am a problem, the destination is going to feel that way too. And so a lot of us are trained, so it just becomes habituated throughout our life when we look at everything as a problem. To your point earlier, our brain will look for evidence of what we tell it to look for. And if we see ourselves as a problem, Your brain, you've all heard of the reticular activating system. When you're shopping for a red car, suddenly you see red cars everywhere because your brain is trained to look for the evidence it's being told to look for. So we get that little whiff or one experience where we think there's something wrong with me, I don't belong here. And then your brain says, ah, let me look for more evidence of that. And then suddenly you're like, oh, this is, I have lots of reasons to believe that there's something wrong with me. That I don't belong, that there's a problem here, right? So I just talk about what if we just let go of that worldview? What if it's possible that that is not the way? What if we are not a problem to be solved? We are something to be known. And I talk about it, the analogy that always comes to me is thinking about a vehicle. When you get a new vehicle, you're, you wouldn't like, you want to know the make and the model and the features, and you want to look at the handbook, see what it can do. You don't look at a Honda Civic and be like, why is this in the— why can't this off-road off the mountains?

Right?

You're like, no, this is not an ATV, right? But that's what we do with ourselves, right? We look about, we're like, why can't I do what they're doing? You're like, well, that has nothing to do with you. Everyone is on their own individualized curriculum plan. Get curious about you. You are something to be known. Get curious about what you have to offer. Get curious about how you work. Get curious about the talents and gifts and all the little ingredients that you have to— what can you put that together to make? But we get very busy looking, well, what are they doing? And that's how I'm supposed to do it. And I don't think I, I don't have flour and sugar. Like what, hold on. I've got like crackers and cheese. What, what is that? But I think I'm supposed to be a cookie right now. I'm just mixing all kinds of analogies. We're talking about cars and cookies and bread and—

But you know what? It makes sense, especially with today in today's age of social media. And I mean, I'm guilty of it. I have, I got, I went down the rabbit hole. The other day, I don't even know how I got on some family Instagram page where they were just the cutest fan came up on the just up in my feed. I didn't even follow them. They didn't. They don't even do anything similar to what I do, but they were the cutest family and the husband's on there on her page and her two kids and they they just and the dog and they just make reels together and just it's the cutest. thing ever and they get millions of views. And I was like, I found myself actually going, yeah. Oh, well, that, that's so cute. Well, what if I could get Johnny to finally do a Reels with me? Well, my husband hates social media. He will not get on my social media. I had to beg him to be on my podcast. And it was after 100 episodes that I finally got him to be on my podcast.

Yeah.

Um, that's not me. It's Apples to oranges, you know? And so I was like, get off here. Like, what? So I love that we have to stay what feels with what's in alignment with us, what is our truth. And the same last year, I think I listened to so many different advisors and telling me, oh, well, you need this funnel and you need this and you need that for actually, I have to admit a couple of years now. Where you need to have this and you need to do this. And I'm all about having, um, a mentor, a coach, an advisor, someone. But you have people that, that might be the right system for their dentist that they work with who has sold millions of dollars worth of things by using that funnel. But that's not right for me and it spread myself too thin. So I think this applies in so many different ways.

Mm-hmm.

And I think I love that you talk about invisible invisible prisons. Like one of the things that you talk about is perfectionism. And I know a lot of people that, that, and I mean, I'm an overcoming perfectionist where I was like, oh, it has to be just right before I will post that or do that. Um, how, when you have someone come to you who is a perfectionist, how do you start to break them out of that prison?

Yeah, I think getting curious about, because to be clear, perfectionism and excellence are 2 very different things. Perfectionism is a protective strategy. Excellence, if you're, if you just aspire to create something and you wanna iterate it until it turns excellent, that's a great, that can be a very fulfilling way to live. Perfectionism says it has to be just right in order that fill in the blank, right?

Such a great diff— Differentiator. I can't even talk, but I'm not trying to be perfect right now.

That's right. See, it would be in the message.

Let it be.

