🎙️ EP12: How to Network Effectively With Investors — Before and During a… | InvestHer Podcast

Well, well, well, welcome back to this latest episode from InvestHer Podcast, and boy have we got some fun in store for you. I'm so happy to invite a dear pal of mine, Kelly Hoey, who is a former lawyer, former investor turned author, speaker, and all-around networking queen. That's why she's perfect for us to have as a guest, because if you need to know how to network with investors, well, who's a better person to tell you than someone who's written a book on it, who has done it, who's been on both sides of the table, both as a startup accelerator founder and also as an investor? Kelly has it all. And what's more, I love her frank, open, generous way of sharing her tips with us. So sit back, enjoy this really, really cool episode with Kelly Hoey. Investor Podcast is for you, the female founder who has a product, a service, or a message that that you believe in and need to get funded. Or for you, the investor, who wants to learn more about the huge untapped investment opportunity that gives you a higher return— women entrepreneurs. My name is Anne Ravanona. I'm an entrepreneur, TEDx speaker, and women's advocate, and I'm passionate about helping women entrepreneurs get funded. In each episode, we'll take a behind-the-scenes look into real-world funding tactics and strategies To help you get the funding you need faster. Let's put the fun into funding. Thanks for spending some time with me today. Now let's get started. So welcome everybody. I am delighted and thrilled to have with me my dear friend, awesome all-round person, Kelly Hoey, who is, you know, a previous like lawyer, investor, LP in funds, angel investor, And now an incredible author, speaker, and all-round queen of networking. Kelly, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me back, Anne, and it is just so lovely to hear your voice and be with you.

Oh, and I'm so excited to have you because I know that you're going to share some incredible tips with our audience on how to network with investors and just how to do everything the right way and not the wrong way, and to share some of those incredible tips from your book Build Your Dream Network. So, you know, and tell us what else you're doing that's super awesome where they can get these tips on the fly all the time. So without further ado, how about you just tell our listeners a little bit more about you? You know, how did you make this transition from kick-ass lawyer to, you know, investor, author, speaker, and networking expert? Tell us a little bit more about you so they get a feel for who you are.

Oh, well, okay. Talk about myself. I'm happy to do that. I mean, everything in my life, Anne, has really come about because of networks and relationships.

Mm-hmm.

And, you know, it's sort of funny to sort of think, hey, you're an author. It's like, I think I'm a master of career reinvention. And usually that involves tapping into, listening to, being open and curious about the opportunities that may be coming your way. Um, you know, your secret sauce may be that thing you do so casually that you think everyone does it that way, but really that's your, your magic and other people don't view the world or address problems that same way. So yeah, I kind of started life as that traditional route. You know, the parents expected me to get an advanced degree and I went off to law school cause I didn't know what else to do with myself. And, uh, somewhere along the line had a career itch and, needed to build a new network to, you know, stop that itching and satisfy that curiosity. And then that led to, you know, a lot of internal networking at a big law firm that led to an internal job change. So those who may be listening thinking, oh, the networking is just for the startups and the entrepreneurs. No, if you're an intrapreneur, if you're a career executive-focused person, you've got to network too. That's how you hear about opportunities. That's how you get work done because you can find out who's got the information, who's got the resources, what's the know-how. Became the first president of a global business network for women that was then known as 85 Broads. And that just really exposed my career and thoughts to a whole lot of different people. And as you've already noted, that's when I sort of stumbled into the startup world and angel investing and co-founding a startup accelerator. And then at some point, I sort of look back and said, what was the magic thread through all of my career? And it was this kind of way I looked at building networks and the way you sort of approached that, not in the work the room schmoozy stuff, which—

Yep.

Thankfully, that's maybe a silver lining in the time we are right now. We aren't having to deal with those business card Thrusting, schmoozy, you know, kind of individuals at events. There's one silver lining.

Mm-hmm.

But really how we can be intentional and purposeful and how we could build sort of a structure around us that is going to— I'm gonna say fortify our careers and as well as fortifying our souls so that we have the kind of people we want to be around and getting inspiration and helping them as well.

I love the way you say that, you know, intentional and purposeful structure to fortify our careers and our souls. Oh yes, hell yeah, we need to do that with regard to, you know, being a startup founder. We've got to build and create our networks to get everything done, not just the funding piece. And that's why it's so important what you're saying. And I love the way you say to fortify the soul, because hey, we're soul sisters, we're part of our Wonder Woman group, and we're, you know, you meet incredible people on this journey. And I think And it's a really important message that you're sharing on that point.

Well, it is a journey. I mean, careers are a journey, startups are a journey, entrepreneurship is a journey. You need people on that journey with you, and you don't start building it when you need it. You've got to stop and pause and say, you know, how am I behaving in this world? Am I the type of person other people want to help?

Yeah.

Do I show up for other people so they will show up for me? And that is not showing up once.

Yeah.

You know, back in the day at a cocktail party. That's showing up every single day. And that's why I sort of get really, I'm gonna say almost agitated, like, like, what are the little things you do every single day? Because that is the measure of someone you want to trust and you want to put your sort of invest your own network and social capital in, not the person who gets the pitch right once, shows up once. Like, who are you on a daily basis? Like, little acts add up to a big impact, much more so than, you know, kind of the one and done.