Yeah. Yeah. Because, because perfectionism is a, it hides us, right? It's like a 10-ton shield and it's a, it's, it's an attempt to say, if I get it just right, then I get to be okay. So if somebody comes to me and they're saying, you know, they're struggling with perfectionism and a lot of people now listen, if you've done this, you know, I've, Back in, in my first career, I did a lot of, um, interviewing and hiring, right, and leadership. And you would ask the question, you know, like, what's your weak, you know, is there, is there an area that you need to work on? And like their veiled attempt of making it sound nice, like, I really, you know, struggle with perfectionism and like that, you think it sounds nice, right? And, and perfect— again, perfectionism is not about excellence. It's, um, so if somebody says I am struggling with perfectionism, I will often say, What do you hope that it will give you? Like if you got it just right, if you nailed it and everyone agreed that it was perfect, what would having that give you? Right. And then what would having that give you? And what would having that give you? Right. So you can, I love to do like 7 layers deep. What would that have? What would that give you so that you can really understand what it is that you want? Usually perfectionism is some version of safety, acceptance. Approval. If I get to, if I get it just right, then I get to be safe. And so then we can just get really clear. Well, what is, we could just start cultivating whatever that is that you want, whether it's safety, approval, whatever, we could just work on that. The perfectionism was never going to get you there.

Yeah. That's so good. I love how you break it down and go deep because some people think that actually perfectionism is a good thing.

Yeah.

And what really helped me with that was when I, my whole leg became deformed and I'm like, well, screw perfect. I'd rather be brave and I'd rather be free. So I'm going to wear shorts and people might judge me for having a jacked up leg, but hey, I can wear shorts.

Yeah. The other thing I would tell people when they're struggling with perfectionism is that, um, first of all, I love to separate language, like A lot of people say, I'm a perfectionist, and I will say, you might engage in perfectionist behavior, but you are not. You are not. Right? Because it's very different. It seems it's a lot more accessible to change a behavior than to change our identity. It's like, look at who I am. So that's one thing. And then the other thing, people are often, maybe not fully consciously, but subconsciously reluctant to let go of those perfectionist strategies because they think that what they've created is because of it. So I will often tell people that every success, everything that you have created in your life, is in spite of those perfectionistic strategies, not because of it. Like, you have been carrying this extra weight of perfectionism that has actually made the process harder. But people are terrified to set it down because they're like, if I set down perfectionism, then I'm just going to be a slovenly, complacent, lazy, unsuccessful human.

No. Right.

So we have to address some of the fears underneath even letting go of those perfectionist tendencies.

Do you feel that a lot of these, the things that make imprison people like these invisible prisons that like perfectionism, people pleasing, uh, do you feel that that stems from being a feeling Of like they feel they're unworthy. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yes, it's take like those Dixie Chicks, you know, taking the long way around. Like this is that song from back. When was that? That was back when they were still the Dixie Chicks. Um, but yeah, this idea that if I just, that's why I say like, what is it that having that will give you? Because a lot of times people will get to that place. Like if everyone is well pleased with me, if I make everyone happy, if my spouse is okay, if my kids, okay, if who all the they/thems out there, if they approve of me, if I please everybody, then what? Well, then I'll know that I'm good. Then I'll know that it's okay and acceptable and worthy, right? If I get it just right, then I will believe, oh, I finally am good enough, right? A lot of it comes from this unworthiness stuff. And so I, you know, like what I talk about in the book too is, you know, I like this idea of what if you just imagine that when you were born, when you came into this world, baked into the little human baby flesh suit, into this human suit of you, was all the worthiness you were ever gonna have. Like you were, but there's nothing you could do to get more of it. There's nothing you could do to lose it. Your worthiness is just inherent. Now that in and of itself, we might spend a whole 6 months coaching on, right? Like just to get to the place of accepting that. But when you can just put over here, like your worthiness as a person, when that's just already solved for, then all the things that you're in pursuit of, your big dreams, the book you wanna write, the, the race you wanna run, the marriage you wanna create, all of that is so much more fun and so much more fulfilling when— and you're willing to go way bigger, you're willing to take way bigger risks, you're willing to put yourself out there when you know my worthiness is already solved for. I'm not trying to pursue this thing in an effort to justify my worthiness. Because again, spoiler alert, it never does, right? If the belief is I'm unworthy, just because you go out and you accomplish some incredible things, I mean, sadly, this is why we see self-harm and suicide among so many, uh, celebrities and high-achieving people. And you're like, what? They were such a gift to the world. But when all of those accomplishments were coming from the belief, I'm not worthy, and then you achieve all those things and it does— you still feel unworthy.

That way. Yeah.

That can be such a profoundly scary and sad place to be. And that's why this work is so important. Like, if you are in pursuit of something, it is It is not the thing, right? If, if you are in pursuit as a, of, of a goal or whatever it is, as an intermediary to your feeling, it's never going to serve. It's never going to serve. It's never going to give you that thing that you thought you wanted. So your worthiness, so I, I, I'm sad to report and simultaneously it's good news. That's a whole separate, that is an inside job.

It is. It really is. And that's so, um, you know, I've worked with a therapist and coach and, well, I've worked just A sponsor, a mentor. I've had, I had them all. I still do.

I was like, the gang's all here.

You know what I mean?

Yeah. The gang's all here.

A large crew. Uh, yes, ma'am. Uh, but when you break it down and you go, oh, wow, look at my, you know, my defaults, defects is what we call it in recovery and what that stems from. And when you go layer after layer after layer and you realize, Oh my goodness. All these things that I've been doing come from this feeling of needing to feel safe or feeling worthy of love, or it's wild. It, it, it, it, I think really every decision that we make, relationships that we're in and what we do with our life is based on going deep. Yep.

With, uh, yeah, that's why I call myself like a good causal coach. Like, I'm not gonna, I mean, there are strategy things, there are action things we're gonna do, but what I am very skilled at is doing exactly what you just said there. Like, we're just gonna go right to the heart of the matter and then we're gonna work on that and then the other stuff's gonna fall in place, right? When you can see, when you can get committed, when we can drink the Kool-Aid and get on board with when we know we are upset about something and we can just agree it is not the thing in front of us, right? If it's, uh, you know, kids are acting up or they're doing something and I'm feeling some kind of way and I think my Again, our default is let's go fix the problem, and we can just pause and go, okay, I'm upset. I'm having a feeling about something. Let me get into this feeling and let me see how familiar that feeling is, right? Maybe something is happening and you're like, ooh, I'm feeling rejected, right? This is— it could be something like, you know, some— a group of girlfriends went out and I didn't get invited, and I see them posting it on social media, and you're like, oof, I feel rejected. And you could, again, we could stay on the surface and be like, oh, well, let me just go talk about them, or let me go, let me call them out and confront them, or let me go talk about 'em to somebody else. Or we can pause and see, hold on, what got activated for me here? What is this feeling? Right? And is this familiar? And then we can get real, if you wanna go real deep, y'all, I'll just walk you through this. You could say, when do I remember, like, if I could go all the way back, like, do I remember like the first time having this feeling? Maybe it's in a childhood, right? Like, when is the first memory I have of feeling this feeling of rejection or abandonment? And you go there and then you get curious. When I felt that, what was the story I made it mean? What did I make it mean about me? Oh, I'm unlovable. I'm not good enough. There's something wrong with me. I don't belong. Okay. And then you make it like, this is what I, this is how, when I do forgiveness work, this is how I I like to think of forgiveness. Forgiveness is about having a moment of, I forgive myself for believing something about me that could never be true, that I'm unlovable, something's wrong with me, I'm unworthy. And then I forgive myself for forgetting what was always true about me, right? That I'm whole, that I'm worthy, that I'm loved, that my goodness remains intact. That again, as that little baby human flesh suit, all of my worth was baked into that. Like, oh, okay. And then when you feel that, you're like, oh, Okay. This feels like warm in my body. This feels, um, solid and grounded and whole. And now from that feeling, now what do I think about the thing that activated all of this? Now, what do I think about seeing friends on social media out, you know, without me? Like, oh, I hope they really had a great time. Right? It could be, you're going to totally change. So when you do the inner work, it's just a lot easier to see what are, what do I really need to get busy doing out here? And again, when we go back to one of your first questions about being burnt out and overwhelmed, when you start to do some of this work, you might easily siphon off a bunch of the extra stuff that you were doing to try to fix a feeling when you're like, oh, I've got the inner infrastructure now to just address that. And then it's just a lot easier to see what do I want to be doing out here in the world with my business, with my career, with my relationships, if I'm not trying to do If I'm not trying to get busy out there to try to have a feeling in here.