Mm-hmm. I love it. The little acts, you know, building it to lead to a big buildup. You have these amazing catchphrases. You're so quotable, Kelly. I love it. And like, based on your you know, wealth of experience and all the workshops you do for corporates and associations around the world and at the, you know, all the startup and tech conferences and all kinds of events and career events, what differences have you noticed, would you say, in the way that men and women network? Let's get that out of the way before we kind of go into the next round of questions because I think that's an important thing to bring up here in the scope of the podcast.

Yeah, yeah, well, and this is good because, you know, when we say, you know, Network, right? People sort of network and networking, and we, we sort of immediately kind of slide down into thinking about the activity itself. And so let's put the verb networking— can we just shelf that for a second? Let's focus on the noun, the network. Men and women have different structures of networks.

Mm-hmm.

Men typically have a very broad, shallow network So that is one that may cut across industries, titles, geography, experiences, the length of time they have known someone, the depth of their sort of experiences with that person.

Mm-hmm.

And there is strength in that network because you can start to pick up on it because it is diverse, because it has a broad range of insights, because it can travel further, because it has got this— I'm gonna say this— differences in experience and stuff in it. I mean, it may pop up new opportunities. It's a good network, that broad shallow network, for sort of sourcing ideas or spreading an idea. You think of a crowdfunding campaign, right? You want that idea to travel far. Women typically have a narrow deep network, which may relate to the length of time you've known someone, the length of time, like the proximity of relationships.

Mm-hmm.

You think about a network where you could turn to someone, you know, at 7 in the morning and say, oh my God, I need— you know you have someone you can call or email who will, who will, who's got your back, right?

Right.

You think about where you might have someone who'll give you feedback. You think about depth of experience within an industry, right? You know, like you might know the experts. So that's typically at the network structure that's associated with women. If I look back at my own career, when I was still practicing law, I had that narrow deep network.

Mm-hmm.

It was a double bind as well because it was a narrow deep network within a very thin slice of the practice of law. And when I wanted to go make a career change, I realized I needed the other network. So that's what women need to realize is that they typically have the narrow deep Which is great for immediate feedback. It's great for having, you know, that kind of trusted advisors, the friends you can turn to. But if you want to expand your career, you want to, you know, get your startup to take off, you want to— you need both networks and you need to leverage both. Now, successful men— there's numerous studies— successful men may be able to get away with the broad shallow network. Or initially, men may be able to get away with having in their careers, with their startups, just that broad shallow network. Women, to be successful, and there's increasing case study after case study, women need to have both networks.

Hmm.

You can't just rely on your 5 best friends, though you need your 5 best friends, right? You need to have that other network. So women need to cultivate both and use both and, and realize that, you know, you don't want to be sitting in an echo chamber. You know, your close friends and your family may be looking at you going, oh yeah, this is the greatest idea, you should do this. You need to have that broader network to test ideas or to carry the idea or give you a different perspective or whatever it is. So The men versus women, that's the way to look at it. And I would say to every woman listening to this, and men too, look at the structure of your network. And by that I mean sort of taking an audit. Look at who you talk to on a— or who are you communicating with? When I say talk, I mean text, tweet, post, WhatsApp, Signal, whatever you're doing.

Mm-hmm.

Who are you Zooming with? Like, who are those? Look back over your calendar, like over the last 6 months to a year.

Mm-hmm.

What are the committees and associations, societies, conferences? Like, what are you doing? And if— are you showing up for different groups of people or have you positioned yourself within an echo chamber?

Mm-hmm.

Can you add some diversity? And by that I mean diversity of experiences, views, industry, age. Perspective, everything. You know, go and find— if you're in an industry and the only people you talk to are in that industry and the only conferences you go to are the people in industry and the only volunteer work you do is with the same people in the industry, you gotta change.

You gotta get out of that. I love it. I love it. And that's such practical, down-to-earth advice about having to— like, I love the way you say do an audit of your network. see what the structure is already, and then say, okay, where— what am I missing? Where do I need to start branching out and start doing those things? And I love the way you all say, you know, don't do these random acts of networking, be very purposeful about them. And that's one of your key sayings.

Mm-hmm.

So tell us, I want to— before we get— like, as we're coming into this, I want you to tell me one fun fact, one cool fact about you, Kelly, so the people, you know, our listeners who don't know you well, or even who do, Give us a surprise. Come on, give us a nugget.

You know what I'll— you know what I'll share? I said the— my decision 2 and a half years ago to just let my hair go gray, I have to tell you right now, I have never been happier. Color my hair.

Oh, you're so right on that. I can't make that step right yet, but oh gosh, you're so lucky. Oh my God, Kelly. Oh, I wish I could, but no.

But the amount, you know, it's all everyone's choice. But you know what was interesting was the pushback that I got from a lot of people, like, you can't do that. And the number of people who then told me I was brave. And I thought, how odd that we consider, like, for women, that an act of I just find that very peculiar.

Absolutely. But then it's— it comes— boils down to, again, the societal pressures and all of this, you know, rubbish that, you know, a man can have his salt-and-pepper gray hair like Charles Clooney or George Clooney. George Clooney. But if a woman has, you know, flaunts her salt-and-pepper hair or her white hair, it's like automatically, no, no, no, it's the You know, the youth myth and all that rubbish. I mean, and I'm just so glad that you're just so authentic and just out there sharing this with us.

Well, you know, women being, you know, I always crack up, you know, investors saying women are a niche market.

I know.