Oh yeah, that's powerful. And I was just telling, um, one of my clients yesterday, actually, um, I said, well, yeah, I know it's hard right now, but when you do the hard thing first, life gets easier. But when you do the easy thing over and over and over, life gets harder and harder and harder. So just do it, you know? So I, but there's also another thing I want to talk with you because I know we're running out of time, but you are just so brilliant and I could just listen to you all day. And I love that you talk about the arrival addiction, um, chasing the next milestone, thinking that this will finally bring peace, or maybe it'll bring fulfillment, or maybe it'll make you feel worthy or make you more lovable, or maybe, oh, look, they've made it. Now, I don't feel like I've ever arrived. I really don't. And so maybe that's my problem. Like I'm chasing the next, I, I, well, I got to go for more. Got to do more. I am a recovering alcoholic. So maybe there is more there. You know, I like there's that, maybe that disease of the more, but let, can you talk about that, that arrival addiction and how can we break it?

Yeah, it's a little bit of what we talked about, like this idea that When I get there, this thing is going to happen, right? When I get the next gold star, when I get the next achievement, that's where my fulfillment will be. The next promotion, right? This is that arrival fallacy that if I just get the marriage that I always wanted or the partnership that I always wanted, when I finally have a kid, the kid that I've been dreaming of, I've been efforting towards getting pregnant, whatever the thing is, when I get the, when I finally hit that revenue goal in my business, then Fill in the blank, right? That's the arrival fallacy. When you think that the next thing is gonna give you what you want, that's the problem. So that one I was talking about earlier is like, but, but the destination is gonna feel like the journey, right? And I like to think about that arrival fallacy and the arrival addiction. It's like the horizon.

Mm-hmm.

It's always moving, right? And this is where it can be really, um, nuanced for ambitious people because we're like, yeah, I wanna keep evolving. I wanna, like, I love a good growth edge. Like, we love being in the, you know, outside of our comfort zone. And into that stretch zone. The, again, the difference is being really clear about what do you think that it will give you? Usually a feeling, friends, right? Like you said, like peace or fulfillment. And the work, again, I'm as a mindset coach, I teach your thoughts are what create your emotions, not the external circumstances, not the promotion, not the revenue goal, not the number of followers, but a story you're telling yourself in your mind is what's gonna create the emotion. And when you can channel that and you can If you wanna feel peaceful and fulfilled, work on telling yourselves the story, building the beliefs that actually let you feel that ahead of time. And then the process en route, like when you are in the pursuit, then you get to feel that way en route. And that's the antidote to the arrival fallacy, right? Or the arrival addiction is if you can just help yourself feel, it's like an addiction, like substance addiction, right? Like I need to get that next thing or I need to numb out. We're either chasing a feeling or avoiding a feeling. That's what arrival addiction is about, chasing a feeling or avoiding a feeling. But when you just learn to be with your feelings and you learn to create the feelings that you want on purpose, then you just get to go after what you want.

That's so—

But that can be, I will, I'll just add this really quick, 'cause again, for someone listening, I imagine they're like, but if I could feel the way I want ahead of time, if I could already feel the way I think it would feel when I hit that fitness goal or I get the promotion. Then they're afraid, well, then if I already feel satisfied and fulfilled ahead of time, I won't go after the goal anymore.

Hmm.

And to that I say, if that's what you think, if you think if I stop hating my body, then I wouldn't want to lose weight, or if I stopped hating my body, I wouldn't have the fitness goal, to that I would say, then the goal is never going to give you what you thought it was going to give you. Like, if you, like, if you just wanted that goal because you thought it was going to make you feel better, that's the arrival addiction. That's the arrival fallacy that you think it's going to give you this feeling that it's never going to give you.