We're a big niche, ladies. We're 50% or maybe even more of the population. So some of these, I want to say, attitudes towards women having gray hair or not having gray hair, whatever. Like, we're half the problem if we're half the population in terms of how we treat that and deal with it.

Yeah.

So I think, you know what, there's my fun fact about me. And I would just say, you know what, use this time to authentically decide what you want to be and embrace that and embrace the ability of other women to make their own choices and applaud them for making their own choices.

I love it. Absolutely. And embrace diversity and authenticity. And you're 100% authentic, and that's what we love about you, Kelly. All right, so let's get down to the nitty-gritty on this funding piece and on, you know, your advice for networking and fundraising during these crazy times. So how do you think this COVID-19 situation and crisis How do you think it's going to impact fundraising now? What are your thoughts?

I think it's going to have a big impact. I think investors are going to be much more focused on the diligence, much more focused on the relationships. I think there's been— I've been saying this for years— I think there's been some silly money out there in terms of doing silly things. And so my advice Want to get real practical?

Mm-hmm.

Always. This is what I would do if I was a female funder or female founder looking for funding. And this plays off things I've said before. I would start making a shortlist. Like, you don't want to do a spray-and-pray model of trying to get investors. That has always been a waste of time. Yeah, I think it is going to be frowned upon. Like, before, we were annoyed when we would get the random emails on, hey, I'm fundraising and My fundraise closes in 30 days and it's at this and this and this and do you want in and here's a link to make an appointment with me. Like, nuke that. Like, we used to delete that. Now it is like, it's a really bad signal.

Yeah.

Before it was a foolish signal to the market in terms of your sophistication as a founder. Now it's like taken it up a notch. So spend the time to figure out, right, who really would I like to have fund me? Do that research. And thankfully, you know, you in particular have got resources where, where founders can find information on funds. So make your shortlist, and then with each of those funds on your shortlist, figure out where they are in their funding.

Yeah.

Because you may pinpoint the most ideal investor, but if you found out that they're not writing checks. Your strategy to connect with them is going to be different, right? It's much more longer term. And, you know, what— where are they in their funding cycle? Because investors like VCs, just like startups, have to go knocking on doors and getting money. They're not— they don't have some magic leprechaun pot of gold that they could keep dipping into. They got to refill that damn thing.

Yep.

They have to fundraise. So find out where they are. If they do— if they're not fundraising, find out where they are in their funding cycle.

Mm-hmm.

'Cause this is gonna create the hierarchy of who you want to start, you know, prioritizing in terms of building relationships.

Mm-hmm.

Because, you know, the strategy for someone who's got capacity and a fund they need to deploy is gonna get given higher priority than someone who is at the end of their fund, is keeping their reserves to, help the people they've already invested in and has not completed their fundraising from their LPs. They've got different approaches and different timelines.

Mm-hmm.

So that's one of the things like, you know, so once you kind of get that real hierarchy and you've really got the focus, all right, these 3 funds, you know, have money to deploy, they're actively looking for investments, Then I would say start figuring out how you have a connection into those funds.

Yeah.

And your strongest and best connection is always through another founder.

Yes.

And it could be a founder that— who has been— is in the fund, or it could be a founder that knows the VCs well and maybe had been funded by them before, or it could be a founder who had Turn down the fund, whatever. VCs like to hear from founders, not someone who's just sort of generally in the market investing. Like, they— that is the strongest. So figure out— and this gets back to, you know, when we talked earlier, Anne, like, how do you show up every day?

Yeah.

And as a founder, are you showing up every day for your fellow founders?

Yeah.

Because, you know, too often people are like, oh, I don't talk to those people. I'm like, well, you're—

You should be.

You're short— that's like so short-sighted, so short-circuiting your opportunities to make relationships and get the real introductions you need. And so that's what I would do. And then, you know, assess and value, all right, who do these VCs know and how have I been treating that person who knows these VCs and how and where can I make a legitimate ask To make— to get in front of that VC to start building a relationship.

Yep.

I would say, you know, as an aside on all this, for any of the founders who are thinking, oh, I'm not fundraising now, I'm not gonna be fundraising for a year, then this is perfect for you. Start building the relationships now. Do not show up with a term sheet 12 months from now.

Yeah.

Show up now and start building the relationships. Start building the relationships, asking for mentorship, as in, hey, I see you've also invested in these type of e-commerce. I've got a question on this particular—

Be specific, 'cause I know that in your advice you always say, like, don't just do the generic shows. I know it drives you bananas, and I love it. This is what I love about Kelly, listeners. She tells you the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. So when she gets annoyed, oh, you're gonna hear it on a Twitter rant. And she's right, you know? She will show a screenshot. Okay, she'll hide the person's name, but, you know, that person will recognize part of the message they sent. And it's important because we have to educate founders as to how to build relationships and to network correctly with investors.

Listen, they're not alone. And I think there's a lot of, you know, and I'll say this from having co-founded a startup accelerator, there's a lot of advice that have been given out to founders through accelerator and incubator programs, which was, create a fancy 3 to 5 minute pitch on stage, have a fancy pitch deck, get investment.

Yeah.

And that's like BS, BS, BS, right? It's all about the relationships. Um, there are times and competitions where getting on stage and having your, you know, I want to say your, uh, Madonna moment or, you know, your Beyoncé moment of doing your fabulous, you know, stage presentation is the thing to do. But most of the times it is, you know, someone watching you over a period of time. Who are you? You know, what, you know, how do you perform under pressure? How do you take advice and incorporate it? Like, who are you? What, like, that trust in you as an individual, and that does not come from a pitch deck.

Yeah.

And, and that's only the kind of thing that kind of over time we can say, I trust this person to create and build something because I've watched them and I've been, you know, they've, they've, you know, asked for advice and they've done things. But, um, you know, kind of thinking on it is like, you know, markets change.

Mm-hmm.

As we have, have, we have seen, right? Um, you know, between, between, you know, economic, regulatory, you know, a change in government, um, you know, uh, uh, uh, whatever, like all of a sudden markets change. And so, We're not, you know, investors aren't necessarily investing in the market and the product. They're investing in the person and their ability to lead and manage and innovate and probably pivot. That's probably gonna be a big thing going forward.

Yeah.

So, you know, like, I'm thinking off the top of my head, I'm thinking of 2 female founders. One, Claire Coder, who has Hello Aunt Flo, which is a— she's a social entrepreneur based in the Midwest, and providing, I want to say, women's feminine care. That's just been her thing. She is FDA approved, her production lines. She pivoted to creating surgical masks as part of the pandemic, right? And she can now market them as FDA approved.

Wow.

Well, that's a huge huge thing because her factories where she has her other products made are FDA approved. She could do that pivot.

Yeah.

And all of a sudden now, you know, that's a, that's a whole lot better than just saying, hey, I've got, you know, masks kind of thing. So there's that. The other female founder I want to point out is Lisa Beta, who had— and I'm going to get her— it was App City Life was the name of the company originally. And I'm drawing a blank on the name of it now. Now she's based in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

Yeah.

So, so for— and I'm picking these 2 examples intentionally so someone could— if I give one that was in New York, could someone could give me the, oh, you're in New York, whatever. No, these are women who are in, you know, not your typical startup innovation markets when that popped to mind, right?

Yeah.

Innovation's happening everywhere, but they're in— so Lisa is in Albuquerque, New Mexico. She, because of asking smart questions long before she was fundraising, has a very strong, like, answer email mentorship relationship with, you know, like Joanne Wilson, you know, sort of like coveted angel investor, right?

That's the gal!

Exactly, you know, and others, like her roster of people that she can turn to for guidance. Because she, you know, watched what they were saying on Twitter. She read the articles that they were quoted in. She read their blog posts. If they, you know, were video interviewed by, you know, someone, she paid attention to it. And then she kind of synthesized that information, you know, take your critical thinking skills, synthesize that information to reach out and ask a really good question.

Hmm.

And that caused the, you know, these sort of, you know, platinum gold star, you know, investors and prominent people in the startup community to turn around and say, hey, this, this founder gets it. I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna help her.

Mm-hmm.

And, and to answer her advice, you know, whether it's on a piece in a term sheet, and not just because Lisa reached out and said, hey, can you answer this question on a term sheet? You know, she'd read their books, read their blogs, Read everything and said, I didn't see this addressed anywhere, and I don't know if you've ever encountered this unique situation. Like, ask the question they haven't answered before, and then they wanna pick up the phone. So there we go, that's a long story.

I love it, and what you've described is just so beautifully is what I always say to founders, which is about doing their investor homework, that you really have to dig deep and understand where that investor is coming from and not just see them as a checkbook on legs. That's the other thing, you know, that they're a person, that they are like wherever they are in their fund, or what are the type of— what are their interests, their sectors, and so on. And exactly like you say, most, very— I would say most investors have a blog or tend to, you know, share their opinion about stuff. So the very least you can do is read up on them, find out what are their hot topics, what their advice is. And I just love that suggestion about asking a very question to kind of hook them. And because you really need the answer and, you know, because why so many investors have a wealth of references and experience because they've seen it all. And this is what the great thing is. You know, so many first-time founders think that, like, I was mentoring a startup team this weekend and they were like, should we have an NDA like really early if we want to show our pitch? And I'm like, no, if you do that, you're just showing you're a complete rookie. You know, you gotta do it. do this, this, and this. So it's, it's, I think it's excellent advice that you're giving, and I love the way you give 2 concrete examples of Claire and Lisa to show that, you know, you've got to be smart, you've got to be prepared, and, and, and be able to pivot. Like, in both cases, they are smart women who put in the hard work, who put in the research, who've put in the time and gotten the accreditations and built up their business, and when needs be, they just know how to They know how to ask that killer question. And as you say, it's— they've built up the network in advance in both cases, whether it's they got the approval with FDA and so on. I think that's stellar advice.

And it's one of these things where someone could be sitting anywhere in the world right now listening to your podcast and thinking, well, I'm not in Paris, or I'm not in London, or I'm not in New York, and I'm not in Silicon Valley. And that's like, so what? Like, first of all, that was always the case, that through technology You have a big step up than, you know, 25 years ago or 30 years ago in terms of finding and building these relationships. You know, Lisa is a brilliant example. She's in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and she does not have, you know, the big investor community there. She— that could have introduced her to people. She built those relationships herself proactively in other markets.

Yeah. Yeah.

And because of that critical thinking, like the same skills that's making you the great founder to solve the problem in the big market you've identified, use that to figure out how am I gonna get to know X person? And you can do that from anywhere. I mean, smart investors want to hear from smart founders.

Yeah.

And that's back to, that doesn't come because you've got some fancy pitch deck.

Yeah.

So, you know, I sort of can't kind of stress that one enough. And then, like, spend the time. I mean, Lisa was probably building these relationships a year or 2 or more before she was ever thinking about asking for money.