Well, I think that's why it's so important. Uh, like my book, Joy, Joy Through the Journey.

It was like, exactly. Yeah.

Like finding the joy. For me, I think it would be a life of suffering if you were only working out as a way of punishing yourself and that you're only going to feel better once you lose that 10 pounds or that 50 pounds, or you gain that much muscle or whatever it may be, that's awful. But when you can find joy in it, listen to your favorite music, um, work out with a friend, um, you know, take a class that you love or just go out in nature and take your dog for a walk, that then that's sustainable. Um, so you think that if there's, if there's somebody out there that's like, well, oh gosh, now I feel a little confused. I'm not sure. If my ambition is healthy or actually a form of avoidance, is this a real addiction for me? What's the one thing that they could do right now?

Ask how they feel, right? Like, that's a great way to know if, again, there's, because hear this again, for those of us who might be the rule-bound folks, you think, oh, there's a, there's a certain kind of way of doing this that makes it good, uh, ambition. There's a certain way of doing it that makes bad ambition. No, the only way you know is by how it feels. If it feels exhausting, if it feels overwhelming, pressure-filled, urgency, scarcity, then right. If if you're having thoughts like I'll I'll get to take a vacation when after we get this account taken care of, then I can take a vacation. I'll get to rest. I can finally go to my kids' Little League once I get this X Y and Z. If you're having thoughts like that, then you'll know. Oh, maybe I am. If if you're doing like the When then, right? When this happens, then I'll get to do this. Then you're like, oh, maybe there's a good chance that this is, I'm in that arrival addiction land.

Oh, that's so good. Now I imagine some of, you know, you might be listening going, well, um, I hear all this. It makes sense, but I'm a little scared that if I start listening to myself, that means I'm going to be Blowing up my entire life. What would you say to that person?

Yeah, that's exactly— I'll do— I do a lot of content around you do not have to blow up your life when you say— because people get scared, like, oh, self-honoring, if I listen to myself. 2 things. One is there's something incredibly powerful when you just start listening to yourself, even if you don't act on it, right? Like, just— and I think that's a really good way. Again, if you start— if you're trying to— somebody asks you the question, what do you want? You're like, I don't know. Also, if you tell yourself, hey, we don't have to do anything with the information right now. We're just trying to hear it from our desires. We don't, right? So that's one piece of it. The second piece is because we're so unfamiliar when somebody says that, like, I'm afraid that if I listen to myself, I'm going to blow up my whole life. It also tells me there's probably just not a lot of self-trust. Like that gives you insight into the relationship as if like the thing inside of us is like this evil. You know, mastermind that is like, aha, as soon as you listen to desire, like, I'm going to destroy your life. Instead of thinking, hey, maybe there's something inside of me whose purpose is my— is only like my highest good, right? And that all of me is on my team and that maybe that includes my desire and maybe my desire— because people are like, you know, think of the people who are like, I hate my body. Well, if I love my body, then I'm just going to be slothly and I'm only going to like sit on the couch watching Netflix and eating, you know, Cheez-Its and never moving my body ever again. Again, it, it, it's, it's as if, as if they don't believe that self-love resides within, that there's not, you know, that our truth inside is not actually for our good. And so I would say if somebody's having that, um, that fear, it's likely because they haven't had a lot of time with themselves, right? And don't, don't know that the voice of their desire might actually be gentle and kind and for our good.

Oh, that's so good. And then why, why do you think that it is so hard for successful women especially to really sit with their feelings?