Yes.

And so, you know, don't show up with that, hey, I'm closing in 30 days. I mean, I seriously, that's the kind of thing that you're— it's gonna fall on deaf ears. And it may be worse than that in terms of people saying I don't know who this person is, but—

I think that may have worked in the past, particularly for male entrepreneurs, you know, who use that broad network, have a quick ask and a fast ask. But I think nowadays, given that investors have more choice, I mean, it's switching. They're the ones who've got the decision-making power, so they know where they can put their money and whether they're going to reinvest X amount in their current portfolio, or they're like, okay, I'm willing to take a bet on this Right. But as you say, they're gonna do much more due diligence. They're gonna do much more homework on you. So—

Well, it was when there was so much silly— And the time is important.

Yeah.

Yeah. I was gonna say, when there was, as I said earlier, as you noted, you know, sort of silly money that, you know, we could look at some investors as checkbooks on legs, which is so much nicer. I would say, you know, ATMs. Like, so many founders approach an investor like an ATM. And it's like, you know, like, there was some silly money out there and silly stuff going on.

Yes.

silly suggestions made to founders of what to do, and you— that we've got the big reset button on that. And I think if, if this is about relationship building, this is where female founders can excel.

I agree.

And this is where we go back to, all right, work your inner close network to figure out how you can tap into their and your own broad shallow network and start strategizing on a Personalized, customized outreach for every single investor. None of them should get the same type of communication. This is not like, oh, one size fits all. Yeah, everyone's different. Everyone's fund's different. Spend the time. You know, you may think that that's, oh my God, this is going to take time. You know, quality over quantity.

It's an investment.

Yeah, yeah, quality over quantity. Like, Exactly. If sending 500 emails rocks your boat, well, you know what, good on you, but sending 2 or 3 really good ones is gonna pay off bigger dividends.

Exactly, exactly. So now, what surprises you, Kelly, about the current funding situation, and what doesn't surprise you, given what we've talked about, the context of COVID-19? So what surprises you and doesn't surprise you?

You know, I wanna say the female founders stepping up and dealing with the situation doesn't surprise me. I think female founders have always been extraordinarily resilient.

Yeah.

And imaginative and done more with less. So seeing female founders excel right now, that doesn't surprise me. I'd say it's, What'll be interesting is to see what funds come through and who and where, you know, kind of limited partners put money going forward. And, you know, I'll be honest, I'm quite delighted with some of this reset because I think there was a lot of sort of growth at whatever— like at whatever cost.

Yeah.

And, you know, companies without business models. And you know what? Let's get back to fundamentals.

Exactly. Get back to first principles. That, like, that's exactly what Anya Novitsky says from, from Volée Capital in London. Like, she's just got back to the very first principles of venture capital from the very beginning, and where you treat your entrepreneurs as equal partners, and where there is respect, and that you will never give them, you know, a dud term sheet, or you'll never try and do them over. That this is like a partnership that's built over long term and about trust. And that's what I like. And you're saying the same thing, get back to first principles. And I love the way you say it is a reset because I totally agree. I think this is— the time is now for us to shake up the funding system and just stop doing things the way we did in the past. I think it's a great opportunity for—

Well, and shake things up with entrepreneurs in terms of how they focus on funding their businesses. I remember a conversation I had with a female founder based out of Toronto, and this was a couple of years ago, where she called me because she was agonizing. And I'd met her through the Canadian Digital Media Network, and she'd been agonizing on her fundraise and the challenges with it. And we sort of walked through, and I finally said, why are you doing this fundraise?

Mm-hmm.

And it was like the shame, the shame of being bootstrapped. And I'm like, Timeout, right? You own your company when you're bootstrapping, you're making money. Like, anyway, so we went through her fundraise and sort of what was realistic and the timeframe and what it meant. And I said to her, realistically, this is going to take— even though you've sort of half started, and when I say half started, she wasn't spending her full time on fundraising.

Mm-hmm.

I said, if you're going to do this properly, you're going to do fundraising full time. So you've got to step out of running your business. And you got to do this and you got to do this. And it's probably going to take you at least 6 months, you know, from when you actually, you know, I'm gonna say you get the term sheet, you go through the diligence, and someone actually puts money in your bank account.

Yeah.

So I looked at her and I said, so if that's the case, tell me, because it was a startup making some money. I said, 6 months of business development, how much money would you make in 6 months if you just focused on business development? And she told me, she gave me a number. And I said, that's pretty funny. It sounds like your fundraise. Like, why are you doing this?

Wow.

Right?

Yeah.

So that's the other thing. Understand, like, sit there with some sticky notes and say, am I fundraising because someone else has told me this is a good idea? Or am I fundraising because, you know, I actually do have the next Apple computer that needs investor money? You know, to quote my friend Ray Walia from the startup community in Vancouver, Your, your best investor is a paying customer.

Yes.

So this is the time. Focus on the paying customers. Grow the paying customers. Don't think there's this magical unicorn of an investor. Like, if we reset that one, Anne, God, I'll be happy.

Oh yes. Oh hell yes. I'm so glad you say that. I'm so glad you say that because, you know, raising the big bucks, it's not for everybody. It's not necessary. And I think that women feel this incredible huge pressure to do it and to play the game that way. And that's where it's important, like, they need to take stock and say— as you love the way you give that example— like, why are you doing this? Is this to fulfill some strange expectations that you think other people have? You know, again, coming back to your previous point about your career choice in the beginning, like the pressures of, like, you know, to please your parents. Like, we all have been there and done that. So, you know, to take a look, long hard look at yourself and say, is this type of fundraising for me? Or what are the other things in the funding menu, in the sources of funding menu, that I can look at. What are the bank loans that I can do that I will be comfortable and able to repay? What are some grants that I can get that are research or innovation linked or linked to my product or service? What may be a crowdfunding campaign that, yes, will take 3 months, but it builds my network, it builds my, you know, it validates my product or my idea or a segment and helps me gain traction and ambassadors who who love my brand. So I think that's really good advice to kind of say, just take a long hard look and say, like, do you really need to raise money and can you do it another way? And I love the way you say the best type of funding is a paying customer. Totally agree with you, it really is. And it's like pivoting, saying, right, what's the best way to get to them this time round? What is it? How are their needs changing given this COVID crisis? And what do you need to do? What can you what strings can you pull on in your business, whether it's the go-to-market strategy, you know, whether it is in your offers that you're giving to your clients at this point in time, whether it's like the terms you're giving them for paying and spreading out the costs as well, because everybody's going to be looking at their budgets tightly.

Right.

And even managing expectations of working with the big corporates, because if you partner with the big corporates and say, you know, they're also going to be taking and keeping an eye on their budget. So if you go in with like the big $100K proposal, they're gonna I'll be like, whoa, Anne, relax the head. We're not into doing that now. As I said, in the real Irish way, relax the head. It's all about, you know, okay, let's do this project for $20K, or let's do this $15K, and then we can build it. Let's do a couple of these small ones. You test me, you try me, and build up relationship. Get in, get in, get in the small door, right? Build up that relationship over time.

And that's such a good strategy right now because, I mean, I would have said I've said this before now, but I think it's especially true right now. Like, asking your network and asking people, like, tell me when someone says, how are you? Or what can I do for you? What— give an answer that does not involve money.

Yeah.

Because right now, that's like, you know, everyone, everyone could use some more money. I mean, if you were interviewing Warren Buffett right now and you asked him if he could use some more money, of course he'd say he could use some more money because He's really good at deploying money.

Hmm.

So more money to buy some companies, he'd probably be really happy about that. So all of us can use more money, and at any point in time, we could always use more money. So go to your network and say, what else do you need? And, and is there something specifically like, I am looking for— I want to know if somebody has done— I'm switching up my e-commerce site, I need a new provider for Like, ask and like give them something that they could like sink their teeth on and help you. And it may be an incremental step towards that bigger thing you're trying to achieve, but like go for that. Like, go for that. And every day, if you can do that, you're a step closer and you're a step closer and you're a step closer.

Yes, I love it. It's those baby steps that when you add them all up, you know, you really move forward, forward, and they actually help you to build up the relationship. in a really strong way and also to build momentum, you know, especially in these times when things are going to be flat. For some people, they're like flat out, they're super busy, but for other people, they're like, what am I going to do with my days? How do I get out of bed and stop looking at Netflix? I'm so stressed, I can't even think straight, you know, or where's my ice cream?

Where's my ice cream?

You know, I think there's lots of people who are in those situations and hey, we've all been there and that's okay to have a few of those days, but you know, get back to the business because that's how you can Change the world. So now let's get into the nitty-gritty on the key dos and don'ts, Kelly. How should women entrepreneurs, the key dos and don'ts, oh, come on, give us the warts and all when networking with investors. I love it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, first of all, like, don't send spray-and-pray emails, right? Don't hire someone else to do your fundraising for you unless you're like a Series D or E or way down the line. At your seed and early stage, do not hire someone else. Don't, you know, I want to say seek out, I want to say publicity too early. And I say that because I see too many founders, male and female, wasting time spending money on PR and publicity. Sorry, PR and publicity folks. Like, no, no, that's a waste of your money early on.

Yeah.

There's a lot you can do on your own and, you know, tools you can use. And you really want to be focused on building your business as opposed to having some PR firm sending around You know, hey, do you want to talk to our female founder? She's a female founder. She's a female— like, you know, sorry, I want to hear what you're building. And if you're worried about your PR, your personal PR and brand, you're not building your company.

Yes.

So it's bad signaling to investors. So, you know, kind of don't do it. Personalize every outreach, you know, really customize it. Build the relationships before you need them.

Yes.

Do not send emails that say, hey, I'm closing in 30 days and these are the terms. Terms are decided by investors, not you. So, you know, your valuation, your terms, the investors are gonna decide that, and your lead investor is gonna decide that. So don't send those emails. I want to say get innovative on your things to do, get innovative on your— or on your business models, and start seeking advice from other people where you've seen interesting things that they've done. Ask them about it. That's a great way to network with someone.

Yes.

Hey, why'd you pivot to this? Wait, why'd you do this? I'm gonna say big, big, big do: start building relationships with other founders. If you have not prioritized that, change up your game. And I don't care, you know, if you're like, oh, but they're a competitor. Whatever that shows you there's a market and an opportunity, get to know them.