Yeah, I think people in general, um, because they're uncomfortable. Like, that is the shortest answer. Like, it's uncomfortable, one. And two, honestly, here's my honest answer, is because they haven't done it. Like, if you are afraid of sitting with your feelings, it tells me you have not actually done it because one, Our emotions are vibrations in our body. They are limited. Like, that is it. Like, they— it's— and if you sit with it, like, they say this scientifically speaking, y'all, that a vibration of an emotion will last the length of a contraction. Now, I never gave birth to humans, but if you did, if any of you are listening as a woman, most— lots of them do it. I mean, I did not, but some— most of them do. And so you've felt a contraction, you've breathed through. And y'all, if you have more than one child, that means you signed up for this again. So you were like, I am willing to do something uncomfortable and feel the 90 second time-limited vibration of a contraction because of what it will give me. And it's the same thing with feelings. They, they are time-limited and they will pass, but people are terrified of feeling them because a lot of them, this is what they'll say to me, I'm afraid if I sit with it, I will be swallowed up inside of it and I'll never get out. And so that's why I have to say, if, if that's your, if that's your fear, it tells me you've never actually felt. Like the actual skill of feeling a feeling. So go check out chapter 6 of In Pursuit, Stay with an Emotion. I walk you through the steps of feeling a feeling. Many of us think our feelings, like we get caught up and we're thinking about it and we're, we think we're processing it, but we're actually thinking about it. That is not feeling a feeling. Feeling a feeling happens in our body and it is a vibration and it passes. So if you're afraid, it just tells me you maybe haven't done it yet. And so you don't know. It's not as bad as you think. So set the timer for 10 seconds. Where is this in my body? Feel the vibration of the feeling, and even for 10 seconds, and just see what, what shifts in that. And for some people, even in 10 seconds, the whole thing will pass. And then you'll be like, holy crap, this is what— so back in the day when I used to run jail diversion programs, so I was working at the intersection of mental health, addiction, and the criminal justice system. And I was working with a guy who had been in and out of prison for so much of his adult life. And he was like, hey, Jess, you exchange Uh, 40 hours a week for a paycheck. I'm just willing to exchange my civil liberties to go, you know, for like the money that I get in my life. And when he was going through recovery and he had been sober for a while and we were working on feeling feelings, and he, he had this moment and he was feeling a, a really gritty one of like guilt, and it passed. And he looked at me with tears in his eyes, 40-something-year-old man, and not tears because the emotion was painful, but he looked at me and he said, I have lost so much of my life. I have lost my freedom. I have lost my family. I have lost my kids because I was afraid of feeling a feeling. And that's all it was. That's all it was, was a temporary sensation in my body that passed on its own.

Wow.

Like, yeah, right? It's so the things that we will do to actually blow up our lives, right? Because we're afraid of feeling a feeling. So for the person who's listening, it's like, I'm terrified. Hey, you're not alone. A lot of people are. And I promise you, it's not as scary and you're not, and don't believe me. Try it. Like, don't take my word for it. Try it on. And chapter 6 of In Pursuit will help you if you're like, I don't know where to start like that. It'll walk you through it, hold your hand and walk you through how to feel feeling in your body.

Oh, that's so good. I mean, that's so good for anybody with, I mean, I think we all have some sort of addiction, whether it's to a substance or shopping or speed dating or whatever it may be. And just to feel the feeling, but our, our, we just want the quick way, the quick and easy. I don't want to feel this. I want to run from it. So that was powerful. What a powerful way to wrap this up. Uh, and of course I have so many more questions for you. Like, you're amazing.

Thank you.

I, I, I do. Um, okay. One, do you have time for one more question? Do you have time for one more?

Okay.

Um, I just love your phrase from your book, the sacred mess of becoming. Can you talk about that a little bit and then we'll tell people where they can grab your book? Yeah.

Yeah. The, oh God, this is my, I'm like sweating just thinking about this already. I, I hate the messy middle, but that's exactly why I talk about it. Um, and what I talk about in the book, the sacred mess of becoming, when I got a little bit existential when I was thinking about in pursuit, because I thought, um, like whatever created us is always in pursuit of us. Right. And so I was thinking when we're in pursuit of our creations, that's one of the ways that we can be in, in the experience of our own divinity, right? For if that language resonates you or for whatever, but like in, in experience of your truth. So I think the sacred Mess of becoming, the sacred part of becoming is it's not about the actual goal. Like I will say, I have a big fatty fat revenue goal and I'm talking about it because, and I wrote about it in the book and I was like, oh gosh, even saying that, I feel like people are going to judge me and think I'm materialistic. And no, I guess—

I loved it. I actually saw that on your story on Instagram and I was like, heck yeah. Cause you know what I did all morning? Like, I worked on tax stuff. So when I was like, yes, that's exactly what I needed to hear. So I was like applauding you.