Yeah, absolutely. And check and see what they're doing, what's working, what's not working, and what's working for them, and see what apply to your business? You know, you don't have to reinvent the wheel. This— I love the way you're saying that, and I love the way you say reach out to those female founders. And like, even a few years ago, Kelly, when I set up Global InvestHer and I started to interview great women leaders for the Trailblazing Women series on HuffPo, and Kelly was one of those wonderful ladies. Yes, yes, yes. And I remember I interviewed I interviewed, for example, Sarah Wood, Sarah Wood from Unruly, and she's gone on to sell her business for like 176 million cool bucks, so that's very nice. And Sarah was a lady that I interviewed, and when I was going to create our first InvestHer meetup in London, I started reaching out to all my London contacts, and including Sarah. I said, Sarah, do you have any recommendations? I need a space to host my very first meetup. Have you any ideas where I could look? And just because you know the London scene, she's like, you come and do it in my HQ. And their HQ is so cool, and it was just an amazing place. I was like, wow. And that's just— I gave a perfect example, Kelly, to exactly what you said about building relationships early on, and number 2, being specific in your ask. And, you know, I didn't say I want your space. I said I want advice. Where that was, I really did. I didn't necessarily need it from her, you know.

And you emailed her with a specific ask as opposed to saying, hey, can we chat? I'm working on something. Do you have 15 minutes?

Yeah.

No, tell me what you need. Tell me what— you know, I've lived in New York now since, what, 1998? And this is where my New Yorker comes out, where I'm just like, what? Like, direct ask. Don't— like, because, you know, someone may say, oh my God, I've got some ideas. Let's jump on the phone. Like, let the other person decide what the communication is. So that may be one of my other dos right now is do let the other person take control of how they give you the answer.

Yes.

Don't set up the email with a date. Hey, it would be great to chat with you for— here's a day I'm available to get on a Zoom with you. No, ask your question and let them decide. The person who you are imposing upon for their time, their reputation, their resources, their know-how, their expertise, maybe their network, let them decide how they're going to give you the answer.

Very good advice. Very good advice. So how— what would you say needs to change, Kelly, in the funding ecosystem moving forward? You talked about a reset. So if you had a magic wand and could reset the funding ecosystem, how would you see it changing?

Women realizing how empowered they are.

Mmm, I love it. Tell us more. Okay, tell us more as to why that would make a huge difference.

Well, you know, we're more than half the population. We make the most significant decisions with respect to purchasing, whether it's personal and/or business. So, you know, this is where I look at other women and say, well, where are you spending? You know, we all wring our hands. You know, I'll say this as an author, we wring our hands, you know, and I have people who do this at, you know, book events back in the day, and they'd wring their hands on the demise of the local bookshop. And I'm like, No. So stop shopping books on Amazon. It's real simple. Here's how we solve the problem. So if every woman now would look at their purchases, right? This is not just about women like me showing up with a checkbook and investing in early-stage companies. This is every single— who are your suppliers? Who are your vendors? Who are you referring work to?

Yes.

If women changed that.

Yes.

You know, if we want to go back to an early question, if we wanted to Mimic a behavior of men. That is one to do. When someone says, invites you to do something like be a speaker or be a panelist and you're not available, have your roster of women that you can refer them to. Like, here's the experts, you know, here's the experts I know, right? Or someone says, oh, I'm looking for— you can go, here's 3 people. And you know what? Refer work and refer business. You know, I would say refer them to the best People. But be cognizant, if you yourself are not referring work to other women, if you are not buying women's products and services and you're sitting there wringing your hand on the, you know, oh, it's too bad that women entrepreneurs aren't succeeding, look in the mirror. You're the problem.

I love it. Absolutely. Hell yes. High five, high five, high five, high five, high five, high five, high five. I mean, everybody, listeners, if you could see us, we're doing high High fives over the Zoom. Totally, totally agree with you, and it's one of the things that I want to help move things forward on, is that as well, is to help women identify other women-led businesses. There are quite a few directories that I've discovered already out there, so I'll probably start a blog post just to say, hey, here's where you can start, and I want to see how we can help on that particular issue as well. So what would be your favorite fundraising resources for founders? And tell us, of course, your resources, of course, Kelly, included in that list. So the best resources that you would share with founders on funding?

Well, I mean, there's obviously your website, The Global Investor. That's the good one. Like, without a doubt. I would say one that I would really tell female founders to go and look at, it's the website F6S, f6s.com.

Yeah.

So it's, yeah, F6S. So yeah, anyway, and that is the largest— that website is sort of the aggregation of the largest number of sort of accelerator incubator programs, contests, competitions, all that kind of stuff.

Mm-hmm.

And you know what, go and use that resource. And in particular, here's how I would suggest— yeah, you can find out about accelerator programs and stuff like that, but let's look at situations of not giving away your equity. You know what, there's a time to have that fancy, you know, pitch on stage and whatever. Go and figure— use that website to find out where the free money is. Is there a competition? Is there a competition like a pitch competition? There's a cash prize at the end. Well, you know what, there's something worth rehearsing your, you know, onstage pitch for— some free cash.

Yeah.

So that is a really great resource in terms of finding things that you may not find, you know, on other sites. And, you know, no point in, you know, you or I listing all the competitions. FSuccess is doing their job. No, they did so brilliantly. They're doing it, so just refer them. And they're, I would say, some really good guys who are very inclusive and built very inclusive startup communities in the UK. So that is, I think, a really good resource. I think Arlan Hamilton. She is often highlighting and pointing out things. So in terms of, in terms of that.

Just for our listeners who don't know Arlan, Arlan is the founder of Backstage Capital. She's also a speaker. She's just all-around awesome, and she's very much focused on funding diverse founders, so LGBTQ, founders of color. She does an incredible job of that. And, you know, I think she's raised her second fund. She started off with $2 million, now she's raised $26 million, and she's invested in over 100 diverse founders. And not only that, she really walks the talk. I remember, I think it was a year or two ago, she, you know, put up $10,000, $15,000 of her own money, and she just, in small $500 Dollar donations and said, okay, if you want $500 to help you move to the next step in your business or whatever it is that you need to do, ping me, let me know why you should get it. And she gave like $15,000 away of her own money just like that to help those startup founders who were finding it hard to get money. So, I mean, she's a great person.

Yeah, and she's, you know, she's a great role model because, you know, it's not like she was born with like the silver spoon in her mouth. She has through research, strategic focus, networking, her own self-education, gotten herself where she is.

Exactly.

So, you know what, go and exhibit her qualities to take your startup for. But I think she's, you know, a great one. Cheryl Dorsey, who has got a publication, The Plug, that is for the Black innovation community. That's, that's a great one. Powder Keg, which is a startup support and innovation system through— I'm gonna say in the middle of the United States.

Yeah.

But again, communities that are somewhat overlooked, they, you know, the different and new resources. I mentioned the Canadian Digital Media Network before. They have a great Fierce Founders program for female founders, which is worthwhile to look into. And they support 20, I think it's 29 innovation hubs across Canada. So there's, you know, there's another one, the Innovation Collective. out of Idaho. Am I getting that right? I think I am. Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. Yes. In terms of, again, like, they may not exactly have all the resources that you need as a female founder, but it may start sparking ideas for you to think, oh, maybe there's something like this where I am. You know, I am not— hey, Kelly, I'm not in.

No.

Canada or Idaho or, you know, Indianapolis. But go and look and then start searching and saying, right, where are there communities like this where I am? And also realize that, you know, take a look at the programming because, you know, we've been so stuck in a Silicon Valley rat race kind of hustle, you know, BS model.

Mm-hmm.

There's people building amazing communities and providing resources In different ways, and we need to embrace those.

I love it. And I think that's the way of the future, that this whole COVID-19 crisis is making everybody pivot to virtual events. I know Kristin Nitim, I don't know how to pronounce her name, that you told me about, you know, who did the Haiti Tech Conference Summit and who raised over $200K in pitch competition money. I mean, hey, you want to know how she did it? She's just so awesome. She's moved so much further since then, but You know, it's just incredible to see, you know, she has a series of events in Haiti and around the world that were tech events, and now they're going virtual. She's just done her, you know, her summit for like a couple of weeks ago, and she's gonna do some more stuff. And then she shares her, her knowledge very freely too. So I love the way you say that diversify is a good way to summarize our conversation today. Diversify your network. Diversify your asks, but also be specific about them, and diversify where you're looking for the information. Open up your mind and be open to more, more sources of inspiration. I love those, those key tips. And so last but not least, Kellie, where can our listeners find you and connect with you if they want to know more about Build Your Dream Network, about your virtual water water coolers about your online streaming all the time that I'm gonna be on really soon, like in the Twitter and livestream. I mean, you know, Kelly is awesome. She's, she's, she's pivoting. She walks the talk, and she's like doing so many super cool ways to get her knowledge out to you, to help you change your career, to help you fundraise, to help to build that network for the future. Where can we find you?

Oh, so over, over on Twitter, @JKHowie, and that's That's H-O-E-Y. My website is jkellyhoe.co, and on there you'll find links to my blog, to the podcast, to YouTube, and all the other places. So that's probably the best, best place to find me.

Oh, and Kelly is a prolific, prolific communicator, so she has, you know, incredible blog posts And really great. She always— you always give some great resources across. Like, look at that, I just asked her, list off a few resources, boom, the list was like endless. Like, that's Kelly. And you know, you're very generous with your knowledge, and thank you so much for, for being with us. So my final question, which is my favorite one, how can we put more fun into funding, Kelly? How can we put more fun into this?

Be purposeful.

Yes.

Be purposeful. You know what? When you know that, you know, that online order you placed went directly to a female founder, that makes it more fun.

Yes, I love it. And again, that's something that Kelly does. She walks the talk. If you check out her Twitter and so on, you're always promoting female founder companies, and thank you so much for doing that, Kelly. That's a wrap. I'm so glad to have you with us. Thank you so much, Kelly. I really appreciate it. I think our listeners are gonna love listening to you. Catch Kelly's podcast. You wanna hear her Build Your Dream Network podcast. So she gives incredible tips on networking and, you know, she interviews the best people as well. But you should hear it. I mean, I love just listening to the sound of your voice, Kelly. It's just so engaging and you grab us.

Thank you.

You know, those wonderful snippets of nuggets of knowledge. Thank you.

Thank you. This has been such a pleasure.

Take care. Thank you for listening to InvestHer Podcast. Don't miss more great funding tips and insights by subscribing to the podcast on Apple or your favorite podcast host. And while you're there, I'd love you to rate and review the show. We'd love to hear from you. So So if you'd like to send in some questions, interact with our guests, or suggest other great people we should feature, join our community on the Flick InvestHer group or send us a message on investherpodcast.com. Want more great resources for female founders about funding? Check out our InvestHer Academy at academy.globalinvesther.com. I'm Anne Ravanona and look forward to having you with us again for our next episode. Let's put the fun into funding and get more women entrepreneurs funded.