Yes. So, and the reason I know, thank you, right? Because, because this is to my exact point that I think, I think goals are actually a spiritual process, right? Because when we set our sights on something, and again, it's something that's like something inside of me wants to. create something like we are tapping into our essence and who we are. And the goal is really about who we become in the process. It's not actually about, and that's the difference between arrival addiction, right? Versus actually being in pursuit in a really genuine, fulfilling way, which is embracing that sacred becoming because what you're going after it's about. So if I go back to my revenue goal, what I know is there are parts, and this is the part that lights me up, there are parts of me that I don't know yet. There are skills that I have. There are ways of thinking. It's like they are hiding up in my armpits in a nook and cranny I have not explored. But in going after this goal, I'm gonna get to know that. I'm gonna get to know her. I'm gonna get to know these parts. I'm gonna get to know more of me. And to me, that's what all of creation is about, being known. Like, whatever created us is— or I don't know, like, whatever your beliefs are. But I like to think it's like, this is all just a delight in getting to know.

Yeah.

what it, what we are, right? So when you set any goal, you're just like, I just get to learn more about myself. I get to, and not cognitively, I get to experientially know and become more of who I truly am. So again, I'll geek out on that question. So, but that, that's what I think it is a sacred process. And I think goals are just a way for us to experience our truth. And to me, I think that truth is our divinity.

Oh, that's beautiful. You are brilliant. I just love talking with you. Your book is This book is so amazing. And like I said, I think it's so needed, like right now. So where's the best place for people to find your book?

Yeah, the book, Amazon right now is the best way. All of the Kindle, paperback, hardcover, Audible. I recorded it myself even. It's all of the versions are on there. Amazon is the way. In Pursuit, Jessica Smarro. That'll get you there.

Thank you. Thank you so much. But, and then also tell people your website and where they can follow you, where you hang out the most on social media.

Thank you. Yeah, so jessicasmarro.com, just my name spelled out, and Smarro is S-M-A-R-R-O. I get all kinds of interesting spellings when people tag me in things. Uh, and the, the way I hang out most is on Instagram. So Jessica Smarro, it's just my name. So come follow along. And I, again, the social worker in me is like, I love to put out a ton of free content. Through the podcast, through my social media, get on my email list. I'm always doing something different and, uh, to invite people into the conversation. So, uh, connect with me in all of the ways. And, and, and yeah, if you're interested in coaching or, um, I have some exciting things coming up and new ways to work with me in 2026. So if you want to know about that, go to my website, sign up for the newsletter so that you get notified of when those things are happening.

Thank you. And if you're listening and you're on for, uh, driving or out For a walk, don't worry. I'll have all these links in the show note, show notes. And you know what? If you really enjoyed this episode as much as me, then take a screenshot. Whatever platform you're listening on, whether it's Apple, Spotify, I don't know. Maybe you're watching YouTube right now. And and tag us Amberly Lago Motivation and Jessica at Jessica Smarro S M A R R O. Again, those will be those links will be in the show notes as well. And tag us. I love. I love to see when people, uh, tag me in their stories and let me know that they're listening to it. And Jessica, thank you so much for being on the show. I know that this interview is going to be one that, uh, people are going to go back, they're going to replay, they're going to share it. Um, I know I'm going to go back and listen and take notes. Uh, even though I have all the, the questions in front of me, I want to go back and listen and take notes just from what you said. So.

Thank you.

So thank you so much for being here and thank y'all so much for tuning in to the show and making this a top 1% podcast. I wouldn't be able to do it without you. It's, it's because of your support and you downloading the show. So thank you. And Jess, I hope to see you in person soon. Congratulations again on your book. And I will talk to y'all. See y'all next week.

Amazing. Thank you, Amberly.

Thank you.